The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 252 - Bryony Gordon: mental health, hormones and witchy magic

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

This week on the podcast, journalist Bryony Gordon, bestselling author of several books including her latest, Mad Woman, explains how the perimenopause caused her to reconsider her mental health. Was her experience of OCD affected by her hormones and what would society look like if women’s health was taken more seriously? Bryony shares her belief that there’s a 'witchy magic' to menopause and that the issues it brings are the ones that you need to deal with and there is power in doing so. Finally, Bryony shares three bits of advice to any woman being dismissed with 'it’s just your hormones': Don’t dismiss yourself. Don’t discount your point of view or feelings just because they are yours. Maybe sometimes you're right, maybe sometimes you're wrong - that's OK. It's OK sometimes to be bad. We all are. It’s just society wants us to live as women in a way that isn't very human. Confidence is a trick. No one has confidence. I don't have confidence. I just have a will and a desperation not to spend the rest of my life hating on myself because it's such a waste of energy. Follow Bryony on Instagram @bryonygordon her community organisation @Mental Health Mates Click here to find out more about Newson Health.

Hello, I'm Dr Louise Newsom. I'm a GP and menopause specialist and I'm also the founder of the Newsom Health Menopause and wellbeing centre here in Stratford-Pon-Avon. I'm also the founder of the free balance app. Each week on my podcast, join me and my special guests where we discuss all things perimenopause and menopause. We talk about the latest research,

bust myths on menopause symptoms and treatments, and often share moving and always inspirational personal stories. This podcast is brought to you by the Newsome Health Group, which has clinics across the UK dedicated to providing individualised perimenopause and menopause care for all women. Today on the podcast, I've got somebody with me who I have met in real life before, and she's with me now, who many of you will have heard of, who's very inspirational and very open actually about her own story.

Brianie Gordon, who's recently written Mad Woman, and in the middle, I hold it up, for those of you that are watching, it says, Menopause, binge eating OCD, how to survive a world that thinks you're the problem. And my goodness me, this book resonated so much with me personally, but also I know for a lot of people that I see. So amazing to have you on my podcast. I'm super excited. Thanks, Brian, for coming. Thanks for having me. Oh, no, it's great. So we met in Carfest, actually, didn't we last year?

Which was great. Oh, yeah. Very, very woman-centric Carfest. Oh, my God. That's such a stereotype of me. Yeah, but it was great. And I am, in fact, I'm going back this year. Me too.

I love Carfest. Everyone, all women should know that, I mean, like, obviously women like cars as well. But the best thing about it is that Chris Evans puts on also he does like spa fest, which is like, it's amazing. actually for me, it's more of a well-being festival than it is a car festival. Well, I didn't know what to expect. So I went and I was thinking, well, and I actually went with two of my children and my middle daughter, who was 18, was like, I'm just going to stay in the hotel with my boyfriend. I don't even want to come to the stupid festival. And I was like,

well, just come for a bit. Anyway, I had to drag her out at the end. We kept going back to dance a bit more before we left. But yeah, it was really interesting because I thought it was something for everyone and it was a real wholesome, happy festival. wasn't it? I thought. Yeah. My daughter, who's about to be 11, loves it. It's like her annual. But you got to stay in a hotel. I shouldn't say that too back. Yeah, I stay in a tent next to Chris Evans's Winnebago. He just, no, but it's quite a nice tent. Like, I don't make it sound like I pitched my tent outside. I know, well, I'd stay in a nice tent. I'd just not very good at sleeping on the floor and being all cold. You don't sleep on the floor. It's a bed. It's a proper bed. Okay. Well, I would do that. I would

definitely do that. But yeah, no, it was great. And actually, this time I'm going to talk every day, actually, and mix it up a bit. But because it's not just about menopause, actually. Lots of people know me as a menopause specialist, but I am a clinician, I'm a physician, I'm interested in holistic health, but I'm more interested in the role of our hormones. So whether you are having periods or not having periods, or whether you're perimenopausal or menopausal, you still have hormone receptors on every cell of our body. And when we talk about hormones, there's just three that I'm really interested in, which is estradiah, progesterone, testosterone, testosterone.

Like there's hundreds of hormones in our body. But it's so funny, Louise, because like I love this conversation. I love having these conversations because I always remember, like, it's wild to me that it's taken until I got to my 40s to like accept how powerful hormones are, you know, Like they're the most powerful chemicals known to humankind. And yet my interpretation of them for so long has been to be dismissed because of my hormones. Oh, you're just hormonal.

And I'm like, what? Why are we dismissing this? And for me, you know, what Madwoman is about is understanding the role that hormones have played in my mental health since I was like 11. Yes. You know, like we talk about menopause now. But it's actually, it's the whole of our reproductive lives. And, you know, for me, it was the realization came. I've had crippling OCD.

And I first got it when I was about 11. And, you know, on and off throughout my life. And then it came back very badly in 2022. And someone said to me, have you thought about your hormones? And I was like, I'm too young. And they were like, no, babes, you're not. I was like 41 at the time. And I went and had my hormones tested.

And they were, they didn't actually say this. because you'll probably know this as a doctor, you're not allowed to say this. But they were like your levels of estrogen. Like we think probably Dwayne the Rock Johnson has higher levels of estrogen than you. I mean, they were like so low. And I went on estrogen. And, you know, I was told all the usual, like it can take three months, you know. And no word of a lie, Louise, within about two days, I was like, you know, in Disney movies where the princess wakes up and the birds start coming through the windows.

and it's like la la la la la la la la that was what it was like it was incredible like the oCD had just i described it like the noise had just gone and you know that set me down this path of kind of looking into well hang on a second this is actually really important because there have been times where i've nearly lost my life because of my mental ill health and then when i went on the progesterone bit it was like as a media i felt suicidal and all the this stuff started linking up. I'd been on the pill very briefly when I was 21. I'd had to come off it because it was so dark, made me feel so dark. When I was pregnant, I was under psychiatric care from the local authority. And obviously, your body is full of progesterone when you're

pregnant. And, you know, starting to kind of join up these dots and realize that probably I'm incredibly progesterone intolerant and perhaps there's been an element of PMDD throughout my life and just that sort of feeling quite angry really that for so long this stuff has been dismissed and you know Louise you'll know this it's still dismissed like there's a backlash now you know to all the conversation about the menopause you know when I think to myself if men went through the menopause oh my goodness it'd be so different it would be the only thing we were allowed to talk about you know and it really saddens me briny and it frustrates me as a woman and actually as a mother of three daughters,

but also as a medic, because no one taught me this when I was going through it, and I really enjoyed psychiatry. I did psychiatry job in a very deprived area of Manchester. It's a privilege being a doctor, and it's a privilege talking to people who are very deprived, very neglected by society, actually. And most people in other walks of life

would not have the privilege of talking to these people in the ways that I can, because I can learn lots of things that's quite confident, that they wouldn't talk to others about their abuse or about their, you know, domestic abuse or drug abuse or how hard their life is when they're in a council estate with, you know, six children, single mum, alcoholic, whatever. And I don't judge anyone for who they are because that's how a part of my training. But actually, I've always tried my best as a doctor. Like, I work really hard and I want to individualise care and give people choice. But I never had

hormones in my toolbox for choice because no one taught me. We were taught a lot about contraception. We were taught a lot about the depot previra injection, give that to as many people as possible. And then when they started to, I started to give the depot to women. Often it was women who had had five or six children who they didn't want to be pregnant again, of course. And I felt that uncomfortable giving this injection because I thought, I don't know what the long-term risks are. I don't really know. And then there were some studies saying, well, there was some osteoporosis or thinning of the bones. And I thought, well, hang on a minute.

We're switching off their natural hormones. The natural hormones build bone. But they also are really important for mental health. And these women are quite flat and quite low. And everyone's saying, oh, but they're complex women. They live in council estates, Louise, don't worry about them. And I'm like, hang on a minute. I mean, there's something, it's quite dark.

I mean, it's essentially sort of like, I'm not going to use the word sterilising, but. Well, it is, it is, but it's also giving them a chemical menopause as well, which I hadn't realized. And then even we're going to Women's Revolta exhibition at the Tate, which is the most amazing exhibition a few weeks ago with my children. There was something from 1979, this poster that these women are drawn with a picture of the syringe saying ban the depot. 1979, it's a synthetic hormone, it messes with our brains, don't trust the doctors. 45 years later, we've got the implant. It's again, it's just a chemical progesterone that is switching off hormones. But the other thing that I didn't know, which I only found out a few years ago,

which I'm quite embarrassed about to admit, but I don't care admitting my failures, is that I didn't know these hormones were produced in our brains. Our brain synthesizes estradiary and testosterone. So it's not all about our ovaries. So we always say, oh, it's your ovaries playing up. It's, you know, your ovaries because it's that time of the month. but actually our brain is a powerhouse and it produces these hormones and which psychiatrists, which neuro-researchers have been looking at the role of female hormones in our brain, very few.

And there are people with PMDD, like you say, but also OCD, ADHD, which I think there is a hormonal element probably based in the brain, but we haven't done as much research. I absolutely agree, Louise. And I think, you know, for me, OCD, the first time I experienced OCD, I was about 11. right? You know, and I got my period about six months later. Now, I think there's an enormous temptation to kind of grab for the, oh, that's why I'm like I am, you know, and like just hormones are the reason. And I don't think that's the case. I think I probably always have a predisposition to mental illness, okay? But I do recognise that my ability to deal with that

mental illness is massively affected by where my hormones are at at any given time. And that's crucial because it's the difference between being in a raging sea with a life raft and a, you know, or just being naked in the Atlantic Ocean and, you know, like sort of. And I do think that's really key because, and I also think, I believe, like, you know, now, you'll get this as a doctor. You look back at kind of Victorian times when doctors didn't know, that surgeons didn't know that they should wash their hands. Well, it's simovice, isn't it? They believe germs came through the air,

so they would like keep the window. You know, like there was, oh, we look back and go, how did they not know that? You know, and I'm sure that in a hundred years' time, you know, there'll be people are like great, great-granddaughters or whatever, will be having sitting on whatever the version of a podcast it is, you know, in 21, 24,

and going, God, can you believe? they had no idea about the effects of hormones on our mental health. Well, it's very interesting. So I was reading some history books, as you do, when you haven't got anything else to do. And 1789 was one that I read. And it's describing the menopause. But it describes the mental turmoil for these women.

And it describes how it's psychopolar and the periods are a cure for their mental anguish. And so they used to do bloodletting. So they used to do cups. even under our breasts and in the legs to let out blood because they thought that would help our mood. And I understand that actually when we do have our periods, our hormone levels often improve. And before our periods is when our hormone levels are at their lowest. So even then in the 1700s, they knew there was something that was changing in a woman's body. And they did describe some flushes and sweats.

But this mental health and then hysteria, hysterectomy, obviously, mental health. It's... Hyderia comes from the Greek word for womb, doesn't it? Yes, absolutely does. And then, actually, I was finding some adverts for a presentation I was giving about misogyny recently. And it was adverts from the 50s and 60s. And they used to give us, when I say us, I mean women, not me personally, barbiturates and benzodiazepine to keep us at the home to quieten us down because we had this mental issues going on.

And there was even an advert for housewife's headache. and she had a broom in her hands and she's like, oh. But that was, I'm sure, related to our hormones. You know, I think it's so interesting how we've lost touch with our own, our bodies and our kind of ownership of them. So like, I think this is really crucial.

So mad woman, the mad woman of my title is not, it's like, you're damn right, I'm mad, I'm fucking furious. Yes. Because, you know, like a lot of this stuff that we experience is totally appropriate. It's totally appropriate because we, of course, women experience imposter syndrome, you know, because we live in a society that's a patriarchy that has never been set up for us and it's still not really, right? Okay. So all of these things,

I think are really appropriate. But also I read this book, which I just think is fantastic, called Women Who Run with the Wolves by Clarissa Pincoa Estes. It's quite a classic book. And she speaks about back in ancient tribal times, how, you know, they used to write about women being sent off because they were dirty during the times of their, you know, menstruation, right? And she says, even now, I can imagine, you know, like if we were told to do that, we'd like go, oh, no, we're being sent off. And then get around the corner and go, woohoo!

But how actually these areas where women came together were like really crucial to connect and exchange ideas and feel and also just go with the flow of our bodies. And of course, you know, we don't. We have adapted through, you know, this is, I mean, this is like, this is a much bigger political discussion and socio-political discussion, but like in the last 100 years, you know,

the freedom we have been given by the contraceptive pill is still only freedom so that we fit in to a male world. Like there is no point at which men are ever asked to adapt to a world with women in it, you know? And that is the fucking truth. And it makes me so cross. And that's what this book is all about. It's like, and all along, you've been telling me I'm the problem? Yeah, do me.

Like, babes, I'm not the problem. I'm the fucking solution. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And it's even more complicated when you talk about hormones because with contraception, there's advantages to the man to society because we don't get pregnant. But actually with the menopause, the advantages are that women become weller. They become more vocal.

They become less invisible. They become more in control. They're more likely to be like CEOs and on boards and not give up their jobs. That's a bit scary, isn't it? And it's a bit like the sort of, I don't know, I always think, you know, the Elvis Presley film with Elvis. And the women suddenly got very liberated. They were garrating their hips and, like, having a wonderful time in front of Elvis. And the men hated them being so happy.

And Elvis was taken off, wasn't he, to go into the Navy? And he was like, you can't dance like that on the stage. You can't let women be happy. My experience, my, like, personal experience professionally has been that men generally have definitely, have definitely, in the last few years since I started to go through that and start to really sort of own my power and step into it. and not, you know, they don't like it. Like I found my interesting is that actually since I got sober,

I'm an alcoholic in recovery, but, you know, for me, the process of getting sober has been like, in a way I needed alcohol for my 20s and my 30s because it was the only way I could numb myself to get into a patriarchy, right? And in a way, you know, you would think, like an alcoholic getting sober was a good thing, But what I've really discovered actually is that in terms of profession,

in terms of the male worlds in which I exist, I'm probably saying too much here, but it's been much harder. Like they don't like it. Like they like Briny, you know, briny, 29-year-old briny, a coke addict and an alcoholic and, you know, happy to do whatever they were asked, like people-pleasing.

Brilliant. She's great. Yeah. You know, but 43-year-old Briney, who's going, no actually I don't want to do this thing you've asked me to and I think I'm worth more than that and I don't agree with you you know these are normal things that you know we should all be able to have conversations about it's like well okay you're dead to me that's been my experience yeah I totally agree and what saddens me is I see and speak to a lot of women who have taken to alcohol drugs

even class A drugs to try and help the demons in their brain that are associated with their hormonal changes and I spoke to someone recently who became an alcoholic age 14, actually, she wanted to escape from the hormonal changes. She didn't realize what was going on. Before her period, she was so dark, very violent household, stepfather that, you know, really she didn't want to be near. So it was convenient for her stepdad and mum,

for her to be away from the house with all sorts of children and young adults who were helping her to drink more and more. And she's now in her late 40s, and she's getting these thoughts again. And she's very, very scared. sober she doesn't want to go back to drinking alcohol but she doesn't know what to do and it was just for me to say well it would be related to your hormones like it was when you were 14 you know it's a really interesting point though as well because I have this belief as well that there's a kind

of witchy magic to menopause and the hormones and what they bring it up right are the things that you absolutely need to deal with it's like your body going are you going to deal with this because if you want to move into the next however many decades of your life and own them and enjoy them as you deserve to because you're a fucking queen, you're going to have to deal with this issue, you know? And for me, that's very much been the case is the paranoia, the imposter sense, the kind of like, oh, maybe I'm not that good at what I do. It's like, you know, I feel it's like my body been asking me to step into that thing of going, you can stand on your own two feet, babes, you're okay. And it is interesting. So

a lot of people who think their progester, intolerant, it's worth maybe saying a little bit because there are some people who are intolerant of synthetic progesterone. We still call them progesterone, like the progesterone-only pill, but it's been chemically modified, so it's not the same. So it doesn't have the same beneficial effects in their body. And there are a lot of people who are intolerant of those, but they're fine with the natural progesterone. But even the natural progesterone is very anti-inflammatory in the brain. It helps, like, actually the brain to rewire itself. Lots of women really like progesterone, don't they? They do.

It's like a real marmite. Some people love it. It helps them feel calmer. It helps feel more relaxed. It helps them feel more relaxed. It helps them feel more relaxed. It helps them feel more relaxed. It helps them worse before they feel better because it's actually these thoughts like you say that it will bring things and traumas to the surface, which are quite hard sometimes to understand. But then once they're the body is reduced in its inflammation, these pathways reform, you deal with that process and then you feel amazing afterwards. So I actually am intolerant or I thought I was of progesterone. And I used to have, I started it when I started like my clinic and my work and my, I used to literally say to my husband, I want to close the clinic. I want to stay in this bedroom. I do not want to get up. I feel awful. And it took me a while to realize it was a progesterone. but I was speaking to this other doctor recently.

He said, yes, but that's probably internally what you really wanted to do, but you were too scared to admit it. And I am quite a negative dark person. But he said, actually, if you'd continued and maybe increased the dose and used it in a different way, say off-license, we often use it vaginally, you would have actually come out of that quite a lot quicker, and then you would have feel even strong. It's a bit like some sort of therapy or whatever,

and it's the rebuilding of this brain. And I thought, actually, that is really interesting, because when you have a side effect or medication, we've all done it. You try something once, feel awful, go, right, I'm never touching that again. But actually, maybe it was because it wasn't the right dose or tithe, or you hadn't had it for long enough. And him explaining that in a very simple way, I thought, actually, it's a way of you dealing with demons in your head. And I think when you're older, because a lot of it is older women who are menopausal, not always, younger women can. But when you're older, you've got life experiences.

So this kick-ass attitude, you have. now have briney is part of it because you've experienced so much in your life. And that's where I think menopals or women have the edge and the advantage because we've got these mixed emotions and we've got life experience. And there is always somewhere in our head telling us, no Louise, no brine, you're not as bad as you think you are. Like, look at the good you can do. You're not actually stupid either, even though lots of men and others are telling you that you're really stupid. Actually, or not. And that takes quite a lot, doesn't it, to really do it? It takes a, do you know what, it takes a hell of a lot. It takes a hell of a lot. And it's like, it's quite profound and I think,

and quite beautiful. And that idea is just as I was listening to you talk and like pushing through things. And I think even if it's not, you know, like for me, it's like even just understanding that I can have that reaction to synthetic hormones or whatever. It's like it gives me a bit of distance and it allows me to go, okay, this is not me. This is not necessarily true. This whole thing of like, you know, you're terrible, everyone hates you. I'm like, is that true?

Is actually the challenge here to be questioning this internal dialogue? And I think it is. And I was reading a brilliant something recently about, of gratitude and how actually what gratitude is sort of like when you go through tough times, it's not going, oh, I'm really grateful for these tough times because it means I'm alive or something. It's like going, no, what I'm grateful for is what I'm learning. Yes. The strength that I am going to gain from having to go through this shitty experience.

And I think it is so important. I do quite a lot of yoga and sometimes the instructor will say, It's really good to wobble because then you'll only grow stronger. And I'm thinking, yeah, that's good because it's a bit like being pushed down or having a negative experience. You will grow stronger. But it's so hard. And I always look at people and always think, oh, they're lucky.

They've got all this. They've got all that. But no one knows what's going on internally. And, you know, I had the biggest negative experience of my life when my dad died when I was nine. And I could have spent my whole life feeling sorry for myself. Instead, it's like, do you know what? That was so awful. Nothing can be as bad as that.

Well, very few things. But actually it's going to make me more independent, more resilient, not depend on other people, not rely on other people, because no one prepared me for his death, and I'm still cross about that because it was in the 70s and you didn't talk to your children. So that lack of trust I had for my, you know, people who looked after me and my grandparents, my mother,

it was really, really, you know, it's been very deep-seaters. But actually it's helping with my work now. So when people try and throw money, at me. It's like, hang on a minute. I'm still independent. I'm still going to carry on, although it's hard. And I think this is the same with anything, isn't it, when the children get bullied at school. It's like, no, you've got to keep going. You know, if you believe you're doing is right, just keep going. And that's what we want as women, isn't it? If we know what we're doing is right and we've got good values and integrity, we've just got to have that strength.

But I think until you've been pushed down, you don't know how to keep strong. Does that makes sense. It does, yeah. It's about resilience. That's resilience, isn't it? It's like, resilience is not refusing to fall over. It's falling over and getting up again. You know, like that's what, yeah, it's, which is, it's helpful as I sit here and I'm supposed to be running four marathons in two weeks time and my leg is in bits. And I'm like, well, maybe when it's actually just getting stronger in preparation for these marathons. Yeah. But I think what's interesting now that we didn't have many years ago is that women can form, women work in mysterious ways.

We've got social media. We've obviously always had media, but we've got ways where women can really build. So this whole thing about whether we want hormones or not, whether we want to do yoga or not, whether we want to drink alcohol or not, we can share our experiences in ways that I don't think men do in the same way because we're quite honest,

but we have this sort of secret network with. And that's amplify when it comes to the whole menopause, perimenopause, hormonal thing. And I think, I don't think it's going to be as long as 100 years, Brian. I think our next generation are so, like, even more resilient than us. And they're more open to change than us. And they're more, they've got more common sense, actually, in some ways. Because my children are like, Mommy, what's the big fuss? It's just hormones.

Like, let's talk about other things that are more, you know, difficult. So I think having women together, it's very powerful. When they're in the right frame of mind, we really do pick each other up a lot, I think. No, I agree. I feel like this conversation has picked me up quite a lot. I was in quite a like doldrums about an hour ago.

And now I'm like, yeah, let's go out and kicks from my ass. Yeah, but that's what we need. I mean, I honestly, my husband can tell you there are many times where I want to give up everything and throw the town in. I do. But all the time, every day is a battle to not, every day. I'm like, when can I just run away to Cornwall, live by the sea and live in a commune. Yeah, can I join you?

Yes. Like, there's a question where I go, maybe that's the matriarchy. Maybe the matriarchy is we all get to go and live in the commune together and we all support each other. And our men come and they go, do you know what, actually this is really awesome? And we go, or maybe we could create a human rarchy. Oh, I think it's great. It's great. I think what I love is the honesty.

And I think, like, I am such an honest person. But in your, but you say all these things that, like, so many of us. And I don't know how many because we don't talk. But I certainly have this monkey chatter, this negativity in my brain a lot that I have to suppress, suppress, suppress. Otherwise, I get nothing done. So actually, it was really, you don't know how, like, reassuring it was to read your book, to know that, you know, many. many of us haven't been diagnosed with various things, but we know we have them, but actually

we just try and suppress them. But actually, for you to allow us to think, yeah, actually, Briney's not alone in this, but Briney's really vocal. I think it's amazing. So thank you, that's what I want to say. Thank you, Louise. Before I end, I always end on three take-home tips. Okay. So I would ask if it's okay, three things that you would like to tell your former self or people who are younger who have just been told, oh, it's your hormones, don't worry. Okay. Stop dismissing yourself.

Stop dismissing yourself, okay? It's not just anything. It's valid because it's your experience. So stop dismissing yourself, right? The moment you get into that frame of mind, everything is quite liberating unless, you know, like I discount my point of view or my feelings because they're mine, just because they're mine.

I'm like, oh, the other person must be right. right, no, maybe sometimes you're right, okay? Maybe sometimes you're wrong, but that's also okay. My other thing is, I think a lot of my stuff has been this obsession about being a good girl, you know, and for me it's like, I would say it's okay sometimes that you're bad. We all are. Yeah. You know, I think the society wants us to live as women in a way that isn't very human.

You know, like, and, you know, I see. suppose confidence is a trick. No one has confidence. You know, it's a trick. No one has confidence. I don't have confidence. I just have a will. I just have a desperation not to spend the rest of my life hating on myself because it's such a waste of energy. Yeah. I love that. That is so important. Great tips. And honestly, I could talk for longer, but it's been brilliant. So thank you. And I look forward to seeing your car fest. Oh, me too. Thank you, Louise. Thanks for having me. You can find out more about Newsome Health Group by visiting www.newsonhealth.com. And you can download the free balance app on the App Store or Google Play.