The Dr. John Delony Show - My Mom Had an Affair With a Catholic Priest

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

On this episode, we hear about:  - A woman reeling after learning her biological father is actually a Catholic priest - A wife upset that her husband won’t engage in her West African culture -��A couple struggling with his son’s dangerous behavior Offers From Today's Sponsors 10% off your first month of Therapy at Better Help!   3 Free Months of Hallow  25% Off Thorne Orders  15% off the Apollo Wearables Up to $400 in savings on an Eight Sleep bundle!  20% off Organifi with code: DELONY Next Steps 📞 Ask John a Question!  click here! 📚 Get Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Take the Anxiety Test  📚Own Your Past, Change Your Future  ❓Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭John's Free Guided Meditation ❤️ Money & Marriage Event: http://ramseysolutions.com/getaway Listen to More From Ramsey Network 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 💰 George Kamel 💼 The Ken Coleman Show 📈 EntreLeadership    Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy https://www.ramseysolutions.com/company/policies/privacy-policy  

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. My husband gave me an Ancestry.com DNA kit as a Christmas present. Crap. I ended up discovering that my daddy was not my daddy. My biological father was the parish priest that my mother had had a very brief affair with. Yo, yo, what's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. We're talking about your relationships, your marriages, your kids, your neighbors,

whatever you got going on in your life. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. It's 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask ASK. Real people, man. That's you trying to figure out your marriage, trying to figure out your boundaries with your in-laws, trying to figure out what job you should take, whatever you got going on. Give me a buzz. If you are married or you're about to be or you're about not to be,

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bar none it was magic and I can't wait to up the ante again this year alright let's rock out to Macon, Georgia and talk to Rebecca. What's up, Rebecca? Hey, Dr. Deloney.

I love your show. Thank you so much for taking my call. I love you. I made that weird. I'm sorry. I got all weird. I'm grateful that you called. How about that?

I probably do love you. You're probably pretty wonderful, huh? I am pretty wonderful. All right, good job. I have a unique problem that I need help with. All right, bring it. So about six years ago, my husband gave me an Ancestry.com DNA kit

as a Christmas present. Crap. What happened? Well, I was just trying to figure out what county from Ireland I was from, and I ended up discovering that my daddy was not my daddy. You are not the father. That's right.

Did you find out who the father was? I certainly did. After a lot of investigation, I determined that my biological father was the parish priest that my mother had had a very brief affair with just before marrying my daddy. Yeah, it doesn't take a very long affair. No, it doesn't. They were only together about two months top, and then they decided mutually to split, and he moved on with his life, And he, to this day, is a priest, an active priest in ministry. And he's nearing retirement. I mean, he's nearly 80 years old. My mom is in her 80s too. Do y'all have contact? Do y'all talk?

Absolutely. We talk frequently. And I've met him one time. And he's a wonderful man. No, he's not. No, he's not. No, a wonderful man. No, he's not. No, he's not. No, he's not. No, he's not. He's not. He didn't know about me until I ambushed him. So my mom never told him about me.

When did you ambush him? A few years ago. So about five years ago. And he's only seen you one time? Yeah. And he's continued on serving people under the illusion that he's something that he is not? He is. He is. He's still an active priest. That's tough. That's tough for me. Yeah, I know. I i mean i want to give you a little bit more context you can kind of help me okay yeah yeah before i just start judging everybody and getting all frustrated um i have a i have a thing uh if you take a job in a public setting more importantly if you take a job as a leader of a church any

denomination you have to have to take the responsibility that people are watching you and you they follow you that's the job and it's a there's a ton of power in that, and if you are not honest with it, or if you abuse it, or if you, fair or not, a priest or a pastor that cheats on his spouse, violates his code of ethics, violates the things he teaches on a regular basis,

or she teaches on a regular basis, it carries more weight. It's more destructive because it can take down a whole group of people. Oh, yeah. Right? It's very destructive because it can take down a whole group of people. Oh, yeah. It's very destructive. So I hold them to a higher standard, and I just get super enraged. Because then they do these gnarly little things where they twist it around, and somehow this has become your fault, hasn't it? Well—

Or your job is to protect him, right, in his image? No, no. I don't feel that obligation, not to the degree that I would if I was much younger and literally needed support from him, which I don't. I'm 44 years old. I found out about this when I was 38, and so did he. He found out about it just five years ago. And when I first found out, I definitely went to a therapist and we worked through further apart. But it's starting to bubble up for me again for one particular reason. So when I was a toddler and this big corrosive secret was like a cancer in my family, and of course I didn know. And my parents orchestrated this cover-up. Unfortunately, one of my older brothers stumbled across this information as a teenager. And that brick was too heavy for him.

And he ended up making the choice to cut ties with our family. Of course, I didn't understand or know why that was happening when I was just a little kid, but the estrangement continues to this day. And it's been, I was 11 years old the last time I saw him. The reason it's coming up now is because my 16-year-old son is getting ready to look at colleges and he's going to be leaving home. And like you always say, I've put some kind of GPS pin on that moment and I want to tell our kids, this is the truth. This is a part of me. This is what we found out.

But I'm very mindful about how that will affect their development and their ability to deal with it. Okay. So what I'm going to tell you has to be laid on a foundation of you're an extraordinary woman. Like I can tell you've put the work in and I could peel that back for the listener, but you've put the work in, haven't you? I absolutely have. I've been on a journey and I'm still on the journey. But I need you to hear what you're, I'm going to say back to you some of the things you've said to me and I want you to understand what you're carrying around because I think you're right. You have a GPS pin that's going off, but it's in a different place than you think it is.

Okay. Your brother did not leave because of you period your brother did not cut ties with family because of something you did and you've been hanging on to that your whole life. Okay? Right. Fair? Yeah, it's fair. It's like being infected with something but not realizing what the diagnosis is until you're 38.

It just feels like the people who were closest to you lied to you and built a whole house of straw on the foundation of sand. Then the water came in. Yeah, the water came in. No one could have predicted that 40 years later you could order a kit online for $69. That's right. And everything just unfolds. Secrets always come out.

And so I think your GPS pin is not in your son leaving. That's going to be weird. My son's going to high school and already I just start crying. I'm driving down the road. It's so absurd. It's so absurd. I spent 20 years with dads on move-in day at the university.

Dads, these big burly dudes hugging me in the hallway crying. And I'd be like, oh my gosh get over yourself another thought of my Son being in high school. I just I you know, I get it Part of that transition is going to be natural. You're looking at colleges like your son's about to go away, right? I mean and he's not gonna go away forever, but he's about to transition. I think your gps pin is Oh crap, i'm repeating this cycle because I'm keeping secrets too.

Yes, that is my main concern. I don't want to pass this brick on to the third generation. Yes, but listen, I'm going to go back to something I said earlier, and I want you to metabolize this over the next few weeks. You are still trying to figure out how you can make this all okay. And what happened to you, the way you found out, something was done to you. You are a victim of two parents who lied to you. And I'm going to go further to say five years ago, this man found out he has a daughter and he's only seen her once. He's not a good man. He's a coward.

And I would say that if he was sitting right in front of me, because when you find out you have a daughter, your world stops and she becomes your world. And his didn't, his charade continued. And you have been trying to make it all okay. Right. And it's not your job.

So you are not going to be them when you tell your son what happened to you. So I don't want you to equate what happened, what you felt, your whole world ended up like disintegrated. That won't happen to your son when you tell him the truth. Okay. You can frame it as Mimi and Papa are evil liars. You can do that. I wouldn't do that. Right.

I mean, I can't because their grandparents, not my priest father, but their grandparents who they've known for their whole lives. I mean, they're extremely involved. Loving grandparents. And I think

I'm not going to give them a pass on what they did. I'm not going to give them a pass on the context. And 40 years ago, the world was different. Right? Right. It's not a, the world was different. Right? Right. It's not a pass. What happened to you is wrong.

Yeah. But that does provide some context for when you tell this to your 16-year-old. And I have a 12-year-old, so the timing of it is what we're worried about. 12-year-old's probably not worried about 12 year olds probably not ready if 12 year old is in a position where if he asks I will disclose limited information so what am I saying here 16 year old

I would probably before y'all go look at colleges you and only you take him out and say there's a family secret I found out about several years ago and um i mean you're old enough now i'm gonna bring you in on it okay and before we go i love my mom i love my my dad um and then i did this 23 i just just, to be honest with them. Yeah.

And say, it messed up my whole world and it doesn't change the fact that my stepdad was a pretty amazing guy and stepped into a gap and raised me and was awesome and he's a great granddad to you. Right.

It also doesn't change the fact that my mother did something 40 years ago in a very different sociocultural context and she made a call. Yeah. And here we are.

Right? Right. And then exhale. Right? But at some point, he's going to want to meet his granddad. Yeah, and logistically, that's complicated. I disagree. If it's with a coward, it is.

If it's with somebody who's going to own up to their responsibilities and take responsibility for the family lineage they've put into the world. Yeah. It's not. that based on his letters and calls and texts to me, he cares for them, but from afar. And I think he's willing to let me take the lead on when I bring them into the circle. Hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you talking about your birth dad?

Yeah. Oh, my friend Rebecca. He doesn't get a vote on anything. Okay. Zero. You don't seek out permission for when the right moment to tell this story is. Okay. He cashed out his right, any rights to this story at all.

You do what's best for the family that you are holding together. Right. He gets no say, zero, zilch. He cashed out. He walked away. And in his defense, he didn't know for 40 years. Now he does. He gets no votes.

None. Zero. Now, when it comes to your 12-year-old, I would, if the 12-year-old says, 12-year-olds have a weird way, like 10 to like 13-year-olds have a weird way of just dropping questions and you're like, how did you know that?

If he ever says like, you don't look anything like your dad like yeah there's a whole bunch of family stories that one day when you're older i'll tell you what do you mean there's just a whole bunch of family stories and what we're gonna do is we're gonna start leaving bread cram breadcrumbs so that when he's 16 and y'all start looking at colleges you're gonna take him out and say, remember that I told you there were some stories. Well,

there's a big one. And that way you're not lying. No, he's a great, we just look differently. And then you have to unwind a lie. You're not giving the full story because a 12 year old can't absorb all that, but you're also laying a path for when this story comes true.

And if you ever point blanks you, Hey, I don't think stepdad is your actual dad. Well, yeah, you're right. Things were very, very different, but he's the man who raised me and he's the man who showed up. So I call him dad. And then we'll go from there when that day happens. It probably won't happen like that, but just in case your 16-year-old gets home, it just starts spilling the beans. You may have to have a conversation earlier. What you don't want to do to your kids is the same thing that happened to you.

A, you found out your dad wasn't your dad. A, you found out that the man who is your dad was in the dark for a long time. A, you found out your dad is just going to send texts and letters. He's not going to show up and grab his baby girl and squeeze her until she can't breathe and say, I love you. And I'm so sorry. And I miss you. And I, we have 40 years to make up. I'm just going to text you. But underneath all that is two parents who for 40 years lied to you. And what you're not going to

do is repeat that same cycle to your kids. You're not going to lie to your kids and not lying to your kids doesn't mean telling your kids everything because they can't they can't hold it all i'm so so so so so sorry your job is not to hold these secrets in your job is not to protect this guy your job is to honor your kids and to honor you and your family. And I'm sorry this was done to you. And I'm sorry this is continuing in this way. Or the thought it would even occur to you that this stranger who's dropped into your life suddenly gets to speak into how you parent your kids and what comes next. It's a heavy, heavy switch. I'm so sorry. Keep doing the hard work. You're an impressive, brave woman, as strong as they get.

And it was an honor talking to you. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. October is the season for wearing costumes. And if you haven't started planning your costume, seriously, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go as Brad Pitt because we have the same upper body, but whatever. Look, it's costume season. And if we're being honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind masks and costumes more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social settings. We do this around our own families. We even do this with ourselves I have been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst

If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self behind costumes and masks I want you to consider talking with a therapist Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself Where you can be honest with yourself and where you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for just about any schedule. You just get online and you fill out a short survey and you'll be matched with a licensed

therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Deloney. All right, let's go out to Jackie in Portland. Hey, Jackie, what up? Hi, John. How are you? Doing great. How are you? Hanging in there. A little nervous. I'm nervous too. I'm not very good at this. What's up? So my question is, how do I bond with my husband

about my culture while we are empty nesters? Tell me more. So we've been together about 30 years this year and he really has not been involved with my African culture. I didn't really realize until I had kids how important it was to me.

Tell me about your culture. So I was born originally in West Africa. Like in Ghana, over in that area? Yes. Very cool. Okay. Yeah. And then.

I have some strange family connections there we can talk offline about. That's very cool. Yeah. Well, when I came to America and started going to American school, I was teased. And so I did everything. I was told I wasn't American. So I did everything I could to just home to meet my parents and my mother, you know, fed him and was like, what are you going to feed this white man? So it was. How was that? Was that incredible?

It was. It was. Because he is very, very American. He's super, super white. Yes. How did he handle it? Was it a good trip? Was it fun?

It was, I mean, no, he didn't go to Ghana. I took him in America. Now, my husband has never stepped foot in Ghana. Okay, why won't he go home with you? He says it's too hot. That's bull crap on a stick with a pony. And there's no Diet Pepsi. And there's no Diet Pepsi?

Oh, so, good gosh. That's so dumb. That's so dumb. I mean, that's about as American excuse as you can get. It's too hot, and I don't get my diet soda. Have your kids gone back? I bought my son as an adult. It's really expensive.

And so I bought my son. We recently went last year as a family. My husband, not my husband, my son, my mother, my brother, because my grandmother had passed away. And so we went there and my son, my mother, my brother, because my grandmother had passed away. And so we went there and my son, you know, my kids are adults. And so they finally got to see it for the first time. I hadn't been there in 30 years because the last time I was there, I was brutally raped by a doctor. So it was very hard for me to go back.

I'm so sorry. by a doctor. So I just, it was very hard for me to go back. Um, but yeah, but after going back there last year, I just, I felt a connection, um, with my people, my family. Um, it was just so great to be back and see everybody. Um, and so I've just, you know, I, I realized that that's something that I've really been missing in my life. Yeah. You, you, you, you, as much as we don't want to, when you bury a part of your culture, when you bury a part of yourself, the movements and the voices and the faces and the activities and the celebrations and the grieving all of these things woven together if you bury part of that

in order to keep the peace in whatever environment you found yourself it it it grows, right? Fester is probably too dramatic of a word, but it festers under there. You never feel peace because you're not ever fully you. Yes. Right? Yes. And if we were sitting down one-on-one and we had a couple of hours,

I would draw this from you, but I'll just put it out on the table. Is there a part of you that feels like after 30 years, your husband still doesn't fully love the real you or doesn't fully love the woman he's married to? Yes, I have felt that. Have you said that? I have not said that in those exact words, no. Okay.

I think you've done 30 years plus the years you were dropped in the middle of a foreign country and a foreign culture and you were mocked and made fun of and said you weren't enough and you weren't like people. I think you've buried yourself long enough and you're changing the dynamic in that marriage. And I think the challenge for you is you're going to get one set of voices that says, he sucks. He needs to get over it. That's a heavy light switch to flip in the middle of a 30 year marriage, right? Right. And on the other side, you're going to get voices that say, oh, no, you live in America now. And that's bullcrap too. This is part of your life. This is part of you. But at some point for you to be whole,

you're going to have to sit down and look this man across the aisle. You love this guy, right? Yes, wholeheartedly. And he doesn't want to go visit your home because he misses his diet pepsi but is he a pretty good guy good dad he is okay he's a good guy okay sounds like he has a lack significant understanding or education about your culture and more importantly about what it means to feel so unplugged. And maybe a reference point is the thought of him going to your home country, that feeling he gets, that anxiousness, that I ain't doing that. Tell him that's what I felt every day

for the last 40 years. And I've stayed here for you. And I want you to know all of me. And also, if I can just speak frankly, I would not want to go back and revisit the scene where somebody brutally assaulted my wife. And so maybe there's something bigger than just the cultural context here. Maybe there's the violence.

Did somebody hurt my wife? I don't know the rules. And so I think Psalm, I'm always wanna be compassionate about, I'm gonna teach you. But as a part of us moving forward, I need you to know and love all of me. And here's what this looks like.

And then that's really vulnerable for you. I know because he can look at you and say, I'm not going. I will never go. Yeah. And that's hard, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's hard, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Because I've seen other and been around other couples, you know, whose American spouses embrace their wife's culture and have taken their young kids and have, you know, they eat, they did the food and the music and everything, and mine doesn't do that. And so I'm jealous. Well, and I think that's part of telling the truth. I'm jealous. Yeah. And maybe ask, like, what is it? It's not Diet Pepsi.

Stop with that nonsense. And it's not the heat. Stop with that nonsense. Beneath it, what's the story beneath it? Is it safety concerns? Is it too much nonsense media? Is it I honestly don't know the rules. I'm scared to be in a place where I don't know the language.

What is it? Let's address those core fears. Because y'all are in the back half now. Y'all get to pick. Y'all get to choose what happens in the back half now. Y'all get to pick at what happens. Y'all get to choose what happens in the back half. It can be an amazing adventure where you go all over the place and you learn all about things

and suddenly this super white Midwestern American with a Diet Pepsi can in his hand is dancing with his wife and gone. Like how crazy fun and beautiful is that? Amazing. And, like I said, I've got family members that travel to Ghana somewhat regularly. And the shots and the travel and the joy mixed with the poverty and all of it, right? It's a big jumbled bag, right?

And so I think telling a guy who clearly hasn't traveled very much, like, hey, this is important to me and let's get to the root of it. All of this rests on an understanding that he can look at you and say, I don't, I'm not doing it. And then you're going to have to decide,

am I going to make a life where part of my life is I'm going to do this by myself, but this is going to be part of me because it is part of me and my kids. And we're going to make a regular pilgrimage every year is what we're going to do. It's going to be a part of us. Or are you going to put a lock on that box and bury it forever? I think that's the question you're going to have to ask for yourself. And my, my, my deepest hope is that he does this with you. Me too. Me too.

He would have fun. I know he would. I know he would. I know he would. Thank you for honoring the complexity of his situation. And more importantly, thank you for telling us your story. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. Invite your kids.

And I think sometimes we think cultural differences have to be across the world like this. I grew up in the city. I grew up in the suburbs of a city. And my wife grew up on the outskirts of a smaller West Texas town. We grew up seven hours apart from each other, but we might as well have been on different planets. And it's important for me to go

be a part of the culture she grew up with. I watch her go, and she exhales. And I've also seen my wife come to the bowels of a Houston punk rock venue and sit up against the wall during a wild 30-foot fall show while there's mosh pits and people flying off the balcony. Because that was the culture I grew up in. And it was, I want to know all of you. I'm going to love all of you. So this, like while we're talking Ghana and America right now, it can be as just a few hours away,

but this idea that I want to know all about you and I want to love all of you. And I can't pretend that your childhood, that your family, your lineage doesn't exist. Is that fair? Right. That's fair. Amazing.

Your mission is to tell the truth. And I know that's going to be hard, right? Yes. So write down on a piece of paper all by yourself. Take yourself to a coffee shop and get some tea and write down, here's what I want. I want to go on a trip. I want to get a budget and once a year I want to go to take one kid

or all the kids or I want to do the whole family. What are the things you want? And then in another column, what do you need? Husband, I need you to love all of me. I need you to know all of me. I need to get to the bottom of your fears on this deal. I need us to be together as we decide, as we co-create what the next 30 years

of our marriage is gonna be like. Because I don't wanna get to the end and think, man, I wish my kids had gotten to know their family members or their cousins or their, or their, the things that make them who they are. Phew. You're awesome, Jackie. Thank you so much for the call. And to the husbands out there, just go. Just go.

Go scared. Go freaked out. Just go. Almost always incredible. We'll be right back. It's time to talk about Organifi. All right, here's one of my main life goals. I want to be as healthy as possible for as long as possible. I want to be that old semi-balding guy in the back of the mosh pit. And I also want to be that old guy dancing with his beautiful wife into my eighties. And I want to be able to roll around with my grandkids and some

WWE style wrestling match into my nineties. And that's why right now I exercise, I work on my friendships and I try to eat and drink things that only have safe, high quality, high integrity ingredients. And this is why I love Organifi. They're incredibly selective about what goes into their whole food blends. And Organifi gives you ingredients with integrity, plant-based, certified organic, vegan, dairy-free, soy-free, and glyphosate residue-free. By the way, that's a pesticide you don't want anywhere near you. And it's simple to get the health benefits with Organifi. You just mix with water or your favorite beverage and drink it down. You can take their

green juice first thing in the morning to balance stress and get ready for your day. And you can take Organifi red juice in the afternoon or before a workout for natural sustained energy and endurance. And I love my happy drops every day for natural mood support with saffron extract. Go to Organifi.com slash Deloney right now to save 20% off at checkout with code Deloney. That's Organifi, O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com slash Deloney and code Deloney for 20% off. All right, we're back. Let's go to Denver, Colorado, and we have a couple on the line.

Caitlin, are you there? I am. Thanks so much for having me. You got it. So I'm going to bring in your husband? Fiance? Who is it? Fiance, yes.

Fiance. All right, I'm going to bring in your fiance, Rob. Rob, you there? Yes, I'm here. How are you doing? All right, what's up, homie? All right. I'm going to bring in your fiance, Rob. Rob, you there? Yes, I'm here. How are you doing? All right. What's up, homie? All right.

So I got Rob and Caitlin. You're both on? Yes, we are. Awesome. Well, thanks for calling in. How can I help? Let's go. Caitlin, you go first, and then Rob, you respond.

I like to make it as dramatic as possible. Perfect. Perfect. So my fiance and I are both parents to children from previous marriages. We both have primary custody of our children. So we have a full house and are working through all of the craziness that comes with a blended family. So his son is six and my children are five and two. And so the reason that we're calling today is that his son has had some significant behavioral issues predating our relationship, but the growing risk

is becoming more prominent as time passes and our kids spend more time together. Just for an example, a couple of weeks ago, all in the same week, his son had hit the babysitter's daughter, got in trouble for physically bullying two kids at school, and then even made a death threat toward another student. And at home, he's just disrespectful, doesn't listen, and will lie and try to manipulate us. And while he hasn't physically seriously harmed my kids in the past, there have been instances of hitting or kicking and verbally just being not nice to them pretty regularly. So our question is, I guess my question, while I commend my fiance's efforts to correct and frankly figure out what the issues are, can I or should I continue to subject my children to the reputational, emotional, and physical risk that we see in his son? I've got a pretty firm answer on that, but Rob, uh, hop in here. Yeah, I'm up here.

Yeah. Tell me, tell me. So Caitlin, Caitlin, um, I don't want to say put her version on, but like you told me the story, fill in the gaps for me. So everything that she said is, is valid. Um, we have been working with my son. I mean, I've been working my son with my son since he was born. Um, we have been working with my son. I mean, I've been working my son with my son since he was born. Um, he has a very, uh, when, when I, when me and his mother got divorced, um, the family home situation for him obviously was torn to pieces. And so he, for the, until he was four or no, until he was five,

he would go back and forth every three months from my house to his mother's house. And so he was getting a lot of parallel parenting, um, due to animosity, um, between the two of us. What's parallel parenting? So like, you know how, you know, there's co-parenting where you work together and then parallel parenting is when we can't, like there's no communication. Oftentimes it's the complete opposite of what I would do is what she would do.

Um, for example, his bedtime there is at midnight and they don't have dinner. They only snack until midnight. Um, and here, bedtimes eight 30 and we eat dinner and then we go to, and then that's it. I have all my notes here. Let me see. So that he drowned a pet. Tell me about that. Oh, well, so both of the boys were down, we have livestock and both of the boys were down at the barn and they, we have turkeys. And so

they had, I don't know, we don't know for sure whose idea it was, but they were like, well, let's see if they can swim because the turkeys are, you know, they take well to the kids and they're very social animals. And so one of someone, we weren't there physically, but someone had put one of the turkeys in water and holding the second turkey. And then, um, when we, I walked outside to call them in and the barn is pretty far from the house. So I called them in and I guess whoever was holding the last bird dropped the bird into the water and then left and both of them died. Um, now there was a lot of remorse there for that. I mean, both of the boys cried a lot and they, they understood the loss of life and

they were really disappointed because they, I mean, they spent every day playing with the turkeys. Um, so that, that's that backstory. What diagnostics does your son have? Surely you're working with a professional. Yeah. So, um, his that he does have severe case of ADHD, which I grew up with that as well, and I still have that. Wait, you said a pediatrician. Have you sat down and got a psyche evows for kids in the greater Colorado or greater Denver area, including Colorado Springs, are five to eight months on a wait list. So I even with a referral, we have been unable to get him in to a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist. And I mean, I've called Caitlin could attest to this. I mean, I've called at least since we've been trying to get him in, I've called well over 20 and I'm on the wait list for at least six. Um, even with the violent outbursts. Yes. They still will not, they won't

prioritize or anything. I've tried and I've told them the full story. Just school referral? And even with school referral, I mean, I have letters from his school that I share with his pediatrician. But even with those letters, I still, I mean, aside from taking him to a hospital, which I did talk to them, but they also were saying that that's more of like a non-emergent. Yeah, it's an acute thing. It wouldn't do anything. Yeah.

So, I mean, it's like I, as a father to my son, I'm between a rock and a hard place where the only resource that I have is the pediatrician, which is a great, he's great, but I only have the pediatrician and then a school counselor that pays very close attention to him. And between those two, that's all I have. I've tried to get more support than that, but there's just, it's just not available. And then with the wait list, I mean, me uh, you know, we're planning on moving out of state in the next three months. So I mean, there's waitlist makes we're planning on moving actually to, um, out East to Nashville. Okay. I would get on a list ASAP. Um, here's, here's the,

uh, what is your pediatrician diagnosis kid with um so he's been diagnosed with the adhd and then he said so we're still in trials we had to adjust the medication we tried sertraline because there was a lot of depression and like self-harm in there. Kid six? Yes. But his mother used to, when he was a baby, this was part of the reason of the divorce, his mother would do self-harm with him, like around him while I would be at work. And I didn't catch this until I put cameras in the house. Yeah, geez.

So she does what she did, which is like banging heads against the wall and scratching her face and scratching his hands. So this is a kid that's experienced a ton of trauma. Yeah. You need to get him into a psyche, Val. You know that, so I'm not going to beat you up over that. I can't believe in the greater Denver area there's not somebody that could get him into a psyche veil. You know that. So I'm not going to beat you up over that. I can't believe in the greater Denver area,

there's not somebody that could get him in, but I trust that you love your kid and you're trying. Yeah. I do know that you could find a child counselor or therapist. And I would be maniacal. Because that child is, all the things you're telling me suggest that kid has seen some things that this and this may not be the format for you to talk about all of it um or

maybe some things that you don't know but that kid has seen darkness fair fair okay um the trajectory Fair. Okay. The trajectory of this kid is very unsettling. Yeah. It's very concerning. It is. And the challenge is his body knows one way to get what it's craving, and that is stability and connection. And it knows one way to do that and any sort of disruption to that pattern results in these violent outbursts and they're escalating and i always want to look at trends trend lines here

and as you're talking and talking and talking and talking this kid has been through hell that's not why y'all called you know that stuff i want to encourage you somebody somewhere because this kid needs to sit with a play therapist in a major major way and um if you're moving in the next few months, I would get on the wait list ASAP A-A-A-S-A-P And the second part is You can't have other children five and two in the house in this situation That aren't aren't siblings

You just can't Because what they're going to do is they're going to absorb that both you and your fiance's angst that challenge plus the attention that goes to this kid plus the not feeling safe in their own home a home for a child has to be the place that is all y'all y'all y'all free like base, where they can go touch and say, I'm here. Their home is not that. They have an unsafe other kid here. And I know that's hard to hear, man,

but I couldn't in good conscience tell you, yeah, just keep working on it, but I can't, man. It's an unsafe place for that five and two year old. And if he's punching kids inside of his own home sometimes kids act out out of context they'll be really aggressive you know at school they'll be really aggressive here this is this is kind of this is just expanding and especially in his home um but yeah that would be that would be my recommendation man my well my number one recommendation would be you got to get with a child counselor asap

if you can't get with a psychiatrist i get it but man um gotta get with child counselor asap okay um and yeah i i would not feel safe about leaving a five-year-old and a two-year-old in this situation which i know has all sorts of y'all of, y'all got plans, y'all want to move, y'all want to do all this stuff. I get all that. This kid needs some stability in a major, major way. So another layer to this that we had just talked about and would like your insight on is, and I hear you, I hear you loud and clear, and it's obviously why I wrote in. But in the instance, just in make-believe land, where we are all a biologically tied together family. What does that mean? You know, how would that reaction change?

What's a biologically? Oh, if y'all were a... Yeah, we're all the same parents to the same three children. I mean, if I've got a six-year-old who's experienced severe trauma in isolation of the other two, that's what makes this challenging is normally it's not just one kid that's experienced this in a family system right so um but hypothetically speaking i have to do what i have to do to protect my kids if i had to go as far as to get a one-bedroom apartment and let this kid settle in or go get the medication he needs or be institutionalized for a while because his violence is escalating as a six-year-old or um what most often happens is a kid is experiencing sexual trauma at an early age and it just flips the switch and that child becomes a child predator

and that child has to be removed from proximity to other kids period point blank end of story it's highly highly disruptive to entire family units if the situation arises that it only happens to one kid i haven't worked with family i'm just being honest i haven't worked with families which only happened to one kid like that it's usually everybody's in a big mess when things begin to escalate like this. So with the recommendation of – is it basically the recommendation to split the family? Or is it – like how would we navigate something like that? Like it's – because we don't have – it's not like we have a grand, like it's not like we have our parents down the road or, you know, it's not like we really have any, not necessarily easy,

but any real efficient way to do that. None of, none of what's happening is going to be efficient. Every single thing that is before you is going to be hard. And then with the, I mean, the implications of doing that type of lifestyle to help with my son, which is, I mean, I, something's got to give. Um, and I mean, I'm going to continue to work on it and everything, but you know, I mean, if it takes, if it takes everything but you know I mean if it takes if it takes him I mean however long it takes him what are the implications on the

relationship and the family as a whole with us not I mean if she had to move out of state out of state to go with her parents or something well I mean hold on number one let's get,

let's get everything in the right order because everything's getting all jumbled together. Okay. Number one, y'all aren't married. Yeah. Okay. So y'all are living together and you've put all these kids in a box together, but you have your romantic relationship,

which I could almost guarantee you is strained to some degree. Y'all would be supernatural. Maybe y'all are. It would be supernatural if y'all weren't, if it wasn't strained. And then on the other hand, I have a little boy who with every breath he takes is screaming, somebody save me because I can't.

And then I've got a five-year-old and a two-year-old who are just wide-eyed, not knowing where the next scary thing is going to come from. All of these are in one big box, but they're separate issues. And if you try to say, well, what about if I do this, then she has to move in with mom. And then if she decides as your girlfriend, I don't have enough money to move to Nashville.

Well, that's an issue that y'all need to decide about your romantic relationship. Your priority, Rob and Caitlin, I'll tell you this. Like I'd love to see you all get married and these family come together and all the kids get all the help they need and everything would be wonderful. I'd love that. Rob's number one priority right now is his son.

Period. End of story. And Rob, I know that is devastating. It's exhausting. It's financially maddening. it's unfathomably expensive you also have the trauma that his mom and whoever she paraded through the house helped create it like all of that i get it but it is this is me just loving you enough to say here's reality and caitlin your number one priority

are the five-year-old and the two-year-old your two little baby kids they have to be safe they have to have a as becky kennedy says a sturdy safe mom before y'all decided to blend families. And it almost feels like there's this, like, oh, you're drowning and I'm drowning. If we lock arms together, maybe we can float. And that's not how this is going to play. It won't play out well. I talked too much and y'all got real quiet. So what are y'all thinking?

So I know that like none of this is, nothing that we haven't been thinking, nothing that we haven't considered. It's just hard, I think, to accept it just because we did both individually fight so hard for our children, and obviously we'll continue to fight for our children and make them our number one priorities. We were just hoping to be able to do that together in the long run.

I get that. And I don't think that's out of the question. I really don't. I really don't. So with that being said, with you saying you don't think it's out of the question, I mean, what, what, uh, I mean, could you elaborate on that? I mean, I don't know. How long have y'all been together? I don't know how to go from here. Two years. Yeah, probably two years. How long have y'all lived together? A year.

Yeah, probably about 12 months. Okay. And how long has your son, six-year-old, not seen bio mom? He goes for the major holidays. He's scheduled to go visit his bio mom in about two weeks, and he'll be there for roughly eight days. Does his behavior begin to escalate in the weeks leading up to, and especially on the way back?

Yes, leading up to and on the way back, yes. This school and at home, everyone has reported that there's a pretty significant impact on his behavior. All right, so I need you as dad to hear that. Behavior is a language. You got a six-year-old body saying, please don't do this to me. And at some point,

that may mean you got to go back to court and get full custody of this kid. I have full custody, but I would have to somehow get, I mean, she would have to have supervised visitation or something like that. I mean, she already has, you know, very minimal. Then why do you put this little boy back in an unsafe situation? Yeah.

The legal hoops to jump through on that are a lot. And I'm not saying that that's not something that I should do. I know, but just look at what this little six-year-old body is trying to tell you. Yeah. And at some point, he's going to circle around and say, Dad, you saw these videos. You knew some of the stories. The child counselor told you the rest.

Why did you keep putting me back in there, man? Yeah. And that same conversation with Caitlin and her five and two year old mom, why'd you put us in this? So the, the, at the end of the day, let's look at it this way. Relationally, y'all really struggling. Y'all want it to work and I want it to work for you. Parenting. We had this vision of what this was going to how this was going to work and it's going to work great and we're going to get some stability and some safety and and that's not working and so as parents what we have to do is be the adults and back out

and say all right this plan that we wanted to work is not going to work so it's not going to be efficient it's going to be infinitely more expensive One of us may have to move and we may have to be long distance for a season. We may have to live in an apartment instead of a house. We may have to get some help. We have to move closer to family, whatever the thing is, because the goal is mom and dad have to be stable as individuals in their family context. And these kids have to be safe as individuals in their family context. And these kids have to be safe and get the care they need. And then we can start talking about blending families. Now, if this was a moody teenager, we will work through that.

This is a violent child who is clearly, and by the way, when I say violent child, I'm not saying they're the problem, but I am saying that that behavior has got to be dealt with downstream. Okay. I love this little boy. I want to hug him. Like just hearing about him, I want to hug him with all my guts. I want to hug this little boy because I can just imagine he's been through hell.

That's what's hard about it is, is when, I mean, there's a lot of things that are hard about it, but that's one of the hardest things for me as his dad is, you know, I raised him from, I mean, I, I, his mother didn't breastfeed. She didn't want to take the time or the effort. I, I fed him from day one all the way through to now. And I mean, it's really hard seeing him, you know, when he was three and even four, he hadn't really developed these issues as they didn't really come to fruition. But then now that he's, you know, he's getting older, he's forming his own thoughts. He's really, he's trying to process things. And he is one of the most loving, kind, amazing kids that anyone could imagine.

And then we have just these, you know, he'll flip and just, you know, I mean, and it's something as simple as, well, somebody didn't want to share something with me, so I push them. And it's just, but he, you know, he'll spend hours, two, three, four hours a day, not every day, but quite frequently playing with Caitlin's two-year-old. And I mean, they're like best friends. And then, you know, you know, the next day or even later that evening, he'll be like, Ooh, gross, a baby. Right. And I'm like, buddy, you just, you just gave her a kiss on the forehead and told her you loved her an hour ago. And now you're saying, Ooh, gross, the baby, I don't want you in my room. Don't touch me.

Like, I don't. It's just, it's really challenging to navigate. And the challenge for an adult often working with a young kid is taking our adult rational mind and dropping it into a body that growth-wise, hormonally, trauma-wise, and just skills. Just having the skills on how to navigate feelings that feel like jet fuel. Yeah. And he doesn't have that.

He doesn't have a model of that. And he's got a little body that is still trying to figure out where mom is because their heartbeats are connected. And that's the other tough thing, too, is with the family dynamic that we've had over the past year of living together. I mean, there's not a sentence that he says to Caitlin that doesn't include something along the lines. I mean, he calls her mom. Her kids call me dad.

I mean, he won't leave for the bus without trying to get a kiss or a hug or something. And I mean, like last night, me and him spent the night or the evening because the kids and mom were in town and we spent the evening cleaning. And he was just excited about how happy she was going to be to separate him from, or separate, basically. But then also, I'm worried about the emotional impact, not only on him, but her kids as well. And listen, all of the, I get that, totally get that. And there's no question it would be disruptive. No question about that. But what we're not dealing with in this particular moment,

what we're not dealing with is impact, emotional feelings. We're dealing with safety. And safety has to trump. It has to come over the top. And if we see escalating behaviors and unsafe behaviors, and suddenly he went from shoving a kid to closed fist, hitting a kid, went from accidentally drowning an animal to, I'm just going to drop the other one in there and see what happens. Of course, there's remorse on the other side side i don't think he's a sociopath but i think that

i think that the impact mom has had on his life his bio mom and her her demons and her handing those demons over to her son, literally. I think he needs some professional intervention ASAP. This may be as simple as, I don't say as simple as, this one will be tough. This one will be tough. But it may be as straightforward as him sitting with a child play therapist and learning some skills. Sitting with an occupational therapist and sitting with some professionals who can teach him some skills, teach you some skills. You doing the hard thing about the legal matters, he doesn't need to be around mom anymore.

If mom is not safe, if mom's home is not safe, if the men that mom brings into the home are not safe, the baby doesn't need to be there anymore. Her six-year-old doesn't need to be there anymore, period. There may be a season of separation't need to be there anymore, period. There may be a season of separation. There may be some more angst on the heels of that. We're dealing with safety here, not feelings and emotions. Safety. Once he begins to learn safety, we don't hit other people.

We don't assault other people. We don't hurt animals. We don't respond to our we don't hurt animals we don't respond to our our lack of power with violence now we're going to talk about what does it look like to blend a family a family that's experienced trauma a family that's experienced loss a family that's experienced all those things guys and I know listen um i'd hug you both if you were here i i know this is hard and like caitlin said i think this is something y'all have been

wrestling with and so my promise on the show is i'm gonna tell you the truth and i hate it for you i hate this is what i'm having to pass along and i hate the state of child psychiatric care that you can't get in and see somebody when you got a baby that's your child is hurting hurting hurting but find a counselor find a therapist ask your school counselor if they can refer you to somebody there's going to be people in the local network that your school counselor can send you to that maybe it's just a licensed marriage family therapist a counselor worker, somebody, a licensed play therapist that can teach your kids some skills. And forensically, get some info on what he's actually experienced

because my gut tells me he's been through hell. Your kids are lucky that y'all love them. I'm proud of y'all for fighting for them, but the fight's just begun. We'll be right back. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out

or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, we're back. Kelly, social media, what did I do this time? All right. Remember this.. Kelly, social media, what did I do this time? All right. Remember this, facts are your friends.

Let your emotions inform you, but don't let them rule you. There are only two things in this world that you can control, your thoughts and your actions. Know the facts, feel your feelings, then go and make the best decision from there. It's probably pretty self-explanatory, right? I think I would expound on it this way. The world has given us two paths. Either all you are is your feelings and however you feel is the most important thing. And so if somebody makes you feel sad,

they need to quit. And then if somebody's idea makes you feel hurt or sad or less than, well, that idea is bad. It's got to be ended. We got to get rid of that idea. We have a culture led by feelings. The other path we're given is feelings are for suckers. Just suck it up, snap into a Slim Jim, crush them, kill them. And that's dumb too. That's like duct taping over your car gauges because Gas lights are for wimps. Let's just drive and then your car runs out of gas. Nice going macho, right?

so I guess that for me is proposing a new third way, which is Dude feelings are real and if you wake up and you feel like your wife just dissed you, that's a real feeling. That's a real thing. You're not a coward or a wimp. What happens next defines character. So did she really, or she just race and go to the bathroom when you got up this morning and your wife didn't put, make the coffee like she usually does. Is she really going to leave you? Is it because she's cheating on you?

Is it because she hates you? Is it because she's trying to show you up? Or maybe, dude, she was up all night with the rocket diarrhea and coffee is the last thing on her mind, right? And vice versa. Did he leave the towel on the floor because he hates you and he's inconsiderate? He never thinks about anybody other than...

Or maybe he's so stressed out at work and he's... You see what I'm saying? Feelings are important. Thoughts are important. I get to choose which story I make up. And then most importantly, what am I going to do next? Am I going to move forward with compassion? Am I going to act like a baby? What am I going to do next? Take the new third way, which is feel my feelings and then make the next right choice. I like that. Ta-da. Good job, social media. Way to go, John. Thanks, Kelly. I do that, by the way. I compliment myself in your voice and I'm like, thanks, because I'll never get it in real life. Love you guys.

Stay in school. Don't do drugs. Bye.