The Dr. John Delony Show - Is My Hoarding Caused by My Anxiety?

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

On today’s show, we hear about: - A woman wondering if anxiety can cause hoarding - A dad debating whether to help his son or preserve their finances - A young woman worried she’s spending too much time with her boyfriend To pre-order John's new book Building a Non-Anxious Life click here. Lyrics of the Day: "Welcome to the Black Parade" - My Chemical Romance Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Hallow Thorne Add products to your cart create an account at checkout Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: Anxiety Test Own Your Past, Change Your Future Questions for Humans Conversation Cards Redefining Anxiety Quick Read John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. Instead of the hoarding disaster causing my anxiety, it seems like my anxiety was causing the clutter. That stuff was serving as some kind of moat around your castle that was supposed to protect you from the bad guys. What is going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney show. I'm so, so grateful that you joined us on this show about your mental and emotional

health and parenting and marriage and dating and trying to just figure out what in the world has happened with our world and more importantly, what we can do about our little path that we're on. I'm just continuing to be blown away by your support and your care. So thank you so much for joining us. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz, 1-844-693-3291, or go to johndeloney.com slash ask. Either one of those, you're going to leave a message or write in what's going on and we will reach back out and get in touch with you and have you on the show. And we're getting,

we get folks writing and calling in from all over planet earth, which is just phenomenal. So wherever you happen to be, wherever you're listening to this or watching this, so grateful that you're here. If you will take 8.2 seconds of your day

and just like or subscribe or add or whatever thing you're doing. If you're watching this on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button. It really makes a big difference for everybody. And don't forget my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, still in pre-sale. I just, at this point, as soon as I say that, I know you're just hitting that little

15-second just pass button. I get it. Totally get it. But also, it's $20 and we'll offer a bunch of free stuff with it if you'll go check it out. I'd be really go to johndeloney.com and most importantly today is battle of the bands at ramsey solutions where i work there's about a thousand eleven hundred employees here and everybody comes to nashville to make it right to be in the music industry and then at some point 99.9 of them have to get jobs and they they, a lot of them work here. And so every year the company shuts down in the afternoon and all of these people come out of the woods, like literally, like there's an admin who's the

greatest singer you've ever heard. Oh, there's a developer and she's writing code. And I've never seen anybody play guitar like that. Um, or Ben comes out. He's like the keyboard rapper, sing-along, screamo to the... I mean, it's amazing. Like, our drummer this year was on the American Idol tour. He's a killer. Everybody's incredible.

I don't even know where the bass player... I don't even know where Kyle learned to play like that, but he's one of the best I've ever... Anyway, it's incredible. Hopefully, by the time this comes out, we're celebrating our championship trophy. That's right.

And I like to see Ben already has his fingernails painted black, as he should. Bring back late 90s, early 2000 emo. It's not a face. It's a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle. That's what Kelly says about her haircut, but it's all good. Alright, let's go to Sacramento and talk to the great and powerful Lori.

What's up, Lori? Hey, Dr. Deloney. Thank you for taking time to help me. I don't know if I'm going to be any help, but I will take time to hang out with you. What's up? Yeah, well, I'm really excited about your new book about anxiety. I saw your interview with Don Madsen from Minimal Mom about decluttering. That was awesome.

And that's actually sort of where all this started. So my home's been cluttered for years. I mean, boxes piled high with my mom's clothes, her dishes, the kids' old toys, makeup, junk, everything is a mess. My kids' rooms and their upstairs bathroom were the only clean rooms in the house. So I panicked and ended up finding Minimal Mom on YouTube, and I felt safe enough to start getting myself out of this mess. So after about two years, I've now got rid of about eight huge fan loads of items. And with all the support from the Min mom, Facebook group, and then seeing your interview and starting to see some of your videos, um, like my entire house is basically minimal. Like I can't even believe it. Wow. Hey, can I just stop and say, congratulations, like,

like hoarding or on the borderline of hoarding or, um, as Josh Milburn with Minimalist calls it, organizing is just well-planned hoarding, right? Getting rid of that stuff is one of the hardest things to do when you're talking about mental and emotional health. It's hard. It's hard. So congratulations.

That's not an easy task. For some people listening, they're like, oh my gosh, you cleaned your house? Wow. No, no, no, no. This is different. This is hard. So congratulations.

Way to go. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It wasn't cleaning my house. It was like tearing me apart. That's right. Knowing that my kids deserve a better life and I deserve to be free of just living in clutter.

And so my question is about all the pain and conflict that came up. So like after cleaning out a room, I was supposed to be happy and peaceful. No, no, no, no. I'm like feeling lost and angry and confused. And what I think is that instead of the hoarding disaster causing my anxiety, it seems like my anxiety was causing the clutter. And recently, I'm also thinking like maybe childhood PTSD or something. So, yeah. So, like, how do I deal with all this anxiety? You don't even need to call me.

You figured it out. So, that stuff was serving as some kind of moat around your castle that was supposed to protect you from the bad guys. And one of those bad guys were old memories, your own nervous system, your current relationships or lack of, your current financial situation, your relationship with your kids, whatever. That just became your thing. So instead of a drink or instead of any number of numbing devices, you just built a wall around yourself. I would tell you there's something tragically wrong with your internal response system if after doing the decluttering that you have done, you were not sitting in this home with every anxiety alarm you have ringing off the hook because now you're exposed now you

have to deal with whatever was setting those alarms off in the first place and so um here's a weird like i think it's the suckiest thing about anxiety but i understand the mechanics of it um when you when your body identifies a threat so let's say your daughter comes home and slams the door and doesn't want to talk to you and you instantly roll back to when you were a kid and your mom did that same thing to you. Your mom would hold you hostage with her relationship. If you don't make me feel good, then I'm going to cut you off,

which is like taking oxygen from a child. Fast forward, your daughter does the same thing to you or your husband does or your boyfriend does and your body only has that one road that it knows to travel. And so it sets off all the alarms and you just start gathering stuff around you. Okay. When that stuff goes away and you have to just sit in that, now you got to deal with that actual relationship. You actually have to grieve it. Now here's, and the crappy thing about anxiety is when you avoid, when you get some stuff

and make yourself feel a tiny little bit better, your brain goes, oh sweet, that works. So the next time she slams the door, you go get more because your body knows, okay, this is going to protect us. This keeps us from having to deal with that. It keeps us safe. And it builds more and more and more. And so the worst part about anxiety is you have to deal with that. It keeps us safe. And it builds more and more and more.

And so the worst part about anxiety is you have to go through it. That's the only way. That's the only way to heal. It's the only way for the alarms to stop is to go directly towards them. And that's where you found yourself, right? You've cleared all the path and now you're just staring down at that, at the other end of this thing. So I'll flip it on you. You tell me when it comes to choosing freedom, when it comes to choosing reality, when it comes to the state of your finances, your reactive, your health, what is your body trying to get your attention and protect you from? Well, I think what's happening is that I'm realizing the mindset that has started this clutter to begin with. I've been really feeling responsible to take care of my mom's stuff and to keep her dishes.

And recently, I had found a lot of her old artwork. She had this really beautiful porcelain artwork. And I talked to my brother because I felt really guilty. I didn't want to sell it. I wanted to donate it and have somebody appreciate it. And I didn't want my brother to be upset. But he was like, you know, mom passed away 20 years ago. She died in 2004.

And it's not, I felt like I'm losing my mind. It's not like I'm delusional, but like it's been in the back of my mind thinking about these little pieces of objects. They're just objects. And it was running my life. And now I'm just feeling like lost. Like now what? When, when, when, when, when are you going to let your mom go? Yeah. And so she, hold on, hold on, hold on. You see you're, you're cluttering with words. Now you're cluttering with thoughts. You're going to spin it up. You're going to create a bubble around yourself. I'm not going to let you do it. At least on this call, you have to sit.

No, I I'm hearing you. You have to sit in it. Your mom is not at rest yet because you won't let go. Why? Yeah. Was she great to you? That's what I'm discovering. Was it really gnarly growing up? Like, what was it? She was an alcoholic, and she had a mental illness, and she would go into rages. She was isolated. She was paranoid. She started, when I was in my teens, she started drinking really heavily, but my mom was like amazing. I mean, especially looking back, she did such a great job. It's just everything's

so confusing. Here's what it is. I have come to believe, and I might sit down with a neuroscientist someday or a child psychiatrist, they're going to tell me I'm crazy. I don't think I am. If a parent leaves, they just disappear on you. They abandon you as a kid. That is tragic on a hundred different levels, starting with neurochemistry and then ending up in your nervous system and all the way through and how it manifests in the real world. I think having a parent who struggles with addiction is worse. And here's why. Because they are in a child's home, they are there in body, but they are completely gone. And if a parent leaves, a child has to deal with the reality that there is no physical presence of my safe place. I have to figure another safe place out.

But when they're an alcoholic, they're right there. And you ever seen those like old spy movies where they have that three-prong hook and they're tied to a rope and they're trying to throw it over the wall so they can catch it and they can pull themselves up that's what kids do every second of every day trying to connect with mom and dad and if you have a mom that you were never able to plug into you have a little girl still asking you herself over and over again what is so bad about me? I'll try this, I'll try this, I'll try this. And then she went and died on you before you got an answer to that.

And so you have not let her go. Oh yeah, I was in my late 30s. I was in my almost 40s when she passed away. That does, I don't care about that. So I'm an adult. I know, it doesn't matter. That nine-year-old girl. It would have been the same, yeah. That nine-year-old girl is still sprinting on that treadmill. she passed away I don't care about that I'm an adult it doesn't matter that nine year old girl that nine year old girl

is still sprinting on that treadmill yeah and you gotta sit down with that nine year old you and say she didn't drink

cause of me and she loved you the best she could but she had demons that you will never fully realize and understand yeah that's true best she could, but she had demons that you will never fully realize and understand.

Yeah, that's true. And you've got to let mom go in the present. Yeah. Well, the, the first steps that I took were trying to think about it and the council like they have no idea what to do. Don't think about it. It's going to make you nuts. Was declutter. That was the only thing I knew how to do. Don't think about it. It's going to make you nuts. The first thing I could do was declutter. That was the only thing I knew how to do. And like Dawn and the Minimal Mom Facebook group and you

and I just went to all these resources and I thought the demons are so big I can't think about them but I can take steps and get one piece decluttered and that's my home.

That's, I can start there. And so in the video game of your life, you've gone through all of the other stages and you have now reached the final dragon. Yeah, right. And that's why I'm calling you because now what do I do? You sit down tonight and for the first time I want you to write your mom a letter. Actually, I always tell people to write your mom a letter actually I always tell

people to write three so you owe her three letter number one is how much I miss you and you have to be very specific almost reliving in a way remember that time we remember that time you took me to I miss you so much and I've had this thing that I needed you for and you're not here. And I'm so, I'm just heartbroken. I miss you. The second letter has to be truth-telling. Here's what you did. Here's what I missed. Yeah. You drank half of my childhood away and the other half you were so tired or so exhausted or so mean And then the third letter has to be and you can't hedge that by the way You can't hurt her feelings. She's not here

Yeah But you have to let yourself finally feel the truth that you have never been able to tell yourself because you hid that truth Because you're trying to get her to love you somehow. And it was never about that. Yeah, my job was to make sure to glue her together. No, my job was to be a little kid. Your job was to be a kid. And the third letter is, here's what you're going to miss.

Here's how excited I am about what comes next in my life and I just wanted you to be a part of it. Just wanted to let you know. Did you ever have any doubt that she loved you? Well, the amazing thing is when I was cleaning up her house and I was going through her drawers, I had gotten into recovery and I was trying to talk to her, but she was like a really shut down person.

Like you had to make appointments to go to her house to see her. And so. Hold on. You realize that's madness. You realize that's madness. Yes. Yeah. She was paranoid.

She was paranoid. Yeah. But let's move her aside. I'm talking about you, the kid. Well, the thing that was amazing to me that finally just, it was mind-blowing. I was cleaning out her stuff, and I found a drawer full of Alcoholics Anonymous literature. She had gone to meetings as scarce as she was of people. She was getting clean.

She was getting sober. It was like, wow. And that was because I took the steps i was the first person in my family to take the steps to go get clean are you still sober oh yeah well it's you know it's really funny i didn't even do the math since i was telling my kids yesterday today is my 30 year clean i've been clean and sober for 30 years today. Congratulations. And can I be harsh a little bit? And I mean, not harsh, but just tell honestly, you were clean from alcohol, drugs, whatever for 30 years, which is so incredible. I would hug you if you were standing here.

Oh yeah. I would ask you if I could hug you and then I would hug you. The second thing is in some ways you just traded alcohol for junk. Yeah. And so I want you to look at this new phase as you're getting sober again. Okay. And the 12 steps are incredibly instructive. And I know people roll their eyes about it. They're powerful because they force you to step back and say, this is bigger than me. I've got to have something bigger than me. I've got to believe in something bigger than me. I've got to have other people. I have to say these things out loud. And you have to go make amends. And one of the single most important amends you need to make is to Lori. You've got to let that little girl off the hook.

Is that fair? is to Lori. You got to let that little girl off the hook. Yeah. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah, absolutely. So, and I've surrounded myself with the, like you and Don and the mental alum. It's like,

you've been my support group. I know, but I know, but we are, we're imaginary. Lori, Lori, Lori.

We're imaginary. We're not real. Don is my. No, I mean, I've developed relationships with the women on the Facebook group. I know, but they're not real. They're on Facebook. They're not real. They are real. Dawn's my friend.

Dawn and I have sat, and she's helped me personally with some challenges. Dawn is my friend. I've got her cell phone number. But Dawn and I, for you, are images on a screen. Those Facebook women are... She's been sending me a lot of support.

I know, I know, I know. She sends me videos. Here's what I'm pushing. I mean, at this point, it's all I have. I know, but here's your next step, though. You've got to make

personal relationships with people in your world. You've got a little girl that says, I'm not worth being loved or being around otherwise for god's sakes my mom would have showed up and so when you're around people your body goes to war because people are not safe because person number one that's supposed to always be there wasn't she was in a bottle and so how is lori gonna hook be friends with susan who lives next door susan's like a banker and on the other side is dan and he's just weird and his cars are

funny like that's where you have to go because your your body cannot go to rest until it has people in the real world in real proximity it would be failing you if you if it let you sleep at night it would be failing you i've had a oh yeah go ahead no as you say it its job is to keep you spun up and anxious right now because it knows we are not safe because we cannot do life by ourselves. And Facebook is a good approximation, but it's not real. Yeah. I've had a support group of women since 1997, and we get together once a month and we're in each other's lives for, what's that, 25 years. Double it. So yeah, so now I'm kind of starting to get this whole new, like the decluttering thing and kind of starting to reach out and kind of getting these

new groups. Okay. So that's good. Yeah. And my, my women's support group is amazed and they've been holding my hand with me like every step of the way. And now I'm kind of getting these new Facebook friends. And the thing I love about them is they know what I'm talking about. My women friends love me, but they're like, wow, we don't know. And the women on the group and like, I'm starting to get people who understand this whole piece of my life that's just opened up in this last two years. So now I'm starting to get those friends. Okay. So here's, here's next step. I'm starting to get those friends. Okay, so here's next step. I want you to write those three letters

and it's going to take a couple of days. I want you to spend letter one, spend a day or two. Letter two, spend a day or two. Letter three, spend a day or two. And then I want you to call the women, the real life women, into your home,

your new, clean, decluttered home. And they'll all be amazed. Give them a tour. Let that sink in, how proud of you they're going to be. I want you to feel that. Don't deflect it. Oh, no, it's because of Dawn. It's because of Deloney.

No, no, no, no. We're just people on pod. You did the work. And then I want you to read the letters to them out loud in person. Let them sit in a circle around you. I want you to read the letters to them out loud in person. Let them sit in a circle around you. I want you to feel that room. Let your body feel that room. Let your body feel we are not alone.

As David Kessler says, grief demands a witness. We're going to grieve in front of our friends. At some point, not before, but maybe after you post those letters to your Facebook community. And they are going to be your community that walks alongside you that says, okay, now that we're here, you got to go see a trauma counselor. You got to deal with that. You've got to start going to Al-Anon meetings.

You've got to sit down and do some body work or some EMDR, or you've got to do some heavy duty stuff to let your body be at peace with letting your mom go. And the things that you've had to make peace with relationally with your kids or your friends that you've heard over the years, you're going to have to make peace with that. But that is not done by yourself. Just thinking about it can't, cannot be done thinking about it.

It's got to be done in reality with your body. I'm really, I mean, to tell you I'm proud of you is like the understatement of the year. I don't even have the words for it. You inspire me. I got a lot of decluttering I got to do at my house. In fact, Dawn and I have talked extensively about it.

And by the way, for everyone who's listening, if you struggle with that stuff, Dawn Madsen is amazing. You can check out her stuff. Josh Fields Milburn and TK Coleman and Ryan Nicodemus with The Minimalist, they're incredible too. They're also great friends. Really great folks in walking you through the decluttering

process. They've got some plans on how to do it. At my house, it's just so overwhelming. They're really remarkable. Hang on the line, Lori. I'm going to send you a copy of my brand new book on me. I'm just for free. And Jenna will get it sent to you. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. Do those three things, tell your friends, and then holler back girl at me. And you're supposed to say, I ain't no holler back girl. Holler back. And then I want to see how, I want to let everybody know who listens to the show, how you're doing. I'm proud of you. It's awesome. We'll be right back. Hey, good folks. Let's talk about hallow. All right. I say this all the time. It's important to get away for times of prayer

and meditation by yourself with no one else around. But one thing you might not think about though is maintaining a sense of community when you pray or meditate. And this is especially if you don't consider yourself religious, if you question things, or if you've been burned

by a church experience in the past, it's hard to want to get together with other people. And that's another reason why I love Hallow. You can personalize your prayer experience with Hallow, and they give you three free months to do it. You can pray or meditate by yourself, or you can connect with friends, with family, a prayer group, or some other community that you choose. And this way you can share prayers, share meditations. You can even share journal reflections to grow in your faith together with others.

And with Hallow, there are other ways you can personalize the app. They have downloadable offline sessions and links ranging from one minute up to an hour. And you can listen where it works for your schedule. You can choose your guide, your background music. You can create your own personal prayer plan and more. I've made it a personal point to begin my day every single day

with the hallow meditation on the scripture of the day. It's a discipline and it's a practice. And here's what I'm learning. As with anything of importance and meaning, prayer takes intentionality, practice, and showing up even when I don't feel like it and even I don't want to. This is discipline. Sometimes you do this by yourself, and sometimes you do this with a group,

and Halo helps you with both. Download the number one prayer app on planet earth, Halo, right now. And listen, viewers and listeners of this show, get three free months when you go to halo.com slash Deloney. It's amazing. Three free months of the app when you to hallow.com slash Deloney. It's amazing. Three free months of the app when you go to hallow.com slash Deloney. Go right now and change your life. All right, we're back. Let's go to Justin in Colorado Springs. What's up, Jay Money? How we doing? Hey, thank you for having me. Of course. What's up? Well, I've got a kind of a life decision I need to make that's causing me a lot of anxiety. My oldest child is showing early signs of depression that I'm really concerned will eventually escalate to something life-threatening.

We think that moving a couple hours north near family and cousins, he has a close relationship will help a lot. But I'm in this anxious situation where it doesn't matter if I decide to move or to stay. I have so much anxiety that I can't seem to function. I've lost 15 pounds in three weeks and I've taken a few days off of work because I just couldn't get myself to work. And I'm not sure what to do. Before you do anything else, you have to commit to go getting just and well. Because you're not. And you haven't been for a long time, have you?

No, it's been a long road. It's been a long time. I am very hesitant to tell you what I'm about to tell you, okay? Because it's not always causal And I have no intention of heaping guilt or anything like that on you Are you in a place where I can be super honest with you? Yeah How old's your kid?

He is 15 Tell me about this stuff he's experiencing. Because you hinted at he's on the path to dying by suicide. So walk me through where he's at, where he's come. What's kind of the origin story here? So go back in time. Last year, he was in eighth grade, middle school. About the end of the first quarter of the school year.

Um, he, he kinda noticed that his grades started slipping and they took a very steep trajectory down to, to just not passing in just about all of his grades. Um, we, we talked to him and he was very complacent. He didn't, he didn't really care. Um, when he has a lot of work to do, he gets overwhelmed. For example, on a Saturday, he was doing a math worksheet that was just front and back, maybe 16 questions, and he was working on it for six hours. But it took him that long because he was just frozen. He couldn't handle it. And eventually, we got some help. We got him a life

coach. We've, we, we started having very strict consequences for not getting homework done. And he has eventually gotten himself together. He has had, he's gotten good grades. Um, and that's because we're on him all the time. He doesn't take responsibility for it. He, he doesn't, um, he's still in that state. If we were to let up, he would go responsibility for it. He doesn't. He's still in that state. If we were to let up, he would go back to it. I just got to jump in here. Is that okay? Yeah.

This is a hard conversation to have because we're not in person. I don't like having this over the phone, okay? I just need to say that up front. Because if you could see my body language, it's going to be very different than what you're going to experience on the phone, okay? Mm-hmm. because if you could see my body language it's going to be very different than what you're going to experience on the phone okay but you literally just called me explaining how you are paralyzed and frozen with a decision to make and my guess is that's been the course of action and so in many ways your son is just simply operating with the set of operating instructions he's had in front of him his whole life and you're exactly right when i find found out that straight a's can be a trauma response to i was set free because that's how i've handled it i don't have two phds because i'm that

smart i have it because I was that broken and insecure that I kept chasing and chasing something so that somebody would tell me I had value. And so the question here isn't life coach and you stupid, lazy little boy, and I can't freaking believe you. The response is sitting on the bed with him and saying, bro, me too.

My whole life, me too. We've tried to help in a very loving way. It hasn't been like, you're stupid. I know, I know, I know, I know. But he'll hear you. But more importantly than hear you, he'll watch you and he will feel you. And that's why I tell you before anything, I mean, obviously he's got to make his bed. He's got to turn his grades in. He's got to turn his stuff. And I'm not saying for a not accountable home, but I'm going to tell you my home changed. Some of these problems that I was reading books about and calling my colleagues all across the country, some of the best experts in the world

on some of these problems evaporated when I went and did the counseling work that I needed to do. That is not true for everybody. That's why I don't like saying it because it's not causal. I can't point every kid who's struggling with depression in the world because their parents are have whatever. But the way you're laying this out for me, it sounds very similar. How long have you struggled with this?

How long have you wrestled with things being kind of low? Just kind of dysthy things being kind of low just kind of dis time it kind of anxious it's been forever oh we've been married 16 years and it's definitely been for all of that where did you pick that up where did where did you pick up that you were only as good as your report card um I think I picked it up from my own childhood uh we always had the standard that um we we don't fail in school we don't do that we work hard um in my childhood our parents divorced and it was a fairly ugly divorce um no abuse, but emotionally not. I'm going to just invent a map here

that you and I would have to spend weeks together to fully flesh out. But here's a story I can make up real quick. There's a nasty, gnarly divorce. And by the way, I want to take apart, I want to separate we don't fail from we work really hard. That ideal has got us where we are as a culture

because we have a whole bunch of people that are terrified and puckered up to fail, which means nobody's going all in because everything's about the grade at the piece of paper, not about the effort and the, let's just go solve this problem. And we're going to make some mistakes along the way. Companies that celebrate failure do better

than companies that celebrate how shiny the exterior of the building is. So I'm going to imagine you as a 9-year-old little kid or a 7-year-old little kid who had one job, and that was to figure out how you could fix mom and dad. And the way you kept every adult in your life happy was getting a grade. And suddenly you outsourced your sense of well-being by a performance standard, a scorecard. And then that scorecard becomes your child. And if your child behaves and your child does well, then you are doing good. And if your child drops the ball in the Little League game and your child doesn't get grades X and your child falls off a map, then you're failing as a parent. That's your grade as an F and you will work really hard. Is that, is that ringing a bell? I'm just making that up. Does that ring a bell?

Yeah. I was, I was also always the peacekeeper in the home as a kid. That's right. Yeah. At some point you have to go do the scary terrifying and i've been there it's hard work of sitting with a counselor and asking yourself and walking through with somebody oh man it wasn't me that was so unlovable this whole time because what you're what you as a guy who's worked with adolescents my entire career, when you told me about your son's performance following up a map, I instantly went to one of a few things. He found drugs. His body is shutting itself down because he cannot keep up with this performance standard.

He doesn't know how to make you happy. Or number three, he is disconnected, completely unplugged. He has no one to plug into. I would say it's number three. I don't think that we have such high standards that he's just overwhelmed by it. I think that... No, no, no, not standards, not standards. Let me say it.

My expectation for my kid my son my expectation for him is that he worked really hard with the machinery and the wiring and the resources he was just dropped into planet earth with and he happened to have won the cosmic lottery and he was born to two parents who are still married who love each other, who work really hard, who treat each other with respect, and who both have multiple graduate degrees. And one of his parents was an expert in teaching kids how to develop cognitively.

And then he ended up with another parent that was an expert in taking adolescents through. And so I've got very high excellent standards because of so i could care less about his grades but he's gonna work really hard and i know if he works really hard the grades will more than take care of themselves yeah but that's different than you will get an a and all of that has to be anchored into, I love you so much. I'm with you.

And most of that has come from me sitting, taking him to breakfast once a week for the last few years saying, dude, when I was your age, I screwed this up here. And here's what I did at work the other day that I wish I could have back. Does that make sense? And so whether you move or not, how do you think this move is going to solve all of this? Um,

he, he doesn't have any friends. He's very close to his cousins and the move would put them in the same school with his cousins. Uh, it would help them with some social skills and, and the school is significantly better. It's a smaller school.

It's highly rated. It's, I think it'd be a good, good fit for him rated. I think it would be a good fit for them. So I think it would help them with the social aspect. But you don't want to do this or you can't do this. Why? I think it's because of some of my own struggles in the past. We moved to our current area because we noticed that every time we moved for a job,

and by the way, it took me 10 years to get into a career. I failed out of college several times, but I eventually did graduate and I work as a software engineer now. But we noticed every time we moved, our mortgage would get more expenses, our living expenses would go up. And so we decided we're going to buy a house that we're comfortable in, a good area, and we're going to raise our kids the rest of their lives in this area. Not only that, but I felt comfortable here. I felt like the house was comfortable. I felt like our life was comfortable. My career was comfortable. 10, 15 years being frozen in fear a lot of times and unable to provide for my family,

not unable to provide, but struggle to provide. And, and I feel like this move is going to upend all of that. Like, like for example, moving up a couple hours up North is going to cause like a 40% increase in our mortgage. And we're going to be right back into that financially unstable situation again. And all of this tells me that you're not okay. What you've done is you've created an entire life around avoidance. Yeah. I am all about, if you have an opportunity, your kid's getting bullied, your kid is in a toxic school, which those do exist, and you have the opportunity to move them to a safer place, great. You have the opportunity to move them over into

another school or whatever. I'm all about that. That's fine. I think it would be really good. Millions of people don't have that option, but that's great. But what you're going to do is you're going to continue to reinforce that out there somewhere is where everything is okay. And that's not where healing from anxiety comes. That's not where healing from depression comes. That's not where any sort of relational healing comes from. None of that is extrinsic. That's not true.

If you're being abused or you're in abject poverty or you're being bullied on a daily basis, yes, a change of environment is powerful and huge and important. But you haven't healed. You've just created a place where you can bubble wrap yourself. Where I'm currently at? Yes. Yeah.

I'm assuming you've been to counseling and done all that stuff for years? No, this anxiety got so bad that i finally did just in the last month or so and and his first feedback was i probably have chronic depression yeah that's what it sounds like but there's no way i'm going to diagnose you on this thing but um sounds like you've got some significant work to do and And let me tell you this on the other side, okay? Can I give you like just like I want to shine a big bright light of hope, okay? All right.

I'm a mess in all the best kind of ways, I hope. Kelly right now is waving her hand at me like I'm a lot to work with and I know that okay but on most days not all most days I just fall asleep when I get home because I'm tired and on most days not all days my kids come tackle me when I walk in the door and on most days my wife and I's marriage is pretty good not always we have seasons when it's tough and we get off track and we have to like walk back on the track again But i'm a hundred percent confident that if my boss came in Tomorrow and just said show's over you're fired Man, I would be low. I would be sad because I like this

I like being able to sit with people and I like all the people I get to work with And then in a few weeks it would be on to the next because I like this. I like being able to sit with people and I like all the people I get to work with. And then in a few weeks, it would be on to the next. And I'd be sad and I'd be angry, but I wouldn't be anxious and I wouldn't fall off a cliff into a black hole again. You see the difference?

Yeah. But that has only come from a bunch of hard, hard work with a therapist and a bunch of hard work with how I move and how I eat and all that stuff that I didn't want to deal with, but it's reality. Sounds like you have good confidence that you could recover, and I don't know that I have that confidence. That's right, and I promise you, I promise you,

I did not have that before we started this adventure. And so the reason I'm telling you, the hope is there. I'm on the other side of it. Actually, I'm not on the other side of it every day. I'm just making some choices. It's like having bad breath, man. I brushed my teeth twice a day, so I don't have bad breath. It'll come back in two days if I don't deal with it. What you've got to do is get those skills, deal with the stuff in the past, let your body rest finally, and then begin to just build it out. Whenever somebody tells me that their kid is struggling inside their own home, my question is always, how's your marriage? My question is always, how are your finances and your stress in your home?

How are you? Because so often, not always, but so often our kids take their cues from us. And I love you enough to tell you, you got to go do that hard work. So wherever you end up moving, by the way, I think of 40, I wouldn't, I wouldn't buy a house then maybe for the next few years you rent. And if that makes your heart start racing, I can't breathe. And then we're going to go deal with that. We're going to head straight into that storm. But if your counselor immediately identified, whoa, you've been carrying some bricks for a long time, brother, and your body has been running low for a long time, let's go straight into that.

Let's jump straight into that. And let's be really honest and vulnerable with our son. Hey, son, I've been dealing with chronic anxiety for years, and I didn't even know it. And I think you've picked that up from me. And we have some very special attributes that the rest of the community doesn't have, and our bodies are pretty sensitive to the signals in our world. I'm getting after it. I'm going to go work on it.

I hope you'll come with me. You got to make your bed, and you still got to turn your homework in. Still going to hold you accountable. But we've got a hard path ahead of us and I'm going first. And when your kid has a ringside seat to, oh, that's what a dad going on a healing adventure looks like

and you give him a roadmap and he may not follow you right away, but he'll always know, I know a path. I know a path out of here. I know a path out of here because my old man took that first step hang on the line i'm gonna send you building a non-anxious life new books it's going to give you a path and i'm also going to hook you up with six months of better help for free i know you're in a therapist at home but i

want you to have an option that you can call you can text that you have somebody else that you can call, you can text, that you have somebody else that you can reach out to. Please continue seeing that counselor and do the hard work. You're worth it. Your whole household is worth it. Figure out the move later. Let's start getting well now. We'll be right back. All right, what's up? We're back. Let's go to Washington, D.C., where everything is thought through and calm and peaceful. And talk to Christine. What's up, Christine? Hi. Thank you so much for having me on.

Of course. What's up? Okay. So just a quick rundown, I guess. I'm 23. My boyfriend is 25. We've been dating for a little over six months now. We're both pretty sure that this is it. We're going really well.

Gross. How are you already sure? All right. I've been married for 21 years and my wife said something the other day and I looked at her and I was like, I don't know you, but if you haven't figured it out in six months, good for you. Good for you. All right. So what's up? We're given a time. We're given a time. You're 22. 23? How old are you?

I'm 23. 23. It's a big difference. Jenna, how does the Taylor Swift song go? It's 22. 22. Which yesterday you said it was 21. It's 21.

Whatever. It's a 20-something song. I thought I was getting all confused, Christine. All right, so you're 23. He's 25. Y'all have figured it out. Yeah, you know, no problems ahead of us at all. None, none.

Okay, so what's up? So it's going great. Family loves him. My friends love him. And I know this like issue doesn't have to do with him. But the issue I've run into is with my like group of girlfriends that I've had since like childhood, we're like best friends. We do everything together. Um, have, you know, like keep in

touch over texts, call. I see them a lot. Um, but in the last like two months, two of them have like separately and now like together, um, have kind of come up to me and said that they think I'm spending too much time with my boyfriend and that they feel that I'm not prioritizing them as much as I should. Hold on. All right, keep going. This is awesome. Keep going. Okay. And I can give you a background why I know that that's not true. No, because I don't even know any of your background and I know that's not true. And here's why. Okay.

You, you get to decide what your relational priorities are. Yeah. Yeah. And if you have found the one, it just makes sense. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You have found the one. It just makes sense. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

And I'll tell you, you will have some friends that are so freaking excited for you. Yeah. Watching their friend be in love and be gross and silly. And I don't want to wait. Like all Dawson's Creek doubt. Like that's so like, and awesome. So great. And then you're going to have a couple of old friends who the way they want their life to go is now disrupted because somebody else has found love and joy and different relationship priorities. Yeah. And instead

of looking in the mirror, they start throwing grenades. Yeah. And you're about to experience, if you're not already what i think was the most heartbreaking thing that i didn't know about i wasn't prepared for actually the most heartbreaking thing i wasn't prepared for was getting married but second to that second to that was like i can't put into words the friendships i had as an elementary school kid and as a high school kid yeah brothers is high school kid. Yeah. Brothers is all I can, is the best. I mean, I'm talking about guys who would lay down in traffic for me and vice versa.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was unprepared for turning 23 and 25 and 28 when one guy makes a decision like, dude, I'm not hanging out with you. If that's how you're going to roll. Yeah. guy makes a decision like dude i'm not hanging out with you if that's how you're gonna roll when yeah somebody gets in a bad car wreck and everything shifts and one guy moves away when i went to grad school when somebody else gets fired from their job somebody else gets married another person gets married somebody's a kid i was unprepared for how lost i was when my brothers started living their own lives. Okay. I was really dumbfounded when my bestest, best friends in,

when I was in my thirties, when we all started having kids and it was amazing at first. And then one of them turned out to be a Cub Scout dad. Then the other one turned into be like a little league dad where he would like doodle little league plays on his work pad next to his phone. And then I was like, let's go like on adventures, dad. And they were like, it's hot. We're not going out.

So I started realizing, oh, we're just, this is the part where we shift again. Yeah. And so you just have to do the hard work with a few people that are going to root for you when things are great for you. And that will hold you accountable. Now, if they were calling and saying, hey, we think this guy's not a good guy. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's not, that's not. When you're with him, you are, we see our friend who we love sacrificing her soul to be with this guy. That's a different thing because they've earned the right to speak into that. But if it's just like, you should be with us more, and they start singing Avril Lavigne lyrics to you,

it's time just to, as the great Jay-Z said, dust your shoulders off. And I know that sounds callous. Okay, so I threw a lot at you. What do you think? Yeah, it's hard. I know. I don't know. I guess I just – I think my biggest thing is I just,

I feel so guilty about it. And it's gotten to a point where like, if I ever choose hanging out, like going out to dinner with my boyfriend, instead of going out for drinks with my girlfriends, I feel guilty about it, even though I'm, I'm so joyful when I'm with him and like at peace, I don't know. I guess, how do I not feel so guilty about it, even though I know I'm doing the right thing? I don't think that's, that just takes time. I would tell you, choose guilt over resentment every single time. Because if you choose to not hang out

with the person you want to be with, and the person that you have more fun with, and the person that looks at you and is like, you're my girl forever. Like all that back of the tailgate country song stuff. If you choose to not be with him, to go sit and tell the same high school stories and have the same drinks and the same, oh my gosh, you're going to start to resent those women. Yeah. You're going to hate it when they text you a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, and so choose guilt over resentment You love them enough to not let them drag you underwater into hate. Yeah

Yeah, the second thing is Here's an important way i've shifted the way I experience Guilt in the world, especially when it comes to relationship stuff And this is a hundred percent true across the board. You can only show up for your friends if you're whole. Yeah. If you're not okay, hanging out with your friends is you are not loving them.

Yeah. Right. So you've got to be whole and if you continue so when i say my boundaries out loud the things that keep me whole hey guys i don't drink anymore hey guys i found out and it's embarrassing that if i have gluten i have rocket diarrhea for like five days and so like whatever it is you're gonna have all your buddies they buddies. They're supposed to make fun of you. That's their job. Like, oh, this guy can't eat any food.

And that's fine. That's just me being a grownup and thinking it's funny. And they've got their things. But there's always that one friend that's like, are you freaking kidding me? And they'll bring gluten stuff everywhere and just shove it on you. Right. Or every time you go to the, oh, you're going to the gym. Oh my God.

And they just want to shut up. At some point, they are choosing to not be in a relationship with me, not the other way around. Yeah. And that's heartbreaking. So the heartbreak that you're experiencing, I want you to flip it around. You aren't feeling guilty because you have found somebody that you care about

and you love and you actually just like hanging out with them more than the other people which is a hundred percent normal by the way yeah in that in that scenario you are the bad guy and you're guilty for choosing a over b in the other scenario your friends are choosing to be selfish over watching their friend fall in love and be have so much joy they are choosing to not be over watching their friend fall in love and have so much joy. They are choosing to not be in a relationship with you. So instead of those feelings being guilt, those feelings are sadness and heartbreak. Because you thought those girls loved you more than that. Yeah.

And they don't. They love themselves. Those women are about them, not you. Yeah. And that is a heartbreak you got to sit with. That stings, right? Yeah. But they are opting out of a heartbreak you got to sit with that stings right yeah but they are opting out of relationship with you because they want their picture more than they want your joy and happiness yeah and i hate that for you yeah but i'm also glad you found the one It makes everything perfect.

Yeah. It so doesn't. It so doesn't. Has he farted in front of you yet? Um, I don't know if he has. Oh, you would know.

That means y'all haven't got there yet. Six months in. It's so perfect. Y'all aren't even close, but awesome. But awesome. Yeah. Um,

you're not broken there's not something wrong with you yeah thank you that helps I it's just I guess it's just

kind of new territory for me and figuring out like I don't know I just I just so enjoy being with him

and it feels weird that I prefer that over my friends now and I don't know love love my friend George Campbell just had a baby this morning are we allowed to announce that yet yeah it'll be out there for my friends now. Love, love. My friend, George Campbell,

just had a baby this morning. Are we allowed to announce it yet? Yeah, it'll be out there by the time it's out. Yeah, it'll be out by the time the show airs. And the message I sent him was, everything in your life just changed.

Because he didn't know. He didn't know. And when my buddies, like, dude, I think I'm going to ask this girl to marry me. And then they call and they're like, she said yes. And I would always tell them,

everything just changed. Yeah. Love makes you realize the things that you thought were important, weren't that important. Love helps you sift through those other relationships and a few will make it through because they will be all about loving you

and this new knucklehead you've decided to be with. And if y'all break up in two months, those women who were so excited for you will be the ones that come over to your house with nachos and sadness and just sit with you and light candles and talk bad about them and sprinkle you with essential oils and thieves and whatever. Like they'll do all that stuff, right? And the other girls will say, I told you so. Yeah, that is kind of accurate. Yeah. And you don't want those women in your life. They're opting out. They're opting out. You are good to go. You're good to go, Christine. I'm proud of you. And I like, I'm such a sucker for a love story. I love it when people fall in love. So I'm really excited for you. That's fun. Even if it doesn't

work out long-term because you're still basically a child It's still pretty awesome and i'm excited for you. I do hate it that your friends are opting out but I hate to say this this will be the rest of your life You'll get a job somewhere that you're excited about and two people will opt out And you'll have two kids and somebody will opt out or you'll choose to have no kids and people will opt out And I think the great challenge of our life isn't to run around

and make sure everybody is okay, that we're making sure that their world is good at our expense. I think it is sitting in that sadness and heartbreak when people choose to opt out of relationship with us. Because that hurts. You're awesome, Christine. I'm trying to think of a good 80s metal song,

but those all ended pretty tragically. So go get it. Go get married. Hey, Jenna, is there a Taylor Swift song about young love? I was going to say Dear John, but that was not a good song, right? Sweet Nothing. Sweet Nothing, Christine. Listen to that song.

I don't know. Is that good? Sure. Sure. All right. We'll be right back. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet

has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com.

All right, as we wrap up today's show, back in the early 2000s, there was this band called My Chemical Romance, and they wrote a song called Welcome to the black parade it was fine it's fine it was this gothic anthem about loss and love and you can do it and sad poetry about our dads and all that but then in 2023 a band was born by the name of my weekly low which was kind of making fun of our weekly report tool here at the office. And that band took the song Welcome to the Black Parade and gave it the appropriate treatment to where now children run out of the auditorium to go repair their relationships with their friends and family. People have already created like nuclear reactors and stuff

after we've performed it. This is like Bill and Ted's 2. I think we're going to align the planets. China's going to call and be like, hey guys, our bad, our bad. Let's be friends. North and South Korea will make amends. Russia's going to call Ukraine

and be like, guys, we've lost it. Let's come back together. They're going to get sacks of McDonald's cheeseburgers and just, we're going to figure this out. Our cover of this song will solve world peace. I have no doubt. And even though we play it exactly the same and the lyrics are exactly the same, I think that it's going to come through better. Oh, yeah.

With our version. I think they sold, what, 40 million copies of this, but it's going to be our rendition in front of a few of our work colleagues. Y'all heard it here first, everybody, on the greatest show of all time. Welcome to the Black Parade. It goes like this. When I was a young boy, my father took me to the city to see a marching band. He said, son, when you grow up, will you be the savior of the broken, the beaten, and the damned? He said, will you defeat them grow up, will you be the savior of the broken, the beaten and the damned? He said, will you defeat them, your demons and all the non-believers, the plans they've made?

Because one day I'll leave you a phantom to lead you in the summer to join the black parade. And sometimes I get the feeling she's watching over me. And other times I feel like I should go and do it all, the rise and fall, the bodies in the streets. And when you're gone we want you all to know we'll carry on and though you're dead in God believe me your memory will carry on

my heart I can't contain it it's a lifestyle wait what is it's not a lifestyle it's a what it's not a phase it's a lifestyle it's a lifestyle paint your fingernails black, America. Welcome to the Black Parade. I love you guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bye.