The Dr. John Delony Show - My Sister Married a Man in Prison for Murder

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

On today’s episode, we hear about: ·      A woman wondering how to have a difficult conversation with her sister ·      A husband fighting to save his marriage after his wife’s confession ·      A wife struggling to convince her husband to get help for ongoing depression Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test  📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future  ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭 John's Free Guided Meditation  🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: 🌱 Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. 🔴 Get 15% off with code DELONY at Bon Charge. 🌿 Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.  🔒 Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe. 😇 Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial. 💤 Visit Helix Sleep for special offers! 🥤 Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi.  💪 Get 25% off your order at Thorne.  🏋️ Go to Trainwell to get started! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights   🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I don't think that's the actual issue. I hope not. Can I tell you what I think the actual issue is and you can tell me if I'm wrong? Yo, yo, yo, what's up? This is Jon with the Dr. Jon Delaney show. So grateful that you've joined us. The greatest relationships and mental and emotional health show ever. That's not true by a long shot, but if you just keep saying it, I'm telling you, if you just keep saying it, it evidently, it all just becomes true. It doesn't even have to be true anymore. So glad that you were with us for more than two decades. I've been sitting with hurting people, trying to figure out what's the next right move or

help them figure out what's the next right move. And if that sounds like something you want to be a part of, you want to sit down with me and we can figure out what's the next thing, next thing to do in your world, give me a buzz. 1-844-693-3291 or go to johndeloney.com slash ask ASK. I see you all in the booth laughing at me. Am I doing something? What did I do wrong? No.

You're good. You're good. What's what I do? Your shirt just has an image on it. It's boobs. Your shirt has boobs. No, it's Milo. It's his eyes.

It looks like I have low bosoms. Well, you're making me self-conscious now. I love this band. I love the descendants. They're the best. Now I'm going to be all weirded out for the rest of the things guys. I've got four nipples today on the show. I just got to Morgantown, West Virginia and talk to Gail.

Hey Gail, what's up? Hi Dr. Ron. So I just have a, I have a confrontation, I guess you would call it that I need to have with my sister. Yeah, yeah. And now, and I don't know how to go about this conversation. Just in general, I just don't know how to go about this conversation just in general I just don't do well with

Confrontation excellent. All right, bring it on. What's the confrontation? So, okay. I wrote this out. I'll read this to you just a little bit My sister recently met and married a man serving a life sentence for first-degree murder. She met him while he was incarcerated Where is like is that like a special swipe right account? How do you do that? for first degree murder. She met him while he was incarcerated. Where? Is that like a special swipe right account? How do you do that? No, he's like locally incarcerated from our area. And I guess they just knew somebody mutually

and her friend set her up with him. That is a ride or die friend right there. Yeah, really, I know. So they're married? They are married now. She kept their entire relationship a secret until she just texted me a picture of her wedding band and told me that she got married. And she hadn't even mentioned at first that he was in prison.

So just the fact that she got married and I didn't even know that she was in a relationship was shocking. And then she told me that he also was in prison and it's just no ball for there because there are a lot of other just terrible details. I'm going to have a job forever because people keep making choices like this. Good gosh. So his, his, um, he was sentenced to, um, life in prison for first degree murder, which he confessed to

during the second trial the first time the jury found him guilty that was dismissed and then the second time instead of going to trial again, he chose to confess and take a plea deal and this is also the second time he has served a sentence prison and his first sentence was for attempted first degree murder and first sentence was for attempted first degree murder. And of course, you know, he says that he's innocent. My sister believes that twice almost back to back he was, has been wrongfully convicted. And she- As all new wives believe. I know, I know. And she just cannot be persuaded otherwise. And so anyway, he's up for parole soon. And- There's no chance.

That's what I thought too. There's no chance. But chance adamant that she thinks that that he has a chance then gail I'm holding holding holding has she ever been right? Very true. She she's never been right since you've known her. She hasn't been right Right about anything Yeah, that's part of the problem. honestly, is that the judgment is wrong. If he's doing a life sentence for Murder One on the back end of another sentence for attempted Murder One, he's not going to get paroled, unless he's in California. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's my thoughts too. And of course, she's adamant that she says, um, you know, well his lawyer has new information Which is what I tell her I said, i'm sure he's telling you that but I just don't think that that's true Well, i've seen matlock enough to know that Probably not probably not. All right, so let's pretend though He gets out on parole, right? Yes, exactly. So that's the conversation. I guess right now it's easy to just kind of pretend like it's not happening. No, no, no, no.

Your sister's pretending. You can live in real world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at least for us, the main issue is, you know, my husband and I, we have three really young children. They're all under five and they all love my sister so much and they, we see her a lot and we talk to her a lot they have no idea of course any of this is going on but if she if he gets out of prison and they are living their life together I feel like I'm gonna we're gonna have to have a conversation to say like we don't want him in our lives or around the children at least at the very least. Why? Because of a little murder? Jeez. Yeah, really. I actually, I don't think that's the actual issue. Yeah. Can I tell you what I think the actual issue is? And you can tell

me if I'm wrong. Yeah. I think the actual issue is they don't know her. They love the whirling dervish that is their aunt that sweeps into their life and buys them a bunch of cool stuff and acts all bananas and they think it's hilarious and fun and you and husband have to keep the rules and then she wisps away and the excitement for a kid, what would you say, five, four and three or something like that? They're like five, three and seven months. Good God, your house by the way. I know, it's crazy.

So yeah, you have like a live, like multiple live chainsaws going in your living room, right at any given moment. So they love the, ah! And then it's like a roller coaster, it's fun. Yeah. You can't live there. I think the bigger issue here is very soon,

they'll begin to know her. Yes, exactly. And you're gonna have to have this confrontation. The guy's not getting out of jail, he's just not. But you're gonna have to have this conversation when it turns into, hey, I want the kids to come stay with me for a month. Or why don't you all go out of town

and I'll come stay with them. And you're like, yeah, no. I think that's the confrontation that's coming That's true. That's very true And my husband kind of thinks more that way too because it's like if she's making these types of judgment calls in this area For life what other types of judgment calls we already kind of we've never let the kids stay alone with her Just before this has happened. She just hasn't made the best judgment calls, you know? Right. So yeah, that actually does come up a lot where she even like on Valentine's Day, she

said, why don't you guys go out and I'll watch the kids. And I was like, we're just going to take the kids with us. We want tonight to be extra hot. So we're taking all three of them. Yeah. Because I just, yeah, I have been just avoiding having a difficult conversation. So I always just come up with excuses like that. Like, we're just gonna take the kids with us, you know? And so can I say this? My guess is, and this is the compassionate side of me,

your sister's had a rough go of it, hasn't she? She has, yeah. We had a rough childhood and then she has had a rough, she was became a childhood and she was a teen mom and she's always been a single mom. She's had her struggles. So she's had her struggles. I can guarantee you she can feel it a mile away when someone's not being honest with her.

Yeah, that's true. And also, my guest, tell me if I'm wrong, I could be way out to lunch here. She does not handle direct, honest interactions very well, does she? Yeah, no, she doesn't because she thinks that, specifically, we are Christians and my sister is not, and she specifically says that I'm judgmental and I think I'm holier than thou and it just always anytime I say anything to question her decisions which you know she makes a lot of she has previously made a lot of bad decisions it just turned into a fight about that you know yeah yelling at somebody and calling them judgmental when a they're putting up a

boundary or they're calling out unsafe actions right somebody says so forget the right or wrong right forget that she probably makes choices I'm just gonna guess like go out on a limb here like like marrying a murderer she makes choices that are inherently unsafe right yeah? And when you say something, it's easy to defend herself by just calling you the bad guy. So I don't blame her for that. I get it. I understand it. It's hard to hear someone who loves you saying, hey, if you drink like that, or you snored

that or you sleep with that, like you're going to have problems, right? It's easy just to throw grenades. ignored that or you sleep with that, like you're going to have problems, right? It's easy just to throw grenades. So I think for you, the hard part is I love my sister and I have a duty to my kids. Yeah. I love my sister and I have a responsibility towards my marriage. Yeah. And those may not intermingle much.

Yes. Yes, I know. Yeah, that's very much true. And I don't know if it maybe it just feels like it's coming to a head because this situation is just very like acute, I guess, but it's kind of just, it's just an overall problem, you know, with our relationship with her. At some point, you're gonna have to sit down and have the hard conversation and it's gonna be best. I like the way my friend Jefferson Fisher frames it like you have to have a goal for the conversation. And if your goal is I need to say all the things I need to say that you're gonna leave in

completely disconnected. Okay. If you, so I want you to spend some time actually deciding what is the goal of this confrontation I need to have. If it is to say I'm never gonna leave my kids with you, I just struggle to trust you, you just married a murderer. Yeah. I struggle to trust you and I struggle to trust you with the safety of our kids. I do love you around them, but we're going to be there. Right. Right. And dude, the whirling dervish of middle fingers and like the way she'll talk about you and how dare you and who you think you are. I mean, you can stand in the middle of that storm

because you're anchored into the end dude reality. Yeah. Yeah. But you got to ask yourself, what's the point of the conversation? Is it to give her a lifeline? Like, hey, but you gotta ask yourself what's the point of the conversation is it to give her a lifeline like Hey when this thing burns to the ground will still be here I mean I you gotta ask yourself what that goal is if you go into the Confrontation without a goal it's gonna it's gonna know one's gonna be happy because you're gonna start searching for a feeling Yeah, and you'll never get that you'll never get that feeling Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just I think right now where her feelings are so strong about the situation with, you know, her husband, I feel like everything always circles back to that.

And so I would think like if I had a conversation and try to keep it broad and general, that it would circle back to that. And then I feel like it would almost be like she would give me an ultimatum. Like, you know, she gets gets to do that she gets to do that yeah I'm just afraid that she will just be like I don't have no contact like she will just say well if you don't want him then you don't get me or so what's your alternative to put your kids in an unsafe situation that's true there's no solution no I mean there is a solution but you want to have it all and you can't yeah that's true. There's no solution. No, I mean there is a solution, but you want to have it all and you can't. Yeah, that's true.

You want to have a sister who's clearly been struggling for a long time who just made a wild life decision not hate you or not cut you off because you probably feel like you're the only light in her life and your kids are the only light in their life. And you see your kids dying laughing when she's around, because she's probably pretty remarkable with your kids. Yeah, yeah. They really love her so much. She's chaos and fun, and she's exactly what an aunt should be.

Right? Yeah, yeah. My sister goes by the name Tia Loka. I think my, I don't even know if my kids know, they do know her name, but they've never called her that Yeah, but she also is like super responsible and she's a funny hilarious like Everything's on fire when she comes in the house, which is exactly what you want with an aunt, right? That's what you want Yeah, yeah, and also

She's not married to a murderer Yeah, yeah, that's that's very true. You know what I mean? Yeah, and like you said, right now, they just see her as the fun aunt, but especially my five-year-old in a couple of years, I mean, she's gonna, yeah, really just, I don't know, she's gonna learn more about her than just like, you know, the fun side.

Well, she'll learn like when I'm gonna come, I'm coming for your birthday, I'm coming for your birthday, and she doesn't show up. Or I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna be there, I'm coming for your birthday and she doesn't show up. Or I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna be there and she doesn't show up. That's when they'll begin to learn. Yeah, yeah. And so you're gonna have to sit in the heartbreak

that all parents have to sit in with their kids when they learn that not everybody tells the truth. Not everybody has, some people have struggles and it's heartbreaking. Right, right. My sister, she has always shown up. I think it's a matter of like, if we like would allow her to show up

depending on what state she's in. So I think I'm worried too that it's gonna come back but like the kids are to maybe be resentful of us if we become the no contact situation. Even though it wasn't like we made it that way. Yeah, I would just tell you who cares. Yeah, that's true. My kids get resentful, especially my younger one when I turn the TV off.

My younger one gets resentful when I don't let them eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yeah. That's just kind of what they do because they're kids. They don't let them eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yeah. That's just kind of what they do because they're kids. They don't get a vote. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then when they get older, they're going to be really grateful that mom and dad stood

in the gap when they were children and kept them safe to the best of their abilities. And I mean, just imagine the alternative. The other conversation. Exactly. Hey, mom, why did you keep letting aunt so-and-so come over when you knew she was going to sneak alcohol in here and she was going to leave us with murder boyfriend or murder husband? Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to let go and it's going to be hard.

Let go your responsibility for keeping your sister in check or in line. And you're going to have to recognize, I can't keep her in check and in line. No matter how much I love her, how much I try to coach her, no matter how much I try to quote unquote, model the right, like a peaceful way of doing life, she's going to go marry a murderer. She's going to go do her thing. And let's say the 0.0001% chance this guy gets out on parole. Good great grand.

He's not coming around my kids. And by the way, I've met people who got out on parole. They're almost always super clear eyed. Like, yeah, of course, I understand that you want some space between me and your kids. That's not a problem. I'm not going to come over for Thanksgiving. I get it. I totally get it. Totally get it. And I want to honor the temperature of your household. I'm not going to show up there. So yeah, I would love her the best I can. And when you think confrontation is coming, then be super clear and have a goal for the meeting.

But I think before any of that goes on you need to exhale and just be sad for a little bit because I wish everyone could have an aunt like my sister. Everyone I wish and you don't have that. I'm sorry. That breaks my heart for you. Thanks for the call my friend. We'll be right back. Alright, let's talk about cozy earth. In my house, I would prefer to go to sleep somewhere just south of the Arctic Circle. I like it cold. My wife, on the other hand, she would prefer to sleep on the surface of the sun.

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All right, we are back. Hey, take one second for me, please. And subscribe to the show. If you're watching this on YouTube or go to the podcast and like it or download it or do the reviews with all the stars, all the stars makes such a huge difference for us. Thank you so much. Let's go out to Mitch in Chicago. What's up? What's up, Mitch? with all the stars all the stars makes such a huge difference for us thank you so much let's go out to Mitch in Chicago what's up what's up Mitch yeah I called in I've been having a little bit of trouble with my with my wife and I was

looking to try and get a little bit of advice yeah man what's going on? So my wife works as a nurse at a large hospital and I work from home in a tech company and some of her interests have kind of changed. She came home and kind of let me know that she had interest towards a coworker and kind of cause a little bit of a tough between us. And then I found out she was hanging out with some of her male doctors at their house. And she said that she was actually hanging out with some of her other coworkers who were different in a more social scene. So I've just been trying to kind of work through that and get on the same page and see what's

going on. I was kind of wondering what your thoughts and opinions were. I mean, I guess my first thing is my first gut reaction. And again, this one's a little more challenging because you're not sitting in front of me. I can't see you. But it feels like one of two things. One you don't fully want to metabolize the seriousness of this, or you've just come up with some safer, more generic, unflavored oatmeal language to describe the fact that your wife is having an affair.

She's cheating on you. Which one of those is true? Is one of it just nervous you're on the show and you don't want to fully dive in or is it hit differently when you're like, no, my wife's having an affair. She's cheating on me and I think my life as I knew it is now over and different now. Um, I think I'm just trying to come to the sense of reality of it. There you go. Okay.

That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, your whole world got blown up. How long have you been married? We've been together for 12 years now and we got married a little bit before COVID. Okay, so just y'all been married for five years? Yes, sir. Ish. Okay.

My gut tells me this didn't just start. How long has she had one foot out of the boat of this marriage? I kind of just started to find out about this towards the middle of end of last year. Okay. Was it a shock to you or did you go, I knew it? I was a little frustrated to stay the least Yeah, that's not that's not what I asked. All right. Were you stunned by this? Did it catch you completely off guard or did it confirm some fears you've had for a while?

Yeah, definitely. I didn't know where this came from. Okay. Did she ever cheat on you and you're dating you'll did for seven years, huh? Yes, and no, she did not cheat on me during that time that I know. Okay. Um, yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess the, the bigger questions are, what are you, what are you going to do now? What do you want to do? It's a good question. Um, we're trying to go to therapy at the moment to try and get an understanding.

She indicated that she didn't cheat on me. She needed a father figure or another person who's more of a superiority individual to like talk about stuff with, because what she does as a nurse is very traumatic. She works in an OR room. They may do a lot of, you know, they are saving life and death, I guess. And I don't know, she just kind of indicated that she never really cheated on me. She went to somebody else. It was more like an emotional type thing. I don't know if that helped to provide any context, but I don't buy it. Yeah. At all. Um, yeah. At all. You go to lunch with an emotional affair.

You send inappropriate texts with an emotional affair. You over disclose that person becomes your safe place and you begin dreaming about life with them as opposed to the person you're with. You don't go to their house over and over and over again. Yeah. Dude, I've been in those rooms and I'm not in those rooms. I've never been in those rooms day in and day out, minute after minute, hour after hour.

She's exactly right. It's a traumatic job. It's hard. And you go talk to with those, about those challenges with a counselor. You go talk about those challenges with a group. You tell you, her husband, hey, I'm struggling carrying the weight of this thing,

I need to go talk to somebody. You don't sneak around for a year going over to, you know what I mean? And that like forget going over to the doctor and surgeon's houses. She told you she's got feelings for somebody else. I mean, am I wrong? No, okay So what are y'all going to therapy for because I because you can go with two different with two different Mindsets here if you're going to Understand what happened? If you're going to

Just poke around in the drawers this will happen again, this will happen again, this will happen again. If you're going to save your marriage, then you'll have a different track to take. Do you know what I'm saying? Okay. Because she's still going to work in the same place with these same people, right? work in the same place with these same people, right? The individual no longer works there, is what she told me after some time. Yeah, but I don't trust her as far as I can see her. Does she show you her text every day

and have her location turned on? She actually turned her location off and said it was overarching and overpowering. Yet she wants a father figure. Yeah. I'm sorry, man. Yeah, that sucks. Yeah. You love this woman, huh?

Yes, sir. You all have kids? No. Okay. My associate producer of the show let me know that she never even changed her name on her driver's license. Is that right? Eventually, she did after some time. How long?

But it took a while. How many years? Three. Okay. So just from the outside looking in, man, it sounds like somebody who, for whatever reason, it took you all the better part of a decade to even get married. And even after that, she didn't want to give up her independence or her way of navigating the world.

And maybe she didn't mind writing co-pilot or her driving and you writing co-pilot, but she wasn't going to become one with the person she married. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt. Let's say she's exactly right. She never slept with anybody. High five. But she doesn't trust you enough to say I'm struggling. She doesn't honor you enough when you say when she says, Hey, I've got a feeling for somebody else and you say, Okay, let's rebuild trust. And she's like, No, no, no, no, I can't rebuild trust like that. Like you need it.

Like let me see your texts and let me know where you are. Because you're telling me you're going over these guys houses late at night. And she says, Whoa, slow down. That's too much. I mean, if behavior is a language, she's telling you, I want you there. I want you at home working the IT job so I can know that direct deposit is going to keep happening. But I want to go live my life. I want to deal with my stuff the way I want to deal with it. I want to involve other men in our in our circle of emotional and physical trust and You just have a grown-up decision to make my brother

Yeah And I hate I know I hate that we we do split everything which is You know nice and have separate bank accounts and things. No, that's terrible That's terrible That means y'all are roommates, dude. And I say terrible, like, not as a judgment call, but as like, you can't make your marriage work that way. I mean, you have split emotions, you have split physical lives, you have split financial lives. It sounds like the only thing that's different is y'all went and got a government stamp on a piece of paper, but your lives are still as though you're dating. Thanks to that.

Does that make sense? Yeah. I guess the only the path you got moving forward brother is to truly honestly and as painfully as this would be, write down the questions you actually have. Not the hem haw, not the like put your head down and she just kind of tells these tales about I'm struggling and then this and then I had to go over their house over and over and over again. And then you say, will you go over there anymore? How dare you ask that? It's too much. It's just too overbearing.

You need to write down the questions you actually want to know the answers to. And then you're going to have to ask yourself, A, do I trust this person? B, do I want to stay married to this person? And C, what must be true for me to remain married. And no one can really make that decision for you. Right. I can just tell you if I was to switch places with you, I would it'd be real real real

thin ice. Yeah, I understand that. Do you feel like you got the full story? I feel like there might be a few areas of the painting that still needs to be drawn out. Yeah. But it's mostly there. Okay. Well, I can't make, I can't, I mean, I can't tell you what to do next, brother. All I can do is just say from the outside looking in, you're right to feel completely bewildered

because the actions of both of you aren't the actions of a married couple. It's gonna be ride or, till the wheels fall off. It's going to be standing there at the castle gates, like just saying, bring it on world. It's, it's, it's us too. Versus y'all. Um, your marriage is, is built on, we have two different lives that we just happen to share a house and a marriage certificate. That's what we all run it to. You can run it that way.

The data tells me it's not me it's not going to work. And I think a lot of people race off to marriage counseling after there's some sort of infidelity and they just want to talk about it and talk about it and talk about it. And maybe you don't even know if you want to save this marriage. You want to find out some more information. You want to get to the bottom of some stuff, but it's going to always land on what you need to feel like I can re-establish and she can re-earn my trust and what things are we going to do differently so that we create a life where one plus one equals one and that's the choice you're gonna have to make man and again if it's me all the notifications are turned on

Probably she's getting another job. She's working at a different hospital She's committing to letting you know I'm struggling in these areas and so I'm gonna go talk to this professional or this person and I'm not going other over to other Rockstar surgeons and doctors houses late at night and lying to you about it. I'm not going to continue working with people that I've got that I'm going to have a relationship with, an intimate or romantic relationship with, that I have feelings for if you will. We're going to share finances. All those things like men, you're going to have to do a bunch of different stuff

that y'all haven't done in what? 10, 12 years of being together and you don't have to build a completely new marriage. And you just, it's going to start with you asking yourself, do I still want to do that? And then asking her, do you want in on that? And that's two big question marks in my mind. And then from there, man, I believe y'all can build whatever you want to build. I just have a belief in people and redemption. I have a belief in people. If they've chosen a miserable life, they could choose an amazing one. But it all comes down to that choice. And both of you have to have both feet in the boat. Both of you have to be all the way in. Thanks for

the call, my brother. Call any time. And I'd love for her to reach out too, man. I'd love to hear her side of the story, but you have some hard questions to ask moving forward. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, so I was born and raised in Texas, and I love, love the myth of the lone cowboy. You know, the guy who doesn't need anyone or anything, he's got a mustache and he solves all his problems by himself. It's a great fun story. And it's a lie.

In a society that's obsessed with your diet and your workout routine and your job and your everything else, it's easy to forget that no one can do life alone. And I don't care whether you're introverted or extroverted or whatever internet-based relationship style you want to give yourself. I don't care about any of that. We all have to have a community and a support system to do life with. Listen, it's time to shift the focus

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short online survey and you'll get matched with the licensed therapist. If it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. This month, start to build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's a BetterHelp. H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney. All right, we are back. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button. I just got to Indianapolis, Indiana and talked to J-I-L-L. What's up, Jill? Hi, thanks for taking my call. Of course. Thanks for calling in. What's going on in your world? Well, I think I know the answer to this, but the question that I have is how could I get

my husband to prioritize his mental health when I'm at my breaking point? I'm at my breaking point I'm sorry How long have you been this close to the edge I I think that I have been at my breaking point for like five years and I feel like recently I broke. What broke it? Well, I think what really did it was my husband and I have, he's kind of always been in this like low grade depression for a really long time and it caused a lot of damage to,

or a lot of hardship for our marriage. So we went to a, like a marriage retreat thing and it went really, really well. and he was great for about six weeks. And then, then it just went back to how it was. And I think that is really what broke me. Yeah. Finally. You believed one more time, huh? Yeah.

Do you have little ones? Yes. How old? 11, 9 and 6. Oh man. So they're not little, little, but. But they're in prime absorption, like they're able to absorb and see, right? Yeah.

So I guess my question for you is what do you want to be different? I want him to be happy. He's not my first love, but he was my best friend and I miss my friend a lot. And I've tried, like I've had other friends, um, and they're not him. Like he's the one that I want and he's, he's not there. Um, I married him because I knew that he would never ever leave me. And it never really occurred to me that he And it never really occurred to me that he would leave mentally and stay here physically, which might actually be worse. Did it ever occur to you that he could feel the fact that you never fully loved him?

I fully loved him. Okay. But you married him out of loyalty, not out of, I want to build a life with you. No, I definitely wanted to build a life with him. He was a person who I knew that I could build a life with. Definitely that, like he was not the first love. The first love was a teenage thing. It was definitely very... Teenagey, that's cool. It has had a lot of impact on our relationship in large part.

Specifically because when we were a couple years into our marriage, this first guy who basically ghosted me called me out of the blue and I was like, what? And so I talked to him and it caused huge upset in our relationship. I was 21, I think, when this happened. I got married very young. When you say you talked to him, I've learned that that means different things

to different generations of people. I talked to him on the phone that night for a couple hours and just was like, what happened? Oh, so you didn't like talk to him, like go hook back up with him? No. Okay. And why did this phone call disrupt your husband's equilibrium so bad? So it wasn't the phone call itself, it was me. It was we were not doing great in our marriage already at the time. We've always kind of struggled. In large part, I think because my husband hasn't ever actually fully trusted me,

but I didn't know that until after we got married. But so basically I, all of those, like what happened with this, this first boyfriend, we'll call him, he, um, he kind of just disappeared out of my life, like in the middle of the, like, infatuation in love period of the relationship. But you're 18 though, right? Yes. Okay, how old are you now? 34.

Yeah, let's stop talking about a high school boyfriend. Like both him and him and yeah, and husband. Like if your husband's still bringing this up then yeah, he's got some pretty significant challenges. What is significant is that I was trying to talk to my husband about like basically I was confused like This is bringing up a lot of old feelings. We're not in a good place This is bringing up a lot of old feelings. We're not in a good place.

And I was trying to talk to him and I think what I was trying to do really was communicate like I'm confused. I'm kind of scared. Like I don't, I don't know what's going on. But what I said to him and what he heard was, he said, are you in love with him still? And I said, yes. And he said, do you love me? And he said, are you in love with me? And I said, I don't know. And that is the thing that was so extremely damaging.

It's not about the boyfriend. It's about- Okay, but that was when you were 21 years old, 15 years ago. Yep, yep. That's true. The things I said 15 years ago, the things I said seven years ago,

God help me, you know what I mean? Yep. The thing is, is y'all chose to stay together. You chose to work on it. You chose to make humans. Y'all have made three humans, right? Yep. So I guess at the end of the day, if that's still a thing floating around

that when you were 21, you admitted to your brand new husband that you still had feelings for a high school boyfriend and you were confused because a lot of people get married and they think it's supposed to like magically make all old flames go away. Doesn't right? And they think I'm going to get married and it's going to magically be magic and it's just super not right. Like so all I have to say is I don't know anybody who gets married at 21 that doesn't

say dumb stuff. I don't know anyone who gets married at 31 who doesn't say things that 10 years later, like, woof, I wish I could have that one. Yeah. Yeah. And so here's the deal. I fully agree. We're here right now. Let me ask you, what do you want? When I asked you that question, the first thing you said is, I want my husband to be happy. What do you want? I want to be happy.

Oh, there you go. What does that mean? Paint me a picture of that. I want to know that I am valued in my home and in my life. But you don't value you, Jill. You're still heartbroken about a dumb thing you said when you were 21 years old. You think that the reason he doesn't talk to you is something is wrong with you. That's the thing that I'm told.

I know, but you believe it. I know that his stuff is not my fault. He has reacted to a lot of things and I feel like in an effort to be fair to him, it is important for me to be transparent with what I actually did do to cause him damage, but I did not cause his stuff. His dad left him when he was six. And I think that all of his stuff stems from that. But he doesn't really acknowledge that that's still a problem that he's never worked through. that that's still a problem that he's never worked through. I'm gonna go one step further.

Yes, that happened. Yes, you broke his heart when you said you still had feelings for another guy 15 years ago. He continues to struggle because he hasn't chosen to change his life. And now y'all have gotten in that weird figure eight infinity loop dance that is you show up feeling less than in your own house and you tiptoe around your own house and you tiptoe around your own kids.

And then he knows people are tiptoeing around him and then he chooses to not do anything to bridge that gap or his body shuts him down, whatever. And it just gets in this and then you are reaching for ghosts and this guy that was never going to leave you but he's left you like you said perfectly. He left you but he never left. And somebody has to stop that dance and sometimes it is here is the deal here's the life I'm looking for you have left me in our own home or a better way to say that a more connecting way to say that is I feel like you have left this

marriage you just haven't left our home you haven't left our bed do you want to stay married to me because if you want to stay married to me? Because if you want to stay married to me, here's what must be true. And I would like to be married to you. What must be true for you to want to stay married to me? And y'all got to put that that on the table. I think right now my hang up is that we're about to our 15th anniversary and for 14 years I have always been the one bringing up the things that need to be talked about and pushing for the connection and pushing to resolve things and... So Jill, what's your alternative?

Because now you're keeping score. When you start score keeping, that's somebody hovering over the ash of resentment. That's contempt. That's one of the Gottman's Four Horsemen of the end of a marriage. I've been doing so much you've been doing nothing but being a net drain on this relationship and suddenly you find yourself going up a ladder and you're looking down upon him. I've been doing this. I've been doing this 15 years. I'm out. down upon him. I've been doing this. I've been doing this 15 years. I'm out. I mean, that is essentially where I am. I'm not, I'm just, I'm trying to be

peaceful. Like that's basically what I'm trying to do now, but I'm not bringing up the things that need to be talked about because I'm exhausted. I get that. So are you going to leave? No. Okay, so you're going to stay? Yes. You're never going to leave? No. Okay.

If you're going to make that choice that I'm going to stay, then that frames what your next move is. If there is a or else line you're drawing, this has to change or else I'm going to go live my life because this isn't a marriage of fidelity. He's choosing to opt out of the marriage. And maybe he didn't sleep with somebody or he's not opting out with work, but he's opting out by choosing to not engage.

If there's not an or else line you're going to draw, then you have to do one of two things. Make peace with the way it is and begin to live your life. If you don't want to go dancing with me, fine. I'm going to go take dance lessons because I want to dance. I have done a lot of that. It's just lonely. It's just lonely. It's so lonely. But I guess what I'm trying to get you to see is the prison you're in is locked on the

inside. And there's not a move you make without consequence. If you bring it up yet again, you're going to be mad at yourself because you swore yourself last time, I'm not bringing this up anymore I'm gonna he has to start doing it And like the old dr. Phil line Like do you want to be right or you want to be married? So I bring it up one last time

Or Letting him know I'm not bringing this up anymore. I'm tired to bring it up one last time. Or letting him know, I'm not bringing this up anymore. I'm tired of being lonely. So I'm going to go find some friends and we're going to go do life. I'd love for you to join me. My bigger concern right now is your three kids are absorbing this is what marriage is. This is what marriage is. This is what people look like. This is what love looks like. This is what love looks like.

This is what husbands who go to the ends of the earth for their wives look like. This is what, and instead they're getting like, this is what it feels like when mom gives up. This is what it feels like when dad quits. And peace, keeping the peace in a household feels like electricity for a child. They feel it And I hope you hear me not dumping all of this back on you, I just want you to hold you're the only one Your husband clearly doesn't want to make another move

He kind of likes the way his life is he used to do whatever he wants thinks how he wants he doesn't have any responsibilities and the life just keeps going on. And also I bet he's miserable in his own skin. Is that fair? Yes. Okay. I mean, you said it when you called, you knew my answer. There's nothing you can do. You can't, there's not a thing you haven't said. Other than maybe I love you till the end of time and I'm never going to leave you. And the day you want to start having joy in your life, I'll be right here. But what I want you to do, if that's your decision, I want you to make peace with it because right now you're at war in your own body.

Yeah. I think the biggest thing that is at war at the moment is this is the first year ever in my life when leaving came up as an actual thing that I wanted. Um, how'd it go? I mean, when you brought it up, did you put it on the table and tell him that you're considering leaving? No. Okay.

Can I tell you, he knows he can feel it. He knows. Okay. So the thing is I wasn't considering leaving. I want to. I do want to, but I won't. And if he doesn't know that about me after 17 years, I don't... I'm at...

Like, I'm at the... I feel like I've fallen off the rope. I'm not even at the end of the rope anymore. I've fallen off the rope as to how to, how to get him to believe me that my loyalty has nothing to do with how I feel. And that's a comfort to me. That would be a comfort to me. Yeah, but you're not just... You're not underwater in depression when your feelings weigh so heavy that they are immobilizing. I guess maybe not as bad as him. Are you scared to hurt this guy?

I feel like the only reason why I'm not immobilized, why I can't, why I don't come home and be catatonic some days like he does is because I don't have that luxury. That's right, that's right. And I hear this from mothers all over the country. When people are like, how'd you do it? And you're like, I have to. Like there's no way to explain it. I've got three kids who have to eat.

And to quote Henry Cloud, what your husband needs is some problems. He needs to know his laundry is just not going to magically appear, that his kids don't just magically come home and have every one of their needs taken care of while he sits there and just veges out. Maybe that your husband needs some problems that aren't just in his head, but that are in reality. So he'll stand up on his own two feet

and begin to get his feet underneath him. It's a decade and a half, something's gotta change. And if nothing changes, nothing's gonna change. But I can't stress this enough, you gotta go find a therapist in your local area and sit down and talk to somebody. Because I think your trend line is not great either. But the prison you're in is locked from the inside

and I want you to turn the key, and I know it's scary out there, but I want you to turn the key and take a step out. Just confront that reality. Go get them. We'll be right back. All right, let's talk about Hallow, the number one prayer and meditation app in the world.

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for three months for free. All right, we're back. We got a money and marriage question. Let it rip. Yeah, so this one is how can I be more intentional about adding more fun and lightness into our marriage? Oh, dude Man, I love that question one of the things that every marriage researcher talks about Esther Perel the government's everybody talks about is we have such a Roi'd work centric world

that we do every action we take has to have a benefit to it. We exercise so we can, we do this so we can. I even talk about it, like I work out now so that when I'm 90 I can roll around with my grandkids. Everything is so ROI oriented. And dude, we have sucked the joy out of being alive. Fun, just fun.

We've lost fun. So what are some ways to, like in couples all over the country, they reach out, dude, they've recognized this. Our house functions so well. Our finances are getting back on track. We put sex on the calendar. We have it 2.1 times a week. All the things. Dude, we don't have any fun in our house. We just don't have any fun. So,

the only word I can give you is practice. And I know it sounds dumb to practice fun, but you gotta practice fun. What does that mean? Sometimes, let the kids stay up too late, sometimes fill up a bucket of water balloons and just drill your kids when they get off the bus. Just unload on them, you and your spouse. Sometimes the dinner's halfway being done and you're like, I don't wanna eat this tonight. Just order pizza.

Sometimes turn all the music up on Spotify as loud as it will go and just have a dance off. Sometimes play spin the bottle with your husband or wife. That might not even be fun. Play truth or dare. The John Delaney erotic envelope system. Just come up with five things you want to try, five things they want to try, and then

you just agree to pull one up and you won't judge what's on that card. You're just going to be curious about it. Even if you don't even understand the physics and geometry of whatever they put on that. I don't know how this is physically possible to try, but I'm only here about it. Choose curiosity, choose fun, and inject some things in there. In my house, here's some things we've done. My wife, her dream, her dream is to be in bed by nine o'clock every night. Like just dream. And she hears the next morning when I'm talking about how hilarious a comedian was.

So last year she put on the calendar, I'm going to go to this many live comedy shows, John, you curate it for me. And she knows, I know the kind of humor she likes and I especially know the kind of humor she doesn't like, so I curated them specifically. But when somebody was coming to town, I was like, you gotta go to this one. And dude, we laughed our heads off. She put on the calendar, I will go to some concerts. That means I'm gonna be out till midnight or 1 a.m.

And dude, we went and hung out with the Avett brothers, we went and hung out with Frank Turner, we went and hung out with some of our heroes, and it was awesome. And on the other side, I committed, I'm gonna, on certain nights, I'm gonna go to bed at 9.30. I'm just gonna go to bed early. And then lo and behold, I sleep all night.

I wake up feeling like a million bucks. The mornings are full of laughter instead of me being all grumpy and mainline coffee. Like it's just a, whew. We have a wrestling mat in our living room so me and my daughter can just literally go Karate Kid 3 as often as we can. My son and I are always making jokes, making jokes. So it's just a choice to, I'm going to release my grip a little bit on routine, release my

grip a little bit on everything's got to be tucked in, release my grip on, my hair's got to be just perfect. And instead I'm going to focus on laughter, fun, play, joy and whatever that means to your house Knock your lights out It might even mean when your kids play a Minecraft that you go in the other room and log in on a separate account And you just attack right? I don't know what that means in your house, but let it can you attack somebody on a roblox? I don't even I

Don't know. I'm not meant to yes things on it Yeah, the two nerds in the booth were like, absolutely. I don't know. I mean, that'd be funny if your dad suddenly had a secret Fortnite account and like attacked you. Oh, that'd be fantastic. Yeah. And then it's like, by the way, like stop wearing my underwear. I don't know. Like something you'd funny to say to your kid. I don't know. I guess if your kids were in your underwear, you got other issues, but yeah, I don't know. It literally is a mind shift that yes, routine is great and going to bed about the same time

every night is good. And also good God, order a pizza and stay up too late dancing. Here's one last thing I'll leave you with. Ask yourself, is this a funeral speech moment? And here's what I mean by that. I was in Walgreens a year or so ago. My wife started this tradition that on the last day of school, we hide and we attack the kids with water balloons.

And it's become a funny thing. Like one year my son was on the roof of like our small like it's become like World War three and it's super super fun And they get me sometimes we've snuck up and got my wife. It's it's the whole thing's just chaos I was in Walgreens and I was getting some medicine or something and I saw a thing of like a hundred water balloons I just grabbed it because I thought that's gonna be funny one day and Something was going on and we needed to get to bed or whatever and I'd filled up long story short I remember saying if I throw all these balloons right now, I think it was in the house I've been in the house if I throw these right now, they will tell this story at my funeral

Like remember that one time not that dad got us to bed all in time again, but do you remember that time? goofball dad started throwing water balloons or snowballs or whatever it was in the house. And so sometimes I asked myself, will they tell this story at my funeral? Because if so, I'm going to, I'm going to let it rip. Now that's not always a good thing, but it's one of those just, this isn't a good idea on a Tuesday night. Yeah, but they'll tell the story one day.

So again, I love that question. Let's return our lives and our homes and our marriages and our relationship with our kids. Yes, they got to get their math homework turned in, but can we all start looking for a little more fun, playfulness, joy, laughter? Go get them and don't play Fortnite, God help you. Love you all, bye.