The Dr. John Delony Show - Dad Slept With My Wife’s Mom (It Ruined Everything)

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

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How can we choose joy over resentment after my father's affair with my wife's mother has complicated our relationship? Wow! Is your dad married at the time? Both parents were, yeah. Oh, even more. Wow. I don't get surprised very often, but this is a new one.

What up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Delaney show, taking your calls on mental and emotional health. It's a new year, so habits, marriages, kids, everything. Whatever you got going on in your life, I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. If you got going on in your life, I'll sit with you and we'll figure out what's the next right move. If you wanna be on the show,

give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291, or go to johndoloney.com slash ask, A-S-K. Let's jump right to the phones. We have a couple on to start today's show. Let's go out to Miami, Florida. Let's pick up James first. What's up, brother James? Hey, Dr. John, how you doing, man? How's everything? I'm out to Miami, Florida. Let's pick up James first. What's up, brother James? Hey, Dr. John. How you doing, man? How's everything? I'm doing all right, man. Living the dream.

Running a scam called a podcast. All right. Let's bring on. Is this your wife, Lily? Yes, sir. All right. Let's bring on Lily. Lily, you there? Yes, I'm here. How you doing? I'm doing great. All right. So, Yes, I'm here. How you doing? I'm doing great. All right, so James I picked you up first so Dudes first today go go for it. What's up? So our question I'll start with our question and then just get kind of give you some backstory So our question is how can we choose joy over resentment after my father's affair with my wife's mother has complicated our relationships? Wow, yep with my wife's mother has complicated our relationships. Yeah! Wow! Yep.

You said that. Do you ever watch the show Dexter? A couple times, yeah. Yeah, I think you're that guy. You just said that so chill. How do we choose joy over resentment after our parents blew our lives to smithereens? Yep. Yep. It's uh, we're kind of that couple that, you know, we kind of have that nervous laughter going anytime something crazy happens, you know? Yeah, that's me. My wife has, it gets real quiet and I laugh. And so it's, it's made for not super fun over the years.

Okay. It's not about me. Yeah, man. So, I got so many questions. You just talk and I'll interrupt you. Go for it. Okay. So, my wife and I have known each other for about seven years. You know, we started out as kind of casual acquaintances.

We met at the church that I grew up at. So we met through church and then about four years ago, uh, we had a family member of mine pass away unexpectedly. And, you know, it was, it was kind of a big shock. And, and so my wife at the time, of course, we were just friends, you know, she was at the funeral and to me, that meant the world because it was, you know, she didn't actually know my family member. She just was there cause she knew I was hurting, you know? So what that made me do is, you know, the wheel started kind of turning that, you know, Hey, if she's there for me in my

low moments and we're just friends, you know, how much more is she going to be there for me in the hard times if we're together? You know what I mean? Oh yeah. The funeral love connection, right? It happens all the time, right? Not really, but in this case, yes. Yeah. So, so, you know, and, and that proved to be a little bit of an understatement as the next couple of years unfolded. But so basically, you know, as we fast forward a few months, my dad was volunteering at that church that, that I grew up at and her mom got a job there. So she, she, you know, became employed.

And so, you know, the next few months went really well, you know, my wife and I had, you know, a really, really great relationship. You know, everything was, was, and we still have a really great relationship, but, you know, as, as time kind of went on, we started kind of noticing. Well, wait, hold on. When did y'all get married? So we got married. We got married about a year and a half ago. Okay.

All right. So like four years ago, you're at a funeral. You're like, I know I'm sad, but man, she's really pretty. And she's like, man, I'm going to go support him, but he's kind of hot. And then y'all dated for a year and a half and they got married. So we we dated for about a year and a half. We were dating for about a year and a half and then got married? So we dated for about a year and a half. We were dating for about a year and a half when all this kind of went down.

Okay, so y'all were not married yet? We were not, we were not. Okay, all right. So y'all are dating, it's pretty serious. And then your dad, is your dad married at the time? Both parents were, yeah. Even more, wow. Okay. Yeah.

So then your dad's volunteering at this church, he's married to your mom. Lily, your mom rolls into town and gets a job at this church. I made it sound like your mom's like the bad guy here. She's not, but I mean, everybody's a bad guy here. But your mom's working at the church. She's, is she married to your dad?

Yeah, yeah, even now they're still married. Even more awesome. And so then what happens? Yeah, so we're, so about a year and a half into us dating, you know, they, their relationship, you know, they meaning my dad, her mom kind of got real close. And so we all kind of started noticing something was off. Uh, and so they, at one point came to us and literally kind of told us point

blank, you know, without even trying to conceal it, you know, Hey, here's what's going on. And at first it was just what in the world, you know, like this is totally just, you know, it's kind of like a middle finger to us a little bit, you know. This one, this is the double bird. This is both hands. Yeah. This is like, but they came to y'all and they didn't say, did they say, oh my gosh, we've like fallen for each other. We had a hookup or they came to y'all and we're like, no,

we're together. It was, it started out emotional. And it was more kind of presented to us as, Hey, here's the feelings that we have. You know? And then, you know, that, that only lasted probably about two months or so. It eventually escalated into more than just the emotional. And then it came to a point where, you know, her mom was just overcome with, you know, guilt and and regret for what you know, they kind of put everyone through and so her mom is the one that called it off and

Abruptly said this is it not happening anymore They're having like an out-in-the-open affair, right Does she keep her job at the church? No, they, they, they both left. So they were both let go. Okay. And so then they were like, that's still cool. And then did your mom stick around? So they, they're not sticking around. No. So she, she left. This is all kind of within the last couple months, but my mom is on the out. Okay, so your mom and your dad are getting divorced. Lily, your mom and your dad are

sticking it out. Correct, yeah. They're going to therapy, working on each other, trying to figure this thing out. And then somewhere in all of this, y'all two are like, you know what we can do to make this more awesome? Let's get married. Yep, trust me. Like I said, we kind of laughed through the, the hard time. So we were kind of making jokes about how, you know, it was, uh, we were kind of like step brother and sister, you know, dude, you got to, man, you got to, you got to laugh

through it. I guess, you know, All right. So again, I don't get surprised very often, but this is a new one, so congratulations on that. So how can I help you right now? Yeah, so where we're at now is, you know, kind of when everything was kind of going on, that's when our relationship, of course, started coming under the microscope and people were starting to say, you know, I had family members kind of saying, hey, you know, why are you bringing Lily around the house? It's disrespectful to mom. And, you know, I had one of my longtime friends texted me when, you know, when they

found out that we were getting married and choosing to start our lives together. You know, the text that I got was that, you know, James, you're being selfish and, um, you know, you need to take some time to really think about what you're doing. And, you know, James, you're being selfish and, um, you know, you need to take some time to really think about what you're doing. And, you know, I, I'm totally cool with it, man, cause I, I, I will defend my wife to the end of the earth. You know, I, I will defend our relationship to the end of the earth. So I learned that kind of the hard way that, Hey, I've never been more sure. We've never been more sure about anything in our lives than us starting our lives together and getting married. So kind of where that brings us to today and where we would like some assistance is we're

kind of in that mid-20s age range where a lot of our friends are getting married. A lot of our, my sibling just got married a couple months ago and you know seeing how the families kind of interact with each other and you know the mother-son dance and all of that you know we can't kind of help but feel a little bit resentful you know toward we kind of you know weren't able to have that and haven't had that yet I should say so just trying to figure out like what are the actionable items that we can take to you know maybe conversations that we need to have or that sort of thing to try to you know build what we can, you know well This isn't a part of my final answer but here's just an aside

if a friend Texts you A long serious text message about their thoughts of your character they are not your friend okay so you immediately opt out of me carrying what you have to say if you don't show up at my front door you don't call me okay on the way to work this morning I sent a text message to an old, old friend that said, call me. And they called.

We talked as I drove into work today. It wasn't a long text message. Okay? So that's number one. If they truly were invested and think you're doing something wrong, that's a conversation you have in person together. So as people begin to lob text message grenades, I really don't care Right. You're just you're just showing oh you're you're you're out, right? So your voice doesn't matter if somebody wants to come over to my house or a close friend calls me because they live in another

State where they're like, hey, we got to talk dude. I'll hear that all day long and take that wisdom It's that's number one number two Y'all decided to get married in the middle of a hurricane. So by doing that, there's no judgment, no right or wrong, but y'all, that meant y'all made choices to not participate in other parts of this fantasy picture that young married couples have. Like the mother son dance or whatever. So some of that is just being both bummed out and knowing, yeah, we chose that.

It just is what it is. The third part is, have you sat down, like, does your mom accept Lily? Yeah, so that's part of it. So she, their relationship has really grown, let's say over the last year and a half since all this went down. Amazing. Which, you know, thank God for, for sure. You know, um, a lot of, like kind

of when all was going down, there were times where, you know, I, I would say things to my family, like, Hey, you know, Lily doesn't feel like you guys like her. She doesn't feel accepted by you guys. and kind of the answer that I got back was well I see why she'd feel that way you know what I mean and it was kind of well you know I would think it'd be more of a no why would she think that you know that sort of thing but they have grown a lot like let's say over the last few months. Well I'll give them credit they were like no no no we're actively excluding her of course she feels that way right so at

least they didn't try to gaslight you and make you feel crazy. Lily, is it weird being around his mom? Definitely, yeah, I'd say so. With his mom and his siblings, yeah. Okay. How have you felt through all of this, Lily? It's been a roller coaster of emotions, to say the least.

It's definitely been chaotic and it's kind of you're seeing this train wreck, but you can't really control any part of it. So you're just kind of sitting there and be like, well, okay, I guess that's happening now. That's a choice. But let me push on that because you can't control the train wreck, but you can control whether you stare at it, whether you're an earshot of it, whether you run into the aftermath of it all. You know what I'm saying? Like y'all, James, your dad, Lily, your mom made a choice and the choice was

to blow up their families. And that explosion came with smoke and ash and downed structures everywhere. Like that happened. and ash and downed structures everywhere. Like that happened. But if y'all go back to those same blown up structures, wanting what was there before, which was full family support and mother son dances and dinners around a fire, like that's on y'all. Cause y'all going back to a thing

that you know doesn't exist anymore. Totally. And so you get to be sad that those things don't exist, especially since your dad and your mom blew them up. But then y'all also made the decision to get married. And so y'all have to make that grownup decision, which is James, you tell your family like she's a part of our life and she's not her mom. And she's not dad.

And so I'm going to ask y'all to treat my wife with respect and Also your family sounds like they're the kind of person who's of the character that says Yeah, but we're gonna need a minute And I think there's some there's some both and there Lily. How is James around your dad or your mom? I Think that relationship is really good. I think because my mom was very Repentant immediately afterward. I think that's kind of going back to where James' dad is more so doesn't see where he went wrong.

He doesn't see where the sin was. And his only regret is that he could have done it better. What? Correct. So that's the hard part where we deal with resentment because it's how can we move on from something that you don't see is wrong in the first place? Yeah, but guys, I would not, he has cashed out his vote in my life. If I'm y'all. He's cashed out. Not only did he blow up your lives, but he continues to make y'all feel like the crazy

ones. That's a great way of putting it for sure. So like, by virtue of his behavior, like he's out. You don't get a vote, dude. And so I'm not even going to give him like, basically, I'm not gonna wake up every day and there's a cinder block by my bed that just says dad's idiotic decisions and his refusal to take accountability for his actions. I'm not gonna pick that brick up and carry it around all day. Forget that. I'm not carrying that. And I get to be sad.

I get to be sad that he blew everything up and then I've got to live in the aftermath of it all. Yeah, that's really good. And I can feel compassionate for my mom that every time my mom sees my wife, she sees the resemblance of the face of the other woman, right? I mean, all that's true. And I would still think it's right to ask your family members to act like adults and

treat Lily with dignity and respect and to treat her as a separate entity than her mom. And I don't know how I mean mean, maybe y'all can navigate this. I think it's worth the conversation at some point that, hey, there will come a day in our life when we have a new kid or whatever. You're going to see this woman again, mom. Yeah. Well, that's part of the irony too, Dr. John, is, you know, when it was all kind of happening, you know, my mom kind of shared with me that, you know, she kind of went to therapy and, and you know the person that she was talking with kind of told her hey well the good news is you

know you're not gonna ever have to see her again. I was kind of like listen doctor you're the doctor here you're I I'm not a psychology expert whatsoever but I'm telling you right now that was probably not the best advice. Well you were were like, I'll hold my beer mom I can make this weird for us all I'm gonna marry No, I mean, here's the deal. Your mom doesn't want the world. She's living in either Mm-hmm, and yet here she is Your brothers and sisters don't want that world because they all had visions of bringing their grandkids around the fire at Thanksgiving and now that's over of bringing their grandkids around the fire at Thanksgiving and now that's over. And there's nothing worse than finding out your dad was dishonest or he's a gaslighter

or he's just a person that lacks integrity and you start to look throughout your life and you see remnants of that, you see images and shadows of that throughout your entire childhood and it makes you doubt everything. Yeah, that's really true because one of the things I was going to mention is, growing up my dad was kind of my coach. He would always coach me in basketball or whatever it was. He would always tell me growing up, hey, don't ever quit, don't ever give up. I actually confronted him on that when this was all going down.

I said, hey, growing up he kind of told me, hey, I'm not ever to quit. I guess that only applied to me. You know what I mean and Those are the hard things to your point that I've had to deal with of kind of going back and kind of replaying things over And over you know what I mean? Let me ask you this you confronted him with that. That feel good when you said that Not really, okay, I want that to be lesson a B and C The imaginary conversations you have in your head with him I want that to be lesson A, B, and C. The imaginary conversations you have in your head with him,

they're only seeking to make you crazy. And if you actually have those big reveal conversations, those big yeah moments in real life, you'll see a sad old man. Yeah. And you'll realize oh dude I just got down in the mud and threw mud at him and now I'm completely covered in mud and crap myself Yeah, and so I

The best I can tell you is to Y'all both write a letter to each one of your parents and don't ever ever send it maybe read it to each other both write a letter to each one of your parents and don't ever, ever send it, maybe read it to each other. But really what we're doing is we're having a miniature funeral to what we wanted things to be. We're gonna have a ceremony we can point to the ground, this is the day I officially called it, my dad's lost his influence

on my life, he cashed out. And then you brother James have to go be intentional about, you've got to go be intentional about finding other men in your life that you can trust. And Lily, you opted into this marriage and so you're going to have to opt into knowing you're going to tense up every time you go over to the house for a season. My hope is is that James your mom continues to be super mature and grown up and compassionate and your brothers and sisters come around and also it's gonna be awkward for a while and both of those things are true. And vice versa James when you go over and you shake her dad's hand and he

looks at you and is like your dad's the one that almost blew my life like there's just going to be some inherent awkwardness and some discomfort and so I think the joy is doing the next right thing and I think the resentment is dude I'm not even gonna this is gonna sound kind of arrogant I'm not gonna give my dad the I don't want you to give your dad even the dignity of allowing you to feel resentful. You get no votes. I was gonna be pissed off that you blew it up and then I'm gonna go to the next right thing and the next right thing in this situation is creating those moments on your own. I want y'all to create what you want Thanksgiving to look like then y'all make it happen.

And if you invite your brothers and sisters and your mom to your Thanksgiving and only two of them show up that they're still going through struggles, that's fine. That's not on you guys. And we're going to be sad. And then we're going to go have a good time at Thanksgiving the best we can. Then we're going to go to the next one. We're going to go to the next one. But what we're not going to do is we're not going to sit around and be victims in this

deal. And we're not going to sit around and be constantly re-victimized by a dad who blew up, co-blew up two families and continues to nuke his own family because he won't own up to his lack of integrity. And I'll tell you guys, I hate this for your new marriage. It's going to be really important that y'all are highly intentional with each other, James and Lily, that y'all don't keep secrets from each other and y'all continue to go back to your marriage over and over and over again

and be vigilant about who you allow to speak into it. Vigilant about the voices you allow in your own marriage. Because y'all are building something completely new. Completely new. And my hope, James, is your old man comes around because he's lost everything and I don't think he realizes that he's losing everything now. All of it. In the process, you two hang on to your dignity and your character and your respect and go

make an amazing marriage. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. I want to introduce you to my friends at Cozy Earth, the makers of the best bedding, sleepwear, and bath linens in the world. If you're like me, your New Year's resolutions are hanging on by a thread and your body is redlining from all of the new exercise,

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to get notified when the Lent Pray 40 Challenge begins. That's hallow.com slash deloney for three months of Hallow, absolutely free. All right, let's go out to Manitoba, Canada and talk to Planet Janet. Hey Janet, what's up? Hey John, how are you? I'm fantastic, how are you?

Good, thank you. What's up? So Michael, so I'll tell you a little bit of backstory. So I'm married with a kid and my friend is also married with a kid. She told me through text that she had something she wanted to tell me but was afraid that it was going to ruin our friendship. She ended up sharing that she has feelings for me.

There's nothing on my end, but I'm wondering if I should end our friendship. Have y'all had an in-person conversation yet? We did after that initial text. We just drove to a parking lot and we sat there and talked. Tell me how that conversation went. For me, it was incredibly awkward and a little bit uncomfortable.

She's just sure that she's never felt this way about a woman before. She is not sure why she feels attracted to me. I know she went through a really hard time. She went through a miscarriage and I was there for her emotionally. I wanted to support her. As I'm not sure if she's confusing vulnerability with intimacy.

Like I'm not sure why she would get her wires crossed and think that there's something there. Well I would get out of her head there may be there is something there. You know what I mean? You trying to solve it on this end I wouldn't spend the energy on that one. Yeah. I guess I appreciate her honesty, right? Because it gives you some pretty clear direction what to do. So tell me about, tell me about your confusion about next steps. Well, I guess I just in my head, I'm like, will it be awkward now? Because like she said, she was worried telling me that would wreck our friendship.

And so in my head, I'm like, I don't know that we can remain friends or like that it can go back to normal because now it's like, I know this thing. You know, there's no issue on my end. There's no going back. Yeah. So her saying that is a little bit disingenuous. I want to tell you this thing that's gonna change everything, but I don't want it to change anything.

Right? Right, and then I feel like a jerk if it's like, oh, this fear that you just shared with me that this would end our friendship, now I'm gonna do that thing. Yeah, but she ended the friendship because she proposed the friendship become romantic. If you had said, oh my gosh, I'm into this too,

was she offering to start an affair or was she just putting stuff dated out on the table? Right, and that's what I don't know, is like what was her expectation in telling you that? Like, I would assume you tell somebody that because you would hope they would reciprocate. Yeah, and you heard the old saying about assuming, right? Right.

So, what do you want to do? I mean, I feel like the right thing would be to, and to, I guess I just struggle a lot with being a people pleaser and not wanting to hurt people. So let's make this a little bit easier, okay? This is a really close guy colleague that you work with. And y'all do some, you've been through some tough projects together,

y'all made it through layoffs together. You spend eight hours or 10 hours a day with this dude, y'all laugh together, you tell jokes, he knows about your kids, your husband and vice versa, you know about his wife and his kids and then he shoots you that text. What's your next move? Obviously to say like I don't feel that way, this is inappropriate, you know, I'm married. This can't continue and just to cut off communication. And there we go. And there we go. Yeah.

Okay. You'll have different levels of intimacy because you're both women, you'll both been through things together and you've been with your friend through a really hard season. But the same result is the same. If you cheat on your husband, you blow your marriage up. If you have a friend that you were vulnerable and super intimate with, and then they say, hey, I've now crossed a line in my own spirit where this is romantic for me, then in many ways I think it's cruel for you to continue the relationship. At least as it was.

Well, again, I want to stay out of her head because I don't know what she's feeling, what she's experiencing. I'm going to take her at her word. She has fallen in love with you. And that might be so far from your planet that doesn't make sense cognitively or logically or whatever. That's okay. She's just saying, this is true for me.

I love you. I am romantically interested in you. But for you, there's the attraction part that you don't have, fine. But I think it's deeper as you immediately rattle off if this happened to be a male coworker who is also a close friend. This is inappropriate, I'm uncomfortable. I got a

family. This just ended our back and forth. Right. I feel like it's also a little bit complicated because her husband is friends with my husband. We all know each other from church. So it's not just I'm ending the friendship with her. It's like it's all over. And so like I told my husband what happened right away, I was like, oh hey, I got this text, this is really odd, like I was taken aback by it, and he, you know, I told him we were gonna go meet up and talk, but she has not told her husband. And I don't know if that's my place.

Because I think- I don't think so. What if, I don't think so. Yeah, because I'm like, you know, what if she has a change of heart, or she's like, I'm such an idiot, like I don't wanna be responsible Yeah, because I'm like, you know, what if she has a change of heart or she's like, I'm such an idiot. Like I don't want to be responsible for blowing up their marriage. Again, she would be responsible for it.

She's responsible for it. My next question was going to be what your husband say. And I was afraid you were going to say I haven't told them yet. And so the fact that you did. I did. That's awesome. What did he say after you all met? After I told him that we had gotten together,

my friend and I, I just told him what our conversation was. And yeah, he didn't say like, oh, you must enter your friendship with her. He was just supportive and was like, it's good you guys talked. So male or female, like, gay, straight, I always am faced with two things here. One, and this might sound strange to a casual listener,

I'm compassionate for somebody that has the courage to say, here's what's actually going on in my soul. That doesn't mean I have to think it's right, I don't have to like it, whatever. It can mean a lot of changes in our lives, but I have compassion for somebody who just says I got to say this. And then you can't be a response. You can't walk around holding it.

Oh my gosh, I ruined this stuff. Like no, not really. I did it. No, not really. All you did was respond to the data that's in front of you, which is it's like, I don't have the same feelings for you. And it's cruel if I continue to march around and we do friend stuff and we talk all the time, we text all the time, we tell each other intimate things about our lives.

We sit with each other through hurt and pain and whatever and I know That you've got deep feelings for me Mm-hmm. I know you want to be living a completely different life than the one you're living One where you're married to that guy where you got those kids in that house And by the way, who knows if that's even true, right? Right. I don't know if she wants to be living a different life. And maybe you get further clarification like, hey, what were you expecting when you told me that?

I don't know what level of friendship you are. Yeah, we've been friends for a few years. And of course, you know, as girlfriends do, we talk about marriage and life and kids and all the things. And so we're pretty close. Yeah. Is it something that you can just let breathe for a while? I can, like, I like to take my time and think about things and not rush to be, to make actions or not be quick to speak. I like to take my time before I do or say something that I might regret. But for her, I think she's kind of pressuring me through text like, you know,

hey, what's happening? You know, where are we? Where do we stand? And so I guess I feel pressure from her to make a decision. Yeah, she doesn't get a vote on that. Yeah. I think it's fair to say, hey, you changed the dynamic of our friendship and I'm really grateful that you told me what was going on in your heart and your mind. But now I'm uncomfortable with how to move forward and so I just need some time. Yeah, that's fair.

And I think you tell your friend, I love you. I want you best for your house and your marriage. I think your husband needs to know that you're going through some, like your partner, the person you pledged your fidelity to needs to know that his wife is struggling. Not that she's struggling with same sex attraction, nothing like that, but she is struggling with, I think I've fallen in love with somebody else. Yeah, you're thinking about having that conversation or just telling her what direction I'd want her friendship to go just makes me like shake inside and makes me want to crumple in a heap on the floor. Yeah. I hate confrontation and... I know the confrontation came to you. It came to you. Yeah.

confrontation came to you. It came to you. Yeah. And so somewhere along the way you got the message that how you feel doesn't matter as much as how other people feel. And in this situation, somebody came and said, Hey, I have romantic feelings for you. Do you have them for me? And if you don't, you have to have the courage to say, no, I did not. And I need some space on what to do with our friendship. And maybe you'll go back and have coffee a little while later and you can sit down and ask, like, Hey, what were you trying to? What were you trying to? What did you want me to say? Right? Like, what would you want me to say? Right, like what would you want me to say?

You know that I love my husband, you know that I love my kids, you know that I love my life and my how. Like what, I don't know what you were hoping for here. And maybe you can dig in. But I guess the meta here is you're allowed to be uncomfortable. And you're allowed to be frustrated that you had a great friend and now that's different.

And you're also allowed to be compassionate towards your friend who's clearly going through some stuff. And you're allowed to be confused on what to do next and just need time. You're allowed to not be pressured by somebody who just said, Hey, I have feelings for you. I think I love you. What about you? What about you? What about you just said, hey, I have feelings for you. I think I love you. What about you? What about you?

What about you? Like, hey, slow to slow your roll. I don't feel the same way. And you've changed our friendship. And so I need some time. All those things are you're allowed. Take your time. Thanks for the call, Janet.

When you feel like you want to get in the heat, don't. This is a good moment in your life to practice standing up on your own two feet. Saying, here's what I feel, here's what I need right now. And if she's really a close friend, she'll say, I get it. I know I need some space. I know I just changed the dynamic of our friendship. I'll give you some space. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. Let's talk about DeleteMe, my go-to provider for online safety, security, and peace of mind.

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That's J-O-I-N, joindeleteeme.com slash deloney. All right, let's go out to the home of Pearl Jam, Seattle, Washington, and talk to Dawn. Hey Dawn. Hi, John. What's up? Well, I'm really grateful to be able to talk to you today. My question, I'll get right into it, is how can I leave my marriage without risking my

newly sober daughter's recovery? I don't know that you can. I don't even know what the situation is, but I know that you can. I realize that's worded kind of strangely. I guess the question really is, should I? I mean, I guess at this point I'm feeling like I really better not. But I can give you a little background if that helps. Well, before we get to the background, I don't want to complicate it because this feels pretty straightforward. Why do you need to leave your marriage? Well, I want to emphasize that that really has nothing to do with the whole last 10 years that our

family and our daughter have been through. In parallel, our marriage has had problems. I've been married for 30 years. And just tell me, why do you want to leave your marriage? What do you need to leave your marriage? I want to leave my marriage because I have things that I can't seem to get through or get over and we're not talking adultery or abuse, just a lot of other things and I feel like my husband is just extremely apathetic about the things that I think we would need to do

to have a better marriage. Does he know those things? Yes. He's just looking at you and saying, yeah, I'm not doing that. He's looking at me and saying, I don't think anything will help. Okay. He said, I don't think you will ever get over the things you're upset about. And I, I don't see that there's anything I can do, but he doesn't take any steps to

end the marriage. He doesn't take any steps to do the things that, um, basically what I've been asking for is some intensive marriage counseling and he just continually kind of fails to act. Okay. So you're going to leave your marriage. Um, how old is your daughter? She's 28. Does she live with you? No, she does not. Okay. Um, how long has she been sober?

Only about four months. Okay. been sober? Only about four months. So she's been through her entire adult life. I mean in some ways she's almost the 16 year old even though she's 28 because she hasn't had any functioning adult life. She's been through just unspeakably horrific things for the last 10 years of her life. And so I, you know, she is the child of our, we have four children. She's the one who really deep down family has always meant the most to our, our, our marriage. And if she detects that things aren't well, that's I think been more upsetting to her than the other kids.

Um, and that's why I kind of feel like I don't know that I can do anything at this. I mean, I, I just can't see risking her recovery. I mean, that means more to me than anything else, but I don't know if that's the right decision. Man, I would need a lot more context here. Okay. Just on the outset, the fact that you're not going to make an adult decision because of what your 28-year-old daughter who doesn't live with you may or may not do tells me the enmeshment between y'all two and whatever other messiness that's happened over the last 10 years, 15 years, 20 years runs real deep.

Because here's the deal. If your daughter is only sober at 28 years old, because everyone around her is playing the sophisticated game of charades, her sobriety is gonna fail in a dramatic fashion. Yeah. If she's four months sober because she is tired of the unspeakable things of her, she's just ready to be have a different life if you're around newly sober people who are on the path you can't shake them off yeah that makes that make sense i it sounds like there's so much more going on here when you say unspeakable things over the last ten years What are you talking about? She was 18 years old till now

the things that You know the things that women generally end up needing to do to maintain their using She's I maintain they're using. I mean, she's been raped. She's had a prostitute herself. She's been chained up to a safe full of drugs in a garage. I mean, there's been horrible, horrible things. And when I think about what she's been through,

I just don't wanna do anything to shake how she's doing right now. Um, the complicated things she, uh, is also pregnant right now. So she's got, you know, a lot of hard things coming up. Uh, I, I understand that I need to separate, you know, my life from hers. And hers and I actually do feel that I've done that very well over the last several years, but I also do feel a responsibility, I guess, in a way for what she's been through. So that responsibility to a 28 year old will come through direct honest conversation compassion and presence not through dishonesty and lying

Right, I mean I don't feel like I'm being dishonest I just feel like I'm failing I'm just in limbo failing to act because I don't want to I Don't think you're super certain about this divorce Like you're so frustrated and annoyed at the end of your rope, but you're looking for some external things to keep this thing hanging on because you're about to pull the ripcord on something. Yeah. And my challenge to you would be don't put that on your daughter. Right. And my challenge to you would be don't put that on your daughter.

Right. What do you hope is different? What would intensive marriage counseling get you and your husband? I guess I have a hard time letting go of things that I'm resentful for and I haven't been able to do that on my own And I haven't been able to do it because my husband um when we talk he I don't really get

I don't really get an apology for things that have happened. I get defending of things that have happened and then that kind of just that have happened, I get defending of things that have happened and then that kind of just perpetuates the resentment. And so I feel like some third person. Yeah, but that's an invitation. That is a choice you're making. Well, I know that in my head, but it's still there. I mean, I would love to let everything go. It's not about letting everything go.

It's about metabolizing it. Like it's in your system, right? And you think if he comes and says, I'm so sorry, you're right. I screwed this up. That somehow your feelings will suddenly dissipate. That suddenly your body will be able to digest it. Yeah. dissipate that suddenly your body will be able to digest it. Yeah.

That's not how that works. Okay. You have to decide I'm hanging on to this anymore. I'm going to do the work that I need to do. Because by the way, you're going to go get divorced you're gonna split up your assets after 30 years You can divide this stuff up. You're gonna figure out how to get how to eat all this kind of stuff Mm-hmm. Hopefully you have a job. You're gonna have to apartment like everything in your life can change I'm not saying that's the wrong thing. I'm just saying every single component of your life can change

Right, you're gonna come home to an empty apartment and the things he did and said are still going to be in the middle of your chest. Whatever those things happen to be. He said he's not abusive, so I don't know what those things are, but they're there. Yeah. And so at some point you're going to have to do the work anyway. Okay, but how do I go forward? You know, if I, I've been just endlessly debating all this in my head for honestly years. Have you sat with a counselor and said, here's the problems in my life?

Yes. And what has your counselor said? Leave this man? Um, no. It hasn't been very helpful. Well, I've actually gone to two different ones, one with him, one without him. The one that I have done a little bit with him

and then met separately with this counselor as well. So he's been to therapy with you? Very minimally. Um, and I've always had to make the appointment. I've always had to remind him of the appointment. Um, and then he usually fails to act on whatever assignment we were given in the appointment. Okay, so here's what I'm hearing. Your daughter's been through absolute abject hell. You've got a lump on a log as a husband.

And my guess is that there's 50 other things going on in your life too. This is just a short phone call. What I want you to do for maybe the first time in your life is to get out a piece of computer paper off a printer somewhere just a blank sheet of paper. Okay. And I want you to take a pen and not in a blaming way. Please God hear me say it's not about blame. Okay. About ownership. What can I control here? And the beautiful thing is, it is both humbling and limiting and terrifying because you will realize I cannot control

what my husband does, period. I cannot control whether my daughter stays sober or not. I don't have that kind of power. She's a 28 year old about to be a new mother with extraordinary trauma in her past. And your other kids and your financial situation and whatever else has happened in the past. situation and whatever else has happened in the past, what can I actually take ownership of right now? If my husband's a lump on a log and he's not gonna change,

I have a choice to make. This is my life. I'm gonna make him a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go about my days. He said some stuff 20 years ago, 10 years ago. I'm done carrying that around. I like him, he's annoying. I wish he'd lose some weight and I wish he would get a different job, but it is what it is what it is. Or leave. But every day there's been a pot on the stove of old stew

and you keep heating it back up and then you just are like, ugh. on the stove of old stew and you keep heating it back up and then you just are like, ugh. You don't ever either eat it or just throw the stew out. Right. So what I want you to do is to stop being a person who's receiving all of these external things. I can't do it because of this and he won't do that and she might do this and then there's this thing over here and then I don't like the dad of the new bit

What can you take ownership of in your life, what can you control write that on a piece of paper and Then begin to take action steps towards those very very few things your thoughts and your actions by the way are all you got Of what you can control what you can impact next. That's it. That's it. And it's so frustrating at how little it is, but it's also so freeing. This is all I can go do. And before you file for divorce, have a friend sit down with you and go through finances where you're going to live family stuff, um, inheritances, vacations,

holidays, and see if the juice is worth the squeeze. You've been married 30 years, and he may have gone to counseling and been like, it's a waste of my time, because we get home, she's just gonna X, Y, same, same, same, same, same. If you install a therapist,

and the therapist is like, hey, why don't you just treat each other nicer? And you're like, no, that's not it. Maybe. I don't know. What can you control? What can you act on next? But if you want to leave your husband, don't put that on your daughter. And if you want to leave your husband, get some wisdom and guidance. But I'd recommend before you go do that, taking a few other steps to see if this is really what I want to do.

And if maybe by changing my thoughts and my actions and my day-to-day interactions with people and my day-to-day behaviors, suddenly the light doesn't begin to come on in this home and in my own chest and in my own room and my own life without the light coming from the blast of blowing everything up. Just a thought. Thanks for the call, Don. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've probably heard people talk about different kinds of flags and friendships and romantic relationships. You got red flags and green flags and beige flags. Listen, it can be helpful to look for patterns or relationship behaviors that are unsafe. But to me, all those labels can distract from what's really important when you're trying

to find a lasting, deep relationship. What's really important are your values and your potential partner's values and whether both of you are willing to wake up every day and choose to honor each other's values. But when you grow up in challenging environments or given how we are bombarded with everyone else's values all day every day, it can be tough to even know what are my values, what is important to me in a relationship and how will I show up to honor myself and love my partner? Forget all the different flags. Listen, ask yourself, how can I learn to know what I value? Therapy can help you figure out your values, learn what you're looking for in your relationships, and then decide your boundaries and non-negotiables. If you're thinking about starting therapy, try BetterHelp.

BetterHelp is a hundred percent online therapy that works with your schedule. To get started, just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. So whether you're dating, married, building a friendship, or just working on yourself, do it with help from BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney. All right, Kelly, am I the problem?

What you got? All right, this is from Dominique. She says, my husband has never been a great gift giver. Birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, it always has me thinking of things for ideas for our family members and he really puts no thought into any of it. When he buys things for me, I don't feel like he puts any thought or barely any into the gifts he gets me. This year for Christmas, I gave him a list of about 10 gift ideas, all with various price ranges. The only thing from that list he got me was candy and it wasn't even the kind I asked for. I thanked him for the gifts he did that he did

get me and I haven't said anything further. However, I'm quietly upset about his lack of effort or thoughtfulness. Do I have the right to be upset or should I just be grateful that I got anything at all? You have the right to feel however you want to feel. And yes, you can be frustrated. The question is, are you going to leave him? Probably not. Is this the 10th time you've given him a list and he hasn't bought on that list and that's

the only problem in your marriage? Then yes, move on with your life. Just go buy the things you want to buy and move on. If there's something deeper here, have that conversation. I don't know. A couple of years ago, there was like a glitch in the matrix. And anyway, I, I ended up on Christmas morning. I had nothing open, zero things. My family was all like, it was just a thing happened to a thing. And somebody thought that I had zero and it, I like was shockingly sad.

And I was just like, this is bumming me out. I'm a grown man. It was in my house that I paid for. So it wasn't a matter of need or, and I, oh, my wife had got me some stuff that just hadn't arrived yet. There was a storm and what, anyway, it was just a, like, this sucks.

It was. And it made me do some deep diving into, in your mid forties, if you're still waiting for your mommy and your daddy to get you that right gift, stop, you're a grown man. And yeah, it's a bummer to be on Christmas morning and not get the, like get a present. And like when my wife saw my face,

like she ordered stuff saw my face, like it has, it's, she orders stuff so early now because because she knows like, I don't ever want that to happen. Even though it was a perfectly good reason why the stuff she ordered didn't make it. Like I don't want that to happen because that sucks. Right? So I don't know, dude, it's both and, but it's okay to be bummed out. You didn't get anything for Christmas except for the candy that was the wrong candy. And also, I don't know. What

do you think? I don't know if you remember, but I think it was after, was it my birthday or Mother's Day a couple of years ago? And I texted you because I had that same thing where I like to bake and everything that I'd gotten for Christmas or my birthday or whatever it was, was kitchen stuff. And I remember having my feelings hurt because I thought, oh, so this is all like, y'all just go in there and bake me something. And I've reached out to you and you said, well, have you ever told him?

I was like, well, no, he should know. And you were like, no. And so this past year was the first year that I said something to my husband and he said oh my gosh I'm so sorry. I just know you like to bake and I thought these were things you'd want and then I was right He's right. They were things I want he closes his eyes the only time he ever sees Kelly smiles when she's cooking something so he was like sweet What is that when you're a little bit high? But other than that like it's like then, and he doesn't buy drugs because he works

at the police department. So like, I'm going to get her some, I get that. I get that. And I did. And then he's like, and so he was, he was so upset and baffled that I thought this. And then I realized, well, yeah, because he knows I love doing that and he's buying me something he loves that he thinks I'll love. And the thing was I did like most of them.

But this year he, I asked him, I said, would it help you if I gave you a list? And he said, tremendously. Now, the difference is he got me almost everything on my list. And for him, it took the pressure off. I got what I wanted and it was great. And he got me a few surprises and it was great. Now she may have to have another conversation. I had to go a layer deeper Yeah, and tell him why those gifts quote-unquote hurt my feelings, which is stupid But the idea of what I was feeling and then he was like, oh, I'm so sorry I never meant that and then when he explained why he got me those things I realized oh, that's really sweet So it was just conversation. Yeah, I think this is the conversation here is not about the gifts. It's about You're one of the rare men in the world

that their wife gave you a roadmap to their heart. And you were like, nah, I'll take my own roads, skittles, right? And or whatever crappy candy he got. And I think that's the conversation because I almost would guarantee that happens across the board. Oh, I think it happens a lot.

Can you help with this? Sure. And you just shove the socks in the drawer and she's like, hey, it would a lot. Can you help with this? Sure. And you just shove the socks in the drawer and she's like, hey, it would really help me if you put it like this. Yeah. Hey, can you help the kids get ready? They're fine.

Like if that conversation had that conversation, if this guy's perfect and he just sucks at gift giving, let it be. And let me say this, after that year happened to me, I have become incredibly empathetic to other people and gift giving. And I realized that I was just an Amazoner. Click on a few things and have them shipped to the house.

The last couple of years, I've tried really hard to pay attention and it's made Christmas so much more fun watching my wife and my kids light up because they're like, oh, you heard me. It's become so fun that way, right? And so, I don't know, I'm glad it happened to me. There's an SNL, you could look it up with Kristen Wiig where she's the mom and it's

on Christmas morning. And it's hilarious. The whole thing about her getting just a robe. It's worth watching. Yeah. But also, you know what? If you don't like what he gets you, tell him, hey, get me gift cards and let me go shopping. That's right.

Because I love to go shopping with other people's money. So tell him that. Yes. Make it easy. And the gift you got me this year, just the coffee table book of all the Metallica songs, that made me felt seen and heard. I'm glad.

And also with you. And Ben, you rolled up with a lot of weed. I'm not a smoker, but I appreciate the sentiment. You're illegal. You're welcome. Call the cops. You're welcome, bye.