The Dr. John Delony Show - Why Do I Keep Dating Addicts?

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

On this extra spooky episode, we hear about: - A woman with a history of dating addicts who now finds herself with a man new to recovery - A law student afraid of spiraling back into anxiety and depression - Delony’s perspective on why humans actually enjoy getting scared on purposeLyrics of the Day: "This is Halloween" - "The Nightmare Before Christmas" Soundtrack  Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Churchill Mortgage Thorne Add products to your cart create an account at checkout Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: Own Your Past, Change Your Future Questions for Humans Conversation Cards Redefining Anxiety Quick Read John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. I think I've only dated alcoholics. I feel like I've done a lot of work the last couple of years. I took some time off dating, and it was like immediately the first. So out of the potpourri of humans, I picked the one that is an alcoholic. What's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. And why are we yelling? Sorry.

If you were just driving down the road having a good morning and all of a sudden I start yelling, I'm sorry. I'm just in a great mood today. And there's this new energy drink called Kill Cliff. It's not new and it's not energy. It's not like monster big tires on your truck energy, but I had some this morning and my wife said, you probably shouldn't drink that anymore because already you're a lot and if you add this to it, makes you a lot, a lot. And my kids suggest that just regular lots enough. But I'm glad that you're with us on the world's greatest mental health and marriage and parenting show ever.

We have a packed audience. We don't have a packed audience. We have a few people. It's good to see everybody out there. And if you want to be on the show, give us a buzz at 1-844-693-3291. And this is a special, special episode. It's a special Halloween episode. So hang with us. We're going to take a couple of calls and we're going to do something really cool at the end of the show. All right, let's go to

Marissa in Phoenix, Arizona, where it's the fall, but it's probably still 150 degrees. What's up, Marissa? Hey, Dr. John. How you doing? Good. How are you? I'm good. It is still really hot here, but like I wore a jean jacket last night and I like made myself sweat just to like feel like it was cooling down.

I don't know. You showed them. Way to go. I did. I did. I showed that thermostat. That's it. Way to go. I did. I did. I showed that thermostat. That's it. That's like a jean jacket is December, right?

I mean, that's like late February is, or early February is the depth of winter in Arizona is a jean jacket. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, you're probably right. That's not wrong. Jeez Louise. All right. All right.

So it's good to talk to you. What's up? How can I help? Yeah. So I have a dating question. Um, and I wrote down like three kind of bullet point question things. Um, so I thought maybe if it's okay, I could just read those and then you could ask whatever followup questions you think are relevant. Yes. And just remember, the last time I dated was like a quarter century ago. So I'll do my best. Is that cool? This is, yeah, yeah.

You know, I think that's a fair disclaimer. I am not, I wasn't good at it then. But hey, let's figure it out. We'll figure it out. Okay, go for it. Okay, so should I be concerned about dating someone in recovery related to alcohol? And what are some good boundaries that we can set up early on to protect both of our mental health? And then how can I be supportive of their journey?

Excellent. Very cool. Great question. So tell me about this person. So this person is pretty new in my life and maybe it'll work out. Maybe it won't. But my, the reason that I felt like it was relevant and not relevant, but like worthwhile asking maybe somebody that is a professional is, um, I think I've only dated alcoholics. Um, and I

feel like I've done a lot of work the last couple of years. I took some time off dating. I did a lot of work on myself. I'm really nice to myself now. I feel better than've done a lot of work the last couple of years. I took some time off dating. I did a lot of work on myself. I'm really nice to myself now. I feel better than I ever have. And I recently started dipping my toes in the dating pool again. And it was immediately the first... I was like, that's insane. I feel so much better.

And yet, out of the potpourri of humans, I picked the one that is an alcoholic. So if you look back in time, so you've done some work the last few years. And when you look back over your life, what has dating alcoholics brought you? Because it's definitely brought you tough stuff, but I'm, I'm specifically interested in what are the things that have brought you good? I have come to describe the people that I've dated as like their personalities sparkle a little bit differently. And, um, I think that's the most Pinterest on a pillow thing I've ever heard. That's incredible. People who struggle with addiction sparkle differently. That sounds

okay. So what does that mean? I think, you know, I haven't struggled with alcoholism or addiction in the traditional sense, but I think some of the like darkness that comes with, or I guess the darkness that leads up to choosing that as a coping mechanism. Um, I feel like I can relate to that or I, you know what I mean? Like they usually have a dark sense of humor. It's funny. Um, they tend to be, um, maybe not the life of the party, but maybe also not, not the life of the party. You know what I mean? Like they're very easy to be, maybe not the life of the party, but maybe also not the life of the party. You know what I mean? Like they're very easy to be around. Hold on.

They're not easy to be around. Their altered self is easy to be around. Yes. Does that make sense? And so often when you fall in love with somebody who's a chemical addict or struggling with addiction to chemicals, right? If drugs, alcohol, whatever, you fall in love with, there is a space between you and them and there's comfort in that space. And I know what I'm saying sounds woo-woo, but I'm super serious. You are in love with the safety of not having to fully integrate with somebody else,

so much so that you're willing to deal with the abuse, the not showing up, the lying, the financial infidelity, all the stuff, because I can be in love with somebody and be in a relationship with somebody and not actually have to be connected to that person, because there's something between us. You see what I mean? I definitely think that that resonates so did that come from your mom or your dad who where did the original hurt come from both and then the subsequent step parents I mean it was yeah so you have a body that understands relationships hurt. And you also have a part of your brain that knows without relationships, we die. And so you found a helpful middle ground.

I can be deeply in relationship with somebody. And then here's, I'm leading you somewhere. I can be deeply in relationship with somebody and not ever have to be all the way in because they can't be all the way in because they have wallpapered their lives with alcohol. Or they've wallpapered a space between me and them with, you know, weed or cocaine or whatever they're using to hide from the world. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. And so then your addiction becomes, and tell me again, tell me if I'm wrong, your addiction becomes taking care of,

you are going to prove that you're worth being loved by taking care of, picking up, saying it's okay, drawing boundaries, and then letting them push on them a little bit. Is that fair? Or tell me I'm off. 100% accurate. Okay. Like I've done this before. You are every bit an addict as they are. Yeah. I completely agree. PM Melody calls it love addiction. You're addicted to being in love, but your body can't take being in love. So you go towards somebody who's an addict so y'all can be in love together, but you're both in love

with fictionalized versions of yourselves. And then you try to solve it until it blows up, which it inevitably will. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah. And now you've done a bunch of work on yourself and you're ready to plug in then

way to go yeah okay so about six weeks to find this person through like dating apps and things like that and i was like oh this person's wonderful and then he was like yeah i'm like sober sober though you understand that right and i was, oh, okay. So I actually don't have any concern with the idea of somebody being in relationship, loving, marrying, falling in love with somebody in recovery. Not a little bit. I will say if somebody's using actively, then marriage counseling is a waste of your time because you're not dealing with that person. You're dealing with that, with the addiction, right? So if somebody's sober, man, that's the time. I wonder if your hesitancy is you haven't been with, you haven't been all in with somebody

who's actually looks you in the eye and means it. I agree with that. Like I am, like I was an only child. I am terrified of actual closeness with other people. Um, and I, like, I want to, I've, I've worked so hard to be nice to myself, and I want to protect that at all costs. I don't want to go blindly into this and think like, oh, but this time it's going to be different, and then it's not. But your relationship can never work if that's the way you enter into it. The challenge with relationship is, or the devil of relationships is you have to go all in. And when you go all in, that means you could get hurt again. But if you don't go all in, it never becomes what it could be. And so you've done all this work. You are the Olympic gymnast that was almost going to the Olympics,

and then you blew out your ACL and tore your Achilles tendon, and you spent two years in rehab, and now you are at the mats again, and they're telling you to go do your roundup flip-flop, whatever flip-flop, flippity-flop things that gymnasts do. And you're standing there

remembering not being able, getting carried off the mats because your legs had blown out. Yeah. You've done all this work and here you are. And the reality is

you could go do a roundup flip-flop and blow out the other knee. You could blow out the same knee. Or you can go in a gold medal. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I completely agree. So if you enter into this relationship and you go for it, you're going to have to let him know I am practicing being in relationship with somebody. And so I'm going to be awkward sometimes and I'm going to be weird and it's about me and it's not about you.

That is your, that is your entry point into this because you can, what I think is cool about this is he'll have the, he'll have the same language as you. You were addicted to alcohol. I was addicted to rescuing people. And so I'm sober too. I can't heal you.

I can't rescue you. I can't keep you sober. What I can be is the best girlfriend you've ever had in your life. Or that's not even true. Don't, I strike that from the record. I can be me. Which, I think

is going to be the best girlfriend ever. Okay? Here's what you're going to practice. Clearly stating what you need. Clearly stating your boundaries. Understanding when you start trying to take care of him or fix him or solve him, that that's not your job. Where is that line between, you know, if somebody asks you your opinion on something, right?

Because he is in lots of therapy and group sessions and all of those things. And so he's actively working on learning things. So when he asks me my opinion on stuff, where are some of those lines of this is me trying to fix you or tell you what you need to do for yourself versus... If you get invited in, it's an invitation okay when i see my wife walk through the kitchen and in a certain way and i think oh gosh she's in a bad mood and i start looking around the house to try to solve that bad mood what i have done is taken her autonomy away i've taken heronomy away i've taken her personality away

I've taken her strength away and I have made it my mission to fix her because she's clearly broken She's not operating efficiently right now That's where I get myself into trouble That's when I use the relationship. I use my wife to make me feel better about myself. The other side of it is when I see her walk through the kitchen, I can get up from my chair, put my phone down and walk over and get in front of her as she's walking through and say, hey, you okay? And I let her answer. She's like, no, no, no, no. I was just thinking about something else. Cool. I just saved myself and all of us a whole bunch of hassle because I was about to start trying to solve

something that wasn't even a problem. Or she can say, yeah, I'm really struggling with, I miss my granddad who passed away last year. I miss this. I've got to have a hard conversation with one of my coaching clients. She can speak into it. So if you are invited to give your opinion, give your opinion. That doesn't have anything to do with him. That has to do with you not thinking your opinion's got validity to it. Okay. And it does. It never has before because your opinions were a waste of time because you're trying to keep addicts alive. And you're not doing that anymore. Now your opinion's worth being your opinion. And he might not like your opinion and he, your opinion's worth being your opinion.

And he might not like your opinion, and he may say, I don't want to date because your opinions are stupid. And then you go, well, I'm freaking Marissa from Phoenix, so that's my opinion. Or then send me an article, and I'll read it, and then we'll have a discussion. See what I'm saying? Now we're talking about relationship, back and forth, give and take. I think this. Well, I think this. Now we're in an exchange. We're not in a prop me up so I can prop you up so I can prop me up so I can prop you up.

Okay. If you find yourself trying to solve problems without being invited in, that's when you know. Okay. Or when you see him hurting and you feel bad, that's an alarm. Okay? Because you're going to rush in and try to make him feel better. And that can never be your job.

Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah does you sound you sound scared um yeah i think uh i think i am nervous i feel like um i'm looking for for the glaring red flags and I can't find them. So I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop because nobody's perfect. So, yeah, I'm nervous. Hold on. Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? You really like this guy or you like the idea of this guy

and you know nobody's perfect and yet you're waiting for him to prove himself not perfect. So there's no reason to wait for other shoes to drop. They're already all scattered all over the floor, all over the house, all over the neighborhood. You're not perfect. He's not perfect. And so y'all can choose to be not perfectly perfect together.

Or you can choose not to be. But you have so much like physical fear about being intimately connected with somebody. I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about close with somebody that you go in with so much hedging. I'm waiting for this. I don't know about this. I'm worried about this. Well, it could be that. Just go and be willing to say, hey, I said something last night. I get take backs. I get take backs.

I'm a recovering addict. I get take backs. Or I'll be right over. And then as you're grabbing everything to run to his rescue, you stop and you text him and say, actually, I'm already in my sleeping clothes. Let's get together for lunch tomorrow. I've got some time for lunch tomorrow and then you're gonna feel that Maddening discomfort that you couldn't run to the rescue You're gonna feel it and you're gonna have to practice that feeling And he's gonna have to practice

Being uncomfortable being alone being scared being being exhausted, and not trained to alcohol. And not having somebody come run to save him. He's going to have to learn to stand up on his own two feet. And then y'all are going to be practicing these things together. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Are you seeing somebody still? Am I still seeing him, is that what you're asking? No, I know Am I still seeing him?

Is that what you're asking? No, I know you're still seeing him. Gross. I can hear it on you. Like, what about... Oh, God. What about you? What about a counselor? Are you still talking to somebody?

On and off, but I haven't in a couple of months. Okay, cool. So do you have a date planned? Yeah. He's pretty predictable and reliable and chasing, but not in a love-bombing way. And I feel like a dog chasing her tail that caught it. And I don't know what to do with it now. Do you not like him? I do like him. I just, I, you know, I was like, Oh,

I want somebody like this. Right. And then you have like a few, I've never had like a long list of, they have to have, I've never had that, but like, these are some of the qualities that I want in a human,

in a partner. And then like, they're like, Oh, here I am. And I'm like, Oh, what do I do with it now? Here's the, I'll say this word over and over.

I want you just to get this tattooed on your forearm. Okay. In the most basic way, get like one of those arrows over it or underneath it. Okay. Actually don't do this. I grew up in a home where money was scary. Like the times my dad had to go to the grocery store knowing we didn't have any money,

but he had three kids that had to eat. Okay, it was tough. And my car I bought for $1,000 and I drove it for six years and it was like a giant roller skate. It was so teeny. And it was going to break at any moment. And it just kept, it was a Toyota.

So it kept going and kept going. Money has always been, then I went and got myself in six figures worth of debt. Like money has always been a source of pain. And then my wife and I got radical. We paid off everything. I don't know anybody, anything anymore. And now I work at a job.

Dave Ramsey's my boss. He pays me, takes care of us really well. And I'm having to practice not being terrified every month when bills come in. I'm having to practice spending money. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because it's terrifying for me because my whole body says this all ends right now. And I don't think that's true. It could. It could all end tomorrow. No question about it. And as my friend Todd says, I don't have a meteorite plan. Like if that happens, if inflation goes to 500% and we're killing our neighbors for water, okay, I'll deal with that when that happens. That's not probably not going to happen though. And so I'm going to practice. I'm going to pay

for something. I'm going to feel uncomfortable about it. And I'm going to feel that random, weird guilt for no reason about it. And then I'm going to enjoy it. And so you are going to go on this date. You're going to look them in the eye and you're going to say, I'm a recovering addict too. So I'm practicing as well. So if I'm awkward or weird, it's about me. It's not about you. And you are all the things I put on my list, but I also have never done, like I've never been with this list before. And so we're going to be figuring this out as we go. And you're going to keep no secrets.

That way you can be as light as possible. You're not carrying a bunch of cinder blocks around with you. And then all of a sudden, this might work. Or it might not. But we're just practicing. Because you're in recovery too. And let me tell you this, Marissa. I'm so proud of the work that you've done. I'm so proud of the honesty you have

walking into this relationship. And I'm proud of the person you're going to become. He's lucky to have you. And if he chooses elsewhere or you choose elsewhere, great. But if y'all get married, I get to come to the wedding. Okay, cool? Deal. we'll be right back This show is sponsored by better help October is the season for wearing costumes. And if you haven't started planning your costume seriously get on it I'm, pretty sure i'm gonna go as brad pitt because we have the same upper body, but whatever look it's costume season

And if we're being honest, a lot of us hide our true selves behind masks and costumes more often than we want to. We do this at work. We do this in social settings. We do this around our own families. We even do this with ourselves. I have been there multiple times in my life and it's the worst. If you feel like you're stuck hiding your true self behind costumes and masks, I want you to consider talking with a therapist. Therapy is a place where you can learn to accept all the parts of yourself, where you can be honest with yourself, and where you can take off the mask and the costumes

and learn to live an honest, authentic life. Costumes and masks should be for Halloween parties, not for our emotions and our true selves. If you're considering therapy, I want you to call my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy. You can talk with your therapist anywhere so it's convenient for just about any schedule.

You just get online and you fill out a short survey and you'll be matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapist at any time for no additional cost. Take off the costumes and take off the masks with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Deloney. All right, we're back.

Let's go to Bailey in Salt Lake City, Utah. What's up, Bailey? Hey, how are you? I'm dancing on the ceiling, Lionel Richie style. What are you doing? Oh, I'm just hanging out. Hanging out. Vampire style. Lost Boys style. So what's up? So in the past year, I have gone through a season of some pretty heightened anxiety and a lot of feelings like that that I hadn't ever really experienced before. And now I feel like I'm kind of coming out on the other side of that and coming through some of those things.

And now I feel like I have anxiety about having anxiety. Like I'm scared to go back. Congratulations. You're official. What was the impetus behind the increased anxiety? What happened last year? Well, I was in my first year of law school. Bailey, lead with that.

I started law school. You can just put a period at the end of that. It's like, oh, you're going to be anxious and depressed. And why? Like, good grief. How was it? It was good. And I really enjoyed my, it was a great year.

I really enjoyed my experience. And I'm glad that I am through it for sure. But I think it definitely sparked just this heightened level of all those types of feelings that I had to deal with and I had never dealt with before. And now I'm like scared when I start to feel like that a little bit, I feel like I'm scared to kind of go back to that place that I was in. Oh, excellent. Okay. So do you know my background with law, with lawyers and law students? Um, just a little bit.

I was a Dean of students at a law school. Okay. And I spent five years. It was transformative for me as a non-JD person, someone who's not an attorney. I don't know that there's anybody else in the country that's got more respect for law students, law faculty members, and the attorney. I just think I love everything about it. And I also spent five years plus an additional three years studying lawyer mental health and whoa. Right? Yeah. You're like, yes, yes. So I'm going to rattle things off the top of my head here, okay? And I'm going to make a note real quick because, okay. So, here's what I noticed in my students and here's what the literature said. I'm just going to braid it all together, okay? Number one, the pressure of law school is no joke.

The top 15 of you will make this much more money than the rest of the others. The top 30 of you will get these jobs and the rest of you will be left to be involved in a type of hunger games for the rest of the jobs. This group will make 200,000. The rest of you will make 48,000 plus commission, right? It's no joke. And it's not like a, you know, I'm kind of thinking they're very clear about it. Right. Yeah. And then you've been the smartest person in your area, in your sphere for a long time,

or at least one of the smartest that you know. And then they dump you into law school into first year one L class. And you look around and you're like, Oh, everybody's a laser. Yeah. And even that dude over there, who's wearing like the pantera shirts and he's got a mohawk turns out he missed zero questions on the act right yeah i mean like you know what i mean and yeah he's smoking weed in the parking lot yet he's way smart like the whole it it blows up every paradigm you have right yeah and that's

unnerving. And so the identity you built on being the smart person, the safety you felt being the smart one is now, it's gone. And a lot of people experience this when they graduate college and they go to their first job. Like, oh yeah, I'm a hard worker.

And then you show up and you're like, everybody here is a hard worker. And if you make that sale, you take food off my plate. So you don't make that sale. That's my sale. Right. So you're like, I don't know. And then your body just starts sounding the alarms. Okay. The third one is you stay up, you work 20 hours a day. Is that fair? Yeah. Yes. It's studying, studying, studying, studying. And then the whole, uh, what I don't tell me what law school you are attending, but, um, is it Socratic? I

mean, do they, they say read the chapters. Okay. Awesome. Okay. So if you don't know what that, if you're just listening to this, here's how law school works. They say, read 500 pages between now and next class. And that doesn't mean just scan your eyeballs over it. That means you are going to chart out everything you read, all of the cases, why the attorneys did what they did, why the judge said what the judge said, why the plaintiffs and the defendants did what they did. You're going to go through all of that. And then you show up to class and your professor is at the front of the class. And he may say, Bailey, tell us about case whatever and Bailey stands up and for the next 45 minutes it's Bailey versus the professor why do you think that what happened right that is and in most law

classes it's completely random right yes yeah so you don't know if you're gonna get shot you just go to class and you're like I'm just going going to class, going to class. You on display hour go. And you're in front of all your classmates who you want to be impressed. You want to impress. You want to have, um, you want to line up, you know, you want to be the first. I want to be this. I want to be included on their journals. But that is a recipe for anxiety. If you're not anxious when that you're possibly sociopathic. Fair. Yes, that's probably true. There is one or two people that every day they're like, I hope to God that faculty member calls on

me because I'm going to burn him to the ground. And they get called on and they stand up and you can tell they like it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. There are those people. You're not that person. Most people are not that person, right? Those people go on to become uh law professors they're incredible right they love every second of this um and then here's the other extreme the research tells me that when you make partner whatever that looks like and i'm just assuming you're going to go to a firm okay instead of going to public service if you make partner the research tells me that you walk out and you get a massive bonus, a massive increase in your check. You also get a massive increase in the responsibility of the firm and the plaintiffs and the people's lives you're impacting. And there's this terrifying feeling that I gave up my 20s. I gave up most of my 30s. I gave up Little League games. I gave up Saturdays. I gave up hikes. I gave up fishing. And it wasn't worth it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Law school has an incredible way of making you a different type of thinker. That's its job, and I'm so grateful for it. And it has a very unique way of pulling you apart from your why. Why am I doing this? Why am I trying to get on this journal? Why do I want to be in the top 25%

of my class? Why do I want to work at this particular firm? And they continue to push you towards external metrics. Look at the cars you can have, at the homes you can have, at the money you can have. And if that's what you're about, that's what you're about, man. There's people who do it for years and years and years and years and years. I've just sat at a lot of the lawyers assistance programs meeting. I've met with them. I've researched them. I've presented at their conferences. Oh man. It's an exhausted, burned out, tired crew, right? Yeah. And I think that I, you know, there's a plan that they like put you on in law school that you're going to graduate and you're going to go to a big firm and you're going to make a lot of money. And I am kind of

not bought into that plan. And I am like in this season of being like, I want to build a good life for myself, not just a good job for myself. And so trying to balance that all at one time is challenging to say the least. And so then, and I'm also just at heart, like a planner, like I would have every detail of like, I want to do this or no, I want to do this or this is what I want to do or, but I can't control this aspect, but I want to control this aspect. And I feel like I am coming through some of those things and learning how to handle some of those things. But then when I start to feel like that again, I almost like panic. Like I'm like, oh God, like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go back to what I was doing before. All right. So the, the, the devil of anxiety is that once it, it passes that it creates a new anxiety about being anxious, right? You said

it perfectly the last time. Okay. So I want you to think of your first year of law school. Have you ever been water skiing? I have not actually. When you're in the water and the boat goes, they hammer the boat and they start pulling you out of the water. The first hundred yards or so, half of your body is underwater and half of you is above water. And you're just, it's like somebody spraying you in the face with a fire hose. Yeah. And then when you crest and get on top of the water, it turns into glass. So you just have to get through that initial, what is happening? And that's where a lot of people fall off. If you look at the number of people who just have hookups, the number, the people who start drinking too much, people who put on a lot of weight who quit exercising it's that first year it's trying to deal with that onslaught coming so on the other

side of this you're on the other side of it now you're just waiting to be submerged and sprayed in the face again that will come it will come make no mistake walking around clenched up waiting for it a won't make it hurt any less when it gets you, and B, it's just going to ruin the days that you're not getting sprayed in the face. Yeah. Does that make sense? So here's the simple word, awareness. When you start to tense up thinking about being anxious in the future,

smile, take a huge deep breath and hold it for three to five seconds, relax, breathe it out and consciously pull your shoulders down as far as they will go and say, it's going to come some point, not today. Then the next day, not today. And what you'll do over time is you will teach your amygdala, you will teach your brain that you are driving and it will know, okay, this is harrowing. This is scary. This is stressful, but she's in control. We don't have to go to fight or flight. Does that make sense? Yeah. We're slowly going to take care of our brain. And listen, I'm always like, okay, sure. When a 1L tells me I'm going to do this and then this, and when I'm

33, I'm going to do this. I always just like, oh man, I'm going to hand you my card and win this supernovas, which it will. Give me a call, right? Your obsession with planning is an anxiety response. It's fake control. It's pretend. And you think you've wrapped the world up in your fancy planner and your apps. You haven't. It just is a way to neutralize the anxiety. And so we're going to make a plan for today. We're going to make a plan for this semester and we're going to hold it loosely. We're going to follow that plan to a T until that plan turns left and we're going to go left. And then we're going to make a new plan. And it's going to be annoying. It's going to be frustrating, but it's not going to be anxiety inducing because we know it's coming. Is that fair? Yeah. That's what we're going to practice. Okay. I'm going to give you two other

things that I want you to do as a law student. Okay. Okay. Make friends regularly see them, even at the expense of studying sometimes, and especially people that are not law students themselves. Okay. Okay? Law students and lawyers, their weapon of choice is human interaction. And when you're a boxer or an MMA fighter, you go to work,

you go to the gym to practice fighting, and you put on gloves, and you put on a mouthpiece, and you punch other people. And then you take your gloves off and your mouthpiece off and you go to the grocery store and you can't punch people at the grocery store because you're not at work anymore. Attorneys do not have, they don't take their gloves off. They don't take their mouthpieces out. They just go to the grocery store. And you know, you are learning skills because this is your job to defend the people who have no voice,

you know how to eviscerate somebody, how to take somebody apart. And because that's – have you already been accused at the kitchen table or Thanksgiving dinner? They're like, all right, all right, that's enough. Yeah, my mom tells me I'm luring her sometimes. Yeah, you, all right, all right. That's enough. Yeah. My mom tells me I'm worrying. Yeah. You know why? Cause you are, you're like a kid that just got a nerf gun and you're shooting everybody with it. It's fun, but only for you. And here's what happens. Your circle gets smaller and smaller because people don't want to hang out

with you as much anymore. Cause all you talk about is this and this and can you believe this? And have you read the whole thing on your Apple iPhone, the whole like section, you iPhone, the whole section? You know what they actually take? You're that person. And then you only end up hanging out with other attorneys. And everyone's exhausted and everyone's trying to one-up the other one.

And so then you start meeting at bars. And then now we're down the road. See what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that group of friends, I have a good group of friends at school, but that breeds just a lot of the anxiety and stuff too. Like, it's great to talk to other people about the experience, but I also like fully believe that law school is a very individual experience for every person. And so sometimes hearing about everybody else's is just like, oh God. Yeah. And if you're like, well, I didn't think that class was that hard. Then they look at you like, oh, you're one of them. And if you say, oh, that class was so hard. They're like, I've got her nailed to the wall. Right. Yeah. You have to have community in law school, period. Attorneys have to have community at their firm and their local bar associations. You got to have friends that are not in that world, that are just talking about their pets and lawn care and things like that.

You've got to have other people. And finally, I recommend to every single attorney, law school, law student, every single attorney in training, start talking to somebody now, whether it's a coach, whether it's a counselor, somebody who is going to consciously and with some regularity challenge you. Are you still connected to why you're doing this in the first place? Where are you on your why? Where are you on your purpose? Why are you going through all of this hell that is law school? Because if it's for $125,000 a year, it's not worth it. If it's to become credentialed so that you can help anybody and you can take on the big guy, you can help the little guy, you can make the world a better place, then law school three years is nothing because you'd walk through fire to help people

in your community. And that's why I just think I have such high respect for law students and law faculty members and attorneys because of what they are able to do for the least of these in our communities. And yes, there's morons. There's morons in every industry. Good grief. You should be a part of the podcasting industry. There's morons in my house. I'm one of them. So like there's morons everywhere, but I'm just so impressed. I don't, I got a couple of dog PhDs. I don't think I could have done law school. I couldn't have gone to war like that every day. And so I'm so in awe of you who do it. Like Bailey, I want you to always remember who you're going to be at the other end of law school, as you enter the legal profession, as you fight for a living for other people. Where can you take those gloves off,

take your mouthpiece off and say, whew, I'm Bailey. Let's go get something to eat. Talk about dogs or pets or whatever it is. We'll be right back what is up we're back and if you ever wonder what it looks like to lose control of your professional life i'm wearing a uh dracula cape i feel like justin bie Bieber with his collar popped this high And everyone in the booth Is This looks Some of y'all look scary man Like I look over and it just looks terrifying

This is a Halloween episode Halloween episode Is this coming out on Halloween? Yes this comes out on Monday October 31st If you had just gone That would have been incredible. So it is Halloween today.

So happy Halloween, everybody. So we want to take a minute and talk about the psychology of horror movies, scary movies, being scared, because there's some actual real data around it, some actual real psychology around it. And just so happened, we've been planning this for several weeks, and it just so happened that one of my favorite

writers and podcasters, his name's Dr. Peter Attia, A-T-T-I-A. He has the Drive podcast, phenomenal. It's a very, very, very deep dive into how physiology works and longevity, but it's good, especially if you're a nerd. But he wrote an article this weekend, him and Catherine Birkenbach wrote an article called The Paradox of Horror. And so I'm gonna go through some of the stuff that they pull up here and then talk about a few other ideas

about what's in the literature and the scientific literature on why we love scaring ourselves. Real quick, Ben, Jenna, everybody, what's your favorite scary movie of all time? I have to say probably Halloween, the original, but I'm a huge fan of the new movie Black Phone. I've got to see that.

I've seen it three times and it's just amazing. All right, I'll see it. All right, I'll check it out. You've been telling me to watch that. Okay, Ben, what do you think? I got to say Paranormal Activity. Dude. Like the OG, the first one.

That's on the very tip top of my list. Yeah. Jenna? Can I just say Nightmare Before Christmas? Because I don't like to be scared. Well, it's a cartoon, but if that scares you, then teach her. No, it doesn't scare me. That's why I like it.

Or, you know, Edward Scissorhands. That one's pretty good, too. Again, more of a love story, but it's cool. I don't like to be. I don't like the jump scares. If it's going to make me pee my pants, I don't want to watch it that's fair so that's fair okay so i think mine mine is my wife tells me that like back in the day when i used to be a rebel rouser my jaw would get a particular way before i got in a fight and then i would start laughing i would start cracking up and the first time i saw Paranormal Activity,

the original one, I went home and I was laying in my bed laughing. Like I thought it was on. I could not shake that movie. That was terrifying. Blair Witch Project, when it first came out, there was all that hype around it. That was intense.

It just kept ratcheting up. And then I have to admit, the first Scream, Scream 1, if you don't know Scream 1 Drew Barrymore was the front of was the cast

by spoiler alert just hit the fast forward button if you don't want to hear it but Drew Barrymore was the big star at the time huge like famous star

had a bunch of big movies out and she was the first person on the poster right and then she's killed off in the first five or six minutes of the movie and i remember just being in the theater looking at my buddy being like what do you do what happens now i don't know what happens now and then the

whole movie was just an unwinding of they kept thinking like you they kept leaning towards this is who the person is this who the person is and it never what dude it was awesome and then the ending i didn't see coming it was phenomenal movie i just remember leaving it going it was terrifying silence of the lambs all those movies are terrifying all right so here's the question that's posed um by dr atia and dr birkenbach are there any other species on earth that deliberately scare ourselves do squirrels cross the road and sit in the middle to see how long they can wait? I always wonder that. Or do deer run up to wolves and like scare them and then try to sprint away to see if they can make it? Probably not. So why do we do this? Is it just for adrenaline? Do we do this just to amp ourselves up? Well, it turns out that possibly

it could be to improve our mental health. That sounds weird. Here's what the researchers say. This is from a meta-analysis, Colton Scribner and Kara Christensen. Note that individuals with high anxiety report greater enjoyment of horror than their less anxious peers, suggesting that engagement with horror media results in outcomes, namely reduction in anxiety symptoms that tend to reinforce this engagement in anxious individuals. Sounds weird. If I go scare myself, it can make me a little less anxious. So we know that the only way through anxiety to heal it is to go right through the middle of it. The more you run from it, the more it reinforces itself. So there's something about turning and staring it down. And here's what the authors suggest. It fully captures our attention. Watching a scary movie,

you get engrossed in somebody else's life. And again, one of the devils of anxiety is it makes it about you. You're about to die. You're about to get rejected. You're about to get laughed at. And when you watch a scary movie, you're saying to yourself, they're about to get hatchet murdered or they're about to get disemboweled on some cruise ship or whatever movie you're watching. I don't know. Or if you're Jenna,

like Rapunzel's about to let her hair down out of the tower. I don't know what horror movie you watch, but like you're thinking about somebody else, right? It fully engrosses you and takes you out of yourself into somebody else's story. Pretty cool. Humans are hardwired to bias their attention towards imminent threats. It's super helpful if you're anxious when you see somebody else's threats, right? Another one, it gives us a sense of control over our anxiety.

We have very limited ability to change or remove most of our day-to-day sources of anxiety, inflation, job security, the next possible COVID variant, all that. But murderous clowns on the TV, all I got to do is turn the lights on. All I got to do, Kelly loves clowns. All I got to do is turn the film off.

I'm in control of this. And the worst thing that happens here is that person gets murdered, not me, right? So there's this pseudo control. It provides, and this is the one that resonated with me. It provides a safe means of facing threats and practicing resilience, okay? Practice. I say that all the time. It teaches me how to practice. It teaches me how to, oh gosh, who's going to die? Who's going to die? And then that tension is released. The endorphins are released and I'm still alive. So in a weird way, my body is practicing being terrified, being under threat and surviving that threat. And then it creates a physiology and a psychology for

living after the threat they go they write some researchers have noted this phenomenon may reflect the human desire to learn about relevant threats and to understand how dangerous the situation might look which and which reactions yield the best income i mean outcomes it's like our brains are practicing what happens if there's an actual outbreak or our brains are practicing what do we do if somebody walks in our house in slow motion with a hatchet and they start chopping everybody up um or if you're jenna and it's a really scary cartoon tom and jerry just get right whatever's going on so um unlike their real world counterparts horror films have a definite end point we can typically expect that they'll conclude with the satisfying resolution of the problem. The threat is neutralized and the good guys prevail. So it's

a way for us to enter into terrifying situations and be a part of them, but not all the way, not all the way. Um, it can also promote social bonding. Here's a couple of other ideas. Dolph Zillman created a theory called excitation transfer theory. This suggests that people love watching scary things because their body rolls into fight or flight, and then it's excised, and then your body fills up with endorphins. You get high, right? So it's like runner's high a little bit. You get, it's feelings of relief, feelings of laughter, feelings of like, like it's relief.

And so people watch scary movies. They endure the gross stuff to get high on the back end. The other one is a, like I said, it's a way to experience fear terror um scary things and see them resolved right see them end and then the final one is curiosity curiosity i hadn't thought of that before but some people hear about um weird this and that's they wonder like i don't know i've never seen somebody get murdered this

is a way to get the pictures in your mind without actually having to experience it because if you experience it you may not make it out and so those are some of the ideas here's what i've found in my life um i was obsessed big shocker with scary movies it used to be when i was um high school and college i saw every single one all of them, 100% of them. I never missed, never, never missed. I had a buddy, man. We went to all of them. We got every one of those weird B movies we could find. We believe that's just me. It's N equals one experiment. The more I filled my head with that stuff, the more I begin seeing threats everywhere, or more importantly, experiencing, feeling threatening things. Somebody would walk into a restaurant and I had a picture in my head of the guy that walks in the restaurant and just, you know, pulls out a blowtorch and melts everybody. I had that picture in my head and it was an unreasonable picture because we're at

Burger king at 11 a.m on a wednesday, right? It's not gonna happen But I had that picture in my head. It's kind of like our overconsumption of media right now We think there are shooters everywhere and there's not there's not but because our media like our news feeds Cannot put out a news feed without somebody without some murder happening if you look at it sometimes it'll say so-and-so shot and killed by so-and-so and it says Milwaukee Wisconsin and I live in Florida right they're gonna find somewhere in the country to put some fear in front of you because that fear it's engrossing right um and so I found that as I walked away from it I just had more peace in my

life. That's just my experience. And here's the other thing. When I started working with the police department, my dad worked in homicide. And I remember as a little kid, he had a throwaway comment. He said, I can't believe you'd watch this stuff for entertainment. And I remember being like, oh, you're such an old man dude what a boring old man when i started going into people's homes at 2 a.m and there was actual blood and actual guts and actual screaming and actual weeping dude horror movies became not fun at all like i haven't watched one in years because i started seeing this stuff for real. And I started sitting with people for real. And so in my life, I don't need it.

I miss the old scary movies. I am going to watch Black Phone just because Kelly said it's such a great movie. But once I started getting involved in the messy lives of my neighbors and community members and family members, friends. Man, I didn't need any more. I didn't need any more scary. I didn't need more horror anymore, whatever. No judgment on anybody who does man. Cause I, dude, I've been there. I love them, love them, love them. Um, but once I started actively putting both feet into my community, I got plenty of, plenty of, uh, scary moments and hard moments, intense moments, right? And the world's a tense and scary place right now. So let's follow Jenna's, yeah.

Let's just watch some happy stuff. All right, we'll be right back. Hey, what's up? Deloney here. Listen, you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point. In my new book, Building a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can

make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com All right, we are back and thank you for joining us today, I hope you have a safe and fun halloween I can't wait till halloween because i'm gonna get off the rails and eat my body weight and gummy candy. And so I hope you I hope you have Have taken care of yourself up until this moment so you can get off the rails too. Today's song of the day comes from my favorite Halloween movie ever, ever, ever. I saw this on a date with my good friend Melissa back when I was a freshman in high school. And I love the movie, The Nightmare Before Christmas.

I love it, love it, love it, love it. And so the song, one of the greatest soundtracks of all time by Danny Elfman. The song is called This Is Halloween. And the lyrics go like this. Boys and girls of every age, wouldn't you like to see something strange? Come with us and you will see this,

our town of Halloween. This is Halloween. Pumpkins scream in the dead of night. This is Halloween. Everyone makes this, everybody make a scene. Trick or treat till our neighbor's gonna die of night. This is Halloween. Everyone makes this, everybody make a scene. Trick or treat till our neighbor's gonna die of fright.

It's our town. Everybody scream in this town of Halloween. Hey, I love y'all. Be safe. I'll see you soon.