The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 121 - Celebrating World Menopause Day: supporting one another

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

In this special episode, released on World Menopause Day 2021, Dr Louise Newson talks to two women about their own experiences of menopause. Melanie is a midwife from Birmingham who talks about her ongoing challenges of coping with menopausal symptoms, getting the right support at work, and finding a treatment that works for her. Grace is in her 50s and went through an early menopause in her late 30s. She struggled over the years to be listened to by healthcare professionals and have her needs understood as a gay woman. After watching the documentary with Davina McCall, Grace felt empowered to push for the help she knew she needed. Melanie and Grace’s conversation with Louise aptly illustrates what World Menopause Day is all about – raising awareness about the effects of menopause on women’s health and wellbeing globally, and elevating voices of those going through the menopause from all cultural backgrounds and sexual orientation. As Louise says, we cannot fully celebrate World Menopause Day until all women, all over the world are able to get the help and support they need. Grace and Melanie’s top reasons for speaking out for WMD: Educating others about the effects of the menopause is so important. Women need support and to know they are not alone – it’s not that something’s wrong with them. Get ready for the menopause, it’s inevitable, embrace it, and be empowered to deal with it when the time comes. Regardless of your colour, religion, or sexual orientation, come together and support one another.

Hello, I'm Dr Louise Newsom and welcome to my podcast. I'm a GP and menopause specialist and I run the Newsome Health Menopause and well-being centre here in Stratford-Bron-Avon. I'm also the founder of the Menopause charity and the menopause support app called Balance. On the podcast, I will be joined each week by an exciting guest to help provide evidence-based information and advice about both the perimenopause and the menopause. So today we're doing a double act actually. I've got two lovely ladies with me on the podcast and we're going to be discussing obviously the menopause but we're going to be specifically talking about World Menopause

Day and for me it's very exciting because every year that I've been doing work in the menopause, the World Menopause Day has got bigger and noisier and more spoken about which I think is great. We need to keep talking about the menopause but we need to keep talking about the menopause but we need to think about it as being something positive rather than something negative. And the only way we can do that is by instigating change and ensuring women receive the right help, support and treatment. So I've got Melanie and Grace. So if I start with you, Melanie, first.

Could you just introduce yourself to our listeners and then I'll come over to Grace? Right. So I'm Melanie from Birmingham. I'm 56 and I've been going through the menopause probably before I even knew it really. but I can say that from about the age of 51, I kind of really noticed my symptoms. Yeah. So have you received some help for your symptoms? I have. So at around the age of 51, I kind of went to my GP who was really very supportive. And she gave me the patches, which I had for a good while. Now, the patches worked with me for about a year or probably nearly

two years, but then I started to have side effects and I started to get a lot of pain in my breast, which really panicked me. I stopped taking it straight away because I was just like beside myself. And I went for a mammogram, which came back absolutely fine. I went back to see my GP and I requested to be referred to the menopause clinic at the women's hospital in Birmingham. So I was seen there by a couple of the doctors and luckily I managed to get in really quickly because I actually worked there, so that was really handy. So I was seen there, and my treatment was changed, and I was put onto the gel and the patches, which were good,

but I was told to take the tablets orally. So after about six to nine months of taking the tablets, I then suffered with vaginal bleeding, which panicked me again. I became quite hysterical, stopped the treatment again, and went for a scan. They scanned me. They found nothing. Everything was absolutely fine. And it was around the time where COVID started. So I had no HRT. I was like totally beside myself. I had to go off sick from work. And then like I came along to your clinic, Louise, and spoke to the nurse there because I'm

otherwise fit and healthy. I've got no elements whatsoever. So I saw the nurse and she was absolutely excellent. So then I was put back on the same treatment that I had the gel and the tablets, but she said to me to take the tablets vaginally every other day, which worked really well. But then this name, I came in from work and I bent over and I felt something just kind of moved in my chest and I thought it was breast pain again and I became another hysterical woman again, stopped my treatment again. And it turned a out to be nothing. I went for a mammogram a while after and that turned out to be absolutely nothing. It was

more to do with muscular pain in my chest than it was breast pain. But at the moment I'm not on any treatment at all. Oh dear. And I am suffering. So you've had quite a roller coaster of times, haven't you really? I have. Okay. We'll come back to everything. What's about you, Grace? Tell me a bit about you if that's okay. Oh, thanks for that, Melanie. I think for me, I was perimenopause at like 36, 37. So we're young.

Yeah, very young. The doctors wouldn't believe me. I went to my GP. My GP I've had for like 10 years. He was a really lovely guy, but when you mentioned many pores and that, he was a bit br-br-br-br-brough, brough, brough, he didn't quite know what to do.

And I don't think that was necessarily his fault. It was because, as you're making everybody very aware, Dr. Louise, is the doctors are not even aware of it, even though you're giving this amazing fantastic free training, I still can't believe there's loads of GPs out there but not grabbing this hand over fist. So I was kind of like perimen causal and I went to see the doctor and he dismissed me.

So I felt very, I felt like I had no voice and I felt like I had no choice. That's the way I walked away there feeling. So then I thought I'd go back and I'd try and see the female doctor that was on because I thought, well, you know, she'd know a little bit more. And with all due respect to anyone that had mine, as Margaret Thatcher. When I walked into the room, she was twin set and pearls, and she reminded me a Margaret Thatcher. And I didn't feel that I was able to talk to her about my body. We're talking

20 years ago, you know, I'm 56 now, and we're going back 20 years, and I'm gay as well. So going in and speaking to a lady that I didn't feel that I could relate to. And when we were talking, it was the usual questions like, are you sexually active? Yes. Do you use contraception? No. And then you see the confusion. Kind of like, ah, do you have any children? No. Do you have your partner? Yes.

And then finally, you know, it's guiding and going, well, actually I'm gay. And then within that, it was very dismissed. Oh, that doesn't matter. Nothing matters now because you're gay. Nothing can happen to you from the waist down. It's, you're fine. So I kind of like bimbled through a little bit more. And then by the time I was 44, I was really getting hot flushes.

And I tried holistic. I went to like a doctor who was a holistic doctor. You know, she gave me recipes for HRT cakes and made these little capsules and none of it worked. And I just felt like I was getting crazier and crazy and crazy. I really did. Anxiety levels were increasing. Confusion. You know, I was forgetting words.

I sing in a band. I do music. I was working in the single homeless sector at the time and, you know, just forgetting. I had to write notes for like clients and I was just forgetting things and getting more confused. So I was worried. I was really worried about my. you know, my mental wellbeing. So I went back again to the doctors and still I got dismissed. I was disempowered again. So this really went on and on. The only choice that they gave me was the

tablets that were made from horses you're in. Or you don't want to go near the, you know, HRT. Are there any heart problems in your family? Is there any, you know, and they were going through that and it was almost like putting you off, you know, to do this because they didn't know. and then I don't know how but I kind of like bimbled through and then along came yourself Dr Louise and then along came Davina McCall now you know we know have a lot of respect for because also you know she's in recovery everybody knows that and so am I all in recovery for 26 years so you know seeing that program and seeing what you all you know put together and did that empowered me right It's like to just keep going forward and keep pressing for what I wanted.

It took some time to get through to my GP. And she was a lot more supportive. She put me on the patches, but it still wasn't enough. I was still, you know, I tried it for a few months and then trying to get through to the GP again. And then that didn't work. Then finally, you know, I just went, I was on the waiting list. As soon as I saw that program, I put myself on the waitantist to come see somebody at your clinic. And I saw Holly Jackson, who was just absolutely amazing.

the total opposite to twin set and pearls. What an amazing human being. She was just, you know, so interested in what I had to say. She was just there. She kind of like, I felt like somebody understood me. I really felt I was understood and heard. Whereas before it was very dismissive and I wasn't heard and I wasn't listened to and I didn't feel supported.

It's really lovely that you've shared this story, but it's also sad as well. And I think there's so many levels to unpick. And I think some of the work I do, someone would describe to me, it's like an onion and you've got lots of. of layers and you peel back one layer and there's something else there and you know with the menopause it certainly it's not an advertorial for the clinic at all but it is an advertorial for women getting listened to and I think that's really really important I think everyone is an individual and we all need to be treated as an individual regardless of our background our

colour our religion whatever our age and the menopause guidelines we work out from nice the National Institute of health and care excellence guidelines are very clear that we should individualised consultations. And actually for a lot of women, it's a big move to go and ask for help. I remember listening to a survey about four years ago now saying only 22% of women go and get help. And that's because I think we've grown up thinking, well, it's a natural process. Every woman goes through it. So it's almost like a badge of honour that we have to have. And if we admit we need help, it's almost like a failing as a woman somehow. And so I think for a lot of people, myself included, It takes a lot to ask for help.

And for me, that first 10-minute consultation is pivotal for a woman's future health and future life. Because if you get not listened to or dismissed, then that's it. You probably won't go back. And, you know, having the right treatment choices available to you will be an investment for your future health. And, you know, I think for me as a doctor, I can't be judgmental. You know, I think we've all got different preferences. or different thoughts or different beliefs, but actually our patients, our individuals,

and if their beliefs and thoughts and lifestyles are different, so what, you know, I don't drink alcohol. I've treated lots of alcoholics over the years. I would never judge them, if you saw what I mean. And, you know, I'm a heterosexual woman. So what? I have loads of women, actually, who patients who are in same-sex relationships.

And actually, I feel doubly sorry for them because a lot of them, they're going through the metaphors at the same time. But it saddens me that people feel they've got this, judgment going on and they're not being able to access the right information and help. And the other thing that's really important is that there are choices in treatment and I think that's what's really important. And some women can't get the entire consultation fitted into 10 minutes. We know 10 minutes is really short. So some women need more than one consultation and that's fine as well,

but it's important that they are followed up. And as Melanie, you said, you know, you've tried different types of HRT and you've still not quite got to the one that's right for you. And it's very easy actually to think, well, I just stop it because, you know, I just get on with my symptoms. But it's also about your future health, your risk of heart disease and osteoporosis and so forth as well. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that you say that. I mean, my partner is younger than so, she's going to be 40 and, you know, she's a doctor, she lectures, etc. And we were kind of like talking about the menipause. And her understanding, And, you know, like all of us, like intelligent woman,

her understanding of the men's course was very much hot flushes, your period stop, you might have a few mood swings, then you go forward. She didn't even know about the health implications. And I think that is so, so important when it comes to this. It's, you know, looking at empowerment. And I was kind of like just sitting there and I was like thinking, what is empowerment? Is it knowledge? Is it this, is it that?

And I think as women, we need to be ready. I think so absolutely. And I don't know if you've seen the book that I've written, but it's about preparing for the menopause and perimenopause. And when I was deciding on the title with Penguin, they didn't want perimenopause on the title because they thought it would make the book too busy and the title too long.

And I said, no, we have to be prepared before it happens and we have to know what's going on with our bodies. But we also need to think about the menopause as a hormone deficiency with health risks. And I know that sounds quite harsh, but it's real. You know, we're more likely to have a heart attack. We're more likely to have osteoporosis. We're more likely to have type 2 diabetes.

And we're more likely to have dementia without our hormones. And we need to know that, actually. So then we can make choices. And HRT obviously will replace the missing hormones. And our lifestyle will help as well. So, you know, we all need to obviously eat well. We need to exercise. We need to think about drinking and alcohol and so forth.

But that's quite difficult when you're having symptoms as well. And Mone, you also said about work, how difficult it is at work, isn't it? Especially since COVID, it's really impacting me because obviously, you know, with the sweats and everything. And then wearing PPE at work, it's just been absolutely, it's been awful. Now I'm more used to it. It's kind of settled down. But initially, it was just absolutely awful. And I think my anxiety just kind of went through the roof initially.

And not too long ago, I've had an appointment with Ocky House. and I was speaking to the lady on the phone from my Ocky Health appointment and saying, you know, there are certain things that I feel that I can't do in my job at the moment because of the symptoms that I'm having. But I didn't feel that she really understood. She was asking me about my mental health. Well, my mental health is fine, but I just have brain fog and I just sometimes don't feel 100%. but I'm not mentally ill if you understand what I mean. I don't say I see you nodding grace.

What do you think about that? Yeah, totally agree with that. I mean, the default button seems to be antidepressants, seems to be health, mental wellbeing. And that in itself, you're not being heard. Once again, the most important thing is to be heard, isn't it, as you were saying, Dr. Louise, you know? They're not hearing what you're saying.

And I think that goes down to, as I say, it's about not only just about empowerment, but what does empowerment look like? and, you know, Ock Health needs a bit of training around this as well. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of move about educating about menopause in the workplace, which is really important, but it's not just the workplace, is it? It's everyone needs to know about the menopause, whether it's children, partners, parents, brothers, sisters, aunties.

It doesn't matter because all of us are going to come into contact with perimenopause and menopause are women unless we stay at home and never see anyone, because they're all around us because we all go through the menopause. But it is really important because there are mental health effects of the menopause, such as you're saying the brain fog, but they're low mood, anxiety. Even some people get very catastrophic anxiety and very deep, dark thoughts that can happen. And some people, even are suicidal with their thoughts. And it needs to be thought of, though, as not just you are depressed, this is what you need to do.

It's like you have no mood and anxiety as a result of the menopause. And I really feel that employers should be encouraging, women to seek the right help and treatment as well because, you know, when I was experiencing symptoms, it would be very easy to have reduced my eyes and stopped work, but I didn't actually want to do that, but I was really struggling to remember things so I wasn't really safe to carry working. So it's working out how to get the right help. And I think it's sad that you've both try to get help, but it hasn't been quite right. And I think the training is improving. But I also, I don't want to be rude about healthcare professionals because most of them have not had adequate training

and they're very busy. So we're hoping that would change with some of the education we're doing. But I very, very strongly feel that we need to be empowered as women so we can, like you say, Grace, when you know more information, you can then ask a bit more, can't you, have a bit more confidence? I don't know if either of you've used the balance app. Yeah, yeah. Has that been helpful giving you some knowledge and information? That is really good. Yeah. That is really, good. And in fact, this morning I was speaking to one of my colleagues and I said I was going to do this. And she's recently gone on to HR and I was telling her about the balance app and saying to her. And I think starting her HRT was as a result of the conversation that we've had previously because I'm lucky in the sense that about three or four of the girls that I work with are all going through the same things.

So we're kind of able to kind of, they're not surprised when I have a big sweat in the office. It's absolutely fine when we're all in together. But I was telling her, about the app. Yeah. Have you used it, Grace? Yeah, I've been on the app. I read people's stories. I do my journal. I think it's such a valuable, you know, piece of kit. It really is. Honestly, I'm one of the biggest advocates. I'm kind of like the balance out. I'm sending it to people. People already know what they're getting for Christmas as a Christmas present. It's your book. Oh, great. Yeah, and certainly not the work I'm doing is I really want to reach as many women as possible. I really want to help them. I want to give my brain to them. I want to help them.

to the point of the time they see a healthcare professional. And so if they're empowering the right information, then it's easier. And certainly the app, many of you're listening, who know is free. All the information, the functionality that we have there is always going to be free because I feel very strongly women go through enough. They don't need to be paying for something just to get evidence-based knowledge. But the community section is very powerful and people are really helping and supporting each other, which I think is really key.

And if we ever get some money into the app, I'd really want to start translating it as well because there's so many women from other countries who contact us all the time. And, you know, we're doing them a disservice by not having different languages, but we've just got to walk before we can run with the app. Because it's quite isolating, isn't it?

When you're having these symptoms, you don't really know what's happening. As you say, great, you started really when you're 30, so that's quite hard to talk to people, isn't it? And for people to understand. I mean, even my dad, who's 86, he's kind of like getting a bit of an understanding about hormones. He's even understanding it.

You know, that's a male at 86 years of age. So, Wendy, you obviously work as a midwife, so you work in the NHS. And I'm sure you know that 40% of NHS employees are menopause or women. And we know that around one in five give up their jobs. We did a survey recently that found that 50% of menopause are women who answered the survey had stopped going for promotional or considered leaving their jobs. So that's a lot, isn't it? That is.

But does that surprise you or just sad on you? No. Not at all. I'm not shocked, actually. I'm not shocked at all. But you know, you've worked hard. You're a midwife in the NHS, busy, busy job, but really rewarding job. Yeah.

You're giving back to people all the time. It's really sad, isn't it? That people have to leave their jobs. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, I mean, it's worsened by the fact that retirement age is late. whereas before women could retire at 55. So women are probably leaving and then they've got financial problems on top of it

because they're leaving earlier. But the actual retirement age is now 67, isn't it? And if you've got symptoms or you're not feeling 100%, how can anybody really expect you to stay till 67? It's a long time, isn't it? It is. But I also think, you know, we don't want to leave work. No, no, we want things to be adaptive.

I felt it's been a while. I really had to push to get to go to Ocky House. Really, really had to push to get my time in Ocky Health. And I didn't feel that I should or that I wanted to discuss it with my manager. But I had to say a few things. I felt I should have been allowed. But then when I went to Oki Health and she was asking me so much about mental health and saying, aren't you on medication?

No, I don't need medication. I don't need medication. I just need a few adaptations. I mean, our trust does have a menacehorse policy, but when you're really busy, how much of it can you really follow? Yeah. Absolutely. I think it is about having an understanding is really important so you can recognise. And also, recognising other people as well is really important because it can be very scary.

And also, if you're in a busy job, you're immediately actually think, I can't cope with my job, actually. Or I'm not remembering because I'm so busy and you don't think about yourself. And that's one of the reasons with the app, obviously, having the questionnaire on it and time to reflect. I think it's really useful, actually. And just to do the questionnaire every three months can be really important just to see how it's changed. Because no one should really be suffering. I know, obviously, Melanie, you've tried with HLT, but it sounds like you need to give it another try. Oh, I'm going to.

I'm just kind of, the prescriptions at the chemist, anywhere. Oh, for going to sake. It's not going to work when it's at the chemist. No, I know. I just need to go and get it. Yeah, but that's another reason, isn't it, that you're not prioritising yourself. I don't think as women, I mean, you agree as well,

do we just don't put ourselves first. I was going to say, if that was your friend, I'd say, go and get that prescription. Yeah. Exactly. And then doesn't that just like light, where you go, I'm actually not prioritising myself. And I think you're so right, race.

And someone, I don't know why I was reading some motivational book. I certainly need to be a bit motivated sometimes and just have a bit more confidence in myself. But someone said, Pretend you've got an identical chin. Actually, it was from the tint paradox, such an amazing book. But it was saying pretend you've got an identical twin next to you. And you tell that twin the things that are going on in your mind.

So if, for example, you're, like you, Mel, not getting your HRT that's in the chemist, but you're not prioritising it. You've exactly said to your best friend. But if it was your twin sister, you'll probably be down there and getting it for her because you'd be worried about her because she's having problems with her work. You know, and Grace, a few years ago, if you were struggling with you, your relationship, you would say to you to a man, for goodness sake, ignore what that doctor said. Go and see someone else, actually, just because she doesn't understand I'm in a same-sex

relationship and I still can have intercourse. Actually, let me go and talk to someone else who will. And you would do that because you've got fire in your belly, but you wouldn't do it for yourself. No. I think my twin would have been like that and being off. You know, especially as you were saying, I mean, that really was pinging things like the dark thoughts that can sometimes have, especially in a wee small hours. Yes, definitely. And I think it's very hard. And I think also, you know, as a healthcare professional, I know that I will not get on with every single one of my patients. And actually that's something the Timp paradox says that if you meet five people, there'll be one or two, you'll just never get on with.

And so it's not just that you're being judged by the doctor. You know, you're judging the doctor as well. So already have pearls. It's just freak you out a bit and you're not really. And that's just human life, isn't it? And I think that's what's really important is that people know that there's always a second opinion. there's alternatives and it might be you know i've got a doctor in my surgery that i would go to if i had problems with my migraines and it would be a different doctor if i had problems with my big toe or whatever you know and so everyone's got special interests and that's the other thing it's always worth if someone's booking an appointment to ask a receptionist is there a doctor or a nurse or a clinician who's more interested in the menopause and try and talk to them

because that can really help actually can't that that's actually you know the memory that i had when I phoned up, you know, with the fire in the belly going, can I speak to you, menipause specialist? And the receptionist says, they all specialize in menipause. I'm like, great, but she was just fobbing me off because they didn't. And I was like, I'm sure you're lying to me, but I spent an hour with one of their GPs. Now, that's a privilege to be in for an hour. It's convincing me that I had fibromyalgia.

I'm still on a reprogramming course at the moment for fibromyalgia. And I was going, okay, and this is where we were disagreeing. You know, it's behind his voice a thing going, yeah, fibromyalgia, and I'm going, but are you not actually even seeing that possibly this is the same symptoms as going through the menipause? Nope, it sounds like a fibromyalgia. So this is an hour. I'm trying to convince this GP about my own body that I believe this is to do with my hormones.

This is to do with menopause. Nope, fibromyalgia and I'm sorry. And I think that's very frustrating because I think women don't have the same voice as men. I'm really sorry to say this publicly, but I strongly feel that women are often not listened to. And I feel like if men were saying the same things, they would be listened to more and taken seriously. So I think it's very easy to blame our emotions, but also not listen. And women often know it's related to their hormones. You know, we're not stupid, actually.

And because we've had a lifelong of periods and knowing how our hormones are affecting our emotions and our physical state as well, there's a lot of women that yourself who know that it's related to their hormones, but you just don't know what to do about it and how all the pieces of the jigsaw fit together. So I think my sort of big thing really would be to say, well, why are you not considering my hormones rather than why you're considering it? Like let's sort the hormones out first and see what's left. And I think we really want to, like I said at the beginning, celebrate World Manipause Day. And I think we can't quite, we're not there yet, but hopefully in the next few years we can celebrate

that everyone has access to the right treatment because that would be the massive party that I would love. But I think today, maybe this year in 2021, we can celebrate that women have access to evidence-based information. We can celebrate that we're talking about it. And I think we can celebrate, I think, that women are joining together

and helping each other on this. And just for you two to come together and give up your time to do a podcast as a celebration because we're just doing it to help others, aren't we? And I think that's a really powerful thing that we probably didn't have a couple of years ago for, well, Menopause Day. Is there an emblem for it? I don't think there is. Maybe you should design one.

We could all wear badges or we could do something. Because, you know, I founded the Menopause charity and we're desperate to set up a helpline on that. So to really do that. So that's what we really want to fundraise for. And I totally agree. And I'm not saying us all menoples or women should go around with a badge all the time. but I feel like it is a bit of a coming out thing, isn't it? And it's being able to talk about it and not be judged.

Yeah, precisely. Yeah, double coming out. But it's not being judged, actually. And it's about it being positive. And you're absolutely right. If you look at gay pride, it's a massive celebration of your sexuality. It's wonderful. And it's bringing everyone together.

Whereas before, it's been shame almost. And why? Why is it? It's ridiculous. That's another conversation for another time. But it is absolutely crazy. And the same way. menopause, why have we not been allowed to talk about it? We should be celebrating. And for a lot of

us, it's great. We've lived long enough that we have got to the stage. And if, you know, those people that for the end of their fertile lives can be very difficult, but for some people, it's great. And actually, to not have periods, it's completely liberating in my mind. But we should be celebrating. But I think we should be celebrating the community that we're all developing, which is great. So I want to thank you both for your time and honesty, actually, because it's quite a big thing talking openly. about your own experiences. So thank you for that. So just to finish, I don't know if you've heard my podcast,

but we always do three take-home tips. And I realise there's two of you, so I'm going to ask you for two each. I'm going to be really greedy because it's Well, Manipause Day, but we can have for two each, so we have four in total. So what I wanted to do is just ask you two reasons each why you would think we should celebrate World Menopause Day.

So, Melanie, can I put you on the spot and ask for two for you first? Because it's educating. and giving support to women who probably don't know much or think that it's them. There's a problem with them. And really they're just going through a normal life transition. Brilliant. So what's about you, Grace?

You know, I made a note of this because I know that you kind of like ask about it. And I say, you know, a lack of everything is making it negative. Okay, that's the way I feel. I just want women to be ready to know and to be ready for this because it's inevitable for everybody. You're not getting away with this. You're not walking away from it. But it's about embracing it and living with it and being empowered around it.

And then that's when I went to the what does empowerment look like. And I think it would be about every woman to be ready. And I'd love to see chemists with pharmacists being, you know, dropping centres for women. It's just, I would really love to see that. So my takeaway from that is for all of us to be ready and to come together, regardless of sexuality, religion, whatever, for all of us to all come together and support each other. So that's my takeaway from it. That's what I would really for us all to be ready. Yeah. I think those are really powerful messages and it's about unity, isn't it, and definitely solidarity and being together and really helping.

And I've got a dream of having a menopause bus that we can go around and park outside Asda and Tesco's and people can drop. in. So I just need a bit of money. So if any of you've got any money hiding behind the sofa, donate it to the charity and we can have a charity. And in that bus. That must will be packed. We need an end. Yeah. Well, this is the thing. Even the help line, it would just need an army of people, but there's, you know, there's lots of volunteers that want to. So I think the time's right to really go for it and help as many women as possible. So thank you again, and Grace for your time. It's been great and happy Menopause Day to everyone that's listening. Thank you as well. Thank you. Thank you, Grace. Yeah, thank you. Thanks very

Thank you. For more information about the perimenopause and menopause, please visit my website, balance hyphen menopause.com, or you can download the free balance app, which is available to download from the App Store or from Google Play.