The Dr. John Delony Show - When the Gaslights Burn Brightly in Relationships

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

The Dr. John Delony Show is a caller-driven show that offers real people a chance to be heard as they struggle with relationship issues and mental health challenges. John will give you practical advice on how to connect with people, how to take the next right step when you feel frozen, and how to cut through the depression and anxiety that can feel so overwhelming. You are not alone in this battle. You are worth being well—and it starts by focusing on what you can control. Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show. We want to talk to YOU!   Show Notes for this Episode Question from Kelly: What is ruminating? My wife had a baby a couple of weeks ago and I find my anger increasing with my lack of sleep. My mom is an alcoholic and recently relapsed. How can I help her? In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts - Gabor Maté Unbroken Brain - Maia Szalavitz  When I make a mistake, my husband holds it over me even after I apologize. Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents - Lindsay C. Gibson Lyrics of the Day: "Into The Mystic" - Van Morrison   As heard on this episode:  BetterHelp Redefining Anxiety John's Free Guided Meditation Ramsey+   tags: parenting, marriage, kids, family, substance abuse, special needs, addiction, suicide/self-harm, disagreement/conflict, anger/resentment/bitterness   These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately.

On today's show, we talk to a brand new dad who's struggling with the little baby girl who won't sleep. We talk to a young man who's trying to love his mom who's an alcoholic. And we talk to a wife who lives in a home where the gas lights burn brightly. Woo! Stay tuned. Hey, what's up? Stay tuned. man we're so glad you joined us there's literally 750 trillion podcasts from some dude in his basement talking about his favorite kind of toads to i don't know real podcast and then there's this one and i'm so grateful that you joined us rumor has it we are up to 39 listeners and so surely we

don't have all of you on right now so i'm i'm guessing we've got about 12 of you now out of the total 39 that's you know about 33 i'm good with that so hey we're glad that you're here tell your friends and if this is like a guilty pleasure and you don't want to tell your friends super understand that too but listen if you want to be on this show, talk about, ah, I said listen. Kelly, five bucks in the jar. For those of you that's inside baseball, one of the most annoying things in the world is when you're listening to something, somebody talking to you, or you're listening to a podcast, and they say, hey, listen. Your response should be, I am, idiot. I am listening.

So I've decided I'm going to say, give Kelly five bucks. She's drastic, dramatically overpaid for what she does, but who doesn't need another five bucks here and there? When I said, listen, so back it up. I would love for you, if you want to be on the show, you want to talk about mental health, your relationships. I don't charge anything and the advice is worth about what you pay for. But, I'd love to have you on the show. If you want to be on, give me a

call. 1-844-693-3291. Leave a message. Let us know what's going on. Like 1984, 86. Leave a detailed message and your number at the beep. Or, if you want to email us, you can go to johndeloney.com slash ask. Fill out the form, and we will to email us you can go to johndeloney.com slash ask fill out the form

and we will get back to you james is still gone so we got the maestro ben hill playing with the knobs over there and doing a great job you're communicating well oh thank you um we're gonna have to have a hard conversation me and James, when he gets back from helping others or whatever community service he does. Kelly, you're brilliant as always. I can't hear you. I was just talking about how good Ben was doing, and I guess he didn't plug you in.

Well, we're back there we go see you bragged on ben looks like james still has a job that was actually totally my fault man talk about moving up to the big leagues and striking striking out yeah sorry ben just kidding but actually i have a question okay what's your question so just so everybody listening anytime ke actually, I have a question. Okay, what's your question? Just to everybody listening, anytime Kelly says, I have a question, usually it's, why is it hard for you to get to work on time? Why are you an idiot? Wow. No, this is an actual question that I need you to, your knowledge. Okay.

So I've heard you talk about ruminating before. Yes, it is. And I'm a ruminator from way back love to replay conversations or how conversations i think i should have imaginary ones where you always win oh where i win them all by the way all of them and i'm amazing and sharp and witty and i just crush the other person yes but i've had one before where that actually played out. Oh, you got to actually have the conversation? Yeah. And it was devastating.

Not because I won. Yes. But because it just didn't go like I planned. And I said all the things that I wanted to say. Yes. And there was some collateral damage. And it was one of the worst things. It's this horrible memory in my head.

But I didn't ever know what that was called until I've heard you say ruminating. So can you expound on that? you talk about it sometimes and you use the word and i think there's probably a lot of us out there that do it so can you talk about that and explain it yes let me ask you one more question are you a catastrophizer meaning do you like to do you see the worst case scenarios with your kids or your husband or your situation or your work because i'm very much a realist okay you know very to the point enneagram i know you don't believe in it but eight that kind of just this is just it just do it for those y'all i don't know what the enneagram is if you just um

pick some glitter and throw it in the air and be like ah it's kind of like that okay so you're an eight right which means you've designated yourself as a hard charger um i'm a challenger challenger i challenge things and my husband uses the term bulldozer man he is delicate with his with his words we all love it we all love a delicate husband okay so ruminating is um it's when those thoughts like lightning bolts pop into your head and then they the way I look at it is

seeds fall on a field and ruminating is when I make the decision and I am pretty intentional about that language when I choose to water those seeds fertilize those seeds and just spend a lot of time dwelling in those.

My ruminating was often, especially when I was younger, was about fights. I would have these imaginary physical confrontations with people, and they would always play out in a way where I was incredibly victorious. And then I joined an MMA gym and learned how to fight and realized, oh, that would have not gone that way at all. It would have ended terribly for me. But also, I'm a bad ruminator. I tend to be a catastrophizer. Recently, the Gulf of Mexico, south of where I grew up, was on fire, right? I look at that, and then it's 110 degrees in Portland, and all of a sudden, I'm wondering what my grandkids are going to eat. Now, of where I grew up was on fire, right? I look at that and then it's 110 degrees in Portland.

And all of a sudden I'm wondering what my grandkids are going to eat. Now they're going to do this. And then I go back to the, here's the conversations I'm going to have right now. And they're going to go like this. And then the Senator's going to say, you can't handle the truth. And I'm going to be like, I can't. And then none of that goes that way. So ruminating is when those thoughts lightning bolt into your head and you give them an audience and then you stir that pot. Sometimes some of us stir that pot with a wooden spoon. Sometimes we put it in a blender and we hit a button. So Kelly, for me, it's understanding what you just said. Very few people get an opportunity to live one out. And it feels like I'm going to win this conversation. It's going to feel so good.

I'm going to do this and this. And then you have it. And there's collateral damage. Somebody's listening. Kids are involved. You hurt somebody and you think that's going to feel good. It doesn't. Ruminating is a waste of time.

And here's where I think we get addicted to it, is it feels like productive worrying. It feels like we are protecting ourselves and worrying. It feels like I'm going to have my conversation with the boss. I'm going to get this raised and I'm going to let them know that they've been, it always feels like it's going to feel good and it doesn't. Here's a good example. I testified in a court case once. It was a heartbreaking situation. The guy got a long prison sentence. It was heartbreaking for everybody. I liked the next morning when the sentence was read, I got, it was queasy. I felt gross. And I called a mentor of mine who did a lot of testifying, and I asked her, hey, I just feel like he got sentenced to jail and there's some justice for the victim. And she said, nobody wins. Nobody wins in these situations, right? So when you have the big justice conversation and

I'm going to tell him this, or I'm going to fist fight that, or I'm going to, nobody wins when you ruminate. Sitting in your bed and catastrophizing, thinking the worst case and the worst case and the worst case and the worst case, it's just magical fantasies, man. It's as much a fantasy as unicorns are going to land and I'm going to get the guy and he's going to complete me, or we're going to have a family of four and suddenly we're all going to land and I'm going to get the guy and he's going to complete me or we're going to have a family of four and suddenly we're all going to feel better. It's just not real. It's not true. It's a fantasy. And so catastrophizing, ruminating, it's a waste of time. So what I do, I've got two strategies that I use because I do it a lot. I start to do it a

lot. I don't do it much anymore. Number one is I literally say the word out loud, nope, stop. And I will say those words to myself. My wife will just roll her eyes and laugh because I'll be walking through the living room and I'll just say, nope. And she'll look and go, all right, Deloney's talking to himself again. But I'll just say stop. And when it gets where it's starting to spin on me, I will literally write down these thoughts one at a time. And you've heard me say this, but then I'll just go line by line and demand evidence from them. Usually, it feels like there's 100 things in my head, and usually it's about six or it's about nine, and I'll write them down. Three of them may be true. One of them I can do a thing about.

The other two I can't, and then the rest of it's usually garbage. It's not true at all. I don't have any data to support my thoughts or feelings or anything on it. So that's what I do with ruminating. Hope that helps. Thanks for the call, Kelly. Appreciate that. You're very welcome.

Thank you. And I don't think you're a bulldozer. I think you probably do, but that's okay. I've learned to accept that. Oh my gosh. I just choose, we get things done. You're such a bulldozer. All right, let's go to James in Indianapolis.

What's up, Brother James? How are we doing, man? Not bad. How are you doing, Dr. Domi? We are making it work, dude. Making it work. Doing all right. So what's up?

How's it going? Well, I'm not sleeping well because about 15 days ago, not about 15 days, exactly 15 days ago, my wife gave birth to our beautiful daughter. All right, man. Congratulations, dude. Thank you. 15 days ago. So is this your first one?

Yep. It is our first one. Congrats, man. So why aren't you sleeping? Well, it was. You like what I did there? I know why you're not sleeping. You have another human in

your house that just poops and screams all day long all the time except for oh man that was such a dad exhale okay so but in all seriousness tell me what's going on man yeah so it actually has to do with sleeping um so in the middle of the night you know'm with my kid, and my question is, how do I really maintain that connection with my daughter when I don't know anybody specifically, but I've heard some folks that have an arrangement with their wife or husband. up to right and my wife her philosophy and and most of the women i know my wife's philosophy was i'm gonna be up one of us has to be sleeping one of us has to be clear-headed throughout the day it's ridiculous for you to get up and then after a couple of weeks they developed a really unique relationship that she didn't want me getting involved with, right? So she did, I mean, sleep deprived, sleep starved. Once she was able to pump and all that stuff,

then I could get up in the middle of the night and feed and change diapers and stuff like that. But, you know, then she had to get a pump anyway. So it was just a whole thing. But what's y'all's arrangement? Yeah, so right now we're breastfeeding or my wife's breastfeeding there you go i'm very bad at that we're not doing anything she is but okay um so so usually what happens is um i'll wake up when the kid's screaming um and you know or just unhappy generally. I'll take care of her,

but it's time to eat. And I give her over to mom. Uh, I go to sleep for, you know, the 15 or 45 minutes, however long it is, you know, and hopefully when the kids then, uh, eating, we put her back in the crib and it's all good. But sometimes, then i'm back awake yeah uh looking at the kid and you know my wife um was c-section so i'm trying to give her as much sleep as possible so that she can actually heal and cover yeah and not be you know down and out for the next um teen weeks yeah yeah so um first man i'm glad thanks involved, Dad. Thanks for being a husband who's thinking big picture about his wife. Sometimes I take a lot of calls from dads that aren't, so I appreciate you being an involved guy. So there is the C-section.

You hear about it so much that you forget that it's like somebody gets cut open and they take their guts out and then take a human out and then put guts i mean it's a major surgery right and we don't often think that we just like oh i just had a c-section sweet cool not sweet and cool it's a big deal it's common but it's a big deal so yes there's a there is a necessary man y'all are in it and here's the thing take the baby out you would be waking up in the middle of the night if your wife had a major surgery like this anyway. That's who you are, right? And then you toss a kid in there that, yeah, you're looking at two in the morning. Your brain's not fully on and it's not fully off.

And you just got this being who has taken your wife away from you. She's taking your money away from you. You're exhausted. And she just won't stop screaming, yeah so go ahead and and you know the really the feeling i had but six days ago was really there was a you know one main event but it's it happens a lot but it's like i instantly switch from you know this is my daughter this is, this is another human, to this is a machine that is broken. And I, the self, we say, you know, we want to, I grew up in the self, you know, I want to give her something to cry about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And obviously I'm not at all going to do any of that, but it's just instantly in my brain that happens. Yeah. So, number one number one dude you're exhausted give yourself some grace okay parents um and we don't this doesn't get talked about a lot um postpartum and women is talked about a lot and intrusive thoughts and angry thoughts and violent thoughts there's a lot of literature and discussion on that. It's not with guys. Okay? And so I want you to know, being raged out at 2 in the morning on week 2,

and your wife can't move and this little baby is screaming her head off, you're not crazy. Okay? You will not, under any circumstances, ever hit this kid. Got it? Yes. Are we in agreement on that? Oh, yes. 100%.

Cool. You'll put the baby down and you'll walk outside and take a walk down the street if you get to that place. Okay? Yeah. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't want you to spook yourself or freak yourself out just because you're at the end of your psychological capacity right now, and you're fried. Okay? I think it's an important moment to have a couple of conversations, one with your wife, one just about sleep, about catching up, about what this looks like. The second thing is, man, do you have somebody that could come stay with you for a night and just let you get caught up a little bit?

Like a friend or a parent or a grandparent who would just say, hey, I need a night? We have a couple of friends in the area. We just moved about a year ago. We're still trying to get those relationships. Here's what would be a gift, and it may be a buddy. It may be one of your guy friends. It may be one of your wife's friends.

It may be a moment when you call somebody somebody and, hey, people want to help. They often don't know how. They don't know how. But if you ask, hey, I've got to. I'm fried. I've got to get some sleep one night. Could you come over? And when the baby gets up, here's what we need you to do.

And here's how to help. It will help you reach out for help, which you're going to need to do over the course of this kid's life. And it would give somebody else something to do. That may be an option here. Here's another big thing, dude. Anger just points you towards something you care about, okay? And everything in your life is different now. And at some point, y'all are going to have to sit down and have a fun fun dreaming adventure about what was, how long were y'all married before you had this kid?

Three years. Okay. Almost four years. Almost four years. So let's just be a realist about it. How long did y'all date before that? Three years. Okay. So half a decade, the better part of, right, six years, y'all had butterflies. You made out and hooked up whenever you want to. Y'all just randomly went to movies on Wednesday nights. You went to concerts together.

And everything was cool and messy, and you could be angry at each other and then fix it whatever right and now everything is new and the challenge is your anger often comes from i remember what was and i just need to get back to that and so there's a part of what y'all are experiencing right now that that's not coming back you have a new cool thing and you have to be intentional and honest and open about what this new cool thing is going to be. And it's going to happen one way or the other. So architect and engineer it, right? Draw it up. Tell you what it's going to look like.

Here it's going to be this new cool thing. Those days are over, but we're still going to be able to make out whenever we want to. We may have to just put on a calendar sometimes. Or we're still going to be able to X and Y and Z, go to a movie on a weekday, but we're going to have to call somebody this time. All that stuff will change and shift and it's not any less than. It's just different. You just have to be intentional so all of a sudden you're not living in this past, right? And, bro, listen, you're two weeks in.

Everything feels crazy right now. I promise, promise, it'll settle back, okay? Did you ever play sports in high school or college? I did cross country. Oh my gosh, perfect. Okay. So where, did y'all run about three and a half miles on a normal race? We did 4.8.

4.8. 8K, yeah. Okay. You got bunched up and everybody went out too fast and you're at mile one and a half and you are looking down at your watch and you realize that you are out way too fast and you can't slow down. That's where you're at right now, okay? You don't stop the race.

You don't just quit. You don't go, but you are exhausted and you realize, oh man, we got a long way to go, okay? That's where you're at. This season that you're in right now. I promise you, promise you, promise you will end. Okay. I promise it'll be a few months, but it will end. So I want you to do two things for me. Number one, I want you to tell me you're two weeks in. What's something you miss about the old days already? And be honest, there's a bajillion men out there listening and they'll know if you're lying yeah i honestly i just miss the the

ability just to sit down and cuddle with my wife you know it's hard when you have a a kid you sit down on the couch and it's like, Oh, she's awake. Let me go change the diaper. Yeah. I promise, promise,

promise that we'll come back. Okay. I promise. What's something that you are really excited about? I'm really excited to be able to really pour into Nikki and to my daughter and be able to raise her

in a way that she can make an impact in the world. You know the best way to do that? Just let her know that she's loved. And some of the best ways you can let somebody know, don't ever let that little girl go to bed without you looking her in the eye,

let her know that you love her. Say in the words, and, and, bro. Sometimes the most important ways to show somebody you love them is the teeny tiny little things. It's the diaper when you're so tired you can't even move your fingers. And when your baby's screaming and screaming, you just keep holding her, and you just keep holding her, and you just keep holding her. Or you put her down, or you hand her to your wife, or you do something, right? But you keep showing up, and you keep showing up, and you keep showing up.

If you feel raged out to where you're going to hurt somebody, you're going to hit somebody. You're going to punch a hole through the sheetwalk. I want you to put the baby down and walk outside and go call somebody ASAP. Okay. You don't get those moments back. Okay. I don't think that's you. I think you're exhausted. You're cooked. You miss holding your wife. You want her to be okay. You want her to be able to walk around. You want to be able to go to bed at night and sleep. All those things are real when you're holding a baby that's two weeks old. It's all real. Okay. You're not broken. You're not crazy. Hang in there. Hang in there. Hang in there. about earlier just to wrap up make sure you call somebody and ask hey could one of y'all come over once a week and just give us a break um and that maybe you maybe have to pony up some money and fly your mom out or your dad out my dad comes up sometimes and hangs out with our kids when me and my wife are traveling it's all he's awesome um in-laws come whatever that looks like

um and it may be one of your new friends. And the second thing is I want you, brother, I want you to get with a guy or two who has kids and have somebody that you can text. A lifeline for me was that I ended up having kids later than my buddies. So I had people I could text and say, am I crazy? And they'd say, no, man, that's just normal. You're good. And there was something norming about having friends in my life that were already down the road from me. There was a couple of times they said, yeah, that's not super normal. You should probably call somebody. That doesn't look right. Or that's just a rash.

I had a friend, Holly, she came over when I had my first kid. What is this? Is this the end? She's like, no, it's a rash, dude. You just do this. And I didn't know these things. Right. And so they were helpful. My buddy, Steven came over. They're awesome. Um, they live two houses down from us, but have a couple of guys in your life that you can call and, um, let you know whether things need to be checked up on further or, and this is just part of it, brother. You're a good man. Hang in there. You're not broken. Hang in there. Kelly, Ben, I like talking to people who love their kids,

even though they don't know how to do it and they don't know what they're doing. I love it. Love it, love it, love it. Hey, let me take a quick break. We'll be right back on The Dr. John Deloney Show. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. All right, October is the season for wearing costumes and masks. And if you haven't started planning your costume yet, get on it.

I'm pretty sure I'm going as Brad Pitt in Fight Club era because, I mean, we pretty much have the same upper body, but whatever. All right, look, it's costume season. And let's be honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind costumes and masks more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social setting. We do this around our families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can learn to be honest with yourself, and you can take off the mask and the costumes

and learn to live an honest, authentic, direct life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for your schedule. You just fill out a short online survey and you get matched with a licensed therapist.

Plus, you can switch therapists at any time for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash deloney. Hey, what's up? All right, let's go to Brandon in Columbus, Ohio. What's up, Brandon? Hey, Dr. John, how are you doing? I'm good, brother. How are you? I am doing really well today.

Excellent, man. So what's up man how can i help uh yeah so i um will do a lot of moving pieces so i try to keep this laser focused but cool and make sure you talk into your phone okay can you hear me good yeah um so grew up my mom was a pretty intense alcoholic and, um, she recently about seven or eight years ago, um, got sober thankfully and, um, was doing really well. And then, uh, just this year has kind of relapsed and, um, some added medication addictions and, um, just some pretty crappy stuff. And then has been in and out of the hospital a bunch, um, since January. And, uh, there's a couple like serotonin

overdoses and, um, certain stuff like that. Um, she's kind of had some suicidal language in there. Um, and it's been a week in a psychiatric hospital. Um, she's struggling, huh? Yeah, just struggling. So I'm just,

I'm, I'm like wondering, um, you know, half, half, what's my responsibility? Half,

uh, like, I just don't know what to do. I feel like she has no will. Um, and you know, it's just, it's just tough. So so anything what's your relationship

like with her not good yeah um it was it wasn't good growing up uh what was awesome growing up until i became the age where i was like oh not everyone's mom drinks this much. So, and then it got really bad. And then she got sober and we kind of reconciled and it got better. But the last few years hasn't been that good at all. Yeah. Dude, I'm sorry, man. That's all right. Thanks, man.

How old are you? I am 25. Man. So, you know this. I'm just going to say it out loud. There's not a lot of givens in the world. Not a lot of should always be's. But every little boy.

You got brothers and sisters? I have one little Down syndrome brother. Okay. Yeah, that's even a whole other complication. But every little boy, one of the givens of the universe should be that you can count on your mom. And that you can count on your dad. And they didn't show up, man. I'm sorry.

Do you have a dad in the picture at all? I do. They've been divorced since I was in seventh grade, and he's in the picture. He cares for my brother here and there, and he wants the same for my mom as well, even though they're apart. Yeah.

So it sounds like your mom's got a lot of baggage and trauma of her own she's still wrestling with huh yeah yeah for sure okay yeah i uh i feel like i've tried to have that conversation with her and you know um intense psychotherapy and yeah i don't know It just doesn't land. So there's not, my experience has been there's not a lot of conversation to be had with addicts. There is a lot of connection to be had, but there's not a lot of, oh, okay. Does that make sense? It's not like they're missing a piece of information.

Most of the true addicts, like you're talking about your mom who've been at it a long long time they they know more than anybody how awful this is they know more than anybody how badly they want to quit um they know what this like you're losing your family they know right i don't know a lot of i know a few but i don't know a lot of addicts that can't see it. Right. Yeah. And so that makes those conversations, that makes those learning opportunities hard. Here's the best thing, a couple things I can give you. It sounds like your mom has crossed a new line where now she's using pills and it's almost as though she's practicing an exit strategy. which often for addicts who've been at it a long time, they just get exhausted. And I don't know that they want to kill themselves as much as they want this thing to stop, right? And so suicide often isn't the problem.

Suicide becomes the solution to an exhausted, frustrating, just getting hounded and hounded by these ghosts of addiction right what ultimately did she say made her contemplate suicide ended up in a psych ward yeah uh she was um i was at work one day and around lunchtime, she just, I answered the phone and I could immediately tell that she was, you know, drunk and on other stuff and just was like, you know, um, I don't think I can do this anymore. You know, uh, your brother loves you. You need to take care of them. Um, all that stuff, you know? So she, that that stuff. That's when those conversations, they don't scare me like in a horror movie kind of way, but that's somebody who's not just playing around, right?

Sure. That's somebody who's thinking it through and they're making arrangements and they're making a plan, right? So since she's been out, has she been clean since she's been out of the psych ward or does she just go right back? She hasn't. plan right um so since she's been out is she been clean since she's been out of the psych ward or she just go right back she hasn't she it's nowhere near the way she used to be but it's been like

you know i i might talk to her once a week and um from what i hear it seems like she's maybe a couple weeks or a couple days of the week she's you know under something um i don't not sure it's every day but definitely back at it since she's been out yeah okay do y'all live in the same town uh we live about 30 minutes apart okay and then real quick tell me what the situation is with your little brother are you do you have custody of him or does your dad have custody of him? What's the situation with him? Yeah. So he, my mom actually lives with her sister, my aunt, who's just spent her whole life taking care of other people and cares for my brother and along with my dad. Okay.

So. Sounds like a pretty remarkable woman there, huh? Oh yeah. Incredible. So there's a couple of short-term huh? Oh, yeah. Incredible. So there's a couple of short-term and long-term things, okay? Are you a reader? I do. I enjoy reading. Okay. There's two books I want you to read.

Number one is a book called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and we'll link to it in the show notes. It's by Gabor Mate. It's a new book on – it's not new, but it's one of the most revolutionary books on addiction I've ever read. It's hard to read, but it is remarkable. The second book is a book I read this year that was just astounding, and it's called The Unbroken brain a revolutionary way of understanding addiction and i'll mispronounce the author's name but it's my a m i a i salavitz s z a l a v i t z and again we'll link to that in the show notes as well it really reframes addiction it actually walks through the history of addiction how, how and why we started calling it a disease and the medicalization of it. And she reframes it as a learning disorder, as a way a body learns to cope over time. And when we think learning disorder, you think, oh, just stop. It's not that easy. It's still super complex complex but here's what's beautiful um we solve diseases by isolating

the disease into a into an isolated room and we give it medicine and we give it a plan and by looking at it as a learning as a learning disorder really um. You reframe learning disorders through active, intense connection, right? So here's the deal. Beating up an addict isn't helpful, right? Think of addiction as a connection disorder. It's somebody desperately trying to connect, and they can't for whatever reason. If they were traumatized as a kid and learned that relationships will abuse you, get you hurt, get you killed, then

relationships aren't safe. And at the same time, a body has to have relationships, and pills and alcohol can help sometimes. So beating up somebody, yelling at them, trying to give them new information, sending them books, I've just never seen that be successful. An addict has to decide, I'm done with this, and then they have to go get with part of a group, whether that's AA, whether that's a church, whatever that looks like, they have to get with a group of people and learn how to have relationship again, learn how to have safe, vulnerable interactions again. That's why so many people find AA successful. They get to practice relationships

together, practice vulnerability together that you can't do when other relationships are going to get you hurt. Some people don't like AA. I just, I think the idea of it is remarkable. So here's the things you can do. Okay. Number one is firm compassion. I love you, but here's my boundaries, right? So she can't show up at your house if she's been drinking. If she calls you and she's super drunk, say, hey, mom, I love you. I told you I can't talk to you when you're super drunk or you're super high. I love talking to you, though. So tomorrow I'd love to get together and talk to you.

Okay, so give me a call back and gently hang up the phone, right? This is you, compassionate and boundaries, okay? The second thing is getting on the same page with everybody. When's the last time you went and had just lunch or breakfast with your mom's sister? The one who's taking care of her, your dad, your little brother. Have you ever just gone out and talked to her? I haven't. Okay.

So you're 25 now. And so I would tell you, stop looking at this as a little boy, as a teenager. Start looking at this as at some point, you're going to be responsible for your mom's extended care. At some point, you're going to be responsible for your little brother. And so I'm going to start leveling up. And what leveling up means is I'm going to go out to lunch. I'm going to pay, and I'm going to take her out to lunch and first and foremost say, thank you so much for taking care of my family. You're a saint. You are a model for me as a young man.

I want to learn how and why. Tell me my mom's history. Tell me my dad's history. Tell me what makes my little brother tick, and just listen and learn from her. She sounds like a brilliant, wise, compassionate woman. And this is also going to put everybody on the same page. Probably do the same thing with your dad and start asking him questions. Does he have a special needs trust for your brother? Does he have a will? Some of those, these are just 25-year-old

man-to-man conversations now, okay? And what you're doing is you're getting everybody on the same page. And you can let everybody know, hey, here's my boundaries with mom. If she calls me and she's drunk, she calls me and she's hot, I'm just going to tell her I love her, but I'm not going to talk to her when she's this way. I'm going to hang up. If she shows up at my house drunk, she's not going to be welcome inside my house because my wife's here, my kids are here, et cetera, whatever that's going to look like for you. And then here's the number four. Constant, constant reaching out, whether that's text messages. I love, you know, if you listen to the show at all, I love the handwritten letter.

Every week, I'm going to sit down. This is for you, but it ends up being for her. Every week, you take 30 minutes to an hour and write her a letter. It could be one page, two page on notebook paper with the lines on it. And let her know how your week was. Let her know that you miss her. Hope she's doing great. But these letters over time,

it will slowly, and I'm talking like a drip, like trying to fill up a swimming pool with a tiny little drip. It's going to slowly reconnect with her. It's going to give her a part of her heart and her mind. This relationship's safe.

This relationship's safe. It could also spiral her into shame and all that. That's her mind, this relationship's safe. This relationship's safe. It could also spiral her into shame and all that. That's her situation, not yours. But I want you to have a, I want you to look up in five years and what's that? What's five times 50? I want her to hold 250 letters from her son. They just say pretty much some variation of this week was a hard week. This was a good week. I met a girl. My wife marriage is doing good. Whatever your life situation is, we're having a baby. And I want you to know I love you and I hope you're doing well. Right? If you can set up once a week or once every two weeks, hey, we're going to meet for breakfast at Cracker Barrel at nine o'clock. I'm paying. Here's the

thing. Sometimes she's going to show up drunk. Sometimes she's not going to show up at all. And it's going to hurt over and over again. But part of this is you healing too. And all you can heal is you and you heal through connection. So I'm going to keep reaching out. I'm going to keep reaching out. I'm going to keep reaching out. Okay. Don't take it personal when she doesn't show up. Don't take it like, oh, my mom hates me. She doesn't. She's just not well, right? She's really struggling. And then just know this. I've done this, man. Not with my mom, but I've had relationships with addicts, and it's just heartbreaking. And so you've got to take care of yourself, making sure you're eating well, making sure you're taking care of stuff. There's a part of your body and brain and heart that is going to need connection too, dude, because your mom wasn't there for you for a long, long time, right? Can I ask you this?

Do you have, what are your addictive mechanisms? What are your numbing behaviors? That's a good question. You've got them. What are they? Yeah. I definitely, there's, I've learned this, especially this year about myself, is my wife is the first one to point it out, which is awesome and not awesome at the same time. I was just about to say, awesome, not awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I am the, I'm, man, flee from conflict. Yep.

He's like my middle name. And so what that looks like is just like any hard thing. I'm just, how can I put every single little thing into my schedule so that I don't have a single second to think about a hard thing? There you go. And your schedule can become an addiction because it's your heart and mind and brain's way of trying to control everything because you lived in chaos, right? And here's the thing. It will move from your schedule to something else,

to something else, and it will just expand on you. And so learning how to do relational conflict now, relational conflict in the past got you hurt, right? It got you beat up. It got you set on fire. It got you, your mom took off on you or whatever. That's a corner, it's like air.

You got to learn how to do conflict for your marriage, for your kids. And so I, man, I can't recommend enough that you go see somebody. Go see them with your wife, right? And she sounds like an awesome, awesome woman, awesome partner for you. Go see somebody and let them know. I grew up in the home of an alcoholic.

I grew up in a home with divorce. I grew up with a special needs little brother. I got a lot to unpack and I got some skills I need to learn. I need to learn conflict. I need to learn what love looks like because I didn't see it growing up. I need to learn how to practice, how to have hard conversations because I got a lot of those ahead of me.

And then you and your wife are going to have to just understand probably we're going to be taking care of my little brother and have him around a lot, have him a part of your life, whatever that looks like for y'all. But yeah, you're at that 25 age and that's when things get hard. So I've given you a lot here. I'm not going to recap it all, brother. I want you to know this.

I'm grateful for your heart, man. It's a heartbreaking call when a son calls me and says, man, how do I love my mom? And my mom doesn't even love herself. It's hard and it's just got to keep showing up and got to keep showing up. Listen to this episode. Listen to it with your wife. Y'all come up with a game plan on what this is going to look like for y'all, what boundaries and compassionate boundaries are going to look like, what firm boundaries are going to look like. Take the folks out to dinner that you need to take them out. Get your will, get special needs stuff taken care of. And you're in it for a long haul brother but i wanted you to know there's healing and laughter and joy on the other end of this deal and i'm proud of you for being willing

to do the work you're awesome man all right let's take one more quick call let's go to hannah in fort wayne hannah what's going on hi how are you good how are you i'm pretty good good anyone says like oh pretty good you You're not. So what's up? Yeah, so I'm 33 years old. I never necessarily thought I had an anger issue. It never was visible in my childhood or anything like that. I think of myself as a pretty easygoing person, but my marriage has— Who in your life is telling you that you have an anger issue? Well, I mean, me when I—I mean, it's very evident that I do, but it has to do with my marriage. Okay.

So, you know, it has to do with when I make a mistake, which in marriage you do. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I do not ever, ever make a mistake. I'm totally kidding. I made like seven this morning. Okay. So whenever you make a mistake, then what? Um, so then, you know, I'll apologize for it and say, yeah, you know, I did that. Um, he'll, he'll ask me, you know, why did you do that? And I'll kind of explain or something. And then he'll say, well, you're making excuses. Um, and then I said, I'm not, I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to, to not, you know, do it again. I'm trying to just, you know, talk through it. And, um, and then,

you know, he'll say, you just need to just literally when I make a mistake and say, just, I don't know, I guess he doesn't want me to ever talk about anything of why and just own up to it. But, you know, I did apologize. What are these mistakes, Hannah? Is it like he keeps coming home and his best friend is in your bedroom? Is it this mistake or is it like I didn't take the trash out? No, I mean, it started early on. He's, um, like if I say things in front of his friends or family, um, that, you know, upsets him or embarrasses him, even if it's

like, you know, Drew doesn't like to eat vegetables. Um, you know, that he doesn't like, if I say that necessarily. Um, so, and I, I'm a very blunt, honest, that's a struggle for me. I mean, I, I'm just making conversation. I might, I mean, and I do say something I shouldn't say. And I understand that at the same time, I can't guarantee I'll never do that again. in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally immature, is they, for instance, are sitting somewhere and somebody brings out vegetables and you say, oh, he's not going to eat that. And then suddenly he gets his feelings.

Like that becomes a death blow to his soul, right? And then at home it becomes a whole thing. How dare you put me on blast in front of my friends and family and you're like dude i'm sorry i forgot about the don't thing about vegetables thing like i don't want to hear it you just don't even you know i don't you just make excuses right what happens in short order is you start feeling crazy and this is and this is this is like the gas lights burn brightly in hannah's home in fort wayne indiana okay and you start feeling crazy and then all of a sudden you start trying to filter everything that you say and every joke you tell and every like okay is this okay is this okay

and that bar moves because when somebody who's, when a great gaslighter gets a hold of somebody, they start, that finish line, there's never a moment when it would, then it will be, you didn't look at me enough, or you kept looking at that guy, or why are you talking to my mom more than me? And then you're like, okay, I'll solve for that problem. And then pretty soon you're just sitting at home not doing anything, right? And you feel insane. And then you get raged out, right? And so insanity I often like to describe as like being in a – like my shoulders are clenched right now.

Your whole situation is making me crazy. I don't get crazy on this show. This is one that makes my skin crawl. It's like being in a pet kennel, and then eventually you just rage. You just start rattling the cage, and then the person who's gaslighting you goes, see, see, and then you go, oh, I just did that. I've never done that. What's happening?

I must be crazy. And it just all reinforces itself in this weird nutty dance. Does that make sense? Yeah, that sounds exactly right. I can't stand this. How long have you been married to this guy? About nine and a half years.

Has this been going on forever or is it slowly just moving and moving and moving and moving? No, it started early on. Right away. Okay. Here's what I'm going to tell you. Two things.

This ends one of three ways. Not two ways, one of three ways. Number one, it ends with tragically some separation of some sort, and you are completely nutty. You are cooked. And he is self-righteous and dignified and justified and it ends with somebody having an affair or somebody just imploding. Okay?

And something just blows up. Right? Because here's what happens. And you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. You stop. You start keeping secrets. You stop telling him about things that happened at work. You stop telling him about the way you feel about something. And then eventually you will the way you feel about something.

And then eventually you will find someone else to talk to. Yes, that has happened. Yes. And he will, whether he cognitively knows it or not, he will feel that you stopped talking to him. And he has to connect. He's a person.

And he's going to find somebody to connect to. And all of a sudden, it's everybody's in la-la land and they didn't mean to get there. But that's, here's where we are. Right? So that's step number one. Step number two, everybody just slowly drowns. And you wake up and you've been married for 20 years and your roommates, you don't like him. He doesn't like you. Your kids are just whatever. And you go to baseball games and sit by each other, usually with a kid in the middle, right? And it's just a slow suffocation. Or the third is somebody turns all the lights on, stops the music, and stops this dance that's been going on for nine years now and says, I love you too much to let you continue to say I'm not a good person because I talk about vegetables. You've got to grow up and deal with your emotional immaturity. I do love you. And yes, I want to honor and respect your boundaries. And if you don't want me talking about our marriage or whatever out in public, fine. Also, you knew who you married and I'm loud and I'm fun and I like to be silly and I like to make jokes and that's the way I show love.

And yes, I go too far. And now I'm talking to myself here, by the way, Hannah. And I know there's certain, like, there's just certain things on this show I've talked about. And my wife has said, Hey, I heard from a friend that this came up. She didn't listen to the show. And she said, Hey, that's ours. Don't talk about that. And she was right. And I wasn't trying to mean or rude, but that was fair. But that line is not just continuing to move, right? But somebody has got to throw a flag and say, I'm going to see a marriage counselor. I'd love for you to come with us because I think our marriage is in trouble. And I'm telling you right now, it is in trouble. Okay. You should be able to be you and at the same time, be respectful and treat your husband with dignity. And at the same

time, he should be able to be him and treat you with dignity and respect. And this just sounds like a, it just sounds like the toilet bowl is starting to spin faster and faster and faster. And somebody's got to hit the pause button. Am I right? Yeah. Well, and we have done marriage counseling two different times. Okay. We have done marriage counseling two different times, both of me saying we need this because I'm like, I'm a crazy person. You know, I'm so like, I need help, you know, and one time he didn't want to do it.

And I was like, OK, well, I'm just going to go by myself. I'm just going to do it, you know. And then after a few sessions, this is my pastor's wife, you know, said we need to get him here, and so, yeah, we have done that. That's my other concern is I don't know. I feel like I'm always, you know, and to be honest, I did tell him about this call today because I... Oh, I just lost your hand. Are you still there? I want to make sure. Oh, there you go. Okay. You know, if he's not comfortable, I don't want to do it.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? Yeah, I got you back. There's a storm. I'm in my car. There's a storm. But, yeah, we've been down this road before. Okay. And, you know, I'm always the one that says we need help. Yeah.

So that's also a concern. It is, but he has no incentive to get help. Let's do about that. He has no incentive to get help because you change every time. And you're the crazy one, right? So there's no incentive. Okay. There's nothing in his world that is rattling his world because every time you rattle it

you fix it you stop doing your thing gotcha and so number one i'll act are you crazy no i don't think so okay now a lot of crazy people don't know they're crazy hannah or is it you uh i i i don't think so but i do get really frustrated when i'm when i do apologize and then and it's like i'm expected to be perfect. And I'm like, that's impossible. It is. You're right. You're right. It gets me. I mean, it is. So I, I've never, and I've never been treated this way before. I've never, I mean, this is all, so I don't think I am, but I've never been in this position before.

Exactly. That's right. So, um, man, do you have a relationship with his parents? Yeah. Yeah. We have good relationship with his parents? Yeah, yeah. We have a good relationship with both sides. Okay. I want you to read a book called, gosh, I just lost it. It's about emotionally mature parents. Adult kids, adult children of emotionally immature parents. I want you to read that book. Okay. Okay.

Okay. And it's a book for adult children who are trying to figure out why they are why they are, but, and it talks about their parents. But I've also seen couples go, oh, I live in this now. Okay. I want you to read that book. And if it hits home, maybe he'll read it too. Ultimately, I think you're going to need to find a therapist that is a relational life therapist

and that's out of the school of Terrence Real, Terry Real. You've got to find a therapist that will take your husband on. Mm-hmm. And most marriage and family therapists won't do that. And it's a shame, but some, and that will take you, too, because I know you're not perfect in this deal. But I also know nine years of scar tissue becomes nine years of scar tissue. Right. So I guarantee if he was on the phone, he would be telling me another story.

And his story probably makes sense, too. Okay. And if he wants to call me, I'd love to talk to him also. I don't want to paint him as the evil guy here but i yeah what you're telling me is just a playbook and i've seen it over and over and over again okay and i'm just telling you it doesn't end well and so i want somebody whether that's you flip on all the lights and say i'm gonna go take care of me because that's at the end of the day you've already tried marriage therapy you've got to find somebody that will take him on.

Call somebody and let them know and sit down and say, I want to get well. I want to take care of me. That doesn't mean you're trying to figure out ways that you can be perfect. That means that you are trying to figure out ways to deal with a heavy gaslighter, somebody who's emotionally immature, somebody who's struggling on their own

that doesn't have the skill set to be in a marriage right now, that doesn't know how to communicate well, right? And here's the other thing, Hannah, I've ganged up on him a little bit or a lot. If there are things like, hey, I don't want you talking about our sex life with our friends, then don't do that, right? There's a balance here too. Hey, I don't work out enough and I'm embarrassed about my body. Don't call me fatso. Whatever the thing is that there is a line there, right? That make sure that you're honoring and treating him with dignity too. But don't be in a relationship. I'm going to tell you to get divorced. I'm telling you,

don't be in a relationship where somebody is constantly making you feel insane, making you feel crazy, making you feel like you're evil. And you're sitting there going, I don't know what's going on here. You got to go see somebody. So get that book. We'll link to it in the show notes here. And then you start seeing somebody today. Call somebody today that you haven't talked to before and get straight to the point i live with a with a um fire breathing gas lighter and i don't know what to do anymore and i gotta learn some

skills on how to handle this invite him if he'll come and uh but he's gonna have to have a therapist that will take him on all right thank you so so much for the call hannah ah we'll be thinking about you i know those are hard hard hard hard hard. And to Hannah's husband listening to this, dude, I bet you're a good guy. In fact, I almost count on it. I bet you're a good guy. And I bet that everything feels personal and it feels like you're being attacked by a woman who loves you. And I want you to hear me say, I don't think she doesn't love you. I think she does love you a lot. I want you to have the courage and the strength to say, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm playing a part in this.

Maybe I've got a key role that I'm playing here. Maybe I've got to learn some new skills. Maybe every time my feelings get hurt, it isn't always somebody trying to go after me or hurt me. Maybe I need to learn some emotional intelligence or some relational intelligence. I need to learn some skills. Have the courage to do that, man, and go open-handed. Don't make a therapist take you on.

Go say, hey, I'm going to be vulnerable here. I can take things so personally, and I know this woman loves me. I got some things I got to learn. Go be brave, man. Go be brave. And call me back and let me know how that goes. All right? I'd love to talk to you.

All right, as we wrap up talk to you. All right. As we wrap up today's show, the song of the day, the greatest song ever written was chosen by Kelly. It's a song that makes your heart feel full. It's off the moon face record by the one and only Van Morrison. The song's called into the mystic. And it goes like this.

We were born before the wind, also younger than the sun. Air the bonnie boat was one, as we sailed into the mystic. Do you know what a bonnie boat is? I don't. Hark now, hear the sailors cry. Smell the sea and feel the sky. Let your soul and spirit fly. Where? Into the mystic. And when that foghorn blows, I'll be coming home. And when that foghorn blows, I want to hear it. I don't have to fear it. And I want to rock your gypsy soul. Kelly, I want to rock your gypsy soul just like way back in the days of old. And magnificently, we will float into the mysticic right here on the dr. John Deloney show