The Dr. John Delony Show - How Do I Tell My Kids He’s Not Their Father?

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

On today’s episode, we hear about: ·      A couple wondering how to break big news to their kids without hurting them ·      A woman unsure how to overcome negative feelings toward her in-law ·      A wife struggling to cope with her husband’s busy schedule Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test  📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future  ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭 John's Free Guided Meditation  🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at BON CHARGE. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.  🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi.  💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne.  🏋️ Go to trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights   🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do I tell my kids that they were conceived with fertility treatments using donor sperm and that their dad is not their biological father? Ah, I'm going to sit with your 21-year-old one day and they're going to say if they lied about this, then they probably lied about everything else. What in the world's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney show. I hope you're doing well. It's been a rough week, if I'm being honest with you, there's lots going on, personal life, friends and family.

And just, um, just know, just know this show is about real people going through real stuff and I'm not immune to it either. And so just know that I'm in it with you and I'm a dad trying to do the next right thing. I'm a husband trying to figure out how to do that well. And I'm a son and a brother and a sister and a grand kid. And I'm just trying to do that stuff right. And it's hard, man.

It's messy out there. And I think that's the origin of this show is always dreaming that I had something I could sit with and sometimes it is sometimes I didn't and that's my commitment to you guys I'll be here. I know a lot of you are struggling with stuff and there's nobody to call and that's what this show is about your mental and emotional health your relationships your friends going through hard stuff family stuff whatever you got going on. That's my promise. Give me a buzz. 1-844-693-3291. If you're a thousand years old, that calls toll free. If you don't know what the words toll free mean, that means you're probably born in this century. Or go to johndelaney.com slash ask

A-S-K. Kelly, do you remember when we used to have to have a long distance card to call anybody that wasn't in our area code? Oh my gosh. I had not thought of that in forever, but I, yeah. Like when I went to college my freshman year, I had a calling card memorized, just a number memorized so I could punch in 16 digits to then call a friend. When I moved here from Texas, my mom got me a calling card so I could call home. So you youngsters, listen, if the number had a different area code, you had to pay by the minute to talk to them, which meant they had to be a smoke show.

Right? Or in Kelly's case, they had to maybe be a potential make out partner. Otherwise that call is not happening. What does that mean? I was talking to myself and I just saw you. Or if you, once cell phones came out, you only talked to them after nine. After nine because it was free. But every text message, you pay text by the minute. Like you'd be like, I'm out of text for the month. Right.

That's bananas. I remember that you text and you look up and see how many, like, dang it, I got like 10 days left and no text. Jeez, man. Now you can just chat GPT architectural drawings or something, I don't know what's happening in the world, but oh my gosh, I'm so glad y'all are with us. Let's go out to Orlando, Florida and talk to AMY.

What's up, Amy? Hi, Dr. John. How's it going? Good, it's awesome to talk to you. You too, what's happening? Well, my question is, how do I tell my kids that they were conceived with fertility treatments using donor sperm and that their dad is not their biological father? Ah, how old are they?

11 and 13. Who's having the biggest trouble with this conversation? You or your, are you married? Yes. And so do they know their dad, the guy who's raised him, do they know him for their whole life? Yes. He's on the birth certificate. He's their father since birth.

Excellent. Okay. So who's having the biggest problem with it? I don't think either one of us are having a problem with it. It's just We just don't know how to approach this subject, you know It's not a question of if we should tell them we want to We want them to hear it from us not find out by chance someday doing a DNA test. Yes And those are becoming ubiquitous. They yeah, your your instincts are right. They 100% will find out.

Right. Yes. And back when we were going through this, it wasn't really, I mean, we thought about that future, but it was more that we just deeply wanted the kids and we were going to make our family this way. But now we know for sure they are going to find out someday and we want them to hear it from us. Which is so noble and I'm glad that's your disposition.

Do you have biological kids by any chance? My husband has two from a former marriage and I have one as well from a previous relationship. Okay. This is going to sound strange, but I think that might help facilitate the conversation. Your kids have a picture in their head of different kinds of families. Yes. And different ways people take on the name dad or take on the name mom, and different people coming in and out of their life with different levels of influence, right?

Yes. So how old are they again? Say that again. 11 and 13. This is super unhelpful, so I'm saying this to the people listening. I probably would have had that conversation begin, began it earlier. But we're here.

And so I think, I think as soon as y'all are ready, I think the, the, the distincting lot, the distinction line, the, the sentiment I want y'all to land on is anybody can father a child. Their dad stepped up and decided he chose them. And that is the double down, triple down, quadruple down I always want to go back to. I chose y'all. And if they ask questions, you can talk about how, I mean, you can get with a 13 year old and an 11 year old, you can get pretty graphic, right?

Have you all talked about sex? Do they know about that? It's not weird or anything, is it? No, the older one, he's beginning puberty. So we've had that talk. Okay. I would recommend strongly that that not be a talk, that that just be discourse in your house

and your 11 year old is probably a hundred miles down the road from where y'all think he is. From what he knows, is that he or she, I just assumed that he, that yeah, he probably has an idea that from the bus or from his older brother on how stuff works. And so here's how I would have a conversation. I would say, I have to talk to you about some big news and that we have a special family

and y'all know that because dad had kids, you know, they're step brothers and sisters with this other person. I had a kid with this other person and when we got together, we decided to make a family in another way. And here's how this works. And you can talk about, you know, you all know how sex works, the penis goes into the vagina and the sperm meets the egg and we make a kid. Some awesome medical researchers have figured out how to do that outside.

And so why didn't their dad, why didn't he participate? Did he have a vasectomy? He had had a vasectomy and then we had planned to reverse it, which we tried, but it was unsuccessful. Okay. I'm going to be honest. I would have that conversation with an 11 and 13 year old. Okay.

I don't think that's too much. It might be too much if you all have, if sex is in your house is something that you'll never ever, ever talk about, that would be too much at one time probably. But if there is a discourse of we're an open family, we're funny, we laugh, we joke, we poke fun, this and that, and then here we go, here's this, that's a different, you'll have a different context already. So if you don't have that, you're going to have to build some context.

We definitely have a good relationship as far as we can speak freely about things. We are conservative Christians. So I think there's some of that, that some of the sex talk isn't open every day. They're pretty sheltered in what they watch and I'm not, you know, I know that they've seen things or heard things, but... And what I would tell you is the idea that you're a conservative Christian amplifies the need that they get open and direct and they understand their bodies are awesome and that sex is amazing.

Like, does that make sense? Yes. Because if you're not a conservative Christian, if you don't subscribe to that value system, you're getting from the outside world how amazing sex is and oh my gosh, check this out, whatever. Because what I've done for the last 20 years is deal in the aftermath of kids who get to college, kids who graduate college,

kids who try to start their lives and nobody ever had any conversation with them and they find themselves in nightmare scenarios. And so I would say if you subscribe to, if your value system is anchored in conservative Christian-ness, your house needs to be the most sex positive place on planet Earth. Where they hear about it, they talk about it, they know mom and dad are doing it, they know mom and dad love it, and also it's bounded by a context, right? There's a time and a place.

And so that's neither here nor there. That's a whole other conversation. But I would sit down and have that conversation and they are going to take their cues from you. If you are awkward and you're scared and nervous, they will understand that what they're being told beyond beneath the words of what they're being told is somehow something they should

be ashamed, nervous, frustrated, scared about. If you all fully sit down and own this as two adults who made an adult decision because you wanted so badly them too in their life, in your life, they will have their world shifted, right? They're not going to understand biology versus whatever. So I have another dad, then no, no, no. I will always be your dad, always. But yes, an anonymous person contributed the sperm part. So biology wise, you have an anonymous father

and that's a choice we made. But this is your dad, has been your dad, will always be your dad. And he chose y'all. That's, you gotta keep doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on that line. He chose you. Okay.

Are you familiar with any data on kids or families like mine? Like from a child development perspective and all that? No, I don't have any data in front of me. The only data, I would call it AN anic data which is just my lived experience is sitting with 19 and 20 year olds who just find out right and what it does i just don't want to mess them up well what's going to mess them up is feeling like there's something wrong or secretive about their existence okay um and y'all you and your husband husband are gonna have to make peace with the fact that, A, for medical purposes, they're probably gonna wanna know.

Mm-hmm. Right? Because they're gonna have to fill out questionnaires. Do you have any cancer in your background, in your family history? Or do you have any liver issues in your family history? And they're gonna wanna know. Right. And they need to know that stuff.

And with the If they can't already they will be able to contact their original father at some point. I mean their bio father Just technology surpassed us all So you're you can read those stories that pop up where somebody's got a thousand bio kids across the world, right? um, that's that's the world you've inhabited and And so my fear for you is you're gonna try to, you're gonna try to manage the info in a way that you withhold things. Please don't do that because here's what happens. I'm gonna sit with your 21 year old one day

and they're gonna say, if they lied about this, then they probably lied about this, then they probably lied about everything else. And so I'd rather them deal with uncomfortable information from an anchored in honest, direct, loving, caring parent, a regulated adult, not somebody who did something and they're nervous about it or scared about it or whatever. But yeah, here's what we did. We went and got a sperm donor

because we wanted you guys and dad had had a surgery. They're 11 and 13, right? We're gonna talk their language so they feel safe. And it's like, but we tried and didn't work. So there's just amazing new technology that allows somebody who has dedicated their life to helping couples have kids that aren't able to have kids. And we don't even know who the name is.

But it's not something you're going to shy and be like, and we're so sorry, we're not going to do any of that kind of stuff. Because I don't want them walking away from this with their entire world upside down and them thinking somehow their existence is bathed in shame. Y'all made a choice. Is what it is what it is. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that's great. And if you... I recognize my family's different. I'm just thinking of a conversation we had last night about the planets. And you can imagine I was making jokes about Uranus and just like, again, my family's different. I understand that. It's probably too far the other way. But if there's parts of the conversation that you, your husband says, Hey, I need to talk

to the boys for a second and we're gonna invite you back in. And he talks about that in a way, in their language. Do you get what I'm saying? I do believe in calling body parts the right words and I do believe in never, ever, ever, ever, ever, shaming a kid for body parts and making sure everybody knows that we all got the parts and it's all good.

But there's also a part about, the nerd world we call it rapport building. I'll often speak a language right so if I'm meeting with somebody and they're swearing a lot I'm going to meet them where they're at. I'm not going to violate my own values of course but I want to meet them where they're at and this is a way to talk to an 11 and 13 year old that lets them know oh our dad gets us, right? And it may be in your house, mom doesn't need to be a part of that part of the conversation,

but they do need to be, y'all do need to be united. We decided we wanted you two in our lives so bad. And there's a guy out there who dedicated his life to helping couples find or have amazing kids like you two. And it's just gonna be presented as fact. And if you ever have any question, anytime, always, and then it's really important to put on a calendar about two weeks later, one of y'all take one kid out

and the other take the other kid out and y'all go out and just talk about, hey, like, that was a big conversation we had the other day. What do you think? What have you been thinking about? You would you think you ever one day want to meet that person? I don't know if I don't, we don't know who he is, but you ever want to meet him? You let me know. I would love to help help that. Does it feel weird? And you might get one kid that is devastated. You might get one kid that's like, my whole life's upside down. You might get another kid that's like, my whole life's upside down. You might get another kid that's like, yeah, okay.

In their world, there's all kinds of families. There's like y'all's family, which is a blended family. There's families of divorce. There's gay and lesbian families. There are, there's just families that look all kinds of different worlds in their world, in their schools and their friends. And this is just a, a, a unique family. And once again, I keep saying this over and over.

We chose you. I think that's where you go to every parent out there. Right beneath, um, my disdain for people who don't have wills is people who are not honest with their children about big life stuff. Like this situation, we had a sperm donor, or we had this situation, or you had an infant brother who died two days

after he was born and we've been sad for a long time about it and here was their name. You have to have those conversations with their kids because they will come out and it unspools every bit of your relationship because every kid who's now a young adult asked the question, if they lied about that, what else are they lying about? Now they don't need to know details about your sexual escapades of your past. They don't need to know details about blah, blah, blah. But if it concerns them, they got to know.

They got to know and it's got to be age appropriate, right? So thank you so, so much for that call, Amy. Kind of like you mentioned at the beginning, not everybody's going to have this particular situation. In fact, few people will, although more and more and more are dealing with this. But every parent has conversations that they need to have with their kids. Every parent does. And I'm just telling you, I've sat down to meet 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds, 25 year olds, whose whole lives are in ash because mom and dad kept big, big, big secrets. Thank you for being the parents who want to tell the truth. We'll be right back. Good folks, the modern world exposes us to things that were just unheard of until a few decades ago.

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I guess I'll start. I was the one who initially called in. So my- Drew, are you in trouble, Drew? No, not at all. Okay. All right, so what's up? So my question, my broad question is,

how do I kind of let go and stop obsessing over my father-in-law's abuse to my husband and my husband's siblings? And just why I feel the need, like I've taken on this role of like the person who needs to like make him pay or like, you know, that calls him to the carpet. And it's, I'm obsessing about it. Like it's, I've basically broken every relationship with his siblings. Um, he and I have had issues over it and I just, I don't know how to get past his bad behavior. Cause I feel like he's never had to like be called out for it. Like he's just got to live his life normally while I've just

over the years learned about all these like awful things he's done. You're talking about Drew's dad? Yes. Okay. Drew, tell me about your experience growing up, man. I come from an immigrant family. So my dad got here in the 70s, really strict kind of Roman Catholic family and then

hard work He had a jumping in and out of recycling dumpsters me at the age of six You know, we my brother my brothers and I would do this for a few hours. It seemed like almost every day. And, uh, whenever it came to side jobs and stuff, he's just, uh, he'd be very like verbally abusive, uh, times that I wasn't like the greatest son or like, if I would have, uh, hurt some, someone or just done something really stupid. Uh, there were a lot of physical kind of consequences. He beat the crap out of you?

Yeah. Okay. So Drew, can I tell you? Sorry, sorry, go ahead. You keep going, sorry man, keep going. I guess over the years I've seen like maybe some type of improvement, but my, what I remember as a kid a lot

and still now is the way he treats my mom. Not saying it's every day, but I mean, my mom in the last four years, I can remember like had to sleep at my brother's house for a couple nights cause I don't know, my mom doesn't really like talk back to him or anything. She just kind of takes it or she'll get so upset. She'll like, I've seen her do this, finish a bottle of tequila until she like passes out.

Well, yeah, tequila works, man. Okay. So before I move on, how old are you, Drew? I'm 37. You got kids of your own? We have five. Did this stop with you? Yeah. Tell me, what kind of dad you are, brother? I like to think I'm a good dad.

No, don't do that. Don't do that. What kind of dad are you? Hard-working dad. Do you have your kids crawling in and out of dumpsters? No. Do you beat up your kids? Never.

Do you take out your anger and rage on Ellen? Uh, no. So this stopped with you? Uh, yeah, I mean I we've had this talk too when Probably like about probably about a month ago, like a meeting between my wife, my brother, my mom and my dad. And I think that was like probably the number one thing

I would highlight is just like, I'm just not like him. So can I, hold on, hold on, just exhale on that for a second, man. I don't think you are grasping what a humongous deal that is. Because a father's sins and I'm not talking about like in the Jesus drank a beer, said a bad word kind of way. The pain and anguish and rage that a father commits to his sons is carried generationally. Because sons find themselves frustrated with their sons, scared to death about economic situations or in your dad's situation, thrown into a completely new culture on the other side of the world, terrified about people are gonna eat.

And the most common path is that those guys have sons and daughters, but I'm just talking about sons here, and they go on and you get stuck in a system and you get frustrated with your wife, you get frustrated with your young kids, you get frustrated with your boss. You get frustrated with your young kids. You get frustrated with your boss and in some modernized version, you just recreate the cycle and you have stopped. That's a huge deal. And so if you haven't, if you haven't stopped and with Ellen by your side,

stood in front of a mirror in your bathroom and put your fist in your bare chest with no shirt on and just said, hell yeah, I stopped it. This crap stopped with me. I want you to do that tonight, fair? Yeah, that's fair. Okay, what you've done is huge. I also would like to, I really wouldn't have been able to do it without my wife.

I know. Any good man I know stands on the shoulders of an amazing wife. I mean, that's just my life. That's my life too. Okay. But I want to call it out for you. All right. So I'm back to Ellen for a second Ellen

Yes Tell me about your childhood your mom and dad I had a great childhood. Okay, I you know to parent households Still very involved they live next door to us so God help you drew That's like it's like the Romanos. Um, it is in a lot of ways. Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I think that's why like learning all of this is even more frustrating. Like I got glimpses of it. He and I met in third grade, so we've known each other forever and ever. And so I've known his family forever and ever. And I knew his parents were like strictors. We were dating in high school, but like, it kind of all came to a head a couple of years ago with a, a text that really just like triggered my husband. And then I started hearing it was silly. We were at a Packer game and his dad is a Dallas fan because

he grew up in Mexico and that's what they had for NFL. Um, and he was just, he was just kind of being like nasty, like, Oh, you have your sons at this game. The Packers stink. Like it was silly, but it just really, it, it got to drew badly. Um, and then it, he just kind of exploded over text. And then since then, I've just been getting more and more stories of just experiences he's had. And it's just made me more and more- But where did your sense of justice and protection come from? Is your dad like a civil rights attorney or something?

Or your mom like- He is a lawyer, yeah. Okay, so- He's a defense attorney, yeah. There you go. Okay, that's all I needed to know. That's all I need to know, right? That's all you nailed it. Yeah Also because I knew him at like 10 so like when he tells me a story

About like yeah, I couldn't sit down in fifth grade because I was you know, beaten on the back of my leg so bad I'm like I was like sitting next to you and like didn't know that. Like I wish I could have, I don't know what 10 year old me would have done, but. So let me say this. So my dad was a homicide detective. So he wasn't a defense attorney,

but I grew up with very much a sense of what you see in the headlines is there's a person behind that. And we're going to dedicate our lives to keeping people safe. I'm going to dedicate our lives to tell them the truth. And I remember as a young kid, I didn't have the words like you mentioned, like what am I actually going to do? But I remember when somebody got hurt, I would feel it.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, like, like your stomach gets all warm, or your legs get real heavy. Yeah. And that make sense? Yeah. Like, like your stomach gets all warm or your legs get real heavy. Yeah. And you feel it. And I think that's a testament to how you were raised. And on the other side of it is that's a testament to how your nervous system works, how you're wired. But you have a deep and profound sense of justice and you love this man and you've seen

the extraordinary challenges and changes he's made and Both of you have a sense. I'm guessing after having your own five kids It's unconscionable Right you look at your own kids like how is this possible? Yeah, like I knew intellectually like you shouldn't leave your kids. I I Couldn't wrap my head around deciding to not be around my daughter Or my son like I couldn't wrap my head around deciding to not be around my daughter or my son. Like I couldn't even conceptualize that.

My heart doesn't beat right when I'm gone, right? All that to say is, I want you to hear and see. I'm going to say this with all due respect, your husband needs to love him and walk alongside him and not go out and go to war for him. And you punishing an old immigrant, exhausted man will not make his childhood okay. It will continue to cause tension and chaos in your existing lives and y'all have plenty of that. You got five kids. Yeah.

You don't need it. No, we don't. And so Ellen- I mean, and that's why I called. Well, at some point you have to decide to stop reading the headlines. Cause it's not helping. You know what I'm saying? Like what else are you going to do?

Right. You're going to go hit him? Like where does it end for you? Because you have these imaginary conversations. Like if it just was me and him, I would let him, and I'm going to tell you right now, it won't go like you think it would go. It won't feel like you think it's's gonna feel and it will solve no things. The greatest middle finger.

Well, that's what I'm saying. And then you're into your rope. You don't know what else you don't have another play in the play. The greatest middle finger to that type of childhood is raising your kids in a safe tethered peaceful household. And that doesn't feel like justice, but it's transformative. Drew, what's it like seeing your wife get fired up and just want to go to war against an opponent she can't defeat? Sometimes I, I don't mean going through, I mean like what I went through and what she

just, I don't know, I'm not saying I've, I've coped and I've like let this go, but I mean that's, I don't know. Sometimes I, I just want to tell her to like, to let it go. But then I also, I begin to feel enraged myself. Yeah. Because then I start to think about my mom. Yeah.

And remembering the nights of her crying. And so, I don't know. And is there anything more heartbreaking and is there any more any deep any more deep feeling of powerlessness when your adult parents? When you have the ability financially Psychologically emotionally to help them and they look at you and say I don't want your help Like it makes you feel small and powerless, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it's the worst And Ellen Absolutely. Yeah, it's the worst. And Ellen, you know Drew won the lottery when he married you, right?

Say it one more time. I think so. I'm sorry. You think so? I think so. I know so. I'm not trying to, yeah. So here's what I want you guys to commit to.

We all go out this weekend for a breakfast together. And I want you all to answer this one question. I ask it all the time, but I want you all to be serious. What do you want the house to feel like when Drew walks in every day? And what do you want the house to feel like, Ellen, when you walk in every day, five crazy kids all over the place,

Drew's running around like, what do you want the house to feel like? Because here's step number one, after you all answer that question. And when me and my wife asked it, I think I've talked about it on the show, like when we talk, I wanted it to be warm, I wanted people to be laughing in the house,

I wanted people to be happy I was home. And to get whatever feelings you'll want in your home, you're going to have to consciously say we're going to stop inviting the ghosts of my dad in this home. Every time we pick up a text message, every time we engage in a fight over the holidays, we are inviting the ghosts of my father into this home. And he's not welcome here. Or in another way I can say it is, I'm gonna stop giving him power over me and my family. Cause Ellen, you're inviting him back in.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And there will- Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was gonna say it's harder. There's an extra layer too,

just because of the type of community we live in. Like we all belong to the same church. Like we see them on Sundays. Okay, Ellen, leave. They live around the block. Leave, leave. Go to a different church. You're a grownup adult.

You have five kids. Yeah. Go to a different church. Okay, yeah. Your peace isn't worth all these other games y'all are playing. And there's gonna be some grief because y'all may want to go to that church. But bigger than that, you want peace in your home. You want laughter in your

house. You want Drew to come home exhausted, about to get mauled by five bananas, bonkers kids, and you still kind of think he's a smoke show when he wears the right shirt. And y'all wanted these five kids to go to bed so that y'all can yeah, like I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna Go have drama on my one day off, which is Sunday Yeah, I'm not gonna go into a house of worship in a place where I know I can't worship because the ghosts of my father are still there Because my feelings of ineptitude because my mom won't let me help her I'm gonna I'm gonna opt out because I'm the adult and I get to do that.

Yeah. And I'm sure there's other places, you know, weekly meals. Well, we're going to stop heading to go into the weekly meals. Or just Drew's going to go. And Drew, at some point, it will be your conversation, not Ellen's, when your mom says, where are you? And your brother calls you out and tries to, cause he still feels, your brother still feels

chained to this whole thing. And I'm making this up, but I'm just guessing. At some point, somebody will call you out. And that's when you consciously exhale and drop your shoulders and say, yeah, it's for me and my house. We're choosing peace. So I just needed to opt out. Oh, you're turning your back on your family.

No, no, no, no. If my family wants to, wants to bring peace to opt out. Oh, you're turning your back on your family? No, no, no, no. If my family wants to, wants to break peace in the house. Okay, well good. Then what you guys have to do is grieve it. Because it's not supposed to be this way. You're supposed to have one awesome set of grandparents on one side of the house and one awesome on the other. And y'all don't.

I'm sorry, it breaks my heart for you.'m sorry breaks my heart for you Yeah And it breaks my heart for those five kids, right? Yeah, that's the hard part because they wonder like why haven't we seen Papa or what's going on and it's just like I don't I don't really know what obviously I wouldn't drag them into this drama, but we haven't We haven't the kids haven't seen him besides like church or, you know, we all go to the same grocery store or whatever in months. Yeah.

Yeah. And grandpa's struggling right now. Grandpa's not doing great. Yeah. And then we're on to the next. I would love to too, Son. It just doesn't work out this time. Mm-hmm.

But Ellen, I'm guessing some of your justice Ellen, I'm guessing some of your rage comes from your sense of justice that you were given as a kid. And I'm so grateful you got that. And I'm guessing some of your rage comes from like it's you and Drew versus the world. I mean, you're Packers fans for God's sakes. Most of your life sucks, right? But it's y'all two versus the world, right? And it hurts when somebody's got their hooks in your husband.

And it hurts him when he sees his wife just banging her head against the wall, something he knows since he was two years old, ain't gonna change. And so there's this exhale where we get to decide, we're going to grieve the picture that we wanted, which is two sets of rad grandparents. We're not going to get that. And we're going to exhale and say, okay, as for me and my house, how can we get laughter and peace and joy and warmth back in this place? And for y'all, it's going to be deciding we're not inviting these people back in. And collectively, I hate that for y'all. I hate it. And this is a message that I mean, I don't know how many 80 year old dads, 75 year old dads listen to the show, probably zero.

72 year old moms listen to the show, probably very, very few. It is never too late to call your sons and say, I'm sorry. It is never too late to call your sons and say I'm sorry. It's never too late to call your sons and say I screwed up real bad. Do you forgive me? I want to do better. It's never too late to say hey I made up stories about you two son, you two daughter, and I was wrong. I'm sorry.

It's never too late moms to say you hit me for the last time. I'm out. That's 72 years old. Enough is enough is enough time I'm out at 72 years old enough is enough is enough I'm out just never too late thanks for the call Ellen and Drew thanks for the call y'all lucky you found each other tonight y'all go look in the in the mirror together Drew put your fist in your chest and say, it stopped with me.

And Ellen, give him a big hug because that's a Herculean masculine task. You married a man and that's amazing. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Listen, right now BetterHelp is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week now through March 31st. Listen, right now BetterHelp is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week, now through March 31st. Listen, you've heard me say this a thousand times, you're worth being well. And I believe that therapy can help. So if you've been on the fence, this is your chance to try therapy for a fraction of the cost.

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Right when I got off the call, I remembered I'm recording this show right before we have our Valentine's weekend money and marriage and I have. So I offered Ellen and drew seats at that and hopefully they'll be able to see to come come join us. And if they do, we'll do a follow up episode with them. It'd be fun to catch in with check in on them. But let's go to Bozeman, Montana and talk to Diana. What's up, Diana?

Hi, Dr. Don, how are you? I'm phenomenal. How are you? I am phenomenal also. Excellent. Excellent. What's up? So I'll just jump into my very long winded question.

I'm the long winded one around here. Okay. So my husband is a very, very busy man. He travels frequently and so he'll be gone for days or even weeks at a time. When he is gone, it's just me and my son at the house and we have kind of just like a peaceful rhythm. We have things planned, but nothing too busy. Just kind of going with the flow. And then when he comes home, the energy is

very different. He's a very like intense, passionate kind of man. And so he brings that energy into the household. And it's just... It's always kind of chaotic. And I'm having a hard's always kind of chaotic. And I'm having a hard time regulating kind of between the two environments. When he's gone, I miss him. But then when he comes home, I am kind of overstimulated. Like as soon as he tells me that he's on the flight home or driving back, it's like I can't breathe anymore.

And then he gets home and I'm picking fights. And I'm just having a hard time regulating between when he's gone and it's just me and my son and then when he's home it has like this whole kind of different dynamic with the house. You're awesome. Got to tell you thank you for the call. Thank you for picking up our call. If I go prodden will you promise you'll be as honest as possible? Yes. Okay. Have you ever sat down and told them that you hate his job and you miss him? So I we've talked about... Hold on, have you ever told him that? Yes. What did he say? He says he's burnt out too. Okay. But I think I kind of forgot a big piece.

So he's always kind of been like this very on the go motivated person. But a year and a half ago we went through some pretty extreme trauma and I think he's still kind of living with that every day. And I think his coping mechanism has been to fill his schedule as busy as possible so that he doesn't have to stay up all night. So I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated.

And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated.

And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's been very, very motivated. And I think he's still kind of living with that every day. And I think his coping mechanism has been to fill his schedule as busy as possible so that he doesn't have to sit and think about it. Busyness is a great American male drug. Yes. And it is, it does feel like a drug in the house.

Yeah. What was the trauma? What happened? And so I do want to be very empathetic. What was the trauma? His mom had a heart attack and she was on life support for two weeks and so he slept with her in the hospital. Had to kind of witness all of that and then after the two weeks had to make the decision

to take her off life support. Where's his dad? He is in the picture in the very slightest sense. We wish he wasn't, but I wish he wasn't. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yeah. So when this all did happen, I was six months pregnant and he is the oldest brother.

And so I saw him take on the energy of like, I'm the man of the house. You guys feel, I won't feel. And kind of that has not stopped since that time. Okay. And my guess is he needs somebody who really loves him to sit down and say, you're safe now. Yeah.

And I miss you now. Yeah. And I miss you now. Yeah. And the most empathetic thing is not as rarely silence. Yeah. And if it's safe, and no one's gonna tell you this in a how to be married blog. If there's abuse, then that's a totally different conversation, but if you're safe,

then what many men need in this situation is their wife to wade through that electricity and hug them anyway. Yeah. Because my guess is he's running and gunning and he's high as a kite on busy and he doesn't know how to stop. It's just cocaine. Yeah. He can't get off. And every time he starts to dip and the only way to keep going is to take more.

Yeah, there has been moments where he's had to dip, either like my son and I haven't been home or we've been doing something, and mentally it's very, very hard on him. Right. But just because it's hard doesn't mean it's wrong. He's gonna have to get off this train one way or the other, and I'm afraid it's gonna end poorly.

He's gonna say or do something out of just sheer fatigue and exhaustion and anger, unprocessed anger. Because by the way, that should not have been his call to make, that should have been his dad and his dad sucks. And it should have been all the brothers rallying around and he's probably been taking on that role since he was a really little kid. And he probably had some conversations he wanted to have with mom and he can't have them.

Yeah. And the worst possible thing he can do is go through 18 months of not talking to anybody, saying anything. And that's a tools issue. He doesn't have the tools in his toolkit. He didn't have a picture of what an adult male looks like when they're struggling. But he does have a wife who loves him to the moon and back. Yes, he does have that. And so I think the easy thing, and by the way, I'm a humongous, loud, obnoxious guy.

So I've seen my wife almost flinch when she wades in. Yeah. When I'm not doing well. And not flinch from she's gonna get hit, but she can feel the nuclear reactor in my chest. She can feel it. Yeah. And we've been together for almost 13 years now.

So I've always been used to kind of that intensity, but now it never comes down. That's right. Which is kind of where we're struggling. That's right. And it's just like the last call, the couple I just talked to, and by the way, if he ever wants to call in, I'd love to talk to him.

But it's you guys asking the most terrifying question I think anybody can ask, and that is, okay, it's been 18 months since the worst of the worst. And now we're starting to wear the bomb blast inside our own house. Here's the most terrifying question you and him can ask together. What are we gonna do now? Because we can't keep doing this.

Yeah. I can't have you disappearing for weeks at a time and coming in like a tornado. I can't be in my own house and have a panic attack when the most important person in my life says he's coming home. Yeah. And so we have to decide to do something different together so that when you text me from the plane, everything in my day gets better. Okay. But it's gonna be someone who loves him.

It's an intervention. If you ever watched that show, it's an intervention. Yeah. But it has to start with I words, I miss you. And I can't do this anymore. I'm not leaving you. I need you to know that you not being well affects all of us in this house. How can I love you?

And I'm going to see a counselor because I don't know how to love you through your pain, through all this whole stuff. I'm fine. I'm doing okay. You're not. I've known you too long. You're not. Yeah. Okay.

And that's not, you have to quit your job, it's not any of that kind of stuff. I'm busy, I think I've talked about it here on the show, I'm busier now than I was when me and my wife finally sat down when she finally waited through and said, enough is enough is enough is enough, you're not okay. Yeah. And I know you feel like you're harnessing the electricity, enough you're not okay yeah and I know you feel like you're harnessing the electricity which you're not we're all getting burned yeah just kind of how it feels yeah yeah

and then you end up feeling used huh yeah I kind of just feel like I'm getting dragged behind a car sometimes exactly right Yeah, and for a while sex will calm it down for a while I'll do a nice thing like with dinner for a while. It's I'll keep the house a certain way for a while. It's But then you start longing for why don't you just go on your trip? So me and my son can get back to our life Right and that's that conversation that it feels like my son and I have one life and he has one life. And sometimes they overlap, but otherwise they're separate. And that's what we're going to call right now.

We're going to call it. We're going to turn the lights on, turn the music off and say, I'm not living two lives anymore. We're living together. I'm your wife. Right. And I miss my husband. Okay.

And so we get to decide how does this house feel when you walk in. And I want it to feel warm and full of laughter. So here's what must be true. When you come in, here's what this got to look like for me. And by the way, when you come in, how do you want that to look like? When you're gone, how do you want us to talk, to text, to laugh, to have joy, to like, what do you want that to look like? Because this separate life thing is killing me.

Yeah. And I think underneath it, I mean, am I right? Like, I think you just miss your husband, right? Yeah, yeah. That's really all it is, I think. Miss your ride or die, yeah. And does he know that part? We've talked about that. Okay.

Yeah, it kind of feels like we've had all these or not all of these but a lot of these conversations and right now he's kind of just in that like addiction so to say like it's almost like he can't grab on to something to get off. Yeah. I think that's a great sentence to tell them. I see you and I know you can't get off. But here's the truth. When you land next time, I'm going to ask you to go spend the night in a hotel because I don't want you coming straight from the airport because I can't handle it in the house. It's too hot.

Okay. Or I'll go with you. Like nobody would make fun of you if you had a leak in the roof and you had to go ask somebody how to repair the shingles. You don't have the tools right now to get off the the busyness roller coaster and to be present with your family and actually decide we want to live here do we want to move do we want to go do something else and so we're gonna get the help that we need. For me will you go do that? We've talked about like him going to therapy before

and he's, it's a little too nervous to do it alone. Is that something that we could start together? 1000 million, billion percent, yes. That'd be the greatest gift you can give him. And I would probably phrase it like this. I've made an appointment with a trusted counselor that a couple of friends of ours like pointed out I'm going next Tuesday a

Way you could really show me that you love me as if you came with me Okay, and when you get to the therapist, it's not gonna be about he's doing this and he's doing this it is I'm out of ways to show my husband that I love him and that he's safe at home. I want to learn some new skills. And when he hears it and with a neutral third party, not in his environment, at his house where it's all like, where he's got an energy that he's walking into his own house with.

When you're sitting in a therapist office and your wife says, I'm trying so hard to love him and I'm out of tools, I don't know how. Can you help me therapist? Often that has a just it's like peeling a cataract off a situation because no husband that I know wants their wife to feel like they're out of options on how to love their love them. And that would be a great invitation for him. But yes, I'd make the appointment. I would tell him you're going and if he doesn't show up, I would go anyway. But invite him and tell him those words.

The number one way you could show me you love me right now is to go with me. Because I love you so, so, so much and I miss you and I don't have a connection point back. Thank you for the call, Diana. He's lucky to have you in his life. And he's lucky to love you through his grief, that you're loving him through his grief, you're loving him through his addiction to busyness, you're loving him through his... He's terrified on what to do next. He doesn't have a dad in his life that he can call and say, hey, old man, can you help

me with this next move? He's lucky to have you. Just remember, empathy rarely equals silence. Empathy is not passive, empathy is active. Thanks for loving him well, Diana. We'll be right back. I've got to tell you about Cozy Earth, the makers of incredible sheets, bedding, and bath linens. It is almost time, it's almost time, spring is almost

here and Cozy Earth has a spring into comfort sale going on right now. It's a great time to buy their bamboo sheet sets and their bath sheets. I love love their sheets and their towels are giant and soft and they don't get all thin and crusty after going through the laundry. They're the best. Cozy Earth sheet sets are soft and breathable and they keep me and my family cool and comfortable all night long. And like I said, you'll feel the quality of their bath sheets right away. They're so huge, don't even call them towels. They call them bath sheets and they're actually more like a bath comforter. Listen, it doesn't matter what they're called. They're just amazing. I also got a huge Cozy Earth weighted

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Visit CozyEarth.com slash Deloney and use code Deloney right now. That's C-O-Z-Y, CozyEarth.com slash Deloney. All right, something awesome happened. What is it, Kelly? Kelly Sullivan Yes. So this one's a little longer, so bear with me. He asked that we not use his name and we're going to respect that. First of all, we need some more cool crap that happens and am I the problem, so send

them our way. All right. I started listening from the beginning when you joined the Ramsey team. At the time, we were about 11 years into marriage with two elementary aged kids. I was a dad who yelled and said sarcastic and mean things to my wife and kids. My wife and I had very little communication. We were having sex maybe once a year and did not know how to have difficult conversations. I was working long hours, not available, drinking daily in the afternoons before I would come home to my family. Dinner time was stressful. I would stay up late working,

watching movies and drinking, and then wake up exhausted. I needed caffeine and B12 to get me through the day. I was keeping secrets and we were unhappy and I was beginning to have health problems. Many things from your show have impacted my living and caused me to make changes in my behavior almost from the beginning. One of the first things you said that touched me was yelling is abuse. It's childish and abusive. Also, that secrets damage relationships. Another is the practice of letter writing to forgive myself and deal with past trauma and guilt. Since listening to you, I've sought more counseling, forgiven myself for past mistakes. My wife and I no longer yell at each other or at our

kids. I've forgiven others who hurt me when I was a child. I've had hard conversations with relatives and friends. I no longer drink to manage stress and I've made it a practice to connect regularly with old friends. I'm exercising regularly and I no longer need caffeine to wake up in the mornings. My wife and I are learning to communicate and are practicing caring for each other in many, many ways. We schedule date nights and our intimacy is more regular and frequent with no shame." Oh yeah. We're off the annual plan.

"'It was so helpful to learn and to hear that other married couples were struggling with the same issues. Helpful to learn that the seven to 10 mark in many marriages is a common time of difficulty and resetting. I appreciate you joining the team and that your insights are being shared across the globe. Keep up the amazing work. Dude, I'm not even gonna comment on that. That's awesome. I think that guy speaks for himself. Well done dude. You're doing the work. You and your wife are doing the work and that's awesome. And for whatever it's worth, your grandkids are gonna have a

different life because you chose to turn down, turn around and stare down the dragons. It's awesome. It's hard every single day. I'm proud of you, brother. And everybody else out there who is making changes, tiny ones minute by minute, hour by hour, year by year. Awesome. It's awesome, awesome, awesome.

And shout out to you, team, gang, the guys who actually do this show. Thank you all. I think we're doing a good thing out in the world. Bye.