The Dr. John Delony Show - Grief Expert: Why Grief Demands a Witness (With David Kessler)

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

🇺🇸 Watch United States of Anxiety Exclusively on the Free Ramsey Network App! In this episode, John interviews grief expert David Kessler about how to address grief and process emotions on your own timeline. Next Steps: Learn more about David Kessler and resources for grief  Follow David on Instagram 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test  📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future  ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭 John's Free Guided Meditation  🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors:  🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🌿 Get up to 40% off at Cozy Earth with code DELONY. 🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne.  🥤 Get 20% off at Organifi with code DELONY.  🏔 Head to Poncho Outdoors to check out all their styles!     Listen to More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights   🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy https://www.ramseysolutions.com/company/policies/privacy-policy

MUSIC I'm gonna be a little tougher coach. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. What's up? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Delaney show. I'm so glad you're with us. We're talking about your emotional and mental health, your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life. I'm gonna sit here.

I'm gonna sit with you. We're gonna figure out what's the next right move. On today's episode, we have a second part of one of my favorite conversations I've ever had with one of my heroes, the great David Kessler. David Kessler is a world renowned expert on grief and nobody likes to talk about grief, but grief impacts every single person living and breathing right now, including you and including me.

And we have to grieve the big things, the small things, and we have a grief illiterate world, as he says. And so in this part two, we're talking about grief demanding a witness, something that I've been saying forever and ever, and I got the line from him, and so much more. So I've got his book here by the way, The Sixth Stage of Grief Workbook for anyone who's struggling and we'll link to it in the show notes. So check out the second part of my

conversation with the great David Kessler right here. The most powerful line you've given me is grief demands a witness. Grief demands a witness. Every civilization, every faith community and all of human history have had a moment where people sit down and say, tell me your story. And so often like I lost my husband lost my husband, stop, what was his name? Like we're going to tell the story. There's something so powerful.

Let me ask you this. You manage these amazing global online grief communities. I have made the case, and tell me if I'm wrong, that in many ways storytelling, being with, if you will, digitally is like Twinkies. It's calories, but it's not rich food. Is there a, have you noticed a difference between in-person and online? I started there. Okay. I mean, listen, I love being wrong. So tell me if I'm wrong. When the pandemic hit, people were like, you got to move online. And I was like, I don't know that emotions translate. And one of my buddies said, Have you

ever seen a movie? Oh, gosh, yes. Oh, all right. Yeah. Now here's the thing. On a zoom call, I see your face just like this. I mean, I wish I could tell you. see your face just like this. I mean, I wish I could tell you. I mean, look, if you came in and you smelled bad, I wouldn't know it on a Zoom. But every other thing, I get every little expression. And here's the thing, you know, people go when they hear there's a grief group, they go, oh, I don't want to be online with six people. I'm like, no, no, there's hundreds. There's hundreds. And the shocking thing about it is there's some people who are like, hey, I got a question. I went, you've asked a question yesterday. Like, let's have, you know, but there's other people who are in the back, have never turned their zoom on. They've never, you know, you can be

anonymous or you can be in the front row. And one of the things that's shocking about it is, I do topics, we do check-ins, and I do one-on-ones. And in the one-on-ones, it's me and that person, and hundreds of people are watching it. They don't get seen in that moment. We find each other in each other's stories. And we find our healing in each other's stories. I mean, I get tons of emails of people who go, oh my gosh, that person asked the question I didn't even know was the question I had that was the one I needed for my healing. Like, I would have never even thought to ask that, and they did, and you went there and you healed them, and I go, I didn't heal them, they healed

them, and you found your healing in them and then in yourself. So I think it does work. It does work. I think it does work. All right. Well, thank you for changing my mind on that. I am never going to be face to face with people in Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, and all over the US.

And it's like such... And boy, let me tell you, when there's... Sometimes I'll do these free online events, we have 40,000 people. Right, right, right. You talk about how universal grief is, that like, I speak the same language. Wait, you're in rural Alaska?

You haven't seen another person in weeks? Yeah. And yet, You heard and yet we're connected. You hurt too. Yeah. I guess, man, listening to you talk about that makes me think I am in charge of food distribution after a huge traumatic weather event, and I hold back the food because it's not, you know, Michelin star quality. People are hungry, let's get food. Let's get food. And let's

not negotiate calories right now. Look, I tell people, like, if there's an amazing grief group down the block at your church, you don't need us. And I'll tell you, grief is overwhelming and exhausting, that it's like people are like, oh no, I need the church group, I need your group, and I need my counselor, and I need my clergy, and it's still barely enough to hold me together. The answer should be yes. Yeah.

Especially in our world, we're so lonely, right? We don't have regular groups of people in our lives just as a way of being to help. And people in those groups, the first question I ask, you come on, you start to talk, and I go, how long has your loved one been dead? And I tell the group, and here's why I'm asking, there is no timeline in grief. But if you are, it's a week ago, it's a month ago, I'm sitting there witnessing being there sitting with you in compassion. You're four years in and you aren't getting out of the house or you're not getting back in relationships or

you're not living life, I'm going to be a little tougher coach. There you go. Yeah. You know, like there's different moments. There's not one size fits all. Yeah. I often tell folks who just experienced loss, you probably will not remember this conversation. I want you to remember you

exhaled once, right? And I want you to remember that. You're not gonna remember the exact, in fact, they used to tell us bring a brochure or something because no one's gonna remember. They can't, that's okay. What do you tell the person who is sitting not so much in the loss moment yet, but it's not fair moment. Luckily, I had so many teachers to draw on. You know, I'm a reserve specialist with my local police department. I ran a group for police officers whose children died by suicide with the officer's gun. Wait, wait, you're protecting our world? You're showing up in a dangerous world?

And your child died? Oh, that doesn't make cosmic sense to me. Right. It's extra not right. It's extra not right. You know, there's so many situations like that, that I would sit with people. I remember there was a couple that came to a retreat. and I think I even wrote about them in there, whose two-year-old daughter went out with grandma in New York and they're sitting on a bench and a random brick falls and kills the child. I'm sorry, what?

What? What? Like a random brick? And here's the thing about this. I worked with her on her anger. And I remember she kept saying, I can't say it. I can't say it. And we're in a room with hundreds of people.

And I said, what if you just said it? What if we understood it and you said it? And she goes, I hate old people. And I go, okay, good. Let's, let's release the shame of that. And there were some people who are a little older in the room. And I said, I wonder, could you like really scream this out or hit the pillow or whatever? Could you release this anger? And she goes, I can't. And I said, we're going to do it with you.

And I had the room going, we hate old people. And like to hear it, it would have sounded crazy. Right. Right. And then she fell down in tears as she released it. And then the truth was spoken. You don't really hate old people. You hate that we live in a world that this person got 80 years and says they're not that happy.

And your daughter got two years. You're not angry at old people. You're angry at the unfairness of the world. So yeah, the grief expert's son dies, someone, and she's in the faith community. A brick falls, a police officer, this is our world. Now, one of the things when we look at the psychological world, personalization does not help us. Death is the most personal thing that happens. When you're getting a divorce, feels pretty personal. And then you have to go, the betrayal, the divorce, it actually isn't about me.

It's happening to me, but it's not about me. I don't believe there is a God that looked down and went, David Kessler, I'm going to get him. I'm going to, ooh, this is, That's not the God that I believe in. Correct. I don't think there was a personal nature to it. And it's the most personal, brutal thing that's happened to me. And I don't think that that brick chose that girl. I don't think those, I think this is a life where loss happens, tragedy happens, period.

That hurricane is not picking the houses. Right, it is. It just is, it just is. So those are like, those are nuances to get to. I would never get to these nuances with someone newly in grief, but we're talking nuances. Yeah. And we're also, I think the meta here for me is we are story making creatures. Correct.

And on the back end of something so horrific, once I'm able to breathe, I get to pick the story that I write next. Correct. And one of those stories will imprison me forever. Right. I get to pick the story that I write next. Correct. And one of those stories will imprison me forever. Right. And one of those stories will set me free. And you may have been victimized, but it does not have to be a final victim story.

Right. And in fact, power is I'm not letting you victimize me anymore. Correct. And I'm not going to victimize myself by living that story after the traumatic event has happened. Right. I always say bad enough this stuff happened once. Like who wants to relive it every day? Yes.

Which means there's a, I hate to use this word because it's unpopular, there's a choice. Right. And that's why, you know, we were talking about this book, this workbook, is because I always say to people, like, someone goes, I was told I have to talk to you and do my grief work. What's grief work? And I'm like, I'm going to take the tools and techniques

that I've been teaching coaches and therapists for years and put them in a workbook, like we're sitting at your kitchen table, and I'm walking you through some things. Now, as you know, my teacher was Kubler-Ross, with the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I hear her always telling me, tell them they're not linear. There's no model. There's not linear. We like said that till, you know, we're just blue in the face. I know, but that's just the only way that new scientists have to try to reduce our right. You know, and look, you know, crazy. There was a big study at Yale that said, you know, shut up, it helps. There was a big study at Yale that said, you know, it's not denial, it's disbelief.

Just shut up, just shut up. I'm like, okay, tomatoes, tomatoes. You know who does those studies, and this is me being critical, it's people who don't regularly sit with hurting people. Cause you know who doesn't care to parse somebody who just lost their kid or somebody whose marriage just blew up.

They don't lose a disbelief. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And you know, we just sit with hurting people. Right, right. And it really is many times it's the academic world. I got to tell you people go, which is the right grief model for I'm like, no one in grief ever says to me, which, which model, I mean, look, people sit with me and they go, I heard of you, you were taught by Kubler-Ross, I

love the stages, I hate the stages, they're wrong, I'm like, so tell me, like, It's good to meet you, tell me what your name is. Yeah, I'm not like, we're not even going to, and Kubler-Ross was that way. On our book, like page one, We said, please let go of that But you know to me when I wrote about meaning the first reaction from people when they hear meaning is There's no meaning in a horrible divorce betrayal death murder. I of course not Meanings in us. It's what we do

after next it's what we do after. It's what we do after. I find the biggest thing I wrestled with was acceptance. We think there's one big acceptance. There's a million of them. And I just want to see if I can find this for you here, just to take in this. Because people go, I know I'm trying to accept it, and they're just sort of like, they're just wrestling with finding a big acceptance.

I wanted to break this down. Let me just give you a few of these. If I truly accepted this death, and that could mean the death of the marriage, the death of betrayal, the death of trust. If I truly accepted this death, one thing I would change would be, okay? If I truly accepted this death, I would stop. You know, would that be revolving in my mind? If I truly accepted this death, I could finally,

I mean, I have a co author of this book. It's the person that's going to write it. Like, I want to help you tease out the places where you have accepted, where you can't accept, where you're, you know, I mean, I was just at a conference and, you know, a woman bought three books and she said, this is for the me today, this is for me in three months, this is the me in six months and in a year. Yes. Like, she knows it's all going to keep changing and she's going to keep growing. And the fact that she knows she's going gonna keep changing and she's gonna keep growing. And the fact that she knows she's gonna keep changing

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my experience tells me that grief may be postponed, but it can't be eradicated. I'm often talking about the importance of markers, ceremonies, and people often raise an eyebrow to me when they say, hey, I don't want to take my 12 year old to the funeral. And I say, no, no, no, no, they have to go. Right? Or when they say, when I say, you think you've been in a, you've been in a rough, abusive marriage, it's going to shock you the day your attorney sends you the paper and says, it's over.

Plan a small funeral. Write a letter to your seven-year-old self that says, I'm sorry that dad did that to you. Will you talk about the importance of markers and of ceremony, of action towards this period at the end of a sentence. Yeah. First of all, you mentioned kids. I have to just start with children. We are a grief-illiterate world in general.

We are unbelievably grief-illiterate when it comes to our children. I mean, people will tell me, you know, oh, you know, the other day, the goldfish died, and, you know, our six-year-old was so sad. And I go, what'd you say? And they'll go, oh, we flushed it down the toilet, and we told them it swam to the ocean. And I'm like... You just stole from them. You missed an opportunity.

Well, I don't want to inflict pain. And I went,, you missed an opportunity. Well, I don't want to inflict pain. And I went, let me tell you, you are teaching them that if you cross the street without looking, pain will happen. And you want to spare them that pain by giving them information about the experience. Your child, 100%, like the stats are in, 100% is gonna go through loss this lifetime. They're gonna go through breakups, they're gonna go through stuff,

they're gonna go through loss, boyfriends, girlfriends, break up with them, stuff's gonna happen, and you're not going to teach about that? You're gonna skip, well, when they're older, I'm like, what are you going to do when they're older, sacrifice a dog? I mean, people go, but when do I begin teaching? When the goldfish dies, when the neighbor dies, when grandpa, that is the moment. Like, when life happens is when you teach. So I want to tell a quick story.

A buddy of mine had a, in my life, it's been the most adjacent, horrific experience ever with the loss of a child. And fast forward several years later, I've got a four year old, my boy's four years old and his dog dies. I took I took the dog the dog was very very sick took the dog to put the dog down and they come in and they put the dog down and I wasn't particularly close with this dog I was just being the dad and we were going out to his ranch he had a ranch on

Texas and they put the dog down and then they take the dog and I come to find out they take the dog and all the dogs to a local incinerator in the city and there we go. And something didn't sit right and I hadn't connected the dots and so I called this buddy and said, hey, I'm at the vet. I'm putting my dog down before I come out and I know my son and my wife are already out there. I have a weird feeling about this. Would it be weird if I brought the dog out there? Me and my son buried it out at your place out

in the woods. Long pause. And in his classic very Texas rancher way, he said, if you don't take this opportunity to teach your son about loss, you were failing him as a father. And okay. And I went out there and we had to, it was a whole rigmaroo for them to let me take the dog, the dog's body. We got out there, there was a small shovel and a big shovel that my buddy had leaned up against a tree. And then later on, maybe two or three days later, I got an email.

He said, I don't believe in capturing holy moments on film. So feel free to delete this. But there is a picture and it's off in the distance of me and my four year old digging a hole. And it's the most sacred photo I have. But more importantly than a photo is shortly thereafter, my granddad died shortly thereafter, my grandmother died shortly photo is shortly thereafter my granddad died Shortly thereafter my grandmother died shortly thereafter shortly thereafter The reference point for my four-year-old to anchor himself into love and ancient anchor himself into his own body But also absorb loss all came back to that goofy dog And so I thought oh my The greatest gift I gave my child is to be with him in

that moment. Right. And now we can go remember the dog. This is like granddad. Right. Remember the dog? That's like grandmother. Remember the dog? Those rituals. It's so I always say when people go, I don't understand that. I'll go, think of it this way. When we have a birthday party, we get together and happy birthday is another way we say, I love you. And now that grandpa's died or the dog died, we gather again at the end to say, I love you. That gathering goodbye is another way we say, I love you. That gathering, goodbye, is another way we say I love you. And I'll

tell you, I don't know that I've talked about this on a podcast, just it came up for me, so I'll say it. When my son died, my older son, Richard, I knew this was going to happen. And I have an amazing goddaughter who is the epitome of elegance. I mean, she went to school in London. She is naturally elegant in a way I will like when I'm with her, I'm like, which fork? No one's ever used those words to describe me. She was always so elegant. When my younger son David died, we're at the funeral. We're done.

And all of a sudden, the cemetery folks descend with the shovels and they're going to, you know, pack the dirt on the grave. And of course my older son Rich goes, no, no, no, no, no. That's me. He's going to do it. And then, like, I knew that would be him. And then in her most gorgeous black dress, my goddaughter picked up a shovel.

And I'm like, that's like a ritual that's like unforgettable, you know? And it's that saying goodbye. And you wouldn't think shoveling is a way to say goodbye and I love you. And one thing just to say, just since we're here about pet loss. After David died, I don't know, probably eight, nine months later, sweet dog of 17 years. Of course it did. Of course. And people want to go, well, clearly that didn't count after David's death or which was the worst, and I'm like, folks, there is no worst in this. These are two horrible events. They are two loves.

I don't need to find a hierarchy so you can organize this in your brain. These are horrible events. A divorce is a horrible event for the person getting divorced. Betrayal is, pet losses. If the grief is real, if the love is real, the grief is real. There is no hierarchy in loss. Let that go. Oh man. And we could go down a whole route. Thank you for sharing that. Sure.

There's, there's, I think that's, my personal belief is those are things that our bodies adapted over millions of years to learn how to process. And we have just outsourced all of it. Right. Even my grandmother's house had a room called the parlor, right? And now the Emmy van shows up, takes the body away. They take care of it.

I get 30 minutes and I get maybe an open casket and then it's over. And all of that grief stays here. And I believe in my guts, there's something about shoveling, there's something about movement, there's something about that process that we've just stolen from ourselves. Emotions need motion. Yeah. Oh, I like that. Say that again. Emotions need motion. Ooh, I like that. I'll tell you, we feel bad every time we're giving tips, we say, you gotta go walk. And it's like, we go, we can't recommend walking again. And then a study comes out that says how walking is so amazing. And we're like, we feel like simplistic, like for God's

sakes, we can't keep saying, walk. Write a letter and go for a walk, man. Yeah. So, but it needs, and just that, this workbook, That's it, that's it, that's it. is taking the pain out of you and putting it on the paper. Yes. Let yourself see your pain on the paper. How do you talk to somebody who experiences grief because they've got cancer and they're

being betrayed by their own body, or they have some sort of heart challenge. They've got a and they're being betrayed by their own body or they have some sort of heart challenge They've got a child with special needs. They've got a marriage that somebody violated the marriage and they're gonna work on it, but Like there's always gonna be sign of a crack in the foundation that's been that you can only see the repair How do you teach somebody to grieve something that is still present in real time? Really what we're grieving is a picture of what we wanted to be true that no longer is true. Correct. You know, that is really sitting with the imperfections of life.

We wanted a perfect marriage. That's gone. It is. That's gone. That's gone. That's gone. Okay. And, you know, whether there's, there's a million analogies out there, whether it's the broken vase, sure, that, you know, the vase can be put back together, whether it's a broken bone becomes stronger after the break. You know, I, this is a really hard one. Would I rather have a perfect good marriage or a real one? And I think I opt for perfect good, but that doesn't seem to be possible.

I mean, we're all going to have... We're going to hurt people. Like listen, everyone I know struggles with something. I promise you, everyone who has the perfect marriage, there's something there. Doesn't. You know, and look, it may not be the biggest infidelity, but there's something there. You know, all relationships, it's all pretty imperfect.

And when we can allow that, and it kind of goes back to, you know, like I need to keep up with the Joneses, no, you don't. No, you don't. It's all kind of imperfect to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it is the experience of life. I mean, I always try to opt for authentic over good. Hmm.

Yeah. Or over great. We think we'd like great. That's truth over mirage, right? Yeah. Right, but I'd rather have something that's real. Hmm. You know, and one of the things that I... I'd like to have something that's real. And one of the things that I, it's funny because it was an Oprah producer that did this for

me. I used to call, you can imagine this, I used to get the pre-interview calls and they would hear me, talk to me, and then they'd go, thanks very much, and they would not choose me. Same producer. And I remember finally saying to this producer, and she changed my life. I said, why do you never choose me? And she said to me,

because you're the grief expert. And I said, I don't understand. And she goes, David, before we get to the pitch you're making, I really like you. And you don't understand. We don't want to know the grief expert. We want to sit down and have a beer with our buddy that just happens to know a lot about loss.

And when you can let go of the illusion that you're our expert, we'll connect with you. Oh my gosh, what a favor she did for me. Because she was really saying, because I was like early in my career, she was like, dude, take the suit off, let it go, like just be you. And that's life.

I had that same gift here. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I found is my answers, my academies, was a suit of armor. Right. It's the way I protected my, look how smart I am, look how smart I am. And one woman one time in a sighting line said,

you know you're the big brother we've never had. And I was like, that's the greatest compliment I've ever received in this world, right? Is I'll tell you the truth and you know I love you. All right, it's both hands. Hey everybody, listen to this. Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe is having an end of year sale going on right now.

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With Helix, better sleep starts right now. I have found it easier to grieve. God's who got a bigger plan or Loss just happened or I don't understand cancer. It just is right I have learned to grieve and that right what I personally continue to struggle with is No, I did say that. I did hurt that person. How do you grieve loss, relationship breakups?

How do you grieve death when you did play a role? And I'm thinking of the parent who, here's where it comes to me most. There's an alcoholic abusive parent. The other parent didn't intervene in a way. And there's some sort of cascading event that ends up in their children experiencing some sort of poor relationship or addiction or some sort of challenge down the road. And as they heal and they begin to put two and two together, they say, I didn't protect my kid from that abuser. I kept inviting that man into our home.

Or I, right, how do you grieve when you did play a role? It's a huge question. Our mind would always rather be guilty than helpless. You want to blame... So it's about power. Everything on that moment. Someone died because of that moment. The betrayal happened because of that moment. Whatever. You know, that was the moment. Most moments are complex with a lot of different factors. Now, for your one moment, if I was working with that person in the one moment, we would talk about the decisions you made were probably out of your wounds.

Doesn't excuse you, doesn't let you off the hook from anything. They were out of your wounds, they were out of your wounds, doesn't excuse you, doesn't let you off the hook from anything. They were out of your wounds, they were out of your fears, they were out of the lowest part of you. You know, you've made mistakes, but so have I. And so that's where we have to begin. And then we also have to begin forgiveness. Forgiveness, yeah. And that's just simply the practice of saying, I'm not going to carry that anymore.

It's a lot of work. I often say forgiveness starts with a 30 day practice. Yeah. Like people like, I thought it and it didn't work. I'm like, that's not how forgiveness works. No, I use that word all the time. You've got to practice. It's a practice, it's a practice.

Yeah. Okay. I have so much in here about guilt. I know. I know. There's like four different exercises I take. It's the biggest chunk of the book. Okay. And people can go right to this book. They don't have to have bought the original. They go right to this. Okay. All right. Last one. Yeah. So I am working through finding meaning years ago. Yeah. And I read this part and I literally slammed it down. And I thought, David's right. And I don't like what you're saying.

Great. Great. And yet this is me on the heels of years of working through what I think has become my, it's the greatest challenge. I think it's a gift and it's also one of my greatest challenges, which is what I would call empathetic rumination. I will sit on a feeling or a thing I've done and I will loop and I will loop and I will loop and I will, my body will

go back to that thing I said in seventh grade to that girl who said, I like you. And I embarrassed her in front of everybody. I still can feel that right now, how I hurt her. I can still go back to the things I've done and said to my wife that still haunt me to the things I've said to myself. I can live in it. And then you had the audacity. Yeah. What I say, God, what did I say? Let's hear it. And then you had the audacity. Yeah, what I think, what did I say? Let's hear it. To come out and write and so honest and truthful with practice, you can control your thoughts. And at the end of the day, that parent who is just eating breakfast in that lightning bolt of that picture of their child in the casket. They can't control that lightning bolt, but they can control every thought after that.

Or the person who finds out, you know, accidentally somebody's text message pop up on the family iPad and there's some pretty gratuitous texts between your husband and his mistress. And that image flashes with him in bed with somebody else and it can't get out of your head. The idea that, yeah, it can. And the idea that like it is heartbreaking that they betrayed you in that affair, that night, those years, whatever it is, it's equally heartbreaking that you betray yourself every day. It pisses me off. And you replay it.

You replay it. No one betrays me like I betray myself. Now, here's the thing about this. When we talk about this, people go, wait, wait, but trauma, you don't have control. Absolutely. The images are going to pop up. You can't control those horrible things that are going to pop up. You control how long you stay there.

How long you linger. I'll give you another example. A woman said to me, David, it's been five years. I cannot get the picture out of my mind of my child in the casket. And I go, of course, of course you can't. Of course you can't. But it doesn't have to be where you live. I said, how often do you picture it? And she goes, every time my phone rings.

And it was her screen saver. Oh gosh. And I was like, oh dear one, dear one, there's some help here. There's some hope, dear one. That's the, you're keeping that horrific moment that does not define your child. Their death does not define them. So we have control over the images on our phone and the images in our mind. We have control. So you mentioned something in this book and it's an exercise that I think is incredibly

instructive and it's one of the classic gurus and I remember if it was, Adler is the one that comes to mind but I remember a really profound statement that was, I thought if I took away my clients or patients anxiety and depression that they would be healed. And what I found is when I just took away their anxiety and depression, they were empty. And I love the exercise that you give that it's not a matter of just saying, stop thinking about that, but it's the affirmative practice. I am going to have a picture on my phone of my child laughing their head off if

I have chosen to stay in a marriage and rebuild something from the ground up after betrayal I'm gonna put a picture of us dying laughing together on my phone. I have a picture of a really lovely Memory of when I showed up for my wife So that when I'm sad and I haven't eaten well and I'm not sleeping and I'm exhausted and that hungry angry that lightning bolt of oh yeah remember when it's always when I'm counseling somebody I'm sitting with somebody on how to be a good husband and it's like who do you think you are it's that right oh I got a picture to replace it and if I want my spouse to be committed to a healthy marriage, a healthy relationship, I can't

stay committed to the betrayal. I got to go all in and risk getting hurt again. Absolutely. That's the only way. It's the only path. And that's the grace. And that's the grace. It's the grace and it's your only shot at a healthy relationship. We know how many of us take the

bricks of the ruined moment in the relationship and try to use those bricks to rebuild the next relationship. But similar, you can stay graveside watching your daughter, your goddaughter shovel dirt. You can stay there. Graveside, watching your daughter, your goddaughter shovel dirt, you can stay there. Or I can say, she just had a baby. I can watch, she just had a baby. There's new life, absolutely horrible death, and there's new life. And I want to be present for both. I want to grieve fully and live fully. Some of us know how to attend to the grieving

and not the living. Some of us know how to live and not attend the grief. I want to know how to do both. On behalf of my family and my friends and ancestors that I'm trying to bring peace to their grandkids, thank you. Oh, grandkids. Thank you Thank you for dedicating your life to this Your I'm always nervous about people's body energy when they write something great and you meet them it's a little bit

Thank you for just being a graceful person. Oh, it's a blessing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you You're one of my people I like I love watching you. I love listening to the podcast You're one of my people. I like, I love watching you. I love listening to the podcast. You're a gift. Thank you, my brother. And I wish you wish you much grace and then can't wait to get you back. Thank you. I agree. Hey folks, the colder weather is finally here and that means I'm wearing more flannel and denim shirts from the only shirt maker I wear, Pancho, the world's best performance shirts for men.

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of a button down shirt. Go to ponchooutdoors.com, use code DELONISHOW. All right that was my conversation with the great David Kessler. If you're watching this on YouTube, you saw that I was taking notes throughout the entire conversation and if you were listening to it, I hope that you learned a lot too. And if you're watching, I hope you learned a lot also. All of his stuff, his books, his website, everything is linked in the show notes. And again, I've got his Finding Meaning workbook, Working Through the Six Stages of Grief.

And there is a fake one going around on the internet. And so I told him that I would let all you all know that there's a fake one on the internet. If you get online to buy Finding Meaning, the sixth stage of grief workbook, make sure it's actually by David Kessler. Thank you everyone who joined us for this two-part conversation and I can't wait to see you all soon right here on the Dr. John DeLoney show.