The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 33 - Menopause and the making of Riot Women with Sally Wainwright

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Content advisory: this episode contains themes of mental health and suicide Many women experience menopause as more than hot flushes and periods stopping. It can also bring a deep sense of flatness, loss of joy, anxiety or even thoughts of hopelessness.In this episode, Dr Louise Newson speaks with Sally Wainwright OBE, the multiple BAFTA-winning writer and director known for Happy Valley, Gentleman Jack and Last Tango in Halifax. Her new BBC drama Riot Women has already had amazing reviews. Louise was the Medical Consultant for Riot Women.Sally discusses her personal experience of menopause, and how being prescribed hormones has transformed her wellbeing and how those truths shaped her latest BBC drama, Riot Women. She also talks openly about her mother, who had both osteoporosis and dementia.Together, they explore the link between menopause and mental health, the cost of silence around hormonal symptoms and the power of honest storytelling to change how women think and talk about menopause, as well as how they access hormone treatments. .Disclaimer: This podcast is not connected to the BBC.In the UK, you can contact Samaritans 24/7 at 116 123 or visit samaritans.org. If you're outside the UK, please reach out to a local crisis support service or emergency medical help.LET'S CONNECT  Subscribe here 👉 https://www.youtube.com/@menopause_doctor Website 👉 https://www.drlouisenewson.co.uk/Instagram 👉   / @drlouisenewsonpodcast  Download balance app 👉 / https://www.balance-menopause.com/balance-app/ LinkedIn 👉     / https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlouisenewson/ TikTok 👉   / https://www.tiktok.com/@drlouisenewson Spotify 👉 https://open.spotify.com/show/7dCctfyI9bODGDaFnjfKhg LEARN MORE Watch Sally’s latest BBC Drama, Riot Women 👉https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002hd7x Take my online education course, Hormones Unlocked 👉 https://www.learningwithexperts.com/products/hormones-unlocked-dr-louise-newson Sign up for my Confidence in Menopause Course 👉 https://www.drlouisenewson.co.uk/education---confidence-in-menopause  

This is a really exciting episode. I've got with me Sally Wainwright, who's a multiple BAFTA award-winning writer. She's really inspirational and she's just written the series Riot Women on BBC. It's definitely worth watching, but she's really open about her own personal experience and what drove her to write this series. So enjoy it. So, Sally, I feel quite nervous, actually, because I just have been always. everything that you do and it's just such an honour to have met you it must have been like two

two years ago was it feels quite a while ago yes yeah I guess it is is it yes it's two years ago it was when we start we were researching riot women it's just amazing so so your journey has been incredible because you just get under the skin of people and you really like seem to know so much about how different people from different backgrounds really live and when I say really it's really important because like I've worked in lots of areas of deprivation in Manchester I've been to some houses that I wouldn't ever want to visit again the smells the noise and what's been going on and I've worked a lot with drug abuses I've worked with all sorts of people and for me it's a real privilege but I can do that as a doctor being allowed into people's houses but

you've got this way of just really bringing it all to life but your story of how you learnt so much I think is really interesting. So I don't know if you don't mind just sharing a bit about how you've got that lived experience when you were working on the bus. I would see when I worked on the buses. Well, I suppose, yeah,

when I finished university, I wanted to be a writer. Yeah. And back then, everybody said, if you want to be a writer, you've got to live in London. Yeah. So I moved down to London

without any money. I think I was down to my last five pounds, literally at one point. Yeah. And a friend of mine said, oh, you like driving. I didn't apply to be a bus driver. So I did.

I applied to be a bus driver and I became, I quite enjoyed it. Did you? I quite enjoyed driving the bus. I like vehicles. Yeah. And the bigger the better. So I used to drive up to Heathrow Airport on the 1-11 and I was fantasising about driving the airplanes.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, but it's interesting talking about the sort of nitty gritty of writing shows because I think for me it's often about getting a really good advisor on board. Yeah. Like when I was writing a drama like Scott and Bailey. for instance, I had a fantastic ex-detective who was really intrinsic to the show. And she told me stuff, in a bit like you've just said, it's kind of the kind of thing that you kind of come away wishing you almost didn't know.

Yeah. But it's essential when you're writing a drama like that. You know, the truth is always, I think, much more interesting than anything I could make up. Yeah. Oh, good. So it's, for me, that's the key is, I mean, you know, really good advisor on board. on whatever capacity, whatever you're writing about, whether you're writing a historical drama

or a police drama or a drama about rock music, you still need people on board. And that's why we came to you because I wanted to write about women who are at a certain point in their lives. And certainly the menopause is a big aspect of their... You know, it's not the only thing going on in their lives, but it's a big...

It's something that connects them there, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And it's a big thing that's going on in their lives and it affects... Certainly I realized, as I was starting to write the show, how many elements of my life it affected. And did you realise that before you started researching? Yeah, it was always meant to be about, I think I started writing the show about 10 years ago.

I started thinking about the show properly about 10 years ago, which would have coincided with me starting. My menopause was lit. And I think I hadn't really thought about it much until it started. and so I'd be starting to go through it I think and like a lot of people you're not really you're not too consciously I think people are more now because of people like you

were making us so much more aware of it but I think I wasn't particularly waiting for it or anticipating it in the way that should be most of us don't you know you kind of do it really you think it's probably not going to happen to you yeah yeah but of course it is And so I was starting to be aware of it and starting to be aware of certain things going on in my life

that I was having to juggle with. And that's kind of what the show is about. It's about women of my age, as I was then, 10 years ago, 50, mid-50, early 50s. It's an age where you're very capable. You know, you've weathered a few slings and arrows and you've got a lot on your plate. You're juggling a lot of things.

You know, you've got, in my case, said, my mum, who started with dementia, which was a shock. And again, something you don't anticipate it, because you don't expect it to, you know, you don't expect it to happen, even though you kind of probably should in some ways. You kind of don't. It's the kind of thing you don't worry about until it happens. I've got teenage children, teenage boys, a very busy job. So you're juggling a lot of things.

And in the middle of that, the menopause starts. So I wanted to write about that. I wanted to write about how the menopause comes and gets you. But I wanted to write about it in a way that was kind of uplifting and interesting and not. Because I think there's a tendency to think of the menopause until you came along and sort of blew the doors off. You know, we don't talk about it.

It's a bit miserable. It's a bit low energy. We don't really want to go there. And I wanted to try and find a way to write about it that was, you know, engaging. And educating as well. Because, you know, when I talk to my mother, And she's fortunate because she did see a doctor who started her on HRT in the 80s,

but it was referred to as the change. They didn't even use the word menopause. And a book I was reading from the 1800s was describing it as the crisis time. And he was really, this is someone called Edward Till, an amazing doctor, but he was talking more about the peri menopause actually and talking a lot about mental health. But this crisis, it often is. And then it's interesting because I talk to some people who say, oh, you need to tone it down, Louise.

people are now being scared about the symptoms. They're being so scared about the mental health symptoms and it's because you're talking about it. And it's like, hang on, women don't make up symptoms. You know, we're quite tough really. But what I think I have done is unmast it so that women who have been labelled as being depressed, schizophrenic or personality disorders or whatever

are actually now thinking, hang on, how much of this is related to my hormones. And I think as women, we've just been gaslit quite a lot, actually and I don't use that term loosely but like so many people have said to me well you will feel like this because you've got children and you're busy but I just find that really frustrating yeah yeah well it was it was really interesting for me when I came to meet you and talk to you about how just knowing that it's the menopause just helps you deal with it better you know because I was having I have I've always suffered from depression and I've always thought

it was part of being alive. I've always thought it was part of being a writer. It was kind of part of, you know, the things you have to deal with. So it's been interesting, just knowing that there's an explanation for... Did you ever talk to anyone about it? I've been to the odd therapist, but never for more than about five minutes. It was, for me it was really interesting starting on HRT because I came from, as you know, from a background of, oh, I don't need that.

Of course. Because I mean, the only other person I'd really talked about that menopause was my mum. Who was it? Which I suppose is true of a lot of people. And she always claimed that she laughed her way through the menopause, which I now don't believe she did. I think she was actually quite depressed.

But that was her way of dealing with it, of sort of telling herself that I'm not going to be beaten by this and I'm going to laugh my way through it. But I remember of suffering from headaches and all kinds of aches and pains and being really quite low. But I just bought into her telling me that she was laughing away through it rather than actually seeing what was in front of me. And it's only now I've realised that she wasn't laughing away through it at all.

Yeah. And I often think, and I still do now, that menopause is not an ovary condition. It's not a womb condition. It's a brain condition. The commonest symptoms affecting people are brain-related symptoms. So the mood, the concentration, the energy. But most people I see and speak to say it's the mood change. is they feel joyless, they feel flat.

Yes, yes. It's just that sort of existing, not living. I've forgotten that feeling. Yeah. But I remember talking to you about that. Where you just feel like all the joy is going out of life. Yeah. I remember someone saying to me about 10 years ago in my clinic,

it said the zest for life has gone. And I thought, I get that completely. And until you've been there, it's quite hard to describe, isn't it? Because it's not something you can, like, say to people. It's not like you're crying all the time or you're, you know, some people are like, Some people are tearful, some people are angry, but a lot of it's just like you're just flatlining really. Yeah, but I think people don't talk about it because you don't want to be a drag.

Yeah, totally. You don't want to be the person who sucks the energy out of a conversation. So we sort of keep it to ourselves. Yeah, and I think also, like externally, like you're really successful, you've got the most creative brain, you're, you know, producing so much so people wouldn't expect you. And like, then who do you talk to and say, actually, guys, I've worked up this morning again, feeling really late. No one wants to hear that, do they? No, no. And you remind yourself of all the things you've got to be grateful about.

But it doesn't seem to matter. It doesn't, does it? But you know, it's really interesting that I've forgotten that feeling. It's because you don't have it now. Yeah. Maybe, isn't it? Because I didn't remember talking to you about right women, but then also saying, I think we need to talk about your own hormones.

But I remember the first question you asked me. Oh, what was it? Well, it was just tell me about yourself. Tell me about your mum. And I said that my mum had dementia and that she'd got osteoporosis. And you said, well, that's two good reasons already why you should be taking HRT.

But for me, it was worse than that. It was feeling really just that joylessness. That somehow life had lost its meaning. And, you know, I don't think I'm suicidal, but I did have just vague notions of the world might be a bit better off without me. Oh, I remember talking to you about when I was filming Gentleman Jack and feeling tearful in the mornings and talking to our head of makeup who was on HRC and she was insisting that I needed to get HRT and I'm like, no, I don't need things like that.

Which was, it was, yeah, interesting. thinking back to. And why do you think you were so resistant to it? I just don't like taking any medication that you don't need to take. I've always thought. But do you see it as medication? Or do you see it as just? I guess the idea of just.

You know what to mean? I do because it's putting something into body that isn't naturally being created anymore. Yeah. But it's interesting what you've just told me about contraceptives. because I took contraceptives when I was in my middle of late 20s and I just ballooned I mean I've always been disposed to be bigger than I should be

but that was shocking when I it was like within the space of weeks just put on something like two stone and did you stay on contraceptive then no but I didn't lose the weight when I stopped I mean I have lost weight since then and I'm always struggling with weight but but it is interesting I mean I

I think a lot and educate a lot about the difference between natural hormones and synthetic hormones because when people say hormones or HRT they immediately think risks breast cancer I really shouldn't be having this whereas most of us have taken contraceptive pill didn't even ask about it my sister told me the other day

and she was 16 she just went to the school doctor and said oh can I have a pill now I'm 16 because she's a June birthday so over the year all her friends started taking it we were in an all-girls school that was boarding So we had no access to boys anyway. And she just said, oh, I went on it because, and the doctor went, yeah, here you go, take it. But the irony is that the pill, even now, still contains synthetic chemicals that really are not natural for the body.

They're not the same chemical structure, whereas the hormones are literally replacing like for like. And so when you think about your brain health, your bone house, you're just stimulating those receptors that weren't there, you know, weren't stimulated. So the pill just gives people a chemical menopause. So you would have been flaws into menopause with your contraception, which no one really thinks about. No. It's quite interesting when you think. But the mental health component is huge.

Program, like the characters, they've all got different issues, different backgrounds. But mental health does run through it, doesn't it, a lot? It's mainly the two main characters, Beth and Kitty. Yeah. who go on to HRT during the course of the show between episode three and four. There's a jump of six weeks. And pre that, we meet Beth and Kitty.

They both start the show. And they both suicidal at the beginning. They're both basically trying to take their own lives into very different ways. Beth's kind of going out with a whimper and Kitty's trying to go out with a bang. But they're both struggling with mental health at the beginning. then they meet each other and this very unlikely friendship develops between them.

And then we jump on after episode 3 to episode 4 where they've both started taking HRT. Their lives have changed. The lives have changed in a number of ways, but they certainly cite that has been a factor. And how would the actors and the team, like, responding? Because it is very dramatic, one of the ways of trying to take a life. And I've heard lots of women want to take their life.

and had these dark thoughts and planned how they were going to do it. But I've sort of numbed to it because I hear it all the time. But for lots of people, menopause is flashes and sweats. So when they were reading the script, like, what were people's responses to it? Did they believe it or did they? Oh, they certainly believed it. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know.

No one ever questioned whether it was true or not. I think the great thing was it just sparked a lot of conversation amongst us socially and his rehearsal about, you know, the slings and arrows of women that age, you know, the things that we go through and that we deal with and the things that come to bite us that we didn't expect or anticipate, as I say,

like with my mum getting developing dementia. And again, just that being part and parcel of life at that age for women, you know, the female experience of how you deal with it when you've got all these other things to deal with as well. And the surprise of it, the surprise of what it does to you. And as I said earlier, not been consciously aware of it, of all its aspects. Yeah. You know, not being able to articulate all its different aspects.

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But it shows how common it is because I think if it was uncommon for women, especially to have these thoughts, people would have said, no, that must be really uncommon, Sally. Don't put that in or whatever. But when you look at the research, even research we've done, one in six women who come to our clinic have thoughts of suicide. before they come and with balance that we've got hundreds of thousands of people that monitor symptoms

and again it's about one in six and it's one in six women are not getting help and one in six women aren't even being prescribed hormones so a lot of people are internalising it and it's not just menopoles of women a lot of women before their periods often have that really low dark thoughts thankfully a lot of people don't go through with it but they still think about it more than other things and it is the mental health symptoms that affect women more than the physical symptoms because I know we were talking about how much of the hot flushes and sweats to tease out.

But, you know. Well, that's, it's interesting. I remember at one point where we're going to call the series hot flush and you were really against that. And I was, I got to a point where I didn't, I didn't want it just to be about hot flushes because that's, it's kind of a lazy shorthand for what it, what is really, you know,

it's, there's so much more to it. And there's so much more to women's lives as well. And it's sort of reducing it as a joke almost. And that's what happens. You know, even in the 30s and 40s when they first discovered hormones, the research was done with flushes and sweats because they could literally have, usually men with a clipboard monitoring the number of flushes that a woman had because you can physically see it.

Whereas to ask someone what their mental health is like, how can you measure that? And so that's why they've ignored it because they couldn't prove that it was related to hormones, whereas the sweats and flashes could. So it's great that you didn't. Cool it. The other thing that we talked about a lot in the show is feeling invisible. Yes.

And that's another symptom I remember is just feeling like you're disappearing. Like nobody kind of, you don't, everybody wants a piece of you, and in the middle of that, you're disappearing. Or you're becoming somebody you don't quite recognize anymore. And that was certainly one of the themes of the show.

Joanna's character talks about Beth in the first episode, feeling like nobody can, see her everybody people are complaining about her but then they don't see that she's got issues going on that nobody's interested in or helping her with and i think also people have reduced self-esteem low self-worth one of the questions we've got new symptom questionnaire and one of the questions that we added was that just don't feel like yourself anymore which is really really common but then you're less likely to ask for help and it it is that sort of just withdrawing from society

a lot of people stop going out they stop socializing it's not just work. It's everything. It just sort of excuse. And I sort of think my mother and grandmother's generation, they sort of hid behind their apron strings. They didn't have to really go out the same way. And a lot of people have crippling anxiety so they don't drive anymore. They don't want to go on the underground. They don't go on a holiday. So they're sort of making their worlds get smaller and smaller and smaller. But the other area that really worries me is the addiction side of things. Because we did a survey the year and a half ago now about addictions. And not just alcohol, but drugs as well.

And some of the free text responses were really quite harrowing, women turning to cocaine to. Really? Yeah, a class A drugs because they can't get help. And a lot of them are saying, they can't get health and doctor. I have such awful anxiety. I have such deep dark thoughts. It's lovely to have this euphoria, this escape from realism, taking these drugs. But they've never done them before.

This is women in their 40s and 50s. Yeah. And I've seen it in my patients. Someone recently was telling me that she's. She was very posh, and she was telling me how she'd been microducing with some cocaine and something else. And I was, I didn't like to say, well, how nurse do you get hold of that? Like, I have no idea what I would do. But she said, it's the only thing that can help me, Louise.

She said, oh, Dr. News. And she said, like, my doctors, all they do is prescribe me antidepressants. And I know I'm not depressed, but I can't cope with these intrusive negative thoughts. I can't sleep. I'm very anxious. So I just thought I would try it. But she said, but I'm a bit scared of hormones. So that's probably a bit safer than taking what you're taking, you know.

But that's a worry. But that sort of teases out, doesn't it, with, you know, alcohol especially in riot women. But it's blamed. It does in kiss. Yeah, the character of Kitty. Yeah. That sort of teases out, doesn't it, with, you know, alcohol especially in riot women. But it's blamed.

It does incis. Yeah, the character of Kitty does use a lot of alcohol. And drugs. Yeah, but it's very easy to look at Kitty and think, well, it's just her life. She's just a mess. Yeah. But we meet at a certain point in life when it's kind of reaching her head. Yeah.

So I suppose that. And again, it's just because, I mean, she's the youngest of the right woman. She's not quite in that age group. But, you know, as you said, you can menopause anything. Absolutely can. No, absolutely can. And actually, when people abuse drugs and alcohol, their ovaries actually usually switch off at an earlier age because the body protects them.

Like Kitty's body is not healthy enough when she's full on not well to really support a pregnancy. So, I mean, our bodies are amazing. They protect us. So, you know, a lot of younger women who abuse drugs will have an earlier menopause. And certainly when I was volunteering in prisons last year, lots of women had hormonal issues and lots of them obviously doing drugs and alcohol. And no one's recognising that at all.

so just to not just judge people for oh she's had a bad life or all the character that she is actually could it be related to her hormones in any way and what was great is that she learned from her new friends didn't she what was going on as well yeah yeah do you think it's going to have obviously we're recording this before it goes out I know it's going to have an amazing response I've seen the trailer and even then I had goosebumps down you know but what sort of response do you want to get from it what what's like your biggest sort of I always think I always want to entertain people but I hope you know entertain people and hopefully make them think and kind of to tell people something new hopefully not you know new in any massive way but just to hope people think a bit more about something and certainly this was my this I suppose it was personally my way dealing with the menopause was to write about it and what I was going through So it's, I suppose it is just to, you know, to dramatize part of the female experience that we haven't seen dramatized.

He hasn't, has it? No, I don't think so. But again, it was just to try and find a way to do it that isn't poor-faced or that isn't going to make people go, oh, you know, men think, oh, I'm not watching that. Because I think all the men I've spoken to about it, it actually seemed quite, once you tell them what it's about, and all the men who've worked on, on the show, in post-production, for instance, the people who weren't there filming it,

you know, they've come to it fresh and they've actually responded really well. Bet they have. You know, they've, they love it, they enjoy it because it's fun, it's got fabulous music in it. Oh, yeah. But I often say to people with menopause and hormonal changes,

once you see them, you can't unsee it. And, but it's opening the eyes to it. And I think that's what this is really going to do because everyone's going to resonate with one of the, characters or some of the symptoms or just the way that they are, but the way they help each other and lift each other up is really powerful. But the music's fantastic. And that I think really makes it. But just tell me about the song. Oh, well, yeah. In episode four, there's a song

and I think we all helped write this song anyway. I mean, arcs have written the songs. I can't detract from that at all. They've done a brilliant job. But we did give them some ideas for what the song should be about, and we threw some more lines in as well to suggest things. In fact, the first line's written by the police advisor, Lisa, which is I'm so depressed, I can't get dressed. That actually came from Lisa, the police advisor. But then there are some, there's the one line that I'm sure came from you, whether directly or indirectly, about, oh, if it happened to blokes, i.e. the menopause, if it happened

to blokes, would be getting HRT from Desco. and then the arcs Hanny and Clara are arcs they come up with this fabulous refrain when the song goes into Give me HRC and it becomes this chance

and hopefully the audience has already seen this now but the audience pick up the chant and by the end of the song even some of the men in the audience are singing give me age so again it's trying to make it engaging and uplifting and fun

because you know global How many menopoles of women are prescribed HR2? Probably very sure. Five percent. Yeah. Whereas all guidelines is majority should be taking it. Yeah. The other thing I've been talking to people a lot recently about is something you told me.

People are saying when I get through the menopause and I keep saying you don't get through it. Well done. It's really true. I was talking to someone the other day who was just saying about the whole transition and there will be times where you'll feel bad and other times you feel better. but once you're through it and it is this whole and I see so many women who say oh it's really not relevant

because I'm through it and I really try and take the word when people say post menopause it's like no you're menopausal they try and get rid of that word because it's that terminology isn't it and I also think a lot of people because they associate with flushes and sweats

if they don't have them they think they can't be menopausal and a lot of women so they attribute all that or the symptoms to other things. Well, they think also they're getting older. So women in their 60s, 70s, 80s say, oh yeah, well, I will feel a bit tired and I will not sleep well, and I will have some urinary symptoms and I will have some joint pains because I'm older. And I don't know how many are related to hormones, but I'll just say, well, let's give you some hormones to help with your bones and your brain and your heart. And then literally they'll say, wow, I sleep better out.

I don't get up in the night, having we. And it's those little things that you wouldn't necessarily take a medication for one or two things. but it's what it's like, you know, you've noticed a difference. Like you're just, you're so different when I first met you. There's lots of things that have changed, but obviously hormones have been quite a big factor, haven't they? Yeah, yeah. I haven't had any urinary tract infections. Yeah, since.

Which is amazing. When you think, I only had one or two, but it was enough to think I don't want these. Yeah. Well, you know, 30% of sepsis is due to urinary tract infections. Is it? Yeah. Oh, my God. And it's preventable, you know.

And we've known since the 80s that even just using vaginal hormones can reduce the incidence of you and retract infections. And obviously systemic hormones will help keep the immune system functioning better to reduce all infections. But it's still not sort of. We still give antibiotics all the time, which is wrong. So you're not coming off your HR too. No, no, I don't think so.

No. No, good. So it's just such a privilege to, like, hear and also just to watch how the programme, like, I'm very black and white, I'm very scientific, I'm very boring, but I came up to Hefton Bridge and watched, like,

how it was excited when you were quite. But it was great. But what I found, like, still can't get my head around now, that you film like all these tiny little clips and you redo them and redo them and redo them. And then you go to something else, and then you go to something else.

And then it's just supposed to be like some massive jigsaw. And then it all comes together. Well, we shoot everything out of sequence. Because we have to, because we shoot by location. Yes. So we can shoot out. You know, we'll dress a location. And then we shoot everything in that location.

And then it can be derriged. It's so clever. So it's, well, it's like a military operation filming. It is like a military operation. You've got like, you know, 75 people on set every day. You know, time's money. And, you know, you've to really crack on with it. Yeah.

And I suppose the thing is, you know, Because you're shooting out of sequence, you have to have the whole thing in your head. Well, that's what I found amazing. I mean, you were so kind. I was like your little shadow. I just wanted to like just. So I was literally on your shoulder watching everything. And just the way that you...

It's fun, isn't it? It is fun. But you have to be really patient as well. Yeah. Because that scene, you were just redoing in the pub. Yeah. And like the top was quite there. Like the strap was down and it should have been up and issues,

I'm trying to do it again. And for the actors, it's really hard. It's so much easier doing live television because you do. just on and then you're on to the next whereas this is just you want it and each time you want it better and the right one but you've got that you could just see it you know the one and then when suddenly you know it was the right clip that was it you can move on to the next and yeah it's such an art it's incredible so I'm just so excited to like watch it all together um but like I say seeing the trailer just seeing those characters come to life I know there's not going to be someone

that doesn't sit there and think yeah that's me or that's my mom or that's my aunt or that's my sister or my daughter's who might or someone at work and what I really hope from it is that people will just start to start that conversation and make it but not normalise it but just then facilitate them to be able to get help and advice support and treatment that they want in a non-judgmental way because that's really important isn't it so I'm very grateful Sally but when when I finish my podcast I always ask for three take home tips I just would really like to ask you three things that you wish you'd known about hormones before I met you. I wish I'd known that the report about connecting it to breast cancer was, had been

discredited as far as I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that's what put me off. Yeah. I wish I'd known that my low moods could have been. been helped massively by taking hormones. What about bones, helping your bones osteoporosis? Did you know that for? No, I didn't, I didn't know. I didn't know that there was linked with osteoporosis or dementia.

Because I do remember that was when we first started talking and you asked me to talk about my mom. And I'm constantly worried that I started with dementia because both my parents had dementia. So, you know. I think that's the thing. It's trying to change the conversation, thinking about the risks of not having hormones,

whereas for so many years, we've always been thought about the risks of having HRT. And the risk of the suffering, actually, for women. So suffering in silence, no more after riot women. So really grateful for you coming. Thanks, Sally. Thank you.