The Dr. John Delony Show - Ryan Michler on True Masculinity

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Today, we’ve invited Ryan Michler—veteran, author and founder of Order of Man—to the show for an awesome conversation on what manliness and masculinity means in today’s world. Visit https://www.orderofman.com for more Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Churchill Mortgage Resources: Questions for Humans Conversation Cards Redefining Anxiety Quick Read John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately.

On today's show, I have a special guest, Ryan Mickler from the Order of Man podcast is here to talk about masculinity, toxic masculinity, manliness, raising sons, raising daughters, being married, how to be a better version of you. Stay tuned. Yo, what up, what up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney show. So good to see you and hear

you. I'm not doing either of those things, but I hope you are doing so good. So good. I've been out for a few weeks and it is fantastic to be back. I've been missing everybody. Of weeks and it is fantastic to be back. I've been missing everybody. Of course, Kelly didn't even bother to show up today. Jenna's here.

So good to see you, Jenna. James is here as always. And by always, I mean always. 2022 is going to be all positivity towards James Child's Way. You look great. Did you have a good holiday? I did. Excellent.

And you? Eh. You sound a little like you're getting over something. Did you have a good holiday? I did Excellent And you? Eh You sound a little Like you're getting over something I don't know why we gotta talk about that It was It was a hard break But we're back

Jack My uh Little Heart rate variability My heart rate variability Got so bad over the break I Yeah it wasn't great

But now we're back Now we are back in Better than ever. I don't know what that means. We're probably not. But hey, listen, on today's show, our first show back, dude, I am so excited. We've got a great guest. We're going to have an interview today with Ryan Mickler from the Order of Man podcast. Ryan is a veteran. He has worked in the financial industry. He's got four kids, three sons, and an incredible little daughter. He's been married. He has run the gamut. And he

started about seven years ago, Order of Man Podcast, just having conversations about how to be a better husband, how to be a better dad. And he noticed that his friends, guys who were coming back from Iraq, guys who he was working with, were all having these similar conversations with each other. And so he started a podcast. And it has become one of the biggest podcasts in the world. And I'm so grateful that he came to Nashville to spend some time with us on our show. We talk about toxic masculinity, what that actually means, what masculinity is, raising sons, raising daughters, how to be married. We talk about guns.

We talk about hunting. We talk about hunting. We talk about everything, all of it. And talk about the difference between vulnerability and, you know, vulnerability versus humility versus honesty. We talk about everything. It's a great conversation. Maybe a great conversation for couples to have, to listen to together. Be great conversations for parents and their kids to listen to.

So, stay tuned. I'm glad you're here. Stay tuned for my conversation with the one and only Ryan Mickler. How long have you lived in Maine? Almost three years. No, two and a half years. What took you there?

Adventure. Really? Yeah, that's it. My wife and I and our four children lived in southern Utah and... I just went to southern Utah. That place is stunning. Where were you? I flew into...

Was it St. George? St. George, yeah. I flew into Vegas and I was doing an event there and I drove up through... I'd never been there. Did you go to Zion? Maybe. The National Park. You would know. No, I didn't go to Zion. Okay. It was... It's amazing. One of the most beautiful places I've ever been. Red Rock everywhere. Oh National Park. You would know. No, I didn't go to Zion. Okay. It was. It's amazing. One of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

Red Rock everywhere. It was a great time of year. I mean, it was just stunning, man. So we lived in Hurricane, which is at the base of Zion National Park, just outside, just 15 minutes from St. George. Okay. And that's where people usually, when they make a big life shift and say, I want to go have adventure, they go there.

They go to St. George. Y'all went from there. Yeah, so what took you to Maine? So I went up there. You were commenting on my origin boots and jeans. My friend, Pete Roberts, is the founder and owner of Origin. That dude's like an American hero, man. He's incredible.

Yeah. Incredible. Is he for real? For real, yes. But in what sense are you talking? Like he's a, like he's one of the best people on the planet. Every single person I've ever met who's talked about that guy has said he's one of the best people on the planet.

And that he oozes. I think that I can help America. He does. Like that is, that's a, that's not a slogan. That's not a play. That's not marketing. That's not brand. I mean, he is a marketer.

That's his background. It's marketing. But he's got to sell. So he's good at it. He's got to sell his product. But yeah. Yeah. He's good a slogan. That's not a play. That's not a play. That's not marketing. That's not brand. I mean, he is a marketer. That's his background. It's marketing. So he's good at it. He's got to sell his product, but yeah. Yeah, he's good at it, but he believes it. Man. He believes, and so much so that, because we talk just about every day. Yeah.

And I train jujitsu with him and everything else. You're a jujitsu guy too? I've been training for a little over three years. Man. You train jujitsu? I did for years, and I haven't in a while. Yeah. I haven't in a long over three years. Man. You do, you train jujitsu? I did for years and I haven't, I haven't in a while. Yeah. I haven't in a long, embarrassing while.

It's so weird because I really love jujitsu, but I'll be gone, you know, for a week or two. Even, even now, you know, I'm out of town for three days. I'll go back and I love it. And it's still hard at times to go back in, but I love it. Yeah. So anyways, yeah. So I knew Pete, he invited me up to one of his jujitsu camps. And I went up there and just fell in love with the area.

My wife and I had been talking about maybe making a move and just kind of adventuring and seeing the country a little bit. So I was showing her videos and pictures. She's like, yeah, it's fall in Maine. It's beautiful. Let's go back in the winter. So I'm like, okay. So we did. Pete invited us out there and we stayed with – he's got a little Airbnb above his dojo, his jujitsu dojo.

And my wife and I went out there and she fell in love with it. So we did the only logical thing you should do, which is buy a house. Absolutely. So that was my second visit to Maine. It was her first and she got a real estate agent. I'm like, wait, what? You got a real estate agent? She's like, yeah, we might as estate agent. I'm like, wait, what? You got a real estate agent?

She's like, yeah, we might as well look. I'm like, okay. And we looked at probably, I don't know, a dozen houses, maybe not that many. And we came down this road and saw this big, beautiful house on the corner. I thought it was like a bed and breakfast or a motel or something. And our real estate agent pulls in there. And before we even get in the house, my wife's like, we'll take it. And I'm like, well, hold up.

We might want to see it, you know? And so our real estate agent said that they were entertaining backup offers. They already had an offer in on the place. So we put a backup. So we went inside and I saw the barn. It's got this huge four or 5,000 square foot barn. And I'm like, we'll take it. Done, man.

Yeah. And so we went and saw the rest of the house and the people that owned it before us did a beautiful job remodeling it and restoring it to the way it would have looked in the early 1900s. Wow. And so, yeah, we put an offer in on it and then spent the next six months, you know, getting our financial affairs in order, getting the kids packed up, getting our house packed up and then drove to Maine. It was funny. We actually drove before we even closed on the house. I told the lady

we were buying it from. I'm like, okay, we're driving. Here's where we're going. She's like, yeah, just stay in the house until we close. I'm like,

I don't know. I'm like, what if we move up here? We spent all that money and time packing and then she backs out of the deal or whatever and we've become actually friends

at this point. With the original owner? Yeah. Wow, man. What a crazy adventure. My wife and I did something similar. Not quite as crazy, but from Texas to Nashville.

Just said, it's time. Is that right? And we've got two little kids and if we're going to do it, let's do it. And let's go have an adventure. How's it been? It's been the greatest. When was that?

Four years ago now. Okay. Three and a half years ago. Three and a half years ago. Not too long before either. Yeah, yeah. Just it felt right. I think more people need to do now. Okay. Three and a half years ago. Three and a half years ago. Not too long before I did. Yeah, yeah. Just it felt right. I think more people need to do that.

Absolutely. You got to cut ties and go find out who you are and what you're about and you've got to, it distills your values down real quick. Yeah. Well, and you know,

a lot of people, they're, you know, I've had a lot of people say, well, you know, I wish I could do that. I really wanted to do that and I wish I could.

Do it. But I have friends and I have this. Yeah, I had all that stuff too. I did too, man. I had a lot of people say, well, you know, I wish I could do that. I really wanted to do that and I wish I could. Do it. But I have friends and I have this. Yeah, I had all that stuff too. I did too, man. I had a group of guys I hung out with every Monday night for like 20 years. Of course. You do it. Right.

And you can always go back. Actually, that's what I thought. I thought when we moved to Maine, I thought we're going to be out here for a couple of years, two, three years. And then after that, we'll just move back home. Like we'll have our adventure. I don't my wife i was talking with her um in the spring and that's her that's her time because the garden and the bees and she does a lot of homesteading type stuff and i said what do you think about are they yeah it's like what are you thinking about being out here she's like i'm never moving back to utah

wow yes her family's all there so they all of scattered, and that's why we even contemplated moving. And then as soon as we left, they all moved back. So I thought maybe it's us. No, it's not us. It's you. It's me. It's not her. It's not her, and it's not the kids.

That's right. It's you. You know, anytime, hey, do you want to come back? Like, if Ryan's busy, it's okay. Like, if he has work, he doesn't have to come. So you've – tell us about your previous life. You were in the service. How long were you in?

Yeah, eight years. I was in the National Guard. Okay. So I did eight years. The last two years of my eight were spent activated. I was deployed to Iraq in 2005 through 2006 in Ramadi, which is where Jocko – I know he's – you guys did an event together. So I was in Ramadi, which is where Jocko, I know he's, you guys did an event together. So I was in Ramadi 2005, 2006.

And, you know, I was doing other stuff at the time because it was National Guard up until that workup. And I was doing retail management. Okay. So clothing, buckle up, journey shoe store. Yeah, dude. Yeah, doing all that. Very cool. I came back and changed courses quite a bit though.

So you come back and then what happens? So my wife and I, because I was newly married when I left Iraq. I think we were married for like six months or so. Oh, wow. It was crazy. Was it a surprise deployment or did you know it was coming? I didn't know it was coming. You know, there was a likelihood that we would.

Sure. And so my section chief calls me up. This must have been the day before Thanksgiving in 2004. Yeah, 2004. He calls me up. He's like, hey, we're being deployed. I'm like, what? Like could you have waited a day or two to tell me?

And so he's like, well, I could have, but like, I felt obligated to tell you as soon as I found out. So I, I went, uh, Trish and I, my wife and I were in, uh, in California at the time. She went back to Utah to see her family. I stayed because I had black Friday. So I was going to go just spend the day in Utah. So I drove up there. We're sitting at dinner, Thanksgiving dinner. And I guess I'm off a little bit. Cause I just get this news. I hadn't told my wife yet and my father-in-law no joke says what's wrong with you did your unit get deployed or something oh man and he had no idea i don't know why he would say that he said a weight on you huh must have yeah and i said uh in front of the whole family uh including my wife who i hadn't told yet um actually yeah i am wow so I am. Wow. So yeah, I left. And then, uh, you were asking me what I did when I got back. So we decided we didn't want to move back to California and do the retail stuff.

So on a, on a leave while I was over in Iraq, um, my father and mother-in-law introduced me to, uh, a financial advisor. He was looking for, for two new advisors at the time. So I actually took all of my licensing, my study materials for insurance and investment exams back to Iraq with me. And then when I got back, I took the exams and started down that path. Wow. Yeah, man. And then what got you slowly over time, you got interested in talking about men and just looking around, I guess you got little kids. How old are your kids?

I've got 13. I'm going to mess this up. 13, 11, 8, and 5. Oh, man, you got a gang. Yeah, we got a good crew, man. It's awesome. So you got interested in, I got a 12 and a 6. Okay, yeah.

You got interested in looking around your communities and saying, what is happening? Yeah, I wish it was like that. That would have been way better? Yeah. Tell me how you got there. I wish it was like that. Okay. That would have been way better. Okay. Tell me how you got here. For me, it was like, what is happening with me?

I suck at this. Okay. At being a dad? At being a dad, at being a husband, at being a business owner. Like I just wasn't getting it. Yep. And then my wife and I actually, not long after I got back from Iraq, we actually went through a separation and we eventually reconciled

and now we're happily married and we have four kids. But I started talking with a lot of guys a little bit about my situation, didn't have a dad growing up, went through the separation with my wife. And I mean, story after story after story of guys who felt the exact same way, who had had the exact same experience. And so I had started doing podcasting with my financial planning practice.

So that was – I enjoyed the medium of podcasting, but I was done with the financial conversations. So I said, you know, I'm going to pivot and I'm going to start talking about some of these men's issues because I want to talk with guys that I'm inspired by so I can look selfishly so I can learn and I don't really have any value to add to these guys. So maybe if I make it a podcast and I can tell them I'm going to promote it to my audience, who's like my mom, you know, I didn't tell him that, Hey, I only have one person listening, but I will promote it to her. I promise you. And so, you know, the rest is history. That was almost seven years ago.

Wow. Crazy. And now you've, I mean, it's caught fire. There's totally millions of men saying, dude, let's have this conversation. Yeah. Because it's not being had, right? Well, yeah.

And, you know, like there's a lot of things that we've done right for sure. But I think the growth of what we've done is more a testament to the fact that nothing like this is out there and men want to have these conversations. And up until relatively recently, you know, we've, we've been very communal in nature, men organizing in tribes. Right.

And, and we just don't have that anymore outside of military services, a lot like that football or any sports military services, a lot like that. Football or any sports, competitive sports is a lot like that. And then, you know, I played football and baseball in high school, but I wasn't good enough to progress past that. So that went away. Then I went to the military. Well, that ended. So then, you know, you don't have anything.

And you talked about you didn't have a model. Tell me about growing up. Yeah, so my dad and mom split when I was about three years old. Okay. Um, you know, my dad, he's a good man. Um, he made a, he made a lot of mistakes. Um, he got into drugs and got into alcohol. And, uh, unfortunately, no, that relationship didn't work out. We always had a relationship and, um, unfortunately he's passed away now. But yeah, my mom got remarried a couple of different times. And one of my stepdads was an alcoholic, never abusive, but an alcoholic and never really liked him. I don't know why I look back. I'm like, why didn't I like him? I don't know why. He's just like, I didn't like him. So we had a hard time. And then I had another stepfather who was verbally and emotionally abusive.

Never really directed at me, but more towards my mom and my sister. And the way that ended was wild. That ended with my mom and me and my sister getting in the Bronco that he had disabled. He had – I don't know exactly what he did. I think he took the battery, the cable off the battery, the terminal. And so my mom,

but for whatever, the truck wouldn't start. She's like, get in the car, we're leaving. The truck wouldn't start. And she popped it and knew exactly what to do.

So I think it had happened before. Wow. And so she starts to back up. Well, he runs out of the house and tries to close the garage door. She crashes through the garage door. How old are you?

15. Wow. 15, 16 years old. And we're driving down the road, and he's running by the side of the vehicle on the passenger side, and he's, like, banging on my window. And I did the only thing I really knew to do. Like, I just punched the window. I hit it once, and I saw it, thing I really knew to do. Like I just punched the window. I hit it once and I saw it like kind of go

and I hit it again and it just shattered on the ground and we ended up going to St. George. Yeah. And he was like, my stepfather was checking all the hospitals because, you know, I punched that window and my hand was kind of mangled and bloody and stuff. I still got the scars to show it. But, yeah, I didn't have a great example.

Yeah, man. You know, so when I became a dad, a husband first, and then a father, it was like, I don't know what to do. Yeah. I was lost. And you find, what I find with most men is they know exactly what sucked about their childhood and they start to replay it. Yeah.

It's the only picture they got. I know. And isn't that weird? You find yourself saying stuff or doing stuff and you're like, what? You know what I mean? And you know it. Because you hate it. But it's all you know.

Yeah. And it's all your body knows, really. Yeah. It's a bi thing. So getting into, so you talk about men, masculinity, which is, here's, we're talking offline about charting a third course here. Yeah. When I hear the word masculinity, so I spent years and years in grad school in counseling. So I hear a lot of toxic masculinity, that, that word, right? Yeah. Masculinity is destroying everything. And it's things that aren't even anthropologically correct, right?

That we just made it up a few years ago. Right. And then you get the other side, which is what I would consider equally damaging is this almost celebration of Neanderthal, like of just complete idiots. Yeah. And I struggle with finding a path in the middle here. And it looks like you have. So walk me through what – how would you describe, how would you define masculinity for folks? Well, this is really important because you're right.

You hear a lot of things like – well, you said it, toxic masculinity, tyrannical patriarchy, down with the patriarch. You hear things like rape culture you know things that aren't related to that or called that you know it's kind of weird and really really what i what i see it being is is a a movement to lump all masculinity in as toxic or harmful or destructive so the american psychological association came out with a study uh that at end of the day, if you root everything away, they basically said that the attributes that we would normally consider masculine by nature, so I think it was competitiveness, dominance, maybe aggression, and stoicism are inherently harmful.

Well, they're not. Yeah. And when people say toxic masculinity, I know what some people are saying. I know they're saying what's – again, some people are saying that some masculinity or if you take it to the extreme, it can be toxic. I actually don't disagree with that. But I don't use that term because it's – what are we even talking – the fact that we even need to sit here and define it is why I'm not going to use that term because I don't think it's used in the right context and I don't think it has the right motive behind it. So let me say this, and I'm going to set the record straight here. Masculinity is amoral.

It's not good. Some people say, oh, we need it so good. No, it's not good. It's not bad. It is. It is what it is. I was talking with my son. I told you he started a podcast and we were talking about testosterone. Yeah. And I read up on a lot of this cause I want to stay in the know. And,

um, you know, young, young boys, fetuses, babies, newborns, even in utero are introduced to higher levels of testosterone than our female counterparts. And that changes us biologically, physiologically. It changes who we are. And it causes us to have certain characteristics, secondary sex characteristics, like we're bigger, we're stronger, we're faster, bone density, muscle mass, but also the way that we behave and the way that we interact with the world.

And it's amoral. It just is. It's how we utilize it. And that's what I call manliness. Gotcha. So a man can harness his masculinity for productive outcomes. That's somebody who's acting like a man.

Anything else is male. You can be a male. You know, that's a biological birthright. Right. You're either a male or you're a female, right? Then you have masculinity and how you use your masculinity, those characteristics caused by the hormones flooding through our bodies,

is what determine if we're being manly or not. So manly for you is not a pejorative. Manly for you is like, that is a thing to aspire to. Kind of like I hear, you know, working with kids, there's a lot of fathers, fewer dads, right? Anybody can father a kid. Right.

But becoming somebody's dad, that's a different thing, right? So there's a bunch of people who can be male. Sure. Manliness, when applied appropriately, looks like what?

It's the next level. Let me say what it's not. It's not, you know, wearing a flannel shirt and chopping wood and... Disagreed. Yeah. I'm not what it's not. It's not wearing a flannel shirt and chopping wood. Disagreed. I'm not saying you shouldn't. Come on, man.

It's not having a beard. Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't. Listen, I haven't shaved in 11 months. This is all I got, man. It's been probably 11 minutes for me. I was going to say, dude, you used to have this long sucker. It looked awesome. Yeah, jujitsu got in the way of that.

Oh, did it? Or my beard got in the way of jujitsu. Yeah, so people say, well, you know, it's going to the gym. No, no, no. I mean, strength is important, but it's how you use the strength. You know, if you go to the gym and you're jacked and you use it to beat people, okay, that's not being manly. I mean you might have some masculinity in there because you're strong and you're big and you have those hormones. But that's not being manly.

I don't think anybody would suggest it is. car accident and you're able to pry open a door with your muscles and pull somebody out of the car because you're exhibiting bravery courage risk-taking and the physical strength to be able to deal with it that's manly behavior gotcha so manly manliness is it's a character it is it's developed it's earned it's almost something practiced right well that's the best way to get better at anything you can't just be manly Like you have to actually practice it. So a lot of times people will say, they'll say to me, you know, nobody needs another man to tell them how to be a man. No, that's the furthest thing from the truth.

I need a picture of what this looks like. That's exactly opposite of reality. Yes. So my sons, I've got three sons. I've also got a little girl and they need instruction. Yes. If they don't get it, then they have the potential of going off course.

Well, see, and I'll even go one step further. They will get it. It will be from you or from somebody. They'll get an instruction manual. It might be faulty. Agreed. Agreed. They will pick one up.

Yeah. And so I love, there's a, I think it's maybe an old Adler quote, an old psychologist quote, said, I thought I could take away somebody's depression and anxiety and they would be well. I found they were empty. That's who they were. I had to give them tools to learn how to practice to live a life of joy, live a life of relationship, of connection, of whatever. Right.

Similarly, I can choose to teach my son what a man looks like and here's what value looks like and here's what character looks like or not. And somebody else will fill that vacuum. Right. And so he's going to use his masculinity for destructive purposes. For gain, yes, which becomes, yeah, yeah. But again, and that's where people say, well, see, that's toxic masculinity. Look, I understand what you're saying.

I don't disagree. But I don't use terms that are designed or at least hijacked to paint all masculinity as toxic. That's right. And I think that's one of my core missions here is we've got to chart a third way instead of brushing everything sideways. Right. I mean, with one swipe, right? Yeah. Okay, so this is just me talking i i look back on my childhood self my dad was a homicide detective

swat guy he was a bad dude and then he quit halfway through my childhood and became like a minister and he said a hardcore dad he learned and my mom wasn't she didn't do any in no college or anything until she was 40s in her 40s and then she now she's a got a phd she's a professor really so i grew up with this awesome with this wild this wild set of examples ahead of me which were great yeah and i also struggled mightily with being what I would call a masculine poser. I followed Pantera around. I went to every show you can imagine. You know what I mean?

I played high school football, and I joined MMA gym. Back before, I mean, in the Ken Shamrock days, man, the OOG days. And I talked a lot of noise. I ran my mouth a lot lot and I didn't have a what I understood to be a picture of what this actually looks like applied and when I got married when I got out of college when I got married

I was a high school coach for a while especially having my first kid I was a basketball and track coach let's be honest I was a track coach I got basketball. Yeah, I was in a great group. We had a blast. It didn't make sense to me until I was staring across the table at a wife who was saying,

I don't know if I can keep doing this with you. I didn't know what this was until I had a kid. I'm 35 at this point. I got a doctor. I think I'm all smart. I don't know what this looks like until I've got a child. Maybe I was 32. So, how do you bridge the gap between

all of these pseudo pictures, if you will, and that application? Because, man, I've got to, we have to do a better job of getting upstream and teaching people before you're staring at your child, what being a man looks like. Before you're staring at your wife. But it's almost equally challenging because you can't really know what you don't know until you're in the game, right?

You can't, and that is one of the hard things. I mean, you can get out ahead of it and realize, and, you know, I think there's one key factor that really makes a male a male. And there's a lot of different ways that we show and exhibit it, but there's one key factor, and it's purpose. It's meaning. And that's found through service to others. So the frame, I work best in frameworks. When I have the framework in front of me, I'm like, got it, okay.

So the framework for male to man is to protect, provide, preside. Protect yourself, your loved ones, and those who cannot do it for themselves. Provide mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually for you and your loved ones and those who cannot do it for themselves provide mentally emotionally physically spiritually for you and your loved ones and then preside to lead to help others get to a place they could not have gone on their own that's the framework that i use and it's not just the framework i use there's a book called manhood in the making uh by david gilmore and he researched

different tribes and different cultures throughout much of time in history. And he found that all of these tribes and cultures had a striking similarity between the way they view men. What is manliness? And what he said was protect, provide, procreate. I don't necessarily agree with procreate defining you as a man, because I know plenty of guys- dad father thing right well not only that yes i didn't even consider that where i was going with it is that i know guys who can't father children biologically they can't do it i don't consider them less manly because they biologically or medically or physically aren't able to to do that right so um

this is why so many guys hit that wall that you're talking about. Like you and I both hit it when we get married and have kids, because what is that responsibility? Yeah. Right. If you don't have any responsibility, you can't be a man. There has to be purpose to your life. There has to be meaning. And that's why we usually find it in marriage partnership with a woman because now we have somebody to provide and protect for and, or our children, the same thing. But, but you can, you can create that outside of marriage. Absolutely. Well, and, and it goes back to that vacuum. If you don't create it, the world created for you, which is why you get pornography. Watch you got, um,

I'm in the gym every day of my life, but there's people who go in excess, right? Right. There's every excess you can imagine. Get into drugs and alcohol, all that stuff. Or people who work 90 hours a week and we give them a million dollars to call them a lawyer, but they're chasing that vacuum. Yeah.

Well, let me give you a great example about like gym culture. So, you know, you have a bunch of guys who are going to the gym. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. Like that's a good thing, actually. Like, we should be strong. It's a great thing, yes. Yeah. But if they're doing it for selfish reasons, it's inferior.

It's not wrong. It's just inferior to doing it for selfless reasons. So, do you know who Tim Kennedy is? Yeah, I've got Tim's shoes on. Oh, you do? Okay. So, you know Tim. Have you had him on the podcast?

No. Okay. They don't have that many beat buttons in there. So he's a Texan man. He's a good guy. He's awesome. Right. So the guy's jacked. Yeah. Right. He's strong. He's jacked. He trains probably every day. I actually did a podcast with him. I went down to his place and I wanted to roll with him, but I know he was nursing a shoulder injury. And so I didn't really push it. I didn't bring it up. And I was like, man, I hope you get feeling better next time we'll have to roll. He's like, well, why don't we do it now? I'm like, don't you have, like, aren't you injured? He's like, that doesn't stop me from

training jujitsu. I was like, oh, well maybe I was just doing it. So I wouldn't have to fight. I'm glad to fight you one armed. That's right. So, um, anyways, there's purpose behind what he does right and i i can't i wish i could remember i said what like what is your life's purpose or what is your your mission statement because he had talked about that and he said to to protect and serve or something along those lines but it wasn't just bullcrap like it was real it was Well, that's why he trains. And because there's a significant purpose and meaning behind it, it gives power to the actions that we engage in. It's deeper. It's more rich. Right?

So you can have this guy who goes into the gym who just wants to look good naked. Or you can have somebody who's like, no, I want to go to the gym. I want to get strong. I want to train jujitsu. So if there ever is a situation that arises that I need to protect myself and other people, I'm capable of doing it. Like, which is the superior motive? Not by my standards. Who am I to decide and dictate what's important to you?

But I promise that guy who has purpose and meaning is going to find much more fulfillment in his life. Absolutely. Or I now have switched gears because I'm getting older. I want to be able to roll around with my grandkids. Right. And that starts now. Absolutely. That's a 30-year game I'm playing now.

And I want to be able to keep up with my son who's a freak in nature, big and strong. This is your 12-year-old? This is my 12-year-old. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to have to work hard now. Yeah, man. You know what I mean?

And so that gives me purpose. And also, hey, can you go get a wheelbarrow of dirt for the garden for my wife? And, hey, can you help me lift this? Those kind of things are great. Right. You know what I mean? I hear a lot in culture, like, I think it might have been Chris Rock. Somebody sent me a Chris Rock video, and it said he's making the joke that, you know,

a woman is loved just inherently, but a man is only loved if he's adding value. And he was kind of like mocking society's perspective of it. He's not wrong. And that's actually not bad. Like I find value in being valuable. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right. October is the season for wearing costumes and masks. And if you haven't started planning your costume yet, get on it. I'm pretty sure I'm going as Brad Pitt in Fight Club era because, I mean, we pretty much have the same upper body, but whatever. All right, look, it's costume season. And let's be honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind costumes and masks more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social setting. We do this around our families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times

in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can learn to be honest with yourself and you can take off the mask and the costumes and learn to live an honest, authentic, direct life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at Better Help. Better Help is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for your schedule. You just fill out a short online survey and you get matched with a licensed therapist. Plus, you can switch therapists at any time for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and

take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Deloney. Talk to me about masculinity and the buzzword of the last few years with Dr. Brown brought up. How do men express vulnerability and shame? Well, I don't like that word vulnerability. Okay, tell me about it. It's just a dumb, like, it's a dumb word. Like, why would I want to be vulnerable?

Like, what is vulnerability? You're exposing your weaknesses. By definition, that's what you're doing. Yes. Why would I want to do that? I would suggest it's because it, relationally, it helps you connect. Yeah, but that's not vulnerability. It's called humility.

Ah, okay, so tell me more. You're humble. You know you're not perfect. You know you don't have it all figured out. And you So tell me more. You're humble. You know, you're not perfect. You know, you don't have it all figured out and you're willing to share. You're willing to expose yourself to new opportunities and, and, and new lessons and new experiences that you can learn from, but you don't have to be vulnerable to do that because I think we're just making it something greater than it really is. Is it, is there a, is there, is that a semantic difference? It may be. Okay. I mean, it could be. Some people might hear that and say, oh, it's just a semantic difference. I choose to look at

it that way because I think vulnerability does represent weakness by definition. Yeah. And that's what it's me saying. You could hurt me. Right. I'm going to tell you that I'm not being a good husband and I'm sorry. Right. And that's just being humble. Humble. Okay. Yeah. So I'm not going to, and there's also times where it's not appropriate to be vulnerable. In Ramadi, it's not helpful. Yeah. Or if I'm faced with another violent encounter on the road, like, I can't, hey, you know, I'm not really capable of defending myself. Can you, you know, take it easy on me?

Yeah. Like, that would be a, okay, he's vulnerable. Right. Or I would never leave my door open in the middle of the night and not set the security alarms and not have the lights on

and just say, hey, criminals, welcome. Like, that's vulnerability. Okay. Okay, but humility on the other hand is saying, okay, I want to defend

and protect my house if we're going to use this analogy. I want to protect and defend my house, so I need to be humble analogy. I want to protect and defend my house. So I need to be humble enough to know that it's not perfect and there's areas that I need to shore up and I need to get the cameras and I need to replace the batteries.

And this is an area that could be an actual vulnerability. So I need to be aware of that. So that to me sounds like integrity, being honest. Well, integrity is not honesty though either. What is integrity? Integrity is your thoughts are aligned with your actions. Okay. So you could be an evil son of a gun and still be an integrity.

Because I'm just being who I am. Your beliefs are aligned with, your actions are aligned with your beliefs. So take a terrorist, for example. Yep. Your actions are aligned with your beliefs. So take a terrorist, for example. Somebody who thinks that their purpose on this world is to kill innocent people who don't believe like them. And that's their world belief. That's their belief about life and the afterlife. And then they go do it. That person actually has integrity.

Yeah, that's living with integrity. Very well said. So integrity could go either way. So I'm trying to get below humility, which really means being able to look in the mirror and tell the truth to yourself. That actually is good. I like that.

Or being able to humiliate. And again, I have never thought of that until just now. So I'm processing this in real time. I've never thought, do we just over, do we have too many words and over sensationalize some very core life principles? Tell the truth.

Tell the truth to yourself. If you're not being a good husband, tell your wife, I'm not doing good at this and I need to get better at this. Not even I need to, but here's how I will. I'm going to, right? Or here's how I will. Yeah. Like, like, here's a plan.

Here's a plan. Yeah. Because nobody wants to hear somebody complain. And your wife certainly doesn't want to hear her husband complain about all the crappy things he does. Yeah. What she wants is she wants you to recognize it. Some honesty. And then what are you going to do?

Right. And then actually do it. Yeah. There you go. Integrity. Yeah. Huh. Okay.

So, the first time we were talking about hunting before the show started, help me as just a man raising a little boy. He's not a little boy anymore. Good grief. He's a monster. You have a six-year-old? Six-year-old daughter.

Daughter. And then a 12-year-old boy. 12-year-old son. Got it. Okay. And I'd fight him before I'd fight her. Oh, yeah. Of course.

She's the youngest. She's the girl. We actually start this week with jiu-jitsu for her. Awesome. I can fight her. Oh, yeah. Of course. She's the youngest. She's the girl. We actually start this week with jiu-jitsu for her. Awesome. I can't wait. Yeah. She'll be a killer. So my first time I ever went deer hunting and I shot my first big deer, I had shown

up to my father-in-law's place and he's a pro bass fisherman. He's just an incredible guy. Yeah. This is your father-in-law? My father-in-law. Okay. So he got a pro bass fisherman. He's just an incredible guy. Yeah. This is your father-in-law? My father-in-law. Okay, so he got you into hunting? Yes. Okay, got it.

Yeah, my dad, his guns had a very, I mean, he was a tactical ops guy, right? Yeah. And he was a hostage negotiator. Like, you only pick up guns when things are going down. Right. And just hunting didn't appeal to him. It's kind of like the adage of like, and it's bad,

but you know, like once you're shooting people, shooting deer is a little different. Well, it's just, I don't, those are tools for work here. Yeah, I got it. My father-in-law on the other hand

is an outdoorsman to the T. He's incredible, man. Just, I mean, he's an incredible outdoorsman. And I had been a grad school nerd, just nerd, nerd, nerd. I borrowed my wife's Prius and drove down to the hunting lease in Texas. Awesome.

I bet they appreciated that. How old was he at the time? My son? Yeah. Probably five. Okay. Maybe. Got it.

Four. Shot an 11-point buck and shoved it into the back of a Prius. Your first year? First year. Yeah. My father-in-law was like, this isn't cool, man. That's what he said. He was like, it was not fair.

But, yeah, I've never even seen anything like it since. I know, you're ruined, man. You're ruined. The grief I took on either side of that conversation, which is, I can't believe you're not hunting. I can't believe a grown man would drive a Prius. Who was saying I can't believe you're hunting? Well, whether it's my colleagues at work, or whether it's Who was saying, I can't believe you're hunting? Well, whether it's my colleagues at work

or whether it's whoever. Or, can't believe... What is there to be said for I just like the things that I like? And there's... Or, a car gets great gas mileage. Or, yes, it would have been much easier to shove that thing in the back of my truck that I drove.

Yeah. But there seems to be a set of rules for masculinity nowadays. You mentioned a couple of them. You got to have a flannel shirt. You better have an ax on your car. You better have an Overland drive. You better, wait. And all those things are awesome.

Right. Yet I, there's millions of men who have never been in a gym because they had to make the high school team. They don't even know where to start with that. And they feel like if there's not, if I don't meet these rules, you know what I mean? And so how do you line up that's not masculine, that is, that's not, that is? I get stuck.

So when you're raising a son, the tendency is, hey, that, oh, you know what I mean? Yeah. Hey, that's not a, a oh I don't know man you're into it like my son is a master chef and he loves cooking and

like well that I want to I'm celebrating that dude I'm gonna high five that yeah but Matt but cook

like take cooking I got buddies who'd say dude that's not your job bro that's your you know what I mean that's stupid I agree 100% cooking is not masculine or feminine.

What about that would make that masculine or feminine? There you go. Like there's nothing. Nonsense. Art. Art's another one. Yes. Or singing.

Or theater. Dancing. Acting. Oh, that's not masculine nor feminine. Yes. Like it's just a way to express yourself. So how do I, when I look at somebody and they say, is this masculine or not? masculine nor feminine. Yes. Like it's just a way to express yourself. So walk, how do I,

how do I, when I look at somebody and they say, is this masculine or not? What's a litmus test I can give? Well, it's the protect,

provide, preside. Okay. All right. All right. So, so let's say, okay,

so I'll tell you what's not masculine. Being, or man, I'll say manly, just so we're using the same words that we were using earlier.

Being 30 plus years old. Yeah, living with mom and dad, playing video games, and not contributing to the household. Yes. That's not manly. Right. Nobody in the history of the planet has ever thought that is. Why? Because they're abdicating their responsibility of protecting, providing, and presiding. Yes.

Now, let's take a— I would even say that's not feminine either. No. That's just a leech. Right. Of course, yeah. But let's take acting or cooking. Is that person protecting, providing, presiding?

Like if your son—let's say your son decides he's going to go to culinary school, he's going to start a culinary podcast. Dude made my breakfast this morning. I said, hey, I got out of the gym late, and I was like, hey, I need you to make breakfast. He whipped it up, dude. He's already being manly then. You want to know why?

Because, yeah, maybe he's not making money, but he's adding value to the household. That's manly behavior at 12 years old. And it's a gift that I give him that responsibility. Of course. Then he can handle gift that I give him that responsibility. Of course. Why would you rob him of that? That's right. Yes.

Okay. So why do we have a culture, millions of kids that we have stolen from them? The weight of responsibility and the old, like, God says the scaffolding, like I'm going to push you one step further than you think you can go. Cause I know you can do it.

You're capable of more than you are. Yeah. We've stolen from kids. Yeah, because we're weak. Why? Well, we don't care. Here's why. It's not that we care about our kids.

I mean, we do, but that's not why. That's why we say we're doing it. You know who we care more about? Our own little sad feelings. Yeah. Yeah. We don't like it when our kids suffer. Right?

Or I don't want to have that awkward conversation. I've had my 13-year-old, and you probably have experienced this too, ask me some very sensitive questions. The other night getting – we're just having dinner, dude. Just living her life. And my 6-year-old daughter, she's climbing into her chair. Mom, how does the boy part get in the girl part? I was like, oh, we're going to do this right now.

We're doing it right now. And you should. Of course you should. Why would you lie about that? It shouldn't even be a weird thing. It shouldn't. But it is because of, not because the kid,

the kid doesn't know he or she is supposed to feel awkward about that. No. They wouldn't ask the question. They learn it from us. Right. Yes.

So your kid asks you that question and what most people will do is say, oh, well, go talk to your mom, or oh, go talk to your dad, or I'll tell you when you're older, because they aren't comfortable enough to have a real conversation that actually could have a deep and meaningful impact with your child. And somebody else will have that conversation. Oh, yeah.

And not a healthy way. No. They're going to find something online or one of their friends is going to say something and an unhealthy perspective on it. Or the number of middle schoolers we deal with sexting. And I mean, it's there, right? It's there. It's there. So your voice needs to be the loudest voice. And you can only do that by actually using it in difficult situations. How do you recommend somebody have that? Begin. If I don't know where to begin.

Just do it. Like there's, you're talking about conversations? Yep. Just do it. Like there's no other way to, I wish there was like a formula. You know, I told you about frameworks. Like, oh, well, the first thing you do is you present the, no. Yeah.

You just do it, and you're going to get better at it. And so before today, I would have used the word vulnerable, and you may have used humble, humility. What's vulnerable about that? I think what I'm getting is I think below that, I'm going to be honest. I like that. And honest with my son might be,

hey, we're going to have an awkward conversation, and I'm not going to be great at it, but I've got to be the guy that talks to you about this. Yes. That's a way to start. That's just being truthful. That's being honest. Yes.

And letting them know there's not a perfect way to do this. And yes, you may have to go to counseling or you're going to be telling this joke with a couple of buddies in your beers when you're in college. But we're doing this today. And you know what? He's going to look fondly on that. Because you were honest with him. Well, and here's another example that I use is, you know, occasionally my wife will come in with the new pair of jeans on or new dress or something.

And she'll say, what do you think? So what do you say? Yeah. Do you tell her, if you don't particularly like that, let's say, or you don't think it looks that great, do you lie or do you tell the truth? I tell the truth. I would. Yeah. Why wouldn do you lie or do you tell the truth? I tell the truth. I would. Yeah.

Why wouldn't you? Yeah, I tell the truth. That's a tactful way to do it. What I usually say is if something, I say, you know, that one's not as flattering as the other one that you bought. Yeah. Okay, but you got to tell the truth. Yeah.

Because if you do on these seemingly insignificant situations, then when it really matters, she knows you're not full of crap. Well, and more importantly, when your kids are around, they, I believe one day when we've got special radar sensors,

kids can, they feel dishonesty. They know when you're not telling the truth. They know. Everybody does. I agree with you. And when they, when mom doesn't,

comes in with the dress and they know that you're, they, whether it's minuscule eye movements or what it is, they know. And if they see you lie, they go, that's how you do that. That's the model. Right. You don't tell the truth if it's going to be hard. Right. Or I can respectfully say, man, that last dress you had was incredible. This one's not as flattering.

You still look beautiful. Let's get out of here. Right? Let's go. Exactly. They get a model for, oh, that's what love looks like. That's what, that's what honesty looks like. That's what respect and dignity look like.

Right? And that's, again, I would have used vulnerability. That's just what honesty looks like. Her saying, I'm asking you to be honest with me. She wants your opinion. And you being honest back. If you don't want my opinion, She wants your opinion. And you being honest back, yeah. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask me. There you go.

But we always laugh because there's the old adage of, you know how you tell a true friend is, you know, somebody will tell you if you have a piece of toilet paper or whatever stuck or there's something like stuck on your face or a booger is hanging down, you know, like a true friend will say that. We laugh about that, but that's actually true.

It's 100% true. Like they're willing, in a silly situation, they're willing to make themselves uncomfortable enough. Cause it's like, bro, you got a little, that's uncomfortable for me. Right. But I'm willing to do that because I care enough about you to do it. Yes. And the, the furthest extreme of that is I had a buddy, a couple of buddies, man, this is 15 years ago, 16 years ago. Um, I'd moved to a new town. My wife was going to trail six months later. She was finishing some research up and we were hanging out and I made some, I was just trying to make an ill joke, dude. I was just trying to be lame, bro. What's up, bros? Yeah. And I said something along the lines of, by the way, in this new town,

man, like, like where's the, like if I ever need a girlfriend or something, whatever. And one guy, he's just one of my closest friends to this day. His name's Kevin. He said, hey, you don't know us that well. So just so we can go ahead and set the record straight, if you ever cheat on your wife, you better hope to God she finds you before we do. Really?

And that was just how we're laying this stuff around, right? But that's, and he's one of my, that's the way he lives his life is, I don't know you that well. I'm not going to compromise who I am, my values, my purpose for some dude I don't know. So just so we're clear, right? And there was an integrity there. And they would have put me in the hospital and they would have sat with me.

You know what I mean? They would have brought a 30-pack and hung out in the hospital with me. And that's the kind of guys they are. But it goes back to I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm going to be honest with you. Well, and you said integrity because they could probably kick your of guys they are. But it goes back to, I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm going to be honest with you. Well, and you said integrity because they could probably kick your ass like they said. Yeah, yeah. But there's also –

It's a low bar. But there's also – he also has integrity because no man without integrity would be able to say that. That's right. Like his words and his thoughts are in alignment with his action. And so it gives him the confidence, which is earned, to be able to say something that is confrontational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? And the other beautiful part about that is I get to choose

whether that's confrontational or not. And I chose to hear it as, A, it's a bad joke. I would never do, I mean, I wasn't even a, it wasn't even me fishing. It was a, me trying to do water cooler joke at my wife's expense. And that's a, that's a piss poor way to be a grown man and to show respect for my wife. Number two, he called me out. I needed to hear that. Well done. And I think I get a choice on how I hear other people.

And I think we've lost that too. You hurt my feelings. You hurt my feelings. Now I'm not going to give you permission to hurt my feelings. You made a statement. You don't like – like when we started, you said, I think your shorts – your pants are stupid. You didn't say that. But I get to choose whether I hurt – I mean, I was thinking it first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're not Delta jeans.

I know, dude. I ordered some. They're like on back order until May of 2028. They're so busy. Golly, dude. Jocko, get it together. Let's go now. No, I think they'll be here in a couple weeks.

I get to choose whether you hurt my feelings or not. I'm not going to give that power away to just everybody. Yeah. I'm going to hold on to it. Okay, here's what we're going to do. Let's take a break and then we're going to come back and then I'm going to rapid fire some questions. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and

everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, let's rapid fire. I wrote some questions down.

Ready? Ready. Give me a sentence or two off the top of your head. This is so unfair because I wouldn't know how to answer. Here we go. I was like, just any random, but like, you're going to give me a prompt, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay.

I'm like, any random sentence? Men and intimacy. You want a sentence or two around that? That is tough. What is masculinity and intimacy? How do they work together? I think it's a connection. Okay.

Intimacy is a connection and it's a representation of the way that you guys feel about each other, the commitment that you have towards each other, uh, and your willingness to express it in a healthy way that cares about her just as much as it cares about you. Can you be intimate with people non-romantically? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's intimate connections that aren't sexual. Right. A hundred percent. Okay. Uh, men and dependents. Men and independents? Men and dependents.

Oh, dependents. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta eliminate that from your life. Dependents. Okay. Yeah. You can't be dependent on other people and other things to solve all your problems and to cover and provide for everything that you need.

Yeah. I wrote, I wrote a book called sovereignty in 2017, 2018 called sovereignty. It's independence. That's what you should be working towards, not dependence on other things and other people. All right. Next show.

We'll talk about that. That'd be great. Masculinity and sexuality. There's a lot of immaturity around that thought. Yeah. Um, as I was talking with my son the other day about sexuality and sexual and

body parts and things like that. He giggles and stuff. But grown men don't grow out of it. It's still funny. I think there's a level of maturity that needs to happen there so that you can understand that being sexual, having sex is

natural and healthy and good. Yeah. And we need to have healthy conversations and discussions around it. Men and mental health. I think that one's misunderstood. Tell me about it. I think a lot of times people believe that if a man takes care of his mental health, whether that's going to see a therapist or meditating or any practice that could improve his mental health, that he's somehow less manly, which is really a

weird thing to consider. How does that get there? That's bonkers to me. I don't know. I don't know why that's a sign of weakness. I mean, we talk about building our mental fortitude. We talk about building our physical body and presence. And then if somebody goes and uses a tool to help them work through some some mentality stuff

some mindset stuff or their emotions is another one then somehow they're looked at as less manly I actually think getting help

and taking care of your mind is gonna help you become more of a man than not doing it so I it's been my experience

I would rather do rounds with maybe not now I'm not I'm not who I once was I would I would have rather do rounds with, maybe not now, I'm not who I once was. I would have rather do rounds with professional fighters than go sit with a trauma therapist. Those are hard. If you go do that right, there's a fortitude necessary for that.

For sure. So I don't understand that. I don't get it. You take care of it, but it is what it is. But, you know, let's not discount fighting either. No, I think there's something about the kinetic energy. I think it's very necessary. And you're also talking about intimacy.

You know, when other men are pushing on each other and you're trying to hurt me and I'm trying to hurt you in a controlled environment, you know, we're learning from each other. We're connecting. I'm getting to know about you. When I train jiu-jitsu, I can know pretty quick about a person, the way they train with me. Yeah,

absolutely. You know, when somebody grabs you and it's kind of like, oh, he's like, okay, this guy's a little passive. Like,

I'm wondering what, is he afraid? Um, I made that mistake with a guy from Brazil one time and they were helping me off the mat. Is that right? I woke up. Yeah. And this guy's just,

he's weak, man. Well, I felt right into it. But there's a difference between weak and meek, this guy is just, he's weak, man. Well, I fell right into it, right? But there's a difference between weak and meek, right? There you go. And so like, you can roll the guy who doesn't have to exert all of his force against you, but still you know.

I learned. Still you know. There's a difference. I learned real quick. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What's the difference? How do we integrate strength, power?

No, you know what? I'm going to back up. Okay. We may disagree on this one. Maybe not, man. I think... Tell me about feelings in men. This is one I talk about actually quite a bit.

All right. You can't absolve yourselves of being emotional. You can't. Who is this? Yes. Right? Yes. How is a human being not going to be emotional?

But here's where we get it wrong. So let's say you're really pissed about something. Yep. And maybe you ask me a question. I just get pissed and I slam the wall or I punch a hole in the wall, which I've done. Yep. We think that we did that because we're angry. No. No, no. Those are different anger

response. They're not the same. You didn't do that because you were angry. You did that because you didn't know how to respond differently to the anger that you have. So I look at it like the dashboard on your car. You're driving down the road. You notice that the fuel light comes on. Do you like swerve off the road and wrap your truck around the next telephone pole that you see because you're pissed? Yeah. No.

You're like, okay, something's wrong. That's the fuel gauge. I guess I better pull off and go to the gas station. Then you go to the gas station. You can put the gas in and then correct the problem. Get back on the road and you're on about your day. So emotions, all of them, there, there are no negative emotions, anger, greed, jealousy, resentment, fear. Those aren't negative. They're supposed to teach you something. Yeah. Like what, what's your dashboard telling you? And then what

are you going to do about it? That goes back to, man, I love that. There's a feelings don't count. Get rid of them. If you have them, you're weak. Or let them drive and run everything. Right. And I think that's more of a vulnerability thing. Both of those are illnesses. Yeah. They're just illnesses.

Right. It's just an inappropriate way to deal with it. Yeah, dude. So, like, if I'm happy, I'm going to be happy. If I'm mad, like, I can be mad. In fact, being mad to certain situations is the appropriate emotion. That's right. You should be mad about that.

It's the gap between that and the response. That's right. And I think the more that we can focus on that gap, I feel this and now what? Yes. Because I didn't hit a hole through the wall because of my wife. I hit a hole through the wall because I chose to hit a hole through that wall. Yeah. Because I didn't have the tools to do it.

Maybe you didn't even choose to do it, but you've ingrained that pattern in you. I chose not to do it. I chose to not not do it. Yeah. How about that? You may not have even made a conscious choice. You may have reacted so long to certain stimulus that you're not even choosing to do it anymore. You're just, that's you.

That's become you. You need to rewire that. That's right. And that's what I would say. Once you recognize, I want to stop this. Now it's on you to choose not to do it. Right. However far upstream you got to go. All right. And that's what I would say. Once you recognize I want to stop this, now it's on you to choose not to do it. Right. However far upstream you got to go.

All right, we got to hustle. James is in my ear here. Okay. Somehow I always make James out to be the bad guy. James is incredible. You're a great guy. It's a new year, new me. Is that how we're going to do that?

New year, new me. James, just let us roll, man. Come on, dude. Why are you going to interrupt? Listen, it's a good thing. I was really liking you, Ryan. Tell me about a time you've been wrong. Man.

Please say never. Please say never. I'm not struggling because there isn't any. I'm struggling because I don't know which one to tell you. Man, I'm having a hard time coming up with a time. How about the time you changed your mind? Well, even the whole toxic masculinity conversation is one that, you know, initially I failed to realize it wasn't as broad and in-depth as it is now

about how masculinity is neither good nor bad. It's how you utilize it. Gotcha. And also I had a lot of misconceptions about what was manly. I tend to look at masculine things and think, well, that guy, he drives cars and he's with women and he's strong. And so he's a man. Well, not necessarily, you know?

And so I've really had to go deep into figuring out. I like that your definition of manliness masculinity has transcended biology has transcended really action it's really a character yeah masculinity is biological but manliness is something so much more

favorite book I'm going to read it next so you tell me okay as a man thinketh actually, no, no, let me back up. That's a good one. Yeah. Have you read that? As a man thinketh by James Allen. Uh, wild at heart is actually probably my favorite book. Have you read that? Yeah, dude. That was 20 years ago. Yeah. He came through, he came through last year. He's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. That book changed my life. Huh? Okay. So I would, so, um, I'll get it back out. Yeah, that book changed my life. Huh, okay. So I would, so... I'll get it back out.

Yeah, I would. I'd crack that one up open every year. Favorite band? I actually don't listen to a lot of music. So I know you're going to ask me about music. You're a music guy, right? Yeah. My favorite band? None.

Please say none. I just got an air of... None. Why would I waste time listening to music? What a flex, dude. That's so great. My favorite band. None? Please say none. I just got an air of none. Why would I waste time listening to music? What a flex, dude. That's so great. I listen to no music. I listen to no other man.

You know, actually, there's one that I really enjoy because my son and I, my oldest son. So my oldest, he fulfills orders in our store. Okay. And that's something he's been doing for about three years. And whenever we're in there, all he wants to listen to is George Strait. Dude, my son is stuck on 90s country, man. Yeah, man. In a crazy way.

90s country. Joe Diffie Radio. Dude. Dwight Yoakam. Yes. Yeah, man. My son came out. I was telling I told the show

a couple months ago he came out I was like daddy you ever heard of this guy named Garth Brooks and I was like no son

tell me more who is it now yes so I'm a big George Strait fan Cody Jinx I like a lot of Cody Jinx

if I'm listening to music country music most of his stuff is a little darker but I like that I'll check him out I like some good dark country there's a great song Loud and Heavy is what it's called stuff's a little darker but i like that i'll check him out yeah i like some good dark there's a great song loud and heavy that's what it's called okay that's a song i

really like his and then it's something a little bit more upbeat is uh granger smith you know granger smith he's country music country music as well he's a friend of mine man he's got a lot of good music i'll check him out too yep everybody go check out granger smith that's awesome all right hey as we wrap up tell me about iron, tell me about Iron Tribe. Tell me about the Order of Man. Tell me about all the stuff you got going on. Yeah, so the podcast is the best place. You know, that's where you can learn about everything we're doing called Order of Man Podcast wherever you listen. We've got the Iron Council that you alluded to.

We've got, gosh, 1,100 guys in there all working together, holding each other accountable. We've got assignments and challenges and calls and just about everything else you can think of. And then we do some events periodically. We do a father-son event. We're thinking about bringing a father-daughter event on this year. And then we do a big main event. Sign me up for that. I'll let you know. Yeah, I'll get you the dates. We'll have you out. That'd be a blast. I think your daughter's a little young

to come, but your son's just the right age. Let's get right in the middle of it. That'd be awesome. Let's make it happen. I would love, love that. My brother, dude, I just met you today. I feel like you're my best friend. That's awesome. Gonna do it back. It's awesome, and I'm grateful for you.

Thanks for coming to Nashville and hanging out with us. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it. All right, man. Okay. Hey, so that was my conversation with Ryan Mickler. I hope you enjoyed our time together. Listen, if you want to hear more interviews, let me know.

Go to johndeloney.com slash ask and just put it in the form. Put it in that email. Hey, I want to hear more interviews. Love talking to folks like Ryan who believe what they believe. They're not afraid to talk about it. That I can disagree with them and that we can still be friends. We're going to still end up hunting together

and I can't wait. And man, he had some cool origin shoes. Come on, Jocko. Send some boots. We'll see you soon on the Dr. John Deloney Show.