The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 191 - Workplace menopause advice from lawyer Emma Hammond

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

Emma Hammond is a lawyer with gunnercooke LLP specialising in employment law. Often assuming the role of Investigating or Grievance Officer, Emma leads enquiries into complex bullying, harassment and discrimination complaints for individuals and organisations. Emma has an interest in mental health and its impact on the workplace and she incorporates as much pro bono work into her practice as possible, specialising in advising women who have suffered discrimination due to the menopause. In this episode, Emma chats to Dr Louise Newson about the effects of the menopause at work, the intricacies of legal protections for women suffering professionally because of menopausal symptoms, and they discuss some positive examples of working in a menopause confident organisation. Read more about Emma Hammond here.

Hello, I'm Dr Louise Newsome and welcome to my podcast. I'm a GP and menopause specialist and I run the Newsome Health Menopause and Wellbeing Centre here in Stratford-Bron-Avon. I'm also the founder of the Menopause charity and the menopause support app called Balance. On the podcast, I will be joined each week by an exciting guest to help provide evidence-based, information and advice about both the perimenopause and the menopause. On the podcast today, we're going to talk about something that is very, very common, actually, about the effect of menopause and perimenopause in the workplace.

So I've got with me, Emma Hammond, who I've known for a little while now, actually, who's a lawyer and doing a huge amount of work in this area. So welcome Emma today. Thank you, Louise. So a few years ago, if I'd met you maybe 10, 15 years ago, how different is your job now to how it would have been 15 years ago? And if I'd said to you the word menopause, what would it have conjured up 15 years ago? That's a really good question. So 15 years ago, let me do the maths. I was 37. So I knew about the menopause from my mum. I knew that

she started around the age of 50 by fainting in the office. Gosh. That was her first indication. And I was asking questions then around when it happened to her to think, when it might happen to me, I'd only had my first child at 36. I was very much in the new month phase rather than it thinking about what hormones may do to me regarding the perimenopause. But work-wise, absolutely nothing happening that gave me an indication that women were experiencing issues in the workplace around menopause and perhaps being treated differently. Yeah, which is interesting because if I admit you, I would have been the similar age, with both similar ages. So in my late 30s, I didn't even know.

I didn't really think about symptoms. And the only symptoms I was really taught about was about hot flushes and sweats. But it's more about night sweats. So I think, well, that's nighttime symptoms, actually. So I hadn't really thought about it either. It's quite something, isn't it? And I think now it is spoken about more, which is great. But there are still, and I've read a lot of journalists saying,

oh, women just need to sort themselves out. They just need to stop complaining. Are we going to be looking after people now who've got ginger hair or people who have got other, you know, problems? For goodness sake, it happens to all. It's just a natural transition. And then I also speak to other women who say, well, I'm menopausal now, so I can't go for a job promotion,

or I need to move differently in my career, or I need to reduce my hours. And that's fine because I'm menopausal. It's all a bit wrong. It is. And I think what I've found, So I joined Gunma Cooks and my work, my working life has changed significantly in the last six years. And in fact, I joined this firm to assist myself in managing my menopause and my migraines,

particularly something I've seen with you about. And so kind of my own journey has led to me looking into how I can help others because typically working as a lawyer in a private practice environment is pretty tough. And lots of women I know stopped fee earning because they couldn't balance it with being a mother, and latterly being a carer perhaps and also managing menopause. So all those things have led to a gender imbalance at partner level. And it was something I was asking myself, can I continue to fear with all the demands I've got at home? And so an opportunity came up in Gummer Cook.

And just to explain a little bit about the firm, because it does impact on how I work now in the menopause arena as well. The idea is it's very philanthropic in its setup, and we're all encouraged as lawyers to get. give back. So I'll talk about that again in a minute in relation to the menopause, but particularly the setup is like a barrister's chambers. So we're very much encouraged to be business people as well as lawyers. We fear in such a way that it's fee sharing with the firm. We manage our own business without chargeable targets. So when you then look at the gender balance,

I find it fascinating. We've now got 300 partners and we're almost 50-50 split. That's almost unheard of in a law firm. And it goes to show. that what women need is flexibility and ownership over their own businesses to be able to work how they want and how they need. So I've had various challenges, one of which was when my eldest son was diagnosed as epileptic and I had to take some time off work. And the firm was incredible in just allowing other colleagues to take my work off me and for me to concentrate on his health. No sickness absence, obviously because I work for myself, but the well-being support was phenomenal. and that's now translated into the menopause,

into all of the women that we have in our workplace, many of whom are 40 plus, a lot of managing all of these things within a fantastically thriving practice, which is how it should be. And it's so refreshing to see that I can do the job I love in a way that works with my health

and there's no shame in it. In fact, one time I've had some bereavements in the family and the owner of the business and co-founder actively ran me to find out that I was okay because they heard about it through other colleagues and said, you're working too hard, what can we do to help you? Now, that again, it probably happens in some law firms, traditional law firms, but I think it's pretty unusual. And so there's a fantastic kind of collegiate atmosphere,

which encourages people to create a life around the law rather than the law dictating the life that you leave. That's so incredible. And actually, very unusual for professions or any careers, actually. And I have got three children. Many people know, my husband's a surgeon. I don't rely on him. I've never relied on him for childcare.

But I don't have my family close. So it's always been really difficult. And I've actually always, up until now, chosen to work part-time because I can be there. I can go to harvest festivals. I could pick the children up from school, which is great. But then in the holidays, I needed to be part-time. So it was just easier and cheaper, actually, because. It's very expensive, isn't it?

When you've got more than one, especially more than one child looking at childcare. But then I've always wanted to work longer in the term, less in the holidays. And then, you know, if I have migraines and I can't go to work, I'm very happy to put that time back. I think flexibility in an organisation, actually you get so much more out of your staff. Because if I go to work with a migraine, I might as well just not bother because I can't speak. I slow my words. I can't think. Well, you know you have my mind.

migraines as well. Whereas if I have to go off sick, I feel like I'm a real failure, then I know I'm putting on my colleagues. And it has such a ripple effect. But this isn't just about for women, actually, is it? This is for men as well. Having a flexible workforce is really important because we've all got challenges, either they're personal or family or other things. And there are times, aren't there, where flexibility is key to keep people working. That's it. And I think that was recognized in the setup of this firm. Darrell Cook, who founded the first. firm, he was committed to trying to move to a place where he was so disheartened by how many unhappy lawyers he was meeting. He wanted to create a firm where lawyers were literally, just

very simply happier with what they were doing, with their lives, with their work. And to that end, on the philanthropic point that I mentioned earlier, he's hugely encouraging on us all giving back. We have Inspire, which is a part of our business, which is linked to charities. We help lots and lots of charities. And all of our lawyers who want to assist with these charities are put in for free. So again, pro bono element to the work so that we can help the charities thrive. And that's kind of led me to my menopause work because historically I had a lot of work in the mental health arena. I was on the steering group of Leeds Mind, part of the Mind charity. And I helped to a set of conferences in the city around the benefits of working for mental health.

And I did that for the tenure of four years that was the typical period. And then thought, what else can I do? And I was a school governor at my son's school for a while, but it wasn't giving me what I needed in relation to the kind of employment law aspect all the time, although some of it touched on that. And then I came to helping people with menopause discrimination issues at work, quite by chance, really. It was almost at the same time I started my own menopause journey.

A couple of people were referred to me and, in fact, a couple of queries through you as well. And suddenly thought, hang on a minute, this works well given that the Leeds mind work has dried up. And it fits with what I'm going through so I can very much empathise with these issues. And of course, at the time, I think you and I discussed that tribunals were starting to come through linked to menopause. I'd never seen that in my career before until about what must be sort of five, six years ago now. And it showed that obviously women are starting to break down that last taboo with mental health, I think being the one beforehand, particularly in the workplace, and realise they had rights and start to take advice. So it was then that I began to be committed to opening up that as my pro bono practice and talking about it a little bit more gaining momentum. And so that's where I've got to today.

And it's been fascinating to kind of follow that journey and to help people through. And I know you've seen some of the commentary of how that changed people's lives. And it's a wonderful thing to be able to be involved in, although still very sad that people are experiencing this. But again, with all the other workplace challenges and all the challenges around managing menopause, kind of not surprising. Yes. And talking earlier about how ignorant I was, in the true sense of the word, not knowing about the menopause and the impact on workplace. About seven years ago, I did a year's work, very privileged working with West Midlands Police, second largest police force. And I went there and

they really thought that I would be going to help them with their policies and their sort of HR, really, and to help them with reduced hours and flexible working, whatever. Well, I'm not that sort of person. I'm a clinician, as you know. So I said to them, look, all I can do is talk to you about the menopause, what it is, what it means, what the symptoms are, what the treatments are, how to look after yourself. And I went to the first meeting and there were lovely, lovely people there. But they were telling me how they were looking forward to retiring age 50, how they couldn't take their grandchildren to the park because their joints were so stiff, they couldn't put them on the swings, how they were going home and just collapsing on the sofa, how they couldn't go and work

on the beat anymore because walking was really difficult. So they had a sedentary office job, they'd put on weight, they were feeling really tired, the brain wasn't working. We did this big survey, and we found that the top three symptoms affecting people in the workplace were anxiety, memory problems and fatigue. Yet most of them, 78%, when directly questioned, didn't know that those symptoms could be related to their menopause,

yet they were menopause or women. And, okay, seven years ago, we weren't talking as much about the menopause then. And also, the majority of them had been signed off work when they had had time off work, they'd been signed off with depression, anxiety, migraines, never mention of the word menopause, even if they'd gone to their healthcare practitioner saying, you know, I think it's the menopause.

So they were there saying, well, this is my bag, this is me. And I just thought, goodness, this is awful. I had no idea, no idea what was going on. And so then now it's almost gone the other way because I think a lot of organisations are writing policies, They're giving this assisted workplace or they're reducing hours, which in my mind means reduce pay. But that's actually not always that helpful either. So tell me about some of the people that you've seen and helped, Emma. Yeah. So one of the biggest kind of negative reactions I'm seeing from employers is that they seem to lean towards performance management when they see symptoms, particularly like brain fog, fatigue clearly affects.

performance, concentration, insomnia and anxiety, all the things you just mentioned, are classically for people particularly working in professional jobs, sedentary desk-based, jobs where concentration is key for long periods of time. The ladies come to me with very much fear factor over losing their job and saying to me, I'm being performance managed, but in particularly one recent case, I've owned up, I've got early menopause because of some health issues. So this particularly lady was in her 30s. And I've had an occupational health report which says, yes, this is to do with early menopause. I need a specific temporary change to my working conditions as set out in the occupational health report. For example, some homeworking,

all the stuff we've been doing in COVID anyway, that should have been quite easy to put in place. simply as a reasonable adjustment, because this lady actually was disabled as defined in the Equality Act at the time anyway, through a different reason. And that this would have simply been in place until their GP and the occupational health team combined said the HRT was kicking in and things were improving. It was a very open dialogue and there was a hope that in being honest, this particular individual could have sought the right level of support. but instead of that, shockingly, the employer decided to put the person on a performance management program. Quite a tough one, which logically, when you see that the report says that the symptoms are linked to menopause, you're immediately looking at a red flag of discrimination. And at that point, she came to me. And in fact, the sickness absence was precipitated by the performance

management program, as you can expect. And we carried on talking. And I do a lot of ghost writing. So my presence often is very much hidden. I'm very conscious that if people who are having trouble at work suddenly have a lawyer pop up, whether I'm writing or whether it's, I'm contacting the employer, it can often be absolutely the wrong thing for the lady in question to be seen to be taking advice, even though it's their probative. So I'm always very sensitive to how I can help. And again, as I say, you know, I won't charge for this work, but I will work very carefully. so as they're getting the best value of my time. So I'll mirror the person's style if I write for them,

give them scripts for meetings, that kind of thing, and very much stay in the background to try and give them the power to feel their own process as well. And that's really important. I mean, I know a few of the ladies who you've helped. It's been very transformational. And it's also, it's giving them a voice. And as you know, a lot of people when they're perimenopausal,

their memory goes, their concentration, goes, their actual self-esteem can reduce as well. So you turn into this often person who's just a bit of a shell. And then if someone's telling you something, even if it doesn't feel right, it's very hard then to do a counter-argument. So to have this clear voice of reason, and you're really working as their legal advocate, aren't you, to sort of help empower them and shape discussions. But I think also, I'm not aware of any negative feedback, because I think it's actually really helpful for the employer as well to know where the person's coming from because it can be very hard for HR departments or occupational health departments to know

sometimes how best to help. And I think in the past that whole thing out of sight, out of mind, is a quick thing, isn't it? And it's not good. You know, I employ many, many women in my organisation and quite a few of them are menopausal. I want them to come to work the best version of themselves because selfishly I want to get the best out of them. But until we know what's going on, you can't help them. But having that legal voice, because there's something about lawyers that can make things so straight and black and white, and that's what you need when you've got this monkey noise,

monkey chatter in your brain and your menopausal. And you don't know what you're entitled to. I think that's the other thing that's really important, isn't it? Well, I think that's right on the entitlement point. What I try and do is set out the individual's rights, and we talk about that obviously behind the scene, and I simplify that as best as I can. And the challenge, of course, just talking about the law for a minute,

because it's certainly a hot topic as to whether or not the Equality Act goes far enough. And the Women and Equality's Committee presently are looking at making menopause a protected characteristic. And that seems to have stalled with all of the governmental challenges at the moment. clearly, unfortunately, it's gone down their list, which is a shame, but the campaign continues. And I think the issue is we have to be very creative as lawyers for claimants or for individuals pushing these issues and having these problems because there isn't a one-size-fits-all. And because there's no protected characteristic as per sort of age or gender, we have to say, okay, so what are we looking at?

And it sits quite uncomfortably to say menopause or the menopause symptoms are a disability. But that's one of the major starting points. So we look at the definition of disability and the Equality Act, which is a mental or physical impairment that Lasser is likely to last 12 months or the rest of the person's life and has a substantial or adverse impact on their ability to carry out the data to activities. So we break that down. But of course, you well know with your clinicians head on that the symptoms fluctuate.

So if an occupational health doctor or specialist is to look at an employee's symptoms, at one particular point in time, they may well say, well, although I'm not a judge and I can't actually decide whether there's a disability here, I don't think there is because the symptoms aren't severe enough, even though that lady is absolutely struggling to get out of bed and get to work. So it becomes almost too academic in its analysis. And of course, I will always argue that my client is disabled because I need to to maximize their position, because often the relationship's broken down and I have to negotiate a deal. So I will do that analysis and as best as I can establish that disability. But ultimately, the only body that can do that is a tribunal.

So in tribunal speak, we find the challenge for women in that place and I've looked at various cases where the stages that the lady has to go through were so arduous. They have to say they're disabled if they're pushing to claim. And then they have to go through a preliminary hearing to establish that disability with their employer arguing that they can't possibly be disabled and going through the law

when obviously even attending that hearing when they're in that space is incredibly difficult. And they've got to face criticism over well actually maybe, you know, you were just not good at your job, it wasn't these symptoms at all. And all this horrible stuff that you have to go through. And recently a female judge

said to preliminary hearing that she could absolutely see that all of the symptoms you cited at the beginning of this session, such as brain fog, insomnia, anxiety could amount to a disability. So we are getting somewhere. But of course, that's the first hurdle. The next point is the main hearing. So there's mostly, and I haven't gone to tribunal in any of my cases yet,

because really the best solution for the employer and the employees is to get them back to work and sort of dialogue and some mediation and start to move forward with reasonable adjustments. to settle, unfortunately, and accept that a new start is required for both parties, because we know that tribunals are incredibly stressful and quite destructive and not good for our party, you know. So we're looking at disability and the Equality Act, but then within that, we're looking at age, of course, that only works in some circumstances, and we're also looking at gender. Would a man be treated the same in the same scenario? And obviously a man can't go through the menopause.

So we look at the difference in treatment there as well. But again, you can see how you have to be pretty creative because there isn't a protected characteristic to make these things fit to your circumstances. And that's, again, if I'm speaking to somebody who's already struggling, that's a heck of a task to do together. It's absolutely huge. And I heard, and I don't know where you have as well, Emma,

that quite a few people say, well, don't you think the menopause or women will just use the menopause as an excuse? because they're underperforming at work. Now, I obviously hold women in high esteem. I hold everybody in high esteem, really, and I want to believe people, and I have not met a menopausal woman who does not want to feel better.

Yeah. I think one of the problems and the frustrations for me is knowing that there's so many people struggling in the workplace who are unable to access evidence-based treatment. So they're struggling needlessly, and that really horrifies me. And a lot of the work we're doing in the clinic to try and reduce costs to make things even easier to access,

evidence-based treatment is really crucial. We're sort of cranking it up this year. But I don't think anybody uses their symptoms. No one wants to have anxiety. No one wants to struggle with their memory. No one wants to have joint pain. No one wants to come into work saying, I'm menopausal, give me some extra help. Is that your experience as well? It is. And nobody wants a pay cut either, is it? No, absolutely not. You know, everybody wants to be the best they can be. Certainly that's what I've seen. And of course, going back to the lady that I helped who was very honest and open and obtained the occupational health report when she was struggling. Legally, it's very important that people are open with their

employer because actually the employer from a discrimination perspective could say, well, we didn't know, and therefore it's not discrimination, there needs to be knowledge. And so that dialogue is important. And if we can empower women to speak up, I know it's very difficult. But a lot of My clients, I work with a lot of businesses as well, obviously, around this. And there's some fantastic businesses out there. Yorkshire Water is one of them. They've had a menopause policy in place way before it was a thing. And I've been talking to them recently about helping them with some internal training.

They've got a menopause task force. They're very much ahead of, they were ahead, particularly of where we were years ago. But even now, they're doing brilliant work. And so where you've got employers that are having that conversation, there's an openness already. and there's a willingness. People who are struggling and coming through the ramps will feel, well, it's not embarrassing or difficult for me to raise this because it's accepted and I know I'll get support.

So already a barrier has been broken down before we started and you're expecting to be supported, which is great. And I think more of my clients, my long-standing clients, who I would help with other employment challenges, are coming to me because they've seen the work that I've been doing, also with menopause mandate and the campaign around that, to actually ask me for help and ask me to speak at events. So what is great is that employers are actually wanting to help people.

They're wanting to help their workforce and get the best out of them. And also they're wanting to educate the male members of staff, as they should, because they'll be other managers or they'll have partners or wives, people they want to help in their own lives. So all of that is very encouraging. But I think we just need to establish a situation where it's not frowned upon, on to admit that you're struggling. And in fact, one of my very close friends who came to the rally in Parliament with me in October said she's at the similar age to me. It was interesting

because when she speaks to her male boss, he has no trouble saying, oh, I'm feeling a bit rough today, got a few symptoms from her, I don't know, a kind of a cold or flu, whatever it might be, I'm not going to be on my best form today, so bear with me. And that's not linked, obviously, to any life stage or any hormonal issues. Typically, it's just not on my best form, not feeling great. And she had a kind of a light bulb moment with that and thought, it's funny, isn't it, how because it's not linked to anything that may be taboo or maybe linked to a live stage, it might be easier for a man to admit that they're not on best form. But because when you reach a certain age, the kind of symptoms that you're talking about off-color, losing concentration,

had a bad night's sleep, are naturally now, particularly as we're talking about it, thought to be late to the menopause, women are more likely to just grit their teeth and not tell anybody and not feel they can open up to perhaps that male manager because they might be worried about their future or their promotion or how they're regarded in the workplace. And I think that's one of the issues that still needs to be addressed because there is that fear that some employers, such as the ones I have sometimes faced, will still think that, you know, because they're facing their own challenges with their own numbers and their bosses coming down on them, that their natural place to go to is performance management

because they can't see that there's any other solution. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's so important. It's this labelling, and you like you say, the taboo, that people misunderstand the menopause, and they're almost scared because they don't understand it. So we know, for example, back pain is a very common reason for taking time of work. Now, if I had time off for back pain, I wouldn't have to go and have an MRI scan. I wouldn't have to go and see the top back specialist to get a diagnosis.

I would be believed and I would have the time off that I needed. I might be able to get some physio through my work scheme or I might be able to see somebody through my work scheme. And it's just done. It's one of those things. And we know back pain is very common. You know, migraines, for example, I wouldn't have to be able to. have to have a brain scan, I could just go and get help. Something about the menopause, it's like, oh, hormones, women, oh my goodness, how long is

it going to last? Let's make it feel really awkward and uncomfortable. And how am I going to ask the right questions? Why am I not going to upset her? And men, do we really need to know about it? Or I'm too young to think about the menopause or it's really uncomfortable. And I think all these barriers have got to be just gone. So it is just a normal conversation.

But actually above that, I really feel. feel that employers should be saying, well, how are you getting help? Have you seen a specialist or have you seen a doctor or a nurse? And perhaps you could, you know, invest in some time, have some time off or whatever, and get the right treatment as well. Because investing in them, now it's like if I had back pain, I wouldn't want to have back pain every day. I'd want to hit it with some inflammatory or pain killers or physio or whatever I needed and then I could get back to work. And I think it's the same with menopause. It's almost seen as like it's such a transition let's just wait for the women to be better and then they can carry on their jobs.

Well, actually, for many women, the symptoms can last for years or decades. We can't do that. As women, every day we want it to be the best day of our lives. So there's so much we need to get better, isn't there? Oh, there really is. And I think when you look at the stats of the amount of women leaving the workforce, very scary. Particularly the great, you know, post-COVID, the value that that sort of 45 to 60 adds to the workforce

and the workplace and the economy, particularly at the moment, it's significant. And the value that you get from work, you know, as I said with the Leeds Mindwork I did, the value we looked into as to what work does for you on a positive basis, particularly again, when women who have been mothers are seeing that empty nest syndrome, they're maybe caring for their parents, their value, you know, even if they can only manage a part-time working life for the latter years, is so significant in what they can get from. from it and give back. It's such a shame to waste it. It's awful. And I think if we can give people that voice, both the employers and the employees, there's some fabulous employers, as I say,

who are absolutely committed to helping, but they just need the support and they need the knowledge, and they need to feel that that level of, as you say, taboo and embarrassment has now disappearing, as it absolutely has done for mental health. Yeah. You know, why can't it do that now for the menopause? It's the last taboo, really, isn't it? Totally is. So, the work you're doing is incredible. We need more of you. We need more of Gunner Cooks in the world as well because, you know, the setup of the organisation's amazing. The work you're doing is incredible. So I want to thank you very much. But just before we finish, I'd really like three take-home tips. Three things that you think somebody who's listening to this and might be

struggling in the workplace, three things that you think they could do to help their employer actually to get the most out of them as an individual? Okay, so I guess the first one is about getting yourself to a place where you feel you can speak up. Now, you may need help behind the scenes from either your GP or if you're seeing somebody a counsellor or a close family friend or a family member to give you that confidence because you're probably at a low place anyway. Speaking to your employer is maybe the last thing you feel like doing depending on their set up.

And if you don't feel you can speak to a manager, maybe seek out somebody who might be a female at a similar age or stage in your life within the workplace, who you feel you can trust or you can start to open up the conversation to. They could be your advocate, even if there isn't a menopause sort of program in place where those people are identified as menopause champions. Find somebody yourself and start that conversation, even if it's only over a very sort of relaxed, coffee to open up to them and see how that conversation feels on an informal level to maybe then try and take it to a formal level if you are struggling. Because as I say, openness not only helps the employer to understand what they might be able to do to help you, but legally it's incredibly important because then we're looking at fitting your symptoms within the Equality Act to gain you that support. And of course, the important thing to remember that I haven't yet

mentioned is that discrimination rights under the age, sex and disability arena kick in from day one, even from a recruitment stage. In fact, they're in place. So you don't need service, whereas clearly unfair dismissal is two years service. And so you need to remember that you are protected and, of course, under health and safety legislation as well, from a duty of care perspective, the employer is under a duty to create a healthy and safe working environment. So all of those things need to be remembered. When you're feeling lost, unsupported and unprotected, you do actually have some protections from early doors. So that's the first thing. I think the other thing to do, which is more of a personal move that you can make, but actually does help your employer as well, is where you're having

difficult moments, difficult conversations with people, difficult days, keep a diary. Keep a diary of your symptoms and keep a diary of those symptoms and how they impact your performance or your working day and when they do impact it you may have had a terrible night with night sweats what does that next day look like and what if you had a magic wand what would you do to wave that and say okay for me to survive today after that terrible night what do i need my day to look like at work it may be extra breaks it may be working from home depends on how your job is set up, it may be different uniform, all those things we've looked at before and employers that are presently looking at are important because, again, you can be your own advocate.

Don't expect the employer to second guess what you need. Try and open up and really be creative in that. Think about things that nobody would have thought about in your job before. I think there should be no barriers to this. It's all up for debate. And on top of that, the third point, which is very much a self-protective step, but again, if you're a things get a bit more dicey would be helpful, selfishly to me as well and to the employer, is to send yourself emails. So most people have a Gmail, hotmail address, where those difficult moments happen, particularly perhaps difficult conversations with managers or where a colleague may say something that's hurtful that they don't even realise it's hurtful because it's linked to

the menopause and medical symptoms, is on that day, if you can, go home or privately, send yourself an email with a file note, a diary entry of what was said and what was done and what happened, because that's timed and dated with it being electronic. So it's very hard for somebody to say, oh, you made that up weeks afterwards, etc. And it's good for you to then be able to go back and track, okay, so if I do need to seek advice, these are the things I need to tell. Or if I need to speak to HR, this is my record. And it may not be a formal grievance that you need to raise. It may just be, look, these things are happening. They've happened now for a few weeks and making me feel very uncomfortable. I think we could do with a training program or education internally.

Please, can you help me? It can be that level. And obviously, I only get involved when things get much more frenetic and stressful. But equally, all those things are quite practical steps that I think everybody could take. Really great advice, very sensible and actually easy when it's broken down. So thank you ever so much, Emma, for your time today. And keep doing this work. It's Brilliant. Thank you. Thanks, Louise. For more information about the perimenopause and menopause, please visit my website, balance, balance, menopause.com, or you can download the free Balance app, which is available to download from the App Store or from Google Play.