The Dr. John Delony Show - My Dad Almost Died & I Didn't Feel Sad; Now I Feel Guilty

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

The Dr. John Delony Show is a caller-driven show that offers real people a chance to be heard as they struggle with relationship issues and mental health challenges. John will give you practical advic...e on how to connect with people, how to take the next right step when you feel frozen, and how to cut through the depression and anxiety that can feel so overwhelming. You are not alone in this battle. You are worth being well—and it starts by focusing on what you can control. Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show. We want to talk to YOU!   Show Notes for this Episode My husband just passed away & I want to know how to raise my son to be a good man My dad almost died & I didn't feel sad about it Lyrics of the Day: "The Rose" - Bette Midler   As heard on this episode:  BetterHelp dreamcloudsleep.com/delony Conversation Starters Redefining Anxiety John's Free Guided Meditation Ramsey+   tags: parenting, kids, substance abuse, grief, family   These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately.

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 On today's show, we talk to three remarkable women. One is struggling with her marriage and with parenting. One is struggling with the passing of her husband just a few weeks ago. And one is struggling with not feeling like she grieved enough during her dad's recent health scare. Stay tuned. Hey, what's up? What's up? Welcome to Dr. John Deloney's show. I'm laughing because Kelly's looking at me as though I'm a child that she's very disappointed in. What did I do? It's so not you. I don't feel good. It's not you.
Starting point is 00:00:45 I would not have known that you didn't feel good. You were on time, professional, kicking butt, brilliant as always. I won't make any comments about your appearance. It's like you're just here ready to rock and roll. I would say you're beautiful, but the internet gets mad. Like, you shouldn't tell her that. So whatever. Parched in a pear tree.
Starting point is 00:01:00 I'm sorry you feel bad. That's okay. Thank you. On the last show, you had a full beard and you had a way deeper voice that was actually a different person named Austin he had a hat on so I couldn't tell
Starting point is 00:01:13 he was wonderful enough to step in so that I could stay home we did try to get him to answer the phones like hello this is Kelly but he's too respectful and he wouldn't do it I thought that would be super funny people would not expect that. But I'm glad to see you back. Sorry you don't feel good.
Starting point is 00:01:29 Oh, that's okay. Thank you. I'm glad to be back. Are you taking all your vitamins? Yes. I don't even know if you take vitamins. I'm just saying that. I'm on a lot of drugs right now. So, I'm in a steak well type stuff. Yes. You should call into the show. We talk about those kind of things. James, feeling it?
Starting point is 00:01:46 Feeling great. Good folks, when James says, and I quote, I'm feeling great, that's him being sarcastic. I'm not being sarcastic. No? No. You look full of joy today. I really am doing great. Is it the denim?
Starting point is 00:02:01 Yeah, it's the denim. I think so. Whenever you wear denim, there's like a radiance about you. It's the bright colors. The blue just, yeah, it's good. All right, hey, let's go straight to the phones. I don't have anything else to talk about today. Actually, let's read one poem, and then we'll go.
Starting point is 00:02:15 Let's see here. Here's another poem. Oh, man. All these poems mention y'all. This show's about me. And all these poems mention you guys. Here's the greatest poem of all time. Oh, I think I've already done this one.
Starting point is 00:02:35 From Heidi, I've already done this one. I put it back in the stack. I'll do it anyway. You need a screener for your mail. I disagree. Yeah, we have had some. Man. This is from heidi in minnesota james is super red kelly carries herself with poise strongly disagree the dr john deloney show
Starting point is 00:02:57 is my favorite forever a fan of the horse noise you did read that one. I did? Yeah, you did. Oh, well, there we go. But, you know, it's worth reading again. It's so accurate. Was it? It was, Heidi. Thank you. We're doubling up here. All right, here we go. I have a poem for you.
Starting point is 00:03:20 Here we go. Thank you for your words and wit and wisdom and whimsy. Thank you for your words and wit and wisdom and whimsy. Thank you for your alliteration. Okay, here we go. It's my joy to surprise you with delight. That's not a poem. What is happening?
Starting point is 00:03:44 Before we do this next time, Kelly and I are going to go through them so that there's some semblance of order. Hi. If this is your first time to the show, this is how it always is. I don't really know what's happening here. And I read mail, and then I stop in the middle of it because there's some people who are struggling with assignments. Read the syllabus. It's always those students. Here's the deal. It's not as if all the mail you receive are poems.
Starting point is 00:04:04 These are just feedback letters. There's things that may be from the Ramsey show, so it's not like they all the mail you receive are poems like these are just feedback letters there's things that may be from the ramsey show so it's not like they're all going to be poems that's why we need to screen them i agree you're right great if you had someone that you know screened things and did that oh i see what you did there it'd be cool if she came to work that was a sick joke sorry too soon too soon. Too soon. I have something to say, but I'm not. Because your kids listen. All right, let's go to Paula in Columbia. Hey, Paula, what's going on? Hey, Dr. John, how are you? I'm good. And you? I'm all right. Uh-oh, that doesn't sound good what's going on um my husband died three weeks ago after an eight month battle with cancer paula paula i'm so sorry three weeks ago um tell me about him yeah um he was awesome the happiest person you've met um kind wonderful had great life and has done
Starting point is 00:05:12 a bunch of wonderful things in his life um and was just at a point in his life where he was sharing those other people teaching them things he knew. Throughout his cancer treatments, he went into every one of them with a smile on his face. He was everyone's favorite patient. His goals were to eat, sleep, drink, and, you know, take cancer. And mine were to find all the best treatments and read all the medical journals and he never once gave up he was amazing and three weeks ago it caught him huh it did um can i just tell you i'm so sorry. Thank you. I hate that for you.
Starting point is 00:06:05 I can tell in your voice that you love, love that guy. And you won the husband lottery with that one. What was his name? You know, I got a card that said that. I'd sent it to a friend, you know, when we were early on kind of getting that thing people do about talking about their husbands, things they do. And I said, you know what? I got a good one. There really wasn't anything to complain about. And that was the coolest card to get. Hey, I got a good one. Like it's like a whispering secret.
Starting point is 00:06:33 Guess what guys? I found a hundred dollars under my house. Yeah. I got a really good one. Even after 13 years. What was his name? His name was David. David. I want to make sure we say his name out loud and honor him. That's awesome. We actually, so we have a son. Okay. How old? Five.
Starting point is 00:06:51 Five, okay. Five. And we say his name every day, and we sing to him, and we talk about him, and we have pictures. Charles Conner put pictures on our house, you know, in little areas in our house. And we've, he brought his dad to show and tell last week, cause he had to pick a word that began with D and D is for dad. So he's doing awesome now. Um, and at the beginning of the journey, the first three months, we didn't tell him anything, but we found great resources and we are able to bring him on the journey with us. He met nurses and ate at the hospital cafeteria and he just, he knew his dad was sick, but
Starting point is 00:07:30 it helped him with compassion and empathy. And he is the coolest kid. And part of that was because he had the coolest dad. So. And I know where you're going with this. So before you even say it, I'm going to tell you. And he had the coolest mom too. Yes.
Starting point is 00:07:54 He did. He does. He's got a mom who loves him and a mom who shows up. And a mom who loved his dad too. And that's magic. I was more the operational parent, though. No, you're putting... Listen, I'm the fun dad.
Starting point is 00:08:09 And you know what wouldn't happen? Is we'd have no electricity in my house or food. We'd have a really cool fire outside. And we'd write our names in the yard with a lawnmower. But we'd have no food, right? So, it takes both. And they, your son, one with you, too. Herein lies the problem. How do I navigate the upcoming years so that this awesome kid can grow into an awesome man without his dad around?
Starting point is 00:08:40 Yeah. We have a huge community and great men in it, and there are men in his labs, but there's not that fun in the house and around him constantly. What a great, hard, heartbreaking question. And thank you for trusting me with that. I know it's even hard to say out loud, but every time you have to say those words without dad, the whole thing just pulls that scab off again. So here's the thing. I'll answer your question, but I'm going to answer it with a caveat, okay?
Starting point is 00:09:17 Okay. This is a next year question. Okay. You're three weeks out. And as a planner and as a controller and as somebody who loves people who are lots of fun, but you
Starting point is 00:09:33 were put on this earth to make sure they don't all drive off the cliff together, you are doing your best to tie up every loose end. Right? And to control what you can control because a grenade just went off in your heart.
Starting point is 00:09:50 And in your home. And try not to control as much. I know, I know, I know. I know. And bills gotta get paid, right? Life insurance has to, I mean, all that stuff has to happen. And there's still gonna be a roof leak and things like that.
Starting point is 00:10:05 But, you're worrying on a 20-year challenge right now, and there is still smoke coming out of that house. And so for the next three months, the next six months, the greatest gift you can give your son is that you be honest about your grief and you cry with him. And when you're sad and you're lonely, you hug him. But also you don't make him responsible for your wellness and your healing. And that mom takes care of mom. And that doesn't mean faking it or flexing or that means you got someone to talk to. You got people to cry you've got people you can call when you need to be away from your son and you just need to go for a walk in the woods with a buddy like you know what i mean it sounds like you have a great community that's the
Starting point is 00:10:54 gift you can give him okay um downstream you're right little boys need models of men. They do. And teaching integrity, honesty, grit, kindness, and strength,
Starting point is 00:11:15 those are not gender specific things. He'll be fun because he's fun. He'll be bonkers because he's bonkers. You can still teach him what strength looks like, even if it's a different kind of strength than the one maybe dad would have shown him. And by the way, when you tell stories of dad, they will become almost more powerful than him.
Starting point is 00:11:42 So stories of dad's strength and dad's character and dad's integrity will take root in his heart. As will watching you be a person of integrity and strength and character. And you calling those things out explicitly. And so I don't want you to think
Starting point is 00:12:00 your son is gonna struggle because dad passed away. That's a trauma. You know that, right? That's a great tragedy. He's going to struggle. He's going to have challenges. And when I say struggle or challenges,
Starting point is 00:12:13 I don't mean like, ah, it's all good. Not like that. But his life's going to be harder than mine was because my dad's still here. Okay? And he had an incredible father. I don't want to mince that.
Starting point is 00:12:28 And he is going to be incredibly blessed by you and so i don't want you to think that suddenly there's these things that you can't teach him that's not true he will need male models he'll need men in his life that will take him out i said that kind of weird i just just want to say, I should have said, he needs male models. I made that whole thing weird. He'll need models of men in his life, right? That will take him fishing and take him hunting or take him to do computer. I don't know what he's into, but whatever he's into. That will be important.
Starting point is 00:12:55 And those guys will come. That's for later. That's for later. The important thing right now is to sit and just be still and grieve. And I'm so sorry. So sorry. The sitting part is hard. It is.
Starting point is 00:13:22 It is. But what I'm going to tell you is you can't run from this. And as a controller, you're used to running from it. Because that's what control gives us. Are you set up financially? Are you all okay there? We became 100% debt-free a month before he passed away. Wow.
Starting point is 00:13:54 It was a challenge. And, you know, there's always a person who's going home and there's somebody who's not. And so David begrudgingly followed me the entire time, but we did it together. And being able to look back and say that we did it together is way cooler than after the fact. Absolutely. We're okay. I have an amazing
Starting point is 00:14:28 boss, an amazing CEO, an amazing company. Awesome. Good for you. Good for them. Awesome. We're good. It's just there's just a lot. And you're not good.
Starting point is 00:14:44 You lost your best friend. Yeah. And it's okay to not be good. It's okay to not be good. It's okay to not be strong. It's okay to not be in control. Thank you. thank you the world doesn't need any more strong sprinters right Dave always says
Starting point is 00:15:17 he reads the tortoise and the hare every year and the tortoise wins every time your little boy Paula The tortoise and the hare every year and the tortoise wins every time. Your little boy, Paula, is really lucky to have you. Real lucky to have you. He's really lucky to have the community he's in and he's really lucky to have spent five magical years with a magical, incredible dad. You are correct. And so sit in the memory and the love of your husband.
Starting point is 00:15:54 Sit in the pain and the hurt of you lost your best friend and co-pilot, your forever guy. Sit in the grief that your son lost his dad. Sit in the joy that your son lost his dad, sit in the joy that, man, he got to spend five years with somebody who was just magic, and then be about the slow, slow process of healing. Don't hide your grieving from your son. Don't bury him with it either. Put people in your life that will call you out
Starting point is 00:16:27 on making sure you're eating, making sure you're walking, making sure you're going to work, making sure your son's got somewhere to go on the weekends and go play and be around people his own age. Make sure he's got a counselor
Starting point is 00:16:39 that will walk with him. That'll be different than you, more than likely. And recognize this, this isn't a sprint. This isn't something you can wrap your arms around. You can't control grief.
Starting point is 00:16:52 You can't wrap it up and hold it really tight. It'll pull you underwater. You have to breathe through it. It's so hard. And I'm so, so sorry. And by the way, there's no rules to grief grief it'll hit you at weird times and weird moments there's no expectations you have to grieve like this
Starting point is 00:17:11 and this way and this amount of time people are going to try to shape your grief to make them comfortable they don't get that your story is your story and your sons is your sons and y'all are in this together and what an extraordinary testament to the world your husband who fought valiantly who smiled all
Starting point is 00:17:33 the way to the end and who handed that baton of being free financially to you he just made it what an incredible testament so david we salute you brother and we all hope to see you sometime and high five you man thanks for being a husband who loved his wife and loved his kid thanks for the call paula thank you so much we'll be right back on the dr john deloney show this show is sponsored by better help all right, October is the season for wearing costumes and masks. And if you haven't started planning your costume yet, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going as Brad Pitt in Fight Club era
Starting point is 00:18:12 because, I mean, we pretty much have the same upper body, but whatever. All right, look, it's costume season. And let's be honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind costumes and masks more often than we want to. We do this at work, We do this in social setting. We do this around our families.
Starting point is 00:18:27 We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can learn to be honest with yourself
Starting point is 00:18:42 and you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic, direct life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy and you can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for your schedule. You just fill out a short online survey and you get matched with a licensed therapist. Plus, you can switch therapists at any time
Starting point is 00:19:11 for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. All right, we're back. Let's take one more call.
Starting point is 00:19:28 Let's go to Alex in Portland, Oregon. What's up, Alex? Hi, John. How are you? I'm outstanding. How about you? Not too bad. Not too bad.
Starting point is 00:19:39 The undersell of the year. What's up? Yeah, I got an interesting question. Nobody calls my show because when things aren't too bad, nobody does. Right, yeah. We just want to say hi. Just want to say what's up. What's up, Alex?
Starting point is 00:19:56 How's it going? My dad recently, just a couple weeks back, had a heart attack and he almost died. And I feel guilty for not feeling bad about it. I'll get to the meat of everything you want to know. My main question is, is this normal? And if it's not, what do I do about it?
Starting point is 00:20:17 If it is, how do I deal with the guilt of not feeling bad? So when you say you didn't feel bad, what does that mean? Tell me about that. I just, I don't feel the sadness that I would expect to. My parents have been married for 48 years. The thought of losing my mom makes me sick to my stomach. My dad, almost
Starting point is 00:20:37 indifferent. And I didn't have a great relationship with him, but he was never a bad dad. I didn't have that great relationship with him, but he was never a bad cat. I didn't have that connection. Okay. So paint me a picture in like a sentence or two. What did you expect yourself to do or to feel or to experience
Starting point is 00:21:00 in the hypothetical event your dad almost dies? I guess I thought I would have this overwhelming sense of grief, like I lost something that meant so incredibly much to me, just like I would with my mom, and that would just break my heart. But yet with him, I just, I don't know, I felt sadness, but the sadness was for my mom, for yet with him, I just, I don't know, like I felt sadness, but the sadness was for my mom for almost losing him, you know? So it just, I don't know, it just, it hit me weird. And like, I realized when she called me and told me that she, you know, I could hear it in her voice. She was just distraught. That's what hurt me. So I don't know, once I like started thinking about it, I realized that's what my sadness was. It was for her. And I don't know, I've seen him since and you know, he's doing
Starting point is 00:21:52 fine. He's, he had really high cholesterol and one of his arteries was almost completely blocked and he's being incredibly stubborn and he's saying, well, it took 67 years for that artery to block. So now I have another 67 years. He's just being like so cavalier about it. And when he was in the hospital, um, he wanted no attention. Like he didn't want anyone to know. And it was, you know, oh, don't, don't tell anybody. And now that he's out, he loves all the attention he's getting. And he wants to talk about every little detail. And it's just, it's a lot for me like i just i can't you know here's my guess here's my guess alex this isn't just about the heart attack he's been this way for your whole life is that fair yeah yeah and it's exhausting and annoying and it is okay for whatever it's worth
Starting point is 00:22:46 and I'll tell you it's not very much it is okay to not like your dad you can love somebody and not like them you can love somebody and respect them and not want to hang out with them here's a couple
Starting point is 00:23:02 of things I've learned working in grief for forever now and trauma and tragedy we have these Hollywood pictures of what happens there's even a lot of research on juries and when people respond they find their husband has passed away
Starting point is 00:23:18 or their kid has passed away and they don't respond in a Hollywoodized way they're often looked at as a suspect or why did you call this person what I will tell you and they don't respond in a Hollywoodized way, they're often looked at as a suspect. Or why did you call this person? What I will tell you is that whatever picture you have of how you think you're going to respond, you have no idea. None.
Starting point is 00:23:37 Most people, most of the time, don't scream and yell and weep and fall down on the floor. They go stone numb. They freeze. And they will report things like, I can't feel anything. I can't. I am just. And that's just their body shutting down.
Starting point is 00:23:59 And that's totally normal and okay. Here's what I want to give you to carry you on in the next however many years. You're going to have your dad with you, your mom with you, and just as you learn to learn about Alex more. Be curious with your responses, not judgmental of them.
Starting point is 00:24:20 Okay. So when you have an anticipated response and you don't respond that way instead of going oh my gosh i'm broken or i suck or it's because my dad's just be curious about it like why in the world it helps me to write that stuff down when i have those different responses um some people can talk it out with their friends or with someone they trust but just be curious about it. So let's be curious. Why do you think, why do you think that you were indifferent? And it's okay to say, I don't like him. I have never liked him. Yeah. He hurt me growing up. Um, I think,
Starting point is 00:24:58 I think it's because I've seen a lot for for an example, probably about two months ago, my mom had COVID and shingles at the same time. And she was almost literally on her deathbed. There was one day, though, that she thought, yeah, I'm done. This is it. And she, I don't, I'm married. I don't live at home. And I knew they were going through this and I knew she was also a little stubborn and didn't want to go to the hospital. So I had texted my dad
Starting point is 00:25:30 and I said, Hey, you know, if she's refusing to go to the hospital and you won't fuck up and take her, I'm going to call the police and I'm going to have a forced welfare check on her because I don't want her to die because she's being stubborn. Right? And he just said, okay, thanks for your concern, you know, well, she's doing okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I then find out when she asked him to call for an ambulance for her on that day that she thought this was it, he said, oh, are you sure? I mean, you know, they're going to show up and you're going to be really embarrassed. And, you know, like he just, he kind of, he cares so much about appearances, not the severity of the situation. And then on top of that, I find out that when I said that to him, that I'm going to call the police and have a forced check on her, he laughed. He thought that was funny.
Starting point is 00:26:22 And I'm just like, who does that? You know? I just, it makes me sick. Because it's like, you don't take things seriously, and then you want all the attention and love in the world when it's about you. Yeah. So it just, I just, I'm disgusted. Really. And so here's what I want to tell you, Alex.
Starting point is 00:26:42 It's okay to be disgusted. Yeah. Anger points us to things that we care about. Yeah. And that's what it is. It was anger and, you know, all that for how he treated my mom in that situation, how I've seen him treat her, you know, my whole life growing up. And, and, and how he treated you. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:27:01 How he treated you. You were the recipient of this as well. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be frustrated. In a perfect world, you let him know these things while he's still alive. I've also seen it time and time again that people pass away and that initial wave of anger and disgust and frustration and all that passes. And then there's this longing, almost for a myth, for a fantasy of I miss my dad.
Starting point is 00:27:32 Right. I miss my dad. And letting him know, hey, I almost, we almost lost you. And you're cavalier about it. Here's somebody who's not cavalier about you, me. And I love you. And I don who's not cavalier about you, me. And I love you. And I don't like your cavalier attitude. It breaks my heart
Starting point is 00:27:50 that you're cavalier about mom's health, about your health. But your dad, you're 60, 70 years old, you can do whatever you want. I'll tell you, it breaks my heart. And it's hard to love you. I do. It's hard to love you, though. And then, when it comes back to the response,
Starting point is 00:28:06 your response doesn't, I mean, you don't need to be curious about it. You know why. You don't like the man. He almost killed your mom in your heart and mind. He almost killed your mom. He's been like this his whole life. You're just done with him.
Starting point is 00:28:19 It's cool. You're allowed to be done with him. And I'm gonna tell you down the road, this is gonna come back and it's gonna hurt. And I'm going to tell you down the road, this is going to come back. It's going to hurt. And so whatever you can process and deal with now and let go of, here's something I think that you're carrying around that would probably be great for your soul. And you should forgive your dad and put that brick down.
Starting point is 00:28:41 Stop carrying it. I think you've been carrying your old man for a long, long, long time. And he's obviously doesn't have the tools and some equipment and he's got some challenges that he's worked through and he's not going to change. And so at the end of the day, you're carrying around the stuff that's not going to make any difference to him. So I'd set it down and you can set it down by writing him that letter, by calling him and looking him in the eye, by saying what you need to say or saying nothing
Starting point is 00:29:08 and just saying, I'm putting that down. I love my dad and he's drawn his boundaries and so I'm going to draw mine. But that's hard, man. That's hard, hard, hard, hard, hard. In the last year, last two years, I've heard more stories of people coming to terms with their parents and who they are and their mortality or their idiocracy or whatever it happens to be.
Starting point is 00:29:33 I'm sorry. But to answer your original question, you're not broken, Alex. You're not evil. You're not mean. It's okay to not like your dad, especially if he's abusive, especially if he was ugly to your mom, especially fill in the blank. I always want people to be respectful and treat their parents with dignity. And it's always okay to just sit down and say, I miss my dad.
Starting point is 00:29:52 Where were you? That's okay too. Thank you so much for that call, Alex. Whew, it was a heavy one today, man. So as we wrap up, James has been hassling me and hassling me. And I don't say that lightly lightly james because you're not a hassler you have been beating me up about do my favorite song do my favorite song do my favorite
Starting point is 00:30:11 song do my favorite song here it is america here it is jeez james this is like not even go with the show but james is like i'm the producer i get whatever song i want like fine this is called gaslighting, guys. This is what gaslighting is. I don't even know what that means. I do know what that means, but it's from the Rose soundtrack. From James' best singer
Starting point is 00:30:36 of all time, Bette Midler, The Rose. And it goes like this. This is for you, James Childs. Some say love it is a river that drowns the tender reed. Some say love, it is a razor that leaves your soul to bleed. Ooh, James. This actually sounds like a My Chemical Romance song.
Starting point is 00:30:57 Some say love, it's a hunger, an endless aching need. I say love is a flower. In you, it's only seed. It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance. It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance. It's the one who won't be taken, who cannot seem to give, and the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live. Far beneath the bitter snow, James, lies the seed that with the sun's love in the spring becomes the rose. It's for you, Jimmy Childs.
Starting point is 00:31:29 I've never heard that, but she's the original emo artist, apparently. James Childs and his love for the rose right here on The Dr. John Deloney Show.

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