The Dr. Josh Axe Show - How Men Can Become Great Fathers, Husbands, and Leaders | with Curt Storring

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

What does it take to be the man and father your family needs?  Curt Storring joins Dr. Josh Axe to share hard-won wisdom cultivated from his own journey of fatherhood. Curt provides a rare glimpse into the mind and heart of a man determined to break generational cycles and lead his family well. In this authentic conversation, you'll discover Curt's unconventional and refreshing take on purpose, connection, and empowering the next generation. Tune in as Curt shares practical wisdom, including: The key traits of an ideal husband & father and how to cultivate them  How to shape kids' values while giving them room to grow How fathers shape our image of God Breaking negative cycles for dads without father figures The importance of mentorship and community among fathers This inspiring conversation will equip you to embrace your calling, strengthen your relationships, and become the man your family needs. Get ready to be challenged and uplifted. Join Dr. Axe and Curt Storring for real talk on being an man who is hard to kill, easy to love, and equipped to lead. Check out Curt Storring's Podcast: The Dad.Work Podcast Curt Storring's Group Coaching Program: ​​The Dad.Work Brotherhood  Want more of The Growth Lab with Dr. Josh Axe? Subscribe to the YouTube channel. Follow Dr. Josh Axe Instagram Twitter Facebook Tik-Tok Follow Curt Storring Instagram Twitter Facebook Follow Leaders Instagram Twitter Facebook Email Newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Everything falls into place. What kind of fitness do I have to be, to be alive that long, to have a health span, not just a lifespan, that allows me to enjoy that. What kind of relationship with my wife do I need? What kind of relationship to my work do I need? If everything is pointed towards the same goal, it becomes very easy to integrate everything. And if I cannot do the most important things, the things that I say are priorities while I am seeking my goal, then I'm seeking the wrong goal. And what I mean by that is if it is important for me to teach you. my boys how to become good men and fathers if I am spending too much time working that I don't

have the time to train them properly well then my life is out of alignment and I need to change. That might mean lack of efficiency for a season and that has to be okay and so I think if you as a man can outline what you want out of life in the most fundamental sense and I have my clients write their own eulogy from their children's point of view assuming all went well who would you be to your kids at the end of your life? Now go be that man. Hey everybody, Dr. Josh Axe here. Welcome to the Growth Lab podcast where each and every week we talk about how to grow yourself, your health, your wealth, and take your career and even your spiritual life to the next level. Today we have Kurt Storing with us. He is a husband, a father of four, an entrepreneur,

and he is also a coach and founder of dad work, notes that's pronounced, dad work where he helps dads become family leaders. And also, this is something that I'm really excited to talk to him about today because, you know, there are a lot of, when you look at rates like fatherlessness out there today, it's very, very high. When we look at the way that a lot of men are showing up, they're not showing up like they should. And what he really is an expert in is building intimate marriages and raising great kids and really leaving a legacy that matters. And so this is something I'm really excited to talk to him about today. So we're going to talk about fitness and faith and family and finances and all kind of things here today.

But I want to say, hey, Kurt, welcome the show. Thank you very much. I'm super excited to be here and hopefully we can give some value to everyone listening. Yeah, so I was telling you right before we jumped on here that I had a friend, share a post of yours with me. And it was something, I may not be saying this, right? You can talk about this. But basically, it was the elements of what makes a great dad. like what should a dad and a husband be?

And we'll talk about this part later, but I think one of the things was you put down and I just loved it was dads need to be hard to kill, you know, and I thought, wow, that's a good one. And so that was one of the first things that stuck out to me. But I want to talk about so many things today, as we mentioned. I want to talk about marriage and being a dad and just being a leader, right, and how to do that.

And by the way, I think this is a really relevant conversation, both for men, but also for women to hear. here because there are certain things that you should expect of your man if you're in a relationship in that way. And so first thing, you know, I've heard you talk about this, is this focus on having a better marriage. What are some of your practical tips when you think, well, actually, first, let me, let me ask you this.

When you think about what a husband and a dad should be, would you kind of paint a picture for me, what a great husband and dad should be? Yeah. And you know what? The reason that I feel as though I can speak confidently on this is because I was the flip opposite for the first number of years of my marriage and my fatherhood journey. And so this is stuff that has saved my marriage, in many ways, saved my life, I feel like, because I was just so bad at it. But the thing that I tell guys now is I think the perfectly balanced man, husband, and father is kind of what you're talking about before, which is hard to kill. but equally easy to love and all of that put together

allows him to be equipped to lead and so that's where I try and focus on guys is look we have to be able to defend we have to be able to charge forward we have to be able to take risks and lead the way and have a vision for our family and actually be the first line of both offense and defense so that our family can be protected behind us

but at the same time you have to be gentle at home You have to be patient at home. You have to be mirthful and joyful and have all of those things that allow you to be someone who's easy to be around and loves his family. Because if you're just the hard guy all the time, very hard to connect for your wife and kids. They're not like that. And they're not easily able to come alongside you in that hard to kill mentality. But on the same wavelength, if you're only easy to love and you're not sort of hard to kill, they're going to see you as not that protector, as not that role model.

and I think you need to have both of them in equal measure and then finally down at the bottom where I said equipped to lead that's just understanding that as a family leader as a husband as a father the buck stops with us 100% of the time we have to take full responsibility of everything that is coming across our family's plate everything that is happening in the home and that means we need all the skills to do the relational work

inside of a family we also need to know how to craft a vision and then inspire our people to follow that vision for their sake, not just for our glory. So I think that's maybe the most concise way of saying hard to kill, easy to love, and equipped to lead. And that all leads to father, husband, and man in equal measure. Yeah, I love this. You know, one of the things that I've learned over the years from just incredible mentors is that, you know, is what leadership is. And leadership is really this beautiful combination of love and nurture and encouragement and kindness, those traits. But it's also this other part of, I'm challenging you. Hey, get, you know, get up and rub some dirt on it.

It's, hey, I need you to give me more. It's that coaching mentality, you know, if you watch college football, Nick Saban, those sort of like fatherly, like, you got more in you, you know, sort of thing. And so, and then the first thing I see this hard to kill is like, it's this resilience. And it's hard to kill physically. I think there's this physical aspect, but it's also this, listen, life is hard. There's a lot of suffering. And you need to bear your suffering nobly. And I think when we go through that, especially as husbands and fathers and men, someone sees you bearing your suffering and you're going through hardships and you're resilient through it. It inspires others. It causes others.

And even our family, you know, I had a health issue, health crisis about a year ago that lasted a long time. And one of the things I thought about, Kurt, as I was going through this, I had a disc infection, couldn't walk for a while. And one thing I thought about is, is I was just in major pain and suffering. I thought about, I'm going to bear this nobly for my daughter. I want her to learn that even though, you know, things don't go our way and we have pain and suffering, that I can still love people. I'm not going to complain. I'm going to focus on benefiting the lives of others no matter what.

So anyways, these three points to me are so wonderful and so holistic that I think they encompass a lot, especially if you break down to get into sort of the philosophical ideas of how important they actually are. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think what you just said about the hard to kill being physical, yes, I'm a strong proponent that the dad bod is not the dad we want to have, is not the bod we want to have as fathers. But like you said, the resilience piece and the ability to suffer with meaning is so important. And I think that what we're showing here is like, man, I work with a lot of dads. I've seen a lot of dads. I go very deep with a lot of dads.

And there's something about fatherhood that is, well, it's noble. It's noble suffering for a purpose. And there is a burden that all dads that I've ever talked to have. And they're like, man, I'm overwhelmed. Like, I've got my stuff. I got my wife stuff. I got my kid stuff. And through how we bear that weight with grace, with the noble attitude that you had,

we teach so much to our children, to those around us. And we allow ourselves to be easy to follow, even if, Like you're physically unwell. That doesn't mean you need to be jacked and you got to have a six-pack and you've got to be all this kind of stuff. Take care of the basics, obviously. But if you are unable to even walk, it doesn't mean you're not hard to kill anymore. But like you said, there's literally endless possibilities to go into because, I mean, easy to love means you have communication skills.

You don't start fights every time you open your mouth. But it also means that you can empathize and validate with your wife and kids when they're having feelings. And like there's endless possibilities. And so, I mean, I'm happy to take this anywhere you want. want to go or just continue to riff. But yeah. Well, I think there's this idea here too. And I see this a lot. It's like, meant we're called to be courageous. We're called to stand up for what's, what's right and hold our crowd. I saw this post recently and it said, you know, men back in, my grandfather was like this. He served in World War II. It's like, hey, if he was 15, he would

have tried to enlist or if he had a medical issue, he would have tried to enlist because he wanted to serve his country. And today you've got people that would just run from that fact. And it's sort of this level of character. And so one question I have for you, well, let me ask you two questions. One, should dads or men be able to, should biological men be able to compete in women's sports? No, that's a strong no. Yeah, it's a strong no, exactly. So we're on the same page there. Yeah. So with it, but what, what's happened to men today? You know, I also see this thing like toxic masculinity, like somehow being a man is this negative thing and people should,

be guilty for it, but that's maybe a little bit, it's part of this discussion of what's happened to masculinity today. Man, okay. So this is one of those things that I think entire seasons of podcasts could, and probably are dedicated to. And one of the things I saw on, I was at the gym and on a treadmill and I saw this thing come up and I don't watch the news, but I saw this guy on Sportsnet or whatever it was. And he was saying that Hockey Canada, which is the governing body of hockey up here, is

having a meeting specifically to remove quote unquote toxic masculinity from hockey. And I'm going like, wow, this is going extremely deep because sport and competition are what I think inherently masculine. And particularly with sport, I think a lot of people have said this, sport is almost like a version of war for men in peacetime. Now, I think there's more to that because not everyone can be a professional athlete. But in terms of masculinity itself, there are so many things. going wrong and you can take this from at least for me personally on a face side of things I see like look there is evil in the world and this is sort of meant to be this way because masculinity stands up for what is right even if it's not expedient even if it's not comfortable and so how do you get past

truth and how do you spread evil well you take out the watchers you take out the men who would otherwise be courageously defending what is good and true and beautiful well then you start to vilify that exact thing that stops evil from spreading. So that's number one. And I think that has to be foundational just on a faith purpose for me. But I think you see as well, when I look at a man who comes to work with us, I'm like, dude, you just don't know how to be a man. And why not? Well, because you didn't have any strong role models around you. And I think there's something over the last number of generations. And look, there's a ton of amazing elders and sages and gentlemen out there who, who are so blessed to have,

but compared to the number of total elderly men out there, I think there are very few who are willing to stand up and be a leader and to guide younger men. And this is typically what we see with men who come to us without strong fathers. So many dads, many of them weren't even there through divorce or whatever, but a lot of dads were there physically, just not emotionally, spiritually, mentally.

And so we get a group of men who come up, and let's just talk about our generation. and they've grown up in this world where they've never been taught to be a man. And of course they're going to struggle. Of course they're going to seek comfort because they're going to likely be numbing the pain of not having had a father who affirmed them. And I think that is at the core. Most men can identify this father-sized hole in their heart. And for me, that is what we do a lot of work on.

Where is that hole in your life? Did your dad not affirm you? Did he abandon you by, you know, leaving your mother? Whatever that case is, maybe he physically abused you. There is something usually in a man's life that caused him to be distanced from or not taught by a father. And when that happens, he will spend the rest of his life trying to fill that father-sized hole with things that are not good for him. Things like addiction, things like overwork, things like money, things like women, whatever that is. But none of them quite fit that father-sized hole that was left.

So where does he go? comfort, numbing, trying not to think about it because not only did he lose what it meant to be a man, he lost the emotional digestive tract, I call it, from seeing how a man goes through hardship. Because if his dad wasn't present in their forum, and if there are no other role models in society, because look, there's just, it wasn't the case over the last couple generations, then how is he going to know? And so I think it's very important here to just tell guys, like, look, it's not your fault that you don't know how to be a man. It's not your fault that whatever happened to you in the past happened, but it's your responsibility to deal with it. Nobody's going to come save you.

And so you have to realize as a father especially, if you don't become a role model, if you don't become that man worth following, you're going to allow your sons, your daughters, to have the same pain and fate that you have now. And the pain that I was in, man, I did not want my kids to experience that. So I went all in on how do I even do this? What is a good man? What are these skills? So, I mean, again, there's myriad reasons why we are the way we are now in terms of masculinity. And I think we've just got to this point where people are so interested in individuality and comfort that they can no longer worry about sacrifice and courage and goodness. Yeah, you know, there's this idea, too, going out there.

I remember years ago and even today this idea of self-love, self-love, self-love, and it's this idea of like, you're perfect the way you are. No, you're not. You're not perfect. That's right. You should be getting better. I'm not perfect. I should be getting better and better and better. Like I have so much room to grow. So if I have room to grow, I'm not perfect. And so we have this idea of, and you know, when I've studied over the year in my health space, a lot of Chinese medicine.

And there they have, they put things a lot into you have feminine qualities and in terms of character like virtues and more masculine virtues. And so they would consider something like courage or self-discipline or self-control or self-control. more masculine, they consider love and kindness and generosity more feminine. And you really want to have a blend of both. But we've kind of vilified some of them or we've focused on one at expense of the other. For example, truth and love. It's like it's all about love. Well, most people's definition of love is completely off. It's a sort of erotic love versus self-sacrifice. But you need a blend of truth and love. If you're just all kindness and no truth, you know, you're just, maybe you're just lying to somebody or you're not challenging them to get better. So,

I do think that's important. You know, one of the thing you said that's, by the way, this is so big. And I actually didn't expect you to say that. But I'm glad you did. And I think you hit the nail on the head. It's this idea of fatherlessness, not having those mentors, not having those people in your life. Like we all learn through this kinesthetic through modeling, even like I have a three-year-old now. And like everything I do, my wife and I do, she's modeling and she's mimicking.

And it's kind of, you know, residing in her mindset that she'll grow up with. And I had a dad growing up. Dude, I'm so grateful for it. Like my dad served in Vietnam. He was in the military for years. And then he worked out on telephone polls in Ohio and the cold winters, worked for 40 years at one company, his whole, pretty much his whole career. And he never, I had probably a thousand games in my life from soccer to basketball to track. I never, I don't think my dad ever missed one single game ever.

I don't think he ever missed a game. My dad was the sort of dad where he started doing this thing where he said, Josh, you're not allowed coming in the house until you do a set of pull-ups and push-ups. So like, and I'm serious, he put a pull-up bar. He went, you know, did himself, put it in there. And every day of my whole life when I was in through, you know, seven years old through high school, I did a set of pull-ups and push-ups every day before I walked in the door from school or any time. So he really had this sort of great thing, like challenging me to be better constantly.

And, you know, I even think about this. I think that I had a better view of who God is because of my dad. I think some people have a warped view of God because they're like, well, you know, my dad wasn't there. And so subconsciously, I don't think people are aware of this. But, well, my dad didn't show up so God's not showing up. I think it actually extends to even somebody's faith in their spiritual life in terms of who their father is.

And so I don't have you have any thoughts on that, but that's something I think that we're seeing society right now as well. This is maybe the most important point. I think of all of societal issues right now. And I think that I was sort of skirting around it by saying, you know, we're missing fathers, but I think we're really just missing God. I believe that good fathers point their children to God. And I also believe that bad fathers point their children to God just down a much more painful

path. What I mean by that is you have the experience that you saw a father's love. And your father was a closer representative to God the father's love than, say, a bad father would have been. and so you wanted more of that, presumably. In my case, and a lot of other men's cases that I work with, we're left with this father-sized hole. And look, my dad wasn't a really good man. He was funny.

He was with us physically a lot. Just was really hurt. And, you know, he passed away, I think, nine years ago now. And so I've had a lot of time to ruminate on this. And think about what did he mean to me and what are the wounds that he left me. But for me, I rejected God for ages. And it was only through his way. will that I found or he found me a year and a half ago. But the hole in my heart that my father left

that I wanted him not to have left my mother. I wanted him to come back home. I wanted him not to have abandoned me. That whole, I was seeking my whole life to fill. Well, what finally filled it? God the father. So your father led you to God through wonderful examples and mine led me to God through what he couldn't be. And I think that's so beautiful and perfect and just speaks to God's of being balanced like we're talking about with love and wrath, with justice and mercy. Like there's this balance, this perfect balance of God. And I think that's why, like, hard to kill, easy to love so much, because it's a balance. And through that, through missing God, of course, we're not going to be seeking the good things.

We're missing God. And so what I think as well is happening is that the enemy is using distraction, man. Like phones and the next fix and everything ordered to your door within five minutes. when you are distracted like that and when you're literally, I mean like physically looking downward, you're not looking up and seeing the sky. You're not in awe of nature. And if you're so busy looking for the next hit,

you're never going to stop and think, why am I even here? What is the point of this? And so I think that, the spiritual point of this, is so related to fatherhood. And I would rather help my kids find God by being a reasonably good template

of what the father is than make them go through the path that I went through, which only by the grace of God did I get through that because I was at the door of, you know, suicide, to be quite honest. Wow. You know, there's a quote by A.W. Tozer and he says, what you believe about God is the most important thing about you. It's really interesting because our identity is often tied to what we believe about God, like our own identity. If you believe, hey, if we believe we're children of God and we live for attorney, like that's such a big identity builder and foundation in a similar thing even with your parents.

You know, I think about there's this scene. I remember my dad, I don't know why this is one of the most vivid, vivid memories I had. My sister and mom were sick, okay? They had the flu. They were upstairs in our house and I grew up in Dayton, Ohio. And my dad and I didn't get too sick, but this was on Christmas Day. And we sat downstairs just my dad and I all day and we watched all three Star Wars films.

And I was probably like, I don't know. know, maybe 11, 12 years old at the time. I remember being such a great memory. But there's a scene there in Star Wars, right, where, where Darth Vader cuts off Luke's hand and he loses his hand. But right before that, he says, I am your father. And I remember being so stunned at the time, like, oh, my gosh, like this evil person, like Darth Vader is Luke's father.

And Luke just screams out like, no. And I thought about this. One time I thought about, well, why is that such a big deal to him that, that's his father. Like, why is that such a big deal? Well, I thought Luke's probably having stuff in his head like, if my father's that evil and that bad, what does that say about me, right? Versus somebody could think something a little different like, well, I have a father in heaven who's perfect. I'm made in his image. What does that mean about me? Right. So oftentimes our identity kind of stems from people in our lives, our mom, our dad, especially, if you're a man or

or even God. And so anyways, all these things are incredibly important to our own identity. And another point I want to have, and this is something that I'm so grateful you pointed out, is that if you didn't have a great father, that doesn't mean you can't be a great father, right? It means you can learn from those mistakes, and you have just as great of an opportunity now, if you can operate out of self-awareness, to be a great father. And it's one of the greatest callings ever. It's like, if you just show up as a dad in these three ways that you're talking about, I mean, you're fulfilling such a great purpose in life. it's just, it's incredibly impactful.

Yeah. And that's, I mean, if you came from a family that was broken, that should be all the motivation you need to make sure your family is not. It's not an excuse, it's motivation. And that's sort of what I can know, sort of led me here, I guess, is that it hurt, man. I don't want my kids to go through that. And I was willing to take on all the burden of my generational curses, if you will, and do that work to exercise those demons or whatever, get better so that my kids didn't

to carry my weight because I know that they'll have some weight too. Yeah, so tell me about this. And just to give you another example of this, when I, when my mom was diagnosed with cancer when I was in eighth grade and I remember like, and she went through chemotherapy. She had a mastectomy. I mean, it was such an emotionally traumatic experience. But I remember my mom going through that and thinking there's got to be a better way. People weren't meant to have, and I want to help people that are in this situation. So I took this, like this negative cancer, our family being incredibly unhealthy from a diet standpoint. I was able to take then and say, no, I want to turn the complete other direction.

I want to help save lives, transform alive. I'm going to learn about nutrition and health and fitness and all those things. And so we can take evil when we specifically partner with God and use it for good as well. You know, one of the things I think that maybe a lot of dads have a hard time with today is this sort of balance, right? There's like there's a lot on a parent's plate or a man's plate. It could be one, taking care of yourself, but also taking care of your family, like, you know, and the things we've talked about. But your finances, your own fitness, your faith, there's a lot of stuff. What advice do you have for men and dads to create this sort of work life flourishing?

Yeah. So this is something a lot of people talk about work life balance. They want everything to be perfectly balanced. And like I just said, I love that word, but a word that I like better is integration. And I've only learned this recently. It's part of a mastermind I've joined through family teams, which is a wonderful organization. And it's this idea that everything you do should be pointing towards your ultimate vision or goal or purpose. And I think what we see a lot of guys have is they have split lives.

They've got a work life. They've got a weekend life. They've got a family life. They've got the boys where they watch football together. And none of these things are cohesive. But for me, I know that I'm like when I'm 80 years old, God willing, I would like to be sitting on the porch of my home with like a hundred great grandkids running around. That's my goal. I just want to have, I want to be the patriarch of a loving family that honors God and that can do good because we have the resources to do so.

When I think about that, everything falls into place. What kind of fitness do I have to be to be alive that long to have a health span, not just a lifespan, that allows me to enjoy that. What kind of relationship with my wife do I need? What kind of relationship to my work do I need? If everything is pointed towards the same goal, it becomes very easy to integrate everything. And if I cannot do the most important things, the things that I say are priorities while I am seeking my goal, then I'm seeking the wrong goal. And what I mean by that is if it is important for me to teach my boys how to become good men and fathers, if I am spending too much time working, that I don't have the time to train them properly. well then my life is out of alignment and I need to change. That might mean lack of efficiency for a season and that has to be okay. And so I think if you as a man can outline what you want out of life in the most fundamental sense, and I have my clients write their own eulogy from their children's point of view, assuming all went well, who would you be to your kids at the end of your life? Now go be that man. Who is he? What does he have to do? What happens 10 years from now

so you become him. And if everything is pointed to your North Star, everything falls into alignment. But so many men are just living visionless, purposeless, and assuming roles that suck. Like, if you're not good at being a good human, like work or you're sitting inside all day, or you're not eating well or you're not exercising,

no wonder things feel bad, man, because you're not even supporting the fact that you're human. So that's what I would say for balance. It's actually about integration headed toward a specific goal. Well, you know, Kurt, I think a lot of this ties back to purpose, right? because if somebody, you know, I think there's a lot of, a lot of men today and women, but especially men, that are just demotivated.

It's like they're still, you know, they're in their 30s living in their parents' basement, sort of in some of that's reality and some of it's still that way, kind of metaphorically in life. So how does a man get motivated? Like some of them, you know, the ones, I'm playing video games. I'm not showing up. I'm half-hearted. I'm just, I'm not inspired. what would inspire them?

What would make them go and be that dad and that husband and that person that is doing great things? Well, number one is that vision. We work with our guys to cast a large vision because I can motivate you in the moment for a little while to do the good things in your life that you need like habits. So our guys also have habit stacks.

So they're up early. They're working out. They're intentional with their nutrition. They're doing gratitude. They're reading. They're doing all these things. And that's great. But if that's not leading you to a greater purpose, one day comfort's going to be the most

important purpose. You're going to be like, I don't really feel like working out. Why am I even doing this? I'm tired, man. I'm just going to take a break. And then you never get back on the horse. But when you pair the day by day moment by moment habits with the lifelong vision and those two things inform one another, it's very hard to miss.

The other thing about this is I think men require brotherhood. I don't think we're meant to be these lone wolves. I think in fact, if you look at nature, I look this up once. And I think the truth is, lone wolves either die or they go back to the pack or they don't at least kill large game. And so they're like undernourished or something, right? They don't do well. But this idea of isolation, this idea of individuality that we separate from the home when we're 18, 19, 20 years old to go start a whole new like individual life pod. I think that's broken and it's causing us isolation.

and I think this is another way that, you know, evil enters the world by keeping people isolated. And so if you want to do great things with your life, go surround yourself with men who want the same thing and then have a vision and the daily habits to get yourself there. And also, if you're listening to this, just go take action. Yeah. You know, I was going to make maybe a funny, funny comment. Some people might think it's funny. Other people may not. I was going to let you know how offended I am that you even use the word patriarchy.

I love the word. I'm so sorry. I will go to, yeah. No, but like so, but you know, when I think of patriarchy and what you're saying this into, this idea of being alone, I think back when I read the Bible, I was reading, I read Genesis a lot. And, you know, when you read about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and sort of, you know, they're never like, we had our family of one or two people and we were alone or whatever. It was like, no, they had themselves.

and other families and other families and other families. It was this sort of like family tree that just kept growing and growing and growing. And men were never alone. Families were never alone. Women, everybody was always integrated together and there was always help. You know, I've actually heard from a lot of people

because they oftentimes, especially when they move away from their family, like it's really hard. Like Chelsea and I are so blessed because her parents and my parents are there for the kids anytime all the time. Like I could call my mom be like, mom, I need you here for a month. Boom, she'll be here. Or Chelsea's parents, like, live next door to us.

And they're always, always there helping. But there's so many families today where it's like they don't have that. There's just no accountability. And so I think this for men, too, there's no accountability. There's nobody giving them a kick in the butt. Nobody's saying you need to do more with your life. And so I see that missing. And also, you know, in terms of purpose, like, I know what wakes gets me excited is,

I think about like, what am I called to do? I believe I'm called to love God, love people, make earth a heavenly place. Part of that is through mentoring, discipling, other, men and kids and people to be the best they can be fine their calling growing in skill and in character and you know god put uh adam and eve in this garden and basically they were supposed to take that garden of eden and make the whole earth a garden of eden i believe we're going to have a new heaven and new earth and we'll see that my point is like i know i'm going to live for eternity i know god's called me to do big things and so i wake up in the morning like let's go you know the same thing

i get in get in get my workout have my superfood smoothie get back, give my baby girl a kiss, give my wife a kiss and say, hey, how can I serve you today? What's going on today? And then jump right into work, right? So, but I don't think a lot of people have that. And it's, you know, and, man, I just keep going like this, this mentorship thing. I think is such a big deal.

You know, let me ask you this. One, one aspect of this is raising kids, right? And if somebody hasn't been exposed to, they weren't raised correctly, right? maybe it could be challenging, just generally, it could be challenging to raising good kids. What are some of the kind of secrets or the principles you abide by in terms of raising great kids? Like what are the boundaries? What are the ways you affirm them or challenge them to, you know, build their identity and their values and be everything they're supposed to be? Man, yeah, that is the biggest question, I think, for just me coming into this with no ideas.

number one, what if you just were the dad that you needed? Like, you know how you felt as a kid. Why don't you just start there? And that can help. But that doesn't necessarily give you the skills. I totally agree with the way that you have been laying it out, though, which is a father supports yet challenges. Now, a mother's role is different.

I can't believe that I can say that. People are going to be so offended that a mother and a father are actually different, but it's true. A mother is much better at just nurturing and being there where a father should be able to sue the, his children, but then expects greater things from them. Not because they're not good enough in his eyes, but because he knows that they will thrive if they are pushed a little bit more than they want to be. Now, I think about what happens when God the Father speaks to Jesus upon his baptism?

He loves him. He affirms him, and he gives him an identity. He says, this is my son who I love, and so you're giving the identity of the father to the son. You're loving him. unconditionally and then you're saying I'm pleased with him with him I'm well pleased that's affirmation so if I break it really simply love identity and affirmation are the three things that a father needs to give a son there's way more than that obviously and we need to make sure that they have virtues like fortitude and temperance and all these things so that they can suffer well so that they have discipline so that they don't just look for that immediate dopamine hit but can do good things in a world that is trying to vie for their attention and throw them off

So for me, we make sure that our kids have basic boundaries around everything we do. So timing in terms of like wakeups, meals, bedtimes, bath times. They know that we are in charge. And that's very rare these days because we have this culture where, oh, kids can do whatever they want. They should be whoever they want. We should affirm their individuality. That's, I just think that's wrong. My kids are secure in the knowledge that I am actually in charge.

so that they don't have to feel alone and ill-equipped to deal with life. And that's how I felt as a kid. So it's very important for me that they don't feel alone. So, I mean, again, you can interrupt any time if you want. But those are sort of the basics. And we can go on for hours on this. I love it. I saw this meme the other day.

And I sent it to a couple friends of mine. I got a buddy from Nebraska named Dan, and I sent this to him. And because I just knew he would relate. And it said something like this, because this is my dad. It said something like, you can't. say anything that would possibly hurt me. I used to bring my dad the wrong tools. So I remember when I was a kid and my dad, by the way, like my brother can take an entire car apart and put it back together. My dad's the same way. It's like my sister married a guy who can do that. So my grandfathers were

like that. They were all like, I was never quite wired like that, exactly, you know, to be very, very handy in that way. Or I guess I just didn't have the interest like my brother did. But I remember bringing my dad tools like uh you know he'd ask for uh you know a phillips head screwdriver and i'd bring the wrong one and he would just give me the hardest time but you know it's like it made me ready to deal with the world like i got a hard time it's okay i'm gonna have fun with oh my dad's giving me a hard time so when other people in the world gave me a hard time it was like i wasn't offended i wasn't like how dare you say that to me i was like hey you know what i got thick skin i can take this my dad used to yeah i used to bring him the wrong tools um and that's part of a dad's job is i'm gonna

toughen you up. Because if I don't, you're going to get out in the world and you're, you're not going to stay on your ground. I need to teach you where the, I need to teach you how to stand up to the bullies, right? If we don't have dads doing that. And people are getting walked all. This is something I see a lot of men today. They're just getting walked all over. They're just dormats. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple things that came up in there. Number one, I think what we're seeing is like a lot of nice guys who are afraid of conflict and they don't know how to rock the boat. And so therefore, they're just willing to abandon their own values. to have like the happy wife, happy life idea.

And that's the worst advice for marriage you can possibly be. You need to be firm in what you believe and you need to stand up for truth and goodness, even if people will be upset by it because the truth is the truth. And that is what we all be defending. And so if someone is upset with the decision that you make, that's okay.

They're allowed to be and you're still allowed to stand by that. And I think so many people miss that because they're not equipped because their father's never taught them, but they're also worried about offending people in this modern climate. But another thing that, I think, just to circle back to what a father can give to a child, is this identity piece is actually

bigger than I think a lot of people give it credit for. You're like, what does it matter where I come from? What does it matter who I am? Like, I'm just going to figure myself out. But the vision, like a multi-generational story of where you come from, that's why people are so interested in like 23 of me, for example, right? Like, I want to know what my history is. I want to know where I come from. I want to know what things I might share with a group of people. We are tribal in a sense that we want to relate to people who are like us. But what happens if a father does not do this well, then a child is uncertain of their identity?

What's all the rage today? It's this idea of identity. Any child who has been affirmed by a father that says, you are love for you, and you are exactly as God made you, and he was pleased to make you that way, and I love you the way you are, no child goes out in the world and goes like,

oh, I think I might not be like the boy that I was born as. that's not going to happen to a child who has a father who affirms his identity. And so I think that's why there's extra pressure now on us to make sure our kids are given that firm loved identity, beloved son, beloved daughter, whatever that is, from a father so that they don't go looking for that affirmation elsewhere. I think the final thing you said on this tough love piece is so freaking important. We're all about, you know, gentle parenting and calm parenting. And those are beautiful tools, but they're not the whole.

game and they're especially not the whole fatherhood game. I think that a lot of times we need that friction, that sandpaper, that push, that hard boundary to find out where the limits that we should be operating within. And I just want to give that one extra addition for the guys who are like, oh, I knew it. I'm just going to keep being a, you know, a jerk to my kids because they're going to learn. Look, you can give them boundaries and you can train them up in the way they should go to encourage discipline and strength, but you have to be doing it with love as well. If it's just tough without love, well, it's not tough love anymore. It's just kind of being a jerk. So make sure that whatever you're doing is loving and affirming and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

You know, I hadn't heard the breakdown before that you kind of went through that three-set process when Jesus is baptized. You know, you're my son, whom I love, in which I'm well-pleased. That is the model. That is the model for fathers, what you just shared right there. This is who you are. Like for my daughter, you're an axe. You're a child of God. You have great character.

You work hard. You do these things. I love you so much. And I'm proud of you. You know, the thing that my dad did that I think means the most of me growing up, I mentioned showing up for all of my games. That meant so much. The fact that he cared.

But the fact that my dad made me do pull-ups, he cared. He wanted me to get better and grow. But one of the things my dad did, and by the way, I don't think my dad's dad did this very well. And the fact that my dad had kind of the awareness and wisdom to do this with me, my dad would place his hand on my shoulder and he would say, Josh, I'm proud of you. And I think today we're living in a society where there are so many men who have never had another man place their hand on their shoulder, an older man, and say, I'm proud of you, son. And, you know, I think about for us and any man listening, even women who are inspiring the men on this, on this, on this show is that, you know, like there's this, there's this frame of mind that I have and it's called I see and you. And so I try and do this with the men in my life. I have a mentorship group that I'm a part of with guys, some my age, some little younger than me. And I try and do that where I'll do that thing. And my grandfather did the same thing to me too. My mom's grandfather. And I put my hand on their shoulder and say, listen, you've

done this so well. I'm so proud of you. This is who you are. You've shown great leadership. And so I think for all of us being able to do that with our kids and with those other men in your life that are, you know, around your same age or younger than you being able to speak in their life and say, you're good at this. I'm proud of you. Man, it means so much. And I think that's, that's part of that mentorship thing that I think that, you know, a lot of guys are men. And I think guys are yearning for that. And I think sometimes people either just give up or they try and find another way to get recognized because they haven't, somebody say, I recognize you. I'm proud of you.

Yeah. And while you see that in like in online forums, I heard this recently from someone who knew a little bit more about this. Like there's Reddit communities where you will go in there and be having a hard time, but they will affirm you for going like, well, I kind of feel like I might actually be a cat today. They're like, oh, that's amazing. I'm a cat too.

We can all be cats together. And they get that burst of like, oh, you're, you accept me? And so that's where the danger comes in. And I think this is such an important point. I even recognize in myself the fact that this was not something that I got a lot because I was on a call with my mentor the other day. And he said, man, I'm so proud of you. And I was like, really? And it was like that childish joy of, oh, thank goodness.

Like, thank you so much for affirming that. And you cannot replicate that. I've tried. I've looked everywhere and you cannot do it. And so there's an idea that I've- You can't say it to yourself. That's the thing I think you're getting it here too. It's like, it's like tell yourself you're great and fantastic. We're wired for relationship. You can't just tell yourself you're great. You won't, you don't fully consciously believe it. Yeah, there is so much to

be said about the power of positive thinking, but I think people take it too far because anything that is not worthy of being worshipped will crumble under that weight. And if you put yourself at the top of the hierarchy where you're trying to worship yourself, you're this like, oh, you're so good. that's always, you're going to disappoint yourself. And then what happens when you say I'm proud of you? You're like, well, I don't really trust that guy. And so that's not going to work. But I think so I have always in my adult life wanted to make friends because I moved around

a lot as a kid. I have no legacy friends. Like I moved around every year or so. And I'm like, man, I would love to have a bunch of friends. And in my head, I was like, if I could just have like 10 mentors and like 50 friends and then like a bunch of people around me, that would be sweet. And what I've realized is that's impossible. Like, that's just not going to happen.

And I think the sweet spot is if you have at least one mentor who is further along than you are, that is an absolute life-changing, game-changing thing to have that very few men have, and you're giving them what you just said. You can say, as a mentor, I'm proud of you. And you get that as a mentee. So to find a coach or a mentor who is farther along is absolutely necessary. And if you are taking their advice, they better have the life that you want to be living. And if you're on the flip side of that, if people give you a friend of that,

if people give you advice and they're not living the life that you want to be living, ignore them. But then I think a healthy group of three to five good friends who are with you in the trenches going forward at the same pace and then as many people as you can inspire and lead as possible so that you can expand all of those ranks. So I just think that one, two, three tier, the mentor ahead of you, the friends beside you and the people you're bringing along. I think that's the perfect place for a man to be, especially in sort of our generation,

the 30 to 45-ish range, that's where I think we all ought to be and that's where I'm really trying to be right now. I love it. This is such a good point because it's this idea too, if you didn't have a father that showed up and that wasn't a great dad,

well, how do you make up for that, right? It's like, well, how do I overcome that? And there's a lot of things, and I love any recommendations on that, but I think what you just shared is, part of that is, well, how do you make up for that? You get other father-like figures, in your life. I've actually seen a lot of people heard some men, especially in things like college football,

a guy like Nick Sabin or Davos-Sweeney or some of these great coaches, you know, their players will say about them. I remember people saying this about a guy like Bobby Bowden, like, he was like a father to me. You know, he was the dad I never had, right? And so I think being able to find those sort of mentors in your life and the Iron Sharpen's Iron. And then being what you never had for those other people, when you do that, that's the greatest thing to help make up for that. And then also connecting with God and your heavenly father, what does he say about you? Start reading about that. So how that influences and it affects us is so, so powerful. What are some other things people can do, men can do, to heal these father wounds that they have? So there's a couple of very specific things

that I want to mention. One is just a beautiful ministry of a man named Ed McGlassen, speaking of football. I think he was in the NFL for a few years. But it's called the blessing of the father. I'm not related to it. I'm not whatever. But he, I had a lot. a life-changing call with him. He is a mature man. And on this call, because I was going to have him on my podcast, and he's like, let's just meet first to make sure it's a good fit. Supposed to be 10, 15 minutes, and like, 75 minutes later, he is like, can I just pray for you? And I'm like, sure, you're an older man. You're no more about God than me. I'm a new Christian. And what he prayed over me was literally the blessing of the father. He just said, you are a beloved son. You are loved. You are only, you know,

important in the father he's got you all these things and I just started crying because I never had the actual blessing and you can read about it I can imagine I can pray I can feel the presence of God but hearing it from a real human being did something to me and I just I feel like I broke so I don't know that that's that was really impactful for me another thing in terms of healing the father wound because look guys you are the way you are because your parents are the way they were and your kids will be the way they are because of you are the way you are so let's just really understand that the way that we are is very much due to our parents. And so there's usually, like we talked about before,

this father-sized hole that needs to be forgiven and then filled by God, hopefully. But the forgiveness aspect is what trips up a lot of people. They're angry at their dad. They're not sure how to get back to it. They're like, if I have to forgive him, then he has power over me, what's going on? And so one of the most impactful tools that I've ever done is a letter writing process. So I did this after my dad had passed away already. So he doesn't even need to be in your life.

you don't need, you shouldn't send this to him, I should say, but write a letter to your father. And there's three headings here. Number one, dad, something I want to say to you is. And just write until you can write no more. Number two, dad, something I'm angry at you for is right until you can write no more. And third, dad, something I see in you that I see in myself is. And you write about all the things that you guys share. Now, a final piece of this that I found very helpful was to have a little bit of a visualization

and visualize your father as a child and realize at one point he was not the man he drew into being. He had a life that impacted him in such a way that allowed him or made him be the man he was and that's no excuse for the fact that he didn't do better but it does help you to give just that little bit of forgiveness. Oh, it wasn't fully his fault.

Oh, I wonder if I can forgive my father for that. And the forgiveness of your father is absolutely transformational. it will free you from so much pain. And I've heard it before that holding a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. That's very true. And I think that, you know, we have been forgiven, like just as a believer personally, as a Christian. I've been forgiven infinitely more than I could ever forgive even if someone like did the worst things in the world to me for the next hundred years.

God's forgiveness of me as a wretched sinner is so much more. So there's no justification for me to withhold forgiveness. And while it is the hardest thing in the world to have to let go of that pain and that suffering, the forgiveness piece, it is absolutely transformational. So I think that is where I would go with a deep father wound. It's so good. One of the things I wanted to clarify, I was thinking about our whole conversation here is this sort of relationship between, we're talking about fathers, we're talking about kids. talking about marriage. And I think for myself, the way that I, you know, the way that I read the Bible, the way that I really believe that man and women are supposed to be is sort of two sides of the same

coin. There's a, there's a term in, in the Bible, it's when you read the word Eve, the word, there's a, there's a Hebrew word. There's also, it's the word, help me. And the idea there is, is that a wife or your spouse is, you're, it's a beneficial adversary. And it's like what you talked about, it's the refiner, it's the sandpaper. It's an adversary, but yet it's beneficial for you. It's this iron sharpens iron in this marriage. And it's this, the, the Judaic belief is this sort of it's you're one, you're two side of the same coin when you're married.

However, the Bible, I think really talks about this is that like, you know, the woman is bringing unique qualities to the table, which is different. The man's bringing unique qualities to different, the husband and the wife. But when push comes to shove, you know, the woman is sharing a lot of wisdom with a man. But when it comes down to this is the final decision and choice, everything is made together. But that final decision, that's the man, that's the husband. That's where I'm going to make the final decision and lead. Now, this could be as basic as something like, I'll give you an example.

By the way, I think if you're married, you'll understand this, is that my wife and I, every night, it seems like we have a conversation about what are we going to do for food? And I probably make the decision 90% of the time, like where we're going to eat? even if I tell her, hey, you pick, no. And so she wants, she wants me to choose. She wants me to pick. Now, on occasion, my wife is pregnant right now. So sometimes she's craving something.

Okay, and she knows. And I'm like, okay, baby, we're going to get that. But anyways, what are your thoughts on sort of that dynamic in terms of leadership and this connectivity in between a husband and a wife? Yeah. So this is so important because I think a lot of people, I was thinking the other day, I was actually, I was listening to this Metallica as a new album. and someone's like, oh, listen to this. I haven't listened to Metallic for ages. So I looked up something on

James Hadfield the singer. Well, apparently he got divorced unfortunately recently, but the reason was like irreconcilable differences. And I thought, ooh, that's such an interesting thing that we've let come into relationship these days. How could there be anything irreconcilable when you, you know, it says let not man take apart what God has put together. But anyway, what that means to me is that so many of us think that marriage is just about what do I get out of this? How is it? How is it? is benefiting me. But if you look at it in this more, well, in the larger context of having a broader perspective, marriage is one of the best tools of sanctification. This is not for you to get what you want. This is for you to become whom you are supposed to become. So all the hard parts,

and this goes for everything in life, but marriage is a very good example. All of the hardships in marriage are for you to grow through. And if that's your attitude, then divorce is never an option. Like it doesn't make any sense to leave this most beautiful place to grow. And I think that's what a lot of people miss. And so for me and my wife, there's this idea of, you know, we each have our own roles. And I've talked to a couple guys in my podcast and they're like, look, the amount of times where I've had to make like the final call when my wife didn't like it was like a handful. So we're not talking about like, my way or the highway, babe. It's like obviously she has so much wisdom that I don't have. Obviously, I am doing everything I can for it to be beneficial to all of us.

But the point of decision making at the end of the day is who bears responsibility? Do I want to put the responsibility of something that might go wrong on my wife and have her feel like, oh man, I made the wrong choice, the family suffering. No way. I am the man and it is my responsibility to take full responsibility of everything. And that way, if there's anything that goes wrong, it's on me. I want to remove as much of the burden from her life as possible so that she can then love better and grow better and be a better mother.

And when it says love your wife like Christ love the church, what did he do? literally laid his life down for her. That is not what a wife is called to do for a husband. She's called to submit to him, but what's more challenging to die or to submit? And I think a lot of people think these days that submission is way worse than dying. And I'm like, dude, this is totally backwards.

So my entire existence is to love my wife sacrificial to the point of death. No greater love has man than this, but to lay down his life for his friends. That's in the Bible as well. And that is what I'm doing as a husband. My wife is so amazing because she gives me so much more than I can ever do alone. And together we give each other so much more than we could ever do alone. But we help each other and edify each other and help each other grow knowing that we have our roles.

And so I'm not confused by like, did you do this? Was I supposed to do this? And she's not confused going like, well, I guess I better go do this as well because there's no confusion. It's just boundaries and love and all the rest of this kind of stuff. So we both go farther than we could have individually. Yeah, obviously what you're talking about is roles here. And this is so important in anything in life, it's like, you know, when we played sports, right?

And it's like, okay, if I'm in the wrong position on the field, and I have the wrong role or my roles are confused. Everybody's trying to play the same role. You're going to lose the game every time. And so it's really important to know your role. And by the way, I love that you brought this up and it's so important that here's the thing that some husbands miss. You're called to die for your spouse.

In fact, I think that this is where one of the big things where I don't agree with Islam as a religion is that actually Islam, it's interesting. Judaism, Israel means wrestle with God. Islam means submit to God. And I believe Christianity really means it's this sort of mini-Christ, you're following Christ, you're being like Christ, you're being a son of God, like you are. So all that being said, but, you know, just, you know, if it's all about submission versus I do think there's a level of submission. there, but also we're called to do the even have even the greater sacrifice of not just to submit, but to die and literally give everything up for our families. And I love that you brought that up. You know, you've been really blessed, it seems like, to have some now in your life, some great mentors,

some some great men. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Oh, man. You know what? Let's see how much stalling I can do here because there is so much. You can give me your top two if you want. Yeah, and I'm sure there I was, I mean, when I, when I thought about that question for myself, I thought, wow, that's, that's a, it's a tough one. But you know what? The one thing that comes to mind, it's going to be on marriage. And this was totally random. I wasn't looking for this. But we attended premarital classes at a church. I wasn't going to church at the time. I just knew I needed to be married in a church rather than the government office. I just didn't feel good about that. But when we were going there before,

He said your wife, the pastor was saying, your wife should be your number one human relationship. And that's bizarre to me because it has been the one constant through everything in my life. We have gone through hell and back. We have gone through war together. And because I trust her with everything and she trusts me with everything, I can't imagine. If there was any, even like the slightest chink in that armor, if I was like, well, when things get hard, I'll just like find someone else. It's through that knowledge that divorce was off the table and that I go to her before anyone else. And the loyalty is maximum.

And that wasn't even like a piece of advice. It was just from a sermon. And so I'm just thinking back now with this marriage that that was so beautiful. And, man, I, yeah, nothing else comes from mine right now. That's good. This is one of those questions. And man, I got to do some thinking on because there's probably a lot. But other than, oh, maybe one more thing.

And this isn't necessarily a good piece of advice. It's just a crazy story. So last Christmas, my mom gives me an envelope. And I was like, oh, what's this? She's like, I found something you're going to want. And so I open it up. And it's a letter from my father. When I was like six months old that he wrote while I was sleeping on him, they were

going through this baby book. And it's like, write a letter to your child and tell them what you want for them. And I have never seen this out of my father before. it was when he was still married to my mother. It was when he was like going to church, way different man than I ever knew. And what a favor from God. I didn't need this.

I was closed in my relationship with my dad. I had forgiven him. I love him. I'm grateful for him. And it was just this favor that God decided to give me. But in there, through this like unconditional love that my father wrote, which I never like felt from him, he also said at the very end,

if there's one thing I can give to you, It's to trust the Lord Jesus Christ with your life and have that salvation. And man, this was after like I'd become a Christian and this was after everything with my dad. But can you imagine like the gift of certainty? Because this was about six months after I was saved very recently, only last year or so. And like what better piece of advice is there than that? Trust Jesus. So I mean, that's maybe not the answer you're looking for.

But that's what comes to mind. It's like a, this is like a scene out of a movie. You know, it's beautiful. I love that. What's your best piece of advice for men to become men, leaders, and leaders of their family? It's to take full responsibility of literally everything else around you. So just be the point, guy. Nothing is anybody else's fault.

Nobody's coming to save you. It's on you. And that's glorious because it means that you are no longer a victim in anything in your life. You have full ability to change, to grow, to lead, and that's what everyone around you is looking for. People want someone to follow. They want a role model. Your kids need someone too long to be. Like, you should be the man who is worth following such that your son would want to be you and your daughters would want to marry someone like you. And if you're being a victim, that's never going to happen. So just assume that everything that happened may not have been your fault. Full your responsibility to fix it. And from there, everything else flows.

It's so good. So good, Kurt. Well, hey, I learned a lot today. You brought so much wisdom. I mean, I love the, just this mentality, too, that you start off talking about. You got to be hard to kill. You know, you got to be able to nurture your family. You got to be able to challenge.

You got to be able to lead them well. And so that was just, you know, powerful lessons. So many great things here. Hey, I want to share with everybody where you can find Kurt. On Instagram, you can find him. It's at dadwork. org, c-U-R-T, so at dadwork. Also, podcast, his podcast is The Dad Work Podcast.

So the Dad Work podcast. You can also find him at Dad.org. If you just look up DadWork and Kurt online, you'll find him all over the place. Again, he's also got a coaching group if you're interested in that, but he's obviously doing some incredible things. And Kerr, I've enjoyed our conversation today. I think we share a lot of the same values and worldview on what this world needs. It needs more men that are virtuous leaders willing to lay down their life for their family. and so grateful for you coming on and sharing your wisdom with us today.

Man, thank you so much. This has been an absolute blessing and so much fun. I appreciate the work you do, man. Thanks so much. Hey, guys, thanks for tuning into the Growth Lab podcast. Remember each and every week we're covering the science behind how to grow. If you're not subscribed here, make sure to subscribe, like, comment. Hey, I'd love to hear from you.

Hey, what was your favorite part of this podcast? Hey, let me know, what was your biggest takeaway? And what are some things you want us to cover in the, future. We got a lot of other great guests coming on. We may have Kurt back sometime because I enjoy this conversation so much. I want to say again, thanks for everybody for sharing, for subscribing, and being part here of the Growth Lab community. Thanks again to Kurt for coming on today. Just bring in so much wisdom. Remember, check out his content at the Dad Work podcast there. Again, thanks so much everybody for being a day. And again, thanks to Kurt Storing for sharing his

wisdom. God bless.