The Dr. John Delony Show - While We Were Separated, My Husband Fell for Someone Else

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

On today’s episode, we hear about: A woman whose husband started seeing someone while they we’re separated A wife struggling to get her husband to open up about sex A woman unsure how to encourage her husband to make friends   Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭 John’s Free Guided Meditation  🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch   Connect With Our Sponsors: Need to talk to someone? BetterHelp is virtual therapy when it’s convenient for you. Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. These are BEST sheets and towels in the world. Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.   Getting lots of spam calls? DeleteMe can clean up your online presence for you. Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe.  Find peace every day. Hallow is the simplest way to slow down and get your head right for the day. Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial.  I have Helix Midnight mattresses in EVERY bedroom in my house. Get 20% off when you visit Helix Sleep and take the sleep quiz to see what you need!  Get the exact same green and red powders that I take every day. Get 20% off with code DELONY at Organifi.   I took Thorne supplements way before I worked at Ramsey. Stoked that we can work together now! Get 25% for LIFE at Thorne.    Need a training plan? Accountability? Coaching? Trainwell has you covered. Go to Trainwell to get started! Head over to Poncho Outdoors to try the best outdoor performance shirt for yourself!   Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights  🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership   Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about eight months. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce and signing the papers, it was about six weeks, he had developed feelings for someone else. Well, I mean, it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife What's going on what's going on this is John with the dr. John Delaney show Coming to you live from Nashville except you're listening to this not live so hopefully they edit out the parts where I'm not very good at this job, but For the last 20 plus years I've been sitting with hurting people who are trying to figure out what's the next right move in my life. And that's what this

show is. Real people going through tough times trying to figure out what's the next right move. And I don't know anybody right now. Nobody. People who are struggling financially, people are struggling emotionally, struggling with their kids, struggling with politics, struggling with like their marriages. I don't know anybody who's not sitting in it trying to figure out what's the next right move. And so if you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you. JohnDeloney.com ask ask and fill out the form and it will go to Kelly 1.0 and 2.0 and they'll build up build out the show and hopefully we'll have you on. Love to talk to you. Let's go out to Atlanta, Georgia and talk to Melissa. Hey, Melissa, what's up?

Hi, Dr. John. So about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about eight months. And during that time, we separated because I wasn't seeing any change behaviors. And upon signing some papers to actually get a divorce, I wanted to have one last question with him or one last conversation just to get more clarity and understanding. And that actually led to us reconciling. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce

and signing the papers, it was about six weeks, he had developed feelings for someone else, a coworker. And I let him know that if we were going to move forward, um, I wasn't comfortable with him being friends with this person. So after some conversations, we decided to move forward with our marriage. And so after some conversations, we decided to move forward with our marriage. And now that we've been married for almost 12 years, I just found out that he's still following her on social media and, you know, we'll chat with her every now and again. And so I'm just feeling a little distrust and I'm wondering how to move forward in

my marriage when he doesn't see that as a problem. Mm-hmm Why'd you choose to separate at the beginning? Well, we were First married for seven years and during that time he didn't have a full-time job ever And I really supported us through that while he was chasing his dreams and his career. And so for a little bit, I was like, okay, I signed up for this for helping him kind of get to where he wants to be. But I didn't sign up for seven years of being the sole provider. And so there wasn't really any change behavior whenever I would ask him about that.

And I decided, you know, we, well, we decided, I guess, but really I prompted it. I said, I think we need to separate so you can understand the full responsibility of being an adult, paying your own bills, making your own money and understand what I'm going through. And so we were still, you know, considering ourselves married, we still had date night and all that, but just not living in the same place. What was his job?

What was he trying to do? Be a full-time musician. Okay. So he was out there grinding it. Was he laying around all day? Was he trying to book shows? He was at home practicing and some shows are running on again. Okay. Hmm. When you had the conversation with him about being friends with somebody, how'd

that go? Well, he... I mean, it was basically more than a friendship. So the context there is he was really upset at me after I said I wanted to continue the marriage because he felt like he had already processed through the grief of that and then allowed himself to develop feelings for this coworker. And so that was definitely a tension that we had to navigate. And he, I mean, he just didn't feel like it was a problem because there wasn't actually a relationship happening between them.

So I guess the word that keeps coming to mind is clarity or something we say around the office all the time and I've said to people for years is clear as kind. And so, tell me if I'm wrong here, but there's a difference in saying, I'm signing up to follow your dreams. I'm increasingly frustrated that you're not making any money or you're not moving the family along in a way that I want to. So back then, was there ever a conversation about, I know you have this dream, I know you wanna do this.

At the end of every month, for us, we need you to bring in this many dollars. Or was it always, okay, tell me about that. So there were definitely conversations around that. And I said, this is just the way of the land, this is what has way of the land. This is what has happened thus far. And I'm not upset at that because there is some amount of investment that needs to go into this,

but I need your help. This is the amount of money we need you to bring in. And I mean, he's really never had a full-time job at that point. And so it was difficult for him to understand what that meant and how he could do it. And so he would get small jobs every year. And again, and it wasn't really ever enough. And it wasn't actually a behavior change.

And so I I mean that was the reason why we got separated and when we did that actually did work he went he got a job found roommates paid his own bills and was responsible for all of that so because of that behavior change and learning about it at the end of it we decided to move forward. And so where are you now? Well now, I have, so since then I have asked him, you know, recently finding out that he still is in contact with her. I expressed, you know, I feel really uncomfortable with this because she messaged you after you

told her we were working on our marriage, like you deserve you know to be with someone who Treats you better or something like that. Okay, that's super fair then that means yes I she's not getting the message and that that deserves a total cutoff not talking to you end of communication totally get that Mm-hmm, and so how can I help you? Yeah, so I'm just wondering what, how I move forward with this or what's the conversation I can have with him to help him understand the severity of it. Well, I mean, it sounds like the language you're using, it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife.

And he's shown the ability to, when he's on his own, to go do his own thing. But there's something about y'all's dynamic that he immediately falls into yes ma'am, or ignoring you, like teenage boys do with their moms, right? And what I'm wondering is one of two things. One is he has maybe what I would call an emotional, I'll call it romantic because that's kind of just silly, an emotional connection with somebody else that he doesn't have with you because you're his mom and he likes the idea of a girlfriend.

That's one idea. Another idea is he's just a complete and utter man child liar. Or the third thing is a weird combination of both, which is you married a musician with dreams of both of y'all hitting it big, right? He hits it big and you get to go along for the ride and that creates a cool life of y'all hitting it big, right? He hits it big and then you get to go along for the ride and that creates a cool life for y'all. And then you would say, hey, we need this dollar amount. I need you to, you have to go make $650 this month.

Like through any number of combination of things, shows, whatever, but you gotta make this much money because this is how much it takes to run this house. And maybe he would play one show and work some odd jobs and come up with 500 of that or 600 of that. But for you, that finish line kept moving. And it was like, no, no, no, I don't mean get a part-time job to get that 650.

I meant you need to get a real job. And you see what I'm saying? Like the bar just keeps moving and moving. I don't want you to be friends. Okay, I won't. I'm gonna go sit down with her and say, I thought I was getting divorced. I was already starting to look over the fence and I'm not doing that anymore. This is over.

And then she's like, cool and reaches back out. Like, are you sure? And you see what I'm saying? I'm just wondering if he is in a position, I'm not saying what he's doing is right. In fact, if he was on the phone right now, I would be all over him for still having contact with this person. But I'm wondering if he is in a position where he can ever win with you, or is the finish line keep moving and moving because you're just wholly unsatisfied with him as a guy that sounds like you don't respect him. And it's hard to be romantically involved with somebody that you do not respect.

Are you a safe place for him to come home to? I believe so. And he can just drop down and tell you what's going on in his heart and his mind and with his music and with the songs and his writing and all, you're a safe place for that? Yeah. Okay.

Then have you sat down and said, I feel less loved and less safe when you're talking to this person. That's why yeah And he said I don't really care how you feel or what you want He said well, she's just a friend. I don't know what you want me to do Okay, then what he's doing is he's saying I'm choosing her over you. It's just that simple exactly He's using whatever friendship that is over my feelings and I don't really

know what next steps are. I think you do know what the next steps are. They're just really challenging. Let's sit down and let's use I statements. Okay. And maybe you spend some time really getting to the bottom of what you are experiencing. And say the words, when you enter into that conversation with you and then you and then you, then he's going to play defense. I don't understand why you're being like this. I don't understand why that, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a different path to get to where you really wanna get to,

which is why is my husband, the guy that I'm trying to build something with, why is he getting emotional connection? Why is he getting his needs met with another woman? That makes me feel small and less than. Because then you start trying to defend yourself with, I make all this money, I have a job in the business world. I'm letting you go play music for a living. I'm right.

And now we're into scorekeeping. Then we're getting into contempt. I am somehow better than you in this relationship. And so why are you doing this? Well, I've definitely been there before and have worked through that. And so, yeah, I completely agree been there before and have worked through that. And so, yeah, I completely agree that there's a lot of things that I need to do on my side to maybe communicate that better. And I certainly have expressed it in that way.

It makes me feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And... What's the thing beneath what's the thing beneath uncomfortable? What's the thing When I say that what do I mean your body makes you feel uncomfortable? But feelings are simply the lights on a dashboard of your car. What is that discomfort? What is it signaling to your body? Yeah, but I'm not enough. There you go

That's what he needs to hear. I feel like not enough. And I've tried to get your love by making a bunch of money. I've tried to get your love by letting you go do this stuff that I still think is kind of boyish and childish, but go be you. And I don't feel like I'm enough. And then maybe asking a hard question, do I make you feel like you're not enough?

But that's the only way you're gonna get to the true root of this issue. And if he says, I just can't talk to you about this stuff and I like her company more than yours, then you got a guy who is invested in another woman. You're gonna have to deal with that reality, which might put you back at that table of, I don't wanna be married to you then.

Often though, when people get to the underneath that you make me feel uncomfortable, you're making me feel like this, instead of saying, I feel less than That's almost always the place where the only true healing can happen is there Because my hope is he's a guy who doesn't want to make his wife feel less than My hope is he's a guy who has figured out I can't talk and be fully myself in my own home. And so I'm doing something that's wrong and unethical and not integrist by reaching out to other women to get that.

But that's the true nature here. And that's the conversation it feels like y'all are avoiding. Maybe you haven't avoided that and you've actually said those things in the past. And if so, then you've got a hard decision to make about you've got a husband who is emotionally invested in another woman and is having his needs met there. that's emotional infidelity and you're going to have to deal with that and I can't tell you how to deal with that whether you leave that marriage you make peace and that's going to be your call to make. But I always want people to take that one last step and go one layer deeper and say

here's what my body's trying to get my attention about, I feel small and less than in my own house. I'm trying to love you and I'm not getting through. And also say this to you and to everybody, listen, it feels like when you come through a big monumental moment in a marriage, like you guys did, you were at the table to sign divorce papers and you walked away and you said, no, let's do this again. It feels like that will be the once and for all.

That's the last time we'll ever come to a crossroads. And I guess what I wanna pass along to everybody is marriage is full of multiple crossroads. And you can look at those one of two ways. You can look at crossroads that come up on multiple occasions as this is the last straw. One time it was about money. Now it's about I'm asking you to not follow somebody on money. Now it's about, I'm asking you to not follow somebody

on Instagram. Now it's about you're yelling at our kids and I want you to yell. You can say, strike three, you're out. I'm out of this thing. Or you can look at it this way. My wife said this once and I love it. She said, because of the hard stuff we've been through,

I know there's nothing that we can't overcome. So when we come to these new crossroads and these new crossroads, it's a moment to exhale because we've been through hard stuff before. And so we can get through hard stuff again. All that's going to matter though, is if both of you can get to the real root and say, here's where I am on this one. And hear me say everybody, I think he's wrong. I think he's in the wrong.

But there may be a context to his action and that's what I want you to explore. Thanks for the call sister. I really, really appreciate it. And if he ever wants to call, I'd love to talk to him too. We come back. A woman wants to know how to help her husband open up about sex. All right. It's time for a quick word about Delete Me.

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and use code deloney to save 20%. That's 20% off your entire order with code deloney at organifi.com slash Delonie. All right, let's go up to Canada, to Edmonton and talk to Rachel. Hey, Rachel, what's up? Hey, John. So, my husband and I have been married for almost 20 years. We both come from conservative backgrounds. Over the past few years, I've been doing a lot of inner work to heal from shame and harm caused by the church impurity culture. And as a result, I now feel a sense of freedom in this area and have been the one initiating conversations with my husband about sex. He will engage, but says the topic still makes him uncomfortable and has said he would honestly prefer not to talk about it at all. How can

I help my husband be more comfortable discussing sex? Wow. So tell me, like, give me an example of a situation where he just shuts down. So I shared with him, like one of my fantasies and he just listened and didn't really respond at all. I have asked him like, what turns you on? Like for me, it's this thing or that thing. Well, what gets you excited? And he's like, when you're naked and doesn't say anything. gets you excited and he's like when you're naked and doesn't say anything and I'm like okay oh the simple male mind all the all the all the guys in the booth are just nodding like well that's kind of it so I'm like there has to be more like I guess there's there's two sides of this number one tell me why there has to be more. What if, what if his ultimate fantasy is you?

Yeah. And that may not be the case, and I know there's deeper layers to this, but I just wanna hold that potential. What if the source of his fantasy is you? I guess I never thought about it that way. Cause in my head I'm like, oh, you know, I assumed you would like this thing or what about this?

Or I have fantasies about doing this with you. Like, what about you? And he'll respond like nothing. And I'm like, oh. Okay, but when you try to enact some of your fantasies with him, does he go along with it? Is he all in?

No, he'll be like, oh, that's crazy dirty or just listen and not really say anything. And then it just makes me feel kind of stupid for being so vulnerable. Okay, there it is right there. I feel like it wasn't well received. So that I think is the first thing I wanna talk through. You've done all this work to heal from shame,

but you moved from your parents' approval to your church's approval. And now you've wiped that up. You haven't wiped it clean, that's not fair. You have unhooked yourself from those judgments, but you outsourced it to him. Right. And now he's like, yeah, that's just,

that's kind of out there. And that, that nine-year-old girl or that 17-year-old girl or that 22-year-old girl goes all the way back again. Yet another person telling you that the way you feel about sex is somehow wrong or dirty or not enough. So tell me about the outsourcing of that. Could you clarify your question? Do you feel like you're gross for having a fantasy that you want to try out with your husband? I mean, I don't want to feel gross because I'm so happy that I don't feel shame anymore.

Yeah, except you do feel shame when he looks at you and doesn't answer you back. Yeah, I feel like kind of like he's judging me. There you go. Is he really judging you? Cause if he is and he's a jerk and we can take a different path here. Is he judging you or is he just saying,

oh, I'm not into that fantasy, but good on you. I don't think he's judging. I think it is just kind of like, oh, that's a crazy fantasy yours, but yeah, he's not into it. Okay. Does it feel lonely or isolating? Are you feeling nuts?

What do you feel? Yeah, I guess I just feel like I'm so excited and like all in this area. And I feel like he just wishes I would have stayed in this box. Ah, there you go. Is that a story you're telling yourself or has he told you that story?

That's a dream telling myself. Okay. Is there anything in your mind or your, more than your mind and your experience that says he doesn't love being with you? He doesn't like making love to you, doesn't like going along with some of your wild stuff? Maybe not the extent fantasies, but like, all right, I want to try this tonight.

He's like, absolutely not. We're not doing that. We are going old school missionary. We're done in 30 seconds and we're like, or does he go along with you? He sometimes will be flexible, but he's a man of routine for sure. Okay. He just likes the good old classic. A man of routine, that's fantastic.

Good old classic. Just know that millions of men listening to this are just banging their dashboard in their car right now. Like, why? And so have you gone, again, I feel like this is kind of a recurring theme in the show. Have you gone that layer deeper and said, hey, I've put some things on the table, I've tried to be vulnerable.

And when you just kind of blow it off, I feel that deep sense of shame again. I feel like you don't like the person who I don't feel like you like a sexualized wife that wants to be with you all the time and be curious and be playful and be exploratory together. Yeah, I've said that. And we're just in different places right now, which is fine. I don't think anybody's desires match up 100% of the time. And so for me, I'm the one with the higher interest

and he's not. And so I think it's harder too for him to want to be all in when he's just mentally not. What's making him understand? Why isn't he mentally in? He's shared, you know, he feels nothing lately. Like he doesn't feel excitement. He doesn't feel joy.

He doesn't look forward to anything. And we've talked about, you know, him possibly seeking out therapy or seeing a doctor and things like that and he isn't interested and so you know just any excitement at all and never mind when it comes to the bedroom he's just he's a good loving husband and he'll participate but Is that, how much of this story is that? That you're watching the life drain out of the guy that you love. Yeah, I thought about that lately.

He hasn't been, you know, when you meet, of course, like two decades ago, you're different, you're teenagers, you have no responsibilities, no kids. But he was definitely more full of life and vibrant and fun and funny. And he hasn't been that way for a long time. Yeah. And is there some part of you, the person raised a people pleaser to please everybody at your church and please everybody at your house that is trying to run around and trying to solve that for him? Or that's taking ownership? I know, it's hard for me not to feel his mood. If he's depressed and I feel depressed and I'm like, how can I fix it? Or if he's angry, I feel like I turtle and I did something wrong. It's hard for me

not to feel his emotions. But I know that I can't fix anything that's up to him that's his job. I know but can I just tell you you're a pretty amazing wife. Thank you. This is when a lot of wives cash out. And I'm so grateful to know there's a wife like you out there that loves her husband so much that she sees him dying in his own skin and is really trying to make an effort to reach out to him. That's awesome.

Thank you. And when we're live such busy lives, you'll have kids too? Okay, you got kids running around, you just got chaos everywhere. A lot of times, especially in certain seasons, the only thing we have left to get our pulse rate up is not on a screen somewhere is sex. And I mean, I high five you for getting like going and going back and mining your depths and getting your healing done and for exhaling. Honestly for his sake and for your marriage to sake, I really think you'll need to go

talk to somebody. And I know it can be hard when you have a stubborn husband who just is like, I ain't doing that or I'm too busy or whatever. But I think it's worth saying, hey, I'm not doing a great job of communicating with you. And I'd love for you to go talk to somebody with me because I want to do a better job.

It would mean a lot if you came with me. So what if I have said that and he's already said he doesn't want to? Then I think the next layer is, is I'm feeling unsafe and unloved in this house. Because that's the truth. Yeah. Do you ever say this? I need you. I want you. Yeah, I do need and want you.

Yeah, I do need to want him. I don't know how often I say that, but. I can just tell you, I was on the road for the last two months. I was touring all over the place and I got home and things are always a little bit just, everyone's just trying to figure out their routines. And I missed finals week for my son. I was just out and about. And my wife just said a week ago, sitting by each other on the front porch looking out over our property, she said, I think I realized why I was just out of sorts.

And I was like, why is that? And she said, I need you. I'm gonna tell you right now, dude, I got a great marriage, but that felt like a cup of cold water in a desert. There's a lot of conversation about quote unquote mental load that women carry and it's exorbitant. It's crazy. It's a lot.

It's astounding. The dentist appointments and the schools out and the lunches and all of it and the bills, like there's so much, I get it. I think there's been a misrepresentation or a lack of understanding or not even conversation about the mental load that men carry. It's so heavy and it's way out into the future and it's not always real, but it's so heavy.

And most men I know are walking around their lives feeling like they're just a failure at everything. And so some, a wife reaching out and grabbing their husband's hand figuratively or literally saying, I need you. This is a path you can love me and I'm asking you to come with me. I'm not telling you, you need to,

I'm asking you please come with me. That might be the shot. And all I'm asking you please come with me. That might be the shot. And all I can say is that worked with me. And I thank God every day in my life that my wife asked me to do that because it unlocked healing in me that I didn't know needed to be healed. And I think I'm an infinitely better husband

and a better communicator and a better dad, better citizen, because my wife said I need you. Thanks for the call sister. I'm really, really grateful. And hey, I would be honored if he would call in. He probably won't, but man, I would love to talk to him. That would be awesome.

Cause I've been in that seat before. I'd love for him to call. We come back. A woman asks how to raise concern for her husband's lack of friends. And look, we've got a theme on this show. Be right back. Poncho is back as a supporter of this show and I'm stoked about it. If you have seen me speaking on stages across the country if you watch this show or if you

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Go to ponchooutdoors.com slash deloney and trust me, poncho ultralight shirts will turn into your summer essentials, too. All right, Charlotte, North Carolina. Let's talk to Morgan. Hey Morgan, what's up? Hey, how are you? I'm all right. How about you?

Getting excited to cannonball into this question, as I've heard you say. Let's do it. Cannonball, top rope. Let's do it. Cannonball top rope. Let's do it. So how do I kindly encourage my massively introverted husband to make friends because I am his only best friend. And if I, if something happened to me, he would have his family who are lovely people, but he has no like really close male friendships he did in college, but those have dissipated.

They still like group text occasionally, but I just, am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Ant Hill? No, molehill. And is it, how do I go about this? Cause I just, I'm lost. No, I mean, there's multiple things here, but no, your instincts are right. Men are lonelying themselves to death in record numbers. Right.

Yeah. They are Netflixing themselves to death. They are gambling themselves to death. They are Netflixing themselves to death. They are gambling themselves to death. They are lonelying themselves. They're pornographying themselves to death. They're just slowly dying. Most of that, I think, comes from there's no more shared purpose. There's zero shared purpose anymore.

It doesn't exist. And I think there's not a, there's not a, like, that's why there's those long text threads. That was the last, like there's reasons why 40 year old men get together and still talk about that old football game that one time. Because that was the last time most men were a part of something bigger than themselves. Yeah. And he like, I'm flying out to see my best friend tomorrow and I'm coming back Sunday and I know while I'm at work, I know exactly what he's going to do. He's going to, or while I'm visiting her, he's going to go to work. He's going to come home, take care of our dogs, cook himself dinner, watch him show

or read a book, good or bad. Like I could, I would bet my left arm that that is what he's gonna do. And it's just, it's not great. And it makes me sad. And I don't know what to do about it. But let's not judge him for the life that he's choosing, get to the deeper pathology or the deeper struggle here, to use a not nerdy word.

Are you being asked to carry a disproportionate, or let me ask you this way, have you become his trash dump? You're the only person he talks to about politics, about religion, about work, about money, about people, and you just get dumped on every day? I would describe it not as getting dumped on. I mean, but yes, I'm pretty much his everything. I'm his best friend and we get it. Like he is a lovely human. Like we get along great.

We have a ton of fun together. And he does have a coworker who he's like a previous coworker, I'm sorry, who he hangs out with like once every three to six months and she's great. Like they get along great. But like that's kind of the extent of his socialization and he had like some really good friends in college but...

Is he happy? Is he happy? Is he happy or are you seeing something in him that you're worried about? So we check in and I ask like, hey, are you happy? I haven't more normally it's more in a romantic sense. But yes, like he says he's happy. The last check in we had was like a couple weeks ago and it was great. Like he said, Hey, I am happy. And it was, um, the world context, I was having a panic

attack. He sat through it with me and part of the panic attack was something that he said one way that I heard a totally different way. What was that? What do you say? um, basically, so we it was a Saturday and I We just come back from the grocery store and he was about to go outside to mow the lawn and we didn't do all that man stuff and He we were gonna go see a movie and I basically was just like, I don't think we have time. And so what he said was, it's okay, I'm used to it. And what he, but he generally meant that like, it's okay,

like it's not a big deal. I heard it as I am unhappy, we get to, we don't get to go, you know, do things like what I want. And that's not what he meant. That's how I heard it from my own issues and trauma and blah, blah, blah. So I had a panic attack. So it was kind of like the needle that,

or the straw that breaks the camel's back. And he saw me had it. He sat through with them before with me and held my hand and you know, been great. And so he went outside after I finished and then he came back and was like, hey, I just want you to know, I'm really sorry. I said, like, it came out that way. I love you and I'm happy. And that's the that's the context that he said. So, so he was completely unbothered that he doesn't have any friends. And so I don't know if I'm making a big deal,

but I know if he didn't have me, he would not have any close relationships. And it kind of- But hold on, hold on, hold on. It bothers me. I think the two things. One, he may be such a good man in his mind that he always wants to make sure he's available for you

in case something happens. I never thought of that. He may love you so much that he, how dare he go waste time drinking beers with some buddies watching the fights. Because if my wife has a panic attack, if my wife isn't okay, I'm going to be here. That's true. Hold on, hold on. It may be that you are making up a story in your mind that if it weren't for you, he would have nothing.

A harder reality is if you were to go away, he might have lots of fun and friends. You know why? Hold on, hold on. You know why? Because he did before. Yeah. Just sit in it. Hold on, just sit in it. He did before.

And so the reality is he just might. And you have to ask yourself, whoa, if he was going out to hang out with friends once a weekend and once or twice, would I be okay with that? Or if he texted me and said, hey, I'm running 30 minutes late and I spun off into a panic attack again because I'm so close to the edge most of the time, would I be okay if he wasn't there to sit with me and ride it out? Well and he, I mean, yes, I've had them when I'm completely alone.

And I'm medicated, like, I mean, it doesn't happen like every day or anything. But I don't know if that's the issue or not. Because he had, what I was trying to get to earlier was, so he had a really good group of friends in college, and he was even supposed to go on a boys trip with them last November, but he canceled, not because of me, they like to party, and he's just passed that in his life. And they were just talking about some things that made him uncomfortable.

And so he just bailed and made up an excuse. And so, but I encouraged him, I was like, you should totally go have a great time. I'll take care of the dogs. Don't worry about anything. And so those are the only other people that he has like even remote friendships with and they group text occasionally but that's it and so I don't really know what to do. So here's a path forward. One is I would sit down with him and say, hey, I want us to make more friends around town. And you're about to get on a plane and fly away to your friends.

I want you to start being vocal about, I want us to have friends locally here. And my wife and I, I left in my own devices, I would end up with my old text threads and I'd hang out with nobody ever, ever. And I would go hunting in the fall with people, but here's what happens when you go hunting, nobody says anything, you're not allowed to talk. And we'd go sit in the woods next to each other

and say no words. And then I'd go and be like, all right, way to go. And then I'd help somebody drag a deer out of the woods. And then I'd go and be like, all right, way to go. And then I'd help somebody drag a deer out of the woods. And then I'd be like, man, I hung out with my friends. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so left to my own devices, I could get there really quickly.

And here's the, here's, I've dug into why, here's why. I have no shared experiences with somebody. And in a man's world, leading with emotions or with vulnerability is a way to get yourself excommunicated from the party. And so this sounds so ridiculous, but when I say, Hey, we're having a couple over for dinner. My wife's like, awesome. Who is it?

And I tell them, she's like, great. That's cool. Now I've got a shared purpose. That's why guys go stand around a grill because they can pretend that they're doing a thing Yeah, because in their normal day if I just sit on a couch and be like, hey, bro, how's your heart? It'd be like, all right. I'm not coming back here But when we grill together and we're shoulder to shoulder and I can say I've been worried about my finances lately He can go without making eye contact.

Yeah, I know, man. And hey, can you help me build a fence? Can you help me move a thing? Andrew, who's over here running the screens right now, I asked him, can I hire you for a Saturday to teach me how to weld and teach my son how to weld? I want my son to learn how to do it more than me. I think in the world he's inheriting, he's gonna have to learn how to weld. So I wanna know how to do it. And he knows how to weld. I want my son to learn how to do it more than me. I think in the world he's inheriting,

he's gonna have to learn how to weld. So I wanna know how to do it. And he knows how to do it. Yeah. But I didn't ask Andrew to come over to my house and share his feelings with me. But I promise you, through welding, spending a day welding together,

he'll learn a lot about my feelings and how insecure I am. You get what I'm saying? And so setting up things that we can technically do together, or there are shared experiences, or in our house, we had to put one on the calendar. We will have one couple, we'll have one group of people to our house once per week, period. That's just a rule we made in the house. And we don't always stick to it, but most of the time we have somebody over at the house. Yeah. And it's a wacky cascade of characters that comes over to our house.

And I love it. I love it for us. I love it for our kids. I love it for my friends. All of it. And I've made some great friends out of it. So more of like a, hey, let's do this together type of thing. I think absolutely.

So that's my thought there, Morgan. I think you have to wrestle with, he doesn't seem that there's a problem. And so feeling the problem in your chest and then saying you need to go do this to fix my angst, that's a recipe for things not getting fixed. Or for him going to sit at a bar with a couple of dudes and being like hey hey have you tried the hot hot wings no cool all right man see you later like big gulps huh like it's just not a recipe for that shared experiences now we're talking now we're talking now. We're talking Hey, we come back

I Have a very important segment that I've never done before so hang with me It's cozy earth time Listen hearing the term nine to five Yeah, what a drag it makes me think of a boss with coffee breath or co-workers that have no boundaries or some of you are working from home with kids running around and dogs barking everyone acting bonkers. That's why Cozy Earth wants to make your five to nine the time that matters most the most comfortable part of your day. Cozy Earth is a big part of how my wife and I make

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Sleep cooler, lounge lighter, and stay cozy. All right, we're back. So a few weeks ago, I was on tour and I had an opportunity to meet with a woman who's become a great friend of mine over the last five years and she is an executive at BetterHelp. The the counseling service that I recommend that online that's available 24-7, like that was not 24-7, but it's available online or on your phone. We had a great conversation backstage and she sent me a study and I just want to just call out. I'm always skeptical of studies

especially that are done by companies, right? Cause I always think, man, there's gonna be a bias there. But I read through it and I think this study's exactly what I'm reading in the regular literature. And that's especially what I'm experiencing with people over and over and over again. especially what I'm experiencing with people over and over and over again. And so the name of the study,

they named it is the state of stigma. And here's some of the data points in this study. 76% of people, that's seven and a half out of 10 people believe that talking to a therapist is actually helpful. Six out of 10 people though, believe that society discourages people from actually talking to somebody.

And if you dump men into that conversation, as some of the calls on this show, I think it's even higher. There's this idea that if I go talk to a counselor, if I go talk to a therapist, I have failed in my ability to fix myself. We don't think that about air conditioning, we don't think that about a roof, we don't think about a crack in our driveway,

but for some reason we think if I have to go talk to somebody, I have failed me. Or I can just put the answers into chat GPT as though the answer is what I'm looking for. Here's another one. Gen Z is highly engaged in mental health content. They scroll these things. They listen to my show and other shows like it.

They are scrolling TikTok, but they're very distrustful of therapy. Saying that a therapist would never understand me. Here's another one. Those spending four plus hours on social media are more likely to feel judged and skeptical of therapy. By the way, if you pull that data further, people spending four plus hours on social media

feel like everyone in every circle is judging them. That's why there is caustic literature about girls, especially teenage girls and being on social media a lot. And if you add different types of behaviors like violence behaviors or checking out completely and just playing video games 19 hours a day, boys are experiencing it too. It just looks different. The pathology is expressed in different ways.

Here's another one. Parents of young kids strongly believe in therapy but face high stigma and high cost and high time barriers. I don't have time to leave work, drive for 45 minutes in traffic, go talk to a therapist for an hour and then drive 45 minutes back. If I'm working hourly, I just burn three hours of wage,

not to mention how much it costs to go see the therapist. So here's the deal. There is stigma when it comes to getting help. And I am so, one of the highest honors I've ever been able to experience in my life is the millions of people that listen to the show or watch this show It's amazing and I get your letters and I get your DMS and I get your emails and I get so much great feedback on when I'm on the road and thousands of people come out to a live event just the lines and I'm signing books and

man, it means the world to me that you're picking up ideas and It means the world to me that you're picking up ideas and learning things, that's amazing. And you're applying them in your homes with your kids, with your spouses, with your boyfriends and girlfriends, with your workplace, that's so great. So I do this show and there's a percentage of people, a large percentage of people that like myself need to go sit down and exhale in front of somebody

and be seen and be heard for the first time. So I just want to say this. A, I want to thank my buddy at BetterHelp and I want to thank the BetterHelp people that like when there's lines of like, yeah, you can come see this therapist. There's a six month waiting list or yes, you can come see this person, but you got to pay $200 because they only take cash and they don't have $200, right? I want to say this out loud. If you're struggling with something,

please go talk to somebody. Call one of your buddies. I promise you one of your buddies is going through something similar. I promise you. Before you blow your marriage up, before you text that man or that woman back, before you go spend money that you don't have,

talk to somebody, talk to a friend. If you're a person of faith and you have a safe religious community, not that someone's gonna beat you up for having thoughts or fears or anxieties, go talk to somebody at your local church. If you can go see a counselor or a therapist in your local community, please go do that.

I do that regularly. And if cost is an issue, if time is an issue, if convenience is an issue, if just the anonymity is an issue, please reach out to my friends at BetterHelp. We have to as a community as a society we have to go through that stigma We've got the world needs a whole bunch of regulated adults because things are skidding off the tracks and

Look around at what you've tried to do to solve your anxiety to to solve your depression, to solve your... You're yelling at your kids, to solve your frustration. Every time your spouse says something you just go into a hole or you want to come out swinging. What we're doing isn't working. And it's strange that all the literature points back to other people are the solution for so much of these issues. So, please jump right through that stigma. I know it's real. I felt it myself. I remember the first time I took anxiety meds

and I sat at my kitchen table and I wept. I felt like such a loser and a failure. I've been there, I've been there, I've been there. Walk through the stigma and reach out and talk to somebody. And I'm telling you right now, men, I'm especially talking to you. I don't care how many tattoos you have, I don't care how big your truck is,

I don't care how much you think you're feeling, your wife or your kids, call somebody. I love you guys. Bye.