The Dr Louise Newson Podcast - 34 - Penny Lancaster: The truth about menopause care

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Every day we hear from women whose symptoms are being misdiagnosed, which makes Penny Lancaster’s story hit close to home. She talks with Dr Louise Newson about the months she spent thinking she was depressed, the antidepressants she was offered in lockdown and the moment she realised her symptoms were linked to menopause.They touch on a bigger cultural shift too. Menopause is being mentioned more often now, yet many women still struggle to get clear guidance or access HRT. Old fears linger, and too many people feel pushed aside in their working and home lives just when they need support.Penny reflects on how getting the right information changed everything for her, and how the themes in her book Someone Like Me echo the resilience so many women quietly build. It’s a straightforward, reassuring listen for anyone trying to make sense of their own symptoms or wanting to understand this stage of life a little better.Want more from the podcast? Sign up to my premium offer: https://www.drlouisenewson.co.uk/premium-podcastsLET'S CONNECT  Subscribe here 👉 https://www.youtube.com/@menopause_doctor Website 👉 https://www.drlouisenewson.co.uk/Instagram 👉   / @drlouisenewsonpodcast  LinkedIn 👉     / https://www.linkedin.com/in/drlouisenewson/ TikTok 👉   / https://www.tiktok.com/@drlouisenewson Spotify 👉 https://open.spotify.com/show/7dCctfyI9bODGDaFnjfKhg LEARN MORE Buy Penny’s book, Someone Like Me 👉https://www.waterstones.com/book/someone-like-me/penny-lancaster/9781526686978 Take my online education course, Hormones Unlocked 👉 https://www.learningwithexperts.com/products/hormones-unlocked-dr-louise-newson Get tickets for my new theatre tour, Breaking the Cycle 👉 https://www.nlp-ltd.com/dr-louise-newson-breaking-the-cycle/ Download my balance app 👉 https://www.balance-menopause.com/balance-app/ 

Penny Lancaster is my guest today. She gives a really open account of her own story, not just her own menopause story, but her life in general. But her menopause was diagnosed by the team in loose women. She had been misdiagnosed as depression and thought she actually had depression and needed antidepressants. So it was a real honour to meet her as a patient in COVID times and help her to educate herself about hormones

and also about the different symptoms. which has really helped her to educate so many other women about hormonal health. So Penny, we've only met once in real life before, haven't we? But I feel like I've known you forever because I feel like you've also changed my life. Oh, Penny, thank you. Yeah, I mean, that really slippery slope that I went on, you know, when I was like 49, kind of crying out for help in the middle of lockdown thinking it was the anxiety and fear around lockdown

that was causing my symptoms to the point where I'm always the guiding light and the one that people turn to for help and the answers. I couldn't even help myself and I was like literally just on the floor in a ball of sweat and tears and just panicking.

And then my GP, who I had at the time, male, just responded to the tears with antidepressants. And did you know then that you weren't depressed? No, I thought I was depressed. And I'd never felt that way before. So I didn't recognise it. But of course, I hadn't had any knowledge on what menopause was. I'd heard of the word, but I didn't understand it at all.

And it wasn't until I went on one of the loose swimming shows. And it was when we were back in the studio, I think, but there was no audience because of the lockdown rules and stuff. And I was describing what I was feeling. And they were like, Penny, no, no, no, no, no, no, you got this all wrong. You were not depressed. This is your hormones. This is the menopause. Your body is like being depleted of the hormones.

and obviously, you know, women will have side effects. Some are going to be affected more than others. But this is everything. You're ticking enough boxes to suggest that it's the menopause. And I go, I better get some blood work done. And then that was a whole misconception because then I realized that actually, having gone through IVF and having blood work done with that, there would be one month I'd take my blood. It's not really a great month.

hormones are where they need to be let's wait be patient or test you another week boom they were great so what's the point in doing a blood test to see if you're a hormonal because one week it's my next minute it's not and we all know that you have

a good period and a bad period one that's like clockwork the other one that just goes on longer and it's heavier and so you know I was told by you and passed on the message to others that it's all about let I mean the list goes on and on but if you can at least tick five of those main

symptoms then just talk to your GP requests that you go on to it and then maybe two or three months down the line look at doing blood work yes and that's really important and I remember I mean you've written about it in the book so I'm not disclosing anything but you know you were in a really bad place but you are a massive coper you know I remember because you had all the children at home and we're having We all didn't really. Yeah. So there was a lot that you had to deal with,

but you've always dealt with a lot. Yes. And I remember you saying, you know, how worried you were about yourself. Rod was obviously really concerned. Yeah. Concerned about you. Because it was just, you know,

who did everyone look to for the answers and the decisions was me? And then I wasn't there. Not really. No. Not present at all. I remember you're saying you just wanted to escape from the house. Yeah.

I used to lie in a hammock in the chicken area. And hide, like I cocooned myself up and just wanted to shut myself off from everyone, like, don't come to me. I'm no use to you kind of feeling. You see, it's funny, but it's not funny. And, you know, even since we last met, we've, I've been funding a PhD student in suicide prevention. And I'm really focused on mental health and hormones because, you know, I've lost count the number of women I see who have really struggled. And they've not just had antidepressants. They've had antipsychotic. They've had lithium, they've had electroconvulsive therapy. And they think that's the path, you know, that's their lot, really. And a lot of women just become more and more invisible. They can't cope because of their mental health symptoms. And they think that's just the way it is.

And we've known that for hundreds of years. Women have become more invisible as they've aged. But actually it doesn't have to be that way. And it really frustrates me and saddens me that so many people can't get hormones. Well, it absolutely frustrates me because you look at, you're talking about being invisible, like the workplace of women that have been working hard, working their way out the ladders, it were, you know, on par with their male counterparts, who's going to get the promotion? And it's at that real prime age when we've gained all that experience and knowledge where suddenly we feel like we're falling apart. and like you say, nobody can see me and I can't remember this

or, you know, I'm forgetting things I've got the brain fog or I can't sleep at night so I can't function properly during the day and all those things and maybe I'm not what I thought I was. Maybe I should just slip away and just hand in my notice and they're disappearing. And you know, years ago, so about 10 years ago I did some work for West Midlands Police

and I know obviously police falls very close to your heart as well and I just did half a morning a month and they wanted me just to talk about menopause and symptoms and when I first went in they were talking about policies and I said oh no I'm not an HR consultant I have no idea about policies or pay or any HR things but what I can do is just inform women and when I first went there was about eight women

lovely women round a table and they all just said oh no hormones means cancer doesn't it and I said no it doesn't actually let me just tell you about all the symptoms because they thought it was just hot flushes and one by one they're saying oh gosh I was going to hand in my notice or I've come off the beat and now I'm working in an office job because I can't walk

it's really painful, my joints are stiff and I can't lift my grandchildren and put them on the swing and they were all thinking about their early retirement and I thought gosh and one by one when they were talking about their experience with their healthcare professional they're all on antidepressants so I said well maybe you should think about hormones

and then over the months they would come back and they would talk about, oh my goodness, I'm on hormones and Lyme so much better and you should try it, you should try it. And at the end of the year, there were hundreds of people in the room and it was like stand-up room only in the last session and everyone was so empowered. And it was just brilliant.

We even got the chief constable involved because once you see it, you can't unsee it. Exactly. But it's getting to that stage, isn't it? Well, you see so many household names promoting products, you know, health, this is health benefits, you know, this cream or this tonic or this thing or that, that, you know. But, you know, we're talking about a product that we're not selling. We're talking about a product that we, it's something that we've always produced our

entire lives naturally. Absolutely. And why should we be without it? And now, thanks to the work that, you know, with the marching to Parliament, with Menopause Mandate and, you know, Caroline Harris, you know, at least we've got the cost down. Yes. Oh, yeah. It's made a massive difference. It's still like one fee for a whole 12 months. It doesn't include testosterone. But it still does not include testosterone.

Because someone, I would think it was probably a male, has decided that women don't need that. I know. But you know what? I've spoken to quite a few women who have been fined. So their doctor didn't know it didn't cover testosterone because it's about hormones. So they presumed it was HRT and testosterone. And a husband came up to me recently and said, you know, my wife's just got a fine. And it's about, I can't remember the exact. It's either 80 or 100 pounds. It's a loss of money for people. And they've had to pay this fine. And they said, we never did it trying to avoid the money. We just thought it was covered. So it's really. A fine for what? Because they've got their testosterone for free. And so they then get a letter back with a fine to say, no, it's not covered. You shouldn't have put it through. Oh.

I know. It's really sad. So, yeah. So we've still got things that we need to change. I mean, HR too, it's hormone replacement. I know. Therapy. It doesn't say, oh, except.

Except testosterone. Except it doesn't include. It doesn't say that. No, no. No, but that's the small print, which lots of people don't realize. But it's, what Carolyn Harris, and others and, you know, you with a mandate and everybody working together, it's just about awareness and choice. And, you know, what I feel really sad is that HR2 prescribing is less

than half of what it was 20 years ago when that study came out. You know, it used to be 30% of menopause or women were prescribed hormones in the UK. And then the negative report came out. Yes. And then it scared people away. But has it increased in the last few years? With all the work that, you know, everyone's been doing the last 10 years or so, it's gone from 10% to 14%. So it's still, and it's plateaued. The last year, I think we're going back in time.

The stories that we hear of doctors refusing has become a lot more. So it's 14% and the last year it's plateaued. It's not kept going up. Oh, that's disappointing to hear. It is. And in the US it was 40% of women who were menopausal before the WHOHI study. And now the recent figures are about 4% of women in the US. What are going to do about that?

we just got to keep talking, you know. But like it went down because of that report, so we need a different type of report. Well, the thing is, now this is interesting because this was the only randomized controlled study. And a lot of people say you have to have randomized controlled studies in medicine. So that means you divide the group into two.

You don't know who's having what. Half have the real drug and half have placebo. And then you see the difference. And that's what they did in that study because they knew HRT was good for women, but they started to give it women who were older. So the average age in the study was 63. But a lot of those women had had heart disease.

They were overweight and that had raised blood pressure. And they gave them the synthetic hormones that we know has risks with it. So it was like the wrong type of HLT, the wrong study. So now if you did a randomised control study with natural hormones, it's not actually ethical because we know there are more benefits than risks with natural hormones. We know they reduce incidence of heart disease and osteoprocessing. for example, and improve symptoms. So, you know, if I was menopause on and not taking hormones,

I wouldn't want to go into a study because I'd want my hormones. Do you see what I mean? And I wouldn't want to risk. Because if I went on placebo, I couldn't work as a doctor. I couldn't be happily married? Couldn't they do the test on women that aren't taking it? Yeah. So then, but then what they have done over.

Or there's women that are afraid to, that are scared to, the women that go to the doctors that refuse to give them, can't they sign up. Yeah. But then it's still hard because then as a doctor, you know, I'm really clear to women that there are risks of not taking hormones. So there are risks for your future health as well. So, but not every study has to be a randomised control study. When they discovered that penicillin, you know, antibiotic was good, they didn't say, oh, we're only going to give it as a randomized control study because it was good. So you can do observational data.

But the other thing is we know how the hormones work in our body. Like we've known that for decades. so we know they reduce inflammation. We know they get produced in our brain. We know that for many years, we've known that women who have hormones have less depression and less mental health issues. So we just need to join the dots, really,

and then allow women to choose. It's a bit like saying to you, exercise is good for you, but you can choose whether you exercise or not. You know what I mean? And it's the same with hormones. You can choose whether you take them. But I think the saddest thing of all of this penny

is that women are just not given the choice. You know, the number of women I meet who are on antidepressants compared to hormones, you know. Well, I mean, I get women coming up to me at the school gates or at the Pilates classes and things like that asking me, you know, so what's going on? What's the latest I'm thinking of taking, but I'm not sure. I'm like, why aren't you sure? Yeah. What is it? Where's the stumbling block?

And they still have that little niggily, it might not be good for me. There might be a side effect. I said, why? Why should there be? You've had these hormones in your body your entire life. It's the same thing. It's not a foreign object that your immune system is suddenly going to react to. I mean, I've had an undirected thyroid gland, so I've required, which is another hormone, thyroxine,

I've required that since I was 21. So I hated the idea at that age taking a tablet, but like the doctor said, we won't survive. Yeah. Yeah. And it's exactly the same. It's just another hormone. But the problem is, when they were discovered, they were commercialised. because people wanted to make money.

They always want to make money out of drugs. So they change the chemical structure. So with your thyroxin, you take levothyroxin, which will be exactly the same as the tharoxin that I make naturally from my thyroid. With the HRT, you take Easterdial, which is a natural form. In the olden days, they used to use a synthetic hormone, which was either made synthetically, like in all the contraceptives,

or they used to get it from pregnant horses urine. I know. Which is awful, isn't it? Yeah, so that was when a lot of the studies were done. So it contains Easterdial, but it also contains all sorts of moments. Oh, my word. I know. But the drug company patented it.

So if you've got a patent for that drug, you don't tell anyone else your formulary. So they wouldn't tell other people what was in that magic urine. As long as it's got what you're saying it, hasn't it? Forget about the rest. So once you realise that it's completely different, you know, because you want to replace like with like, and that's all we're doing. But what's really interesting, I think, is that people take contraception really easily. Yeah.

Because obviously it works as contraceptive, but it's synthetic. Yes. So it has far more risks than taking natural hormones. But you suddenly say to someone, HRT, and they're thinking, oh, I'm not sure. As our hormones change throughout our lives, especially during perimenopause and menopause, looking after our bones, muscles and balance becomes even more important. That's why I love Vivo Barefoot. Their shoes are designed to let your feet move more naturally, helping you build strength and stability from the ground up. That natural movement can support

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Every Thursday, I'm going to be releasing an extra episode for those of you that sign up. It's an opportunity that I can have. have more guests, share more information, dig deeper into the research that I can share with you. And when you subscribe, this money is going to be used to help with research, much-needed research that's away from pharmaceutical companies. So information is down in their show notes. So have a look and subscribe and enjoy. Well, because of course, that's all you're ever taught about at school. You're not taught about the menopause

you're not taught about how to get pregnant you're just taught about how not to get pregnant I know I know bees and the birds you boys, girls like protect yourself from diseases

protect yourself for getting pregnant this is how you don't get pregnant this is how you don't get pregnant and the whole thing of like you know I've tried to explain well like the boys understand what menopause is now of course because they saw Mummy go through hell with it

and then I needed to explain to them what was wrong and I'm okay now because I've got my home replacement. I remember I was in the boys' bathroom and I heard Aidan who was probably about 13, it was like a year ago and I heard him chatting some of his friends, some of the lads. There was about four of them and they were going, oh, what was Misk doing today?

Like, God dear, she was so snappy and miserable and this and that and I'm listening going hmm I was chatting away and it seemed like it was an unusual behaviour pattern for her anyway so I put my head in

and I said boys how old do you think this teacher is? Oh I don't know maybe a little bit younger than you mum I went oh okay so Aiden you've heard this from me but maybe you could consider that she might be going through her menopause

you know like mommy had a lot of trouble and you know you cry more easily you get you have less patience and you get anxious and all those things so can you imagine the stress the teachers under and she's feeling that way because of the lack of hormones and the thing is that they teach you boys what happens in puberty and how girls begin their periods but that's just the beginning of that fertility cycle because at the very end, the full circle is when those periods stop. So you get a rush of the hormones which ignites the body and turns a girl into a woman and her periods begin. But why don't they finish the conversation and say, look, your moms or your aunties or your grandma or someone

else might be at the other end of their fertility and the opposite happens. The hormones start disappearing. So just, I said, boys, look at the girls of your age, you might say, oh, because she was a bit snappy or she wasn't very nice today, was she? Or why was she ran off crying? Because it's explained that it's hormones. The same with you boys, whether you get testosterone, you can get angry and all those things. But they're not explaining the other end. So surely that has to be a part of that whole journey. Absolutely. And it's interesting because I've got three daughters and, you know, a lot of them recognize it in their friends' mothers or all their teachers. Or their teacher.

You know, my 14-year-old a couple of years ago at one of her schools, she said, oh, mommy, the math teacher so obviously, you know, she had an, she kept opening the window and there were times when she was really, and it's a real struggle.

And they're embarrassed about it. And they think, you know, the kids are going to giggle, what have you. But if you just be like, look, this is what it is. Yeah. You know, I remember Aiden, he used to go, hang on, mommy, wait a minute. And he'd open a door and, you know,

waff the door back and forth and back of forth to try and call me down. Like, he was, you know, it was just, it's that taking the stigma and the shame away from it and just go look this is part of life cycle just the same with you kids going through your puberty this is what adults of my age go through so we're kind of on the same page I get what you're going through

and I'd like you to be able to understand that what I'm going through and then how many kids can go home like you said to their parents that aren't educated on it to go dad I think maybe you should chat to mum maybe that you know like to have the conversation having the conversation Men into the conversation. It's so important. And actually, I was in Glasgow, I did an event at a theatre.

I got an email today from one of the few men that were in the audience. There were only three men in the audience. And he was ex-army and he said, I'm writing to thank you for everything that you do. But he'd come up with his wife. And he said, you know, if I hadn't been aware of your work, I wouldn't have been able to help my wife. And now she's taking hormones and, you know, a whole relationship, everything is completely different. but actually sometimes you need someone else to advocate for you not just to recognise the symptoms but to say come on

I'll come with you to that doctor or I'll make that appointment with you and don't take those antidepressants if that's not right for you then think about hormones because it's the second part of the conversation that's missing so often isn't it? Well I mean the idea that 50% are going through the menopause but actually the other 50% the men are going through it with us. They're standing right by our sides. I know.

Scratching their heads and they're panicking. And then, of course, it can very easily end in marriage breaks down. And then, of course, like, worse still, as you mentioned, suicidal thoughts. But I remember my eldest son, Alistair, he said, Mom, I was at the side of the football pitch Sunday morning. And one of the dads came over to me and said, can you thank your mum? Because I know what my wife's going through now. That's nice, isn't it?

Yeah, but maybe. The side of a football pitch. Yeah. Where it's like all tough and mud and, you know, grit and swearing and all that. And they're talking about menopause. And at my police station in the city, I had one of the mail officers come up to me and say the same thing. Thank you so much talking about it. Now I understand.

And I was on one duty where we all have to look smart, be smart. So they have to wear the same uniform. Yes, primarily we have the same uniform. But we have different types of jackets depending on the weather. And it was a long duty. So we were trying to gauge the weather and decide what four uniform we're all going to be in. And they decided on the heavy coat. So I thought, I don't know whether to bring this up, but quietly, you know, in front of everyone, I went over to one of the sergeants and I said, look, I don't know.

I don't want to be treated any differently. I don't, you know, I just want you to understand that I'm going through a menopause. You don't need to go any further. Do you want to wear the lighter jacket? Oh, that's nice. Well, you think I can do that? He said, of course you can. So thank you.

He said, no, we set up a whole menopause thing or we have a, I was like, whoa. That's really nice, isn't it? A male-dominated place like that. So it's getting there. It's just slowly. And I think if we don't continue talking about it, it will just drop off, like you say. And there will be another generation, the next women coming up that are going to be blind to it. I was supposed to radio recently.

And then they dropped me and said, oh, we've spoken. enough about the men for it's like really no you haven't i will only stop talking about it when everyone who wants to take hormones is on them yeah because it's this 14% isn't because only 14% of women want them it's really not you know every day i'm speaking to women who really can't access hormones because they're not seeing a doctor who's been educated and it's really wrong so the more that everyone works in different ways then it amplifies the messages doesn't it Absolutely. I mean, thinking of that, those health checks that women get with their GPs and the information that's kind of given to them at the right stage, same with fertility. I have a girlfriend who, you know, is like very career focused and very intelligent girl, but she's 35. And now she's like, oh, babies. And once again, like she's her, I only remember being told how not to get pregnant. And now I want to thinking about babies.

but maybe I've left it too late. And, you know, we'll go to your doctor and like, but go with a list. Yes. You know, they want to be able to see a pattern of like, when did you have your last period? Are your period regular? How many, you know, like you've got to write a list all these things. The same of the menopoles. Go in with a list of your symptoms and how often you have these symptoms.

And there is a particular time in a month you feel worse. And, you know, you have to go, you know, armed with material. That's a real difference. That's one of the reasons that I created balance app, you know, the free app, because it's got all the symptoms there. People can then create a health report and go and say, look, these are my symptoms. And actually, for me as a doctor, everyone does it who comes to the clinic. And it means you can look very quickly. And you can look at, yes. And then sometimes people say, oh, I haven't got many symptoms. I look at their list and I say, well, what about your vaginal dryness? What about your joint pain? Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. And then the whole conversation starts then. Because it's the, you go away afterwards and you go, oh, I forgot to mention this, forgot to mention that. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me about your book.

It's amazing that you've written such a long book. It's so brilliant. It's so easy to read as well. Yeah, I know. We're having dyslexia and writing and like you say, reading it out. Reading in the audio as well, which was particularly challenging. I called it someone like me because, yes, it's a story about me, but it's also a story that, And so many other women, men even, have gone through a lot of the experiences that I've gone through, whether it's bullying, whether it's dyslexia, whether it's being a victim of crime, pregnancy, fertility, IVF, menopause, you know, all of those things.

So, yeah, it's the journey from my childhood. and by writing it, I've dug really deep into detail about the events that have gone through in my life, some of them traumatic. But it's amazing how I've realised that I've gained skills just when you think you're in the worst place. You don't think there's any positive that you can get from that. Actually, you turn another page and another chapter.

And before you know it, you know, the other experience you have later in, adulthood, you maybe wouldn't have been able to get through had you not gone through those things as a child. I totally agree with that. And sometimes at a very dark times, there comes likeness, but you don't know it at the time, or resilience or strength. You can't be strong if you've not been pushed over before. And so there's, I think also people, it's so easy to look at you. You know, look at you. You're married to Rod. You've got everything you like. You've got a lovely family. But it's not always been easy. And I think for somebody to just share their backstory, it takes

quite a lot of courage actually but it helps people resonate doesn't it it does it helps people resonate connect with you and know that well if she's been able to make this of herself you know when i was told that i wouldn't make anything of myself when i was at school a teacher once told my father um and so i never thought i was ever going to be good at anything um and but then when i met rod he you know much older than me had a bit more life experience and he recognize side of me that I hadn't seen and he said you're great at this and you've got you're so good at communicating and your your thoughts and you're great with the kids and you've got this empathy and understanding and you see always see things from other people's perspective and

you can use that and and channeled that and and I was like didn't think of those as talents or skills but of course in policing it's massive yeah so it's yeah I've really sort of sort of tapped into things and like bullying and realizing of course there's bullies in adulthood in the workplace and you come across those and I've learned to recognise it and I've learned to rise above it and do you know de-escalate is my key thing and you know in the end of the day karma will come around but if you just just keep giving kindness and love and take care of yourself there's no need to attack just defend yourself and it takes a lot A lot of brave and courage to do that, actually, but also...

Patience. But also a lot of kindness, because the more I think about bullies, I realise they're not kind and they're probably not happy. They're not happy. But it's not my fault they're not happy or your fault they're not happy. And I don't think anything that we can do as victims will make them happy, actually. Well, if you show suffering, it's kind of given them... They're winning, aren't they? They're winning.

Yeah. So as hard as it is to suffer quietly somewhere else, you know, but of course express it to your loved ones. And, you know, obviously as kids, it's not a conversation you can have with those bullies, but they will recognize it in themselves. And they know they're doing wrong ultimately. And more often than not, you find them in groups. It's only as the true, the center of that group, maybe the true bully that's instigated it. will end up continuing to have that pattern because their needs haven't been met

and they become that adult bully when they're older. But yeah, or come or does come and get you, I think, in the end. I think it does, but it can take a while and sometimes it's really difficult to understand as well. Yeah, yeah, I think so. People do need to be called out and I think more and more is being done in a workplace to kind of not suffer

people in a powerful position allowing people to get away with stuff these days. I think it's important. And there's so many different types of bullying and even, you know, I employ a lot of doctors and most of us have worked in quite difficult circumstances and been unable to speak out because these people are our bosses

or they're going to give us our references or whatever. And it's no different in medicine to other professions. But I think also the most important thing is having a good network of people around you, people that you can trust and make you feel good. And, you know, your family certainly do that, don't they? Family, my friends and hubby and, yeah, I'm very lucky in that respect. Very lucky.

Yeah, yeah. So, oh, I'm just so grateful that you're so open. But before we end, I always ask for three take-home tips, and I am just going to ask three really simple questions. Three things why people should buy this book. Someone like me is an expression of hope and gratitude and I've already had so much positive reaction

from people and I hope it just resonates and gives guidance and makes people feel like they're not alone and I think it kind of touches people in different ways but it's been good for me and I hope it's good for others yeah well you've already had such great feedback

of course it is and just thank you so much for all your energy and love thank you thank you very much Louise Cheers.