The Dr. John Delony Show - My Wife and I Live Like Roommates

Episode Date: September 8, 2025

On today’s episode, we hear about: A man at a dead end in a sexless marriage A woman unsure how to support her sister’s unusual lifestyle A man struggling with secondhand grief Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards 💭 John's Free Guided Meditation 🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch   Connect With Our Sponsors: Need to talk to someone? BetterHelp is virtual therapy when it’s convenient for you. Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. These are BEST sheets and towels in the world. Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.   Getting lots of spam calls? DeleteMe can clean up your online presence for you. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe.  Find peace every day. Hallow is the simplest way to slow down and get your head right for the day. Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial.  I have Helix Midnight mattresses in EVERY bedroom in my house. Get 27% off when you visit Helix Sleep, and take the sleep quiz to see what you need!  I took Thorne supplements way before I worked at Ramsey. Stoked that we can work together now! Get 25% off for LIFE at Thorne.    Head over to Poncho Outdoors to try the best outdoor performance shirt for yourself!   Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights  🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So I've been happily married for a little over 30 years. I've been one to get things heated up a little bit again, and my wife is pretty much not interested in that anymore. Most days I'll come home, and, you know, I've pretty much been replaced by a tablet and a cell phone. Correct. The thing that concerns me the most at this point is... What's going on?

on what's going on this is john with the dr john deloney show taking your calls from all over the planet on your mental and emotional health your relationships whatever you got going on in your life i'm just teasing this humongous news a few weeks ago i launched the together app by the doctor by it's in the app store together by dr john deloney it's an app for your marriage i'm not going to say anything else about it but you can go get it right now it's intentionally inexpensive it's intentionally awesome and we've run thousands of people through it already and it'll change your marriage go check it out in the app store all right let's go out to pittsburg and talk to paul what's up paul hey john how are you i'm good my call this morning of course man thanks for calling

in my brother how are you well i'm doing fine but uh have a question for you um so i've been happily married uh for the most part my wife for over 30 years um we're financially well off We've done, followed Dave's plan for our entire marriage, raised three kids who are now out of the house and being, contributing members of society. The question is that since we become empty nesters, I've been one of wanting to try to get back to maybe a little bit more romance, maybe get things heated up a little bit again, and my wife is pretty much not interested in that anymore. Hmm. How the conversation has gone? Not very well. I mean, it's, you know, I try to do the things that, you know, try to woo my wife again, you know, back to our old dating years where try to have date nights, go out to dinner, movies, concerts, that kind of thing. Even gone on trips to Europe and try to rekindle things, get things going. But every time I bring up the thought of us being together again, she kind of, you know, doesn't really want to talk about it. and it's it's gotten to the point where you know we're at home we're in separate rooms and separate beds

and quite honestly you know it's gone beyond being roommates that now it's more like two people that happen to live in the same building where else is this showing up paul and by the way i appreciate you having the courage to call most men wouldn't have the guts to do this so i appreciate you having the courage to call um i know this has happening to millions of households all over the country based on what people write in. So thank you for calling. Yeah, thanks, John. Because it is kind of difficult for me to talk about this.

I'm one of those guys who like to take care of everything himself. You know, my vocation is kind of like that kind of thing, you know, engineering-type background. And, you know, I'm a problem solver. Yeah. So it's kind of hard to talk about this. But thanks for helping me out. You bet, man.

So, so I'm trying to think where to start even. I guess the thing that concerns me the most at this point is a lack of a conversation. And it sounds like she is very voidant. Tell me about that. Yeah, so most days I'll come home and, you know, I've pretty much been replaced by a tablet and a cell phone. Correct. She's in her room, you know, working with her, watching, watching shows, talking on the cell phone. So there's not much conversation. try to do different things with her, you know, to get her out of the house, do things.

So we've even done power yoga with her on weekends. We're not going to play mahjong. Try to get interest in other things, things that we have common to get things going again. Dude, you're really like putting in the time, man, if you're doing power yoga. Way to go. Yeah, I'll tell you what. When I started that, John, it's like, oh, come on, this can't be that hard. But I'll tell you what, respect to everybody who does that because it's not easy.

Mad respect to the yoga. man it's tough stuff absolutely it takes a lot of strength that's right um but uh so trying to engage in and things like that but when it comes time to us being together to have a little bit more of a relationship there that are just like a you know the the business part of the marriage i guess i'll call it you know we take i take care of the bills you know go to work uh help with the chores but when it comes time to husband and wife time um she she kind of gets defensive doesn't want to It tells me she's not interested in that anymore. I understand, you know, we're in our early 60s, and menopause has a play in that.

Sure. But also there's some, there's some, there's some, there's multiple options for walking through paramedopause and menopause these days when it comes to how well you feel your sexual intimacy, I mean, all that stuff. So there's a number of avenues to explore if somebody's interested in those explorations. Yeah, and when I go down that path to talk about those things and that she just kind of gets a little bit upset, a little, maybe actually irritated, annoyed, doesn't really want to talk about it. So here's my deeper question. And there's an outcropping here. Two things I'm hearing.

One is you've made the comments back to, back to, back to, back to. And my challenge to you would be forward. looking who do we want to be for the next 10 years next 15 years versus how do we get this thing back the actions may be exactly the same but that future orientation for somebody who feels like i'm losing control of my body which is what i hear from women in paramedopause and menopause my body is is leaving me the body i knew this idea that i'm going to get back can be seen as i'll never get that body back i'll never be that young spring chicken i'm never going to be attractive again all those things versus i'm in love with you now and into the future i'm attracted to you which is even

different than that i want to be with you now and into the future though you may have said all those things and done all those things that that orientation sometimes is huge um here's the second thing if she's not on the phone so i just got you being reflective i'm hearing a woman who doesn't like you why would she not like you that's boy that's a that's a difficult one for me to answer because I don't see me. Okay. But if you had to guess, like, would she say for 40 years he hasn't listened to me and he's just problem solved over me and I got the kids out of here and now I want to

live my life or I had to do what he wanted to do, live in his town, I gave up my life for him and now it's my, like, what would she say as to the reason, like, I just don't want to be in the same room with you? I don't want to see a bedroom with you. Because that's beneath love and that's beneath, you know, duty and that's beneath, you know, sex and intimacy, this sounds like somebody who just doesn't like you. And I'm saying, I know that's harsh to say. It's probably the harshest thing I could say to another man.

But it sounds like she doesn't like you. Where does that come from, you think? I don't quite think that's it, John. I mean, other than talking about intimacy, very pleasant. Like I said, we do things together. We go out to lunches and dinners, breakfasts on Saturdays. It kind of seems like I'm more custodial to the relationship. where the things that she seems to be interested now or with her old friends,

with some acquaintances she's had in town. Some of the other activities she's involved in. So it's not like, I don't get the vibe that she doesn't like me. I feel more like it's kind of, what's that on a sudden, for lack of a better term, deteriorated. Like I said, instead of being a husband and a white pair, it's more like now we're two people that happen to live in the same building. I know. I don't know what I'm saying is hard to hear, but if you ran back what you just said, that's basically you just said what I said in a different way. Okay.

She likes being with other people. She likes being with her friend. She prefers their company. She will check the boxes. She'll check the boxes with you. She will feed herself. She will live in a home. She'll do things like laundry and or dishes because that's the function of the house.

But when it comes to who does she like being around, that's not you. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. And let me say this. If you talk to any marriage therapist who's been doing what they do for a while, the most men can get over sexual infidelity. Men can get over financial infidelity. Men can rarely get over my wife doesn't like me because that's such a core.

What's wrong about what's so wrong about me? And for most men, that calls into all the way back to their childhood. What was something was wrong with me that I had to go fix? And there's something terrifying about asking that question, which. relationally, and this is hard, I would tell you the scariest question to ask is usually the question that must be asked. Because if she liked you,

she would at least talk to you about, hey, I don't feel good in my own body. Sex hurts right now because of menopause, or I feel like I'm crazy, or I feel like she would have that conversation, she won't entertain it, and her way of deflecting is to get frustrated or angry. Or annoyed.

and then if she can get a benefit out of it if it can be a trip somewhere if it can be a meal somewhere she'll endure it but when it comes to something that intimate and so that's like the biggest concern here lots of 60 year olds you know men struggle with erectile dysfunction or women with all sorts of you know physical challenges after menopause this seems to be different because y'all can't even have the conversation and if I argue that's where I would start would be like I want to have a conversation about our friendship. I don't think you like me anymore. And she'll love you.

That's just, I get that. But there's a deeper, like, I don't feel like you like me. And if you start with an I statement, it becomes an invitation. And she might get upset and say, I'm going to ask you to not get upset. I'm going to ask you to have this conversation because my heart is hurting right now. Yeah, that is how I feel. I mean, does you, yeah, thanks for feeding. that back to me because as I hear all

you're explaining this, it does make a lot of sense to me. Like, everything we do is functional, but it's, you know, it's cold. It's not intimate. That's it. And most men, of course, everyone likes sex and everyone likes, like,

that, but there's something beneath sex that I've come to believe after meeting with so many men and reading so much, and just in my own life experience, sex often says you're okay we're okay and absent of that like it can i mean it just gets tough man and in your mind your engineering mind you've checked every excel spreadsheet box possible finances money trips food successful kids and then there's this like nagging question in your

guts like what's wrong with me exactly and i think if you use i statement and ask your wife, hey, as your husband of however many years, 40 years, 30 years, I'm going to ask you to stay present in this conversation. My heart's broken because I feel like you don't like me. Am I unlikable? All right. And it's interesting too. I mean, my reactions to the way our situation now is, I mean, it brings a frustration,

resentment to me because like you're saying, I don't understand. I feel like I'm doing what I should do. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not getting any kind of reciprocation or response or anything. Right. And this is a, it's going to sound like you're a submissive question, which I think is a great thing, but it might be a hard question. If you ask the question, how do I become more likable? Not more sexually attractive or how can we have more sex?

Yeah. How can I become more likable? How can I become your friend again? That will force a deal. I'll be quiet. You're my friend. Like, but I'm not. Right, right.

And how do I become your friend again? Because I know that you don't, I get the sense you don't like me. And I think for anyone listening, I'm just putting myself in your seat, man. I've had that conversation a few times across, I've been married 23 years. I've had that conversation a few times, and it's a nightmare of a question. I'd much rather ask any other question than that. Yeah, you're right, because it all starts there. I mean, everybody's different, but I mean, if,

when you get to the sexual intimacy part of it, that has more to do with how you feel about each other. Do you like me? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the core. That's what makes that unity of the husband and wife unique. Yeah, man. And I know a lot of couples, I'll say a lot. I know many couples, if you will, that are in their 60s and their 70s. They're not sexually active, but they like each other. They're ridiculous. And the ones that I know, like, personally, I'll give them a hard time. Like, are you seriously not doing it? You're about to be dead in like 10 years. And they'll laugh and we all laugh and they're like, you shut up. But they like each other's company.

They like each other's best friend. And I think the thing here beneath the sex for me that's breaking my heart for you is y'all aren't friends anymore. And I think the hardest part for you is you've done what you knew to do to be a good provider and be a good husband and those things are ringing hollow because the woman in your life doesn't like you doesn't want to be around you and doesn't want to sleep next to you doesn't want to eat next to you unless it's somewhere nice doesn't want to like be with you sexual like all those questions and so i think getting to the bottom of you don't like me i'd like to be your friend and we

have 30 years left together um until we pass away like i want i want to be your friend or the deeper question is what would need to change in me that would make you like me not saying that something wrong with you you got to go change but that's a way to ask that question put on the table and maybe get some deeper things so that's where i would start um man anytime and this is for everybody listening anytime there's a scary scary terrifying question that's usually the question that needs to get put on the table and sometimes you can't just drop it like a grenade but getting to that scariest question is often where the healing and or the revelation in a relationship challenge is we come back a mom is torn between supporting her sister's lifestyle

and protecting her son all right listen if you're anything like me you have recently felt it that not so subtle shift right summer's winding down the days are getting shorter schools back in action and q4 work stresses are hitting hard and if you're like me you're wanting to numb out more and more we have to be intentional about protecting our sleep because here's the truth how you sleep is a massive part of how well you feel or not when your mind and body aren't resting your mind and body can't reset one of the most important things i do to stay mentally sharp and emotionally steady and able to show up for my wife and my kids and my team is get good sleep and that's why i've been talking and talking about helix mattresses helix builds mattresses made

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Go to helixleep.com slash Deloni for 27% off site. wide. That's Helix, H-E-L-I-X, helix sleep.com slash Deloni. And tell them you heard about this right here on this show. With Helix, better sleep starts right now. All right. Hey, take two seconds and hit the subscribe button, especially if you're watching this on YouTube. I've got some big YouTube subscription goals this year, and I'll want to try to hit them. And we just crossed a hundred million views last month, which means only a fraction of you all are stopping to hit the subscribe button so if you'll stop hit the subscribe button it would mean the world to me thank you so so much let's go down the street here in nashville and talk

to riley what's up riley hi john or hi dr deloney how are you all you can call me john that's what thank you're nicer than what all my friends call me no you're good you're good um first i just want you to know i'm a really big fan so thank you for taking my call you got got it so i this is kind of a complex issue, so feel free to cut me off if I'm rambling too much. Cool, let it rip. Yeah, so I am torn between supporting my sister, who I used to be very close with, but it was mostly in my early 20s, teenage years that we were very close. There's a fairly large age gap between us on 10 years. And then I feel like as I've matured and I became a mom and I got married, I have matured and I feel like she almost hasn't. I have a son. I have a

son, and we live in different states so we don't see each other every day, but our children are very close, and I would like to maintain their relationship for my son's purposes, and also just for my parents, because, you know, I don't want to tear the family apart. However, I do get torn a lot because our values are very different. Just to give you one example, she's married to a woman who she's been married to for a really long time, and I love this woman so much she feels like a sister to me, and they have kids together. But recently, well, not recently,

it's probably been about a year. She opened up to us that they are in a triple, and then that kind of has developed into, it sounds like maybe they're at a point now where just my sister and this individual are dating, and my sister-in-law is no longer

involved, but I'm not totally sure because she's very difficult for me to talk to. We have a really hard time discussing issues. She kind of lives in like a victim mentality and for me personally like I'm a very positive person but I think that

and we used to be able to talk about everything but recently I feel like I've matured and grown and learned more about setting boundaries and I'm still learning how to use those boundaries but sometimes I come across as very cold towards her and I don't mean to so I know that it's hard for her to talk to me as well as I have a hard time talking to her because she can get very mean and uses very harsh language sometimes that I'm just you know

it's just impossible to talk to her she kind of bulldozes you kind of person so basically I would like my son to maintain a relationship with her children and I'd like her to have a relationship with my son but I also am not comfortable with a thrott dynamic I think that marriage is sacred. And I think that if you have issues within your marriage, it's better to resolve them than to bring in a third and kind of treat that person like a band-aid. I also feel nervous bringing my child over to her house because I don't know this person. I don't know that person's children who are also around. And it's my job to protect my child. He's very young. He's only two. And, you know, living in different states when we're in the same

location. It's, you know, we want quality time together because we don't see each other a ton. And so there's often like a request for my son to sleep over or like there's times where it would be nice to just be able to drop my son off at her house to watch him because that would be helpful. But I also like don't know that I trust that dynamic anymore to just drop my son off because I don't know those children. I don't know her partner, her new partner. And I also worry about the influence that this could have on my son. Granted, he's only two, but this, I don't want this to be normalized. And when you're starting it off young, it is going to be normalized if he's always around it.

So I think that that mostly covered everything. There's a ton of other things, but I feel like that's a good starting point. No, Riley, tell me more. That was a lot. We tell you my childhood trauma now. No, I'm kidding. So I'm going to take some, I'm going to take just a big old handful of spaghetti and start throwing it up against the wall and you tell me if what I heard in that conversation is real, okay? Okay.

Or if it's accurate, it's a better way to say it. Thing I heard, number one, is you're mourning the fact that you loved your sister's wife, you all had a great relationship. and for whatever reason, they've broken up, gotten divorced, added a third, but complicated a situation that you were really comfortable with. And so there's some sense of mourning the end of your sister's marriage. Yeah, I think that's really accurate. And your sister-in-law, you loved, like she was awesome. Yeah.

Okay. So let's put that aside. So that's me throwing spaghetti up, number one. So there's a mourning of, I liked the way this thing was going. and I liked the people in my like we talk all the time like marry somebody that the rest of us will like to right and your sister did her wife was awesome and then this whole other thing happened then number two you're concerned about the sexual ethic of adding multiple people I don't know who's in that house and I don't like the I don't like the threesome or thruple and for those you don't know what that is that is when basically when a married couple or a dating couple decides to add three so everybody's dating each other and equal parts or some equal parts or some form of an arrangement and for you that's too that's i don't i don't want to be around that right i have i have ethical issues with that that arrangement that's number two

the third one is i'm not dropping my two year old off in a world that i don't that's got kids coming and going other adults coming and going there's just no way and then the fourth one is I freaking miss my sister. I can't hang out with her. We can't talk anymore. You mentioned several times about how you're wiser or you've gotten more wisdom. Like, there's just this dynamic

that each of you feels above the other and she probably feels more enlightened than you and you're with your simpleton mind and you feel more ethical than her. But at the end of that, underneath it all, I miss my sister. Yeah. So do those four things,

do they nail it a little bit? Yeah, I think that. that's accurate. Okay. So I think the challenge with this is, and then you add the politics on top of the thruple, and you add if you're a person of faith, like how that intertwines with everything. And then you're the odd man out because you love your sister's wife, but you don't like this arrangement. And so you're one group of your friends doesn't think that even the gay marriage is okay. And then the other group of friends thinks anything go, like, so you find yourself all by yourself in this, right? Um, I don't feel like I have anyone in my life that has issues with, like, a gay marriage. Um, it's, yeah, it's simply just a throttle. I, I am a person of faith, but I'm not super involved in the church community. Okay, cool. Awesome. So, yeah. So I missed that one. So I threw that one up against the wall. I just didn't stick. It fell on the floor. So there we get. So I, the challenge here is, all of this gets mushed up into one big knot in the middle of your chest. And the reason I think it's

important to pull it out is like to like pull it apart is the scariest thing of all of this is and i want to hone in on this one first is the safety of your kid and i don't think that a two-year-old being around an aunt that has different life choices is just going to imprint this on them or normalize it i don't think that but okay i am worried about the safety of your kid coming and going. I would not drop my kid off in a house that's where I don't know the kids. I don't know the partner. I don't know. I wouldn't do that. Absolutely wouldn't. Yeah. And that's just me being around a working with young people my whole career and hearing the stories of abuse from not from the friend at the sleepover, but the friend's brother or the friend's brother's friend, right? And just the further that

extended circle goes, the less safety there is. And so yeah, I think you are dead on on that. Yeah. Then I think you've got to grieve the loss of your relationship with your sister. Yeah. And I don't know how you make your way back to that beneath all of these different layers. But sometimes it's just a matter of a phone call or a voice text or even a text message that says, I miss my sister. And that may not respond well at all. That may be like who knows how she responds to that.

I hate that for you. Yeah, it's, it's, I feel like there's been a lot of, um, this has been, the distance between us has been growing since before the trouble even, you know, I just feel like, I don't know, I just feel like we just have grown into different people. We've had a lot of different life experiences, especially given our large age gap. And you have, and you should have. The challenge is, like, Like, letting go of the fantasy that we're still little girls in the house together, which I'll never really work because you ought to be gauge gap.

But, like, this idea that sisters are supposed to have very similar lives. And there's this other woman in my life who's also my sister, who's a very different world than me. But I miss her. Yeah. And it's letting go of some of the stories that we tell ourselves about what sisters are supposed to be like and what hanging out is supposed to look like and what our lives are supposed to be like. but letting reality kind of drive this, which is we're, how many years apart did you say? About 10. Yeah, we're 10 years apart, but I miss my sister.

Mm-hmm. If you sent her a message and just said, hey, I miss you. Like, for the last few years, we've been growing further and further apart. I know I played a role in that, but I miss my sister. Is there a chance we could get together? What would she say to that? I think that she would be open to it. I do because I know she feels the same way.

I just worry about what would happen after that. I think that there was a part of my life. I think she's moved on from this, but there was a part of my life where she placed a lot of blame on my husband saying that he changed me. And that was really hard because you never want your family talking badly about your chosen partner like that. And I think that I hold.

hold on to some resentment from that. So that's something I need to work through. But also, I just, I worry that she might pull that on again. And I don't want to do that. You know, I just, I just wish that we could just have, like, a normal sister relationship. Like, where we're friends. I just don't feel like we're friends right now. And I don't know that, I don't know that if she wasn't my sister.

I don't know that I would choose her as a friend. I know with uncertainty that you would not. Yeah. And so the question becomes, what does that mean? and does that mean you grieve this relationship and kind of let it go to the wind it's just hard to imagine doing that because of what that could do to my parents like I don't want to be you haven't done that your job isn't to perpetually keep your parents propped up yeah you probably learned that at a young age too but that's not your job

yeah and if your parents happiness and well-being is contingent on their two daughters who are 10 years apart with radically different lives and who have treated each other in different ways over the years somehow manufacturing or duct-tapping together some sort of relationship that doesn't make any sense that's their issue to deal with yeah there's a kindness and being cordial right you don't fist-fight at thanksgiving if mom and dad asks y'all to all come in but there's a there's just a reality We're 10 years apart, we live in different states. Mm-hmm. Do you think then that, like, it should be, like, a formal conversation of, like, I think that we are living different lifestyles and, like, it's just not something I'm comfortable with my son being around anymore? Or do you think I should just continue to be cordial and just... No, I would flip it all the way around. I always want to use eye statements whenever I can.

Mm-hmm. And so, oh, I'm very protective of my son, and I don't let him spend the night where there's going to be just kids, I don't know, and other adults, I don't know. That's on me. Period. End the story. Yeah. You don't have to get into lifestyle stuff. You don't have to get into dating choices. You don't have to get into the sexual ethics of throuples. You don't have to get any of that. I don't let my kid do X, Y, and Z. Doesn't matter if it's a friend from school. It doesn't matter if it's a friend from church. Doesn't matter if it's a friend from, like, one of your friends. I just don't do that. Oh, he's going to be fine. He'll be fine. I know. I know. This one's on me. I just don't do this. that period yeah period i think another another thing that i'm afraid of is you know if there's no one

at the house and she's just like well it's just it's just my kids and you know my wife at this point because you know the third isn't always there um what i have a fear of is what if something has already happened with one of her kids and what if they do something to my say i know that's like spiraling but like here's here's what your big fear is you're still desperate for your sister to approve of you and you have to stop yeah i know that's really accurate you have to stop you're making yourself crazy and if if you're honest and she is chosen to not be your friend or chosen to just live her own life and her sister is just like hey what about me what about me what about me you have to grieve that like the loss that it is but you're so desperate for her approval that you're willing to

A, give her just miles of rent-free real estate in your mind while you're worrying about things, you're imagining things, and then you're imagining things on top of those imaginations, creating story after story after story. You're having imaginary conversations with her

where you, like, imagine yourself responding to her and then getting indignant about her response back to you, and none of that stuff has happened. And now you're imagining imaginary potential maybe abuse of a situation that may have had, happen that may turn. Man, you are making yourself nuts. And at the end of this, you're just trying to please somebody. And the only way path forward I see is one of two ways. One is you write her a letter, don't send it, but you write her a letter saying, I love you and I wish you the best. And I

understand you don't want me in your life. May God bless you. And then you weep like you haven't weeped before wept before or you call her and say i miss my sister and more importantly i miss my friend can we be friends and friends don't agree with everything friends don't um do everything the same way friends don't listen to the same music all the time friends don't stay up as late as each other friends don't drink as much as each other does friends don't have the same sexual ethics as each other does or the same like like they're like the same things with their kids they're so friends same team and you being able to take responsibility not well i would like you but you do that i just don't do that with my kids i miss your wife i miss your like i i i i i i and that's you taking

ownership and that starts with you saying i want to be someone that i love and that i respect and that my life isn't going to be about trying to get other people to like me and that's a hard place to be. Thanks for a call, sister. Thanks for the call. We come back, a man is struggling to grieve a tragedy that didn't directly affect him but is really weighing on him heavy. Hey, it's Deloney for Hallow,

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and talk to Joshua. What's up, Joshua? Hey, Dr. John. What's up, ma'am? Man, well, I just want to say it's an office. honored to get to talk to you, and it's kind of weird hearing your voice over the phone and not on YouTube. Well, I appreciate you calling, man.

Absolutely. Well, my question is, how do I, and really, I guess my family and I grieve something that hasn't directly happened to us in a way without making it selfish. So I'm referring, you know, to the flooding that happened to Central Texas and the tragedy I can't miss sick. It's just, it's just weighed really heavily on mine and my life's heart and we're not sure. How do we grieve that well? and how do we grieve that appropriately.

Tell me where the judgment of your grief is coming from. I think part of it is just seeing how people have reacted to tragedy, like on social media in the past, just the way they've made it about like, oh, look at me, look how sorrowful I am, this is all about me, and I just, like, I don't want to be, disrespectful to those who have lost loved ones when I haven't. And it almost feels guilty crying over somebody else losing children who I don't know

and have no relationship with. Like I've cried over friends who have lost people before and have grieved, those around me who have walked through hard times. But I think just having something so distant and grieving so heavily over, it just It almost feels like I'm not allowed to. Yeah. Where does that voice come from, man? Like, I think I just get irritated, seeing people make tragedy about them and about how they're feeling.

And it almost feels like they're trying to shine light on themselves and not show compassion for those around them. So can I say something real hard to you? yeah it sounds like your chief fear is that other people are judging you as harshly as you judge others one of the things i've learned um and this comes from a great friend of mine um named link he uh him and his wife experienced a pretty traumatic pregnancy loss very close to term and then my wife and i went through one of our uh miscarriages which was much earlier in the term and him and i were talking and he was on the crisis team with me he was uh he's just been a good good mentor of mine he's ahead of me he's been being a mental health professional longer than i have

and i remember us talking and i stopped and i said during our conversation um i said yeah i know what we went through is not near as bad as what you and his wife went through and he stopped me and he said loss is loss is loss and i'll never forget those three words like hurt and pain is hurt and pain and when we judge how other people are experiencing it um it it it i don't know it there here's a deal there are people who use tragedy for their own personal gain politicians we saw that happen it's disgusting gross yeah they did it within within 10 minutes they're politicizing it right and um there's real if you're i've got friends and family and community members in texas i've got family and community members in texas i've got family

members that were deeply affected by this lost everything like i've got i've i've i've vested interest in this and there's real blame to go around and there's also just it rained 30 feet like right all that's to say if your heart is with those hurting parents there's no judgment do cry your eyes out i have my kids have been at a camp ever since that happened one or both one of my kids has been away from my house at a camp. I haven't had everybody back in the house yet. And I haven't slept yet. Not well.

And so I hope every parent grieves deeply at the loss of somebody else's child. Do I think it can be gross that people put on social media? Yeah, I just don't even pay attention to it. And so my hope is, as a parent, you and your wife, as parents, I hope you all are kept up at night by the loss of kids.

I hope you look around your local community and say, where can we get involved here? I hope you say, I don't know why I'm crying because our kids are okay, but one time this happened or this reminds me of a time our friends' kids got lost and loss is loss is lost. Pain isn't some zero. And where can we make sure our communities are safe? Where can we make sure our kids are safe?

where can we send 30 bucks to or 50 bucks or 3,000? Like where can we do a little bit of put something in the hat to pass around to help out? Like, I think all of those are human experiences. And yet, if you're judging

how other people are grieving, you're always going to feel judged when you grieve. And so the challenge there is, not that you figure out a way to grieve, right, but that you in your spirit decide, I'm going to stop judging people. If they're sad and heartbroken and weeping, I'm going to weep with them too. Yeah, I think part of that is even more, I think the more social media component than anything else.

Like I think that's where I judge more than having personal interactions with people. And I think that's kind of where my folly is, is I don't need to use social media as the gauge for that. I think 1,000% you're on to something. Or to put it differently, now I'm from Texas, so it's a little bit easier for me. I got off of social media and I started making phone calls to people and that connected me directly to what was going on

and my wife and I are in a silly season of blessing and we put our money where our mouth is and my wife got in the car and drove across the state and I kept the house together while she was down helping family like so you get involved where you can get involved and if you don't know anybody in Texas and you don't know any like you can get off

social media and find a local music artist and buy one of the t-shirts and put some money down there and it's just a million ways to get to be supportive but i think you're right and by the way can i give us all some grace if somebody's is there's a tragedy and our kids are lost we as parents would be nuts if we weren't transfixed to that trying to figure out ways to make sure our kids don't get lost someday. Yeah. And when 30 feet of water rise up in less than 20 minutes or whatever crazy thing happened out there in Texas, it's unnerving because there's not, I mean, there's, they can put

sirens in and they can do that kind of stuff. Fine. There's not a lot you can do. And that's a terrifying notion for parents. Is that fair? Absolutely. Yeah. and sometimes I can tell you this

there's a couple of times when I was doing crisis work when I would show up to sit with parents who had lost kids and I would go in this is before my daughter was born but I would go in to my son's room when he was really little and he'd be asleep and I would just go hug him in the dark because I just there was nothing I could do

I just needed to put my hands on my son and be sad and be grateful to yeah i i did that after uh after we had heard the news and my wife and i were really broken up about that that weekend and just in the evenings like i we were out of town and uh i i just like i couldn't help just looking at my kids and just just thinking like what if that was them i just that is a that is a right response of a parent it's a right response and if somebody chooses to take that response and put it all over social media i'm i'm just not going to i'm not going to consume it but i'm not going to spend one second of energy trying to dig into

their mind and spirit about their motive i'm going about my day and see where if any place i can be a support or assistance and if this were to happen in northern california i just made up something i know some people there i'm trying to think of a place i don't know anybody in south dakota I wouldn't be able to call somebody. I don't know anybody there, right? I wouldn't be able to, I mean, I wouldn't know the organizations to send money. I mean, I wouldn't know what to do.

And so it's right to feel helpless in my house here in Nashville. It's right to want to hug my kids extra. And all those things are right and good. It's that next step of trying to judge how people are grieving that I'm just, I don't have any use for. I don't have the interest of loss is loss, is loss. As David Kessler says, grief is like a fingerprint. It's different for everybody.

So people are screaming in the street. I'm going to give that to them. And if they're silent and go into a closet in their house, I'm going to give that to them. And if they want to post about it or blog about it, I'm going to give that to them because people grieve differently. And I'm going to move on with my life. I will speak out against disgusting politicians that try to use every horrible thing as a way to improve their standing. I think that's gross. And I think it's inhumane.

but when it comes to moms and dads just grieve in the loss of other people's kids dude grieve how you want to grieve man and yeah get off social media and then do something in your life here's a couple things for grief write a letter put money on the table and go find something to do in your local community here's something silly get your kids together and get a trash act and y'all go for a long two-hour walk and pick up trash in your neighborhood um go find an organization in your local community and you and your kids just for an afternoon go do a thing there's something about the it's a stress cycle but if you go do a thing if you go do a hard thing you go exercise you go spend some time serving somebody else it literally works the chemicals out

of your body the cortisol and the adrenaline that should fire in every parent when kids are under attack and so finding a way to channel this instead of just scrolling scrolling scrolling scrolling scrolling scrolling that would that would be my highest recommendation there yeah i appreciate that and maybe um if you want to do something i used i used to do this and i just stopped it became overwhelming but every time there was a shooting and kids died or every time there was a loss of kids i would read their name on the show you can go back some of the earlier episodes and um i wanted people to hear their names and for me personally there's um there's an experience saying their names out loud and recognize them as whole beings as I have a nine-year-old little girl man she

would have been in one of those cabins right and I was a camp counselor growing up in college I would have had to make the decision do I break the window out and walk these kids out here up in neck deep water or do I just ride it out I mean I put myself in that situation several times just as a thought experiment and it's daunting it's terrifying right all of us have been there and so maybe getting the list of those girls off some media site and writing a letter to each one of them that you'll never send and just let them know hey i am going to be the best dad to my kids ever wanted you to know your loss reminded me the importance of life and how precious life is and i'm going to be the best freaking dad that's ever lived and my kids

susy and jim are going to have they're going to have a dad that loves them to the moon and back right that may be a way to process that grief yeah but yeah ultimately end of all this call get off social media man just it it literally adds nothing after the initial what's going on and there is a news aspect to it i'm going off i'm going to get off i'm going to get off and just look around my home look around my neighborhood look around my community and say where can i be a person of support so thanks for call my brother i'm really grateful for you we'll be right back all right we are back um real quick before we talk about what we have to talk about um in light of that last call there is a couple of i i'm just thinking of a couple of

opportunities to put money in and buy a t-shirt to if you want to support the flood efforts um my buddy he's a country music star in texas name erin watson you can look him up on social media he is a great friend high high man of character and trust and he's got a t-shirt that he's selling that the proceeds will go directly to that buddies in bowling for soup the old pop punk band jaret and that crew have a t-shirt that you can sell. Kelly found one that is supportive of, I've never said this before and will I say it after, but the Astros and the Rangers, tell me about that?

So the Astros and the Rangers both create, they had a shirt created that has both logos on it. It says together for Texas that they've been selling at both stadiums and wearing for batting practice. Right, so you get that online too. So even if you just want to buy a t-shirt and all the proceeds are going to go, t-shirts cost like five or six bucks to make.

buy it for 30 bucks the rest of that money goes to support flood recovery efforts and all kind of stuff so that's just a couple of things that I'm putting my money towards and I'm going to encourage you all to do something 10 bucks 20 bucks 30 bucks you can donate there to Texas or if you've got more that's awesome all right Kelly yes I got a bone to pick with the internet's so do I we recently had a caller who was going through a nightmare scenario a she'd made some poor choices in her life. B, she was really struggling in a profound way. And ultimately, I reached out to you and Chris, the head of the network here, and said, hey, we need to turn these comments off or we all check and see if we need to turn these comments off because I'd gotten word that there was just

some vile, just awful stuff people were piling on to this person. So tell me about what you saw. I didn't even see them. I was driving. Yeah, so this happened over the weekend. a text from John, he'd gotten a DM from somebody about the comments. So, um, looked at them and I was shocked at, and I won't not repeat the things that were said because we would get taken off the air. Yeah. They were the personal attacks against who she was as a person, the names that she was called, the worst names you can call a woman were in there multiple times.

Kelly, I'm just kidding. Wow. I'm trying to lighten things up a little bit, but yeah, it was all. It was disgusting. It really was that, A, this is clearly a woman that was struggling. But who cares? Even if it wasn't,

people are so brave behind a screen and a keyboard. And it was stuff you would never say to someone's face. And it was disgusting. And it really left a bad taste in my mouth. And we turn the comments off and we'll do that because we're not going to let people that are brave enough to call into this show be rated like that. Right on.

So if you're listening, and that was you, don't shame on you yeah don't and that brings into a larger like thing in my head this show's gonna come out a month later but we're just a weekend after the cold play incident um was there some hilarious memes after that yes like i laughed there's some funny stuff out there but the public pile on like the the the public shaming which is as old as time right people getting dragged out to the public square and locked in stock so that everyone could walk by and point at them. Our collective, like, ooh, look at them, is so powerful and yet so disgusting.

And here's why. Both of those people who got caught cheating on the Jumbotron have kids that cannot show their face anymore. A, because their parents did something stupid, fair. In a public setting, fair. And because we all just decided to go look at them, look at them. Same with I won't go down the rabbit hole There's just been so much public

shaming And I think it's a way to make us all feel better Kind of like that last caller Like I feel really bad But I don't want to be one of those people That grieves like that And we have this just public shaming Thing wired into us

And I guess if I would tell everybody is Dude, just stop Stop man If that makes you feel better To pile onto somebody to blast somebody with an ugly comment go talk to somebody because you need some help need some help if there's a funny meme you can laugh that's funny but the public just gross pile on man it's just i don't know dude it's just grossing me out these days it feels like that's the

soup de jour and i'm kind of over it i'd rather somebody blows up their life i don't know i'd rather us pull up a seat and say man here's here's a drink come tell me what happened and versus ah i don't know i just think it's the i think it's the worst parts of us so is what it is so that's my me and kelly's public lecture of the day don't pile on be kind and if you get mad about something if you get ugly about something here's this awesome thing you can do just change channel just scroll another direction to da try that love you guys bye Thank you.