The Dr. John Delony Show - I Need Her More Than She Needs Me

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

On today’s show, we hear about: - A man wondering if he needs too much from his girlfriend - A mother unsure of how to care for her son with borderline personality disorder - A woman struggling to love and respect her husband Lyrics of the Day: Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Hallow Thorne Add products to your cart create an account at checkout Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: Building a Non-Anxious Life Anxiety Test Own Your Past, Change Your Future Questions for Humans Conversation Cards John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. So my husband has seemed to have a change of values over the past couple years. What are one or two that are driving you, like scaring you, making you uncomfortable? We both grew up in the same religion. He still somewhat believes, but he also likes to say that I've been brainwashed. What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney show, a show about your marriage, your kids, your emotional health, your mental health, whatever you got going on in the world. Holidays are coming up.

You just have survived, or maybe you didn't survive Thanksgiving. And we're right into Christmas. I saw something recently. Man, Christmas and Thanksgiving should be six months apart because we just need to recover. Here we are, not to mention political mess, drama, just tons of heartbreak going on overseas. It's just one thing after another. And then there's you sitting at home, sitting on the couch next to somebody that you're married to, feeling six inches apart, but 6,000 miles away.

Your kids struggling, school's a mess, your mental health, whatever's going on in your life. Everybody's there. Everybody's there. Here's my promise on this show. I'll sit with you. This show's real people going through real challenges in real time. I'll sit with you and we will figure out what we're going to do next. I care about you. I care about people. And I got a vested interest in this because I got two little kids, man. And they're not little anymore. I got two young kids. And you all, the listeners of this show, the people who join me on the show, y'all are building the world that they're going to inhabit.

So I want us to all get it right. And what we're doing is not working. So let's try to do something new. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291. Or go to johndeloney.com slash ask. And it's not too late.

They may all be sold out by now, but it's worth getting on there and checking them out. Questions for Humans, the Christmas edition. We sold all the way out of them last year. We're recording this in the middle of November and they just told me there's no way that they're still around by the time Christmas comes around, but there may still be some left.

And Kelly, let's run through a few questions. Questions for humans. Nice. All right. First one. You just weren't very believable just then. Nice. Nice.

And when do you really and truly feel like it's Christmas time? Man, when we put our live Christmas tree up in the house. And I have a weird thing. We all have to be a part of decorating it. Everybody's got to be there. We got to put on weird music and we all have to do it and go through the box

and it'd be so much easier if just one person just knocked it out. And if you're like us, we have to talk about each ornament and I remember when they got this and then blah, blah, blah.

And you and I were talking the other day, like all the kids put all the ornaments in like the same six inch spot. And then I fix it after everybody goes to bed. We all have to be a part of it. And that's after that,

I feel like it is Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. Yeah. That's a good one. What about you? Honestly, ours, for me, it's our- When you see me? Yes. That feels like Christmas every day?

It's just Christmas in my heart. You don't have a heart. In your chest cavity. In my chest cavity where it should be. No, the thing for me is our church's choir concert. It's such a big moment for us every year. You would. It's just, it is.

It's like three amigos when they're like, I would buy cars. I would do this. I would build an orphanage. My husband sings in the choir. And our choir is something to behold. I mean, I go to a big church, so there's a lot of it. And it's just always a fantastic production,

but they do it simply. It's not like Vegas, you know, it's beautiful. And we didn't get to go last year because we were at my mother's service. And so it felt really weird. It was like a marker that didn't get to go last year because we were at my mother's service. And so it felt really weird. It was like a marker that didn't happen. And so we're looking forward to it this year. It feels a lot like there's going to be a parumpa pom-pom slit in there at that concert. Sometimes there actually one year they had like a high school drum corps. So sometimes

there is. I do. I will say I get up and go to the bathroom if they play Mary, did you know? Because she knew. She knew. She knew. The angel told her I say I get up and go to the bathroom if they play Mary Did You Know? Because she knew. She knew. She knew. The angel told her. I won't get on that soapbox. And if there was Little Drummer Boy, I would have to just leave. See, I like Little Drummer Boy. Well, that's because you have diagnosable mental

illness. Alright, let's go to the next one. What Christmas movie gets way too much hype? This is a potentially divisive question. Jimmy, Jimmy. It's A Wonderful Life. I hate that movie. Not a great movie.

No, I don't hate it. I don't like it though. We don't watch it. Not a good movie. The sentiment's great. Hey, if you weren't here, other people might not have as much joy. It's kind of a horror movie.

Or my wife might've found some way wealthier, way better looking guy and her life would be incredible. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not a fan. Yeah, not a fan. Not a fan. What's an underrated Christmas movie? Jenna, Muppet Christmas Carol.

I love the Muppet Christmas Carol. Yeah, we both love the Muppet Christmas Carol. We've both come across some people who don't like Muppets at all. So they don't like that. You know why? Because they're sociopaths. Yeah. Right, exactly. Muppet Christmas Carol is so they don't like that. You know why? Because they're sociopaths. Right, exactly.

Muppet Christmas Carol is awesome. It's the best for a test. Nightmare Before Christmas is my number one of all time. There's one on Netflix and that a lot of people may not know about. It's called Jingle Jangle. And if you liked The Greatest Showman, you'll love it. I know the title's stupid,

but if you like The Greatest Showman, you'll love it because it's the same choreographer, same music, same costuming, but it's a really great Forest Whitaker's in it. It's just this, you watch it and you're like, I feel really good.

Oh, I know that movie. Yeah. It's a great Christmas movie. But when you say the words jingle jangle, I just imagine you running through like a park with meth in your pocket. That just feels like jingle jangle.

That's the thought I have. What's wrong with you? I don't know. Let's go out to Virginia and talk to the M-A-T-T. What's up, Matt? How we doing? Hey, Dr. John.

Thanks for taking my call, man. Pretty, pretty excited, pretty nervous. Oh, don't be nervous. I'm excited, but don't be nervous. All right, so what's up, dude?

No, I'm nervous because my girlfriend's going to listen to this because she's the reason that I'm listening to you And called you Alright choose your words carefully Choose your words carefully She knows about it

So I'll jump to the question and then circle back It's because of a call That you took last week About the guy who wanted more communication And I identified with him a lot and you told her to run. So my question is, uh, am I, am I that guy? Uh, also, am I asking too much? Uh, and if so, you know, how do I make peace with, uh, the relationship where our communication styles are so different and I don't get as much as I want. And there's lots of background. Yeah.

So you could do a 10 part series on us, man. Oh man. I appreciate your call. Um, so, Hey Kelly, can you fill me in on that? Um, I don't think we, we, Matt, we record these sometimes up to a month apart. So I don't remember that call. Um, I think it was the one who the, that he's talking about is the guy, the woman called in and her, if she didn't text her boyfriend first thing in the morning, communication all day long. And if she didn't text by nine, he was mad. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So moving the goalpost, you better run girl, that kind of one. Yes. Okay. So that guy sounds like you, right? A little bit. We diverge in some areas, but yeah, the feelings of being an afterthought. I mean, I don't need,

I don't need calls every 10 seconds or anything crazy. And I don't need detailed lists of what she does, but I do feel like there's such a huge gap in our communication. And I have also moved the goalposts, but to use the football analogy, I'm moving them closer. I don't ask for 10 yards for a touchdown. I just want her to hike the damn ball. I'll give her a touchdown. Go ahead.

I feel like every time I ask for less and less because she says she can't give more, I ask for less and less. She still says, nope, too much, nope, too much, nope, too much. It's tough because I don't want to be that guy who's driving her away and making her want to run, but I just love this Bill says, nope, too much, nope, too much, nope, too much. And it's tough because it's,

I don't want to be that guy who's driving her away and making her want to run. But I just, I love this woman with all my heart. And I just want to, I just love talking to her and hearing from her and that sort of thing. So it sounds like she's moving the goalpost back. So, or she's moving the goalpost too. Let me just put it that way. Let me, let me try to ask the question this way.

Sure. Let me let you ask your question. What's your question? So it's if I'm asking too much, if I am being overbearing, we're both divorced with kids, live a town apart, and she has her kids week on, week off. I've got mine maybe a third of the time. And during those sometimes seven to ten days that we don't see each other, I really crave that connection, at least through the telephone, because we don't get to physically see each other much. And that's when it really feels like, I feel like an afterthought. She even said extraneous at one point. And it was tough.

I mean, I used the word first, to be very fair. But she's like, yeah, you do feel extraneous during those times. And I've just got the kids, and I'm dealing with them. And yeah, I don't have time for you. It's tough. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't think that's – you don't sound like that other guy at all to me. Now, maybe you listened and felt that way, but I don't think that's I don't you don't sound like that other guy at all to me Now, maybe you listened and felt that way, but I don't I don't hear that at all

um Why when she has her kids? Do y'all not see each other? Um, so we we used to um Heck we even we were even engaged for two weeks a couple months ago She's got um a daughter who's 14 who's doing the classic, I hate mom because I'm a teenager. I want to kill myself when I'm around you sort of thing. I mean, it's not really the classics. It's like she's got a lot of struggles.

Maybe not classic, but there's that angst between mom and teenage daughter. And then it's to the point where she was making suicidal ideations and even cutting. And it hadn't occurred right after our engagement because she's like, I don't want you guys to be engaged. I don't, I don't, I don't want a new life. Um, and so my girlfriend called off the engagement, um, after a couple of weeks because of that, not only that there's a Ramsey solutions connection, I had a little more depth and she realized, and she's like, well, step back, you back. And I'm working. We're working on that. I'm on step two.

What do you mean? Like she realized you finally came clean about you owe a whole bunch of money in debt? Right. She knew about student loans from law school and a little credit card debt. She knew that the firm that I'm about to leave has been really financially tough on me. And I didn't really disclose how tough it had been. So after the engagement, I said, I gave her a spreadsheet and said, here I am. And she's like, Ooh, that's more than I expected. Um, but we, we worked a

plan, you know, to, to, to do it together. Um, she's a financial whiz she's got, I mean, she's just phenomenal. Um, and I'm struggling and that coupled with the She's got, I mean, she's just phenomenal. And I'm struggling. And that coupled with the daughter sort of, I shouldn't be going off the deep end, but the stress with her daughter, she's like, this is too much. We need to step back. So that's why I don't get to come around that often anymore because it seems to stress out her daughter. Now her daughter's living with her ex-husband now more full-time because of the stress. So I may be invited around a little bit more, but that hasn't happened yet in the last month. And so it's just tough.

Man, I'm just going to give it to you straight. Is that cool? Yeah, please. I think these communication challenges and the I'm all in, but wait, Colin, let's take a breather. Let me see the spreadsheet. All of this feels like theater to a much bigger issue in your relationship together. It feels like y'all are not nearly as close as

you want to be. Yeah. And y'all are not nearly as far apart as she would feel safe. And so what happens is it's almost like two magnets that are turned the wrong way. Y'all just push each

other away so hard. Pursuer distance are kind of dynamic. Yeah, it just becomes, you've heard me say it on the show, it just becomes a dance where I'm starving, I can't breathe, I can't breathe,

I can't breathe and you're my oxygen and then the, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, you're smothering me. And she's using you as an excuse to,

she's using distance from you as an excuse to, she's using distance from you as an excuse to make herself, her alarm bells not ring off the hook because she probably went through a gnarly divorce that was a mess. And she has a daughter that's chaotic. That's, dude, you can't let a teenager dictate your life. That young girl cannot handle the power of determining her mom's dating relationships. That's too much power to give to a child. She can't carry that weight. Well, you hit the nail on the head with the terrible divorce. Her ex-husband married the paramour, the mistress that caused the divorce and moved her in right away. And we suspect that that has something to do with the resistance to our relationship. You know, I'm like another interloper. But at the same time, your financial insecurity, your professional insecurity,

you work in a very, very difficult job. Nobody calls an attorney because they're having a great day, right? So you enter into people's pain every day of your life as a way of being. And so you've identified her. Your body's identified her as a cup of water, as your oxygen. And when you don't get it, man, you text more. Where are you? Why aren't you me? Am I just an afterthought? And it's that, it's that internal can't breathe, can't breathe, can't breathe. Like when you're underwater a little bit too long and then the kid won't get off of you and all of a sudden your body goes to full,

right. And it just gets to that weird dance. That's it. A hundred percent. That's it. That's what it feels like. It's yeah. It's a craving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, um, I think the conversation has to be way, way beneath communication style, by the way, that language is so frustrating for me, not to you. I'm really grateful that y'all are identifying. I communicate this way. I communicate this way. I communicate that way it's super frustrating to me that those type of

Some overly simplistic models are placed in the world because they give people a relational out What do I mean by that? Well, my love language is touch. Well, my love language is nice is affirmations And we just aren't compatible and i just want to yell from the rooftops that's so stupid there's nothing empirical about any of that all of that changes over time and if my wife if i'm in tune with my wife i know that she likes to be hugged when she's when she's hurting and if she's in tune with me, she knows that I like it when she puts her hand on the back of my neck and says, hey, I'm proud of you.

Like, we don't have to devolve into this. I don't do that kind of love language. I do what my partner needs and vice versa. And so, if y'all have different communication styles out of the gate, great. I don't really care. What does she need? And what do you need?

Right? If my wife needs me... And it's shifted over time. That's the thing. It always moves, right? What's important is that every month you say, hey, I'm getting ready. It's getting super stressful at work. And like just a quick hello in the morning, like it changes the whole nature of my day.

Would you love me enough to say hello? And she'd be like, i got that and if she can't do that then your relationship has much bigger issues in it or if she says hey dealing with my daughter in the morning is so difficult and every morning i wake up in a panic that she's even still alive or that there's blood on the sheets again and like just the thought of having a chore to do which is i gotta make sure i call him back three times can i call you when i get to work and you'd be like yeah absolutely babe that'd be awesome but until y'all have that level of conversation um it's just going to be this ping pong match of well you did this but you didn't do. And it just becomes theater for the deeper issues here.

Yeah. It sounds. And by the way, the scariest thing for somebody who went through a bad divorce, who is scanning the environment 24, seven, three 65 for, am I safe?

Am I safe? Am I safe? Is finding out that the person that they almost went all in on didn't tell them the full truth. Yeah, no, I know that I was definitely wrong. That's a huge regret. Yeah. Yeah.

Have you said that in that way? I don't know. I know I've apologized and said, I'm sorry. I didn't tell you this earlier. Um, I think it's deeper than that. I failed you. Yeah, no, I did. I was a hundred percent accurate. That's awesome. That's awesome. And I failed in my, I failed in my last marriage, you know, it was my fault. So it's like, in what way? I stepped out on the marriage. I wasn't,

I wasn't honest with my ex-wife that I was hurting and feeling unloved and feeling worthless and devalued. And I found somebody that made me feel good for a little while. And I just don't want to make those mistakes because this woman is the light of my life. And I think when she said it before, when our highs are high, they are, they're, they're, they're to the moon and back because we just, you know, we're both, we both have similar jobs. Like she's active duty military. I'm reserved now, but, um, you know, we've got these, we have so much common ground and just love food and I love to cook and she loves to eat and I do too.

You know, it just, it's so much is so good. It's intense. It's, I mean, we both said that we fell in love the minute we walked into the coffee shop the first time we met, you know, and it's probably damn accurate and it's, it's been wonderful, but those lows are just, you know, use that analogy of like the love tank just rains. And I just, you know, so let me ask you a hard question. Sure. You've done some dumb things. I have too.

We all have. Yeah. But you've painted me a pretty clear picture of a guy that doesn't like himself. Why? I was afraid you were going to ask me that question because I haven't come up with the answer. I've been in therapy for two years trying to figure it out. And it's hard. I mean, you know, I had loving parents, nuclear family,

wonderful Christian household, great career in the Marines for, you know, 25 years, you know, some of it active duty, and I've accomplished a lot, became an attorney. Like, I mean, just, you know, a lot of things that I'm like, this is awesome. I've finally done it all. But that's a guy that's been,

that's been running from hill to hill saying, oh, I have peace on that hill. And then you get to that hill and you're like, well, damn it, I went with me. There's peace over on that hill. And then you start running and you, and dude, nobody can stop you. You can do anything.

If you get out of active duty military after 25 years and you go to law school with all those kids and you get out and start practice, like no one can stop. You can do whatever you want, but that sounds like a guy that's running from himself. And if you, if you expect any woman to fill that or that doomed statement that Tom Cruise whispered across the room, if you're waiting for somebody to complete you, dude, they're ultimately not going to be able to carry that weight.

I'm afraid that's what I'm putting on her. I want her to compliment me, not complete me. And I'm afraid I'm... The only way that can happen, that's a beautiful sentiment. The only way that can happen is if you recognize that your oxygen comes from within your chest, not from her. I don't like my oxygen. I know. But I'm telling you as an outsider, it looks good. I appreciate that. So what if this?

What if instead of going to a therapist and just talking and talking and talking and talking, what if you began practicing liking yourself? And that sounds so cheesy. I'm going to tell you something that my counselor made me do. Okay? Okay. And it melted me. And I'm tired today.

And so I'm probably going to get choked up talking about it. So she called me out once. I may, I don't know if I've talked about on the show or not, but we we've, she called me out once and she said, Oh my, she's an Oracle,

right? She said, Oh my gosh, you don't like you. And I was like, yes, I do. Like,

no, you don't. I was like, I do. And she said, say it, it say the words I love this guy and I started laughing I was like I'm not saying that and she goes say it and she goes just say it say it to me I love this guy you know she made me make a fist and put it in my chest and say I love this guy, I couldn't do it.

That was the strangest out-of-body experience. Dude, I couldn't do it. And she goes, there it is. She goes, none of the rest of this stuff gets better. None of the rest of this stuff heals until you're okay with you. Because if you're not okay with you, everybody feels you trying to get something from them. And some people want that,

but that always ends up in an unhealthy dynamic. Other people like my daughter or your girlfriend slash fiance slash girlfriend, their bodies sense it and they feel like they're going to get dragged underwater by two big guys like us. And so they bolt, they bail, they back up. Yeah.

I don't want that. I want her to, yeah, I, I want to love. Yeah. God, I can't even say it. Yeah. So exactly. So here's your homework and I'm going to, it's going to be as cheap. Dude, I expect people listening to go,

is that a 200-pound Texan talking to a former Marine, telling him to put his fist in his chest and look in his bathroom mirror and say, I love this guy five to 10 times a day? Yes, that's what's happening right now. But I want you to do it. And listen, when you say it, I want you to intentionally relax and drop your shoulders down because you can probably flex through it. That's what you've been doing your whole life.

You flex through law school. You flex through basic. You flex through all your promotions. You flex through all of it. That's what you could do. But you can't flex through making some woman feel safe, especially with someone who's already just been burnt to ash. That has to come from the inside out. The only way that happens is if you admit

I got to practice being okay with me. I can't expect somebody to carry that. I'm just going to tell you on this side of it, it's healed my relationship with my daughter. It's healed my relationship with my son. It's healed my relationship with my wife. It's made me a general better person to be around, a safer person to be around

because I'm not grabbing every person in my life and saying, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up. I'm able to walk into a room, safe, whole on my own two feet and look around and saying, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up, hold me up. I'm able to walk into a room, safe, whole on my own two feet and look around and say, how can I love each and every one of you? And hey, here's what I need to be loved guys. I'm going to put that out there. Man, that's a totally different dynamic. So starting today, I want you to put your chest in your hand and look in the mirror and say the words, I love this guy. And I want you to do that every day for the next 30 days. And then tell your wife or tell your fiance, maybe your wife one day,

girlfriend, I've been expecting you to hold me up and I'm sorry. Whenever somebody can't hold me up, I get nervous and then I get clingy and then I go looking for, I start hiding things. I keep secrets No more no more No more Hang on the line brother. I'm gonna send you a copy of building an unanxious life as my gift to you Read that dude, and he'll give you a road map From point A to point B. I'm going to start living into these things as I practice

learning to be okay with myself. And it's good to go to counseling, dude. Go talk to somebody. But let's just stop the loop, the loop, the loop. Let's start really honing in. I love this guy. This guy's safe. This guy can do hard stuff.

This guy can take care of people. And this guy's okay saying what he needs out loud. You love me too. And then, dude, we'll deal with the communication stuff on the back end. Let's start at the root. I'm proud of you, brother. Proud of you. And tell the truth, Matt.

Tell the truth. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Let's go out to Salt Lake City and talk to Janelle. What's up, Janelle? Hey, I'm good. Can you hear me? I can.

How are you? Okay. I am very nervous. I cannot believe that I'm actually talking to you. I can't believe I'm talking to you. I am so grateful and hope that you can give me words of wisdom today. I will do my best. What's up?

So my question is, how do you live with someone that has BPD or borderline personality disorder and the guilt that comes along with that. And so the background is my son, who is an adult, he's had several I wouldn't say suicide attempts necessarily but definitely very strong threats of suicide and

then this last month he was pulled over for having an equipment malfunction on his car, but also had an open container in the car and refused to talk to the police. And the car is registered in my husband's name. So they called him and said, look, you know, uh, we're happy your son pulled over, you know, can you get him to talk to us? And anyway, it was a long drawn out event night. He ended up deciding to go to a hospital on a 72 hour hold instead of going to jail. And so long story short, there were no beds anywhere in the state of Utah for him to go to an inpatient place. So I had to go and pick him up and get him out. But I had told him, you cannot live with us anymore because drinking and driving was one of our

hard stop. You cannot do this while you live here. And so then he left and he came home for one night, left and went to be with someone who lives out of state, a friend that came back the week later. In the meantime, I called his therapist, which is the first time I've ever done that. I've never had any contact with his therapist ever. But I was like, okay, he's in a bad situation, in a bad spot, threatening suicide again, left the state, and his therapist kind of led with, well, people with borderline personality disorder, this is, you know, suicidal threats and stuff are common. And I just went, what?

Like, it was so, it was such a validation of everything that we've dealt with, with him over the last however many years. Wait, hold on. The therapist gave you your son's diagnostic? Yes. Only because like he told me initially first, you need to call back and leave your message. I will listen to your message. And if I have questions, I will call call back and leave your message. I will listen to your message. And if I have questions, I will call you back. Gotcha. Okay. So I said, okay. So I called and left the message and told him what was going on. And he called back and he said, because this is

a safety issue because he's threatening suicide. And now, you know, you're not in contact with him and you don't know where he is. This is the only reason that I can talk to you. Okay. Let's pause here for a second. I want to do this. I want to take a second or a minute or two, if that's okay, and teach for just a second, okay? To everybody listening, borderline personality disorder. You heard me exhale.

You heard mom go, I knew it. Here's what borderline personality disorder is. And by the way, I love, love these folks. And, man, I'm a pretty differentiated guy. And so if you walk away from me, that's fine. And my kids don't have it or they haven't been diagnosed with it yet. Here's borderline personality disorder. Your feelings feel like fire. And so they experience the world differently than other people. So are, a listener, casual listener, you get mad, they get enraged.

You like somebody, you meet them at a bar and you like them, you meet them at church and you like them. Their body is a wash in love. I love them. And I love them forever and ever. Amen. Until they're four minutes late. And then I hate them. They're the worst. I'll destroy them. Right? And so there's this obsession with abandonment and it's often imagined. It's often not real, like four minutes late, right? I was going to

the bathroom and I came out. And by the time you get there, that annoyance, like let's say someone's late, five minutes late to a date, I can feel it. And then when I see them and I go, where were you? And they go, oh, I had to go run to the bathroom. I go, oh, okay. Often somebody with borderline personality disorder can't come back. When that train leaves the station one way or the other, it is gone. Best ever, worst ever. There is no middle ground. And in counselors, we know when somebody comes in and says, hey, I've seen six counselors, you're the greatest counselor of all time. You're the only one that has ever got me. Counselors go, uh-oh, right? Because here we're going to be on the other side. And very,

very impulsive. So here's a picture I want to paint for somebody who doesn't know what this is. Imagine you're walking through the woods on a hike and you're surrounded all of a sudden bees are all over your arms and legs and they're stinging you all over. You would roll, run, flop, scream, jump in a lake, cover yourself with leaves. You do whatever you could to get these bees off of you. If somebody was to be 200 yards from you and just see you acting, they would think, oh no, this person's bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S. But to you, it makes perfect sense. You're getting stung by bees, right? So if you've got borderline personality disorder, one of the strong characteristics is highly impulsive and often irresponsible,

irresponsible behavior. So when your body, when your feelings feel like fire, you go sleep with four people over a two day period. You go, you don't drink, you drink, right? You don't tell somebody, Hey, I can't talk to you today. You burn them to the ground. Or I feel like I can't get ahold of mom. I'm just going to tell mom I'm thinking about hurting myself. Or what a classic line is, I'm having dark, dark thoughts.

And then everybody comes back, right? It's this intensity, this paranoia, an actual fear of something that folks around them often can't even see or experience very black or white they call it splitting it is this or this period right either or not both and so am i hitting am i that that's borderline personality disorder in a nutshell and the reason i love them you completely put my son in that nutshell. Okay. The reason I love them is they experience the world in such a multicolorful way, a powerful way. I'm jealous of how joyful they can be.

And here's what's super frustrating. They're often brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. And when they tell me, brilliant, brilliant. And when they tell me, I hate you, I'm able to walk away and be like, well, my wife loves me and my kids mostly do. So I'm good, my dog's like me. So it's hard when you're a mom, right?

Oh my gosh, mom guilt is the worst thing on the face of the planet. That's right. And you have probably done the terrible thing, which is Google borderline personality disorder. And somewhere they've said it's got a strong genetic link. And you've gone, oh, I did this to him. Well, yes. But the other part of that also is everything that I've read

is saying that a lot of it, almost every case, is trauma-induced. Trauma-informed. And I'm like like to my knowledge there has been no abuse to my knowledge like we have a really tight close family and i just kind of go okay how is there trauma for him? And did I cause it? And what? So let me tell you the problem.

Let me tell you the scary thing about the track you're on. And then please just stop the train where it is. Okay. Number one, I was with my wife for 25 years. And there were some things I didn't tell her about what I experienced as a kid. Yeah. Just because you're tight doesn't mean you know. Right.

The second thing is that question that you start asking, we're a tight-knit family. What about this? All, if you're not careful, ends up in what about me? What did I do? Right. And his pain and his experience of the world somehow becomes your issue. It somehow becomes, what about me?

And with someone who struggles with borderline, it can never loop back that way. Yeah. I mean, it's like, seriously, he has been this way. As far as I, I mean, I was mom and I gave birth to him as far as I know and have, who can look back at his entire life. He has been like this. Like his siblings would get mad because I would just be like, Hey, look, he's just different. Like he feels things intensely. So when he's mad, he's pissed. Yeah. And when he's happy, he's over the moon happy.

And I, so I've always, his whole life explained him that way to people. Right. And so, I don't know. I'm like, so now that he is no longer living with us. We went down today, mostly my husband because I couldn't do it because I cried the whole time, to the room that he was staying in and I said, I just feel like I'm betraying him

by packing up his stuff. In your house? In my house. And my husband said, he has to start learning the consequences of his adult choices. And I'm like, I know, but as a mom, I cannot. Like, it's so hard. The greatest gift you can give him is both,

I see you and I believe you, and here are my boundaries. It's the greatest gift you can give them. Ian, I feel so guilty as a mom setting boundaries. I know. And that's a... Those feelings you feel, you're asking him who gets so enraged.

And he does. Like, it's scary. I know, I know. But listen to me. Listen to me. He gets so enraged, and he has figured out something that numbs that rage. Alcohol. Yep.

And you're asking him, when you feel enraged, don't go drive. We have to develop some different behaviors. Right. I'm asking you the same thing. Your guilt and you're allowing him to just keep doing whatever he wants to do because you feel guilty hasn't worked, right? Right. Let's try something else.

The greatest gift you can give him is, I love you. I believe you that your skin is on fire. You cannot bring cocaine into my house. I believe you that you are in pain. If you make a threat on your life, I will call the police 100% of the time. Every time. And that's not going to be your avenue to me. That's going to be your avenue to a 72-hour hold.

Right. An avenue to me is you walking in the front door and letting me hold my baby. I don't care how old you are. Right. But if you act only as a response to the guilt you feel, nothing changes. Yeah. And by the way, he has to go get DB feel, nothing changes. Yeah. And by the way, he has to go get DBT,

dialectical behavior therapy. He has to choose that. That's the path for him. Okay. And you can't do that for him. So what do I do in the future? Cause I can just see this cycling around again, but he's going to lose this place where he's staying right now

and say, I don't have any place to live. Can I come home? And I'm like, how do you, I know logically that I can say, no, you can't, but how do you emotionally, the emotional side, my heart says, how do you tell your kid, I'm sorry, you can't come live here. You grieve.

Yeah. You allow yourself to feel it. And in the same way you would tell him, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, I know you are so angry about being abandoned and you're about to go home with those four women. Please don't. This will pass. I'll tell you the same thing

Everything in your body will scream at you. Let him come home. Let him come home. Let him come home That will pass okay, or you can come home Here are the stipulations here are the boundaries And be honest i've not held these in the past And i'm learning that I have not done you any favors. Or you can come home. This is the first time. But you will enroll in DBT.

And I would like to, if you feel safe, I would like you to sign that I can have a conversation with your counselor so I can see how you're doing. If you don't go, I hear you, that it's scary. I hear you, that it makes you feel powerless. And here's the truth. The truth is you can't live here unless you are actively pursuing care. Yeah. And I will tell you, mom,

borderline personality disorder has a high rate of success for treatment and it is hell and it's long because you basically have to learn inside my body that what my body feels in any given moment is not the truth and that's just tough to reimagine. I mean, re-experience life, right? Right. That's hard, hard, hard. He's got a tall order ahead of him, and he can do it. Yeah, I'm just, it was so interesting

because I felt like a thousand-pound weight lifted off me when I finally heard that. I was like, I've been throwing darts at a wall and now I actually have a target. Except here's the problem. Here's the problem, mom. You don't have a target. He does. Right.

Right. You have been solving his problems his whole life and you can't solve this one. You're right. But I feel like at least it gives it an identity and a name. Oh, yeah. We named the dragon on this one. Like, oh my gosh, I'm not crazy. Nope.

Because, you know, he goes into his rages and telling me how stupid and dumb I am. And you know what I mean? Like, you just feel like an idiot. But hold on. That's when you stop and say, I'm going to stop you. I hear you, that you're very mad i believe you you are not allowed to be disrespectful in my house to me or your father period so if you choose

to be disrespectful you're choosing to leave oh my gosh you and that i'm telling i'm gonna stop you right there this is your last shot. You're choosing to leave. I prefer you to stay. I want you here. And by the way, that interaction is not going to solve this. He's got to go get very directed therapy. And it's hard. It's hard.

He's got to learn tolerance for that fire feeling. That body feels like it's on fire but it's actually not yeah and he's got to learn some new behaviors in place of the ones that are impulsive and ultimately destructive got to retrain his body

as to what feels normal that's tough tough tough tough so I can just continue to tell him that I love him and I support him and

all day long I love you yeah that's one of the most important things I see you I see you and here support him. All day long? I love you. Yeah, that's one of the most important things. I see you. I see you. And here's the truth.

You can't do that. Or you cannot live here. I would be honored if you would have dinner with me every Wednesday night and lunch with me every Sunday afternoon. Forget you. If you're not going to let me live here, I don't want anything to do with you.

I hate that. I hear you. And I know you're mad. I hear it. going to let me live here, I don't want anything to do with you. I hate that. I hear you. And I know you're mad. I hear it. But you can't live here, but I would really love it if I could buy you dinner on Wednesdays and Sundays

to catch up, see how you're doing. Right. And if you fulfill program A, B, C, and D, I'd love to figure out helping you get an apartment or helping you move back in. Or,

I'd love to go to therapy with you. See what I'm saying? We're not abandoning him, which is his worst nightmare. Right. We are saying, I'll walk alongside you, but he doesn't get to dictate. His volatility doesn't get to dictate this relationship. His stable mother and father do.

And over time, hopefully, that is something he can anchor into finally, because he lives an anchor-less life and he's just whipped around by feelings. And by the way, for those of you like wondering, like, oh, is that real? Borderline personality disorder is very, very real. And the feelings, the intensity is very real. I've seen it. It is. Wow. Deep compassion for folks who struggle with that. And my goodness, there's some of my favorite people on the planet. But again, I don't have one that's a child, so I can walk out of a room and be like, hey, dude, I'm not going to do this, but I love you and when you're ready to hang out. I would love to one of my favorite people

I've had students over the years that were brilliant and Hilarious and so fun and when things got sideways, it was tough very very tough then deep shame and all of it looped back Here's what i'm saying be present let them know you see them and you hear them and then you gotta hold firm on the boundaries and it sounds like mom it would be good for you to go talk to somebody too have somebody walk alongside you give you some tips and some support and some tools on how to love somebody,

be in a relationship with somebody that struggles with borderline personality disorder. It's very, very hard. And let's set down the bricks of guilt and what did I do? What about me? Let's don't do that. Let's make it about what kind of home do I want to have? What are the boundaries I want to build? How can I love and support him?

Because my guess is, mom, you didn't do anything wrong. The truth is, you got a hurting son. Let's head that way. I'm grateful for you, Janelle. Thank you so, so much for the call. We'll be right back. Hey, good folks, let's talk about hallow. All right, I say this all the time.

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It's amazing. Three free months when you go to hallow.com slash deloney it's amazing three free months of the app when you go to hallow.com slash deloney go right now and change your life all right we're back let's go out to provo utah and talk to dear marie what's up marie hey how's it going we're partying what's up what Marie? Hey, how's it going? We're partying. What's up? What are you up to? Oh, thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it. Of course. What's happening?

So my husband has seemed to have a change of, I don't know if you'd call them values, but I guess values over the past couple of years. And I'm just, I don't know to like respect him and his views and still hold truth what's important to me yikes so give me some insight what is he what is he i mean this sounds like you are at the edge here like what is what has he changed his values on well I feel like I mean it's like little things like I'm a pretty conservative person and so like swearing never been like an awesome thing for me and so it's a little like I know a lot of conservatives is sure like great like sailors you don't like

swearing and he didn't and didn't, and now he does. And now he does. But then it escalates to the way we're parenting. We have four kids together. And so then it's like he thinks it's completely fine for a six-year-old to watch PG-13 movies or things that I feel like are too violent or things like that. And he thinks it's fine.

And so like, it's just, there's a wide range of things. What are the one or two that are driving you, like scaring you, making you uncomfortable? Well, I think we both grew up in the same religion and now he's having he's still somewhat believed but he also likes to say that I've been brainwashed and to like the way he speaks about it to me but yeah I just

he says he's always Um, but yeah, I just, I, he felt, I don't know. I don't know. He's, he says he's always been an angry person and for a long time he's tried to like not be that way, but I kind of almost feel like he's slipping into, well, this is just me and it's okay. And I almost kind of like it. And so I think that's one of the things that are scaring me the most. this is just me and it's okay. And I almost kind of like it. And so I think that's one of the things that are scaring me the most.

Is he becoming abusive? I wouldn't say physically, but like there are like emotionally stuff that's happening that I don't love. Give me an example of it. Um, he, he curses like a sailor, right? And so before it was always,

um, he would do it occasionally. Like if he were to hurt himself working or doing something, right. Um, and then it changed to, instead of calling inanimate objects those names, he turned it onto me.

And so now I'm getting called those things. That's it. Have you said, you will not curse at me in my home? Yeah, I've tried. What does he say to that? He almost kind of takes it as a challenge. Like, well, what are you going to do about it? I have something in my guts, Maria, that tells me there's something deeper here.

Because I'll just be honest. I've had periods of my marriage of 21 years when I completely walked away from my childhood faith. Walked away completely. My wife has had seasons when what she believes now is radically different from what she believed when she was married. Yeah. And both of us have loved being a steady partner for the other person while they're reconsidering things, learning new things, leaning on doubt, leaning on conviction, all those things.

But at no point has it ever turned to me versus you. Right. And that's what I don't love about the situation. And like, I know that sometimes I haven't handled things perfectly, but I still just feel like there's no... Hold on. If you ask your husband, do not swear at me. And he then fires up a bunch of swear words and says, what are you going to do about it? That's a power flex. Right. And that rarely happens in a vacuum. Yeah. That's a dude that looks down on his wife with disdain.

She is beneath him. She is not a person to be respected. I wouldn't do that to a, I swear too much, okay? Like I run my mouth too much. But also I try my best to be Respectful Yeah

And even when Kelly's like hey can you just Chill on the diarrhea jokes Yeah absolutely I mean depending on where we are Right You see what I'm saying it's not like oh you wait now That's just dumb That's just disrespectful

Right And so that's contempt That is It's not like, oh, you wait now. That's just dumb. That's just disrespectful. Right. And so that's contempt. That is a relationship that's being held together by string and duct tape. Right. What's the deeper issue here? Is he seeing somebody else? No. No? No.

No, I mean, we definitely have don't have enough time to get to all issues, but no, there's other things going on. So how can I help? I just, I want to know how to not feel like we're fighting about everything like I feel like our views are so opposite on most things and I just views are not the problem

views are not the problem it's the respect by which you treat each other that's the problem I've got very few of my closest friends share my specific faith in the way that i believe it very very few of my friends follow up and down with my political beliefs very few if any ideological beliefs beliefs about love

and care and marriage very very few but the way we engage each other and the way I respect them and the way they respect me guides everything and I think that's a great fallacy of the culture we live in now

which is you have to believe every single thing I do exactly the way I believe it. I think that's nonsense. It's not real. But we do have to be like respectful human beings and treat each other with dignity. Otherwise we're children. We're children. And so I don't think it's a matter of you'll have different beliefs. It sounds like your husband's treating you like dirt. And my question for you is why? It almost seems like you're giving him a pass. You're trying to make the problem the beliefs and not him.

Well, I can't do anything about him. But you can flip the lights on and call a spade a spade. Ultimately, here's the deal. You have to have an or what statement when you get down to somebody being super disrespectful or doing things that you think hurt your kids which if you are showing young children violent movies you are hurting your kids period if you're swearing at your kids screaming and cursing at your children or you're swearing at your kids, screaming and cursing at your children, or you're cursing at their mom in front of them, you're hurting your kids, period. If you land there,

if you're punching holes through sheetrock, I'm not hitting anybody, okay, you're creating an environment where everybody is terrified of what you're going to do next. If every time mom packs the kids up and is going to church, dad's sitting on the couch making fun of mom, yelling at mom,

you're so brainwashed, you're such an idiot, then you have to make a choice. This is the bed I've made, I'm going to lay in it? Or here's my or what statement. If you treat me like this again or scare the kids like this again we are going to leave and if you don't have an or what statement then your husband's question rings true what are you going to do about it and that feels like it's closer to home than you want to believe right yeah probably like at the very beginning of this call

you have a tone in your voice that says you are about to walk out that door and never turn around once do you dream about that day sometimes yeah sometimes can I tell you something you're not a bad person for having that thought

do you have a place you could go for a season for a couple of days not really you have a mom and a go for a season for a couple of days? Not really. Do you have a mom and a dad or a sister or a cousin you could go stay with for a while or a girlfriend? Nothing local. That's fine. It doesn't have to be local. Where are your tears coming from?

Are you mad at me? And that's okay if you are. Are you mad at him? Or is the realization of the true reality that you live in starting to wash over you? Or maybe all three. No, it's just, yeah, it's just, it's hard. Yeah. Because we go in these phases where we're fine. And we're not. But are you fine because you're playing peacekeeper? Probably. Or are you able to drop your shoulders and make your jokes back? Let me ask you this. Do you have a friend, a girlfriend there in town that you could sit down and go have coffee with and just put all this on the table and tell the truth?

Yeah. Would you consider doing that? There's something about saying it out loud in the physical presence of somebody else that crystallizes it and makes it real. And sometimes it shakes us out of our stupor. Because you spend a lot of your life numb and a lot of time in your own head don't you yeah yeah god you deserve a different kind of life than that murray you deserve to be loved and cherished and challenged and you and your husband never have to believe the same things but y'all do have to treat each other with respect and

you deserve laughter and rambunctious sex even though you have four kids for god's sake you and like you are worth all that fun building things planning for things having people over you're worth all that and it just feels like you have stuck stuck stuffed you so far down in a sock just to keep the peace inside your own home. Is that my only option? Like, to go out and ultimatum? I don't think that's going to go over well. Of course it's not it's not supposed to go over well it's supposed to keep you safe and whole

if you tell me that my first thought would always be we're going to get out of the house change the environment and go somewhere preferably over a meal where you can go slow and talk and you for the first time can be fully 100% honest preferably over a meal where you can go slow and talk.

And you, for the first time, can be fully 100% honest if and only if it's safe. If it's not safe, then you can't do it. You're going to get hurt, either physically or emotionally or both. Or if the kids are going to pay the price for your honesty, then you have to get a therapist, you have to get a professional, and you have to walk that route. But if you haven't done that, and you take your husband out and say,

hey, when we got together, we both believed this, we both believed this, we both believed this, and over the last few years, things have changed. Cool. People change. Esther Perel says most adults have three to four or five great loves in their lifetime. And if they work really hard, it's with the same person. I love that. I'm a very, very different person than the man my wife married. Several times over. That's awesome. But if you could tell your husband, hey, you changed i've changed our whole life is different because we got four kids

And now that we've got four kids we're butting up against some different beliefs. I don't believe six-year-olds should watch violent movies It really makes me feel gross when you curse and yell at me Makes me feel unsafe and scared. I'm just picturing myself, my wife taking me out and telling me those things. I would want to crawl under the table. I'd be so ashamed of myself. And I would commit then and there

to never do that again. But if you've done that and your husband's response is, what are you going to do about it? Then yeah, you may be at ultimatum stage. And if you think he's going to hurt you, you think he's unsafe, then you have to get some professionals in your area,

whether it's the police, whether it's a licensed therapist, whether it is some sort of other person in your life to have some of those conversations with. Because the alternative is your four kids growing up in a house and they think this is what love is. And this is what safety is. And this is how husbands treat wives. And let's make no mistake.

I read the data. Are you working full time? Yeah, I am. It would be really scary to be a single mom with four kids wouldn't it yeah for sure both economically practically professionally it's a nightmare so I'm not saying any of this is easy

I'm just saying I'm sick to my stomach for you and I wish so much better for you what are you thinking I don't know I tried we tried counseling for a little bit and I just What are you thinking? I don't know. We tried counseling for a little bit, and I wish we could go back to it, but things started to get honest, and he decided he didn't want to go back home. So he chose his comfort, and he chose his fantasy world over a united, healed marriage.

That's not what it feels like, hon. That's what it is. And I'm so sorry for you. I'm heartbroken for you. I guess the other option here, if you will convince me that you're safe, the other option here is for you to go see a counselor on your own. And begin to talk through, I need some new tools and some new skills so that I can begin to defend myself, stand up for myself, and ultimately make a transition plan if that day arises. I wish with all my guts I had better news for you, Marie.

But if you have a partner who says, I don't care what you say. Oh yeah? Watch this. You think that's bad? Watch this. Oh yeah? You want to tell the truth

in a counseling session? Well then screw you. I'm never going again. These kids are a bunch of babies. They can watch that. They're fine. Quit being such a whiny brat. You brainwashed.

Like, dude, you live in that world? I wish I had better news for you, man, but that's a toddler. You're married to a toddler who simply doesn't respect and love his wife. You deserve more than that. And the path from where you are right this second to being healed is a treacherous and scary one. Make no mistake.

So if you're my friend, if you're my sister, if you're one of my buddy's wives, call me. Well, if you're one of my buddy's wives. That's a whole different conversation. I think it starts with getting with a girlfriend and saying, I need to tell you some hard things and some very deep things. And my pro I know that you withheld on this call. You didn't tell me everything and that's fine. I totally understand that. But you sit down with a girlfriend and you tell her everything. Here's what we're going through. And I don't know what to do next. And call a counselor and say, here's everything. I don't know what to do next. And call a counselor and say, here's everything. I don't know what to do next. Let's start at those two places and get some people who live in your ecosystem, in your community, around your family.

Let's get them speaking into this. But I think you deserve more. I think you deserve more. And if your husband wants to call into the show, I'd love to talk to him. He won't, but I'd love to talk. Thanks for the call, Murray. We'll be right back. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life,

you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, we are back. And now it's everybody's favorite segment, Am I the Problem? Hey, Joe, do you have like some mustache, Camaro, like jeans tucked in your boots music that Kelly loves? Ah, Kelly. I just imagine when you clean the garage, this is what you listen to.

You have like a Marlboro Red and you're just like hanging out of your mouth and you're just cleaning the garage. Turn that back up, Joe. Where do you think I live? And you got jean shorts on. And your kids are like, Mom! and you got jean shorts on. You're like... And your kids are like, Mom! And you're like,

Quiet, kids. Seriously. Joe, that was money. All right, so what's up? I'm the problem, or am I the problem? Yes, you are. Listen, lady, listen.

Am I the problem? Let's do this. Go for it. All right, this is from Patrick in Georgia. My wife gets upset with me when I tell our daughter to go play or go do something else. However, my daughter constantly seeks attention from either my wife or myself all day long. After half the day, I start to feel like I can't have a coherent thought anymore. I tell her to go play or to do something else.

Am I the problem or is it me? Or am I the problem in saying this to her? Am I being unreasonable? No, your kids need to have alone time. They need to have boredom time. They need to have imagination time. Your kids need to learn how to self-soothe over time. Now, if you keep telling your kid,

go do something, go play. Sometimes the landscape of possibility is so great that can overwhelm a kid. So you can say, my wife taught me this. You can say, you can go play Legos or you can go color. Those are your two choices. I don't want to do either of those. I get that. And it feels super boring. But right now I have a project that I'm working on. I need to do this adult thing that does not include kids So, you know color you're gonna do this and they'll go And they'll go color or they'll go play legos And their body will figure out. Oh not the end of time at the end of time But if every time you they come back you stop everything you're like what what what?

Then it's kind of like uh, like a slot machine and every time they push the button, it spins and they win. They spins and they win. They've got to learn to walk away from the slot machine every once in a while. So I don't think you're the problem. I love putting kids in a gambling, you know, analogy together. I know.

I'm trying. I'm trying, Kelly. As the show goes, Hey, we had our best month again. Yes, we did. The best month ever. I think we just need to sign off and call it a day. I think you hurt my feelings sometimes in your camo jacket. Just in case a deer hunting expedition breaks out. Kelly's got it covered. Hey! I was about to say, y'all be nice to each other, but I'm not being very nice. I know I caught myself being a little bit of a hypocrite.

Hey, stay in school, don't do drugs. I'll see you soon. Bye.