The Dr. John Delony Show - My Wife Left After 20 Years...

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

On this episode, we hear about: - A man dating for the first time after the end of a 20-year marriage - A wife struggling to enjoy life outside of work - A woman unable to stop talking aloud to herself Lyrics of the day: "Willow" - Taylor Swift Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: -BetterHelp -Hallow -Organifi -Eight Sleep -Apollo Neuro -Thorne -Add products to your cart -create an account at checkout -Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: -Building a Non-Anxious Life -Anxiety Test -Own Your Past, Change Your Future -Questions for Humans Conversation Cards -John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. I talk to myself a lot, and most of the time, not most of the time, some of the time, it's in my head. Some of the time, it's out loud. I don't really realize I'm doing it until I'm already talking out loud, and it can be embarrassing when I'm around other people and not really realizing it until it's already happening, and I don't know if that's normal. What is going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show.

We are recording this the day after we got back to the office after being gone for the holiday break. So we're into the new year. If you're listening to this, it's what, February already? Or at the end of January? Yeah, January 22nd. Good. So I hope you're still staying on all these new things you were going to do. The new year, new you, whatever's going on.

Or if you're like me, I really struggled this year. Like I wasn't ready for the new year. Wasn't super jazzed about it. And now that it's gotten going, we're at the very beginning of the new year. I wasn't ready for the new year. Wasn't super jazzed about it. Now that it's gotten going, we're at the very beginning of the new year. Now I'm starting to get into the groove and starting to imagine, all right, here's some things that are going to be different. Here's some things that are going to be the same I'm going to double down

on. Here's some things I'm going to quit doing. Pretty excited about it. And Kelly? Yes. Jenna had her baby. Yes. I think everybody knows that Jenna was pregnant and she was due in mid to late February. This show would have been way funnier if you had just said, like, we didn't

know she was pregnant and she had a baby, but alright, everybody knew. So, the things you're going to stop doing are not those things, apparently, right? Correct. Okay, just checking. Wanted to check on that. So, no, she had her baby and she ended up, the day after Christmas, having to go in the hospital.

She had preeclampsia, but she is fine. Baby's fine. He's tiny, almost four pounds, and a little peanut. His name is Owen. Baby is healthy. I got screwed again. Didn't name it John like we had planned. No, she did not.

That's ridiculous. We'll call it all the drugs and stuff. That's probably how that happened, that she named it something different. I agree. Surely, once all the hormones and stuff, she'll figure that out. She'll be like, oh my gosh, what have we done? Change the That she named it something different. I agree. Surely once all the hormones and stuff, she'll figure that out. She'll be like, oh my gosh, what have we done? Change the certificate. Change it. Exactly. Change everything. Probably what will happen.

Probably. She's home. She came home yesterday. I saw her last night. The baby's in the NICU, but he'll be there for a couple weeks. He is very healthy. Needs a little growing. Just a little tiny peanut. Some more warmth. Yeah, a little warmth. He's suntanning

right now. Yes, just baking. Yep, doing a little baking, a little growing, but he's actually really healthy. I've heard this is the nightmare part for folks whose baby is in NICU for a while. You can't hold your own baby.

It's just absolute, total hell. She's met him. She didn't meet him until the next day, like officially see him. She's held his hands, but she hasn't held him yet. But she did tell me when she had to leave the hospital yesterday, she was crying. Oh, I can't imagine. But she said the NICU nurses, I mean, those are just, man.

Yeah, they're special. They are special. And they told her anytime, 2 in the morning, 5 in the afternoon, 8 at night, whatever, you need to see him, you come up. Yeah, they're special. They are special. And they told her anytime, two in the morning, five in the afternoon, eight at night, whatever, you need to see him, you come up. Yeah. You know, there's no visiting hours. There's none of that, that with NICU parents, anytime you need to come in here, you come in here. And they're only like three miles from the hospital. Yeah. So that's great. So, but he'll just be there a couple of weeks. So she's doing good and she misses everybody. And, you know, it was not what she said last night. She said,

I'm still trying to figure out what happened. She said, I went to my appointment on the day after Christmas and, you know, for a baby that wasn't due for two months

and then I don't have one. And so she's... And she should go back to your house but the baby's still there. Yeah. So her head's a little,

you know, has spun a little bit but they're doing good. What a wild world we live in. Yes. Well, very cool that we live in this little weird sliver of history where that's possible. But in the meantime, we're welcoming Taylor to the game. To our little game.

Swift, by the way. Taylor Swift. She's taking a break from her tour. She's going to be on the greatest podcast of all time. Pod show. Pod show. To the oldest guy ever. I don't feel as old anymore.

Let's go out to Ontario, Canada and talk to Jesse's girl. What's up, Jesse? Hey, Dr. John. How you doing? We're doing all right, man. How about you? I'm doing okay. Very good, man. What's happening? Is it cold? You know what?

It snowed a little bit last night for the first time. We had a white Christmas actually Ah, very good man Congratulations It was quite warm What's up? Alright, well I've been really struggling with some

Anxieties that I've never Really experienced before Not really sure where to go with it But I know I don't want to feel like that anymore. Um, I'll give you a quick backstory on it. I was married for 20 years. I'm a Christian man. Uh, my ex-wife just kind of abruptly up and left.

She had her own kind of mental health issues that she was dealing with and some past traumas, et cetera. And, uh, so yeah, there was about a three day notice and then poof, everything had changed. And, and this anxiety that I felt was, I mean, I got through it, that was five years ago. And, uh, you know, I kind of held on to hope that, you know, things were going to work out and be patient about it. And, uh, you know, again, my faith played a large role in that. And you know, I was, I was pushed and pulled and pushed and pulled and kicked the curb. And finally I said, enough's enough. I ventured out, met a wonderful girl. Everything was great

seeing for about four months. And then I started to feel her pull away. And I thought I had dealt with all those anxieties. And the minute she started to pull away, I was hyper aware of every single text message, the tone of her voice, body language. I felt like I did the first day my wife left. And yeah, it's been a week of just that, just that pit in my stomach. And I need to not feel like that. Anytime somebody says that after 20 years, somebody abruptly left, I always want to push on that a little bit. Okay. When she, when she,

when your ex-wife tells you, and I'm going back that far for a reason. Okay. So I'm not just, just playing around. Um, when she told you why she left, did she paint a picture of a long story or is it really like now I woke up on

Tuesday and decide I'm good? Uh, well, the funny answer to that is, um, she never really told me why, uh, it took about two and a half years for her to, to kind of pinpoint to herself, uh, why. And I guess that came down to, she did say she wasn't happy for a while. Um, there was a lot of outside stressors outside of our marriage, not saying that I didn't have anything to do with, you know, definitely could have been more supportive, more involved,

that kind of thing. Outside stressors like what? Uh, she has a daughter who has been struggling with a drug addiction. And, um, you know, we had custody of grandkids at the time. Our child services up in Canada basically dumped them off at the house and said, if you guys don't take them, they're going to get separated. They're going to go somewhere else. Did she take those kids with her? We did, yes. No, no, no. When she left you. Oh, no.

By the time the actual split happened, things had kind of worked out there and the children were returned back to the mother. Okay. Here's what I'm getting at. I don't want you to look at anxiety as something that you worked through. Okay? It serves an important role in your life. It just has to serve the right role. Okay?

So we all have a friend, or hopefully you have a friend, who would, like, if y'all were out having a drink or something, and somebody mouthed off at your wife, this friend would be hitting that person before you even realized what had happened, right? We all want a friend that defends us. And then there's that idiot friend who defends us like that when we don't need it or don't want it. And it causes like a big melee, right? Similarly, anxiety works for us. It just doesn't always work in the right place at the right time.

If you told me after 20 years, two decades of building a life with somebody, you all took on foster kids, you took on an external – I mean, you took on somebody else's daughter and raised her as your own and dealt with all the mental health and addiction challenges, all that stuff. And then one day someone just, she just leaves. That would shake the sidewalk. That would shake the, the foundation of your life, like to where your feet wouldn't ever feel secure. And so then you meet somebody after five years and it sounds like you and your ex are still talking throughout this, like, even though y'all have been divorced for five years now,

y'all still are in communication. Is that right? Well, there's a little bit more of that story. I can let you finish your, your thought there. Go for it. Go ahead and fill me in. Okay. So, um, so yeah, um, you know, my, my ex was always around. She was always kind of kept me at arm's distance and she's been clear that, you know, she has a hard time seeing a life without me. And, uh, I kind of had to come to the point and say like, look, you know, I, I can't be your friend. I could be friendly, but I need to, this isn't going anywhere. This isn't going to get fixed, etc. What did she accomplish by divorcing you? Did she want to sleep with other people?

Did she just want to live in her own house? What was she going for? I don't have an answer to that. She did get involved with another guy within a couple weeks after. About three weeks after leaving. So there was somebody else and then it was going to fix everything

and then it didn't. And then all of a sudden you realize what she lost, right? Yeah. For about three weeks after leaving. So there was somebody else and then it was going to fix everything and then it didn't. And then all of a sudden you realize what she lost, right? Yeah. So fast forward to, so when I sent in my submission originally, you know, my biggest concern was just feeling that anxiety from my new partner pulling away from me. Well, fast forward, you know, a week that uh, you know, said that it's not fair how she's treating me. She's distant and cold. She has a lot of stuff going on. It is what it is. Um, that put me into this, again, that spiral of anxiety. Uh, and then just last night, my ex-wife reaches out, out of the blue saying that she's made a terrible mistake.

So that's a whole other thing. So here's the deal. The anxiety's right. It remembered. Think of it as a GPS pin. Your body put a GPS pin in the moment that the woman you were married to after 20 years up and left you. It also put a GPS pin in you you didn't know what do you do

for a living police officer oh my gosh of god dude lead with that man so a guy who knows everything and shows up to the worst no one calls you because they're having a great day and you go and you have to solve these problems. You have to know what to do next. And you now have to know what to do next in very tense, uncomfortable situations that are being filmed and broadcast all over the world 24-7, 365. Yeah. And you missed it in your own house. Right?

Yeah, yeah. right yeah yeah your body puts a gps pin in something really scary which is jesse no longer trusts jesse and then you meet somebody new and your body is like man this feels good this is like a real human being she's beautiful she laughs she's funny and then it is hyper aware to take care of you to love you your body's doing its job when she starts to pull away she takes a little bit longer to respond to that text you know i don't know if you've been to detective academy but one thing they teach you in detective academy is walk into a room and exhale first and see if you can feel something that doesn't look right, doesn't feel right. Your body's doing that for you 24-7, 365. So I think the anxiety you feel is right on. I would be worried about you if this had happened and you were like, all right, cool,

on to the next. I would be like, man, you should probably go talk to somebody. Fair enough. The challenge for you is twofold. One, don't instantly try to make that anxiety go away, which getting back with your ex-wife tonight, because she would be warm and she'd be comfortable, would make that anxiety go away today. And you'll wake up tomorrow, dude, and it will be back with a vengeance. And you know that. I do, yeah. So head into the anxiety.

Feel it. Let it be a part of you. That sounds terrible. It is. But hey, it's like, dude, you don't go to the gym and take all the weight off the bar. You go to the gym

and put on as heavy as you can possibly lift. Why? Because there's strength on the other side of that. And it sucks. It's not fun. So when your body's trying to get your attention, head towards it. You do this for a living, man. You run to the fire.

You run at the shots. And no anxiety there whatsoever. No, because you've trained it a thousand million billion times. And you trust your training. And you trust your partners. But you don't trust Jesse anymore.

Wow. Fair? Yeah. So here's what I want you to do with it. One, I want you to hang on the line I'm going to send you a free copy, I'll mail it up there to Canada for you of my new Building a Non-Anxious Life book, okay it's got a road map to it

the second thing is I want you to begin to write down and every police officer I know, from my dad to my friends everyone I know, all the guys I've done patrol with they carry those little black notebooks. I want you to get a separate one just for you. And I want you to

write down when you start feeling anxious. She's not responding to my text. She's not doing this. She's not doing that. I'm doing it. I want you to write that crap down and get it out of your body. Okay. Later on at night, later on in the afternoon, when you get done working out, it's almost always better to do something physical before you start reviewing stuff

because your body state changes. But I want you to go to the gym, go for your walk, go for your exercises, get off shifts, whatever you need to do, and I want you just to take 30 minutes, 10 minutes, 5 minutes, look at that list you've written for the day and say, is this true? Is this true? Okay. Is she really avoiding me?

Maybe. Or maybe she had diarrhea when you texted, man. And she just, I made that weird. I'm sorry. But like, she had diarrhea and she just didn't have her phone with her. Thank God. I don't want to, you don't want to date somebody that has their phone with them while they have diarrhea. So like, maybe that's what happened.

Or maybe, nope, this is a pattern. This is a pattern. And yeah, we need to that's what happened. Or, maybe, nope, this is a pattern. This is a pattern. And, yeah, we need to have a hard conversation. Yeah. See what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm with you. And here's the last thing I want you to do. I want you to be really, really, really

honest with yourself. I have been unable to be honest with myself in this way without talking to somebody else. So, yes, I'm recommending that all of my police officer friends see a counselor, have some sort of person. I also recommend that if you can find somebody that's not in your precinct, that's not like, yeah, go talk to. Man, that's tough stuff because they got to keep notes, but you can go find somebody off the off the path. And obviously, if you need to get help, get help from wherever you need to get help from, right? And it's very precinct specific as to what

kind of care they provide. But once you go talk to somebody, have somebody that you can process this one important fact. What did I contribute in my first marriage? Because part of rebuilding trust with Jesse is owning reality, being honest with yourself. Man, I actually was married to my job more than I was married to my wife. I actually got home and after being the person that everyone in the neighborhood called, I also treated my wife like she was one of the callers.

Well, you need to do this, you need to do this. I often fill in the blank, fill in the blank, fill in the blank. What world did I create for my wife that ultimately she was like, I'm out. And dude, maybe nothing, but very rarely is it nothing. I'm confident you contributed something to that environment, to that world. And be honest about the signs that you missed. And here's what we're doing. We're letting our body know I'm driving again. I'm back in the driver's seat of my own life. This is building an unanxious life,

but this is dealing with anxiety. Don't run from it. Take those ruminating thoughts, write them down, get them out of your head. And then be really honest and reflective when you start owning reality. Choose reality. What role did I play in this thing?

And as you head into new relationships, man, knock your lights out. And by the way, to answer your last question, your kind of sidebar question, I don't have a problem with it if you decide to get married again, but go real, real slow. Really, really slow.

And don't use your ex-wife as a Xanax to not feel so anxious anymore. She didn't deserve that and you don't use your ex-wife as a Xanax to not feel so anxious anymore. She didn't deserve that. You don't either. Go slow. I'm grateful for you, brother. Thanks for your service, my man. Every day you're out there for us. Grateful for you. We'll be right back. It's time to talk about Organifi. All right, here's one of my main life goals I want to be as healthy as possible for as long as possible I want to be that old semi balding guy in the back of the mosh pit And I also want to be that old guy dancing with his beautiful wife into my 80s

And I want to be able to roll around with my grandkids in some WWE-style wrestling match into my 90s. And that's why right now I exercise, I work on my friendships, and I try to eat and drink things that only have safe, high-quality, high-integrity ingredients. And this is why I love Organifi. They're incredibly selective about what goes into their whole food blends. And Organifi gives you ingredients with integrity, plant-based, certified organic, vegan, dairy-free, soy-free, and glyphosate residue-free. By the way, that's a pesticide you don't want anywhere near you. And it's simple to get the health benefits with Organifi. You just mix with water or your favorite beverage and drink it down. You can take their green juice first thing in the morning

to balance stress and get ready for your day. And you can take Organifi Red Juice in the afternoon or before a workout for natural sustained energy and endurance. And I love my happy drops every day for natural mood support with saffron extract. Go to Organifi.com slash Deloney right now to save 20% off at checkout with code Deloney.

That's Organifi, O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I dot com slash Deloney and code Deloney for 20% off. All right, let's go out to Tampa, Florida and talk to Emily. What's up, Emily? Hi, Dr. John. I'm doing well. Awesome. What's happening? What's up? Yeah. So my question is how do I begin to enjoy my life outside of work? Essentially. Usually that has to do with, um, a wife outside of work that you don't enjoy? I mean, yeah, I don't know. So some context, I'm a teacher and I work, I mean, probably at least 60 hours a week doing that. And then I do some volunteer work and then I'm getting my education

master's degree. And so I'm just kind of always on the go. And then when I get home, I'm married and I do have a happy marriage. Of course, it has its ups and downs. But when I get home, I don't intend to feel this way, but I kind of just feel a sense of just blessed. I feel kind of hopeless and I don't enjoy anything. And it's not that I am looking to go back to work, but when I'm at work, I don't feel that way, essentially. Does it have to do with the fact that when you go to work as a teacher, which is what I've been, I've spent my whole career doing that, there's always going to be outliers, right? There's outliers in every job. There's goofballs in every job.

But on the whole, you go to work with a group of people who have a shared sense of purpose. We're going to change the lives of these kids. Sometimes it's we're going to provide these kids a safe place to go. Sometimes it's we're going to teach these kids and push them really hard because we think they're capable of more than they are. But you have a shared sense of optimism and we're going to take X and we're going to walk alongside people until it becomes Y. And then you go home and you don't share that same sense of,

I've got a partner in here, we're working on the thing together, and we're creating something amazing. And we're creating, it's X and we're creating Y. And so you get home and you just go, am I right or wrong? I could be wrong. No, you're completely right. That's not something I had ever thought about. My husband, he doesn't, right now he's actually not working at all, but, um, so he, I, you know, I've been thinking about it a lot this month at first, I was very frustrated

with him because I felt like he wasn't driven, right. He didn't, he wasn't interested in working. Um, but he, I've, I've realized now I think he's actually struggling from some kind of depression. Because even applying for jobs was very difficult for him. And I kind of took the lead on that. And now that he's gotten offered interviews, he's gotten a little bit more driven about it. Yeah, so I think there's something mentally going on there. I'm going to say this, and I mean it with all due respect in my soul. I'm trying to be kind and loving.

I don't care. He's got to get a job. Yeah. The damning nature of low-level dysthymia that, ugh, this sucks. I got fired, or I got laid off, or whatever. Did he quit, or did he get fired? What happened? He did quit. He was kind of miserable in his last job, so he did quit.

So there's just, you sit at home and you wait for motivation. You wait for the perfect thing. And it doesn't exist. You have to go manufacture it. And you manufacture it by go get a job. Yeah. And you don't quit a job unless you have another job. I don't care how miserable it is.

Even if it's, hey, I'm quitting this six-figure job, and I got a job stacking groceries because I got to do something to contribute, both for my psychology and my physiology, and for, like, we got to have money in this account. But it becomes this spiral that's really hard to get out of I hate this, I hate this, I hate this the alternative, I mean

the fantasy on the other side of that is my life will be so much better if not this and then you get home and blech and then it's well, it will only be good if it will only be good if and I'm only be good if, and I'm not good. And it turns into this just poison.

And here's what happens. You lose respect for your husband. Fair? Yeah. Just say it out loud. Yes. And I know it's hard to say out loud because I know you love him. I know he's a great guy. I'm not saying he's not a good guy.

Right. But it's hard to be optimistic. It's hard to build something. It's hard to have hope. And hope is just this idea that tomorrow is going to be a little bit better than today or maybe a lot better than today. It's hard to have hope when you don't have respect. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And for a while, you know, um, you know, I get home and I feel like my husband, he's on his phone a lot, even whenever he's off of work. And that just really frustrates me. And so I think you're correct in that, you know, don't apologize for your frustration, Emily. You should be frustrated. I'm frustrated for you. Yeah.

If he called my show and said, my wife is really frustrated with me and I don't think it's fair. I quit my job because I just hated it. And now I sit at home waiting for the right thing. I would have a hard time being compassionate to him. Yeah. And I would tell him, go find a job today. Any kind of job that that's going to be the step

forward to getting some sense in your body that that um uh like you start standing on your own feet again after being lost at sea yeah well something I've learned in the last you know five years of marriage is I can't make him. So what is your advice? How do I, you know, how do I help him? I think there's a couple. You're exactly right. And the fact that you learned this in the first five years means you are way ahead of most marriages, which is awesome.

It took me like 20 years to figure that out. All right. Here's a couple of things. One, I want you to spend some time being very honest with Emily. And right now you have been spent a lot of time being One, I want you to spend some time being very honest with Emily. And right now you have been spent a lot of time being a mother to your husband. And when you're a mom to your husband, I'm going to say this, I know it sounds gross. I've gotten some flack in the past, but I don't care. It's true. No mom wants to have sex with their son.

No mom wants to have intimate relations with their son outside of sex. No, you don't want to come home and have a third job or a fourth job after grad school and your service to your community and your never-ending teaching job. And your fourth job is caring for this giant infant adult. And I'll go one step further. If he does have some significant depressive issues, those are real. And maybe this isn't the moment for him to get a job.

This is the moment that he gets his butt into care. Just sitting at home on your phone is a no-go. And so I want you to be honest for the first time in a long time with, I want you to write down in a notebook, I've lost respect for my husband because I saw him face adversity and I saw him bow out. Because your body feels that. You got to be honest with yourself, okay? And I think you have to stop apologizing for being frustrated. Stop apologizing for feeling burnt out. You know what burnout is?

It's when your body says, I quit, because you're not getting the message. You're trying to carry the load of two people at your home and trying to create a home with a guy who has no interest in creating a home. Yeah. Right? That's a hard stuff. And the second step here is after you're honest with yourself and you write some of these things down and you're probably going to shock yourself with what you write down because it's going to be hard. The next step is not to go bomb him with these things. That's not fair to anybody, okay? What is fair is you sitting at the table and saying the following.

Here are the boundaries I'm drawing. Here's what I'm going to do moving forward. I am gonna go see a counselor because I have a husband that refuses to get work. I am going to fill in the blank. If I come home and you have not applied for a single job today and you've sat here on your phone, I am going to take myself out to dinner. See what I'm saying? This is not bombing him with, you need to do this, you need to do this, because that hasn't worked. It's not going to work. It's you being very clear about here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to take care of myself. I'm going to go to the gym. I'm going to continue to work hard. I'm going to begin to eat a little healthier. I'm not going to wallow around and be mad at you and then be mad at myself for being mad at you. You know that spiral I'm talking about?

You're like, yeah, I live that all the time. I threw a lot at you. Tell me what you're feeling on the way back. Um, yeah, I think I, I'm feeling, um, I don't know. I feel like I'm, I'm a little worried that it's nothing's going to change okay but nothing's changing yeah yeah yeah um you know and and as you're mentioning i think these are great steps just to take care of me because that's really all i can do i know that um and hopefully yeah hopefully he'll get the message but yeah we've had conversations before where you know i talk with him and we kind of go over plans that we had when

we first got married. And, and then it, by the end of it, I feel like we're in agreement. And then, you know, six months down the road, I look back and nothing's changed. Well, and have you sat down and said, I feel like you have not been honest with me. I feel unloved in this home. What do you mean? I love you and I always want to have sex with you and I've had four beers. What do you mean?

And you can say, because we made some agreements. And you've chosen to not uphold your end of those agreements, which leaves me all alone. Yeah. And those are scary conversations because here's why he might say well screw you then I'm out but right now he said screw you I'm in

fair yeah no that makes sense I guess the the hardest thing for you is you don't have an easy path forward. Yeah. You have a, I'm going to say nothing and just continue this thing on and hope he gets a job and hope it solves all his problems. It will not, Emily.

Within six months, he's going to tell you he hates this job and it's killing him and the boss is an idiot and his coworkers are morons and he's going to quit. I'm telling you right now. Or you can have a really hard, hard series of conversations, not about what he needs to fix, but about what you're going to do. What do I do in the case that he, because sometimes he'll get really frustrated and say, you know, oh, all these things that I do for you, I thought, you know, you loved me. Are you telling me that X, Y, and these things that I do for you, I thought, you know, you loved me.

Are you telling me that X, Y, and Z doesn't mean anything to you? Like he can get kind of defensive like that. What would you recommend I do? Yeah, that's how children respond, right? Which is like, well, then I'm taking my ball and going home. Here's what you can say. You can say, I hear that you've chosen to try to love me in ways that you like, that you can say. You can say, I hear that you've chosen to try to love me in ways that you like.

That make, that you have chosen. I'm telling you what I need to feel loved in this home, in this marriage. Oh, so if I just make dinner for you. I never asked you to make dinner. That's a choice you made. I did ask you to get a job. I did ask you if you're not working and you're just sitting here that when we get home the house is cleaned

up and you're not just sitting there on your phone playing video games. Right? Because that's just all that is is a look over here. Look over here. Look over here. Look over here. It's just a distraction. And here's, guys do it a lot. Women do it too.

But guys do it a lot with, oh, I'm working all day. It was when my wife told me, I'm not asking you to do that. Yeah. I'm asking you to be here with me. Because I had the opposite problem. I was working 24 hours a day, 365. It was the opposite issue. And when I would come at her with what your husband does, just the opposite.

Oh, I do this and this and this. And she's like, dude, I never asked for any of that. I asked for you. And then I was like, oh crap, I don't know how to do that. And then it was me. Cause I said, I do. I had to go figure out that set of skills and I had to go learn it and figure it out. Similarly on the other side. Oh I do this and this and this. That's not what I asked. I asked that we build something together. And you said I do. And you said I'm in. And you're not.

So here's what I'm going to do. But if somebody throws those little temper tantrum-y things. Oh you're just ungrateful. No. No I'm talking about. It's just distraction. Just distraction. And you may have to walk away from the table

and say, hey, I'm going to come back to this conversation. I'm going to come back in 30 minutes because right now you're acting, you're talking to me as though I'm seven and I'm not. I'm going to come back in 30 minutes. Let's reconvene.

It's hard. I don't envy you. But to your husband, if he's listening, you have to get a job. You got to go work. And if you can't work, I know those people. I've sat with them. Fine. You got to go get help. You got to go see somebody. You got to go check yourself into an inpatient clinic. You have to do the work. Just sitting at home on your phone is not a solution, particularly while your wife is working 60 hours a week plus grad school plus serving the community. Enough. Be somebody worthy of being respected in your own home. Sure, quit a toxic job. I've had to do it. You've had to do it. Fine. But don't quit that job for nothing. For a couple of months on the couch with a cell phone, no. Quit that job and go work at a coffee shop. Quit that job and start driving Uber that night.

Quit that job and go sling boxes at Walmart on the overnight shift for $25 an hour tonight. And then apply for jobs when you're not sleeping. You can't think your way out of these things on a couch with a cell phone. Look around at our culture. We're drowning. And I'm just going to think my way out of this on a couch with a cell phone. You have to go do. Emily, thanks for the call.

Call anytime. I have a feeling these conversations get harder before they get better. I want you to be honest with yourself. You only have two hard choices moving forward. Hard to let things just be the same way they are and continually not respect this man-child that you're married to

or decide, I'm Emily and I'm worth more than this. I'm worth being loved. I'm worth a home and a marriage that I can fight for, that I love. I'm going to have that hard conversation. Either way, your path forward is hard. I say take the one that's going to result in a possibility of healing and change. We'll be right back. All right, we're back.

Let's go out to Kate in Philadelphia. You're born and raised. What's up, Kate? Hey, Dr. John. How are you? We're doing good. How about you? Doing well.

Thank you so much. And just a huge thanks to you guys and your team. I'm really grateful for your show. Thank you. I'm glad that you were in our gang, man. It's awesome to have you. What's up? Well, I am a little embarrassed, slightly nervous. I have a weird question. Hopefully it's normal. But I'm a person who I talk to myself a lot. And most of the time, not most of the time, some of the time it's in my head, some of the time it's out loud. And I don't really realize I'm doing it until I'm already talking out loud. And it's, it can be embarrassing when I'm around other people and not really realizing it until it's already happening. And so I don't know if that's normal or what I can do to help that,

or, you know, it's just, it's a thing that happens in my world and was like ah i need some help with this yeah i mean there's there's a lot of things to pull apart here i i i don't i don't like thinking in terms of is this normal or not there's a bell curve right there's this idea that given a hundred people, 85 of them will do X on a regular basis, semi-regular basis and seven over here, we'll do this in eight over here. Like I get that. I like to think of these kinds of things more in terms of,

I'm assuming that the talk you you're talking is not nice. Yeah, probably not. Okay. So if you were just like talking about your grocery list out loud that i can't imagine that would cause you a lot of stress my guess is you are pretty mean to yourself and occasionally you find yourself talking out loud like god you suck you idiot like right and you're finding yourself in a public space kind of and people are like who are you so angry at is that more like it yeah yeah i

think it's it's a combination of that and then it's also like moments when i felt embarrassed about something that i did or behavior or like conversations that i should have or things that i should have said and conversations i had with other people you know that type of thing yes uh the rumination we love it totally yeah if you just think about it enough, you can actually go back in time and change what happened. So yes. I figured that might be the case. Keep doing that. All right. So I like to think of it instead of, is this normal or not normal? As my body chooses to deal with uncomfortable situations like this, and I would like to teach you a different way of handling it. Period. Okay. And one of those is, I can't believe I'm so not normal. This is so weird.

And then your body, like just saying that my shoulders went up around my ears a little bit and I got a little tense saying, I'm not normal. I got to fix this versus my body handles stress like this and I don't like it. And so I want to do something different. One of those is infinitely more compassionate and curiosity driven. And one is more judgmental. You stupid moron. You start in a hole on one of them, right?

Have you ever been diagnosed with OCD? No, I've never been formally diagnosed with anything, but it would not surprise me, I guess. Tell me about your ruminating thoughts. Yeah, it's pretty broad. I kind of ruminate a lot on a lot of different topics, but I think it's kind of acute stressors, right? So if I have a negative interaction with someone at work, I do a lot of management of people

and personalities. And so if I have a negative interaction at work, I'll kind of ruminate on that conversation and what I could have done better, or, you know, just sort of, um, any of any aspect of that. Um, and you know, any, any other sort of, I guess, interaction with people or scenarios where I wish I would have done something different. Um, but why do you wish you would have done something different?

Where does that, like, I'm trying to drill down to the judgment part. Why do you wish, like when you say it's so embarrassing to who, do people actually comment to you or no, they've been noticed because they're staring in their own world. That's fair. Um, I think it's, it's, yeah, I think it's mostly my own stuff. I think there's certainly some personalities in my life, um, that, you know, well, no matter what sort of have, uh, their own personal view of me,

which I obviously also cannot control, but, um, you know, I just, I know that they've used me, they view me through a certain lens. And so I just, it makes me frustrated. But for the most part, it's just my own self-judgment, for sure. So why don't you like you? That's a great question. I think I really do like me. I've done a lot of self-work and really spent the last decade or so learning how to love myself.

And so that's been great, but it's still, you know, always a work in progress. Um, I think it's just, have you learned to love yourself or have you learned to, um, um, act right? Yeah, I did. There's 100% a factor of that. you know i definitely know that there's certain ways to be um but i think it's a combination of both like i said i think it's still a work in progress for me and that sort of self-acceptance in those moments where it's you know where i am ruminating and thinking gosh i wish i would have done something differently there's also that quiet quieter voice but it's saying you know, you're normal. You're human. Everybody messes up or there's no such thing as perfect. So that is a small voice in

the head as well. All right. I'm going to give you a couple of tools that I think can transform your whole life. Okay. For real. Yeah. I'm going to write down a quick note to myself Alright So that way I don't forget it I want you to internalize this With all of your might Okay Rumination is a complete and utter waste of your time Yeah Okay

And so here's the problem Rumination feels like important thinking Helpful thinking Yeah okay It feels like we are replaying thinking. Yeah, okay. Right? It feels like we are replaying this thing, and next time we're going to fill in the blank. Right. Problem is we never get to the next time.

Right. We get to the what we did wrong, why we suck, why we could have done it better, and then we just park in that just swimming pool of shame. We just sit in it. Yeah, fair. So there's a difference between rumination and reflection. Reflection is a critically important part of being a healthy human. And reflection is simply a, it's got, it's this, it's about looking to the past, the good and the bad, likes and dislikes, and then tangibly planning for how things are going to be different in the

future. Okay. For instance, like I had a meeting with my boss. Man, I was awkward. I started stuttering. And then when I started stuttering, I started speaking really fast and I wasn't fully prepared. That was annoying. So next time I have a meeting with the boss, I'm going to be very prepared. That's reflection. Rumination is, I can't believe that. Right now he's sitting at home thinking i can't believe i hired this freaking moron i gotta find a new person and in your body

goes to war it goes to fight or flight but you know why because it thinks it's about to get fired or it thinks it's about to not have a home or a car or food. And so you start spinning up. I should have said this. I'm going to tell him this thing. You couldn't tell him this thing because you're an idiot. And it's just this. It's a chorus of voices yelling at you that sound like one united voice. That's a total complete waste of your time.

Rumination is trying to change something in the past by going over it and over it and over it and over it again, or it's trying to change something in the future that hasn't even happened yet. Right. It's a waste of time. It's like, it's practice. Brene Brown calls it dress rehearsing tragedy. Right. So how do you stop it in that moment where you say, when you're trying to be more reflective, reflective as opposed to ruminating, when you say, for example, to use your example,

you know, I had a bad meeting with my boss and I want to do this differently next time. I'm going to be better prepared next time. How do you like, because when I think through that process, my body then immediately goes into the next step, which is the shame process,

you know, all of that. And so how do you stop your body in that shame process, you know, all that. And so how do you stop your body in that moment? I don't think it does. And let it go. I don't think it does. I think when you sit down and go, man, that was not a good meeting. I wasn't prepared. And you can, I'm going to give you the ultimate trick here in a second. And it's not a hack, or a trick, but it is, it's neuroscience and it's magic. Okay. But there's a difference between saying that did not go like I wanted it to. I feel bad about how it went.

I feel sad. I feel ashamed of how I acted in that meeting. That's fair. That's fair. I'm going to let my body feel that because that's right. And then I'm going to pull out a piece of paper. I carry a note card with me or I've got my little journal with me. I'm going to make sure next time I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. I make a plan and it's very short. And then I'm moving on.

It's the rumination. It's the, when you start creating stories on top of the story. Right. And well, I wasn't prepared. Well, I can't be prepared if the boss is always making me also do all these other things. And by the way, Jennyny never does her work and so i've got to do hers too so of course i don't have time now we're in fight or flight now your body's pulsing with cortisol and adrenaline it is not thinking clearly it is in survival mode right and i feel like it's unstopped like it feels like it's a train that can't be stopped when it starts you know and it almost feels like i come out of a daze right you are afterwards yeah so every um peter levine's done some some really exquisite work on this You know, and it almost feels like I come out of a daze, right? You are. Like I wake up afterwards. Yeah.

So every, Peter Levine's done some really exquisite work on this. That fight or flight is designed to run from a tiger or to fight a tiger or to try to kill somebody who's stealing your mate, right? Or your child. Yeah. And so it pumps your body full of these chemicals. And in our modern world, we just go, and then we type an email response, right? And so that danger you're talking about is it's biochemical. It's real. The only way that I have found to cycle out of it is to go for, I go rucking. I put some weights in a heavy backpack, a go-ruck bag, and take off down the road, or I go for a walk. I've got some rules now in my personal life. I don't respond to things

while I'm engaged, while I'm mad, while I'm frustrated, because I'm not thinking rationally at all, at all, right? So yes, that coming out of that daze, you're exactly right. Your body's got to metabolize that stress response. That's why every major religion or culture has dances as a part of it, tribal movements as a part of it, because your body knows, hey, we just had a fight or flight situation and we survived. Let's all celebrate this thing together. See what I'm saying saying you're not crazy now i'm gonna give you um something that has been transformative for me and i want you to read this book it's by

ethan cross k-r-o-s-s and the book is called chatter okay and last i looked he was at university of michigan he um studies that voice in your head that never shuts up. Okay. And it's a tool I took from him that has been transcendent for me. And here's the idea. There is a neural pathway for I, for me, and there is a different neural pathway for you, y'all. So think about this. One of your employees comes to you and says, hey, my marriage is falling apart and I did this thing. I don't know what to do next. You very clearly can go, well, Dan, you should fill in the blank. And your body doesn't get activated, doesn't run off into the woods. But when you think I screwed up my marriage, I did this, I'm a piece of whatever.

Now your body's got to defend itself because it's at war. So what Dr. Cross suggests is begin talking to yourself in the third person. And he gave some examples in the book about, you hear interviews with athletes and they'll say, like LeBron James will be being interviewed and he'll be like, well, on that court, LeBron James decides. And most of us roll our eyes at that.

What he is suggesting is, no, no, no, no, that is a different person. That is a person who takes shots. It's a person who misses shots. That's the kind of person who does this kind of work. So what I've started doing is saying, here's a good example. Somebody hit my car while I was in it the other day.

A woman was coming to her fancy BMW, parked right next to me. I just pulled in. I was meeting my wife and daughter for a movie. And this woman opens, we made eye contact as she opened her door and just bammed my car door and then she kind of like made like a And got in her car And her husband was with her and a teenage son was with her and dude i'm telling you I was it was the holidays

I was tired. I've been traveling I went full defcon. I was tired. I've been traveling. I went full DEF CON. I was enraged. And I got out of the car and looked at the dent. And I looked at her and she rolled down the window and goes, what, did I do something? And I said, yes, you hit my car. We both watched you hit my car. And then she goes up and I said, look, and there sizable dent kate And she said I didn't do that

I was distracted. I I was I was distracted as though and here's the thing. I was just thinking in my head. Just say sorry It's a stupid car. I don't care. Just say sorry And then I happened to glance back and her son is her teenage son, he was big, a big boy, like my size, and he looked ashamed for his mom, and in that moment, I locked the car door, and I said to myself, John, let's walk away,

because if somebody had come up to me on the street and said, hey, this lady in this car, door dings your car, and she's hollering, it's about to cause a situation, and she's got an embarrassed, I would say, dude, just walk away, it's a dent in your car, right? John, though, wants husband to get out of the car, and me and him are going to settle this in the parking lot, right? And I want your insurance, and you're replacing my whole door panel, and I had a right to that, I have a legal right to have a new door panel.

But when I talked to John, I would say, dude, just walk away. Your daughter's in there. Y'all are going to watch a movie together. Y'all have a daddy-daughter date. Go. See what I'm saying? Yeah. And so talking to John, I stay present because I treat other people way nicer than I treat myself. Totally. Right. So I want you to practice, Kate, writing these things down. Get them out of your head. Number one. Number two, you've probably heard me talk about this on the show. Maybe it's been a while.

I will often, I don't do it much anymore, but I used to do it all the time. When I was trying to break this bad habit, I would yell in my house, no, real loud. And what I was doing was I was stopping the imaginary conversations that i was having all the time right i just stopped i'm gonna break it i'm gonna go nope as soon as i remember it as soon as i realize i'm doing this nope nope nope my wife would just roll her eyes she would just be like oh my gosh my husband's talking to himself again and i would break it. And then I would say to myself, this has no value. Right.

None. Yeah. Then I would ask myself, do I need to do something different? That's it. And here it is. Your body simply responding to the stress of your life by replaying things over and over again. And ultimately that leaks out into you talking to yourself

in some pretty ugly ways. And you just have to decide, I want to teach my body a different way of dealing with stress. Right. And I'm going to practice that. And then the third thing I want you to do is start talking to yourself in the third person. Okay. Kate had a conversation with the boss. It didn't go well.

Well, Kate, what'd you learn? I need to be more prepared. All right. Next time, Kate, you're going to be more prepared. That is such a different conversation than I suck, I screwed it up again. And then what Kate says, but I always mess this up. And you're like, yeah, Kate, you've messed up a bunch, but from now on, you're not going to mess up anymore.

And here's what, Kate, here's what we're going to do. You see what I'm saying? I do, yeah, I do. And I can't wrap my head around how big of a difference it makes And here's what, Kate, here's what we're going to do. You see what I'm saying? I do, yeah, I do. And I can't wrap my head around how big of a difference it makes by creating this psychological distance between me and my threat response system. It's pretty profound. I may see if we can get Ethan Cross on the show. I'd love for him, if he's in Nashville, I'd love for him to be on the show.

Dr. Cross, if you're here, join the show. That'd be awesome. But that particular piece of his work has been really important for me. Because again, I treat other people so much nicer than I treat myself. So if I start talking to myself with some space, it allows me to make errors. It allows me to be forgiving. It allows me to be curious. John, why'd you just get mad at your eight-year-old daughter? She's eight. Well, because of this and this.

Well, maybe you should just not eat that. Maybe you should get some sleep. And maybe you should go tell your daughter you're sorry. That's different than I suck at being a dad and I'm the worst and I... Nah. So try it. Try it. It's neuroscience.

It's not just woo-woo. But give it a whirl. Grateful for you, Kate. Call anytime. We'll be right back. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, we are back. And hey, hopefully you recognize at the beginning of the show.

Wait, is this the right show? Did I get the wrong podcast? No, we've got new music that was performed and really written by the great Jason Raines, a good friend of ours who's in the band My Weekly Low. And hopefully he's in our band again this year, although he's pretty good, so he may bail on us. But he's an incredible producer and writer and performer.

And, dude, I'm really grateful that he came up with some tunes. I was like, dude, I want some old school, like, Limp Bizkit jams. With some modern twist. And he was like, got you. Actually, I didn't say that at all. I didn't say that one little bit hey in honor of the great and wonderful jenna and her new baby kelly who is the second largest taylor swift fan on planet earth she actually has swifty tattooed across the top of her chest right across her uh collarbones in old english Super awkward when she wears her tank tops,

which she wears all the time. You can just see it like this is Swifty across the top. But in honor of Jenna, the number one fan, song today is called Willow by the great Taylor Swift. And it goes like this. I'm like the water when your ship rolled in that night. Rough on the surface, but you could cut through like a knife. And if it was an open and shut case, I would never would have known from the look on your face.

Lost in your current like a priceless wine. The more that you say, the less I know. Wherever you stray, I follow. I'm begging for you to take my hand. Wreck my plans. That's my man. That's actually the exact thing that Kelly wrote to me when she asked to be the producer of this show. And it worked out.

Wrecking plans. Love you guys.