The Dr. John Delony Show - Dave Ramsey on Growth, Transformation, Marriage, & Parenting

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

The Dr. John Delony Show is a caller-driven show that offers real people a chance to be heard as they struggle with relationship issues and mental health challenges. John will give you practical advice on how to connect with people, how to take the next right step when you feel frozen, and how to cut through the depression and anxiety that can feel so overwhelming. You are not alone in this battle. You are worth being well—and it starts by focusing on what you can control. Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show. We want to talk to YOU!   Show Notes for this Episode   John interviews Dave Ramsey   As heard on this episode: BetterHelp     These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately.

Hey, what's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I hope you're doing awesome. And I've tried to not say the word awesome anymore. I had a buddy tell me that's what like people who work with high school kids say. Like, oh, that's awesome. And I'm trying not to say it, but I just said it. And I'm sorry, but I'm so glad you're with us. Listen, this special show, it's the 100th episode show. We've done 100 of these things.

We've gone from Deloney does not have social media and does not know how Instagram works, which according to some of you who write in to me, still don't know how that works, to we have crossed the 100 show mark. We are off to the races, and I can't even tell you. This is so surreal. It's been a mind bender. I'm so grateful for everybody who listens to this show, who tells their friends, hey, you got to listen to this episode. You got to go check this guy out.

I'm so, so, so grateful. Thank you so, so much. So here's the deal. In my nerd world, when I was a researcher nerd and an academic guy, what I was really fascinated by was quote unquote people that had made it, right? Doctors, lawyers, people who were winning in business, faith leaders, folks in communities that other people look to them for answers. How do I be well? What do I need to be doing now? And what I was always fascinated by was the more successful people became, the lonelier they got, the tighter their circles became. And suddenly, they start seeing the world a little bit differently. They start acting a little bit differently. Their world starts orbiting other things that most of us don't understand. And here's the thing.

When you get behind the fake lives and the plastic lives and the curtains, I found out there are people just like me. And it gave me a lot of peace. And it changed my, the way I blamed people for stuff and pointed fingers at people for stuff. And so here's the thing. It was a hundred episode, a hundredth episode. Is that how you say that, James? A hundredth. It's the hundredth episode. It's the one zero zero TH episode. And I thought, man, my love for sitting down with somebody and having a deep conversation

that people have never heard before, getting to the question and the story behind the question and behind the story and my love for digging into folks who have quote unquote made it. I'm so excited. Dave Ramsey himself joins me on today's show, talks about some things I don't think he's ever talked about publicly, talks about how things fell apart, scorched earth, and he had to rebuild from the floor up. And some of the things he did intentionally, some of the things he still worries about, struggles about, some of the things that he still does in his life every day to make sure he's whole and he's well. And what grief looks like, what loneliness looks like, all of it. We go there, and I'm so excited. I'm so grateful that you joined me on the show. And I'm really excited to let you guys see what I get to see on a daily basis,

which is the guy behind the microphone, right? When the microphone's turned off. And I'm just so thrilled. So stay tuned. It's a wild ride. By the way, he said one of his favorite songs was the Eagles. And so we don't have a favorite song on this one. And so just sing your favorite Eagle song and just assume that was the song of the day cool stay in school

don't do drugs this is dave ramsey on the 100th episode of the dr john deloney show well dave it's good to see you man dude you too john i am the worst i i watched some of my colleagues you y'all are so good at getting into shows and out of shows, and there's two minutes left, and nobody knows. There's this whole piano playing that's going on that the average listener has no idea. And there is no more awkward person in this building than me

at getting into a show, getting out of it. It's like, hey, well, it's over. See you later. We could probably get him some bump music, James. No, we're good. Bump, bump. Gotta have some bass, though. Saxophone.

It's all about that bass. I just can't. Anyway, so it's good to see you, man. You too. I'm glad. So, obviously, this show is very similar to your show, but very, very different, too, where we get a lot of calls about questions,

but the goal here is to get behind that question and to talk to the people that these questions are happening to right and often people think this is the thing that's going on in my life it's not right there's other things going on and if i get deeper than that one of the things that i've i've noticed over the last 15 20 years is people operate every day with these words that are running through their heads all day, but they don't have a picture for what that reality looks like. And they think that everyone in their world around them has got it more together. Everything's going great. Everything's looking wonderful. And if someone's got a radio shows on TV or they have an exercise program,

whatever it is, they don't experience all these other things that are really just normal everyday run of the-of-the-mill experiences that we all as people are experiencing all the time. And so I love this segment. We've had some few interviews on this show, but I love having these conversations where we can take somebody who's got a persona, got a public face, if you will. You have less of a persona. You're kind of who you are who you are. But then say, tell me about about elaborate this for the listener right give somebody some some a ringside seat as to what this experience was like and so i appreciate you coming on the show

um just for the average person obviously if someone's listening to this show they know who you are give us the the the story right the story that is the arc that began the Ramsey, the get out of debt, the baby steps, that I want to be a part of helping other people. Take us back to that original story. Sharon and I graduated from college. We were broke. She was driving a Pinto. That's how broke we were. is a bad car john and um i went through it i got fired from a job um still don't know why i got fired the guy just came and

cussed at me and threw me out there i probably did something that i deserve but i wish he just told me he's dead now and i won't even i'll never know why you'll never know i'm bitter but i got fired and i came home and i always been around the real estate business mom and dad were in the business i got my license when i turned 18 so i'm going the real estate business i'm gonna and so i went to work for a builder for a while and then i decided to start buying and selling real estate and the nothing down real estate seminars and uh the this is actually before there were actual infomercials to tell you how to do it. But I went to these nothing down seminars, which were hokey.

But what it did do is it made me believe I could do it. And so I bought our first investment property at 23 years old. By the time I was 26, I had $4 million worth. You have kids? No, the kids came later. Okay. And so we, you know. So you're a 26-year-old millionaire.

Yeah. No more Pinto's, right? But I borrowed, but it was all borrowed money. I mean, I borrowed $3 million to get the $4 million worth. So three minus, I mean, four minus three is one. So, I'm a millionaire. But it's all in real estate. So, I got no cash at all.

I mean, I had spare cash flying around. I was making a couple hundred a year, which in 1983 was a lot of money. But, you know, I worked all the time, and I was an arrogant little person. You can say it on this show, man. Yeah, I own the show show so i probably shouldn't but um but the uh um but anyway i uh yeah and so i'm driving the jaguar i thought i was all kind of ba right i thought i was something else and um all worried about how everything looked i met god on the way up when you say that what does that does that mean? I mean, I started going to a church, and I fell in love with Jesus, and I got baptized, and I started learning the Bible, which I knew nothing about.

And it started changing me. And along that story arc, of course, the banks got sold to another bank, and they called our notes. We had a lot of short-term notes because we were doing flips. So we have a 90-day note. And if the house didn't sell, we'd just renew it for 90 more days until it sold. But all of a sudden, they said, after 90 days, we want all our money. And so, I mean, the whole thing, this house of cards came crashing down. And we almost made it.

I paid the $3 million down to under $300,000. Whoa. And I almost made it, but it took two and a half years. And one year I made $250,000. The next year I made $6,000. My taxable income was – and that's the year Rachel was born. And that's the year we filed bankruptcy was the last year because we couldn't make the turn. We had too many lawsuits and too many people coming after us they're coming to take the baby bed out of the house and it just it just destroyed any sense of ego or confidence

or the word you would use is trauma traumatized me uh but but in the midst of it uh you know i see we always use the phrase around here but it's very very true, is Matt got on the way up, got to know him on the way down, and our marriage is hanging on by a thread. Sharon would have left, but she didn't have a car. I mean, Rachel's born, we got a toddler, Denise, and... Rachel's middle, right? Yeah, Rachel... So you had two. Yeah, Rachel was born in April, we filed bankruptcy in September, and September was the end of the two and a-a-half-year fight. And how much older is Denise than Rachel?

Three years. So one of the most common calls we get on this show is, hey, my marriage is a mess. And when I back out and say, all right, sir, give me some details, they say, well, we got two kids under three. And I always stop and say, your life's a mess anyway, right? Just hang on because it's going to – Well, I mean, Sharon was a single mom with two anyway, right? Just hang on because it's going to. But you had that. Sharon was a single mom with two babies. Okay, because you're running around.

Because I'm just running around working 60 hours a week, selling stuff, trying to keep from going bankrupt and trying to eat and trying to keep the lights on. And they weren't kept on. They got cut off. And they keep the water on and it wasn't cut off. You know, and we were so broke. Of course, I'm handy because I was always working on houses my whole life.

And so when they cut the water off, I had a water meter too. I just went and cut it back on. Right. And then they came out and cut it off, put a lock on it. And then I took my bolt cutters, cut the lock off, and cut it back on. And then they came out and took the water meter out. I don't know. So they don't like you taking water if you're not paying the bill.

So eventually I had to pay the bill. And I was, I mean, I'm trying to feed my family. I mean, I was broke. And it was not anything I'm proud of, but I really did do that. And if I could have figured out how to do that with the electric meter, I would have done that too. But I couldn't figure it out without getting electrocuted and dying. So, I mean, we had the lights cut off. We had everything.

We had stuff towed. We were foreclosed on. We were sued. And it was just two and a half years of unmitigated hell. And when we went bankrupt, I'll never forget, I'd been so scared for so long, and I didn't know I was scared, and I was so broken. And I would just stand in the shower and cry. And I remember driving away.

I can show you the stoplight on Charlotte Pike where I was here in Nashville. I was driving away from this little attorney's office, and we had just signed the paperwork. And when you file bankruptcy, it puts a stay, a stop on all collector activity, all creditor activity. They can no longer contact you. And I've been battling these guys with clubs and knives and bazookas for two and a half years, day in and day out. Been lied to, stepped on, kicked, spit on, and deserved most of it. And I'm sitting at that stoplight. I'm 28 years old with a brand-new baby.

I don't have any way to make money. I'm out of business. I had an incredible peace wash over me. It's like the other side of the trauma, this thing just washed over me. And I thought, man, I can breathe. I'm going to be okay. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to be okay. I don't know where we're going to get food next week, but we're going to be okay.

I don't have this monkey on my back anymore. Yeah, that's one of the most common things I hear when people are going through something and you realize I haven't exhaled for two years. Yeah. I haven't. Yeah. I haven't looked my kid in the eye in two years, right? I mean, my countenance changed literally in six months.

I mean, it was a spiritual piece, yes. But it's just getting that crap off of us. And so when somebody calls my show 30 years later now, and I can hear it, I can hear it. Just like you can hear it on this show. I watch you. You've done enough trauma work. I mean, you can hear somebody. You're hearing between the lines when they're faking it, the nervous laugh or whatever.

And I can tell when they're getting ready to start crying because I can feel it. I know that. I know what it feels like to have that lump in your throat. That's the difference between reading a book about something and having Sutton in that seat and stare at that stoplight. I haven't exhaled in two years or three years. When I hear a Phoenix from the ashes story, I'll hear this and now we look at this building, right? You've got 1,000 employees.

We just built the other building for the other two. You've been a part of this, not been a part of it, you orchestrated this extraordinary journey since then. When I look at a story like this, or I look at the super weight loss story, or I look at the fill in the blank story, what I always think is, man, that must've been tough. Then look how great. So I got a model and I got a map now from here to here. And then I go like weight loss or exercise. Then I go the next morning and I just work out as hard as I can. I go do it. And then that next morning, I'm so sore I can't move. And then the only thing that makes that soreness go away is a box of donuts or something.

Chocolate covered. I don't care. Any donuts are so good. So for somebody listening here, you were scared. You felt it. It's easy to blow by that and say, and then I had this moment of peace and then i i exhaled and then i turned around no we didn't turn around what yeah what what does that fear if you remember those days going out and that anger you have when somebody cut your water off but they also there's that indignation and i'm gonna break the rules but i gotta water my family

needs water right like walk somebody through the the racing, right? Well, and it's just because you're at the bottom doesn't mean the transformation's over. No. I saw the other day, this man has hit rock bottom and he appears to be digging, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, it was 1988, September when we filed bankruptcy. We started the radio show in 1992, June. So that's almost four years later.

Wrote financial peace three years later. So something happened during those other three years. How are we surviving? That's the part. What's happening? And that's the period between the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's the Maccabees. So it's the period between the Old Testament and the New Testament. It's the Maccabees, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Right? So it's the quiet time, the silent period or whatever you call it. But there's a healing, a cocooning, a growing, you know, picking the scabs off, and all of that process that's um you know sharon and i uh when we hit our 10 you know when all that stuff was happening we would have been married at in uh we got married in 82 so in 88 we've been married six years when we hit bottom so um at the 10-year mark, we almost divorced. Right. Four years after it all happened. Why?

Because we were too concentrated on freaking existing to even worry about having a feeling or being wronged or having any rights or anything else. But once we healed up enough, we got enough money, then we went, you know, I don't like you. Yeah. And she's like, by the way, back then you pissed me off. And I'm you yeah it's like and she's like by the way back then you pissed me off and i'm like that's four years ago get over it you know but no and so we end up in marriage counseling for for four years trying to survive and learn how to be married now again uh or for the first time in a new way with a new set of certain new set of rules and circumstances so that all is going on during that quiet period, so to speak,

and really bleeds over into the early days of when they started this show. Not this show, but the Dave Ramsey show back in the day, or the Money Game it was called back then. So how does an East Tennessee guy who's got, you have to have some swagger to become a 26 year old real estate mogul and then falls off and then is immediately into hustling again i gotta feed this family yeah i have a choice how in the world does that guy um summon the humility to go to a therapist therapist was not a thing back then.

That was, you, I mean. No, it wasn't. There wasn't a marriage therapist on every corner like there is now. No. And, but, you know, basically we're going, we, I looked at it like going to class. Okay. Like, I don't know how to do this. So I need somebody to teach me how to do this. Yeah. But that's a special level of humility, Dave. Well, I didn't know how to do this, so I need somebody to teach me how to do this. Yeah, but that's a special level of humility, Dave.

Well, I didn't know how to do it. I mean, it wasn't, it was not like, I think I know how, but I'm going to be humble. No, it wasn't. It was like, I don't know what the crap I'm doing here. I mean, I didn't know how to be married. And I certainly didn't know how to be married from a Christian perspective. And so I'm studying scriptures, and, you, and we're going to Christian marriage retreats and Christian marriage weekends and seminars and this stuff.

And so I'm learning the scriptural concepts of this, and I'm starting to learn how to apply them. And I'm dying and being reborn, literally, in so many facets of my life, but certainly spiritually in that process. And so it really wasn't, it was more like, and it wasn't really like this desperate thing, but it was, I don't know how to fix this, and I don't have, and the manual I've got is confusing. So I need somebody to guide me through the manual. And it just for me it was like a practical thing if that makes any sense but yeah and i didn't go to fix her i did that i i i'll i'll give myself a little credit yeah i didn't go i'm taking you to marriage counseling to straighten you out because i was well aware that the majority of it was me and i also knew enough about trauma

i wouldn't have called it that in those days but i you know i'd studied enough psych in school and that kind of stuff to get the idea that we'd been through hell and it affected both of us right and so we were damaged goods trying to two damaged people i mean my insecurity was magnified off the roof because i'd lost all confidence and competence, as if I had any. And her insecurity turned into just sheer terror. She's afraid every move I was going to make was going to put us in the street. Yeah. And rightly so, it had.

You know, so we had to work through some. Did you have a family map for that? Or were you out in the woods on this one? No, we were out in the woods. I mean, we had church family. But you didn't have a mom or dad that went through stuff and you saw them treat each other this way? My parents, her parents and my parents stayed married their whole lives. But that's all we knew.

We didn't know how they did it. Right, yeah. And we knew it was messy. Of course. You know, how you do it. Because it is always messy. Right. And if you think it's not messy, you're lying. Yeah, that's right. Or you haven't been married long, or whatever. And a lady came up and said, I've never had

a fight with my husband in 35 years. And I said, that's because you're a liar. Right. You know, book lines. He does drugs. Yeah, people's stuff say in book lines, right? But people stuff saying book lines right but um but yeah that and so that's all in that pretext and really that hasn't changed because like you know i start running a business and i'm going i don't know what i'm doing so i gotta get you know john

maxwell in my corner i gotta get henry cloud in my corner i gotta get and i didn't even know these men i started reading their stuff they become become friends later. But they, yeah, I had to have a guide to lead me through the forest on these different things that I didn't know. And I'm still looking. I don't look for a singular mentor. I don't believe in that. I need someone to be my mentor. I don't do that stuff. But I do look at a guy and go, hey, he's got a good marriage.

Okay, dude, what are you doing? Or that guy's good. Look at his kids turned out. How'd you do that stuff. But I do look at a guy and go, hey, he's got a good marriage. Okay, dude, what are you doing? Or that guy's good. Look, his kid's turned out. How'd you do that? Because I'm ready to kill mine. How do you let them live and they turn out? It does sound so A plus B equals C. Like, I need to learn how to fix this vacuum.

That guy knows how. I'm going to call that guy. That's an increase it's an always been rare and it's an increasingly rarer thing because now we got these little boxes in our phones that tell us that we know everything we can just google it right well you know but there's not a lot of people it is a type of humility but it's not this but what happened was i have the benefit of being humiliated by this crushing experience going through, losing everything. And so there was nothing left that said Dave knew anything.

Right. And so it was really easy to go, I don't know how to do that because obviously I don't know how to do anything, you know, kind of thing. So, you know, and so starting from that point, but that kid that was arrogant little you know 25 year old 24 year old whatever would not have gone to counseling because he would not have been wrong about anything okay so when i've made stupid mistakes said stupid things we we had a joint conference a zoom conference with my kids with hank school today and after the meeting i told sheila I want to join that Zoom. And she just looked at me with that one pause, and I said, I want to embarrass us. And so we had the Zoom meeting, and then I texted her after, did I embarrass us? And she wrote, no. And that, nope. And I was like, okay, good.

You can go home tonight. I'm good. Yes, I could sleep inside. So when we do dumb things or stupid things, I wear my shame, right? I have to deal with me. I've got it. And I'm, my tendency is like you, I need to surround myself by people who know how to do things I don't know how to do. And I love, that's one of my favorite things about being alive. But my wife, I've learned over the years, wears it too, in a different way. How did, to the best of you understand, how was Sharon walking through this? As someone who'd hitched her wagon to a smooth-talking, multimillionaire.

Then wasn't. Yeah. I mean, her first thing she would tell you was that she was terrified, that the experience terrified her and so we had to put um marriage counseling did this and common sense did this too we had to put rules in our life that keep me from doing something without her agreement that's going to terrify her and And so, for instance, we don't spend over $500, either one of us, without first talking about it. To this day. We do live on a budget, yeah. I'm worth hundreds of millions of dollars,

and I don't spend over $500 without talking to my wife. I never go and just buy something. Now, these days, with the zeros we live with, we are less and less concerned about it. If she wants to buy a purse that costs more than it should i'm just no big deal because that means i get another gun but yeah so a little trade-off here but uh you know but it's not uh so it's not like you know we're but in the old days it was like here we go again it was like you're scamming and scheming again that's what she would say.

And so I don't know if that gives you insight into her mindset or not. I don't think she, you would have to ask her to be sure, but I didn't read her as shame. That was me. But she didn't cause it. She just was hitched to it. Yeah. You know. Now, she was like at a family reunion with her family, the fact that we were bankrupt.

Now, she might have felt shame with that. But even with our friends and stuff, she's like, well, he's just an idiot. You know. I mean, maybe not exactly that. Not that raw. But, I mean, she's just like. She calls it like it is. She didn't feel like she caused it because she didn't.

Okay. And so, but except to the extent that she didn't speak up. And years later, she found her voice. And it works real well now. But she didn't speak up. She was just kind of the southern belle. Whatever you want to do, honey. And then later on, she got, but I knew it wasn't going to work.

And I'm like, well, why didn't you say anything? You're a dead gum genius until after the fact. So we just don't do stuff, but we're both in agreement. And we don't make large philanthropic gifts. We do a lot of giving to ministry through our family foundation. It's all structured. The family all speaks into it. Our kids speak into it.

Sharon and I are in agreement. And if one of my buddies calls up that's got a ministry and goes hey i need ten thousand dollars for this if there's even if i know there's room in the budget i email sharon and denise my daughter's the director of the foundation i'm going so and so's wanting ten thousand dollars i think we've got in the budget i think we ought to do it what do y'all think now i easily can make that decision i make hundreds of thousand dollars decisions around the company every day without talking to them. I run it through the leadership team here. But the accountability back to that keeps me from walking up on thin ice that activates her old scars, her old wounds.

And would you, for both of you, are they still there somewhere? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, will be the rest of our lives. Less and less, the more and more padding you had over them and the more distance you have, the more healed they are. I mean, if you'd ask us two years later or five years later, it felt a lot different for both of us. And, you know, I've worked past that shame and worked past that, the insecurity and the humiliation uh that i put myself through by owning it but also by not doing it anymore and i'm not that guy anymore right so i'm not that i'm not uh you know i'm i'm i'm a better dad i'm a better husband i'm a better i'm not not not arrived

don't get me wrong i'm a better leader than I was when I started. And so that allows me to give myself grace. Yeah. So that leads me to an identity question, twofold. One is my default setting, if you will, is when things get bananas in other people's life, I head in. That's just how I'm wired. I'm going to head on in. When things get bananas in my life, my default setting is to just fade out, just to withdraw.

Yours feels like it's the exact opposite. Yeah, I go straight in. You go like, I'm going to go swinging. Where does that come from? I know where mine comes from. Where does that tendency to, oh, boy, here we go. I don't know um could be upbringing uh it could be family dna or is it nurture or nature i don't you know i don't know how do you i mean i you know i grew up in a neighborhood that if if you know you know, two little boys are getting a fight.

I don't do that now. Right. Okay. But, I mean. That's mine, too. Two 12-year-old boys, you come on black eye or bloody nose or something. You know, your lips swelled up. And your parents' first question is, well, did you win or what did you say?

Yeah. You know, who was it and, you know, whose dad do I need to call to make sure we're all good? You know, but it's not like and the parents are all laughing about it you know they but today it would be like a dadgum facebook drama or something right or the hoa would be called in or something but some kind of helicopter parenting but um i mean we just bust george's lip if george mouthed off and so when there's a when there's something coming at you you reach and you you fight in other words so there's probably some of that in there, and I still do some of that.

Obviously, I don't bust people in the mouth anymore, except in my fantasies. That's another show. That's another show. But I don't. I mean, I haven't hit anybody in 40 years, so life's pretty good. So how do you – I have to – when I feel myself heading back, I've got a whole routine now that says real quick and not in real time. Nope.

The most responsible, ethical, right, faith-honoring thing is to go in this time. Yeah. How do you – Not go in. Not go in. Yeah. Do you have a process or do you have a – is that just routine over years or discipline or people in your life?

You know, again, I've, because there's a lot of fight or flight kind of psychology in this and physiological things in, as well. And, uh, and so I had to study and go, okay, from my background, from my natural wiring or my, my wiring, um, if I, if I'm going to reach over and jump into the fight, uh, I need to stop and think about, is it a fight or is that, did I just decide it was? I mean, is this, and so it's, early in my adult life, I had a tremendous temper and anger. And it was a big part of my spiritual transformation by the time I was 30 that it was gone. And I'm really passionate, loud, and gregarious. And sometimes people who are a little more laid back receive me as anger. But it's not anger. I very seldom get really, really, really like out-of-control rage type anger.

Like pulse rate goes up, eyes dilate, hands sweat. Like we're on it now. Yeah, it's game on. I almost never, because it was such a spiritual exercise for me early in my faith walk to get that under control. Because the wrathful man in Proverbs doesn't have much good happen for him. And he had to be, I had to die to him, and he had to grow up. And so I very seldom lose my, I mean, in 30 years of running this company, I have completely lost it with a team member two times. Two times.

Yeah. You know, and they were not good. And I can recount them, and it's like going on a bender or something. You know, you go, I ain't never drinking that again. You know, and so it was not a fun trip for me or them. That's fascinating because I can remember two or three times, four or five times over the last several years when I kept my mouth shut and I shouldn't have, and I leaned back and I should have, you know what I mean?

And so it haunts me in that same way, right? Just opposite ways, action or inaction, either one. And so it just becomes part of your spiritual walk, your psychological growth pattern to go, okay, I'm going to grow up because children act like that. Children shrink back when they should step in or children reach over and bloody somebody's nose. And that's a childish reaction. That is not an adult reaction. That's someone who has no self-control, and self-control is a fruit of the Spirit for those of us that are Christians.

So the second part of that identity is this. I do, almost every caller to this show, almost everybody I've met with over the years, they carry the worst thing that's ever happened to them, the worst thing they've ever done, the worst thing someone's ever said to them. It weaves its way into their DNA. It becomes them. And it informs

how they talk, how they think about themselves, how they treat other people, etc. You've had to walk a... It seems like you've had to walk a it seems like you've had to walk a really thin line between taking this worst thing that happened and which is bankruptcy the humility rising up from that but you built a company on it and you continue to tell that story yet it does not define you. Give some wisdom on how you've made that transition.

Because that, to me, is one of the biggest challenges. I don't know how I did it, but now I take the same calls in the sense that I hear the same thing. Somebody cheats on their wife 10 years ago and they can't get over it i the the question is have you grieved it and have you healed from it and if you haven't it is still your identity okay um i don't know how i did that but something allowed me through this process and again it was a spiritual transformational time in my life as well as very rich. And I'm getting over having a temper.

I'm trying to learn how to be married. I've got young babies, and I don't know how to raise them. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to act. And I'm having to learn how to do all of these things as a man. And so in the midst of that, somehow I gave myself some grief because I did some some stupid butt stuff and I broke when we went broke. It's my fault. So I had to own it and then I had to grieve it.

And then I had to heal from it. And if you don't heal from it, it becomes your identity. And so I have people call the show and they're like, well, you know, the reason I've got these financial problems is I went through a divorce and I've got $50,000 in debt. And I'm like, and the divorce was just awful and it just destroyed my life and i'm like so how long ago was it 11 years i'm like 11 years the way the language they were using was 11 months right because they're it's still fresh they still bathe in that acid every day they have not moved past it they're stuck in it well back then my husband did so-and-so they're still stuck in that acid every day they have not moved past it they're stuck in it well back then my husband

did so-and-so they're still stuck in that and uh so you gotta cut the bad thing that happened to you whether you brought it on yourself or not loose and heal from it and grieve it and i i probably wouldn't have used the word grieving uh six ago, but you've taught me a lot about that. Just listening to you take a call on my show, our show, the Ramsey Show, and say, well, have you grieved that? And I'm like, well, you know, it's okay to grieve a loss, even if it's a weird loss. Or if it's a teeny tiny one, or if it's a great big one, right? Yeah, it's okay to just stop and recognize that actually did hurt, you know? Instead of just keep running on that same hurt ankle, right?

It's like, well, I had a really, really nice car, and I totaled it. And, well, you can't talk about a car that nice, and you're sad about it because that makes you a jerk, right? And so one of the most common things I think, you know, I've talked about this. I've worked with doctors and lawyers behind closed doors, and you're allowed to be sad that you wrecked your Lexus. Yeah. It happened. Yeah. You're allowed to be sad that your lake house got totaled.

I totaled my Maserati, okay? They all own it. You're allowed to be sad. And it hurt my feelings because I liked that car. But you can't tell people my Maserati because it makes you sound like you're untouchable and you're too cool or you're snobbish or something. But it's none of that. I just wrecked my really nice car and it hurts my feelings. And we live in this culture of comparative grief.

Yeah, exactly. I've got it worse than you. Yeah, and you're not allowed to grieve something like that. No, there's a cap, right? Yeah, it's like we've talked about. Because, oh, well, cry me a river, one percenter. You know, it's not good. I remember, Dave, I was doing my dissertation.

I remember calling my dissertation chair saying, I'm going to have to talk about something really controversial in the defense. And he said, well, what is it? And I said, really powerful, wealthy people get to be sad too. And they get to have good marriages too and be sad when their marriages aren't working. And in fact, if they can be well and whole, everybody's well and whole because they run every, it was just like, whoa, you know what I mean? And he was like, whew, okay. You know what I mean? It was this whole, wait a minute, man.

If we're going to, yeah, if we're going to be about helping people be well, but it goes back to, man, I keep thinking this word over and over, Dave, you have this supernatural capacity to forgive yourself and i think many people don't aren't able to do that to forgive yourself to forgive the circumstance to forgive it and then go about being what tomorrow is going to be yeah and that's a real that's a gift or it's a practice and i think it it i again people often ask me about a lot of different things and i will go back to going broke i have the inordinate benefit of having gone broke early in my life.

And I think it gives you that. If that had happened a different way at a different time in my life, I might not have that. It reminds me of an old kickboxing coach that would put you against somebody way ahead of you and say, when you know the worst that can happen, then you're free to actually get in there and spar and start throwing punches and kicks. There's all kinds of stories that relate that you know but it's um but i i'll you know there's what is this show uh ted lasso oh you know what a masterpiece goldfish goldfish right yeah yeah yeah so what's the what's the animal with the shortest memory a goldfish be a goldfish so we can get into this one this is a fun question here so a

common question that i get asked either on the instagrams or through the emails is uh delaney you and dave are different right yeah and so he's a lot smarter than i am yeah right yeah right and so one of the things like one of, the, my loop arounds is always, man, I have intentionally just as a life practice surrounding myself with people with different beliefs than me, but who have same values as I do. Yeah. And those are two different things. One of the things I love about working with you is you've got a, I mean, and man, I wrote this question before we talked about before i knew about your desire to learn stuff you seem to crave other people's insights into things whether you incorporate it or not is is a whole other conversation but you like to know

hey how did you do that tell me about this like what how why are you thinking that you think i'm wrong argue with me yeah yeah i relish that that is a for someone who's achieved your success that is a a freakishly rare thing what drives that uh i don't want to make mistakes anymore i don't want to mess that up i don't want to mess this up i want to know how this works and um you said i'm the guy that takes the i'm the i was the kid that took the radio or took the i took my dad out of junk lawnmower and i took every bolt out of it and took the engine apart to learn how the engine worked i had to know and i don't know why that was and the next door neighbor was mean. And he's like, you want to learn how a spark plug works?

Oh, man. And he said, here, hold this. And he pulled the lawnmower through and knocked me, fell backward and knocked me back. That's a hard shock right there. It's worse than a light socket. But yeah,

but I'll never touch a spark plug wire again. Nope. I was 10. You'll never listen to a neighbor either. I'll never listen to that guy again about anything. You know, here, pull my finger you know right but the uh but it seems like the idea that i have to know how it works and i i it you know uh this enneagram stuff everybody's studying i you know i i am the quintessential eight uh and eight is a challenger, and I get intimacy by arguing.

I enjoy that. And so Rachel and I just, for sport, argue. We're the worst, the two of us. We do it on the air, and we do it at the Easter table last Sunday, you know. And so, I mean, the rest of them are all just watching, you know, and it's just like, would you shoot? You're just, you know, you're just a conspiracy theory girl. Come on.

So, I mean, it's just, you know, her and her conspiracy theories. But the, yeah, I get intimacy from that. It doesn't, I don't. It's a rare thing. I'm not mad. I'm just inquisitive. Yeah. But sometimes people take that conflict process that I use to get information as anger and like we're going to lose relationship or something over it. No, I don't lose relationship.

That actually increases it. Gotcha. Man, I wish you could. So one of the great relational terms I always want couples to make is going from judgment to curiosity. When he said that thing before you bite his head off, stop and don't judge it and say, hey, tell me what you meant by that or vice versa. You responded to that text from that woman. Before I go off the handle, tell me about it. Or, okay, I want to have this kind of date.

Before you freak out and call your friend. If you could write that book, Dave, I'm telling you, man. Oh, man. Because people cannot. It's a rare thing to enter into, especially when you, quote, unquote, have made it. Right? To say, tell me about that. Instead of just impose will, impose will, impose will.

And that's a thing that I i've um so i love working with you i had art link letter on the air he was here in person before he passed away uh inordinately successful in like three different fields uh people knew him from uh he was a contemporary of walt disney while disney was one of his personal friends and he's telling stories on the air and i was just enamored and he was 88 years old when he was here and he did 78 speaking engagements that year i'm like why why he goes well when you stop learning and growing you are dead whether you do that at 40 or whether you do that at 140. But he said, you might as well stay engaged because there's all kinds of aging data on the brain that says that it is a muscle and it atrophies when you don't use it. And he said, you know, I'm doing 78 speaking engagements and I'm writing another book this year.

And he's 88 years old. And he didn't need to financially he didn't need to from a notoriety standpoint he was an icon at that point uh but it was just to stay engaged and just to continue to grow because if you're not growing you're dying so there's that yeah i just i think that's i think that's one of the greatest things you can one of the greatest gifts you can bestow upon yourself and those around you is that constant, tell me how that works. Let's take that apart. Yeah.

How's that lawnmower work? How does that work? How's that lawnmower work? Here, hold the spark plug. So what makes you a good dad? I know that's a different question. You got grown kids versus little kids. I got an 11-year-old and a 6-year-old.

What makes a good dad or made me one? You. Well, I was not a great dad. I was a good dad. And I got substantially better in time. Just in time. Before the formative years were completely gone and before teenagers needed to be executed.

And so we laughingly say our kids turned out because of the nurturing of their mother and the fear of their father. But obviously they were not afraid all the time, quaking in their boots from me um but we had uh sharon and i both gave them very firm boundaries okay um we did not want to create be disciplinarians to the point that you create stepford children uh my friend andy andrews says you want to raise children who become good adults. You don't want to raise good kids. So you're playing a long game.

And so that, you know, and that affects how if you let them, oh, yeah, step over there. Don't do it. I'm going to let you. And see, there it hurt, didn't it? You know, grab a spark plug wire, right? And so, you know, you learn those lessons permanently when you do that. But you give them enough rope to find it, but not so much rope that they can be permanently damaged and harmed. But they had real firm boundaries. Our kids, but they weren't like, I mean, there's always the kids, and I guess there's a spectrum in the neighborhood.

We had the, you know, you have the hippie parents, I call them, and the kids just run wild. It's anarchy. You know, like the two little boys on what's the wonderful NASCAR thing with Will? Ricky Bobby. Yeah, Ricky. Those two boys, those two kids, that's the anarchy kids, right? Anarchy! You know, and so until grandma comes in and sets them straight. That's kind of how I grew up, you know. But the parents that don't believe in giving their children any boundaries,

and so they raise animals, not humans, not adults. And then there's the parents who put so many boundaries, and they make all their decisions for them that the children develop no critical thinking skills. And they can't make a decision, a moral decision in the moment. They can't make a physical harm decision in the moment because they've never made any decisions ever. And that's the... I call them Stafford children.

I'm thinking of the graduate student parents who would call and ask for homework assignments. And it's like, your kid's 25. What are you doing? Well, we have them call here when their 28-year-old is interviewing. And they want to talk to HR. And we're like, well, I think we settled that. Pretty much not hiring this one. Helicopter mother.

Oh, my God, woman. And so, yeah, there's that. They do everything for him one of my friends as a counselor called them lawnmower parents they not only helicopter for them but they mow out the so they got a clear path so they can walk right straight through and and you know so you they they don't have any muscle structure or uh any bone structure in their character to make a decision with but they also weren't allowed to just run loose. And so there were consequences and moral things as believers, as Christians,

that we demanded. You're not going to do this. And they were physically afraid of violating those boundaries. So what would you go back and do different? I would have been more affirming. I don't mind being tough do different i would have been more affirming i don't mind being tough but i would have been more affirming what does that mean uh i just would have spent more time uh more hugs i did plenty of hugs i did i was like i was there i was emotionally present those kinds of things but i would have been warmer warmer in general

and just by that i mean bragged on them more directly. I did that later as I found it. But, I mean, it would have been like one of our granddaughters' birthday, one of Rachel's daughters' birthday. And we did the happy birthday on Easter. And the whole table, you know, there's 14 of us sitting there, seven kids or six kids and eight adults and everything. And I'm just looking at little Amelia and just speaking into her how wonderful she is and how proud Papa Dave is of her and how smart she is

and how pretty she is, and you're going to be a big deal kid. You're amazing. And just that little 30-second thing, that kid lit up like a bulb, man. And her daddy does that all the time, And her mama does that all the time. Papa Dave did it too, though, this time. And so bragging on myself. But I wish I'd done more of that when mine was that age. Well, so here's how we'll redeem that.

Today I had a conference, like I said, with my kid's school. And I got off that conference. And I just thought, man, what a great little 10, 11-year-old kid. Yeah. And here's what I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have gone home and told him that. And I'm not going to tell him. Yeah.

But I got to peek behind his curtain. Yep. Hands on his face. Touch his face. Look at his eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, he is a great kid. Yeah, he's awesome.

He can shoot a shotgun, too. Yes, he can. We were out shooting clays. That little turkey's popping him man i mean he don't miss he's better shot than his daddy that's a low bar man but all right so here's the last thing um when i was deciding whether to work here i don't even know if you remember this um i had worked with um not in the media world but i'd worked behind closed doors with folks who they call me and say, Hey, Deloney, I'm president of such and such. I'm this and this. I think I've done the thing

that's going to get me in trouble or get me fired. And I need some talk through this with me. One of the most common things that became a, like just, I just started beating this drum years ago and it was, you got to have people the the more successful you are the lonelier you get and so i don't know if you know if you remember this one of the questions i asked you in our interview was who do you listen to who do you hang out with and you rattled off three or four different groups and i left and i remember calling sheila on the way home my wife on the way home and said um dave and i've been can disagree about stuff and i don't even fully know what this job is but i trust him and um but i trust him and because he's got people

speaking to him it's been my experience that there's a shift that happens when you become successful so you get your medical degree and you become a doctor and you have your same buddies from med school and you have your wife's friends or your husband's friends and y'all hang out and then suddenly you buy the practice and then you and two partners buy the other practice and then pretty soon your house gets a little bit bigger and your car gets nicer and then people start going to your house because it's your house not because they're gonna hang out with you And they start waiting for your fill-in-the-blank, your party. You have the coolest Halloween stuff or whatever. And then slowly, those intimate little, hey, bring whatever casserole you got,

whatever half-bottle of wine you got, and come over to my house. Those start going away because they just turn into shows, productions. Have you experienced in your arc a tightening of that circle or a loneliness or you seem to really cultivate people around you i've experienced it um it it has the opportunity to do that and the reason it does that is not because you um uh seek isolation or something but uh everyone goes through an evolution of friends. Yeah. If your only friends when you're 50 are your high school buddies.

That's a problem. Your Uncle Rico on Napoleon Dynamite, okay? I mean, you know, so that's just, you should have outgrown some of those people. And here's this. Or they should have outgrown you or we should have had value-based, you know, disagreements

that don't allow us to have real close, intimate conversations anymore. And this is an important thing to... Like I had buddies that, you know, they're doing cocaine still

and I'm 60. Yes. You know, so they're not my buddies now. Right. I mean, I'm not mad at them. I'm not mean to them.

I don't shame them. But I don't need them hanging out of my house right i remember a buddy of mine became a college president and suddenly we didn't i didn't go to the fights anymore he didn't have us over yeah and i remember thinking that's the rightest smartest thing for this guy to do because deloney's a hothead and especially 15 years ago i'm gonna say something stupid about when i was over it so so he there was a natural evolution on behalf of the of this well i wasn't no yeah but i'm not guarding this place or guarding our lives that's not what i'm saying i'm saying that the the you're gonna have a few people that make it all the way through your life with you and then you're gonna develop new friends as you grow and change that you have intimacy with in terms of an intimate conversation.

I mean, not sexual intimacy. No, no, too much. But the, you know, and so Sharon and I are going to dinner tonight with a couple that we have hung out with for 35 years. So they're on the inside of the inside. They knew Dave Ramsey before there was a Dave Ramsey. They were there when I was going broke. And we're still good friends, but the guy reads like a maniac. I mean, he's not uber business successful, but very successful.

And so I don't go to him for business insights because our scale is different. So that's a guy from way back. But then I'm perfectly content with Henry Cloud is a really good personal friend, and that's happened in the last eight years. Yeah. You know, and not 35-year relationships, an eight-year relationship. But Henry and I email once a week about something, trading some stupid joke or whatever,

and anytime I'm in L.A., we're hanging out, or he's over here, we're hanging out, email once a month once a week about something trading some stupid joke or whatever and um anytime i'm in la we're hanging out or he's over here we're hanging out and he does events with us and we hang out with him and um what's your trust metric when is it a gradual thing or do you go okay definitely and i'm looking uh i'm looking for authenticity i struggle with that authenticity i struggle because i can smell i can smell a fake a mile away. I'm not real discerning on some things. It's easy to lie to me. I've been lied to a lot.

And people get away with it. They want to impress you, right? Well, period. Not just me, but just in general. My ability to detect that's horrible. But my ability to detect a fake, I can walk in the room and just go yeah because i was one uh-huh you're just you know you're just you're just acting like you know just if we could buy you for what you're worth and sell you for what you think you're worth son you'd be something

you know we make some money on you but no they're not he's not a real dude or she's not a real dude i can smell those putting on the dog and the plastic stuff. And I, God, man, just be real. Just go, you know, I'm just, some days suck, some days don't. We're just, you know, let's have some meatloaf, put a little ketchup on it and white beans and cornbread. And, you know, and we'll just sit down here and talk together and hang out. We may laugh about stupid stuff. We may tell 13-year-old boy jokes. We may, whatever. But let's just tell 13-year-old boy jokes.

We may whatever. But let's just, you know, for God's sakes, be real. How do you – I feel like in my life the temptation is to always go home and just shut the door. Do you get energy from being alone or do you get energy from other people? I'm an extrovert. I get energy from other people. Sharing gets energy from being alone, so it keeps from other people? I'm an extrovert. I get energy from other people. Sharing gets energy from being alone, so it keeps us balanced. Okay.

So I don't overdo that. And I don't like the social setting, the classic party where you stand around with a drink in your hand. What do you do? And I don't give a crap. All that stuff, that drives me bananas. But to sit down and hang with people that I love. And the thing I, back to your other question a minute ago, I want to add to it right quick. Because I think it's a principle other people can use.

And I would suggest it. As you grow, don't be afraid to ask people that are slightly or even much more successful than you at a given thing into your life if they're authentic, if they're real. Right. Because you'd be amazed at that all these successful people are really, all success is is a pile of all the mistakes you've made, and you're standing on it rather than laying under it. Gotcha. So they have all climbed a mountain of garbage too and understand you know that they have all shoveled you know the more new levels new devils right that you know they have shoveled manure at levels that you hadn't shoveled it maybe

and they have hurt at levels you haven't hurt they've been betrayed and lied about it maybe at levels you haven't yet and uh don't be afraid to hang out with them if they'll be real. Now, you know, I know people in show business or radio or leadership training or whatever that aren't. They're fakey. But I'm amazed at somebody like at a Henry Cloud level who's sold 10 million books, you know, that a guy like that, or I can name other names. I'll start dropping names. I'm not going to do that. But these guys that are uber successful, they need and want friendship too.

Yes. That's my thing. And so if you just ask, like the first time I did that was 20 years ago, I formed an Eagles group, we called it. And I made a list of men that I knew well and men that I just knew who they were. I knew they had a good marriage. I knew they were walking with God at some level. I knew that they had some level of success in their field.

They were music people. They were pastors of good-sized organizations. They were authors. They were business people of some kind. And I emailed 12 guys, and some of them were like studs. I mean, eagles. And I was like, wow. The fact that I could get their email was kind of like intimidating.

And I asked 12 of them to get together once a week and study the bible or read a book and just talk and be guys together and just create a group of guys for just to love each other and encourage each other and be accountable to over time as we built relationship just a short email like that you know how many of them came the first meeting all of them and these are household names these are if i started naming them off people today you know people would know who i was talking about about nine out of the 12 are household names and uh one of the guys i'm having dinner with tonight you know he's saying he's still that group that group lasted 12 years but i but what my point is is that don't be afraid to invite people into your life that are new, that have the stuff, because they need it too.

And not only do they need it, most of my experience has been they desperately want it. Yeah, they yearn for it. Yeah. And many of us go back to middle school. I don't care how successful we are. I didn't get invited to that, so I'm just going to head home. Yeah. And I'm just going to – I'm good.

I'm cool. And the cars get nicer. Rejection. And the dinners get nicer, but you're still by yourself, right? Yeah. And, man, I would love to be included into a thing. We all want to be included in a thing. Yeah.

But, again, it goes back, Dave. I talk to a single mom. I talk to a dad who just wants to be a better husband. I talked to fill in the blank, fill in the blank, fill in the blank. And the expectation is these things just happen. And what you just described was a highly intentional, I need this. I am valued enough that I need other people. And I'm going to do the work and get these guys' email addresses.

I'm going to set it up. I'm going to go first. It goes back to that. Well, and I knew that as we grew that I would go back to your earlier question that I would go into isolation because I'd be too cool for school potentially and that that's where people crash. That's it. That's when leaders die. This is where leaders go to die. Isolation and arrogance and secret lives off to the side and think that nobody sees this stuff well god sees it and um and you know you're not getting away from it and so i knew uh i have the benefit of a wife who is not impressed at all with dave ramsey i have that same i have the same blessing and so that's a it's a good starting point for accountability and then i had that group of guys and when that group broke up i formed another group with a little different mindset and a little different thing but still

with the same idea of deep relationships with men who will call you out right and so when you know when ramsey's getting hammered in the press you know who's email me those 11 guys. Okay. Six of them will carry my casket. Yeah. And that, man, that's a great one to leave on here. But going all the way back to every single person I've ever met has crashed. Maybe not as spectacularly as you did. Everybody crashes. Everybody messes up. Moral crash is more what I was concerned about. Integrity crash.

No, I'm saying all the way back to your bankruptcy right yeah yeah we all are growing and i don't care how small you think your situation is or how quote-unquote big it is you're in a big building with your name on it it goes back to that intentionality i'm going to surround myself with people who know stuff i don't know because i want to learn i'm going to surround myself people who are going to teach me how to be a better husband, better dad, better business leader, better whatever. I'm going to surround myself with. I'm going to go first and practice friends. And that sounds so dumb, right?

Because when you're a kid, they just shove you. My kids will play with any rando. Our kids hung out with Rachel's kids the other day. It took eight minutes, and then they're off telling stories, and I don't know what they're doing. It's weirder with us, right? With grownups,

we have too many shells and layers and whatnot. It's going first and saying, I deserve to have friends. Well, are so desperate to be impressive that you're not that you impress nobody. Cause you're alone, right? Well,

you're not impressive cause you're fake. Yes. So you're just, you're putting up all this stuff instead of just going, Hey, there's some good here and there's some bad. Get ready, man bringing the casserole yeah it's beautiful well brother thanks for your time it's super valuable honored to have you and listen i'm so proud of what you're doing here thanks man it's absolutely amazing i listen to the podcast on my runs and my walks in the morning

and uh you're taking some weird calls and you're taking some good calls and you're helping a lot of people and i'm so proud of the dr. John Deloney Show and Dr. John Deloney and the help you're giving people. And I'm proud it's part of our team here. Well, I'm grateful for you, man. And for the listeners, there was a moment when I said that exact thing. Dave, I don't know what this job is. And you're asking me to – I'm going to leave something that I've worked for 15, 20 years to do. I've never done this.

And you said, trust me. I knew you could do this. And, man, I'm so grateful that I did. I knew this was going to be big. And it's just begun. Man, it's going to be mamma. It's a silly little thing we're doing here. It's wild, man.

Get ready, baby. Hold on. Well, I'm grateful for you. I appreciate you. It's a bull ride, baby. Hold on. I know. My father-in-law rode bulls, man. He's been telling me that for years. Hold on. Well, I'm grateful for you. Appreciate you. It's a bull ride, baby. Hold on. I know. My father-in-law rode bulls, man.

He's been telling me that for years. All right. Appreciate you, man. Have a good night. You too, brother. Take care. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for sticking around and listening to my interview with my friend and

boss, Dave Ramsey. Listen, I said at the beginning of the show we were not going to have song lyrics of the day. I asked Dave what his favorite songs were, and he was like Eagles and some older songs. Listen, here's his favorite song. It doesn't even have lyrics. It's that Baker Street saxophone song that goes at the beginning, starts at the beginning of every single Dave Ramsey show, every single Ramsey show.

So instead of lyrics of the day, I just gonna I'm just gonna it's gonna I'm just gonna bring it from my heart that's more trumpety than saxophone II I think is that the rest right you sound like the monkey in the Jungle Book doing a trumpet solo. Rude. I'm rocking the Baker Street saxophone. Not a saxophone. It is a saxophone. It's a woodwind. It'll work. It is in the song, but that which you just said was not a saxophone.

I don't even think a trumpet's a woodwind. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. This has been the Dr. John Deloney Show. you