The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 024 - Menopause & West Midlands Police - Yvonne Bruton & Dr Louise Newson

Episode Date: November 19, 2019

In this episode, Dr Louise Newson chats to Yvonne Bruton, a chief inspector at West Midlands Police who currently heads up the Violence Reduction Unit. Yvonne is also the chair of her Women in Policing association. Dr Newson and Yvonne have worked closely in the past and shared a journey over the last few years; Dr Newson has shared her passion and expertise and Yvonne has shared the problems that are experienced, not only by women in the workplace, but also by trying to design organisational responses to these within a challenging working environment! Policing is about improving people’s lives and protecting them from harm – but they need to look after the workforce to enable them to get out there and do that. Dr Newson has helped support and champion the work that West Midlands Police have been doing with menopause in the workplace and in this podcast they discuss Yvonne's inspirational work and how other organisation's can follow their lead.  Yvonne's Three Take Home Tips for Menopause Support at Work: Find someone to talk to - that could be a colleague experiencing similar problems or a peer support group. Find an organisational advocate within your workplace. Don't be afraid to make noise! 

Welcome to the Newsome Health Menopause podcast. I'm Dr Louise Newsom, a GP and menopause specialist, and I run the Newsome Health Menopause and Well-Being Centre here in Stratford-upon-Avon. Today I'm delighted to have Yvonne Bruton here, who I first met a few years ago when I was doing some work with the West Midlands Police. So good morning, Yvonne. Good morning. I was trying to work out just before we switched to record what you're,

actual official title is and it changes quite a lot. Yes. And it's quite a mouthful. So could you explain what you do? Of course. So I'm a Chief Inspector in West Midlands Police. My role at the moment is I'm the strategic lead in our violence reduction unit. So that's some of the challenges around reducing knife crime, youth violence, but across the whole

vulnerability violence exploitation arena, my whole four weeks in, don't yet know what I'm doing, but I will do. It's a huge job. It's massive. Yeah. It's really exciting, but it's daunting. because there's a huge amount of real expectation on it and we are a bit like we were just saying, you know, saving lives. The potential to make a huge difference.

Massive. Yeah. And what's exciting is it's longer term and its partnership and it's prevention based. Yeah. Which I think could be a real sort of step change in how we do stuff. Absolutely. And I think prevention is key, not just for your work, but, you know, for my work as well as a doctor, if we can prevent disease, if we can. disease if we can prevent incidents if we can prevent knife crime isn't that better than just

being reactive so the whole approach is they call it the public health approach which is taking that prevention our little strapline is violence is preventable yes inevitable and actually you go oh yeah okay let's stop just assuming it happens we can do something about it she's really important isn't it so we'll come back to that in a bit because there's some analogies I think with the menopause but people might be listening thinking well why have I got you I mean telling to talk about knife crime and we're talking about the men of course. So that's the sort of the day job, for one of a word. But I've, for the last five years, been chair of our Women in Policing Association.

So that's a staff network. There's one in every police force. But that's just around understanding the impact of women who are still underrepresented in the police service. So whilst the numbers are around 30%, that's quite a lot, 30%. What did it used to be? Not, but it's been 30% for a long, long time. And actually the ambition of police. thing is to represent the communities we serve and that's across the whole spectrum so clearly there's a

huge challenge around ethnicity and representing our communities but it's really interesting because you go yeah 50% of the world are women so why aren't we aiming for 50% of the police service to be women which is a slightly different conversation but so my role as as chair of women in policing has been to look at issues such as representation such as recruitment such as promotion and progression and there's a really interesting link around that sort of glass ceiling and potentially the menopause, which I think is a little bit under research potentially. But we also look at, you know, maternity issues, flexible working and part time and how that impacts. And it was then sort of through that work that we became aware really of the challenges around the menopause, menopause in the

workplace, and how absolutely nothing was being done or spoken about. So, and that's where I just got a little bit, hang on a minute, we've got all these women working. in the organisation, it's a hard enough job, whether it's police officer or police staff. It's hard being in the minority. And then when you add to that older and going through the menopause, I just got this real feeling that we need the voice of these women. And how do we make sure they're feeling included in the organisation? So they stop worrying about other issues and can concentrate on delivering policing.

Yeah. And had you thought about that? Say 10 years ago, if I'd met you, would you have thought anything about the menopause? Not in the slightest. So it certainly wasn't personally on my radar. It wasn't on the radar of the organisation of the organisation as every other organisation. But from honest, it wasn't on the radar particularly of women in policing. Because even within that group where it was maternity and part-time and recruitment and retention, I don't know that we'd ever even considered it. It was only probably just before we got in touch because we sort of met you quite early on the journey within women in policing. So probably only for the last three or four years, I'd have said. And before that, you're right, nothing. No. And do you know what percentage, when you say there's 30% of women, does the percentage reduce as women get older?

Do you think more women are leaving police in their 50s? So I think generally, because within policing, when you sign up, or certainly a few years ago when I joined, you signed up for 30 years. Right. So actually a lot of people would join at the age of 18 to 20. And they would naturally. And they would naturally.

So I'm not sure that we've necessarily been alert to it. maybe that's one of the reasons why we haven't picked it up sooner. There used to be a bit of a drop off after maternity leave. I mean, gosh, 50 years ago, you weren't allowed to be married. So if you wanted to be married, you sort of, you left. Then if you had children, you had to leave and you come back, and there weren't any of the accommodations. And it was interesting because it was in our menopause support group

that that first dawned on me. And it was one of the ladies there. I've got 28, 29 years service. You know, when I joined, you were only just allowed to stay married. Then when I first had my kids, I was the one who had to sort of fight to come back and have the... And now I've got to the end of my service, I'm the one who's fighting. And that felt quite, you know, quite impactful, really, that these women, the pioneers and all of that. We're having to break down these barriers through their own generation.

For their own experiences. And hopefully in another generation, it's not going to be like that. Yeah. I mean, it's slow, isn't it, with the menopause? It's horrendously slow. And I think it struck me when I first did a first meeting, well, There's lots of things that struck me really. I had no idea that so many police naturally, like you say, left at 50. But then when I spoke to him, because I was thinking naively, oh, how lovely. If you retire at 50, they've got this whole life ahead of you where you can enjoy your retirement.

Some of them go abroad, whatever. But then when I was speaking to, some of them, they said, oh, gosh, no, I just sit on the sofa all day. My joints are stiff. My memory's gone. I can't play with my grandkids. I'm not actually enjoying myself. And they've put 30 years into your serving. Well, that's right.

And the only thing I will just say, because the passion for me is about being inclusive with police officers and police staff. So we do have police staff who stay longer. So actually, in terms of the population within the organisation, more of the older are police staff rather than police officers. So actually, but I think that says something about the voice and power of them. Because culturally, police staff have been considered as sort of almost second class to police officers. Again, I think that's changing. but it is one of those cultural bits we have to keep an eye on

and actually now most of our menopause work is driven by police staff and they do able to represent and speak for that broader so whilst there's a challenge in being operational police officers having to wear the stab proof so you know some of the colleagues saying

I'm having a hot flush and I'm answering a 999 call and the blue lights and the two tones are going and I've got my stab proof on and all I want to do is pull over and rip everything off so there are some challenges and we've got PCSOs,

police community support officers who are operational. But actually we do have lots of people who work in a huge range of important functions. That might be answering 999 calls. That might be the dispatcher on the radio. So some real critical roles who are police staff who do stay longer.

Stay longer, yeah. But I think when I was talking to some of these people and they thought they were feeling like this because they had left a community. You know, they've been working somewhere 30 years, you're all really close. It's a great environment. And suddenly they're on there,

own but actually once I started talking about the menopause they had no idea that those symptoms were related and well I think that's one of the biggest that certainly I've learned personally but within the organisation so when the team did the research we'd signed that beautiful poster which was the outline of a woman's shape and listed all of the symptoms and there's 70 odd issue I'm sure you'll correct me but you suddenly go oh my goodness I hadn't realised and you suddenly go oh what if women have one of them and a bit of that and a bit of that might not have thought and Certainly that was one of the really key things I think you brought in for us that knowledge and that evidence base. And, you know, with your medical background in the nice that we could rely on you that it was, you know, going to be, and we got that information, which was massive.

It was quite interesting, as I was with, as you know, the West Miner's Police before, it was a year really, wasn't it? Yeah. I did, what, half a day a month. So it was a very small amount. And I remember coming to the first meeting and you have this menopause unit there of women coming, which is quite unusual for company anyway, isn't it? And but I remember going to the front desk and signing in and, you know, I'm always proud of being a menopause doctor and I said, oh, I'm here for the menopause meeting. And yeah, people just laughed. I bet the looks you got all right. So I think, okay, so I signed in and I came to the room with lovely women. And I do remember saying to you, I cannot help you with policies. I know nothing about business or organizational structure. All I can do is talk about the menopause because that's what I do every day. And so then I came and I gave my usual presentation about. what the menopause is, what the symptoms can be, how symptoms can change with time and

between different women, but also about the health risks of the menopause. So there's risks of osteoporosis, heart disease, diabetes if we don't have hormones in our body. And also about early menopause. So one in a hundred women under the age of 41 and 1,000 under the age of 30. And it was great even that first meeting there were a couple of younger women there, weren't there? I said because we've had that quite a lot. Absolutely. And wouldn't it be something I'd have thought of and it was through that so our menopause support group has as an amazing impact because it's peer driven and prayer led so it's women getting themselves together so there's a little bit that we just give them the space I won't say just but you know they don't need much more than

space and encouragement they need the just you know like you say the space that's confidential for them is a way but they've been allowed to go to it which I think is really important isn't it and sharing the information so I mean I think your impact on the work we do was quite transformational. So whilst you say, oh, I don't know about policies, actually you were then allowed us to shine a light on. So we've listened and sort of go, oh, okay, gosh, haven't thought of that we now need to go and look at.

But as I say, I also think that you are a force of nature, clearly, but you're able to take you to our head of people and organisational development and some of our senior staff to sort of go, and you were able to speak with that credibility with the evidence base to be able to say medically, here's the, information allowed us as an organisation to be able to go, oh, this is a wellbeing issue. Absolutely. This is a medical.

This is going to affect attendance in our organisation as well as the mental health. And I know we've, you know, we've had lots of chats around that. Because as I said, we want our police staff and officers to be at work doing the job keeping community safe, not sat at home feeling anxious just because they don't have the information they need. And I think that's where I got a bit, oh my God, this isn't that difficult then. Yes. No. We just need to join all those things up. Yeah, and it's huge, isn't it? I think a few years

ago before I was doing so much menopause work, I used to think, oh, menopause are women. Just give them a fan. They'll be fine. And I'm so, feel so embarrassed that I even thought like that because, as you know, some of the research that we did at West Midlands Police looking at the effect of the menopause and workplace, a couple of really important things we teased out. For me, the main one is that the top three symptoms affecting those women at work, which I'm sure is the same for lots of women is symptoms related to fatigue, anxiety, memory problems. So a fan or a change in air conditioning is not going to change or help them. So that's really key.

And probably even more importantly was the figure that 78% of those women questioned did not realise they were menopausal until they were given information. And I think exactly. I think that was that huge learning. That was that poster. That was that the 70. And then suddenly people are able to go, well blimey didn't realize that

and I think the other thing that we unlocked and again it sounds obvious but was about the men so we've got a huge organisation or you know a huge number of men in the organisation and so many of them had come up to me and go thank you so much with what you're doing can I have a leaflet to take home

so whether it's women in within West Midd it's equally important for the men within West Midlands police so that they can you know I sort of have a bit of a if you live with a woman or work with a woman or you supervise a woman or are supervised by everyone, oh, that's everyone then. Yes, so you all need to.

So you all need to at least be aware of it's absolutely key. And we did some really great workshops, didn't we, with Laughology, a company that they educate through, they've got stand-up comedians. And it's what their sort of motto is, is if you're happy, you're more likely to learn. Yes. And so it wasn't making fun of the menopause.

So I say it was great. We were laughing at the same time as learning, not laughing about it. Absolutely. And it was, we had a few tears as well when people realized. And often what happens at some of these, events is that women go often because they're line managers and they don't even think about their own experience and then they start to hear about some of the 70 symptoms or I think recently

I read 86 but the thing is our hormones estrogen and also testosterone in our bodies get everywhere where our cells respond to them so in our brains and our muscles in our joints in our bladders in our hearts you know even in our nostrils so you can get symptoms everywhere so they can range from sort of the low mood anxiety depressive symptoms to bladder symptoms, joint pains, muscle, aches, even dry mouth, dry eyes. You know, it really can affect. And so once you start, we were drawing this menopause, a woman, weren't we? And everyone was saying what they thought.

And then there's always a few people who become withdrawn, even tearful, because they're realizing that's then. But they didn't realize. Yeah. And it's really important that people know, like you say, men and women, because when you look at sickness record, a lot of these women are being signed off with depression or migraines or anxiety and then they're made to feel they sort of feel like failures because it's quite hard isn't it to say you know and then there's sort of stigma

and you think oh gosh would I want that person being promoted because they've been off for a year with depression and actually they're not depressed they are menopausal. I'm doing some of the stories so I've sort of sat in the support group you know and a woman saying I've been 28 years I'm a you know specialist in my field I work in I think it was intelligence, but you know, in a real, quite a niche thing and then going, and actually then now the team are taking the mic out of me because I'm forgetting my words and I can't finish my centre. And it was heartbreaking. And you could see that leading to that loss of self-confidence and then all of the other bits that sort of come on. So there was something

really powerful about being able to help women identify all of those symptoms and then be able to go, you know, it's not hopeless, here's some basic information because I think there was a huge change with just people being able to oh oh I might be menopause? It's that night bell moment isn't it? Yeah and then in terms of the extent of their symptoms and what's support and help and you gave his loads of help around

okay so not all GPs are yet on the right page but here's a letter you can give to them here's a book that you know or if you need more specialist you sort of know to see women directly. It's really important certainly when talking to a lot of these women they're certainly on the first meeting and they would share their experience. And I think probably only one of them was on HRT. There's quite a few

who were too scared to take it. And most of the others were taking antidepressants. And I obviously go around a lot demystifying HRT, as you know, because I feel that the media have got it wrong. Some of the medical press have got it wrong. And for the majority of women, the benefits of taking HRT outweigh any risks, especially the body identical hormones, so the same molecular structure as the ones we produce, which are available on the NHS, can really be. make a difference, not just to symptoms, but reduce future risk of these diseases we mentioned, such as heart disease and osteoporosis. And what was interesting for me, coming in and out over the year, was some of these women then started to fight back against their antidepressants

and get HRT. And once they did, like a lot of women I seem to speak to, fail so much better, and then they stop their antidepressants. As I said, you know, I suppose to some extent your gift, which sounds a bit corny, but, you know, was that information? So I hadn't stopped to think about HR too And, you know, lots of colleagues And they're suddenly, oh, okay, So you gave or enabled us to get information By which you can then make decisions

So yes, whilst there may be risks And there may be, you know, some scientific research Actually, there are risks of not And there's the risk of not having the hormones And I remember reading several things going, you know, why don't we hear this side? So even just, and I know you sort of put it in touch with some leaflets and information

that then just said, these are the things you need to consider if you're thinking about it. And that was a huge leap forward. Because then I think all of those sort of misconceptions and prejudices, you're at least able to go, actually, I know a bit more to go. I can go and ask the questions. Well, I think it's having the confidence, isn't it? And certainly all the menopause guidelines talk about women having individualised care. And certainly as a doctor, even if women were, for example, diabetic or had heart disease,

anything, women and men need to have an individualised consultation. because it depends on their choice as well. If they're of some mind consenting adults, then they are allowed to make a reasonable choice as long as they're aware of any potential risks and benefits as well. And medicine is shifting. We're less paternalistic. We shouldn't be saying, here we're on,

have this green sip of paper your prescription or off you go. It needs to be shared. You need to tell me your concerns. We need to talk and discuss and have this joint decision-making process. Well, and I think that was the point that if you don't know anything about it and your GP says, oh, no, HRT is not good or this won't work. Why would you challenge that? Because you just, oh, you're the doctor.

Well, yeah, absolutely. Whereas if you then have got a little bit, oh, hang on a second, doctor. I've read this leaf, I've heard this and what about. And I think there's a big bit that puts you back a little bit more in control. Yeah, and the women feel good about it. I think once they've got the knowledge, and like you mentioned, we did a letter. So if any of you were interested, if you search letter on my menopause doctor website, there's this letter.

and if a doctors have refused HRT for a reason that doesn't seem right, rather than challenge, because it's very hard to challenge another healthcare professional. Especially when you're feeling vulnerable. It's really difficult. So then you can download the letter and it really basically says, I just want another consultation to discuss why you've refused HRT. I've read the nice guidelines. I've been on my website.

And could we have another consultation because you are a great doctor? Because it's not about doctor's ability. as you know and I know GP and nurses and healthcare professionals education of the menopause is poor I didn't get any structured training as an undergraduate or postgraduate and actually for all the women that use the letter

it's worked hasn't it? And they've had really great consultation But I think it also, it is that empowering them and that's one of the most important things I think about the work we've been doing is allow women and sometimes men but you know to come in to share their stories with each other and a little bit of camaraderie

So there's a, they've got a closed Facebook page where, oh, and have we hooted about the magnets in your pants sticking to the troll? You know, silly things. But have you tried this? What about? And have that opportunity. But then also allowing them to explore, oh, hang on, what can we do about this? The we might be the organisation as their employer. The we might be the group.

Well, actually, should we, you know, can we? And I know when, you know, well, let's get Louise back in and we'll have another session on this. Or is it what, what can I as an individual do? Well, actually, I can take a bit of responsibility. I can read your website or the booklets. And actually, I can maybe go back and have another conversation. And I think on all those three levels, that's made a significant shift mentally psychologically

to people being able to feel like, okay, I can get through this. I can, you know. And I think there's been a bit of backstabbing, hasn't there, about menopause in the workplace, certainly some of the media work that I've done. It's been sort of understood and misreported where people are saying, well, why should be? women declare that their menopause are in their office. Surely it's private and, you know,

there was something about having a quiet room for menopause. Well, why would you do that? But actually, I think what the police did very well and still do very well is about giving women a choice. So some women, they want to dip in privately, read the information, and go away privately and that's perfect. So I've spoken to colleagues who sort of go, I don't know why you're talking about this because it's very private and I don't want to share it with anybody. We're absolutely 100% respect your view But for those who need somehow Or want to come in and talk about it

They should have the ability And I always sort of say, you know We have so new parents, moms or dads They're coming in oh, did you get any sleep last night And it's a great chat Because everybody knows those first six, 12 months Whether a baby slept or not And if you come into work tired

You want to be able to go God I've been up half the night I'm shattered Can you just make tolerances for me? We had one of the ladies at the support group who sort of said, you know, I've been up five times, I've changed the bed five times, and I'm sitting there going, oh my goodness. And then poor, hubby's been chopped out of bed five times.

He's coming into work and he's going to be shattered. And yet none of them are able to say, I've had a terrible night's sleep because I'm going through something. It's very natural that every woman on the planet goes through. So that's where I just get a bit. Yeah. But it is interesting. I know lovely Dave Thompson, the chief constable,

so I first met him at dinner actually. and I went up to him, but I missed my train because I was talking to him and he looked like a bit of a scared rabbit as I was talking all about the menopause. And I don't think I was talking about vaginal dryness, but I was really talking a lot. And I didn't know who he was. So I knew he was important. And I could see at the corner of my eye, you laughing, thinking, Louise, come down. And then I met him a few weeks later.

I was holding an event and he had just come out of the same room. And I said, Tim, where are you off to now? because I think you should come and listen to my lecture. And he said, oh, no, Louise, I've got a meeting in half an hour. I said, well, that's great. Come for half an hour. And he was really, you remember, he was really embarrassed. He sat at the edge.

And it was all about menopause in the workplace, what the symptoms, everything else. And Dave's done a lot of work with well-being, hasn't he, from Manchester, come down. And I could see him sitting forward as I was talking. He was massively. Really engaged. And actually, he, I think he missed his next meeting because he stayed. Yes, he did, he did, didn't he? He phoned them in rear-age because he was so.

And he then actually apologised a bit and said he had no idea. He had no idea about the effect on mental health, on physical health. Even this increased risk of osteoporosis, and he's saying, well, quite rightly, if we're employing women for longer and they've got a risk of heart disease, they've got a risk of diabetes, surely anything that reduces that in the whole well-being. And actually, I know I talk a lot about HRT, but it is about diet and exercise and mindfulness and meditation and sleep and relaxation, whatever works for you. But it's really important that women, and especially menopause or women, have that whole platform.

And so for a company to provide care for well-being, the menopause is part of that as well. So he's really taken it on. So he's been a great sort of champion. So he very much sort of says, look, you go and do what needs to do, but we as an organisation will support. So certainly supporting the women in policing network, but through our occupational health, our wellbeing manager, through our sort of HR function, everyone sort of, there's a little bit about, what should we do? What can we do? So don't get me wrong, there's still lots to do. And we've got lots of competing priorities as of every organisation. But I do think that Dave's

been really key in helping us get it on the agenda. Certainly helping us as West Mids, blazed a bit of a trail and certainly working with you. We've had lots of opportunities to just share what we're doing. And don't get me wrong, there's practice we can learn from other people. There's lots of things we need to get better at, but I do feel we've started a conversation. I think you're ahead of the game, aren't you? I think West Midlands Police have been hugely supportive, which I'm very grateful for, of my work, but they've driven it, like you say, a lot by themselves. So it's not cost them huge amounts of money.

It's nothing fancy. We've, you know, done some very effective things. And we did an event one evening, didn't we? Partners came as well. Yeah. I felt we got my husband to come and talk. I won't forget that. Some of you might know he's a urologist, but he does a lot of penile reconstructive work,

and he's got quite a dry sense of humour, shall we say. Some graphic photos, he did a lot of work with embarrassing bodies. And so, but it was great, actually, because... You know, it was interesting. So we got the bloke's in the room, and it was lovely for, whether it was both worked within West Midlands Police or one or the other. But suddenly, again, for me, it's just having the conversation. Absolutely.

And even with a couple that might have skirted around it a bit at home or felt a bit uncomfortable, that suddenly we were just talking about this and it's okay and normalised. It was really impacted. It was. It was really interesting seeing just the dynamics of how a couple sitting next to each other changed over the course of the evening. And, you know, as a medical person, I suppose, I don't get embarrassed about talking about anything, as you know. But we know that lack of libido is huge in men or women. and because we're so British, we don't talk about sex.

But, you know, sex is really important for women and also for men. And certainly men who aren't having regular intercourse, it affects even their ability to work. We know from research that men who have sex at least twice a week actually perform better at work. They have lower blood pressure. They have less risk of diabetes. It's really important.

And obviously, it's important in so many ways. and it's not just about penititive sex. A lot of these women, when your men are palsy, you feel very vulnerable. You feel quite worthless. You feel like a shadow of your former self. So you don't actually want your partner to hold their hand because you're, firstly, might be scared that it is going to lead to something else and you might have some vaginalditis that's painful.

But also you don't feel so much of a woman. And so just these signals that don't come near me is really hard for men. Yeah. And I think that self has. that psychological bit. That's for me as I think what you then see back into the workplace, that's the oversight of some of that. Yeah.

That if you're not feeling good about yourself or you don't feel attractive or your relationship's not going well, you know, even for minor things, you all know, you can have a bit of a sort of grumpy day. Well, if that's over months or years, then, you know, that's huge. Yeah. And that takes me back where we were starting at the beginning about your new role with crime prevention.

there are lots of people in domestic abuse, whether it's physical or verbal abuse, are feeling very vulnerable, aren't they? And we've had this discussion before and there's no research into it and I would love to do some research as to how that changes when these women are perimenopausal and menopausal. Because we know that when people are victims of any sort of abuse, they feel very worthless, but they also feel in some ways that they deserve to be like this. So there's a guilt thing that often goes. guilt thing and people feel that they, and certainly people that do abuse, there's this dichotomy, isn't there, in the morning they'll love that person in the evening they'll be beating them up. Yeah. And for those, often the women who are very vulnerable, they've got nowhere to run to, no one to talk to, nowhere to hide. So it's better the devil, they know sort of thing isn't

the children, the children are involved. So this cycle goes on and on. These women feel worn out, understandably. And then what I keep thinking is when they become perimenopausal and menopausal, they'll feel worthless, they'll feel no motivation, low mood anxiety because of the symptoms, but they'll put that down to their abuse and they won't be strong enough to stand up and, you know, these women, all women need help, but these women, I think, especially need help. A lot of them are in inner cities and access to good primary care can be really difficult, changing. They often see different doctors. As we know, menopause training isn't good for doctors. so they're not getting the right help.

A lot of these women, we know are on antidepressants. Some research has shown recently that women are less than half likely to get HRT if they're in an inner city area. Oh, that's interesting. And I know for a start, you know, women who take HRT often feel better and they feel stronger. They're more likely to stand up. You know, they're more likely to fight, not fight physically. But take a step back and think, what am I doing in this relationship? Come on, I can't be treated like this.

I'm not worthless. I'm, you know, and I just think there's a lot of women out there who could really get a lot of help. And also for those men, my husband hated me when I was menopausal because I was miserable. His breathing annoyed me. I was shouting at the kids. He said to me, the best thing about you being menopausal was that you were tired. You went to bed earlier, and then we could ignore you. Oh, yeah.

And I get that. But if he's not abusive at all, I'm very fortunate. But if he was. There's been more reason to attack me because I wasn't the person he married 30 years ago. Yeah. And if it had gone on for longer, he would have left me. There's no doubt about it because I was really difficult. But I only had symptoms for a few months until I finally realised what's going on.

But so for a lot, you can see how these things happen. And I think it's very interesting because this is a global problem. It's not a social problem. It's not related to social class or ethnic mix. All women, like you say, go through the menopause, and all women will have some of these symptoms. So there's ways of teasing it out with your future work. I will be a tonne again. Well, it's interesting.

So my work now sort of moves around violence and vulnerability, and it is around that preventive. So it does include the whole spectrum from domestic abuse, exploitation, grooming, you know, so violence, knife crime, street crime, alcohol based. So I think certainly within that domestic. And the good thing is, so working with... with a whole range of partners. So local authority, the NHS that of care commissioning, the public health England, there's a whole breadth of experience and perspective.

But one of the ladies who's just joined the team has worked with the women's aid and worked within a whole, across a whole spectrum of, you know, sort of domestic abuse and sexual abuse survivors. So I'm going to go and pick her brains. Oh, I'd be amazing. And maybe we can sort of have that conversation.

I think it's really interesting, and I'm sure lots of people listening will be sort of nodding their head and thinking. Maybe that's like we'll have a watch this space. Yes. Come back. Okay. No.

That would be amazing. There's those links there. As you say, domestic abuse goes across all sections of society and similarly, you know, it doesn't sort of just become one group. Absolutely. Well, thank you ever so much for your time. It's been we could talk all day. Good.

So before we finish, could I ask for three take home tips about what you might offer for women who are in the workplace feeling a bit vulnerable? or not really sure what to... Yeah, so I think, you know, the top bit for me is to find somebody to talk to about it. Now, if in the immediate, that's not your line manager, one of I think the most powerful things that we've enabled to happen in West Midlands

is a group of women, that peer support. So go and find somebody else in the same position as you. As and when, either you or that group feel that you've got the strength and the confidence, it is then going and finding the right sort of organisational advocate. So for us, women and policing is staff network. If you've got a staff network, that's great. But it might be your diversity and inclusion. It might be your wellbeing.

It might be your health. You will find someone somewhere. And quite often it's somebody who's sort of been through it or at least, oh God, yeah. I remember when it was me or my sister or somebody. So there's like, you know, sort of find somebody help each other. Find somebody within the organisation. And then don't be afraid to make a bit of noise at the point that you've got the right platform. and either you personally or through,

and that's where I saw my role really as women in policing, is make a bit of noise about it, not to embarrass anybody, not to force people to discuss stuff they don't want to, but so that the gap for me was, if you need to come into work and talk about it, you felt you'd got a safe enough space to do that. So it'd be that sort of tiered approach for me.

And, you know, if you're not getting that support within your organisation, link out to others. So, I mean, we'll talk to anybody with the police. But, you know, really comfortable. There's lots of organisations or people who've got in touch. And we can either put you in touch with people locally or, you know, and through your networks, Louise, as well. But if it's not working within your organisation, don't think there has to be the end of it.

There will be lots of across all different sectors and all different types of organisations, you know, public, private, that we might know of somebody who knows somebody who can start influencing. Brilliant. Great. That'd be it. Don't buy tips. Brilliant. Thank you ever so much. Thank you.

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