The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 07 - It’s Probably Nothing: unpacking the pitfalls of women’s healthcare with Naga Munchetty

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

In this week’s episode, Dr Louise Newson is joined by broadcaster and journalist Naga Munchetty, known for her role on BBC Breakfast. Naga discusses her new book, It’s Probably Nothing, where she explores how women’s health concerns are often dismissed, left undiagnosed, or told their pain was normal’. Drawing on her own personal experiences, she examines the harmful impact of medical misogyny and stresses the urgent need for change in how women’s health issues are treated. Naga reflects on the pressure she felt in sharing her personal experiences publicly, balancing her role as a journalist with the vulnerability of becoming the story. Yet by speaking out, she realised how many others had experienced similar struggles. Her diagnosis of adenomyosis took over three decades, a delay that mirrors the experiences of many women conditioned to minimise their symptoms. The conversation highlights the emotional toll of being dismissed in the healthcare system and the barriers that prevent women from advocating for themselves. Both Naga and Louise emphasise the importance of genuine listening and collaboration in medical care, calling for greater support systems, second opinions, and the vital role of self-advocacy. They also highlight the need for better care for marginalised communities, particularly in regions where the word “menopause” doesn’t even exist and women struggle to receive the support they need. This episode is a powerful call for more compassionate, inclusive, and informed healthcare for women everywhere. This episode serves as a powerful call for better treatment, increased awareness, and stronger support systems for women in healthcare.   Available to watch on YouTube To find out more about Naga, follow her on X here & Instagram here.  Check out Naga's book, It's Probably Nothing: Critical Conversations on the Women's Health Crisis (and How to Thrive Despite it) here We hope you're loving the new series! Share your thoughts with us on the feedback form here and if you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to leave a 5-star rating on your podcast platform. Email [e-mail] with suggestions for new guests! Disclaimer  The information provided in this podcast is for informational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health providers with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. The views expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Dr Louise Newson or the Newson Health Group.    LET'S CONNECT  Website: Dr Louise Newson Instagram: The Dr Louise Newson Podcast (@drlouisenewsonpodcast) • Instagram photos and videos LinkedIn: Louise Newson | LinkedIn Spotify: The Dr Louise Newson Podcast | Podcast on Spotify YouTube: Dr Louise Newson - YouTube   

Today on the podcast I'm very excited and privileged to have with me, Nagamanchetti, who is a presenter, a journalist, and actually really inspirational to allow others to think and move forward in lots of conversations. So I've obviously been very enamoured with your work for many years, but I was super excited when you asked if I could be involved in your book that has just come out called It's probably nothing, but it absolutely isn't nothing, which we're going to talk about today. So thank you so much for joining me. Oh, well, look, thank you, Louise.

I'm really proud of this book. And one of the reasons I'm really proud of this book is because I got brilliant people to be part of it. You know, I had more than 100 contributors and I was determined that I was going to talk to people with real life experiences. but back all of those up with experts from their fields. And so when you said yes to talk to me, I was ever so grateful. So thank you. Oh, thank you. And do you know what?

I don't think 10 years ago, what I couldn't have done a podcast, I couldn't have had these conversations because I didn't know the suffering that was going on. And as a doctor, obviously I work a lot with lots of people. But when you're a GP, which I was for 25 years, you're actually in your own. consulting room, doing the best that you want to do for your patients, but you think everyone else is a similar experience and it's not until you yourself become a patient or maybe a family member or like I've done now expose myself to lots of people through different platforms, especially social media, that I realize that people don't all have the same experience.

And then sometimes I think maybe I'm quite skewed in who I see in my clinic, but people your book just opens really talking, not just about your experience, Nagar, but about lots of other women's experiences. And one of the things that really comes through to me is that people often aren't listened to. I don't know what you think about that. Yeah.

I mean, I was always determined that this book, even though the launch pad from it was my own experiences and having spoken about my own experiences on Five Live radio where obviously I have a show. And that in itself is really difficult because it's difficult on so many levels. Firstly, it's difficult because I want to be seen as a professional. I'm a journalist and a broadcaster.

I don't want to be seen as someone who has problems with my reproductive health or, you know, gynecological problems. I don't want to be seen as the story because my job is to ask questions. By the way, this is very weird being on the other side, being into you. I never enjoy that. But the job is to get the story out from the person you are talking to and to inform the audience. So you never want to be the story because you have to be impartial. You have to be away from it.

So you can ask questions that are comfortable and allow someone to tell their story, but also be able to challenge someone. So if you're involved, that makes it very difficult. So that was difficult in itself. But when I did first talk about, it was my coil fitting that I first talked about on radio. And the number of women and men that got in touch who'd experienced the same thing.

It just made me think, you're not, oh, well, it's me. Look, what happened to me? Because it wasn't about that, because Catlin Moran had written about it as well, brilliant journalist. but it made me realise, and then with my adenomyosis, which took 32 years to diagnose, and even then it wasn't a clear diagnosis,

of course, I started realizing just how many times we are dismissed, left undiagnosed, told it's normal, told to suck up pain. And that whole idea that women, because apparently we're made for childbirth, then pain should be a natural default and it was seeping into the language of medicine and women's treatment and I'm mad about it. I'm mad if I'm being honest, I'm angry about it.

Yeah. And so you should be really, I mean, my oldest daughter is actually 22. And when I had her, it was an emergency section and I was ill after. I had sepsis. And I remember going to the consultant saying, look, I just really don't feel right. I'm in so much pain. I keep getting these horrendous sweats.

I can't think straight. I really don't think I'm well. He said, Louise, you're quite middle class. You're quite posh. And you've had a section. And this is how people feel after a section. And like, I've never had a cesare section before. I didn't know what to expect.

And I'd never really expected a doctor to talk to me quite like that because I would never waste anyone's time. I would only go if I was ill. I wasn't getting better. She was six week old. I'd had three different types of antibiotics. I hobbled in to see him. And in retrospect, I know I look really ill.

My husband, who's a doctor, was really worried about me. And you're right. I think as women, we're expected to just carry on. And so much is normalized. And I think it's awful, not just that it took 32 years for you to have this diagnosis, but like how many consultations, how much time, you know, how it's sort of, that's what's really sad that people are desperate and then they almost gaslit and they think

well maybe I'm not that bad maybe I should just carry on maybe I'm making a fuss maybe I'm wasting that doctor's time and I don't know if you had any of those feelings in any of your consultations over 32 years all of those and much more and what's interesting is I was diagnosed after 32 years of very very heavy and painful period but only because I had bled constantly for nearly a month.

And it was because of that that I was referred to a gynecologist. The only other time I'd seen a gynecologist was when I actually was a surgeon, because it was to perform my sterilisation. So the only time I was ever referred and had a transvaginalist, or scan was because I'd been bleeding for so long abnormally. Up until then, every appointment I'd had with the doctor and I'd say, my periods are really heavy, they're really painful. Yeah, that's normal.

We'll pop you on the contraceptive pill. Try the coil. Depot Prevara. And so the whole time, I was never diagnosed it because no one looked for it. No one ever seemed to care about what was causing it. No one asked me, how are these, what do you mean you've got heavy periods? Tell me about them. And if they had, they'd know I was passing out for the first 48 hours.

I was throwing up. I was flooding. I was, even though I worked shifts, I was setting an alarm every three hours. I was sleeping on a towel, a period towel and a tampon and setting an alarm to change those because I knew I'd flood them through after three hours. for the first 48 hours, and I'd be in pain, I'd have cramps, I would still be going to work. No one asked me, how does this impact your life? Which I don't understand isn't why the first thing a patient is asked when they come in saying

they're ill, well, how's it affecting your life? How's it stopping you being the best you can be? Because if anyone had, then they'd have bothered to try to diagnose me, maybe. Yeah. But no one did. They just tried to mask these symptoms. It's quite something, isn't it? I realise, like, I'm not from a medical background,

so no one in my family has ever been a doctor before. And so I always see, and I still do today, being a doctor's a real privilege, it's a real honour. But I did a lot of hospital medicine, and it was very much treat Mrs. Bloggs in bed three with asthma, treat Mr. Smith in bed five, who's had a heart attack. So it was all, like, labels, conditions. And then I went into general practice.

later on really and I had the most amazing trainer who said to me Louise you're going to be a really bad doctor and I said what do you mean she said you're not going to be a good GP because you won't listen it will be about getting that diagnosis and finding that diagnosis and then talking out the treatment he said in this year that I train you I'm going to make you involve the patient ask the questions to the patient ask them what made them come today why are they thinking about it what do they think's going on and it really opened up my mind to a way that I still consult now, because there might be 100 different people

with, I don't know, meiosis, but every single person is going to have a different experience and a different impact. So you don't want to be labeled as Mrs. Smith with whatever. You want, you've got this condition, but actually how is it affecting you? How is it impacting not just you, but your work, your colleagues, your people at home, your circumstances,

what are you worried about? Because sometimes people might be, have something very trivial, but they're worried they've got cancer. And for me, just to say, actually, it's very unlikely it's cancer, we'll do a scan, then they're so reassured, it doesn't actually matter what the diagnosis is. You just see what I mean? I do. I think being involved as a patient really early on, and like you absolutely say, the doctor, the clinician, understanding the impact is really, really important. And that I feel really sad that people aren't given that vehicle to actually explain the impact because I know myself when I go to see a doctor,

I'm quite nervous. I don't want to waste their time. I'll answer their questions, but I won't volunteer more information. And I understand more and more the time constraints. People are tired, people are busy. So you're not going to be explaining to the doctor how you flood through the sheets if they don't ask. But then as a doctor, you can't build up that picture of what's the impact of that condition in that person and the urgency, not just of making a diagnosis, but treatment options as well. Yeah, and I think, I mean,

every doctor I've spoken to for this book has given that advice, you know, go in knowing what you want to say, talk about the impact of your life. There are doctors, GPs in there who say, if I have to listen, I have to ask about the impact on the life, but I don't, that definitely didn't happen to me.

and I was dismissed for so many and so many times. I remember, when I talk about this, I had thrush and I had a GP who I saw at least twice who basically told me I was unhygienic, too sexually active and kept saying, well, just here's the, here's the pestery. And I'd been repeatedly saying this isn't working. And it was only because I saw a GP because he wasn't available. And she said, oh, you can take a tablet. And it went within two days.

And now I know I can then go to the pharmacy. And I've been to pharmacists to have said, oh, no, are you sure this is what it is? And I'm like, I know what this is because I know my body. And I've had this before. And I've been gatekeepers at the pharmacy. And so I've gone to a different pharmacy where a woman has listened to me and says, okay, fine, ask all the right questions, but then gives me the tablet. I just, I felt, and both occasions, and this is nothing against male GPs.

I was spoken to male GPs in this book who are brilliant who listened, but I think women, I write in the book, I went back to that second GP who'd accused me, who'd made a moral judgment on me, and that had affected my treatment, my medical treatment. And I look back now and think, how dare they? But I didn't realize it at the time, because I was, my pain outweighed the humiliation of the first appointment. And it takes, as you say, it takes so much for us to book a GP appointment in the first place because we put things off in terms of we prioritise other people, other things work, whatever,

in our lives. So, and I say this, that if someone go, if a woman is at a GP and she's asking about, it could have taken years for her to get to that point. It does not take half an hour of her not feeling well. to go, right, I'll ring up the GP because that's what I do. It takes days, weeks, months, even years before they ask for help. And that's on us. That is bad.

Yeah. It should give practitioners an idea of, oh my goodness, I can already, I already know this is serious to her because she's here. I totally agree. And one of the things that I really worry about, and you said it earlier, is about how much is normalized. So then it makes it very different. courts who know when do I go and seek medical help. So talking about heavy periods, oh, well, you will have heavy periods, or they will be painful. Well, why do we accept it? And how is it become so normalized that people aren't receiving the right help, support and treatments as well? And I think

that's really sad because, you know, we're both English speaking, we're both educated. I worry a lot about areas of deprivation for people that don't speak English, that can't advocate for themselves, that really can't put them number one because they've got so much else going on. And like you say that the impetus, there's sort of time for them to go and see a doctor, it will be that much harder. So you often, in certain areas and certain communities, you've just got one chance as a doctor. You know you'll never see them again. And for me, it's such a priority. If someone's coming for help from certain areas, I will think, right, this person's really suffering. But actually, if those people aren't listened to, then what happens? Or they get given the

wrong treatment or treatment that doesn't help them? It's an absolute car crash because it not just impacts them, it's everyone around them as well, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, I've spoken to doctors who do go to various communities and speak to, you know, for example, South Asian communities. It is not spoken about. Your periods are not spoken about. Your periods are not spoken And menopause isn't spoken about. In some languages, there isn't even a word for menopause. I know. So it's like, and in some, it's quite, in some languages, it means the end or the

withering or, you know, something ridiculous. Yeah. That is menopause. And so, so no wonder it's taboo in so many cultures because women are like, I don't, I can't admit this. I can't say I'm no longer abused sin society. or, you know, I'm the hag but goes and sits in the corner,

we go back to the days of witches then, do you know what I mean? The normalisation. The normalisation, it makes me mad because for two reasons. One, I remember once being asked about my level of pain

when I had my periods. And this is someone who was fainting, sweating through pain, screeching, wrapping myself around a toilet, toilet, curled in a ball, often sleeping on the floor because I just thought, if I'm uncomfortable sleeping, then I won't notice the pain as much, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does make you know.

And you're digging nails into the palm of your hand, so you just, you divert the pain almost. And I remember saying once, it was later on, oh, my pain's probably a six. That is not a six, right? But because I'd normalized my pain, because I've been told it was normal, that's what I did. And the other thing is you're told at school, I think a lot goes back to education. I've spoken to some young girls in the book, because you'll be aware, you know, one girl who started her period before her 10th birthday, and she was at school having the lesson, the talk, as it's known. And

they were told, oh, it's just a teaspoon, a couple of teaspoons a day of blood. And it's a bit, It can be a bit uncomfortable, but it lasts a few days and it's fine. You'll just, you'll use period products and you'll be fine. When she put her hand out to say, no, because no, I, I've really had, she was basically told to shut up by the teacher because they didn't want to scare the other girls. And I'm no one saying you have to scare children. Boys and girls, by the way, boys and girls need to know about menstruation. Because boys, how many times have you been, you know, you had a,

boyfriend or a partner who's, oh my goodness, what's happening to you? Because they're not told about what's going on and you explain to them. But boys and girls need to be educated. But also this whole idea is just because a girl menstruates, therefore she's in puberty and able to get pregnant, that a girl's going to run out and get pregnant. Now, if you're more worried about the girl getting pregnant than having healthy periods and having a healthy life and great career, something's a skew here, isn't it? This societal, this message is a skew. And that is the problem as well when it comes to normalising, you know, pain, bleeding, heavy bleeding in that sense.

I totally agree because also quite a few of treatments are contraceptives, as you know. But actually for many years, people don't think about what contraceptives are and what they do to the body and how different they are to natural hormones. And they can increase inflammation. so people with adenomyosis or endometriosis, often actually giving synthetic hormones can make things worse. They might stop periods, but as you say, women shouldn't be defined as about their periods. You know, it's what's going on in their body,

and that's what's really important. And I think almost some doctors, and I used to do it, was the way I was trained by gynecologists, it's almost a marker of success. This woman isn't having a period, therefore she'll be fine. Well, no, she can see. still have hormonal changes. She can still have pain. She can still have mental health issues due to the hormones that have been given because they're synthetic. But that's sort of not

looked at in the same way almost, which again, it's focusing on the woman as somebody that has a womb, which we're more than that, aren't we? We are more than wounds on legs. I say that. We are. Yeah. And, and, you know, You know, your book is amazing because it goes through different areas and, you know, there's quotes throughout. But actually, as I said to you before, we went on out, I started reading it in the bath and I carried on, had a very long bath. But it's amazing the sort of sadness and the pattern. They're really sad that these are real women. It's 2025.

And these are people with real lives. And they're really struggling. And I just don't know why it hasn't got any better. Everyone who took part who I interviewed wants what happened to them not to happen to someone else. Indeed. That's why. And every interview was at least an hour. And we've had more than 100 contributors.

And, you know, some of them, some of the people I spoke to, and not all have chosen to use their real names because it's still very painful. And they would say it's almost like a therapy session because they hadn't said things. out loud when it comes to their trauma, and it is trauma some of it. And I found that really heartbreaking. And I would step away from interviews in tears sometimes because people are just being treated so badly. And by not being treated, that is treating them badly.

I'm not talking about being spoken too badly. I'm talking about being left in this state. those stories are also massively cut down. So they're no more than usually a page, a page and a half, you know, because after speaking to these people for an hour, you can only get so much in. And after every story, though, is a professional who offers advice in terms of how to fight your corner

and talks about what treatments are available. There's no advice as in you should be doing this if you have these symptoms, but there is advice in terms of how to stand up for yourself. And this is the theme throughout it, that these people who are every person I spoke to is brilliant. But they either were too ill, too tired, too worn down to fight and didn't have that backup, which is what I hope this book will be, will do. It's so important.

I mean, I found them sad to read because as a healthcare professional, I found it really sad thinking these women have been let down by my colleagues. You know, it's not the fact that they are sad stories making me feel sad. It was the fact that I feel really disappointed, actually. And I think in medicine, we don't always know the answers. We can't always make diagnosis. We can't know everything about everything. but what we can do is definitely listen and try and understand.

And we can give options to people. And I've always sort of done it in that if this treatment doesn't work, then that we could try this or maybe we'll give you this investigation or refer you to this person. So it's part of sort of safety netting, but it's also enabling patients to know they can come back and it's not the end of the road if something doesn't improve. Because like you say, if it's taken a long time,

to come to that consultation, and then I give you a treatment and you feel no better, then it doesn't matter how kind I am in the consultation. If you don't feel better, it's irrelevant. But if you know that that doctor said, well, actually, she did say, if this treatment doesn't work, there's something else we can do. It's opening that door again for you. And I feel these poor women haven't had that as options. And I think what's also really different now to what it was when I qualified, when we didn't have the internet was that women learned so much more quickly than they did. You don't have to learn anything from your doctor anymore. You can learn from other people's experiences. You can learn, you know, you've got access to the same information as I have, really, now about diseases.

But the big thing that I think echoes through this whole book is about being an advocate for yourself being really prepared for that consultation. And I think that's crucially important. In my mind, that's the sort of biggest take home that you come away from this book thinking, yes, actually, I'm not doing this alone. I'm really going to get the most out of that consultation because it's my body, it's my life, it's my future. And that's really important, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I've had to advocate for friends and family

when in all different situations, not had to, but I've offered to. Because sometimes it's not that someone doesn't have the language. It's just they're so upset by how ill they are that when they get into that consultation, they can't think because they're either so relieved they're being looked at or they're going through some treatment

that they can't think about the details. So I've often sat with friends or family and said, right, what do you want out of this? What questions do we need to ask? And I've sat there and just made sure those questions are asked and sat, you know, by the side of someone and made sure the questions are asked. And I'm thinking of one particular friend

when she was going through treatment who just got so upset because there was a history of cancer in her family which is what she was scared of, that she would be in tears, a brilliantly strong woman, articulate, feisty, brilliant, be in tears.

So I would sit there and leave her to cry and say, right, what about this? And ask, you know, the practitioner, what about this, what about this? So that when we left, we could go back, have a coffee and go and make sure that everything was understood. Now, this is, if someone who is educated,

does you say educated, capable, or articulate, can feel overwhelmed like that. I agree with you what you said earlier, that those in marginalised communities who are vulnerable, who don't have that help. And by the way, there are advocacy groups available as well. If you haven't got friends or family who can help you, you can look up advocacy groups as well, peer groups, to help you.

Then what hope do they have? Yeah. It's really difficult. I know many years ago, I had pancreatic. I was really ill and I still had problems afterwards and went back and forth to a specialist clinic. It was really, really very good doctor, but I wasn't getting better. And the last consultation, I actually cried because I was feeling so awful. And he examined me and he looked at me and said, Louise, I think you just need some antidepressants. And I was really the first

time I was so shocked because I knew I wasn't, I was low in my mood because I was feeling awful. And I then actually, my husband said, this is ridiculous. I'm going to get you to see someone else, I think you need your gallbladder taking out. And then I felt fine. And it was obviously all related to my gallbladder. But if I hadn't have had the strength of my husband, if I hadn't, like this was about 10 years ago, I would still be, you know, what would I be being? I would be taking antidepressants inappropriately, still be ill. And I think the other thing is, it's really important that people listening know that you can get a second, third opinion. You know, none of us is doctor's mind if someone sees somebody else. And I think that is important, isn't it, that people

can see someone else. They don't have to go back to the same doctor. I think that people have this fear of offending their doctor, don't they? I mean, you go in and into a surgery and you're asking them to help. You know you've only got 10 minutes, unless you've booked a double appointment, and that's something else you can do. If you know that there are multiple conditions or you really need some time to explain what's going on. But you really don't want to offend your doctor. I remember apologising to a GP, who wasn't offended, by the way, because I was taking notes. Because I felt, oh, do they think I'm keeping a record of what they're saying and I'm going

to use it again? You know, how does the mind work? Yeah, too, to do. So I think, you know, we are intimidated or in awe of doctors. But ultimately, we have to think that we have the right to feel better. and their job and their will is to want to heal us. They've gone into this to make people feel better. And it is, you know, they're puzzle solvers as well,

which is part of the joy of that job as well. So there is a satisfaction when they can help someone and solve the puzzle. So it's, but it should be a partnership. It is not going there, you know, and expect them to just tell you what's wrong or for them to immediately fix you because it doesn't work like that either. No, and I think that is crucially important. actually setting the scene for the consultation, even at the beginning, saying,

I've come because I'm having really painful, heavy periods, and I would really like to talk to you about a treatment that is going to improve the quality of my life, or I want to talk to you about the next test that I need to have to try and get the diagnosis or whatever. So you're framing that consultation from the start. And I think it's really important for that patient to be as empowered as possible to actually anybody who can make some notes, bring some more information is really important. And they're not wasting people's time.

And if a doctor feels threatened, then they're probably because they're out of their comfort zone and maybe they're not the right person to be seen. But at the end, I think it's also really important to almost summarise. So from this consultation, what I understand is you're giving me X treatment for Y symptom and if it doesn't help I can do Zed. So you've got that really clear because it is a partnership.

You know, I feel as a doctor, I'm actually the patient's advocate. I'm there to help them with the right, you know, I've got that knowledge and experience. But every consultation I do is different, even if the person had exactly the same disease. Because it's the way that, like you said at the beginning, it's the way it affects them. But also what they want out of it as well. Because some people, it might be the vomiting that they're getting is far more significant. than the pain. And if I only focus on the pain, then I haven't done the right consultation. You know, so I think that's, well, I know it's so important.

And that's something that really, I think, echoes through your book a lot. It gives you this fire in the belly, whether it's out of sympathy for some of these people or anger. It doesn't actually matter what I think it will do. And I'm really intrigued to see how the comments and the reviews go with this book, because I think it's going to give people permission to maybe be slightly different in their consultations? I really hope so. I really hope so.

I gave a talk yesterday and a woman came up to me and she said, I've got to go back to my doctor. I've had treatment for this and it's just not working and I just thought, oh well, I'm 60 now. So not really much you can do for me. She said, I'm going back. I'm going to go and book an appointment.

And if this book it just gets one person back to being healthy and it's, look, society is tough enough. It is hard enough to be, to try to be the best who you are again with all the systems in society

at this moment in time. Our health is something, there is a system. There is the NHS designed so that we all have the right to be healthy, to be as healthy as we can and be the best we have, and then contribute to society. If this book,

just gets one person saying, no, I know how to get the best out of my GP appointment. I know how to get the best out of my condition and understand my condition. I know how to advocate for myself and I'm going to go back or I'm going to do this. Great. Great. Brilliant. Well, I think it actually will be more than one person that does that from your book. So, but I'm so great for your time because I know how much. busy you are but before we end I'd just like three take-home tips. So three things that you really would love to make a difference to people's lives going forward. Three things that you think

people could do that's going to improve that 60 year old, that 10-year-old, whoever, you know, in the best, shortest way almost. Embrace puberty, talk about it with young people. and don't see it as just now you can get pregnant for girls, see it for what it is, and emboldened girls to understand their bodies at a young age and not fear periods. Talk to each other. Open up the conversation.

We're great talking about mental health. We're not great about talking about our physical health, particularly gynecological problems. Talk about the pain you might have, because more often than not other people have experienced it or know someone who has, but we're not talking about it enough. We're not normalising that conversation. And know that if you go to a GP and you feel you're not being heard,

feel free to say, I don't think you're hearing me. If you become what's called a heart sink patient, when a GP feels they've gone round in circles and their hearts is sinking when they see you, ask for a referral. as you've said, GPs don't mind. If you get a referral, you're still not heard, and you see another GP. If you're still not heard, change practices.

You are entitled to do that. Don't give up. Very good advice. Lots of information, lots to think about, and hopefully lots to really empower people going forward. And I'm so grateful for you coming on today. And good luck with everything with the book as well. So thank you.

Louise, thank you so much. And thank you for your wise words in the book as well. I'm sure people will take those away and that will help their lives be better too. Thank you. Take care. Oh, thank you. Subscribe to my newsletter for exclusive insights and updates on new episodes.