The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 123 - The Menopause Revolution with Carolyn Harris MP

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

Carolyn Harris MP left school at 16, had two children at a young age and worked as a barmaid. Her young son, Martin, was tragically killed in a road accident in 1989 and this changed her life forever. She sank into a black hole for the next few years but turned things around when at 34 she became the first person in her family to go to university. Carolyn never dreamt that 20 years later she would be the MP for her community, Swansea East, and although she continues to experience imposter syndrome regularly, once she has decided to fight for change, she does not give up. Carolyn has campaigned on topics such as child funerals and gambling. She did not realise her collection of health problems were related to the menopause at first, but when she joined the dots and learnt more about the effects of the menopause, especially in the workplace, she set up an All Party Parliamentary Group on menopause and was successful in changing the law in Wales in removing the prescription fee for HRT.   Carolyn’s advice to women: Be part of the menopause revolution. Find us on social media, there’s a template letter on the APPG website so you can write to your local MP, and contact my office or on Twitter if you’d like to get involved. Join us in London in Parliament Square for the Menopause Support Bill on the 29th Dreams can come true. Don’t think you can’t achieve something. You are brilliant and strong. You can be what you want to be, you just need to be brave. We are using our platforms to call for change, but you can go into your place of work, talk about your own experience, ask others about theirs, say ‘do you think this could be the menopause?’   Carolyn Harris MP details: Website: www.carolynharris.org.uk Twitter  @carolynharris24 and @AppgMenopause Email: [e-mail]

Hello, I'm Dr Louise Newsome and welcome to my podcast. I'm a GP and menopause specialist and I run the Newsome House Menopause and well-being centre here in Stratford-Bron-Aven. I'm also the founder of the Menopause charity and the menopause support app called Balance. On the podcast, I will be joined each week by an exciting guest to help provide evidence-based information and advice about both the perimenopause and the menopause. So today I'm very, very excited because I have with me, Carolyn Harris, who's very kindly given up her time on a Sunday morning to talk to me about the menopause. So thank you very much, Carolyn. My pleasure, Louise.

So I've been aware of your work for a while and like a lot of people, I just end up stalking them. And I don't know how I managed to do it, but I managed to get in touch with them and then have the most amazing conversation. And Carolyn is one of the most inspirational women that I've ever met and spoken to because she's very determined, which I like in women. She doesn't take no for an answer. And things haven't been easy for her.

And I think it's very easy when you see people who are at the sort of peak of their career, I think how easy life has been. We've all got stories and a lot of them we don't share, but some of them we do. And I think that makes us more determined actually as women. If we've had easy backgrounds, then we sit and rest on our laurels a bit

and most of us haven't had easy backgrounds. And neither is Carolyn. So thank you for coming today. Pleasure. So just let's set the scene, really, because when your name is in the media, it's equalled with free prescriptions, menopause. But it's not always been like that, has it?

So just can you talk us through sort of what your career's been like and how you've got to where you are? Okay. Left school at 16 at my first child by the time I was 20, my second child when I was 25. During this time, I was a barmate. Right. And then in 1989, worst possible thing in the world happened.

Then my first child, Martin, was run over and killed. And I just went like for three years in a black hole, didn't take any kind of antidepressants, fought it off, but you never fight it off. It stays with you. But I think it's one of those life-changing situations. It either makes or breaks you. And I had a decision to make, which was my first decision was, did I stay or did I go to be with Martin, decided to stay because I had Stewat, who was only three at the time.

And then when I came out of a black hole, thought, right, well, if I'm going to stay, I need to be productive and I need to do something which makes life worth living. Ended up going to university when I was 34. First person in my family, first person in my street. I think I was probably the first person in the local community to go to university. And I really thought I was something special, you know, with the university scarf. The full work loved it.

but I didn't do the nightlife, obviously, because I was coming home to my family. So I got my degree, ended up working in social inclusion, working with children's cancer charity. I've always been political. I mean, since I was eight, I was putting up poses in my window at the polling station taking numbers. Politics has always been in my life. Never, ever, ever, ever dreamt in a million years that I would be that person. My then-MP, Donald Anderson, was someone I had on a huge, huge pair to still have. and when he decided to stand down

and people were saying, are you going to go for this? I'm like, God, no, I could never do that job. Oh my God, no, I don't know enough. I'm not bright enough. I'm not clever enough. I'm not articulate enough. And I was like that all throughout university, by the way,

massive imposter syndrome. And then somebody else went for it. They got the seat. I ended up working for her for 10 years when she decided to stand down. I thought, well, I know a bit more now than I did before. I'm going to go for this. and I went for it and I became the MP in 2015

and the first thing I did was to campaign to make children's funerals free in the United Kingdom because when I lost Martin, we just couldn't afford to pay for his funeral. So I think that sort of losing Martin changed me and it made me the person I am now and it's also made me very stubborn that I know that if it's achievable

then I'm not giving up until I do achieve it and I've done that with the children's funeral I'm doing it with gambling. Menopause is something that's been really huge in my life, but I didn't realise how huge until quite recently. But I'll tell you about that if you want, over to you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it just shows, you know, that you can always do something. Because I remember you said to me about one of your teachers. What did your teacher say that your career should be? Right. So I had this mad dream when I was in school that I wanted to be

a doctor. I had this thing. I wanted to be a doctor. And I remember going to the career teacher and saying, you know, that time when you're going to be talking about, well, you're going to be taking your options and whatever. And she said, well, what do you want to do, Carolyn? And I said, well, I really want to be a doctor. I've always wanted to be a doctor. And she just said, come on, now, let's be realistic. There are plenty of factory jobs out there.

And I think that was the start of the imposter syndrome. Because ever since then, I was like, it's okay to dream, but as long as you realize, you know, you're only dreaming and you don't ever really expect it to happen. Yeah. But, you know, anyone who knows me and knew me all my life. would have said for me to be a politician, the eight-year-old me, who was obsessed with elections,

would have been so, so impressed that I would become a politician. But I love it. It's amazing, isn't it? And I think that sometimes the reverse psychology works really well. I went to boarding school from the age of 10, so I was year six, and my dad had just died,

and it was awful. And I always wanted to read medicine, right, from the very start. And then I looked at everyone, and I looked to see where people have gone to university and what degrees they're done and hardly anyone from my school had done medicine at all. And I just thought, I just can't do it. I just never going to be able to do it. I'm just going to have to go and read physics or chemistry.

I'll do something else and be desperately unhappy and that I managed to get a scholarship for another school for six form and that was the real turning points for everything. But it's very easy. And I have complete imposter syndrome as well. So it's good and it's bad having imposter syndrome. But I think it means you don't rest on your laurels. I'm not here thinking, wow, I'm so good. I just think, oh, I've got so much to do and this is awful and I haven't achieved this and

that and the other. And I think it's very interesting because I don't think many men have imposter syndrome. No, definitely not. I mean, people say to me, and you did it in the intro, or you did this and people say, I'm a whirlwind and I'm like, I just cringed. My toes are curling. I'm thinking, oh, please don't say that. Tell me, I've got a nice dress.

Tell me you like the colour of my hair. And I'm like, oh, thank you very much. Tell me something that you think is good about me as a person. And I'm just so, so cringed embarrassed. It's awful. And that's me. It's me. I'm never going to change.

But I think that's a great quality because then it means you don't rest on your laurels and you don't think about how good you are because no one is 100% bad. I definitely believe that. But I also think no one is 100% good. We can always do better or we can change or improve or we can work together or we can do something or find better out of other people as well. And that's a lot of things that I think you're doing with your work. And I'm certainly doing it is trying to bring people together.

also try and improve everyone. So they're listening more. So they're making changes. And that's something that a few years ago, I just think it would never have happened in the menopause. I remember going to a Department of Health meeting with Dame Sally Davis, who was the chief medical officer, as you know. And I remember saying, I really feel we need to look after our NHS staff because 40% of those are menopause or women. And we know around 20% of women are leaving their workplace. This obviously was before COVID, before people were really exhausted. what are we going to do? Let's just look after ourselves first. Oh, yes, yes, we need to do it. We need to do it. But then there were lots of other people on this big table with me and most of

them were older than me and most of them actually hadn't really spoken to men orples women and saying, well, we just need to get them to exercise more. We need to get them to eat better. And I said, oh, what about HRT? And they said, well, no, that's just we don't like HRT. And it was a real and that was the end of really the meeting. And I thought, oh, this is a real shame actually, but now, you know, it's so different. And not only we talk about the menopause, we're talking about HRT being free. And I know in Wales, obviously, it is free, but it's not in the UK. So why did you decide to start doing something in the menopause space? Well, on a personal level, in 2010, I had a really, well, I know now I had a really big gynecological operation. I bled

non-stop for nearly a year. I kept passing out. It was horrendous. And eventually, my to my doctor who sent me to the hospital, and I ended up having massive fibroids removed. And I never saw again after that. And then that was in the November, by the December, I just kept going deeper and deeper into a black hole. I literally ended up in a pink an anoract with a hood up. I couldn't go shopping. I was terrified people who were looking at me. And so I self-diagnosed, as a lot of women do, and said, I'm having a nervous breakdown.

So I went to my GP, oh, I've got to say, was absolutely fantastic. but I didn't tell him about all the symptoms. I only told him that I was anxious, I was depressed, I didn't know what I was going in my life, and it was just awful. So I diagnosed myself as having a nervous breakdown. I had cognitive behaviour therapy and I ended up going on antidepressants.

So seven months later, the antidepressants are kicked in and I was getting better, went back to work. And it was a useful episode because it did give me a bit of courage. I know that sounds really strange, but, you know, it did give me a bit more courage, because I could have been a doormat. And at certain times, during the run up to those years, I had become a bit of a doormark for other people. So I started challenging and I started saying, no, I'm sorry, what did you mean by that? And I just wouldn't take any crap. And I think that gave me the strength that by the time I did become the MP, I was in a position where I still don't think that I am what other people think I am.

but I am Bolshe. I'm Garby, as I like to say. But I'm not Garby in a negative way. I'm Garby when I know something needs to change and I know that I've got the resource or the platform to do that. So anyway, being on antidepressants for all this time, never thought about it being the menopause. I never connected having to lay down in the attic

and in an open window because I couldn't stand the heat. I never connected the fact that my nails didn't grow, they were breaking. I never connected the most. food swings. I never connected the weight gain, all the things that you can imagine. I never connected them together. I locked at each one of them as individual. If I had stestitis, I had the status. I didn't put it down to potentially menopausal. So I blame myself for that, but I think I'm like a lot of women that we just part up with it. You know, this is what happens.

And I didn't know about the menopause. I mean, I think I've told you before, Louise, but I can remember my mother's sisters and my mother having a conversation about one of my who was obviously going through the menopause, but they set me out the room because they didn't want to be talking about that in front of me. I was 36. No, I had kids. I was in university. But, oh, Caroline don't know you know that.

So just never knew about it. Nobody talked to me about it except Les Dawson on telly when he'd have that sketch with Roy Barcliffe and he'd lift his left breast up and at all, she's on the change. I did not really understand what it meant. And it was only sort of the last five years. years when I was terrified to come off antidepressants because I was terrified I was going to go back to the pink cult and I was putting other things together I was talking to other women we started celebrating international men opposed day in the House of Commons and every year we'll have a debate

and every year people will share their story or they'll say supportive things right across the house right across the genders and then we'd only earn everybody again till the following year and about two years ago, I thought we need to stop talking and we need to start acting. And we started asking for things like I'd started saying that would have been on the curriculum in schools. I started saying that we needed better training for doctors. I started talking about workplace practices need to be improved and whatever. But nothing happens. We just keep talking about it. So about six months ago, I decided we were going to set up an APPG, all party parliamentary group, to specifically look at all the different areas of men, approach, that we needed to change.

which is everything. Let's be honest about it. It's everything. I'm not just in this country. It's globally. Nobody gets it right. Totally. And why in APPG? Because as an opposition MP, I'm not in a position in the government to influence. But I have succeeded to get legislation through. Children's Funerras, I just did that on my own. But on the gambling work I do, we did it through an APPG. So that was cross party, that was getting the professionals in. It was getting the affected in. and it was talking to them, it was making recommendations, and we have been successful in that.

So I thought, we've done it before, let's try this on menopause. So we were in the process of setting this up when I got a private member's bill. And private members bill is really sought after. There's only 20 are actually drawn every year, which are guaranteed to get heard. And I got number three, which meant, not only am I guaranteed to get it heard,

there's a bloody good chance, so I'm going to get something done about it. And everybody was saying, do this, do that. And I kept saying, no, I want to do menopause. I want to do menopause. But, you know, my experience tells me that to get it through, it needs to be simple, compact. One government department,

so you're not having to have those conversations across Whitehall. I was thinking of all the things I wanted to do. I'm thinking about workplaces. And I thought, well, actually, workplaces could do this themselves and unions could help them. I thought about GP training and thought, well, that's up to the medical schools. It's not really the government's job.

I thought about all these things. And then I was having a conversation with a friend who was going to pick up at HRT. And she said it was going to cost her 40 quid. And my initial reaction was, well, how is it costing you 40 quid? And she said, oh, because there's two packets. So there's two hormones and each packet. I said, yeah, but why is it costing you 40 quid? And she said, well, each packet is two prescriptions.

And I said, yeah, but why is it costing you 40 quid? She says, that's the price of prescriptions. And it was like a light going on. I thought, my God, we don't pay for prescriptions in Wales. So I thought that's the simplest thing to do and that's what I've gone. So HRT calling for it to be free has really been the hock to get the attention and the world has listened. All of a sudden, though, people across the world are saying the British government or the British Parliament and are talking about menopause and they are going to do something about it. So this is literally a golden opportunity for the UK government and the UK Parliament to change.

how the world feels men oppose. And I am determined to make sure where that'll happen. Global domination, Louise. That's what we want. Well, absolutely. I mean, my mission, as you might know, Carolyn, is to improve the global health of women. And it's quite a huge thing. And actually, someone, one of the non-executive directors of the company, Marcus Daley, who I know very well, he's a friend as well as a great business mentor. I said to me, Louise, slow down. You can't help everyone. And when someone says you can't, that means you can in my book. Of course you can. So now I keep texting him things, you know, articles that I'm in or how we've reaching over 150 countries with our free app balance. And he's like, oh, Louise, you're going to prove me wrong. And it's like, I am actually. Because why is it that some women are allowed to get their menopause sorted and others aren't? It doesn't make sense to me, Carolyn. It just doesn't, it shouldn't be about many. It shouldn't be about socioeconomic status. It shouldn't be about where you live. It shouldn't be about what country you're from or what language you speak. We're all women.

And we all deserve the best in my mind because we've got evidence out there. So I think it's amazing. And actually, in England it is very hard. You can get prepayments and it costs about £10 a month for prepayments. But that's still money. And also, you know, like we've said before, other hormones are free. So if I had an underactive thyroid gland, I would be able to not just get free thyroxin. I'd get free any other prescription as well.

And it is an issue because there are obviously people with asthma can't get their inhalers for free. But we have to start somewhere. And I think, you know, what Wales do with free prescriptions is incredible. But also what it is doing this conversation is making people just think about the three letters, HRT. And actually that hopefully will prompt them to go and look up. What is it? What does it mean? And is it safe and is it safe for me?

And in fact, this morning I was reading the information on NHS's website again. And I've approached them again because it's wrong and it's talking about risks and it's not talking about all the benefits. And as you know, the benefits of HRT outweigh the risks for many women. And talking about your awful experience is so common. And I was exactly the same. All my symptoms I had in isolation. Even when I was developing the Menopause Doctor website,

I'm trying to work late at night, but I'm too tired. So I'm getting up in the middle of the night because I can't sleep. And I'm writing about poor sleep, anxiety, low mood, stamina problems. I'm getting all those. Didn't even realise it was me as a peri menopause. 45-year-old woman as I was there. It was just shocking as I'm a menopause specialist. So we need to join the dots.

We need to think about it. But what about you? Do you mind me asking you personally? Are you managing to improve with your symptoms improved? Or have you done anything about it now, you know? Well, I... Now that I know it's a menopause, I mean, and I think I thought I was through it. I don't think I really realised what benefits having HRT could do.

So I went on HRT over in the last few months. and what I'm doing is I'm taking HRT, which is magnificent. I've got to say, I mean, I've never had nails in my life. I've got nails now. My hair grows really fast, so my hairdresser keeps having to cut it. But my skin is better. I feel better. I'm more positive, you know, and I'm waning myself off antidepressants

because I'm not to sleep with enough just to come off them. No, absolutely. And eventually I'm open within maybe taking you. I don't know, but I'm open. I won't be taking antidepressant. But it has been life-changing for me. I mean, frightening for some people because people say, oh gosh, you've got so much energy.

Well, I've got a lot more now. And that is frightening for some people. And it's given me confidence. Because I now take HR, and I feel the benefit, I'm now confident to say to other people, try it. And if you can't get your doctor to prescribe it, for shame.

And if it's come to the worst, I'll come with you to the doctor. Yes. And I'm finding now a lot more people are actually saying, oh, I want to go on HRT. And I'm astounded by how many women, friends and outside who I've never met. And I'll email me or phoning me or writing to me and saying, I'm going to push my doctor for HRT. Because it is an answer.

Not for everyone. Yeah, but I think you're absolutely right. And it is having the confidence. And certainly on the Menopause Charity website, we've written a leaflet about how to get the most out of your GP consultation. And with the balance app, there's a health report. People can download with all the symptoms. So all those symptoms you were getting in isolation, your low-man. mood, your cystitis, your joint pains or whatever, it's all there listed. So when you go to your

doctor or nurse or healthcare professional, you go with this health report and say, these are my symptoms, these are my periods if you're having them because it tracks your periods. And I've read about HRT and I'd actually like it. And then that's taken 10 seconds. So you have nine minutes, 50 seconds to actually talk about treatment. And that actually really empowers the healthcare professionals. And as you know, I'm working as an NHS advisor for the National Menopause Program. And one of One of the ways they're really listening is talking about costs that they could save. And so I did a survey through my not-for-profit company looking at how many consultations did it take women to get a diagnosis.

So we're not even talking about treatment, just a diagnosis of the perimenopause or menopause. And we found that 10% of women took at least nine GP appointments. So if women could do that themselves and it could just go down to one or even at worst two appointments, that would save 750,000 appointments in general practice a year. That's a lot, isn't it? But the other thing we also did is I introduced someone on the board to talk to one of my patients who could have been any number of the thousands of women I see or speak to. So 10 years ago, she had given up her job because she worked as an accountant

and she didn't have the memory and the mind to think about the figures and to get up every day and to just have that mental agility that she needed. So she decided to then work as a vet's, receptionist, because she thought it'd be an easier job, but she kept forgetting her passwords. She couldn't remember anything, and she felt really embarrassed, so she gave up that job and became a cleaner, just cash in hand cleaner, but her muscle and joint pains were so bad that she gave up work completely. She'd been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, depression, migraines, the current urinary tract infections. She'd been seen numerous

specialists in the secondary care for her investigations for her palpitations, for her bladder problems for her headaches, so da-da-da-da, so on. And she's had a cupboard full of drugs. So what we did is we put into a spreadsheet the cost of every single medication, every single investigation, every single consultation. Because as you know, once someone's referred to hospital, it's a lot more expensive for the NHS. And then we looked at her personal cost, so she wasn't paying in any tax. She wasn't paying any nursing insurance. And then, actually, I saw her in the clinic three months later, just having Barry Boggs standard HR2, that's available on the NHS, three months later, she said, my goodness me, I never had fibromyalgia, I've never had chronic

fatigue, I've certainly have never had depression, I've thrown all my medication away, I'm now looking for a new job and she told me actually last week that she'd got a job and she's actually looking at a promotion. And it was only because her mum had heard me talk something on the radio and her mum paid for the consultation because this poor lady obviously had no money because she wasn't working. And so what the government have done or what the NHS have done is they've worked out if 1% of women are like her, and I think it's a lot. more actually, you could save the NHS hundreds of millions of pounds a year. I mean, it's not just a little bit of money. It's a huge amount of money. And, you know, that's massive when we're talking

about a cash-strapped NHS, isn't it? And we're also thinking about women losing their jobs and everything else. So it's really good that they're listening in those ways as well. So I think if you think, oh, how much money is HART going to cost the NHS? It's pennies, actually, isn't it? In comparison to what they're losing. And I think that's what we have to look at as well. And then, you know, you've talked about your personal benefit, but actually you're far less likely to have an osteopotic hip fracture, which costs the NHS three billion pounds a year for the hip fractures. You're less likely to have a heart attack. You're less likely to have dementia. And even all different types of cancers you're less likely to have because estrogen's so protective

in our bodies. So you're not going to be draining the NHS in that way either. So it's sort of win-win, isn't it really. Yeah, it is win-win. And when you were talking there, I got to thinking about will I ever not be depressed? And I don't think I'll ever not be depressed, but my depression is grief.

Yes, of course it is. And it stays with me forever. So maybe depression is the wrong words, but it's not depression that I needed to be on antidepressants, but I become dependent on them because they were what was driving me to actually get up in the morning

and to do anything. Well, that's the thing. And there's two things who really, I mean, one thing is we did as another survey through my not-for-profit company and we found that 77% of women have been either offered or given antidepressants for their low mood associated with their menopause. There's no evidence that works. But we also, on the other side, there are a lot of women who do have clinical depression, but they're also perimenopausal and menopausal. And we know actually that antidepressants work better

if women have got estrogen on board. So you can have both. And some women, like yourself, you might be able to wean off. Others don't. They keep on both, but that's fine. It's like saying you've got a headache, I take paracetamol, but I'm also menopausal, so I'll take HRT. So it's really important and it's so important that, you know, psychiatrists, anyone that's seeing any adult women actually has the understanding training and everything else so that they can be alerted to the fact, oh, is this maybe? Could she be menopausal? How are we going to advise and help her? And that's really important too, isn't it? Very. And I think what's really brilliant about where we are now, the current time, real time, is that every day I see something in the paper on the TV,

on social media, talking about the menopause. Now, we didn't do this five years ago. Now, all of a sudden, and I don't think it's because I'm more attuned to it. I think it's genuinely, it sounds down more. Yeah. It is definitely changing. And I know when the National Institute of Health and Care Excellence Guidelines came out in 2015, so now six years ago, I went to a menopause conference in Prague, actually.

It was International Menopause Society conference. And I sat there. And I listened to all these very learned professors saying how safe HR is and how good it is and how, you know, and I sat there and thought, well, women aren't getting it. What can I do? And I thought, well, I'm not a professor. I can't run a research unit. I can't even get a job in the NHS as a menopause specialist.

What can I do? And I thought, actually, I'm going to play with the media. I'm going to get myself onto Lorraine Kelly's sofa. I'm going to get myself with some journalists. And I'm going to just spread the message that way because the media have been fed wrong information for the last 20 years. So it's not their fault. But I feel like actually, if I get something in the Daily Mail or,

in the sun or the telegraph or the Times or something in newspaper, it's actually read more than if I had an academic publication in The Lancet. Yeah. It is what it is. But actually, and I also very strongly feel, as I'm sure you're aware, earlier this year, nice again brought out another guideline called the shared decision-making guidance. And I think that is pivotal and so important for menopause care and perimenopause care

because it's about choice. You know, I am not telling you what you need to eat for breakfast. You decide that because you're an adult consenting woman. It's the same with your menopause care. It's up to you what you do, but you have to base your decision on choice, but also backed by evidence. And then me as a healthcare professional can advise patients and say, well, actually, it's probably not so good for you to smoke 20 cigarettes a day for your breakfast, carolin. But if you want to do that, as long as you're aware of the risks, you know, and it's the same even with prescribing. You might refuse something.

You might refuse to take paracetamol for your headache. You know, that's up to you. And it's the same with HRT. you could refuse it or you could say I want it. And as long as that's based on self-judgment, that's fine. And it's options, isn't it? It's having the opportunity to be able to get something. But we need to get more doctors prescribing.

We need to get more doctors understanding that they may be sending people for tests they needn't. But it all links back to the same thing, isn't it? Women, for too long, have been silent and we're not going to be silent anymore. And I'm calling it a menopause revolution. And you are menopause warrior, number one, along with Divina, but there's other women and I think what's really good is that we are I'm a normal ordinary working class woman

if I wasn't doing the job I was doing I probably wouldn't be on HRT because I wouldn't have had the opportunity to make the link so we are giving women information which otherwise they would be busy night we are giving women the confidence to say I deserve to have that and I want it and we're all in a position to use our platform

to make sure that the right people you're the right message and do the right thing And that's what I'm all about is making sure that the opportunity for women to have the respect, the dignity and the treatment that may help them. We've got to do that for them. We can't be silent anymore. We need to save jobs. We need to save careers. We need to save marriages.

We need to save relationships. There's so many things that we can save and stop women from being on the scrap heap and sitting in corners rocking. Because that's what ends up with some women. And I'm determined to change that. No, can you imagine? I always sometimes think, can you imagine what the world be like if every woman who wanted to take HRT took it? Because it would be a very different place. So I just want to publicly thank you, Carolyn, for your work because it is incredible and I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens over the next year.

And I'm very grateful also for you giving up your time on a Sunday morning to talk to me. So just before we finish, I always ask people for three take-home tips that I haven't warned you about. But I would like you to say three tips actually for women that is going to just make. a difference to their future life. What would you think three things. If women are wanting to be part of the menopause revolution and want to feel that they're part of this, what would you say would be good for them to do? Well, being part of the revolution is the easy bit because it's all on social media, it's in the papers. I mean, there is a template letter available on the APPG website, but I mean, contact my office or contact me on Twitter, a template letter to send to your

MP to make sure they're there on the 29th, so we get people in the chamber. Come and join us if you can in London, that'd be wonderful. Dreams can come true. And any woman out there who sit in there thinking, I want to be this, but I can't be this because I'm not strong enough. I'm not well enough. I'm not intelligent enough. Rubbish.

We are all brilliant people. Every woman, every man, but every woman out there is a brilliant woman. She's strong. She's got perseverance. She's got character. And they can be what they want to be. They just need to be brave. And lastly is we are changing what we are changing from that platform.

But even if it's already going into work and talking to the girls in work and saying, you know, do you think this could be the men of course? Talk about what it is that you'd experience it. I am amazed that how many women are now opening up to me. I mean, a funny story that I did a meeting recently and this lovely woman, I was really pleased that I nails her now long. And she was talking with the lack of libido. And then she sort of ended it with, mind, I haven't seen.

husband's really for a long time. Well, that just cracked me up. I mean, the fact that women are now talking so openly and so normally about the most intimate things in life, not that we want to know their private business, but we're not afraid to talk about it anymore. You know, the taboo is lifted. And now we've listed the veils, we've got to do something about this and the revolution is marching on. Absolutely brilliant. And I think that's it. We don't need to be silent anymore. And more importantly, we're being listened to. So it's really exciting. I'm really looking forward to what happens over the next few months. And for those women who are really struggling,

there's lots of information on my website, on the Menopause charity website, through the free balance app. And just make sure you get listened and just let others help you as well. Don't do it on your own because it can be a very lonely place if you're there on your own. So make sure you get heard and listen to. And so thank you ever so much for your time today, Karen. And I'm going to have you back in the podcast in a few months so you can report back

what's been happening. So thank you. Thank you. For more information about the perimenopause and menopause, please visit my website, balance-manopause.com, or you can download the free balance app, which is available to download from the App Store or from Google Play.