The Dr. Josh Axe Show - Self-Help Culture, Therapy, & The Mental Health Crisis | Dr. Sue Varma

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Did you know that 1 in 5 adults in the U.S. lives with a mental illness? In this groundbreaking episode, Dr. Josh Axe sits down with renowned psychiatrist, cognitive behavioral therapist, and clinical assistant professor at NYU Langone Health, Dr. Sue Varma. As the pioneering medical director of the 9/11 mental health program, Dr. Varma has a wealth of insights on resilience, trauma, and carving a path forward during life's most challenging times. Frequently appearing as a top medical expert across major networks like NBC, CBS, ABC, and CNN, Dr. Varma brings her integrative approach to discuss how cultivating an optimistic mindset rooted in self-worth and compassion can profoundly transform our lives.  Prepare to dive into: The psychological impact of trauma and how to build resilience Overcoming the "victim mindset" that sabotages our potential The "4 Ms of Mental Health": mindfulness, movement, mastery, and meaningful engagement Toxic positivity and the dangers of social comparisons Mental fitness tips to boost your mood and find more joy By the end of this insightful conversation, you'll walk away with a roadmap to nurture your mental well-being, rewrite limiting beliefs, and unlock your optimal mindset for thriving in all areas of life. Want more of The Dr. Josh Axe Show? Subscribe to the YouTube channel. Follow Dr. Josh Axe Instagram Twitter Facebook Tik-Tok Follow Dr. Sue Varma Instagram Twitter Facebook Follow Leaders Instagram Twitter Facebook Email Newsletter ------  0:00 - Rise of mental health issues 2:38 - Is therapy good for you? 6:00 - Identity, optimism, and pessimism 10:09 - Research behind optimism 15:44 - Toxic positivity 19:26 - The 4 M’s of mental health 23:52 - Impact of social media on mental health 28:22 - People are less religious and more empty 32:55 - Cultural differences in community 42:17 - How parents can teach kids resiliency 52:40 - One thing you need to do right now ------  Links:  Check out Dr. Sue Varma’s NEW BOOK, Practical Optimism → https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Optimism-Practice-Exceptional-Well-Being/dp/0593418948 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everyone, welcome to the Dr. Josh Axe Show, where each and every week I cover the science and principles behind how to grow in body, mind, and spirit, and take your health and life to the next level. Today we'll be joined by Dr. Sue Varma. She's a distinguished psychiatrist. In fact, she's got a new book out that's getting rave reviews. She's also an assistant professor at NYU Health. She's also served as a pioneering medical director and psychiatrist for the renowned 9-11 mental health. program at NYU, and she's appeared all over the place as a commentator for news outlets like NBC, CBS, and CNN, and really excited to dive in today. We're going to talk about all things mental health, mindset and more. Dr. Sue, welcome the show. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure to be here. Love all the work that you're doing and so enjoy learning and following you. So thank you for having me on. But Dr. Sue, one of the things that I'm really passionate about, I know you are as well, is helping people live their best life through fostering the right type of mindset. And one of the things

that I see as we spend time on social media is oftentimes there's a sort of emphasis on, think positively. And this could mean several things. One, it could be tell yourself how perfect you are and worthy you are and really focus on self-love. Okay, I see a lot of that. And then there's also, I think, an element of, you know, a lot of people talking about mental health. issues. In fact, you've seen this as well. Mental health issues have continued to increase. One of the first questions I have for you is, do you believe that the solution for mental health is focusing more on yourself and telling yourself how great you are? You know, it's very tricky because on some level, we all need a little bit of a boost in confidence

and sense of self-work. So from that perspective, I think it is important and healthy to feel like you have value. At the same time, I see that a lot of the unhappiness and rise in mental health problems is because we're feeling disconnected and alienated from other people. And sometimes thinking you're so wonderful prevents you from getting close to other people. So I would say that there is a very delicate balance, which is why I'm more of a fan of this idea of self-worths and self-compassion over self-esteem. Because self-esteem says you're only worthy as long as things are going good in your life. And if you're winning, your self-esteem is up.

And if you're not, your self-esteem is down. And instead, what we want is more of like a healthy sense of self. that doesn't say I'm better than you, but rather allows you to feel comfortable enough so you can put your ego down. You can check the ego at the door and you can just be vulnerable and authentic with someone else. Yeah, I mean, that's so important for relationships, right? Is this sort of being vulnerable is a sense of, it's a type of humility, right? Being able to share your faults and openly and also a form of trusting others. And so these things are obviously really, really important.

You know, I see this a lot with self-help, though. Again, it's just tell yourself you're perfect a lot, which I don't even think our neurology is wire. that way to believe that, even if we're just saying that over and over again to try and make ourselves believe that. I saw something recently, too. There's a psychologist who was on the Joe Rogan podcast, and they were talking about the root causes of depression. And one of the things that she shared was we're living in a culture of counseling. And so, you know, even people, you know, of all ages, really even younger and younger going and getting counseling. And obviously, counseling can be wonderful. But also she said she's actually seen it cause depression to get worse because most

counselors today when somebody comes in, they just keep directing people back to their own problem. And so she calls it rumination where you're constantly ruminating, thinking about yourself and your problems and some counselors even facilitating that. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. So, you know, look, I think that the openness and willingness to go to therapy when you need it can be so super helpful. I do think that for some people it can be destabilizing where maybe they're revisiting, for example, things that happened in their past and they're like, I wasn't prepared to go there. It's kind of like when you clean your room, sometimes you have to empty all your drawers, you have to like empty out the closet and you kind of create a little bit more of a mess. And the idea

is that in therapy, with a good therapist, not only are you thinking about your thoughts. So I can see that their rumination comes in, but then you're actually given actionable steps. So like if somebody excited. If the therapist said, let's like dump everything from your dressers onto the middle of the floor in a pile. And then the therapist is like, see you later. That wouldn't be helpful. But if they were like, let's look at, let's examine each of these items. It's kind of like, you know, I was doing couples therapy earlier today and the wife was telling me that she was helping her 11-year-old daughter sort through the closet and they spent five hours together. And then one by one, they decided, do I want to keep this item of clothing or do I want to discard it? And so similarly,

I would say the therapist can be very helpful. in the sense that like, do we want to keep this negative thought? Do we want to keep this pattern of behavior? Is it still serving you? And if it's not, let's let's let's let go of it. And then hopefully, drawer by drawer, they help you neatly fold your clothes or fold your thoughts, fold your experiences, and pack them back in.

But also just give you skills and tools and resources about how to manage your life. So I always say to patients when they would come into my office and they would say, you know, I want to meet somebody. I want to meet a romantic partner. I was like, well, they're not falling from the ceiling into your lap. in this session, you know, life is what happens in between therapy sessions. So we're only going to see each other, let's say, once a week, 45 minutes, maybe once a month, maybe every other week. What are you going to do in between? And that's why I wrote this book, Josh, is practical optimism.

It's because I wanted to give skills to people so that they don't have to come see me. I'm happy. I know that sounds counterintuitive and they're like, Sue, Arma, how are you going to make a living? I'm like, don't worry about me. I'm fine. I want you to be able to not have to go see a therapist in an ideal situation. but if you do, there's no shame in it. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. You know, there's this, I'd love to dive into identity for a minute. There's this idea that I think is really, it's really balanced in the Bible.

And that's of, you know, this idea of for us to believe and understand that we are sinful, which means we're imperfect beings, we're broken, yet we have the capacity to do great good. Right. So there's a sort of balance of understanding that, like, We are far from being God, like we are very far from that, yet we're made in the image of God. And so that's incredible in and of itself. And so how much do you believe that it's important to sort of, and this is something Carl Jung, the famed psychologist, would talk about as well as understanding.

One of the first things we have to understand about ourselves is that we have a great capacity for evil, which humbles us, but also a great capacity for good, which can give us confidence in that worth and value that you talked about, how important do you think that is today to really be able to embrace both of those ideas at the same time? Beautiful, and to me that's the hallmark of intelligence is to be able to hold disparate ideas,

maybe paradoxical, maybe contradictory, and to be able to entertain both, to be able to create space for both and to be able to acknowledge both. And I think for a lot of people, we live in a world where we want things to be black and white. We want things to fit into meat pockets. And when they don't, we get very upset.

We get angry with the people around us and we disconnect from them. And that's why we're in the midst of a loneliness crisis, because we expect everything to make sense. And things don't. And I love this idea that we are flawed human beings, whether you want to look at it from a morality point of view or just the fact that in Eastern wisdom and Buddhism, they talk about the idea that pain is part of life.

But suffering is what you make of it. Suffering is because you're putting a spin. It's your negativity. It's this idea of the double arrow. Life is hard enough. We're going to be hit with one arrow. The second arrow is the interpretation that we make, the negativity, the pessimism, the heaviness that we add,

and how we get in our own way. And this idea that at any time when we worry, we suffer twice. And I think Mark Twain said that, but don't hold me to it, but this idea that we are creating our own negative interpretation. So I think it's important to understand. And that's what practical optimism is, is the practice, it's a choice. It doesn't come easy. There are so many days where negativity,

comes into my mind. But what has happened for me over time is that I take a step back and I ask myself, is this true? You know, what's the value in it? What's the cost benefit? What's the utility? And that's something I learned when I was working with 9-11 survivors because they would say, Dr. Drama, the world is evil. The world is not a safe place. And like, how do you argue with that? because something of this magnitude had never happened. And I wanted to say, yeah, you know, you're right. But then I realized that they don't want to leave their home because they think of the world this way. And then I had to ask the question, what's the utility? So like, you're right.

The world is scary, evil. I was just on a radio show this morning, WNYC radio, and a doctor had called in. And the doctor said, I used to be a relatively optimistic person. After the pandemic, I've lost my faith in people and humanity. What is there to be grateful for? And so the idea of free will and choice just came to me of like, and the utility. If we hold on to the negativity, who are we hurting? And we know that pessimism has a real net.

negative burden and cause for cardiovascular health, lowering our immune system, putting us more at risk for infections, for heart disease, for stroke, for cancer, for negativity, anxiety, depression, the list goes on. So it's like you can be optimistic or you could be pessimistic, right? Which one will you choose? Well, it's so good because one of the things, you know, when I was going through my biggest life crisis, I had a spinal infection and really had a really trying year a couple of years ago. I started getting these thoughts of hopelessness and despair. And it was a short period of time because I'm generally a very positive person.

And the thing that popped to my head was, is this serving me? Right. Is this mindset I'm cultivating right now? Is it going to allow me to reach my best a year from now, 10 years from now, in terms of getting back to 100%. And so share with me a little bit of this research that you've seen. Are there any studies? I think you essentially mentioned some of the benefits,

but any studies that really demonstrate the power and the efficacy of having a more optimistic outlook or optimistic mindset. Yes, absolutely. And we see this from, you know, cardiology to immunology to surgery. We see that people who can cultivate an optimistic mindset. And it could be as simple as just practicing a 10-minute optimistic intervention where you're asked to imagine the best possible scenario in your life. So a person says, you know, they're closing their eyes and they're like asking you like, if they think of a problem, where do you feel the problem in your body and imagine like all of the tightness and the clenched jaw and the clench this and then imagine a path to the best case scenario. And then once you arrive there, feel all the positive feelings.

So this 10 minute exercise, even if you are self-proclaimed pessimist, you can practice this daily. And that's all you need is just to show up. It's kind of like a yoga practice where you just show up and you do your thing. without expecting anything and over time it builds. And what they found is that people who regularly practice optimism or those that are born with it, you know, optimism is genetic,

but only 25%. The rest of it is learned that these folks have less heart attacks, like 50% almost, anywhere from 30 to 50% less cardiovascular problems, that includes strokes and heart disease and hypertension. And they live longer. And this was the beauty. This was like a drama study that showed

that optimists are more, likely to experience exceptional longevity, 20% more likely, and that means more good years spent in good health, you know, people who live to 85 and beyond. And I put my dad in this category, and, you know, a lot of what I've learned about optimism and practical optimism is watching him. And it's just so impressive to see that these folks, they do certain things. So it's not just the mindset, but they also take care of themselves, right? They have excellent habits from dental health and mental health. They show up for their screenings. You know, he's on his peloton every day. He walks five miles.

He helps me pick up the kids from school. He's helping us with dinner. So he's a retired psychiatrist, but he spent his whole life in service of other people, giving back to the community first in India, first year. And so that service, altruism, is the antidote to illumination. And I feel like so many young people right now, we're becoming self-absorbed where we want to achieve,

we want to impress. And so we're just focused on ourselves all the time and how can we be better? And that's kind of where the toxic positivity and the self-help can be little too much because we're so focused on ourselves as opposed to go out there, go contribute. And the best way to get over your own anxiety and depression is to help somebody else with bears. And I think that that's so hard for someone in the midst of feeling down like, I don't have a bandwidth. No, I'm going to push you.

And that's what I do with my patience is to say, listen, I know this seems so counterintuitive to you right now. If you're feeling lonely, reach out to someone else, ask them how they're doing. It'll take you out of your own mind. They'll make you forget about your problems. there's no greater treatment for sadness than to see a smile on somebody else's face. It's so true. I remember reading a research study on that years ago that one of the greatest things you could do for depression is serving other people. You know, it really is profound.

And as you said, it's sort of this, it's paradoxical oftentimes. We think, well, if I've got a problem, I should focus on my problem, right? And all of my problems versus, no, if you focus on relieving the problems of others, that will oftentimes relieve your problem. So. Yes. Yeah. And what it does is. It reinforces a sense of self-worth and meaning and mattering and belonging and being needed. And those are all the things that have been jeopardized and compromised when we're feeling depressed.

And so when you go and get out of the house and you are like, I shut up for someone. I helped them move. I brought them some food. I just sat with them. Then you're like, you know what? I ain't so bad. And because that's what happens is your own self-esteem and sense of self-worth kind of get chipped away. And it takes you out of your own head.

And we know that volunteering two hours. a week when it's done in service of others, leads to more longevity, less health problems, people live longer. And also with kids, we see that, you know,

if adolescents in high school are volunteering to help younger kids with homework, that they go on to have less inflammation and less heart disease in the body. So it really is protective and preventative service, altruism,

at a very early age. Yeah, I know you'd mention your father. I was thinking about my own parents when you mentioned that. And so I grew up with a mom who was super positive. And then I had a dad who was super pessimistic.

And so it was always interesting growing up. And they always married each other, right? And they're like the pessimist and the optimist. It always, you know, and I'm trying to even think about all, you know, friends and in-law, like, just people I know. And it does tend to have in the way. But there's some people listening right now and you're thinking about your parents. If you're fortunate enough to have both parents. And if one was negative, one was more positive and how that would, you know, family, family dynamic.

there. But yeah, we definitely had that in my house. And it's interesting. You know, I think that, you know, you'd mentioned 25% of people, you know, it might be genetic. But the larger portion of that 75% is learned. And I always thought when my dad was being negative, my mom was positive, I always thought that, again, when I started looking at the research and I started studying myself, I started realizing it's better to be positive. Like people that are more successful, I think generally speaking, people that are happier with their lives, you know, they definitely are more positive. I do want to turn here a little bit to this toxic positivity

because, like, you know, I'm thinking of it. We have a friend and everything is perfect all the time. I mean, everything is super positive. Everything is perfect. But we know that her parents growing up, there was major trauma, major abuse, major, you know. And so it's sort of like we see this as maybe overcompensating for the trauma of their past and never actually going and in addressing any of those issues.

Well, you know, share your thoughts on that because I do know that that's one of the things that you cover in your book. Yes, and that's, I'm so glad you brought that up because toxic positivity can take many forms. It could take the form of someone who's been through a lot and maybe they're living in denial of those things or they're deciding not to revisit them because they're like, that won't serve me and how is that helpful? Some level, healthy denial, small amounts of it. can be protective. A lot of times we need to, in order to function, not have to think about all the

things that happened to us in the past, unless toxic positivity is somehow either helping you not take responsibility for the changes that you need to make in your life, or in some form, the denial is manifesting in other ways. I always say that the body expresses what the mind cannot. So if a person is choosing not to revisit negative thoughts, they're going to show up in other aspects. They might have insomnia. They might have headaches, difficulty sleeping, fatigue, low energy, gut health problems, urinating frequently, not going into the bowel, and off, a variety of things. So if a person is saying, I have unexplained stress, but I'm doing okay, rah-rah.

I always ask people, how do you sleep at night? Because in my mind, sleep is a window into your mental health because they're like, I have no problems. I don't worry, what are you talking about? I'm not ruminating. I'm not anxious. And then the minute their head hits the pillow, all of these things for them. So stress can be manifested.

Unresolved trauma can be manifesting in the body or in their life. Maybe they're making poor relationship choices. Maybe they're struggling. And you're 100% right when you said with the optimism and the success, we know that optimists are 40% more likely to get a raise at their job in the next year. They're more likely, five times more likely to have engagement at work, six times less likely to be burnt out. They make more money.

Why? Because they save more money. Because they believe that there's a tomorrow. They're going to end up putting their money away. and 401k in retirement and traditional Roth IRAs, whatever investment tools are available, they're more likely to seek financial information and have financial literacy

because they believe that they are agents of change in their life. And a lot of pessimists don't. They think the world is messed up and the economy is messed up and the cards are stacked against them and they believe in a lot of conspiracy theories and they think that people are out to get them and no matter even if they saved with the inflation. So there is a self-sabotage element

and self-destructive element. to pessimism and to toxic positivity because blind optimism or extreme optimism is this idea of I'm just going to bury my head in the sand and everything will work out okay and that doesn't work as well something called the ostrich effect where you bury your head and you know even though you have information to the contrary you're going in debt and you know your cholesterol is elevated you have health problems you're just in denial and you don't do anything so those are the kind of two extremes and then the practical optimism is right in between and we do know interestingly that pessimists, they're actually more accurate in their information gathering, but they get

mired in negativity and they don't act. So practical optimism is like, listen, get the best of the pessimists. So listen to the pessimist. This is a joke. They're like, if you want accuracy, go to the pessimist. If you want action, go to the optimist. Wow, that's so good. Now, I'd love to talk about some solutions, because one of the things I know that you're really passionate about is helping people both become more aware, right? That awareness is so important. But also, So then moving forward and taking action, and I know I've heard you talk about things like mindfulness and movement, mastery, and having more meaningful engagement in our lives, walk us through some of those steps to help us improve our mental health and also become

more optimistic. Yes. So, you know, it was interesting. In April 2020, when New York City, death toll was rising with the COVID-19 pandemic, I was asked to join a program and they said, Dr. Barma, we want us. We want you to give us some nuggets of information that people can use today. And it was a show program with Lady Gaga and the World Health Organization, Rolling Stones, Elton John. And I was like, you know, I don't sing, I don't dance.

I don't know why you want me on the show. They're like, no, no, you're going to give us wisdom. And I said, great, how long do I have? You're asking a lot. I have an hour. They're like, no, you have 59 seconds. And I was like, what am I going to get to anybody in 59 seconds that's of value? And so I thought about what I'm doing in my practice.

I thought about what I'm doing in my life. What have I learned from my parents, watching my dad? They were the four ends of mental health, which are four science-back habits. That the meaningful engagement is my favorite one because it's about being emotionally attuned to another person, right? Because a lot of times we might be sitting there, maybe we're on our phone, we're not really paying attention, and we're not listening to the emotional content of the conversation. How is the person looking for? Are they making eye contact?

Is the person looks sad and their shoulders down? So doing an assessment of how a person looks and being really connected. to their feelings and say, tell me more, starting with open-ended questions, but making time to go vulnerable and to go deep, but also to supplement that with more superficial connections, the social snacking or the micro-connection. So you're walking your dog, you wave to the neighbor, stop for the five or ten minute, how's the family doing, what's new in your life, the barista, the dog walker, those small but meaningful connections that we lost during the pandemic because we just didn't have opportunity

who were told the distance. So meaningful engagement helps you live longer. You're in a loneliness crisis. you can decrease early morbidity and mortality by 50% by having good friends in their lives. And we know that good friends midlife are predictive about health in the 80s, the Harvard Longdensity Studies, Joga said. So that's the meaningful engagement. The mastery is you don't have to be a master to experience mastery.

What are you interested in? Cooking, golf, pottery, painting. Do it for no one else but for yourself. Don't put it on social media, I would say. Have fun. Just be in what we call a low, stakes, low state. A low state, low state is where no one is expecting anything. You're not getting graded. You're just having fun. You're immersing yourself and you're losing track of time. You're

being so in the moment, so ingraised. I was in Puerto Rico a few weeks ago and I dragged my husband to go salsa dancing, something I used to do in medical school, which helped me get through 100 hour work weeks. Just listening to the music, I felt like, oh my God, I'm back into Caribbean. I'm a you know, 20-something year old again. So allow yourself to be immersed and swept away in an activity where you're learning. You don't have to be great. I'm not great. I enjoy it.

And I always feel like I'm learning something. The movement can be literally you walking, taking your stairs, not driving, it could be yoga, any kind of movement, I would say, if you can, 30 minutes a day. We know that even a single exercise session per week can be preventative and also treat in mild to moderate cases of depression. I'm not saying it's going to replace therapy. or if you're on medication, but for me, exercise is one of the biggest antidotes for mental health problem and so underutilized. And the last one is mindfulness. Doing something single-mindedly.

We are living in a world where we believe that multitasking is the answer to success. And it is absolutely not. Multitasking is killing our relationships. It's killing our focus. There's something called a shallowing hypothesis going on where people are not going deep. They're not going deep when they read. We know that people who read things digitally are less likely to absorb or comprehend or be accurate in their assessment as compared to reading an old school book in their hands. It has to do with visual cues and memories and associating where words are on a page. And we're also being very shallow in our relationships. We're superficial. We're expecting immediate instant gratification. It's so true. You know, we've, most people have heard this to some

degree, but you know, we have more connections, yes, less friends, right? We're, we're We've got more, you know, quote unquote friends on social media, but actually less real, real friends out there. And so, and listen, I've harped plenty of times on the negativity of social media, especially for kids, but really adults as well. And so I don't know that we need to dig into that again. But what are your solutions and advice for people who really, they realize, because I think a lot of people feel this way right now.

I think a lot of people feel like they're lacking meaning in their lives. they're maybe not living a life of significance. They just feel a level of emptiness. What is your advice for the many, many people who are feeling that sense of that, you know, that hole in their heart or their soul that that are dealing with that right now? Yeah. So I would say, you know, if you're feeling empty or bored or stuff, you're not alone. That is almost the number one complaint that I hear from the vast majority of people that I talk to,

socially, professionally. And I would say, instead of waiting for inspiration or motivation to hit you, put the cart before the horse. So populate your calendar with activities that give you meaning, joy, and pleasure. Start doing that today. When I ask people, what is the number one thing that you enjoy? And when's the last time you did it? A lot of people scratch their head. They're like, oh, really?

I'm important too. I'm a part of this equation. I'm so used to making my employer happy, making my family happy. I forgot to take care of myself. So when you engage in an activity, it begets more productivity. And if you're lost, the simplest place to begin is exercising. There's studies, and I talk about this in the book, of how beneficial exercises to boosting your sense of purpose in life.

So when I hear people, purpose is one of the eight pillars of practical optimism, and it's the first one, it's about having an intensive. It's about having clarity. And it's about giving yourself grace that, you know what? However I got here, this is the path I needed to take. One thing I see a lot of us doing is we're always comparing ourselves to other people, whether it's social media or otherwise. I should have been further along in my career by now.

What's wrong with me? Because success is always going to be a moving target. If we find ourselves, we let's say left one peer group and now, you know, as we succeed, we're now in a new peer group, all of a sudden our reference point changes again. And, you know, you went for millionaire status. let's say the billionaire status, oh my God, now you're an entry level of billionaire. You're the poorest person in that billionaire category. So it never ends. There always be like they say richer and thinner, right, people around you. And so if you can find

something joy and if you cannot find joy or find purpose, it's your job to create it. I'm going to put the burden and the onus back on the person to say, what gives you pleasure, meaning, and joy? When is the last time you did it? And please go home today, populate your calendar. If you're like, you know what, I really love X, Y, and Z, but it doesn't make me any money. I don't care. Your purpose in life does not have to be connected to your paycheck. Your purpose can come from taking care of your family. Your purpose can take care of your elderly mother.

It doesn't have to be. But how great would it be if, like with this concept of Ikega, your mission, your passion, your purpose, your vocation, all of these things do line up. And you do get a paycheck. I mean, I feel so blessed. I think you are the same way that we get to do the things that inspire us, but then are also productive and generative in other ways. Yeah.

Yeah, it's so true. And it's great advice. You know, I want to add on there. Just from my own perspective in that, you know, I think that for a lot of people today, I've seen this, you know, a lot recently. I've seen people like Russell Brand and Jim Carrey, guys like Dion Sanders even, and they've really, really embraced the Christian faith and really gone after growing spiritually because I think they found that, hey, they had everything in Hollywood.

And some of them, I mean, some of them hundreds of millions of dollars, every, you know, every charismatic, you know, friend that they could have around them. And yet they still felt completely empty. And they had a lot, you know, a lot of different things going on. They could do everything from, you know, kiteboarding to, you know, daily massages. And they still felt empty. And so I think also there's an element of embracing your purpose or what you were created for. Like, why do you exist? And who created you?

You know, God. And so really being able to pursue a relationship with God, I think, is something really powerful that's missing from people. And one of the things, when you look at the data, people are becoming less and less religious or attending services. And this could be everything from Christianity to Judaism to, you know, to Islam, to Buddhism. But people generally are attending, are less involved in religious services and more, I would say maybe pursuing something like empty meditation or yoga or some of these other practices,

which I don't know that people are going to find real purpose in just emptying their mind in those things. And so I would love to hear your thoughts on embracing the spiritual because obviously there's a lot of levels of purpose, right? And I agree with you. And I do want to say, I think that for a lot of people today, there's a lot of aimless, wondering aimlessly due to just following culture. By the way, that's never led to success. It's like, if you want to be successful, what are the top 1% do in the area you want to succeed

and study that person, not listening to everybody all at the same time? But I do think there's this element of, of, you know, providing for your family. I mean, that's a, you know, I think about this as a father, and I talk about this pretty often, but it's like, if for me as a dad,

my level of purpose could be, you know, impregnating a woman and then I'm done. Like, I'm still a dad. I'm still a, you know, I'm biologically a father, but there's not a lot of purpose there versus as you're saying, hey, realizing, providing for your family and doing some of the, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I think, that's, a, a, a spiritual component there, is that something that you ever incorporate or recommend people pursuing more of a, you know, faith, religious belief, spirituality when it comes to, you know,

living a more purpose-driven life? Yes. I mean, you know, when I was in medical school and residency, you know, one of the areas that I, a research that I did was looking at the role of spirituality and mental health. And I think for many people it brings a lot of comfort knowing that they're being taken care of on some level, you know, that somebody, that there's a higher power, that somebody loves them, that they have what you would call divine purpose, that they are part of something bigger than themselves, there's a sense of unity and belonging to a larger collective, if you will. So, you know, it's very interesting, like, what was the benefit? Was the benefit going to services? And we definitely know when we compare our happiness levels in the United States,

the just service engagement is down civil engagement in terms of just being involved in the community in any way volunteering, you know, volunteering for a kid's school, that type of thing. Like all of those things gave us social connectedness and it made us feel like we were

we were belonging to something bigger than ourselves. And I feel like that's something that's really missing is that we feel that we're the be-all and end-all. And that's scary for a lot of people to be like, really? It just stops with me or maybe my kids, but like just there isn't the sense of I'm here for a bigger calling. And I look at the work that I do not as a career, but as a calling. And I feel called to a higher purpose to do this, to serve, like to be in service, you know. And I think some people struggle. I think they've had

some not so great experiences in their mind, in their upbringing and maybe with their religious philosophy. So I feel like a lot of people are struggling with that because they're, they're challenging certain ways of thinking and being the way they grew up. And so, you know, if someone is really struggling or challenging or like, you know what, I don't want to find my meaning through religion, then, you know, I respect that. I don't push that. But if I say, if you found comfort in your faith, then that's something that's really beneficial and worth looking into and tapping into. Yeah. Yeah, you know, one of the things that's always inspired me in regards to faith is I look at some of the people that have had the biggest impact

on history. In fact, most of the people, at least in the Western world, and most of them were pretty religious. I mean, very most of them, actually. I mean, everyone from Mother Teresa to, you know, all the way back to, you know, St. Francis, St. Francis of Assisi or a Momonides or Gandhi. I mean, these people were very, very, very in tune with an eternal mindset, a spiritual mindset in terms of the world today. And so there's a quote by C.S. Lewis that says something like this. The people that thought most about the next life are the people that made the biggest impact in this life. And so I love that sort of thought around things. You know, one of the other things I read about you when I was just, I wanted to, you know,

read more about your, you know, the way that you've practiced psychiatry. And I read that you've visited over 50 countries. So I know you're, you know, you're a renowned speaker. You travel all over and speak and lecture, you know, as you have gone to some of these different, you know, countries and experienced different cultures, how is, how is mental health and this perspective on sort of mental well-being here compared to other countries? I want to give you an example here, too. Like, I'm living in Puerto, Chelsea and I, we split time between living in Puerto Rico and Nashville, Tennessee right now. And in Puerto Rico, one of the things that happens on Sundays, and I'm not saying it's 100%, but maybe it's like 98% of families, everybody's extended family

in Puerto Rico gets together on Sundays, and it's a big family day. And sometimes it's tied into even going to a mass or church service or something like that, but they're always doing this lunch and hanging out together on Sundays. And so to me, and you always see them laughing and hanging out together. In fact, when we go to the beach down here, I mean, it is just full of, I mean, just everyone, every family is coming together and hanging out. So, but again, back to the question, what have you learned in visiting all these countries in terms of mental health and well-being? Yes.

You know, I, I, the number one thing that I realize is the emphasis that you're sharing is on family and people and community and spirituality and things that do not cause you to ruminate. They're the antidotes. They call you to come out to hang out. to listen to music, to cook a meal, to spend time intergenerational. Like, that's really key. Like, most other cultures will have grandparents build into the part of the family. So, you know, our older folks aren't neglected and sent away to die.

They're considered like old as gold. And their wisdom is so respected and treasured. And I feel like that helps everybody. There's something called the grandparent effect. And we know that grandparents hanging out with their grandkids benefits both of them, Each person is doing better intellectually. The child is better academically, cognitively, socially. We forget that parents, young parents raising young families, are often busy and they're

just trying to get through the day. The grandparents come in and they're like, hey, I can teach a thing or two. Or just having that wisdom and that perspective of somebody who's lived through life and having another member in your family that loves and cares about you that can tend to maybe a different aspect of your growth emotionally, academically. my parents have taught my kids Hindi and about immune religion and language. My dad being a child psychiatrist is also fascinated by children and math and chess and all these things that I'm like, I wish I had more time to pay attention to. So giving them a bit of their history and their culture

and their identity as people and as family. So definitely the family component. When I was in medical school, I was working in a government hospital in India. I did a way study in the United States, I've born and raised here, but I've spent a lot of time in India throughout the years. And I was struck that in this government hospital, this was a New Delhi, it was a very prestigious hospital and it had like tertiary care and had all the best specialists and the best minds in the world, but they were providing care to very poor individuals who would come from all over India. And you would see illnesses that you would only read in the book. Like if you had like leprosy or like TB causing all kinds of disformation in the body,

you know, in the United States, it would get caught very early, whatever the illness was and somebody would get treated. And so their body wouldn't be so disfigured or they wouldn't be this ill. So it had very ill people coming. But by the bedside, no patient was ever left alone, even for a minute. They had three to four family members camping by the bedside, sleeping on the floor, but they were taken care of. They were taking care of each other. And I'm seeing that I've been traveling to India my whole life and I can see that as it becomes more urbanized, you're losing those family connections. People are moving away from the home. They're living in big cities. And they aren't as sort of warm and fuzzy.

the way that they used to be and older parents are, you know, being left behind. So that kind of makes me sad is the intergenerational aspect is in the big part and the emphasis on family, civic, religious, all of that community. You know, I was doing an episode recently on, which I got some flack for. And I understand why, but also I tried to have a level of, I have a great compassion for this. And it was on daycare. And how just sharing the research, I was just sharing a medical study on daycare and how, you know, especially between the ages of, you know, one and five, how daycare tends to increase ADHD and certain other issues, behavioral issues within children and their future.

And so I had a lot of people say to me, moms who were like, are you trying to make me feel guilty? I said, no, I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty. I just wanted to share a study so everybody can be really aware of. Basically, it just said, the more time with the parents, the better. I mean, that should just be common sense. But another thing that was interesting in the study is that they went in and they said, one of the issues is when you have kids in daycare and the parents can't be around,

well, kids are learning from other kids almost solely or a good majority of the time versus if they have someone older, someone older, there's a calmness to their spirit. There's a level of wisdom there. And so that helps reset the children. And so having that balance of it's not to say you couldn't do a couple hours or some, but less tended to be better. And I actually think about having, you know, sages and grandparents and those mentors in our lives in the same way. You know, I think that, you know, when I think about my grandfather, he passed away years ago,

but he was 96th, World War II veteran. He just had this incredibly spiritual man, but he was so calm and steady and in the midst of chaos. And so if my parents were going through a hard time or I was, he was sort of that stuptial. steady hand, calming, would pray for you, would talk to you, would listen. And I even have in-laws that are like that right now. It's just a real blessing. But anyways, just to say, like, I can see, like, I can both see it in the studies, but I also can feel it in my own life, the importance of having those people in our lives. And so I just wanted to say, I mean, that's a, it's such a great point you bring up there. Yes. And you know what's interesting is that when

you have jobs, like, that have, let's say, built-in daycare. So I remember when I was working at the hospital a lot of times, you know, they had a room where like the kids would go and then the moms could see the children in the afternoon during their lunch break. Yeah. You know, and that's why I think it's a whole other issue, but like the more you recognize early development and the importance of that attachment period and allowing mothers who may want to work during that time, but giving them facility, giving them time off to be with the kids and not feeling like I have to choose between career and family.

You know, and I think we're moving in that direction, but the other thing that I see is a lot about European, Scandinavian countries that do offer this sense of, you know, your job is solid. Don't worry. Go take a year off. Go take two years off. Your job will be here. The pay will be here. There's a little bit more of a built-in safety net.

And that's why the European countries are in the top 10, top 15 of the World Happiness Index. And the United States never is, even though we're GNP, GDP, number one, number two. We're falling on the list of happiness because we're not providing people to help when they need it most. Well, it all comes down to priorities, right? And so you get what you focus on. we get money because that's what we focus on, right? I mean, that's sort of the, you know, the liver die of America is on that. And, you know, and if we think about what's going to lead to greater happiness, as you said,

it's, you know, right now when somebody is deciding to move, you know, or where they're going to live, right? There's a lot of decisions. Career is probably number one for most people. Now, I think for others, it might be family or their community, right? Because to me, if I think about right now why I love Nashville where we're at, I love Nashville because of the community there. Like the people, I absolutely love it.

And of course, weather is another big one, right? There could be government and freedom and the state. But I do think that level of sort of community being involved in that way and faith could even fall in that. But I think if you're going to move somewhere and be happy and thrive, as you mentioned, you mentioned this about just a little bit ago. But, you know, the people you surround yourself with is the most. important, if not one of the top, you know, factors for that.

Yes. And so you know what I would say to that is like for somebody, let's say someone's like, you know, I'm in my 20s or a third year old at any age and they're like, I need to make a financial decision and I need to move. I would say if you're choosing, prioritizing money or career, let number two right behind it be community. And wherever you go to set that up immediately. So like, okay, I'm taking a hit.

I'm leaving my friends and my family's behind. but wherever I go, I'm going to make that effort to be that person to be like, let's have that, you know, get together, happy hour, even if you don't drink the mocktails, you know, bring them out. But something like that charity, race with your company, whatever you can do to embed yourself in the next community that you go in. But don't let that fall to the wayside. I see a lot of people put their friendships on the back burner. And that happens, especially with young families because they're just like, I'm too busy. I'm just trying to get through the day. I don't have time.

We look at friendships as a luxury. And we really need to look at it as a necessity. something that is protective for our health. Yeah, that's so good. You know, if you are prescribed, and you did this earlier a little bit, you went into movement and mindfulness and some of those other aspects of boosting our mental health. Are there any other things you recommend that you've really found through your studies that really help us?

And I want to relate into this. You know, there is a, there's a book out there today. And I want to say it's by Jonathan. hand. I think he's at NYU. And you, and I think I read, you're at NYU, or we talked about that, but, but I think it's called the coddling of the American mind. And a lot of people today, like, I think I talked about my grandfather earlier. Both of my grandfathers were in the Navy. My dad was in Vietnam. They're all, I mean, so they're very, you know, they're resilient people, incredibly resilient. But I look at the mindset, too, of a lot of our culture today. And it's about sort of creating more of a

softness around people and there's a lot more coddling going on, which I think can lead to a level of weakness. What are your thoughts on how someone can build more resilience and strength of mind in today's culture that I think actually tends to train us to be soft rather than resilient? Yes. I think the one thing to keep in mind, and again, this might be controversial for parents, but to allow your kid to have a little bit of struggle and that's okay. You know, like my parents told me growing up, I had my first job when I was 11 years old teaching him be with my mom. And then, you know, I've had multiple jobs working in fast food and clothing and retail and all sorts of things. And I feel like that lost.

One piece of advice that I heard that I was like, oh, wow, I love the way it was phrase. It was like, let your kid work at the local pharmacy and stock shelves. Let them flip burgers. And instead, we're putting so much pressure on our kids to go to that Ivy League school, which most of them are not going to get into. I hate to say it. The reality is it's too expensive, you know, it's not. 90,000 to 100,000 a year for some of these schools. And it's so competitive and so cutthroat and the best of the best minds aren't getting in.

And we're defining success as getting into these elite institutions. And so we're depriving our kids of these natural built-in opportunities to learn about the world by through what many parents considered, quote, you know, unemployment that, you know, they could be studying for their SATs instead and let them get tutoring and let them be three-season athletes, which I'm a believer, like, let your kid do achieve in that way. But then they grow up and sometimes they grow up to be entitled people because they're like, wait, mom and dad have bailed me out. They have paid for everything my entire life. What do you mean I'm not getting the promotion? And then they become my patients at age 25 to 35 when they're like a rude awakening.

They're thrown on their butt because the boss is like, I'm sorry. You know, your Harvard butt is not going to just keep getting promoted, you know, just because you have a great title or whatever it is. Like you've got to prove your own worth. And so grit is about going through difficult time. and it's about navigating them and navigating hardship, navigating challenges. And you were talking about this with your health and how do you come on the other side of it?

And I feel like sometimes life will throw us, you know, lemon, right? And that was actually one of the questions my medical school interviewer had asked me because he looked at my resume. He's like, you had a lot of jobs. And you know, like more than the average person applying to my school explain this. And I was like, my parents told me very early on, you know, they had mean.

They were both super educated and did quite well here. but they were like, we want you guys to learn the value of money and to kind of do something and support yourself. So then it was a psychiatrist interviewing me and he was like, so, you know, life gave you lemon. What did you do? And I was like, I made lemonade. And interestingly, Josh, that is on the cover of my book, The Lemonade. You know, it's the lemon with the straw in there, but with the umbrella because it's like, you're not just going to drink lemonade. We're going to make the lemonade a party. We're going to make it festive. Like it's not just going from, and that's how I practice in my work. It's not just taking a person who comes in, let's say they're feeling in a state

of dysfunction to function. I want to take them from functional to optimal. So I do think that when you're talking about the new generation, we can't make things too easy. We have to let them fall a little bit, not in a major way, but let them learn from their own mistakes, guide them, steer them in the right direction, but do let them make a little bit of their own mistakes because they're really missing the opportunity to negotiate conflict, like most of their text messages or three letters, IDK, ID, you know, it's like they're not having conversations, they're not negotiating conflict in person, they're breaking up with each other over text messages, if that. So giving them hardship and challenge within reason, within reason.

It's a great. And this is such an important job of parents, right? It's like, it's this balance of nurture and challenge, right? It's this sort of more motherly instincts of, I'm going to love you, be kind and, like, hold you. But also at the same time, it's more of this other side of it's like, hey, you need to do hard things because muscles and mindset don't grow unless you do hard things. Absolutely. And I'm a mother myself and Josh, this is so hard. Like I deal with this every single day between I want things

to be comfortable for you, but I don't want them to be too easy, you know, and it's this delicate balance. And I remember when I delivered my first kid, I remember looking at him, my son, and I was like, the three things that came to my mind, I want to love, guide, and protect you. And in my mind, the protection is, okay, that's where they're making things easy, putting too many guardrails for them. But then the guidance in my mind meant I'm going to push you. I'm going to put you out in the world and I'm going to make you slightly uncomfortable. So you have to figure things out. And, you know, my son is now 12 and we've not given him a phone yet.

And everyone in this class has had a phone for at least a year or two years or maybe more. And, you know, we're like, all right, how do we figure this out so that you don't end up entitled that the world owes you things, you know, just because. Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. You know, I saw this, there's a question that gets asked a lot in entrepreneurial circles by millionaires or billionaires. And I've seen it kind of go both ways where there's the question. The question is, are you going to pass on your wealth to your kids?

And it's really kind of, I don't want to say it's split because it's not quite split. It probably leans heavier one way. But there are many saying, yeah, anything I have, I'm giving my kids. There's another group saying, no, I won't give my kids. kids a single dollar. And I haven't been asked that question before, but I've thought about it. And my answer to that would be, I don't, I'm open to, I'm really open to both, but I think it's more, are my kids capable of being able to handle that and will it give them the best life, right? I think if I raise this sort of child the way that I hope to, and they are incredibly responsible

and generous people and have a high level of virtue, then comparing giving that to someone else versus them, I'd rather them have the money because I believe they're going to do better things with it. But if I raise my kid up and I see them being entitled and spoiled, I know by giving them that money will actually make their life worse and the lives of others worse. So then I wouldn't.

And so anyways, I'm curious if you have thoughts on that as well because I've seen a lot of people already deciding maybe before their kids grow up on that. But I think really maybe there's a level of it should be dependent upon the kid. Yes, yes, I believe so, depending on the kid. And then also, you know, that whole idea of you give a person a fish versus you teach them how to fish. And I feel like that's our job is to make them in an ideal world, what I want for my kids, obviously it's to be healthy, happy, but self-sufficient.

You know, like I feel like I'm in a great place in my life today professionally, personally, and it was because my parents encouraged that from a very early age. And, you know, we never talked about, okay, well, what would happen if I needed help, right, like financially otherwise? It wasn't even an option in my mind. And like maybe one could say, maybe it would have helped if your parents said, you know, if you were financially struggling, we will help you. But still, we want you to go out on your own. I never even had that thought. I just was like, all right, I got to do this myself. And it made me the person that I am today, which is not entitled.

I don't expect anyone to give me anything. And so that pushes me every day to show up 150 percent to do my best. And not to say that I don't have the right to ask for what I deserve. Like that's something I definitely struggled with. And I talk about it in the book about like, you know, I'm not. saying me first. I'm just saying me too. Like I get, I want a seat at the table, right? But at the same time, I feel like a lot of people miss that opportunity to really learn how to do something themselves, in which case like that, I don't, I don't feel good about just giving something to someone who has no

value. So my kids understand the value. When they see dad and mom work, they, you know, they look at up and they're like, we want to be like you. Like you raise the bar high. You have like standards. And we value the time. So, you know, somebody, if I gave something to someone that was a, you know, one of the kids and they lost it, I'm like, you know, I'm not going to replace it immediately. I want you to think about what went into this, you know, and like the whole money doesn't grow on trees. So call me a little old school, you know, I think I still have, and seeing my parents interact, like, I definitely see that ethic where my dad's like, don't make things too easy for them. And I'm just like, oh, dad, please, you know, because I have my childhood, like I joke PTSD coming back in,

but I also see the worth and the value of making things a little tough. So it's, yes, it's a delicate balance. I think that every parent has to navigate themselves. But John, one thing that I think that parents might be doing a disservice is they're trying to be their kid's friend. And that's a problem because then you're blaring the lines and you're too afraid to create healthy

boundaries and kids want boundaries. You know, I always tell my kid, like, you don't see it now, but you'll understand and you'll respect me later. And my son actually said both of them that we understand why you're doing this. I'm not happy about it. And in the moment, he might be like, yeah, and you know, talk back or whatever, but then he'll always come back

me the next day to be like, I respect you for doing this because I know you're doing it in my best interest. And I know as he gets older, it's probably going to be harder because the adolescent brain as it develops, it wants freedom. It wants to push against. I know I did push against all boundaries. But I think stop trying to be your kid's friend is probably one piece of advice. I'd say, you know, that's not your job. We've got plenty of friends. They want, they want guidance. Every young person I'm talking to today and the work that I do, I go out in the media and public talks, and I meet a lot of young people in the early 20s. They're starting out.

And they'll ask me and they'll say to me, we need guidance. We need help. So that's what parents need to remember. That's their role. That's so good. That's so good. What's your last piece of advice for everybody when you think about, hey, here's the one thing you need to start doing right now

to build up this sort of powerful, positive mindset? You know, really tap into your sense of agency and say, I have the capacity to live this amazing life. Now I need to just put blinders on and forget about what everyone else is doing and forget about anyone else's timeline and just say, you know what, I'm going to put my head down into something that really drives me and makes my heart sing. That gives me value. You know, like Einstein said, seek not to be a person of success, but rather a person of value. And I think that's so important is where do you bring value to yourself and to others? And then that, everything else I feel like

then falls into place. If you're chasing the money or the dollar or the end, It's not going to work. So, you know, to me, optimism is a practice. You don't have to be born with it. But it is something, a skill set, a tool set, an action set, a mindset that helps you turn positive outlooks into positive outcomes by doing the work and by showing up. That's so powerful. I want to encourage you everybody.

Check out Dr. Sue's new book. It's called Practical Optimism. If you want to build a resilient mindset and be your best, it's important to be optimistic. as she talked about these early studies, I mean, you know, people that have this positive optimism and mindset are oftentimes 40% more successful, live longer, less heart attacks, much better health. And so it's really important that we are able to foster this sort of mindset. The book is fantastic. She goes through step by step exactly how to build that positive perseverance and that mindset.

Because in one of the other things, too, it's not in the way of we talked about this toxic positivity. it's doing it the right way to experience great success in your life. So I encourage everybody check out her new book here as well. And Dr. Sue, I want to say thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure having you. I know that you, again, have been torn all over the world. So thanks so much for taking the time to share some of your wisdom with us today. Thank you so much for having me.

I so respect the work you do. And congratulations and best wishes for your book on. Well, hey, thanks so much. And, hey, just want to thanks to thank everybody who's listening and tuning in now to the Dr. Josh Hacks podcast. Remember, each and every week, we're diving deep into the science and principles behind how to grow in body, mind, and spirit, and take your health and your life to the next level. Hey, if you're not subscribed, make sure to subscribe, like, and share.

And remember, when you subscribe, we're getting more reviews, and that allows me to bring on better and better guests like Dr. Sue and others who are going to share their wisdom with you. Thanks so much for watching. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back with another episode next week. You know.