The Dr. John Delony Show - My Husband Is Second Guessing Our Marriage

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

On today’s show, we hear about: - A woman whose husband is second-guessing their marriage - A woman questioning whether she’s a good person - A mom wanting to protect her daughter from being bullied To pre-order John's new book Building a Non-Anxious Life click here. Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Hallow Thorne Add products to your cart create an account at checkout Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: Anxiety Test Own Your Past, Change Your Future Questions for Humans Conversation Cards Redefining Anxiety Quick Read John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. He said basically he doesn't miss home, loves the freedom, and realizes that he's really been watering himself down and conforming into our routine. Which I get, you know, we have three kids, it's hectic. Yeah, but it's his routine too. I mean, that... Ugh. 13-2. I mean that... What is going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I mean, literally the greatest mental health and marriage and parenting podcast and pet care podcast and roadway cleaning podcast that has ever existed. And I'm just going to keep adding things because we're making this whole thing up. Anyway, I'm so glad that you're with us talking about your

marriage, what's going on in your heart, in your mind, in your head, in your family, whatever you got going on. I'm here for it. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291, or go to johndeloney.com slash ask a S K. Um, if you've got some success stories, please continue to send those in. Um, Jenna and Kelly are getting them and they're amazing. And for those of you who write me letters, it's just truly, um, such an honor and a gift. And I'm, I'm grateful for you. Thank you so, so much for doing that. Um, and don't forget building a non anxious life still up for presale. If you're on, Building a Non-Anxious Life, still up for pre-sale. If you're on the fence about it,

it's 20 bucks. You're going to spend that much on coffee this week. And if you're like, no, I'm not. Yeah, you are. So just take a week off and pick up this book.

And I'm confident it's a game changer for folks. Go to johndeloney.com and check it out. Let's run out to one of my favorite places on planet Earth, New Orleans, Louisiana, and talk to dear Marie. What's run out to one of my favorite places on planet earth, New Orleans, Louisiana,

and talk to dear Marie. What's up, Marie? Hey, Dr. John, how are you? Partying. What are you up to? Nothing, just hanging in there. Excellent. What's up? How can I help? Yeah, so I have a question, and I'm just going to give you a quick little rundown. So my husband and I recently celebrated our two-year anniversary and we knew that he had a work trip coming up for about five weeks. So anyway, he's been on that trip for two weeks. The first week, communication just was not there, not really talking to me. And I told him how important hearing from him was, especially while I'm at home with the kids. And so finally we talked almost at that week mark, and he has just come to this realization that life is so good, you know, just not having any anxiety, any worries, and just all of these doubts in his head now about our relationship

and our marriage. And I'm just, I'm not sure how to move forward with it and what else to do on my end. Okay, let me see if I can piece some of this together. So y'all have been together for two years and you've got multiple kids. Are those from another relationship? Yes. Okay. And how old are your kids? So we have a four-year-old, which he's been in her life since before she was one, and then an eight-year-old and a 13-year-old. Okay. All right. And so y'all

got married and how old are you and how old is he? I am 31. He's 33. Okay. So y'all get married. He goes on a trip and that peace and quiet. I've got two kids and when I travel, my wife travels, I'm flying out tonight. So I'll fly out

and there will be about 12 hours when it's incredible. And it's so quiet and I can make snow angels on the bed and there will be about 12 hours when it's incredible. And it's so quiet, and I can make snow angels on the bed, and there's nobody like, hey, dad, hey, dad, hey, dad, can I have a snack, can I have a snack? None of that exists for 12 hours. It's awesome.

And then by about hour 13, I hate my life. I can't wait to get back. And sometimes that's 24 hours, 48 hours. My wife can go two or three days, but she wears more of it during the week, right? So what you're saying is he went away and didn't call you, didn't talk to you, didn't reach out. Yeah. Yeah, no. And I was just, you know, I'm at home with, so we have my two kids full time. And I'm at home with them, you know, the little one wanting to talk to daddy.

And, you know, no calls, nothing. And I'm at home with them, the little ones wanting to talk to daddy and no calls, nothing. And I'm missing him. I'm like, I miss my husband. I miss him around here. I miss having that adult interaction. And he just, he didn't want to take that time to call. He's got buddies. I get it. Enjoy your time while you're out there. But I'm like, hey, don't forget that we're here. And so finally, I was like, hey, we haven't talked in a week. Can we talk? And on that phone call, he said basically he doesn't miss home, that he just loves the freedom and realizes that he's really been watering himself down and conforming into our routine, which I get, you know, we have three kids. It's hectic. It's crazy. We've got schedules.

Yeah, but it's his routine too. I mean, yeah. Okay. First, I'm just going to be as honest as possible to you. And I'm going to tell you, there's not really a roadmap here. Like in the scientific literature, I'm just going to tell you what I would do. Okay. Um, I would be stunned and I you what I would do. Okay. Um, I

would be stunned and I've been stunned before on the show. I've been wrong often on the show before. I would be very surprised if there's not somebody else. Well, you know, since you mentioned that, um, you know, it's crazy how God works, like always. So I'm on Instagram, just scroll in looking and a picture came up and I was like, oh, you know, oh, cool. It's him like at a work function. So I clicked on it to look and it was posted by a female. And I guess because he liked the picture, it had popped up on a suggested, I don't even know. But I looked at it and I found out that, you know, the times that he did talk to me and tell me he was going to eat with the guys, that they hadn't hung out with any girls, that that had been false.

And there was this one particular girl he had been hanging out with on a regular occasion, just, you know, leaving it out. And when I- Hold on, hold on. It's not just leaving it out. Like he's lying to your face, right? Yeah. And I told him that I was like, Hey, like, I don't understand how you can feel comfortable, like lying to the person you're married with. Like, that's a big deal to me. And it makes me feel extremely insecure, like knowing that you're

lying. And basically he said that he did not want to get lectured or questioned and he's old enough. He knows how to handle himself. Here's no, here's what I think's happening. Here's what I think's happening. I think he is with somebody right now. And what he's doing, because he's a coward and a child, is he's going to make this disintegration of your relationship your fault. I don't like conforming. You're squashing me.

You're judging me. You're leaning on me. You're doing these things to me. And look what happened. I just had to go fill in the blank. I had to go for a week and not talk to you. So this is, um, I'm going to give you like some secret guy code stuff that you're not supposed to know. Cause you're not in the gang. Right. But I'm gonna tell you if I go like on a guy's trip, we all go to Vegas. We all go watch the fights. We all go do a thing, right?

We all go on a hunting trip or a fishing trip, whatever. There is always, always a moment when everybody splits up and calls home. Always. Yeah.

I can't wrap my head. I can't think. I'm trying to think. I can't think of a time in the last 20 years that that hasn't happened. And if it doesn't, it's a very clear like, hey, I'm going to be in the woods tomorrow and I won't be able to call out a love you. And as soon as I get signal, I'll reach out. But like, so this idea like I was with the bros and we all forgot. That's stupid.

Because even all i guarantee you some of those guys broke out and said hey i gotta go call home and it's it's not uncommon for everyone to be like i gotta go call home but most of the time guys can't wait to call home and check in yeah right and so you're not crazy yeah and. And this, I'm just going to talk to you for a week, is madness. That's nuts. It's just nuts. And it's a very cowardly exchange. So I'm going to tell you what I would do.

And this is a terrible recommendation. And so I can't recommend it to you. What I'm telling you is this is what I would do. If my wife was gone and she was going on a trip. How long is this work trip by the way? It's almost five weeks. And so we're like, he is,

it's military training. Well, that kind of changes things. Is there a possibility he doesn't have access to his phone? No, he does. He does. He's just made it clear that like, he's really enjoying his, you know, life. And I get it. The first two years of our marriage had

been, you know, it's been hard. We've been having to figure out how we can blend our families together. We're figuring out communication, which has been, you know, a really hard spot for us. Yeah. But you don't quit. You don't quit. Yeah, no. And, you know, for the last two weeks, I've been reminding him that I'm like, hey, I'm here for you. I love you. I'm, you know, I want to work on things.

I want to fix things because he didn't say anything about this before he left. He's like, oh, our relationship is great. No, it's because he's a coward. What does he tell you? What does he tell you when you say I love you and I want to work on this? He just says because he's a coward. What does he tell you when you say, I love you and I want to work on this? He just says that he's enjoying himself and that he has to see what the vibes are like when he gets home.

Dude, you're not still trying out. This isn't a tryout. I know. It makes me feel crazy because I'm like, am I crazy for my husband? No, you're not crazy on any part of this. It's the person I don't know. And if he was to come in and say, or before he left, listen, the last two years have wrecked me in a way I didn't anticipate. And I need a couple of weeks of no communication because I got some hard things to sort out in my mind.

Yeah. And that would be a truly devastating conversation to have in person. And it's basically like a, we're going to take a quick, like a quick two week, three week separation. We're gonna take a quick two or three, like this, me going away for five weeks is bigger than just, um, we're going to be apart. Like I, I've got to get my head screwed on straight and i got to figure out if this is what i want for the rest of my life and like if that was a friend of mine i would

challenge the premise of that just because it doesn't align with my personal values but that's the respectable way to do something like that right it's not just a ghost, your wife. So no, you're not crazy at all. I would get in a car or I would fly out and I would meet that person directly. Yeah. And I don't know if that's possible on a military base. I don't know if there's evening release. I don't know any of the details around that, but I would have to know. You're not going to just not talk. You're not going to just ghost me. If you are leaving me, we're going to have this conversation now because you mean that much to me and my marriage means that much to me. I also know this, that is not a safe situation for

everybody. It's not a smart situation for most. And I can't recommend it what I'm saying is it would mean that much to me that everything in my life stops right this second right now and that becomes number one priority yeah and I you know I felt I felt that way you know I thought about it but I'm, just the responses that I'm getting from him. Like, I, I think he might be upset, you know, if I went over there and it's, so I've been, I've been trying to give him his space. Yeah. Hold on.

Hold on. Why do you think so little of you, Marie? Like, I don't want him to be upset. How, how's his wife supposed to feel? She's getting left via text message. Like, I mean, and he's just going to check out the vibes when he gets back? I mean, come on. Yeah.

You deserve more. No, no, no. It's a different person. You deserve more than this. Yeah. And the way you're interacting, the way you're talking, the way. And as I say, I'm almost, I'd be willing. I just, I'm fairly certain there's somebody else involved.

And if there is, he needs to have the courage to sit down face to face with you and say, I've fallen for somebody else, or I am cheating on you right now. Or I got married, I met somebody else, and I haven't been totally honest with you. And I know that I've broken your heart and devastated you and the lives of these kids. But this is our reality right now. That is the noble way to handle a very unnoble situation. I don't even think unnoble is a word, but that's how you do that. And he's not, and he's leaving you, the wife dangling on the end of this line, wondering what you did. And I hate it for you. I'm sorry. You're not crazy. Well, you have to ask yourself, here's the metric.

You have to ask yourself, what does this relationship mean to you? What does the marriage mean to you? What does this person mean to you? And you got to own reality too. If you think this person's, if he's been lying to you forever and gets mad at you for calling him on it, if you think he's been cheating on you and gets mad at you, you don't get to be my parent. I'm your wife. And you start to go, oh, oh, oh. And you start to like, almost like watching the sixth sense. And they, they replayed those, those key scenes. And you're go, oh, oh, oh. And you start to like, almost like watching the sixth sense and they replay those key scenes and you're like, oh, I missed it. If that's you right now,

then you've got some harder conversations to have, some direct conversations. But here's the bigger picture. I want you to take your autonomy and power back in this relationship because it's 100% one-sided as though he's been doing you a favor by checking out the vibe.

And you're passing the vibe test, so he hangs. And then once he's out, he's like, I don't like the vibes. We're going to chill here. As though you're like a surfing spot. You deserve more. You deserve more. And if he wants to call the show, I'd love to talk to him, man. I'd love to talk to him.

It's frustrating to hear this side of it. Man. This is the John Delaney Show. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October is the season for wearing costumes. And if you haven't started planning your costume, seriously, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go as Brad Pitt because we have the same upper body, but whatever. Look, it's costume season. And if we're being

honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind masks and costumes more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social settings. We do this around our own families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self behind costumes and masks, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can be honest with yourself and where you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your

therapist anywhere so it's convenient for just about any schedule. You just get online and you fill out a short survey and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. All right, we're back. Let's go out to Jen in Omaha, Nebraska. What's up, Jen? Oh, my gosh, Dr. John.

I cannot believe I'm talking to you. You know, I was just thinking, I cannot believe I'm talking to Jen from Omaha. Hey, what is like, what's like the thing to do in Omaha? Well. Like I know Bright Eyes is from there, like a songwriter that I love. But other than that, I don't know anything about Omaha. What's like the thing to do in Omaha?

Well, the College World Series is always pretty popular. That is, I need to go to that. That's on my bucket list. And steaks, Omaha steaks are from there. Yes. Awesome. They're list. And steaks. Omaha steaks are from there. Yes. Awesome. They're delicious. They're delicious.

Anyone that doesn't understand Nebraska, it really is beautiful. You just got to get off the interstate. Oh, it's stunning. I've been there. Yeah, it's these beautiful hills that just go on for eternity. It's incredible. Yeah. I love it.

I love it. All right. So what's up? How can I help? I want a geography podcast so bad, but they won't let me love it. All right. So what's up? How can I help? I want a geography podcast so bad, but they won't let me have one. All right. So what's up? So I have just been battling with this question for quite a while, and I just can't seem to find an answer.

But my question is, how do you find your identity again after being a cheater? Tell me more. So I don't even know where to start, honestly. So my husband and I, we've been together, together 10 years, married for four. And, um, we always kind of had little issues in our relationship prior to being engaged and married. And my best like description of that was the red flags never caused me to raise the white flag. So we just kind of moved through it and, you know, took everything in stride. And then, um, we went through

like a really stressful time in our life. We were, we were engaged planning our wedding. We decided to both go back to school because we wanted to further our careers. That was during COVID. And after we got married, I got pregnant. So we were, and I was working in healthcare. It was just a whole lot of stress all in one. And when we came out on the other side, I had a different career at a different place and I got out of healthcare. And I met a guy through my new career and I got out of healthcare and I met a guy through my new career and I connected with him on an emotional level that stepped outside the boundaries of my um we just separated and you know it's just a lot you you and your husband are you and him okay no um this me and my husband just separated okay um did you sleep with this guy no okay so met somebody who had a crush on him after a particularly chaotic time. You violated your own conscience here, right?

Absolutely. There had to be more of a reason why y'all separated. Well, that was mostly from things that were going on in our own relationship but a lot of it i think he really blames the cheating but i have i mean we've we've been in therapy for like over a year now and um, um, I've, I've even listened to parts of your podcast that, you know, kind of give, um, direction or maybe some guidance as to like how we could work through these things. And I feel like we were, I don't know if I should say we, but I feel like I kind of tried to reconcile what had gone on and he didn't want to. And he told me that.

And then I bowed out and now he wants to wonder why we're separating. That's right. So I just feel like I can't ever, you know, like I held myself to such a standard in my life that I was a, I'm a good person and I have morals and I have values and standards. No, I think what you did was I think you tethered your values to a series of things you won't do. And if we tether our values to a series of things I don't do, I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't have sex. I don't ever have a crush or fall deeply for somebody that I'm not married to. I don't sleep with somebody I'm not married to. Fill in the blank.

I don't steal. If you anchor your values into a series of actions you don't take and you stumble into or walk into or do one of those actions, your entire identity, your entire picture of yourself burns to the ground. And so you anchored into not, I'm somebody who is always growing. I'm somebody, I want to be the best wife possible. Then you have an emotional affair with somebody and you sit down and have a hard conversation and you weep and you grieve and you mourn what was and you'll build something new. And then you continue to try to be the best wife you can be. Because you weren't in that moment.

It wasn't a, or in that season, it was not a, it's not a picture that is stamped into concrete. This is who you are. It was a bad, bad season. But when you anchor into, I will not do this thing, and then you do that thing there's nowhere to go and just for what it's worth working through this i think is um one thousand percent possible you nailed it and i think that's what you're struggling with he doesn't want to i think it was a lot of the other stuff that went on in our relationship that I just could not get my – like I could not wrap my head around doing those things or being that person. Tell me about it. Which ones?

Tell me. Let's don't be vague. Let's be real direct. Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. For somebody to call – like the way you asked the question, let's just start here and just get all the cards out on the table, face up. Like, how do I find my identity after being a cheater? The way you asked that,

I thought you were going to tell me that you cheated on a high school boyfriend, you cheated on three college boyfriends, and you've slept with three or four guys since you've been married. This is, if I'm not wrong, you met somebody, you fell for them, you probably had some conversations you shouldn't have had. You were hiding your cell phone from them. Maybe sent pictures you shouldn't have. Like, tell me, tell me what I'm missing here because you're, you're,

you're the, the label and identity you've given to yourself is not what I would have given you. You hit the nail on the head. I just don't feel like I can, you know, like if I, if me and my husband don't work things out, which honestly, I, I, the way that things are going, I don't see us getting back together, but partially with the separation was for us to, to step back from the relationship that we've been in and the problems we've been having and, and all of this and to decide is, is, is moving forward together, something that we want to do and we want to work on, or are we going to move forward apart and, you know, full on divorce and separate everything. And I think, um, it's, it's, it's only been a month that we've been separated. And, you know, the other day he, he was like, I don't want

to drag this out anymore. And I was like, it's been four weeks. What are we dragging out? Like, we haven't even separated our bank account yet. He may have been divorced for a year. He just didn't have the courage to say it. Because he didn't want to see himself as a guy who got, who his wife had a crush on somebody else. What else happened at home? So I think the big turning point was, um, a little, like about two and a half years ago when I think like,

there's never been much of like me wanting to do things with him, like physically and his, he is such a physical connector that, you know, for, for years, I just would kind of push under the rug. And, and I would just think that I thought something was wrong with me that I didn't feel like I wanted to have sex with him or like do things with him. And I mean, I asked like my doctor and I tried downloading apps and I tried to like make myself want it. And I just didn't and don't. And I think the big turning point a few years ago was we got into an argument and our relationship had always been pretty good.

I actually always thought that we had a stellar relationship above a lot of other people. And I think I hung on to that vision until we got in this argument about, I don't remember what it started with, but he said that he was unwanted and unloved. And he said, his life wasn't worth living anymore. And he left. He told me he's not coming back. And I just could not bear the thought that my child would lose her father. And I just, I called him and I tried to talk him back and somehow, some way. Can I hop in here real quick? Yeah. That answer you just gave is very instructive for me. And maybe it's not the full picture.

I don't want to hold you to it. But if your husband looks at you and said, I've felt unloved for long enough. And your first thought is, I don't want to lose my best friend. I don't want to lose the person who I love more than anything on the planet. The search for me figuring out ways that I can love you in the ways that you need to be loved or you want to be loved will never cease because I love you to the end of the moon and back. That's one thing. But your first thought went to, I don't want my daughter to lose her dad. It gets worse. Okay. Keep going. I talked him back and he came back home and said,

I mean, he, I had never seen him in this state. I mean, at this point, we'd been together for like eight years. And this was the first time I'd ever seen him cry. And it was just a manic state that I didn't know what to do. And when he came back home, he said, you need to give me physical affection. And I said, I want to and I I try, but I just, I just don't feel it. And, and he's like, well, then I'm just going to leave again. And I'm, I'm, I'm not coming back. And so I, like, I just made myself do what he wanted. And, you know, after it was done, he just,

he didn't seem to care that he essentially was like making me do something that I didn't want to do after he just told me that he was going to leave and go kill himself. And that behavior didn't change for about two years. So every time we would get in some sort of argument or something would happen, he would storm off and leave and threaten things. And if I didn't bow down to the physical intimacy then um I just I just could not but hold on you're describing two different things there's a difference between a sexless marriage there's difference between what is so gross about me that you won't hold my hand you won't put your hand on my shoulder those Those are super common conversations that anybody who works with couples has on a daily basis.

What you're describing is abuse. You will do this particular sex act with me or I'm going to kill myself. Well, that's like how the cycle went for so long. I know, but listen to me, listen to me. That is not love and affection. That is abuse. That is not love and affection. That is abuse. That is taking advantage of somebody.

That is not what that is. And you can be very loving and very affectionate and say, one, this sex act isn't for me. I'm not into it. And of all my, like what I would call my ride or dies, like my long-term friends and family, every one of those couples, and we're super close, we've been close since we were back in college, sometimes in high school. Everyone's like, I'm not into that. I'm super into that. It's all different. It's all different. But it's a conversation between a

couple, right right so hear me say you're not crazy it's just boiled down to i couldn't say no hold on you could well i don't say i i being in those kind of situations is is a mess and that's not for me to judge from here um so let's back all the way out and get back to your original question because let me say this your um i think this relationship needs infinitely more work than you think it does. Oh, yeah. Okay. And if you were to call me and just have told me what you said,

without you having a crush on a coworker, if what you had just, if you had just called and said, my husband says, either I do this particular sex act or he says he's going to kill himself and storms out of the house, I would tell you to run.

And if you've listened to this show very long, you know I don't tell people that. But that's a manipulative, degrading way to get what you want and has no place inside of a marriage i think where my question came in is i still can't blame him for what i did because it was my actions and i did it but now i feel like despite everything that went on and i still did that i just feel like i can't trust myself. Like, am I even worthy of being committed to, to another person ever again in my life? Like, can I call myself a good person

ever again in my life? I will. I'll call you a good person right now. I just don't feel like as someone who did that, like, I just can't, I just, I just don't feel like I am, like, worthy of being in a relationship or worthy of being considered a good person who has any sort of moral or value in their life. I think you anchored into good people do this and good people don't do that. Good people stay married forever. Good wives make their husbands so happy they just can't leave anywhere else. Bad wives' husbands leave them. Bad wives do X, Y, or Z.

Bad wives say, no, this hurts. Bad wives say, this makes me feel uncomfortable, so I'm not going to do any of that. Which what you're saying is good wives bury themselves in the yard and become walkways for their husbands. Bad wives say no, have boundaries, et cetera. Did you do something that was dumb? Yeah, 100%. Or I'll even back out of that. Did you do something that violated one of your core values?

Yeah, you did. You got to make peace with yourself? Yeah. In the future, if you're with somebody and you're in a committed relationship and somebody at work is hilarious or good looking or they make you feel alive or they put their hand in the small of your back and tell you to go out of the elevator first and it just sends a jolt of electricity through, does that happen? Yeah. And now you know, I'm not going to respond to those texts or i just don't respond to texts or i don't i'm not going to answer those emails or fill in the

blank you see what i'm saying like you've learned to not go down those roads anymore yeah the ultimate question is is jen going to be able to get to a place where jen honors and loves jen again and what I want to tell you is, sounds like for the last few years, and there's no way this just popped up after eight years. There has been some sort of, they call it the one down position. So like in counseling, there's the one up position.

There's the guys that beat their chest and scream and yell, or the wives who scream and yell and beat their chest, whatever. Then there's the one down position. Usually it's, well, you guys just go eat whatever you want. I'll just be hungry. That's fine. And everyone's like, all right, well, where do you want to go eat? So it's a very, okay, well, just whatever.

I'll just sleep on the couch then if you need those sheets on the bed. It's that, right? That's a power move. I would be willing to bet money that that has been part of the narrative of your marriage that just erupted into a, you do this or I'm killing myself. And so often when somebody's been in a relationship for so long, that's full of chaos, that's full of ups and downs and is being dragged around underwater by someone who's manipulative to the point of the abuse you've suffered. You get disconnected from yourself.

And you try to find reasons to justify why this insane evil behavior is happening to you. And then I have a conversation like this that breaks my heart because sometimes it's well did you gain 10 pounds? yes are you the grossest person? no stop did this happen?

yes did you forget his keys? yes did you fall for somebody at work and not sleep with them? yes that happened but for some reason

you've bought into that narrative that you're the worst person who's ever lived and I just need you to hear me say you're not I personally think this separation is really good and after four weeks

if he wants to bail then I think his behavior is a language and he's giving you all the information you need. And you're going to have to grieve the loss of your marriage. But this marriage is not going to end because you had a crush on a coworker. Period.

Do you believe me when I say that? I feel like it's something that I want to believe, but it's so hard to. I know. It's the truth. It's the truth. My, if you haven't already, I think it's important for you to get with a counselor on your own.

And I want you to speak out loud exactly what you've told me. And my guess is you have not told that story. Especially not to a mental health professional because every alarm they have would have gone off like mine is right now. I'm so, so, so, so, so sorry. But no, you're not a terrible person. Yes, you're worthy of being loved.

Yes, you're worthy of being loved forever. Yes, your relationship may not stand this test and it's over. Maybe not, but it sounds like it. And if you all choose to stay together, there's going to have to be some drastic changes in both you and especially your husband's way of interacting with the world. And he's going to have to take a knee in front of his wife and say, I've abused you for years and that stops now. You're worth more than this, Jen. We'll be right back.

All right, we're back. Let's go out to Stockton, California, home of the Diaz brothers, and talk to Alex. What's up, Alex? Hi, John. How are you doing? Good. How are you? Hopefully better after this call. There's been two tough ones, so give me an easy one oh in that case that i can't all right i'm here with you let's do it what's up okay so let me

start by the question um is there anything else i can do to help or stop my 12-year-old daughter from getting bullied. Oh, man. At school? Yeah. All right. So as you can imagine, I've dealt with this situation for my whole career. So I'm going to go all the way to the back, and I'm going to ask you a few questions. They're going to sound hard. Is that okay?

Yeah. Okay. Well, actually, before I do that, explain to me, teach me about the bullying. What's going on? So the past, I believe, three years, she has been going through a lot of bullying, a group of friends, and I've constantly been called. I've went there. I've huffed and puffed and demanded to talk to the bully's parents. And it is impossible. I can't even set up a meeting with the parents. I can't even leave my phone number to the parents. It's like they cut off complete communication or any kind of negotiation. I feel like the school is just, I'm mad, I'm sad, I'm just like a mix of emotions. I'm going to do something I rarely don't do,

but I understand the school's position on this one. Usually I'm complaining to do something I rarely don't do, but I understand the school's position on this one. Usually I'm complaining about the schools. I'm glad that kids can't come to school and demand my contact information and call me. I think that's unwise. You know what I'm saying? I get that. But I also get that you want justice. And tell me what they're doing to your daughter

uh they're constantly calling her names and um every time that i go and complain to the office it's like she they start calling her a snitch and um so she stops telling me but i can tell she's still going through it. And what's the school's response? It's always a program. It's always like, oh, let's do this first. Let's do this first. And then it's been three years, Sean.

Like, where is going to be the final, the finale? Where are we going to get to the actual response to it? I mean, they put her in so many programs. It just feels like they're more into trying to make the changes on her than the actual bullies. That might not be what's happening at those doors, but that's how I feel. That's actually been the move. Okay. And there was, um, so bullying is complex, right? So just for everybody listening, um, bullying is repeated harm. It can be harassment too, but it's repeated and it often, um, has a almost, I think by definition has a power hierarchy to it. Okay. So it's the kid who's not the athletic one and the other athletic kids are onto them or they're the not so pretty because they're going through an awkward phase and the kids are mean or they've got braces. So there's a, there's a hierarchy.

There's a power dynamic there. And for years, there was a bunch of conversations about how to deal with the bully. And a friend of mine named Steve is a counseling guru said he was concerned about this 20 years ago because we had stopped teaching kids how to deal with bullies. And we had just focused fully on the bad guys, whoever the bad guys happen to be. And we have to remember bad guys are kids, right? So I do expect the school to come in and say, you will not say those things.

And I also expect parents in somewhat schools to begin to react to or teach the person who's on the receiving end, especially in what I would call non-physical violence, right? You're not going to die or get put in a hospital if you don't deal with this stuff. They've got to deal with, they've got to learn those skills because this is going to be, people are mean, right? You deal with this out in the real world, right? Outside of school. So, here's a hard question what are the things they are saying and i ask this because there's different levels of sensitivity and i know i'm gonna get in trouble on the internets and

that's fine what i'm wondering is this is the school looking at the situation and seeing a group of friends um saying nice i'm just to say what my friend said. Nice face, Deloney. They used to call me Zitcom because I had bad acne as a kid. Zitcom, they used to say it all the time. But these are like my best friends in the world. And it was mean, it hurt my feelings, but also I said my things back. And we, like, it was just, so I wouldn't have been classified as bullying right yeah um and so sometimes there are since there's kids whose sensitivity alarms is is more uh finely tuned

and there are sometimes parents who if their kid comes home they said something mean just blow the roof off of everything i'm calling everybody so like just as an objective third party outsider i've got a 13 year old myself what are they saying to your daughter so are they not including her they being mean are they just saying hey we don't want you to come to our sleepover party and that's the bullying you're talking about like what are we talking about here no they they actually call her names um i'm not going to say which names, but they're really insulting about her looks, like you just mentioned. And I've explained it to her, the difference between bullying and being a jerk. Okay.

And I do tell her, like, you have to understand there's some people that have a personality that you know they're just not happy all the time and then you have the other people that are just like picking at you like poking the bear you know and that's what she's telling me is happening so there's a bully researcher by the name of izzy, I think it's Kamlin, Kamlin, Kalman, Izzy Kalman. That's what, Izzy Kalman. And he talks about one of the corners, like one of the keys of poking the bear is a bear that is unable to be poked. So I know you've had that conversation with her when one of these kids says something about her appearance.

And by the way, these aren't her friends. Like, I wouldn't even refer to them as your friends at school. They clearly are not. If she's been like, hey, that's not funny. I don't like that. And they're like, eh, we do. We're going to keep doing it. Exactly.

Then they're not, eh, we do. We're going to keep doing it. Exactly. And they're not her friends, right? What's the response when you walk her through like, hey, you know what? If somebody says something, walk away. Like they're looking for the response. We're not going to give them the response. Because clearly if they're saying something that ugly, there's something going on in their heart and mind in their house. So she said that at first she did walk away, like she did walk away,

but it just seemed like it wasn't, it didn't stop. And I've actually went through bullying myself and the same thing happened to me. You know, I don't feel like walking away actually helps it. It just makes it more easier for them because they don't get in trouble for it because all you're doing is walking away. Except that when you, except that when you tell

they double up, right? Not only do you have braces or not only are you flat chested or not only do you not have the right hair now you're a snitch too. Yeah, exactly. So Dr. Kalman has a technique where he will, somebody says, oh my gosh, you're so fat, right? And the response is, you're the most beautiful kid in school. Or, oh my gosh, you're such a slow runner. Well, you're the fastest runner out here. And that there is a counterweight that is so significant to that. And the response is often a one word response, like, yeah, or huh.

Now, that might be an afterschool special response, but when I read it, it sounded at least like, huh. It's just like, I'm not, it's so i'm not playing that game now does that take the sting out of what they said no i just i've as an educator i found it harder and harder to legislate that like because kids are going to say things to kids they're going to post things about kids they're going to write things in little notes and i get get that we want to stop that. If we see it, we're going to call it out. We're going to bring kids in and say, hey, it's devastating to talk about somebody's physical appearance. Don't do that. Don't do that. And if I hear about it again, you're going to be in

detention. But that's hard, right? So I was going to say, even if she did do that, it's going to be a little bit difficult for her because she's going through a lot of depression, anxiety. And for her to be like positive response back when she just feels completely down, that's difficult for her. Because I've tried to tell her something like that and here's what i totally get it i totally get it but here's what i want to say you'll have to choose your heart here continuing for three years on a track that's not working absent take your kid out of school and that sounds like you just get a kid out of there well if you're a working parent in a like in a community that's that's not always that easy right um and just i can't just quit work and homeschool you because we got bills to pay so i there's there's a there's there's a trapped element

here right um she's gonna have to choose her hard what i think y'all should spend some time doing instead of just telling her you need to you need to y'all have to role play this thing y'all gonna have to practice and practice and practice and practice almost to the point that it becomes silly here's how that looks in my house okay and this is something that i've been practicing for years is this the right way to do this i don't think so but it's a way and it worked for me as a kid. If I say, gosh, it stinks in here. My son will just automatically without even looking up, go, you stink. And without even blinking, my daughter will just respond, your face stinks. Here's what I'm trying to teach them. And I've been teaching this for years in my house.

Number one, there's a time and a place. And if there's other adults, if I'm being serious, that behavior doesn't happen. But I don't want words from other kids to have quite the sting. And so, we've turned that into a game.

Their bodies are not going to respond as though it's a threat. Now, if they're in love with somebody, if this is their core group of people, different ballgame. But if the instant response is, oh, I've played basketball. I've got another shot then. Then it changes the dynamic. That's not for every family and that's definitely not for every kid. So I can't recommend that. But a practice of your shoes are ridiculous. Those

are the cheapest shoes. Well, you have the nicest shoes. It's less about being super positive. And what we're doing is we're just teaching a different karate kick, right? But it's one that's not going to get anybody in trouble. It's just going to stop the behavior. Because here's what we know. Walking away, as you said, isn't super helpful. Telling on them isn't super helpful, right? What are the things you've tried? Trying to get in touch with their parents, go for it. So there was this one time after I picked up my daughter after school and we were driving back home and we see one of the bullies going into their house. So I saw where the bully lived. And I told my daughter, I said, tell that bully that if he doesn't stop, we know where he lives and I'm going to go talk to his mom. And the bully, my goodness, his response was like, I don't give a F. So I was like, oh, okay. He doesn't care. No problem. So I go and knock on the door,

talk to the mom and the mom acts like she's so surprised it's the first time her hearing it, even though the school said that they called her a million times, right? So then it still happened after that, went back a second time. And I end up telling her, listen, this has been going on. And this was back a few months ago, so it was like two years. I was like, this has been going on for two years. I'm tired of it. I'm at my wit's end. And I'm telling you, I'm going to put a juvenile restraining order on your child on behalf of my daughter, which means that you would have to transfer to a different school and probably move because we live really close by.

And I don't want to do that. That's the last thing that I want to do. And you're not going to believe it, John. That bully stopped completely. Oh, I don't doubt it for a second. I don't doubt it for a second. Why haven't you done that to all those kids? Why haven't you put a restraining order on them?

Well, that's the thing that I don't know where they live. Yeah, but the police do. Yeah. You know what? And I've tried to call the police too, by the way. They've been called like twice. The first time it was because my daughter wanted to end her life, and she said it in school, and they called the police, and they suggested me to take her to the crisis center. And the second time was me calling them about this bullying thing, and it just seems like the police is more on how the school is handling it.

Yeah. Is there an option to take her out of this situation? Just get her out of the mess? Yeah, but I feel like transferring is not going to do anything. The bullies are still going to bully. If it's not my daughter, it's going to be someone else. I understand that, but right now, let's take care of your daughter. You're right.

There's a longer game to play here, but every day this thing goes on, your daughter is in the middle of it. Yeah. And at least it gives a control alt delete for your daughter because she's going to have to learn some skills. Yeah. We cannot have a culture where everybody is walking around because that window gets narrower and narrower and narrower, right? Yeah. window gets narrower and narrower and narrower, right? And so she's going to have, what I mean by that, the window gets narrower from what hurts my feelings and what I consider bullying versus

what you consider bullying. And then all of a sudden, none of us can move. And then the only move is start canceling people, right? That's been our culture the last five or six years. So she's going to have to learn some skills on standing up for herself, on not accepting this, on walking away, on appropriately challenging back, et cetera. And that will help with, as she learns, gains confidence in those responses, that will help her entire psyche.

And you're watching your daughter shrivel up in front of you over the last three years. Get her out of this environment, man. If you can, get her out. You're right. And then we'll play the long game. Fair? Fair. I don't want you to look at this like you lost. I want you to look at this like you saved your daughter's life.

Okay? You're right because I feel like you're going to war with a bunch of 13 year olds and 12 year olds and I feel like you're going to war with 12 year olds and parents that you've never met and may never meet and you're going to war against a school that isn't doing enough to protect your daughter, and you're going to war against a young girl's mental health challenges that are continuing to dwindle in front of you, what I'm going to tell you is quit going to war. Get your daughter out of this mess.

Take her to a safe place. And then you can begin teaching her some skills then y'all can practice at home not in the car on the way to work like alright so if anyone says anything you're just going to say no no no we're just going to role play at home no those shoes are stupid

oh you've got great shoes you can't even run right is that fun when you say that yeah we're just going to practice those things and it may not pay off when she's 13 it may not pay off when she's 14 but when she's 19 in college and somebody

says something like that man she's going to have a skill set that many 19 year olds don't have and so everybody listening to this this bullying stuff is such a disaster It's such a mess because it's so clear that it destroys kids and it's also so clear that it's kids doing It's kids trying to be funny or kids trying to not feel less than And it's hard to legislate that it's very hard

Because you can outlaw saying mean things, but that's going to be subjective across the board. And you can outlaw, if you say this one more time to this kid, you are out of here, which I think should have happened in this case. And the school has chosen not to do that for whatever reason.

I'm going to double down if I can, if any possibility, and get my kid out of there. I'm also going to double down and try to teach my kid some skills. And if I don't have those skills, we're going to get with a child counselor. We're going to figure these skills out, work with a school counselor at this new school. I'm going to quit going to war. I'm going to quit banging my head for three years because the whole time I'm banging my head, my kid is going to school there every day, every day there, every day and parents if you have a kid who's a jerk stop it stop it it's not

funny it's funny when my seven-year-old makes a joke at my expense that's funny but we're all in it together but you'll never hear my daughter do that to somebody else because she's too sensitive she cares too much about other people raise kids who much about other people. Raise kids who care about other people. Bullying starts and stops in the house often. Stop. Stop. Because there's another little kid on the other side of this that's trapped.

We'll be right back. Hey, up Deloney here listen you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point in my new book building a non-anxious life you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, hey, as we wrap up today's show,

usually we have lyrics or like something cool that happened. I just want to kind of run back through this today's show because this is a hard one for me. And I know that this was a messy one and none of these calls tied up at the end. And unfortunately, that's the world, right?

That's our life. Jenna and Kelly do a great job of picking calls that come in from all over the world to say that we might be able to wrap up, but there's always another layer and another layer and another layer. So just to run back through these calls, if you're married to somebody and they leave you for a week for a business trip

and they refuse to call you, then they blame you for it. It's not your fault if you make a mistake in your marriage after two years four years eight years of what I would consider abusive behavior and by the way if you tell somebody

you do this sex act that makes you uncomfortable you don't want to do or I'm going to kill myself or I'm going to leave you forever you and the kids That's manipulative and abusive And then you do something you're not proud of whatever that happens to be You get a ticket in a school zone. You have a crush on a co-worker. Whatever the thing happens to be

Yes, you are still lovable forever You can you still have value. You got a lot to learn. You got some things I'm not going to do again, but you're very much lovable. And if you found yourself being abusive, you got mental health challenges, you've been struggling,

you find yourself being manipulative and you go, oh my gosh, I don't want to be that person. You have value too. Stop that, what you're doing. Stop and go get help immediately. And almost every time separation is important there. And if you've got a kid who's being bullied, the first thing is I'm going to get my kid out of that environment if I can, if it's safe. And I know that's not possible for everyone. There's millions and millions of people who can't just transfer schools or just move schools or whatever.

And it's also very important that we create a generation of kid that knows how to respond to bullies, both online and in person. That we cultivate friendships where friends will stand together and say, that's not cool. We're not having that anymore. But that means we are going to not just do programs, but we're going to, as parents, as neighbors, as friends, we're going to teach our kids, hey, when somebody says this, this is what you say back.

And I'm not saying you punch them in the nose. No, that's the world we have right now. And it's not working. But there are some strategies that you can learn to deal with bullying. There is a moment for standing your ground. There is. And there's also a moment for I'm getting my kid out of this mess. Because over the last three years, I've had a joyful, fun kid who's now depressed and so anxious they can't breathe. And often that means there's stuff they're not telling you because they're scared of how you're going to respond. Let's take care of our kids first. Let's get them in a safe environment first. And then if we want to go try to change the system, great, we'll change the system.

But let's don't do it at their expense if at all possible. And if you can't get your kid out and teaching your kid is not working, raise all kind of hell. As much as you can, go to whoever you can, call whoever you can, continue to, because your kid's worth it. Your kid's worth it. So sorry, none of these calls wrapped up, but I'm also not sorry because this is our world, man. If you know of kids getting bullied, lean in. If you know of kids who are bullying other kids, lean in. If you know of a friend who is looking in the mirror

and thinks she's unlovable or he's unlovable because of a thing they've done, get closer, not further away. If you know of a buddy who's just took off on his wife and he's like, yeah, I'll have to see if the vibe's right. Get in his business if he's your friend. All of us, let's do better. See you next time.