The Dumb Zone FREE - The Dumb Zone 3-14-24 - Lawyers Part Three

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Step into the courtroom drama of the century, without ever leaving your headphones! In today's gripping episode of The Dumb Zone, we take you behind the scenes of a real-life legal battle that's more intense than any TV show. Our hosts, Dan and Jake, along with their tenacious legal squad, recount the nail-biting moments of a hearing that could have silenced their podcast for good. Witness the emotional rollercoaster as Jake gets choked up on the stand, defending the very heart of their show against a corporate Goliath. Marvel at Dan's cool-headed quips that had the court chuckling and their opponents scrambling. And when the judge throws a curveball suggesting a settlement, the plot thickens. Will our hosts triumph and keep the podcast waves flowing, or will they be muzzled by the heavy hand of their former employer?This isn't just about a podcast; it's a fight for freedom of speech, a battle of wits, and a testament to the power of preparation. Don't miss out on the episode that everyone will be talking about – because when The Dumb Zone goes to court, it's an all-out war of words and wills. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Hello, I'm Dan McDowell, longtime professional broadcaster. Why subscribe to our Patreon podcast? Well, perhaps you support our struggle to get out from under the oppressive thumb of the man. Or, objectively, if you sign up at patreon.com slash the dumb zone, you'll get the two episodes per week that are available on all podcast platforms, like this one, plus an additional two episodes each week that are exclusive to Patreon. So subscribing on Patreon gets you four episodes per week. Oh my, what a bargain. Now, on to today's program.

The Dunza, Dunza, Dunza. What you are witnessing is real. The participants are not actors. They are actual litigants with a case pending in a California municipal court. Both parties have agreed to dismiss their court cases and have their dispute settled here, in our forum, the People's Court. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. That's what preceded Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown and Judge Softy.

The People's Court? Yeah, that was the original, the OG. My grandpa watched that every day oh really oh yeah i'm very familiar is that judge wapner yeah you're ready for wapner that's the little rain man yeah i guess i don't remember that but i remember the intro and i remember as they were walking up it's the yeah yeah we were in court blake yeah yeah the weirdest part about it was that uh like dan would go in and put down a boom box and then just like press play on that come back out and walk in so that it would be doing the ba-bom-bom whenever we walked in every day and

i'm like all right man i guess i love a theme. A little intro music. So the first two episodes were you guys leaving the ticket. Jake got served at his house. You're preparing for what could be a trial. Then the last episode was how it helped your lawyers actually knew who you were because that was a theme in the last episode of how, you know, a lot of the other side's lawyers were asking you, like, what a benchmark was. And it really helped that your people knew who you were. Yeah, they listened to the station.

They knew the beds. Yeah. And then went through Woodshed Weekend. And then here we are. This episode is strictly about the hearing. Which is the meat, right? It's where the transcripts came from and this is probably the episode everyone

has been dying to hear. It's just about the hearing. What a sell. Yeah, I almost want to listen. You should. But I'm in France. Yeah. We're recording this ahead of time. So we're recording this later.

We did the lawyer roundtable, six-hour slog. It was a long day, man. Talk about woodshed. It kind of feels like just sitting around talking for six hours should be easy. In fact, ask my wife if I have a hard job. She will be like, what? You just sit there and talk. You would have to ask mine if she even considers this a job.

Yeah. But I was so beat that day. So we recorded that. Blake has cut it up very nicely. And now we're just recording the intros for the week. I guess today is Thursday, March something, 11, 12, 13, 14, I think, right? 14th?

Okay. March 10th. So I'd like to keep the theme here and just play you like a brief clip because like you said, we were recording for so long and I want to make sure I get y'all's opinions on what we're doing. So I thought this was very interesting, and I'm pretty sure if I remember right, this is more so Dan's call of it would have been very easy just to parade your former coworkers on the stand.

However, that would have created a weird situation for them where they're having to explain truths and then have to go back and work for the company. So I thought this clip from the episode is really interesting. And I'm not criticizing you, Philip. You're an awesome lawyer and you want to win and you want to ensure that we're going to win. And so I'm going to call all the witnesses I can to win. You're like, hey, I think I have a 90% chance of winning. If I call these other people, I have a 95% chance and I'm going to do it. It was less about that than about causing pain.

And this is the thing that you were very resistant to the entire time. Litigation, really any kind of negotiation, is about the use of pressure, positive and negative. And what we knew is that they were hypersensitive to negative press. And so if we put Bob on the stand, for instance, we could have gotten some really kick-ass testimony that would have cast them in the shittiest possible light. And that's what I was trying to do. And I have a personal relationship to deal with there.

As do I. Same with some of the advertisers I didn't want to call in. Like, hey, I'm just trying not to... And we have another example of me listening to you. He's still pliable. If we called in people that worked for the ticket,

they have to go back and work for the ticket again. For the same people who were in the same courtroom with them who also had to testify. That was just something that, and that really was why, like, when everything broke down for me that night that Frank is talking about, that was what I was envisioning. So a lot like we talked about last episode, there was a difference between Dan and Jake on the stand.

And then apparently here, there's a difference of how you wanted to win the case and how Phillip did. Phillip wanted to just drag them through the mud and just slaughter them while you were saying, hey, we have to consider the people that still work there. I don't think you should say just me too. Jake was a pretty major part of this.

I would say that was one area where we were pretty much in total alignment. Yeah. Dan and I, not necessarily all members of council, but they're doing what they know how to do. Yeah. I mean, they're doing it the way that they've done it before.

That's why they are very good at what they do. It was just that, yeah, on this particular issue and on a number of other ones, Dan and I were just like, I don't know, man. And I'm sure they didn't receive that well at first. Well, and the thing is, they didn't want to lose.

Yeah. I didn't want them to lose. They would have shut us down. This was just a thing to shut down the podcast. And then there would still be a trial to come. Yeah. And there were definitely discussions about who all is going to get hit with this, and it was going to be

basically anybody who's worked there. Anybody who works there now, anybody who's worked there whenever, everybody would be deposed. You'd get a subpoena. They could bring it to your house like they did for me with the cease and desist. And like that just to me, I don't know.

Seemed way too far. I was just like, I don't know. We would have if it got to trial and you had to. You have to do what you got to do. But at that time, for me, I was just like, man, what if we could just not have that happen? So there's a ton of good nuggets in this one. Obviously, it's all about the hearing. have that happen.

So there's a ton of good nuggets in this one. Obviously it's all about the hearing. If anyone followed the court case and read the transcripts, this gets all into that. Colley, Frank Colley going at them and Jake's moment and there's a ton here. It's a meaty episode. It's a little longer than the rest, but this

is, if you're looking for the perfect encapsulation of the hearing, this episode is it. Man, the trial, or no, hearing. It wasn't a trial, a hearing. Felt like a trial. Mini trial. But to me, it was incredible,

and I thought everybody was incredible in that. Frank, it seemed like TV. It's like, let's take a look at this. Rewind the tape and what you said earlier. Let's just lead him down a path. One of the days when you weren't there, it might have been when we were in Liz's office. I don't remember, but I don't know.

I was so anxious and so nervous and just trying to relieve my nerves a little bit, and I made all of them listen to my impression of each of them do you guys remember this very good mediation it might have been media it was mediation when you weren't there i mean frank's the down home let's hear it man uh you know what i'd rather hear i'd rather hear frank go at blake i don't know if he could just flip it like that. And Mr. Jones.

It's always the lean forward, the glasses off. Yeah, like take the glasses, set it down. Yeah. Well, Bob, the mediator, and I were both very convinced that they were not going to go forward with the September 15th hearing. And Bob's specific word to me was, they shouldn't. So, you know, I was surprised that they felt like they had to have a courtroom outcome. And I can only assume that that's because of some dynamic between the client and the lawyer. I don't know what else to ascribe that to. And so I was, you know, we felt there. I think your team, the four of us felt extremely confident that you guys were as prepped as

you possibly needed to be. And part of the reason that the prep is difficult and it does wear you the hell out like that. And it's not just you, Dan, It's everybody. Anybody who spends a day trying to get prepped for court is going to feel really tired. And it's because what we're doing is trying to put you through something that is worse than what you're going to experience on the stand. Sure. Like working out. You did. You did. Because I kept thinking the day we woke up while we're in court, like once before I got called up there, they got some – there's a zinger.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Some smoking gun or something. I've said a lot of stuff. Yeah. I don't remember anything. I'm sure I said something and they pulled – they're going to play a piece of audio that I'm not ready for. They're going to make me look – they're going to pull my pants down up here. What do

they have? There is something that... How many conversations did you and I have like that? That our lawyers didn't think of. Every night Dan and I were like, what are we not... What are we not seeing? Yes, and I think Matt's even told us once he's like, I woke up at four and I'm just reading everything again

because I'm trying to think what did I miss? Because their behavior was so irrational, and this is the thread through all of this, is you're like, okay, you're trying to make sense of it, and it didn't make sense. And I mean, we saw with the hearing, which I'm sure you're going to get into, it was a disaster for them. Maybe something was planted from one of those Reddit or My Ticket Confession was like, they've got a, they're going to put a, they got a boot or they got a trump card or something was like a –

I don't want a boot. No, I'm like they got it. These are high – We have a ragtag group of lawyers that don't know each other. They've never worked together. I don't know them. work together. I don't know them.

They have like this huge, high-priced firm that when I told McCool who their firm, he's like, oh, that's a big time. Oh, my gosh. This guy's an NLRB expert. You know, like, oh, my gosh. Who's Matt Brunig? He's this guy who bothers people on Twitter. And it's like, I don't know.

Maybe they've got to have some kind of, you know, it's intimidating when you see a group of guys walk in with their briefcases. Oh, extremely. And it's true. And they've got money to, you know, there's no end to their money. They could let this go for two years. That's what Liz would tell it. Like, hey, you know, do you guys have the money to let this go for two years? I don't know.

You know, no no we don't um and they're you know uh so anyway but it never came it never what there was never the zinger that um you know we can start talking the trial uh now and i don't know if you want not trial sorry the hearing but to me like i mean i don't know what you guys were surprised with but when they brought up like uh you know did you ever think of geofencing your podcast? And I'm like, no. Like, I think what they're referring to is kind of a technology. What I'm aware of it is with the scooters. When you have a scooter in Los Angeles, you can drive around,

but when you get close to the Staples Center, all of a sudden it just stops working. Yeah, I mean... Like there's some technology in the air that makes it, okay, it won't... I don't know how it does it, but... GPS. I guess they can shut down something, right?

You can be in a room where no cell phones will work because they have a... And I think the most common iteration of it is online gambling. Right? Like you can't go to Pennsylvania's... You can gamble online in Pennsylvania. It's just like the lottery. So they were saying you should have done something to make your podcast not be available to anyone.

Basically, they were saying that you should check the IP of everyone who comes in and the location of that IP and only people who are not in the DFW area. YouTube TV, if you're out of market, you can't. This was sort of their third way between saying you can't podcast at all

and saying, no, we're not saying that he couldn't podcast at all, but he couldn't podcast in this area. Yeah, and that was a surprise. That had not been in any of their pleadings. That had not been in their complaint. Yeah, that's my one surprise. It did come as a surprise,

and I sort of wish we would have seen that argument before because afterwards I looked into it, and it was a ridiculous argument. The only way you could actually do that is if you control the means of broadcasting. In other words, you can't do it. We controlled Patreon.com. If you're putting your stuff on Patreon, you can't geofence. You can only do it on your own hosted website. If you own the means of broadcasting, whether it's the radio station or, you know, they use geofencing a lot in advertising. Like, they'll shoot out ads, but we only want ads around our store to cell phones that are around our store.

That kind of thing you can do, but you have to be in control of the means of broadcasting. And when you guys put your stuff on Apple Podcasts or Patreon or YouTube, you don't have any control over who does and doesn't see it. Well, what they were trying to do was, look, we know they didn't have anything. That was the closest thing that they had. And we know they hadn't thought of it before then because they never mentioned it in mediation. And what they were trying to do is create a situation. And this goes back to what you were talking about, Dan. It's not a contract. It's not just a contract. That's never how these things go. There's a baseline requirement of reasonableness of whatever relief the judge is going to grant and so showing unreasonableness in related matters is incredibly important to your case that's why we were hammering you on that so much um and so the what they were trying

to do with that last ditch desperate bullshit geofencing question is to try to get a hook into the judge to say okay maybe i'll issue a very limited preliminary injunction that says you got to geofence your podcast now if that had happened we would have like had the argument about that's not actually possible your honor and and you know all that stuff would have would have gone from there there was no reason to really deal with it especially after dan swatted it into the second level of the seats and uh but that that's you know it it sucks and it's not explainable in rational terms but it's just they showed up with a bag of nothing nothing when i liked your uh one one thing that was new before the second hearing was they designated a

potential witness i forgot about that guy and we and we were a little worried we were like what is this so frank took his deposition you know was it a couple days before it was friday before monday hearing yeah yeah and yeah they for for the listeners they they designated an expert who was an expert on the listening habits of of audio listeners all forms radio a podcast streaming books on audio he was a he was a surveyor and he did tons and tons of surveys on what people spent their time listening to and essentially what they were designated him for was to say that any podcast it competes with the ticket because your regular audio consumer only spends a certain finite amount of time in a day consuming audio content of whatever kind. an audio form that was eating it that would be eating into the tickets um audience again because there's only a finite amount of time that people spend listening to or consuming audio products and it was super general it had no application to this case whatsoever and what i mean by that is

he he hadn't done any analysis didn't have any data on Dallas-Fort Worth as a market, sports radio as a sub-market, and what kind of impact podcasting in general was having on the specific market of DFW sports listening. So in the law, we call that an analytical gap he has an opinion that's probably a valid opinion but it doesn't apply to the facts of our case and his his what what i know phillips wanted to jump on is he called he called this whole concept the share of ear and that really got phillips goat from the very beginning i it's still so funny to me though it being essentially you can't listen to two things at once and i can't remember exactly what the judge said but at the end of his testimony she was kind of like okay like why did we do this yeah because i felt like i felt like he was confusing uh like an economic concept of

competition with a legal concept of competition. They all seem to be mixing that up. It's not enough to say that someone who's listening here might listen less. It has to be that the form of what you're doing is also competitive, not just in a market share sense, but in similarity of what you're doing exactly. sense but in in similarity of what you're doing exactly yeah and also you guys are convicted the because customer is is the is the advertiser that's the actual consumer market it's not the listener and you weren't taking average i thought the whole thing was really oh that was another part i think that was the most central point who's the customer correct yeah and that we're taking customers away from the ticket. Well, no. Yeah.

We clearly told customers that wanted to pay us, we're not in that business. There were a couple of other, you know, there's times where I think all three or maybe all four of you guys said that you do this routinely. I know Dan and I do it with the show, but where you just get out and you're like, man, why didn't I say this? Why didn't I think of this? There's been like 20 different things. And I'm like, why didn't I pass Frank this note? Why didn't I tell Liz this? Like

the part where they were complaining about us having confidential info because of the ratings. I mean, they literally have instructed an employee to post the ratings on the internet. And I have at times pushed back on that a little bit because I feel like to me, that's like actually my work info that I don't know that we should be putting that out there. You know, sometimes it doesn't look great on us. Usually it does. But I just, I always thought it was weird that we like have a, like a surrogate part-time employee who posts our ratings on us. Usually it does. But I just, I always thought it was weird that we like have a, like a surrogate part-time employee who posts our ratings on Reddit. And then they're going to go in front of a judge and say, well, these guys have rating and ratings info that is somehow proprietary and

exclusionary. And not even think of the fact that I know there's a guy that you've had posted on the internet. Also, anyone can buy these. You can't buy them. I mean, Barry Horn used to do it every month or at least every three months. So, you know, that's not confidential. I'm sorry. It's a third party that sells it to anyone who wants to buy it. You can buy it for sure. But it just, it made me insane that it's like,

you actually have a guy post it every month. Well, it used to be the law in Texas that confidential information was one of the only things that could support a non-compete, and that law unfortunately has changed a little bit. But they were trying to make the argument that you guys had confidential information, and I have

been having this argument with Cumulus for years now about there is no such thing as confidential information that you would give to a radio host like if you had kind of confidential information that's the last person you'd give it to yes please don't give it to us we are we are we are reckless and their their response to that if you guys remember from the negotiation was that if you guys know the details of a remote or a promotion, that's totally confidential because your competitors could make hay out of that, which also isn't quite true.

But again, these are things that you're about to advertise. Like, you don't tell the host if it's confidential. There's a promo that will be coming out. It's pretty public. Here's my court notes, and then anybody jump out. So this is the hearing, the actual hearing, which at the end of it, I believe the temporary injunction was denied by the judge.

I have that written in my notes. Correct. So this is Friday, the 15th of September. At first, everybody's sitting around whispering. There was a squeaky chair and they had somebody come in to remove it, which I... He's very meticulous. I just thought it was just odd, but that's annoying to the judge, and I guess, you know. Then we start with let us pray, which I certainly grew up understanding that there's a separation of church and state, but then I suppose when you— If you take a look at your money. Swear on a Bible and God, yeah, it's, I just let us pray, threw me for a loop, like, oh, okay.

I guess we were sitting in, there are pews, you know, and there's a box of Kleenex in every aisle. The judge started out saying she was not happy with the filings yesterday. it out saying she was not happy with the filings yesterday um that was the stuff about philip on his podcast and us playing nasty audio or something i don't know um then it was the plaintiff opening statement to be clear she wasn't happy with their filing i guess she also she wasn't happy by trying to play below both sides like hey but you but, you know, regarding their filing, Phillip, why are you spouting off on your podcast? Yeah. That's kind of what she said.

She was upset that you were doing it, but, yeah, she was upset with their filing, and she didn't like that we were going tit for tat, and so I will take the hit for that because Phillip was very against filing anything. Oh, we filed a response. He read her right, and he was like, the judge is going to know this is, you know, BS, and she's not going to pay attention to it. But because of how, like, serious the allegations they made in there were, I just felt like, you know, we can't not say anything. We have to, like, defend ourselves, you know. And so we did, we filed a short, like, one- to two-page thing.

But you were right, Philip, we should not have. And for people who have read the transcript, that's what she was referring to when she said that she felt like the kids were fighting in the sandbox. By the way, this is fast-forwarding, but fast-forward a couple weeks later when we're now in another mediation and actually came to a settlement by the end of that. It was big news in the courtroom when they found out somebody had bought the transcript

because it's apparently a high dollar item. Yeah, that had to have been at least $1,000. It was $1,700. To buy the transcript. We've since communicated with that guy. Yes. But it was not at our behest. I want to be clear about that.

I was surprised that someone, yeah, just for fun was at our behest i want to be i was surprised that someone yeah just for fun was like i'm immediately going to request the transcript yeah man i need to read this it would have been a lot more in state court i believe he put it out he put it out on twitter and whatnot that that day right yeah yeah we if you'll remember the judge when we first started the mediation that day, and for the listeners, what happened was the judge had volunteered to serve as a mediator after our hearing to try to get the case settled. And we took her up on that. The day that it started, she announced to us, somebody has requested the transcript. Does anybody have any objection to us releasing it?

And I think the only thing was... What kind of you guys, guys like am i supposed to yeah well the only the only issue was it contained like your salary information and she wanted to know whether we wanted that redacted yeah i mean if we fast if we're talking about that the judge actually helped with the uh you know we're the ones who requested that, you know, because when this all ended, she said, all right, both parties. You know, she was like, look, lawyers, why don't we – it seems like in this case we could just have the people get together and decide, blah, blah, blah. And I think she correctly read it, and not that it was you guys. You guys were our defense team.

We weren't on the offense. But it was kind of like a, hey, it seems like the individuals here, the local people there at the business, and then us, seems like you kind of all want this to go away, so why don't you guys, and yes, I'm the one who called Dan Bennett. I was going to say, I think it speaks to the integrity of Bennett. That, you know, for whatever, you get crossways and negotiations or whatever, but it wasn't like he was just not going to answer your call.

No, he's great. We'd already been in court for X amount of hours. Right, no, we had been through the hearing. We already had done the whole thing that we didn't want to do, and he was still like, yeah, I want to be. Right, let's figure this out. He already had done the whole thing that we didn't want to do, and he was still like, yeah, I want to be. Right. Let's figure this out. And, yeah, to Dan Bennett's credit for sure.

I'm not sure everybody would have done that. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. Okay, we unpause here. No puppet. Or maybe this is a whole new show. We don't know. It's a marathon session

with our awesome dream team of attorneys. And Blake will just tell people to go back and listen to episode one for the introductions to all that. What a jerk. Me? You were the one that was the jerk. Just put them in the show notes. Put them in the show notes. Say your names again.

Who are you? No, I'm Frank Hawley. Liz Griffin. Philip Kingston. McCool Kelker. Okay. And then Brunig's gone. And you? I think our audience knows our voices.

Okay. And then you? These three or four new people that they're hearing, they may just want to get voices straight. I just thought we needed to reset everything. Jake Kemp, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm the idiot. Jacob Matthew.

At all. And now, I will say this. I've never hung out with all of you guys and at the end of it not been completely exhausted. And I think today is proving. I thought, oh, we'll do this in two hours. We'll go get something to eat. Like, this has been a long, long, and I'm sure in the next, if we can wrap this a half hour, hour, I'll be exhausted by the end of it.

So back to the middle of the hearing. Not a trial, the hearing. But I do want to say this. This is another thing, and it's a bit self-serving, but obviously we didn't want the trial or the hearing to ever happen we tried to push that back we tried to do everything we could we didn't want this negativity once we did have the hearing scheduled now this is the difference in personalities philip was ready to call a bunch of witnesses from former co-workers of ours.

We're going to compel them. What do you call it? Subpoena. Send a subpoena. They're going to have to be up here. They'll tell the truth. The people that we had called trying to get this pushed forward know some of the things that we could publicize that would look very bad

if we had to go to a hearing. And then there's other stuff. And it's all just subjective look bad. Maybe not. But in my mind, I don't want to be negative towards these guys I've worked with for a long time, even the ticket in general. I love them. general you know uh i love them so uh you know and that's when i think maybe the weekend prior uh we stepped forward and said hey wait wait like we have we've already been assured you know

frank liz philip matt they're all like we've got a great chance like this the fact that they are going through with the hearing it's a bad job by them we're going to do fine we're going to come out of that fine like i guess what i mean by that is they will not put a temporary restraining order on you you're going to be able to podcast now there might be a trial though at the end um and that's where we kind of said, hey, let's hold off the big guns. Like you obviously could just destroy them right here, but you also thought, well, I'll also win if I just use one gun. And that's like, say, you know, Adam Romo was the guy who was going to testify.

I had other advertisers who I could have gotten to court, but I knew I better save that for a trial so that's all I just wanted to state if anybody disagrees agrees remembers that I think I may be remembering wrong but I think at that point we were not at all thinking the case would settle anymore because we did not we didn't know the judge was gonna to say at the end of the hearing, I can get involved in a settlement conference or something. And so we went into the hearing being like, okay, well, we're doing this hearing.

Then we're doing discovery. Then we're going to trial. And I'm not criticizing you, Phillip. You're an awesome lawyer and you want to win. And you want to ensure that we're going to win. And so I'm going to call all the witnesses I want to win and you want to ensure that we're going to win and so i'm going to call all the witnesses i can to win well you're like hey i think i have a 90 chance of winning if i call these other people i have a 95 chance and i'm going to do it it was less about that than

about causing pain um and this is the thing this is the thing that you were very resistant to the entire time that litigation really any kind of negotiation is about the use of pressure positive and negative and what we knew is that they were hypersensitive to negative press and so if we put bob on the stand for instance we could have gotten some really kick-ass testimony that would have cast them in the shittiest possible light and that's what i was trying to do and i have a personal relationship to deal with yeah there as do i did same with some of the advertisers i didn't want to call in like hey i you know yeah i'm just trying not to and and we have another example of me listening because

yeah and those right and those, right, and those. He's so pliable. Yeah, those people, if we called in people that worked for the ticket, they have to go back and work for the ticket again. For the same people who were in the same courtroom with them, who also had to testify. That was just something that, and that really was why, like, when everything broke down for me that night that Frank is talking about,

that was what I was envisioning. Because as Liz said, like at that point, I thought, all right, well, we're definitely doing this. It is kind of interesting that to me, the radio station works really well, because in large part, it doesn't have a ton of oversight from the way that the rest of corporate radio works. You know, I know that there are other radio stations that try to do this whole we're rebels against the man. The ticket just is. But there were some things it was kind of like, all right, well...

It was clear... Do the people who are representing them really want to know? Right, it was clear in our negotiations that some things that the parent company doesn't know, they don't have huge communication.

They're not really aware. What other people are doing on the side or whatever. It was kind of like us, you know, one of the, the whole podcast thing was a hypothetical. Like we like to be able to do something. Okay.

So are you going to do, you're going to do a sports podcast then? Uh, no. And then that's where dan bennett would jump in and say yeah but actually the ticket isn't totally sport like he had to explain to the higher ups several times he had that was in contract negotiations that led here um so it's it's like no no that's you know i think but it's kind of the gift and the curse, right? Yes. Oh, yeah. It was so weird that there was so little communication from ticket-level people up to the supposed brains behind the corporation.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I've never worked anywhere else, so I don't know how most of these organizations' flowcharts work. I don't know how like most of these organizations flow charts work, but in any case, I feel like we were to the point where we're saying we were trying to be somewhat cool. Yeah, it was, it was a theme, the whole thing, all the way through. Dan was like, it's the be cool strategy. And they just, and we talked about this, you know, the reason they thought y'all were doing nefarious things is because they do nefarious things.

Like, they're assuming your behavior is like their behavior. And so, you know, I don't... It was... It never got through to them that we were trying to be cool. I think it got through to some people, but maybe not to people at upper levels. So we're in a hearing. You nailed it that time. We prayed.

You have the plaintiff opposing statement or opening statement. Then you have our opening statement. So remember, they're the plaintiff. They are, you know, they're trying to stop us. We're just Little Red Riding Hood. We're doing nothing. Also known as defendants. We're the defendants.

Then it's so apparently the defendants. Then it's so apparently the way this works, it's the plaintiff goes first calling witnesses. And that was a question, right? Did we know whether they were going to call their people or our people first? Is that a choice? It's their choice.

We talked a lot about it. Because thought maybe conjecture, they'll call Jake first or me first. I don't remember what we thought, but what they did was they called, it looks like, I don't remember if it was Dan Bennett or Jeff Catlin first. Catlin. Cat was first? Cat was first.

Okay. So then I'll just tell you my perspective of this, never having been in a trial. So somebody, maybe Liz, had given us post-it notes. And so the bit is you've got post-it notes and a pen, you know, I think Frank could use this information or Lit. You know, I would jot something down and I'd hand it over to Liz. And then she'd maybe decide, okay, this is worthy of Frank or maybe it's not worthy of Frank. Or I'd hand something just for Jake. It's a picture of a wiener. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we went through a lot of post-its

yeah it's it's in maybe we'll post these someday I don't know I think that's probably not legal but I don't know

it's my notes from I mean during it was okay you could have been a I mean who would I ask yeah you don't know any lawyers

I don't know any lawyers yeah had to do with show budget paying for our websites Yeah. You don't know any lawyers. I don't know any lawyers. Yeah. Had to do with show budget, paying for our websites. I'm just looking at different things. Ratings. They were saying us leaving was hurting the ratings. And we're like, well, Norm left the week before. Are you saying Norm leaving didn't hurt? Yeah, that could have hurt the ratings. And obviously the ratings have been fine. Quite fine. Since we've left.

So, like, none of their original arguments held up and would have looked even worse had a trial gotten there in December, I would think. Because, okay, now you've come off three number one books and these guys were doing a rep or a haunt, you know, whatever. Well, you know, I think the key part of that testimony, I mean, Catlin's cross-examination under Frank was very useful for us because I think he came off as not being very forthcoming with the court. Yeah, and you did a really good job of reading him. Yeah, but I think, you know, we finally, it took a bit of doing,

we finally got Bennett to admit that at a sort of a normal number of listeners for midday or wherever is like maybe 100,000 people. At any given point in the day, that's a pretty good estimate of how many are listening. And so at that point, y'all had... And that might even be adding up a few hours. I don't know. Yeah.

Because I always thought at one particular time it might be like 25,000. But still. But I'm talking out of my rear end. At that point, we knew exactly how many listeners y'all had, and it was like 3,600. Yeah.

And so we were like well Mr. Bennett where did the other 95,000 go yeah you know because that's what they were trying to do is say and certainly our 3,600 at the time were not all listening all men between the age of 25 54 who lived in DFW we could prove that if it ever got to a trial, we would have been, okay, here's the guy in France that listens. Here's a lady, you know, a woman in DFW. They don't care. That's not in their ratings at all. They don't care.

We like the ladies. Boy, do we. But you don't remember our names. Liz. Hell yeah. Was that in court? Yeah. Twice in court. What did I do? And then you did it no it's on the podcast philip

did it twice in court and then you did it and i have been waiting for this because for my own ego i would like to clarify this the whole time i was like on paper it looks like i am just sitting here in a skirt for window dressing because i had no speaking role. And we had discussions about this. And Philip wanted me to have a speaking role. You are Aaron Andrews, our eye candy on the sideline. You're not making it better. Well, that's what it looks like. And I know, and I know you guys know, and hopefully from my participation in this conversation,

it's clear that I had a substantive role. But, you know, Philip Philip you wanted me to uh maybe question Adam Romo or give you know one of the arguments and I pushed back on it because that's not my like I'm an appellate attorney you guys are the trial attorneys so I knew it's not gonna be best for you guys. I wanted you to argue the judgment as a matter of law. Oh yes. Which we wound up not even getting to make that motion yeah i was going to argue if we had a chance to argue the nlrb preemption piece but we decided not to because it was clearly not the time um and i certainly saw the way jake and i reacted to your suggestions we took them more often than no i know i'm. You were the voice of reason amongst a lot of this kind of stuff.

Oh, no. I know my value. Okay, yeah. I just want to make clear for the record. But me forgetting someone's name, that's that badge of honor for you. Well, it was the coincidence that the only people who have forgotten names, it's always my name. And twice for Phillip, it was in front of the judge, who was a female judge. So I know he didn't do it on purpose.

Right. No, she hates me. And we just spent two days together the full day. So it's not like, you know, we don't know each other. But it was... It was such a brain fart. I know. I was really, like, struggling.

Well, because you turned around and I didn't know what you were doing. I was like, it took me a while to be like... I didn't know what I was doing. Griffin. Yeah. But I did not want to take Adam Romo. I did not want to make an argument because I knew that is not what I was doing. Griffin. Yeah. But I did not want to take Adam Romo. I did not want to make an argument because I knew that is not what I'm good at. That would not serve

you guys best. So it's fine however it looks. My best spot is sitting here paying attention, which I can't do if I'm trying to prepare to question someone. And then, you know, passing notes from the appellate perspective so what happened

was so their first they get to say stuff to jeff catlin to cat our immediate supervisor at the ticket um they go back and forth and then we get to cross examine him right that's always how it works i guess okay so right away or did they do their thing with cat then they did something with bennett no then they did us and then we go back and call cat back or you get to respond right away yeah they do they do what's called direct examination first all right that's basically put their witness on to tell their story and then we do immediately after they're done with their direct examination, we start cross-examination. That's how it went for each witness. Direct cross, direct cross.

And I feel like this is where I would say, I think their lawyers, you guys have already made points of saying, boy, I'm not sure the lawyers did a great job in this particular case. lawyers did a great job in this particular case this is one where so now their big thing with jeff catlin was um these guys are causing terrible harm they need to stop their podcast because of all the harm uh well where's the evidence of that you gotta you can't just say that okay well look at all these uh emails that they got and they would say um hey i hate cumulus i'm gonna follow dan uh dan and jake uh i'm i'm not you know i can't believe they didn't uh you guys couldn't get a deal done uh dan and jake forever like a lot of good things about us that's why i like to look online around that point uh a lot of you know like vitriol towards uh the company and uh so then they were saying, okay, let's put up the...

And it's like a movie. And there's a big screen. It's a lot more like a movie than people... People are always like, it's not like a movie. It is. Yeah, at least this part. So there's a big projector screen

or I guess computer nowadays, but whatever. It's up on... We can see it up there and it would be like, all right, let's take a look at this email. And this was from Steve and then it'd be really funny

because there'd be like some funny bits in there too. But the highlighted parts weren't the funny bits. No, there were some things that I feel like they probably could have cropped out. That they didn't. But again, a litany of those emails. And then at the end, it's like, you see, Your Honor, these terrible guys.

And one, I think some of it was like some audio they played of us, of, you know, Akash Singh in studio and all that. That might have been when you were up there. The point is, okay, so this is their big evidence. Reddit and message boards and, you know, emails that they got that were very angry. And so this is why these guys are just – look at how they are imploring their listeners, the people to stop listening to the ticket. And so this is why you got these – and then you noticed something while they were doing this. And now we're passing notes back and forth and whispering.

And so you felt pretty good about when you did step up to do some cross-examination. And now this is where I think it was. You were, it was like Matlock. It was a... Sick reference. That is super current, topical, and sick. Well, he just seems like the country lawyer. He's just, you fit like an old glove.

You're just, you're a very comfortable guy. You know, Philip looks like he's, you know, you though, you're like, I'm a friend. No, I'm just saying, Philip, you know, looks more, you know. He bailed out on both descriptions. He looks like a litigator. He's like, I'm lawyer, you know, and you're like, look, I'm just a guy. We're just talking

here. You just had this friendly feel about you that, you know. Very comfortable. Mr. Catlin, did you say that, and then you pull up one of the emails. Can you read that passage again? Yeah, Dan and Jake and the humorous bat.

Okay, let me, you also pointed to this email, did you not? Yes, yes, and then you pointed to this email, and then you summarized it with, so you're asserting that these, and this transcript is available, you're asserting that these people left because Dan and Jake started a podcast. That's right. Okay. Dan and Jake started their podcast on July 27th. Can we go back to email one? Can you please read the date that you received that email?

And it would be like July 18th. And now we know where you're going, and everybody knows, but we still are doing the – You go through every single email. We're still in the performance. And, you know, it's like we could have ended it right there. All right. Can you bring up email two again, please?

Bailiff, whoever brings it. Can you read the, and then you made him say the date of each of these emails. And to me, that was a to me, I would say not a blunder on Kat's part, but a blunder on the lawyers. How would lawyers who are paid,

you know, he's not paid big money to figure out what's going to fly in court. But some people are, and they would see that, know all the dates involved, and still say, yeah, let's go ahead with this. This is a good, this is our strategy. his direct testimony i was dumbfounded um because they specifically blamed the two of you for the narrative that the ticket is cheap i forgot about this part yes yeah open the door and and so you know i i started with the the drop. We had to explain the drop. A cumulus station. A cumulus station.

Yeah. And I got him to admit that's been a drop for decades that's played when there's a reference to the ticket being cheap. But then I had to go through the emails. So, you know, and you're right, Dan. What I was doing was i was setting him up so you remember your testimony that the emails you got led you to believe that dan and jake were the reason that listeners think you're cheap they're responsible for the cheap narrative yes yes yes and then i hit him with the dates. Because they did, it was the clip of Alkosh saying

they low-balled you or whatever on your contract. Yeah, and so then when I hit him with the dates and all those emails predated the very first episode of the dumb zone, I got him to admit, which he had to,

that none of the emails were proof or that the emails could not be proof that Dan and Jake was the genesis of the cheap narrative. The only thing I'll say about the emails. Some of the emails said, yeah, you guys are too cheap to pay these guys. Like when we got that binder of evidence, you know, we all got one and took it home. It was weeks before. So I think we got it binder of evidence, you know, we all got one and took it home. It was weeks before. So I think we got it at the first hearing setting. So we knew two weeks in advance what they had planned for their exhibits to be.

And they knew from us too. And it was weird to me too. Like, I don't know, Dan and I talk about this sometimes. And if you're, we kind of touched on it with you guys and like the message boards or Reddit or whatever. We kind of touched on it with you guys in the message boards or Reddit or whatever. It just felt to me like they're not – a lot of times management is not really in the position of getting the volume of feedback that we get. Like I get tons of people – and it's not as bad now, but used to. I mean I would have somebody tell me to kill myself every day.

It was just like part of the deal. Sorry about that. I mean at some point you're just like, well, the fifth time it doesn't even hurt. Yeah, it was just like part of the deal you know sorry about that i mean at some point you're just like well the fifth time it doesn't even hurt it's just noise yeah whatever like i get to do this cool job because i'm a public figure i mean i would imagine every single person who's a public figure that's part of it right so they get a lot of positivity because they're in charge of the ticket exactly and then like for this first time you know here's 20 exhibits of hey we got a mean email and i was like i think i said to you guys multiple times i was like this is just tuesday to me like how did you actually submit like mean tweets and mean emails is like we're being we're being uh irreparably harmed here i'm like this is just my life

it's all of our lives like if you're doing this job i thought that was really i don't know if i want to say soft but i would say tone deaf at a minimum was it at this hearing or before that that the judge i think she said on the record that the court had received an email from she sent it to us she forwarded the email to us from a listener who emailed the court's chambers yeah that was didn't know how to handle that yeah emailed the court's chambers basically saying that they should rule for dan and jane but before we get off the i promise that's not my ip address before we get off the the issue of the emails because that was my favorite part of the cross-examination i want to give some shout outs to jacob and denver yes who is subby 428

michael marks travis williams sub subby 1571 brian thompson subby 232. Michael Bublik and Eric Frazier, who were the emailers. He reached out to all of them and found their sub-numbers. And I want to give a special shout-out to Michael Bublik, because his email made Cat testify in trial, that makes me feel bad. He did say that. I forgot that. So I just wanted to give a shout out to those guys

because they played a role in the trial as well. You had a Colorado lawyer who also helped you out a little bit. I can't remember how. He ran down some case law for us. He had limited time to help us and we did actually have like a discrete task he could do so that was great

um okay so anything else you want to bring up from that particular cross-examination or we move on to i mean did we hit the highlights for me did you get all your highlights in there i felt like there was a lot floating around Twitter that were your – Yeah, there was more. You know, the one thing that – When were you great, Frank? That's kind of why I'm trying to be a little bit humble. What do you like to reflect on?

There was one – the one thing that stood out to me the most is when the judge has to interrupt a witness and ask him, did you mean to say that? It's not going good for you. When did that happen? I forgot that. Yeah, because my question was, you know, something to the effect of, you know, you got all these emails. These people are mad. And they're mad at you for filing a lawsuit. these emails these people are mad and they're mad at you for filing a lawsuit and they're mad at you for the things that cumulus did not the things that dan and jake did so none of these emails

none of the angst that is reflected in any of these emails is dan and jake's fault isn't that true and he said yes and she said wait a minute, what did you say? Yeah. They didn't get woodshedded like us. Like I keep saying, I do think we had constant communication with our lawyers and stuff, and I think their lawyers flew in and flew out, and I feel like we were extra, extra prepped, and I just feel like those guys weren't. I don't think they spent near the time that we did preparing for every possible scenario question that could come at them.

Well, and I'll tell you that. That's my opinion. I meant to say this earlier, but that's one of the highest compliments you can give folks like me and Phil. Is that you're... No, no, because they prepared you as a witness. Yeah, but you were sitting there with the notepad. Well, you're right, you're right. No, you're right, all of us. But that's one of the highest compliments

that you can give, that your woodshedding was worse than the actual cross-examination at the hearing. Way worse. That's what we want. And that means that tells us we did our job. Yeah, because you're trying to come up with everything they might even say. Even a, you know, tell us all the skeletons,

see what are they going to come at you with. Yeah. You guys did make it easy, though, in that, you know, a lot of times you have a case and you have a client you love, but you don't necessarily have the best facts. And so, you know, it's not as easy to work with, but you guys, it just, everything we kept finding just made things better and better for you guys. So other than presentation, you really, you didn't have anything to worry about content wise. I thought whenever we were getting ready,

one thing I noticed myself do, and I don't have all my post-it notes, but, uh, I think I might've gone first. No, no, no. I mean like in the weekend prior, like in preparation and like she gave me the review or whatever. And it immediately, it was like, uh, like if you, if you see somebody like make a pizza once and you're like, oh, okay, yeah. When you started, I was like, mm-mm. You knew? Yeah.

I'd done it twice, and at that point I was already like, I'm a chef now. You're grading me? Yeah. There was a couple. Uh-uh. Shouldn't have said that. Well, that's why we do it. Did not like that.

Try to get it right. But I think ultimately you were the, obviously the star. So they called Kat, then they called Bennett, and then I guess Phillip cross-examined Bennett. Dan Bennett, right? What do you like to reflect on, Phillip? Yeah, you're always shy to brag. Yeah.

I think we got key stuff out of Bennett, partly because he probably doesn't need as much prep as a witness, but I think he also wasn't prepped. But I'll bet he's done stuff like that many times. The thing that was interesting to me, and I pretty quickly figured out why it happened, I had a lot more to talk to them about because i was going to walk him through the entire complaint that he swore to

um and get him to say you know now that you've heard this evidence you know that's not true why did you never change this affidavit why did you not alert the court that you'd put false sworn testimony into the record but you know all all these things that you'd put false sworn testimony into the record? All these things that you do to destroy a witness who's gotten caught doing stuff like that. And she didn't want to hear any of it. The judge kind of said, we get it. She did not. No, I mean, it was worse than we get it.

Did she tell you to move on? What are you doing? I don't care about that. And at first I was a little bit irritated and then i pretty quickly figured out all of the testimony was more than she wanted to hear sometimes i am i allowed to say this sometimes i felt like she was kind of doing something else the judges do that yeah a lot a lot of the time because they have i don't have so much going on but i was just like sometimes i'd be over there and i'd look over at her i'm like i feel like you're she did

have like an oculus on yeah no i thought that was weird too yeah she was a apple vision that is a joke that is a comedic vein right well because you know like the the criminal thing that y'all had to watch like the interview time the things leading up to that i'm sure we're coming through her screen you know during the hearing. Well, and I think I'm very proud of the job we did just from, you know, a law, you know, trial skill perspective. I think we did a great job. I really think that she was, she knew before we got there that morning exactly what the outcome was going to be. Now, you know, we lawyers love to think that we're the outcome, you know, and maybe we

did. Like, I think Frank's closing was remarkably detailed and reframed some issues in some ways that the judge had not heard before, which is a really great strategy. It's a great thing to do if you can in a closing. So, like, I feel very proud of of the job we did that day i just think that us knocking down cumulus's witnesses more what wasn't going to help and she didn't want to hear it so that i thought that was just very strange because normally when you've got a witness who has let the court stew on stuff that is demonstrably false, that goes super bad for that witness and whatever party brought them.

And she didn't care and it didn't matter. That's interesting. I agree with you 100%. 100 i think i think she had her mind made up going into that hearing and the hearing all the stuff we talk about all the great cross-examination good we were awesome good closings we were i agree with you we were we did a very good job i agree with you none of it mattered i think she knew going in how she was going to rule and she ruled directly from the bench. And the part of her ruling, which was very interesting, which we had talked about early in trying to put the defense together, and we never really developed it,

because it wasn't the first argument to come to mind. She was extremely concerned about the First Amendment. She was not going to tell somebody they can't podcast. Especially on the disparagement issue. She really honed in on, you know, you got to prove to me that they intended to hurt you in what they said. And she just didn't see it. of his lawyers about Judge Scholler is that with the way the news today is, whether it's true or just a perception, and it is true with certain judges, they've become politicians. There are lots of judges on the appellate bench especially who are not ruling based on real legal thinking or facts or anything and it's it's highly highly partisan

and it's really it's really disturbing to people who practice law like like we do because it makes it impossible to predict what the hell they're going to do uh including follow the law and she's like that's not her she's very old school she's like she's concerned about the First Amendment because she's concerned about the Constitution. And whether we raise it or not, she's like, I'm not messing with these guys' First Amendment rights. That's how it's supposed to be. And it was nice to see that in a judge. Yeah. I thought the whole way through and what you said about she didn't want to hear it on the witness, you know, the witness issue.

of hear it on the witness you know the witness issue and i think that's because since it didn't impact the legal the legal issues she didn't care about it because it's not about ego you know i think how you said a lot of judges will they want to hear that um but i liked that about her that it was just it was straightforward so then like i said the dan the Dan Bennett testimony and the cross-examination. Now it is our turn for us to call who we want to call. Or no, no, no. They are still calling people, right? They called Jake. They called Jake first.

Right. Amongst Dan and Jake. And I got to tell you, although I did feel good about things, I was confident. I was happy you went first. I'm sure you weren't. But for whatever reason, we kept...

What was your mindset knowing, you know, you're a guy who, I don't know if you puked that day or... Yeah, did you puke before? I know. No. But this was all affecting you. You know, it was a heavy scene.

So how did you feel actually once you actually went up there and got up there? You know what was kind of cool about it? I mean, I definitely felt, you know, physiologically affected afterward. But a couple – so like the mornings that we had to go down there, like Dan came to my, uh, to my house in the morning and he was like, uh, you know, he's there. I'm sorry. This is so stupid, but it was just like, you know, it was like 6.30 in the morning. My kids were up and, like, Dan was there, like, with me in the morning. And it, I don't know. It gave me some level of, like, confidence.

Like when I was playing with kids? Yeah, you're, like, playing with my kid before school or whatever. It's, uh, we rode together. And then, yeah, for whatever reason, like like i don't know how we arrived on this but we we felt like it was pretty likely they were going to do me first and i don't know what the reasoning for that was probably they're just like well this is the one who's soft as evidenced by the last 30 seconds i wasn't really that nervous going up there but definitely by the end of it i was like damn that was intense it felt like it took like six hours even though it was probably only like 30 minutes it felt like I was answering a lot of

the same questions like over and over and over um and then at some point I feel like what they're trying to do is reframe something a fifth different way and this time get you to answer it differently and incorrectly so you just kind of like got to try to be on your toes a little bit. Um, I didn't feel a strategy you were prepped for. Of course. Yeah, no, I knew that I wasn't going to handle it as well as you did. Um, because again, I was trying to be way more like robotic and just buy the book and like, I just want to get out of here. Um, be honest, be truthful, but say what I I know say what I don't know and get out of here whereas I knew the only reason I was like bummed to have to go to the bathroom to throw up afterward was because I was like damn I got to get back in there before Dan's up there because

this is going to be fun well and I want to say this I knew that was going to be like a very different approach from the way that I did it now Now, I do think you're soft, but you're referring to yourself as soft and that's self-deprecating. I think you're an emotional person. Yeah, yeah. I think that's one of my detriments is that I'm not. Well, it's not a detriment. It's just everybody's – Well, it's different.

And, yeah, so I don't think that makes you soft or worse in any way either. But you also got emotional on the stand. And if I'm doing my post-game analysis of it, which I am, I would say that kind of didn't hurt our case because you weren't actually not robotic. You were trying to be. I was trying very hard to be. But I think you may have cried on the stand. At least I choked up, yeah. You had some points.

I don't know if it was just the part about your kid or about when they were... When you were talking about your colleagues at the ticket. They were alleging, yeah, that you're doing things actively to hurt those guys that you've sat in the control room with for 10 years, whatever.

That really bothered you. It still bothers me. I think it makes me look like a bad person a lot of times, how I'm unbothered by certain criticisms or the way, you know... But you, like, take that to heart and, like, I don't want Mina or whoever thinking that I would be negative towards, like, or I'm...

Yeah, criticize. I think that's what it was about. They were kind of alleging that we were criticizing the moves that they made. Yeah. When we said we thought we're so happy for everybody that got elevated. The only one thing is we thought Monty, I think Monty is great, and I would have had him as a host. Doesn't mean somebody else can't be even, you know?

Right, or add another host. Fine, do that. We were making enough that I'm sure they could do that. Well, I don't know if you know this, Jake. But I think that helped with even the judge, her opinion of you. This guy is not actively trying to F this station. This guy loves this station.

Whereas she might have thought I was doing bits half and forth, back and forth. Why would that be? Because you were. So you may not know this, Jake, but Frank had that all mapped. Like, Frank knew what he was doing, getting you to, he knew you were going to get choked up. And he warned me about it, but not you, so that you would get choked up. choked up and he warned me about it but not you so that you would get choked up yeah and that that was one thing that um even today i i sort of second guess myself sometimes because i didn't

go over with you or i didn't prepare you for the fact that I was going to ask you a question about your son. That's going to get me. And the reason I did it was because, if you'll remember at the end of your direct examination, they were insinuating that, number one, you could just move somewhere. You could just pick up your family and move. Right. And you're not hurting because you write for D Magazine. Yeah.

Your wife has a job. Yeah, your wife has a job. You'll be fine no matter what happens. Yeah, and you write for D Magazine and make $200 a week on writing an article about a Cowboys game. And that angered me. And that's why I brought up your son. That's, to send the message that you had, you're a person with a family with issues. And that's why I brought it up.

To this day, I still question whether I should have. I think it was good. Well, I think you can pretty clearly tell. Like save that for the trial type thing? It wasn't like that's the only time I've cried in the last X amount of time. So you don't have to feel bad about it. And it's not the only time you've puked. There's a crier and a puker, folks.

Yeah, that's right. I'm not sure that my body's really working all that well. No, and I could tell, actually. You know, because the thing about that was like, man, I hope this judge doesn't know me. Like, I know all you guys knew. Like, boy, he's not, like, faking this. But, you know, I was kind of worried that worried that you know the judge was going to be like what is this this performative yeah and uh so that was a little bit concerning to me but i also i could

tell you know one of their attorneys when when i i did start to like struggle a little bit you know he was like you know we can stop for a minute if he like i don't think he thought that it was performative at all but yeah i mean i think there's anyway anyone viewing that would would question the authenticity but the the downside of it again was that when i walked in there i was already like dan was already like mid-show oh you had left you didn't come back until I was already up there? It was like 10 minutes. Okay. Yeah, but at that point it was – I don't know. I wish we had pictures because I just wish Blake could see. I don't know.

Just Dan on the stand at all is funny enough. It was just so funny to me to walk in there. It was like ill-fitting suit. Ill-fitting suit. Yeah, just – When you – present i mean i know it's the first time you've testified it and i wonder about this like i'm i'm much more like jake in terms of like you know anxiety emotions but he acts how i would think someone that's an individual that hasn't been involved in a lawsuit before would act and i've always been floored by how calm you were throughout every every up and down with everything and so

like are you are you feeling the anxiety or do you not feel the anxiety like you definitely don't show it but are you anxious uh yeah like in my head i was waiting for the zinger i knew they had something i knew it and how am i going to react to that? I just know. They've got it, because I was not impressed with what we thought they had. And I'm like, that can't be it. That can't be it. And again, Phillip, great prep, I guess. I mean, just because

you tried to... You were also trying to think, well, what could they have? What could they do? Is there something I forgot to tell Phillip? Because I don't remember things. And I mean, they've got a piece of audio. They've got something. They've got, you know, there's going to be a zinger. And I was worried.

Yes, I get, you know, I, but I like overprepping. I mean, I overprep for our little stupid show. I print things off. They make fun of me for all the stuff I do. You know, like. I got the sense on Sunday, maybe even late on Saturday on the first prep weekend that you had figured out the game and your kind of whole approach to the thing just changed. Cause I was like, God damn it. He's not going to follow any rules.

He's, I know he thinks he's an expert because he's already figured it. He's figured out this game. And I, I, by the time we got to the actual hearing, I was like, yep, you got to let him freelance because he's got what it takes. Were you afraid he was going to say, you can't handle the truth? We were very close to doing some bits. Yeah, he was restraining himself from doing bits. Yeah. I mean, and you can...

If it is to be said. Restraining himself from doing bits. Yeah. I mean, and you can... If it is to be said. The one, you know, the one thing about Dan's face is that he always appears to be having a slight smirk. He does this, you know? And so it was just a question of if that was going to be like off-putting. But he, I mean, you just did great.

It was so easy. Certainly off-putting to my mom growing up. Yeah, for sure. Wipe that look off of you. Slap that grin off your face. But yeah, that's what, when I walked back in there after the bathroom, and I just saw him up there looking like I've seen him in every meeting we've had with our boss, where he's clearly, clearly not going to listen to anything we're being told.

It had to help what... I was like, damn, okay, I'm back in the game now. It had to help that I went last, too, because I was unimpressed with their side. The worst. Their side's testimony. I saw how it happened, you know, how they tried to hammer Jake or whatever. And I don't know. I just, it felt.

Well, we tried to tell you all. It felt like at that point, it was like, now I get to experience that. It felt like at that point, it was like, now I get to experience that. I'm now, this is a rare occasion that I should try to, you know, while being wary of, what do they got? Sure. They got to have something, but like. You treated it like a theme park. Like, no, I want to now, you know, know what this is like.

And, you know, it was very interesting. I i was involved in an interesting experiment that was very clear you know we tried to tell y'all from the very beginning of this case that this is not the kind of case from cumulus's side where you can hold stuff back and surprise people with it later it's you just can't do it you know when you get the complaint that's everything they could find. And we were holding things back that we could have done, true or used. Although Frank just pulled out the big gun on Jake. Let's just ruin this guy for the next three weeks. Did either of you have a favorite answer that you gave? Vanilla ice. have a favorite answer that you gave vanilla ice yeah i mean i don't know again i couldn't really tell how down for bits that the judge was going to be but it is true that my former manager or

excuse me uh agent that we referenced before was the manager and agent for vanilla ice so when they asked me about what was the context yeah uh they asked me about it... What was the context? They asked me who negotiated my last contract. And they were like, did you have an agent work on that? And they were like, what is his name? And I gave the name and was like... They were like, oh, he's worked in the entertainment industry for some time, correct.

And I said, yes. I believe he actually used to be the agent and manager of Vanilla Ice. Which does indicate that that was a long time ago. I don't think they were. No, but they set it up for you. Yeah, I didn't just. You didn't even know they were going to.

No, I didn't just throw it out there. I think they probably thought I was going to say he's been in the industry for a long time. Yeah. But for me to illustrate that. Right, that time stamps it. Exactly, right? Vanilla Ice was not big like last year.

No, no. And then for Dan, I mean, come on. It's not big like last year. No, no. And then for Dan, I mean, come on. It's on the pillow. Yeah. The geofencing part? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't really, seriously, I got to go back. I say I'm an over-prepper,

and I didn't go back and look at the transcript this morning or anything, but I don't remember what. To me, what was awesome about it was, and you don't have to use their names or anything, but the attorney that was talking to you, I believe actually said, can we strike some of this? He got so flustered by whatever it is that you are

that he was like, I don't even want that out there. Well, he did tell me, I asked the questions here. I know, but he also, at that point, was like, I don't even want that out there. Well, he did tell me, I asked the questions here. I know, but he also, at that point, was like, I... Because I'm also a person that interviews people, and I like to... I know. Yeah, the question you asked him, y'all were going through the geofencing stuff, and you

just refused to believe that that existed. And you said, I don't think that's possible on podcasts. Have you ever seen a podcast do it right well i asked we were going through discussion because i had never heard of it before i was thinking in my head had i been him what i would have done if i could find another person that has done this i could then say to us, yes, this is done. Well, speaking of what your mom wants to slap you for, exactly how it went, if I recall correctly, was he said, have you heard of another podcast doing that before? And then you said, have you ever heard of a podcast doing that before? Would you just rephrase or not rephrase, just say the exact same thing that your mom said

back to you, but put a little bit different emphasis on a different word that's when they really are like i'm going to smack you yeah that's not a good idea sometimes and i feel like in that moment he wanted to the one thing i do remember going back and forth on was um have you ever heard he thought i would nod along and agree with him on certain things. And if you guys remember the term goodwill. Yes. Oh. Philip trained you very well on you listen to the question before you answer.

But logically, I don't know what goodwill is. No one does. I am not someone who really believes in mystical things. And somehow I do kind of feel like karma's. I don't know. I try to spread a little. We'll give an extra dollar tip here or there. And then you think hopefully that comes back to you somehow. I don't know.

That's called buying off guilt. Okay. Is that all that is? That's all that is. Trust me. But, like, as far as, like, goodwill, did the – I can't remember how the phrasing was, like goodwill um did the i can't remember how the phrasing was but it it had something to do with all the goodwill that the ticket gave you i mean by us working at the ticket certainly it's a

big time radio station and stuff but that just if you just start working there all of a sudden now you have all this goodwill because the ticket in general has goodwill and now you have taken away that goodwill um and we're using that to attack the ticket and he's like you would agree that uh you know you've gotten a lot of goodwill from the ticket i think that was kind of how it was phrased i was like no i do not think i would agree with that and that's threw him off like whoa whoa i thought that was just going to be a, of course we could all agree with that. I mean, it's the ticket. And I just kept going back and forth like, well, no.

I mean, define. If he was actually surprised by that, Dan, then that was his first employment law case. I'm not sure, though. I can't remember if I asked him this or was just thinking this in my head. Like, did we ever get a goodwill bonus? It's like Dan and I always talk about.

Let's go down and cash our Goodwill check. Right. At the Goodwill bank and pay our Goodwill mortgage with our Goodwill dollars. Yeah. Just our, you know, you got a lot of good feedback

on Twitter today. Oh, fantastic. Okay, well, let's go to the Goodwill. My engagement check. Good feedback mailbox and see if I could pay a bill with that. So I don't remember if I asked him. No, you did not because if you did, I would have fallen out.

Remembered that one? Yeah, I would have fainted. I would have been laughing so hard. But I might have said we got bonuses based on ratings. Then you brought up Stern. Oh, yeah, Stern. I thought that was a great point. A lot of people hate Stern or whatever,

you're just saying that he just has goodwill because he has great ratings? No. Great ratings don't mean goodwill. Public enemy number one. So where did the pillow quote come from? Was it the goodwill or the geofencing? Geofencing. Okay.

What does the pillow say? You want to read it, Frank? Where is it? Because I think you were asked, did you look into geofencing before you started podcasting? Frank bought us a pillow. And this is the quote, Blake. So, yeah, I guess you were just going on about geofencing.

And you told the lawyer, I did not look into something I had never heard of. Right. It was after I said I'd never heard of it. Then he said, did you look into it? Have you looked into it? Yeah, that's exactly what he did. I literally had never heard of it before he mentioned it that day. He thought it was going to be a good

punctuation of his line of questioning after asking you all these questions about geofencing. He thought it was a good punctuator to say, so you never even looked into it. And your answer was, yeah, I didn't look into something I didn't know existed. Hey, McColl, who's been a big listener and certainly a consultant on this whole thing.

You certainly read the whole transcript. Do you want to give any thoughts on just the hearing in general? Yeah, yeah. I didn't have the wherewithal to go through the whole thing, but I think it's just really great when you're able to answer the questions, but sort of, I don't know. I'm not saying my part in general just anything no no i know but but i mean the part that does stand out is that you know this thing is as serious as a

heart attack and you're able to sort of um be like totally accurate and kind of irreverent at the same time which uh i mean i think is really effective, right? I mean, because I mean, you especially, Dan, have a very effective way of like kind of making fun of the person who's asking stupid questions. And I think that goes a long way in sort of undermining the credibility of their case. So at the end of the case, are we at the end? He only asked that so that he'd get another compliment.

And Jake, you're... end of the case are we at the end he only asked that so that he'd get another compliment and jake you're uh but i don't know what it's worth stop it no no no but i really do have to i mean you know we see business disputes a lot in these cases and i feel like the only time i see people kind of tearing up on the stand is if it's in like family court, right. And if it's like a divorce and I feel like, especially your separation from the company, you know, I mean, like, I know people love to say, oh, well, it's just business or it's not show friends, it's show business. But like, I mean, I am, you know, it's compelling that you would have like an emotional attachment to the people that you've worked with for 15 years. Like, I think that humanizes your your side of it and

frankly I think it's kind of crazy when people don't feel that kind of emotional attachment kind of was like a divorce case for you guys yeah absolutely yeah to the listeners people call these cases business divorces sometimes for exactly this reason. And this is a highly unique situation, you know, highly unique. Yeah. Any other radio station in town or probably many across the nation. Or a construction company or something. But yeah, even this radio station among radio stations is very unique. So at the end, I'm just looking for my notes.

The judge, you know, did come out and say, I'm ready to, I deny the temporary injunction. Okay, which I guess was they wanted to stop us from doing our podcast until the trial. So there's still a trial. But this is, all this was was was just the temporary injunction. This isn't like we now don't have to go to trial. No, there's still a trial on the books, but we'll give particularized finding in the next two weeks. This is what she says.

At this point, I wrote this note. I want to stand up and applaud her like i just felt like i didn't know i don't know what she would say and you know and but it felt like a weight lifted i don't know what you felt like at that point no 100 um and it's kind of like a thing where you feel really really happy like let's say you're with your mom and you and your brother are getting in trouble, but she just starts like, I know it's your fault and it's a bit, but if you start celebrating too much, then you might catch some of it too.

So we all are just like, solemn. We're just like sitting there straight faced. I wanted to hug you all, and I don't hug. I do think we prepped you for this. But I was very, very excited. Did you?

Do not change your face. Did you? I kind of... I always do. No, you probably did, if that's something you generally say. But I don't think you needed to, to stop us from...

Yeah! And then, yes. Then she did kind of say some things like, you know, that we could approach, you know, maybe lawyers should step out of this. And maybe you guys should talk behind their lawyers' backs. I think there's a settlement to be had here. She kind of intimated that she doesn't think this should go to trial, that I think you guys should somehow approach, you know, the behind the scenes. Let's get rid of the lawyers here. Let's get rid of the suits. And yes, she said she would, if we wanted her to,

get involved in settlement talks. And I wrote in parentheses, what does that mean? I did not know what that meant, her getting involved. But I liked it because it did seem that she was pro-Dan and Jake, or at least pro our defense of what they were bringing. I don't know that she liked us in particular, but it did seem like she liked our case from the beginning. And I thought, okay, that's good. She should get involved because she'll really push them to not take this to trial. She liked your legal case.

That's what I mean. She's pro-Adam Romo. Yes. I feel like she, by the end of it, I don't know. I kind of felt like Dan and I were almost like the Blues Brothers. Like, what are we doing here? Like, how did we end up in this place? Like, just standing up looking like two morons? I feel like. But by the end of it, I feel like she was like, all right, at least these guys aren't, like, BSing.

We've run through so much time today. I think we should do a separate thing with Adam Roma at some point in the future. Sure. To honor him. Because I'd like to bring him in, but. Yeah. We've've been sitting around a long time today it's been a very long time and if you're listening to this maybe you already know this is day four of or day three or whatever of we should say this uh how many people are going to unsubscribe during a week of yeah spring break I mean you should just put up a disclaimer at the beginning of like, it's not getting better

for the rest of the week. Just wait until next week if you don't like this first episode. Well, compare it to us just doing nothing. Right? Like compare it to a week off. I know, but it's. It's better than nothing. It's not as much y'all talking as annoying people.

I think people find it interesting. Not as much y'all talking as annoying people. I think people find it interesting. I can't remember if it was me or if it was you, but at the end, the end end, didn't I ask her if she'd take a picture with me? You did. I don't know. She's like, not now, Mr. Kemp. I'm never going to see this person ever again. Right, no.

They obviously had like a top ten most impactful decision in my life. We're dressed up. Yeah. There's never a time. I put my makeup on. This was the last day of the settlement. Yes. Did she take a picture with you?

No. She was like in another setting. No. She was at first. I thought she was going to do it. I know. And then she said, well. It was kind of like Ralph Northam almost hitting the, what is it? The moonwalk. The moonwalk whenever he got accused of doing blackface.

He's like, oh, wait a minute, no. So she said she's going to give a detailed description. So now I think that was – I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to give my opinion because I give my opinion on everything. going to give my opinion, because I give my opinion on everything, that she was saying to them, do you want all this, my real thoughts, public? Or do you all want to come to a settlement? That is what she was saying. That is. Because here's a couple of guys who have been wanting a settlement.

I think that's why she said two weeks. Here are a couple of guys who have been wanting a settlement the whole time. The fact that we don't have a settlement, she's only surmising this must not be because of these two guys. So, you know, they didn't want to force this hearing the hearing what took place it did go as poorly for you as i thought they thought it would so now i can put all my thoughts in writing or you guys can come to a settlement and none of these thoughts will ever get out and there will be no official winner or loser because it was a settlement. And everybody can come to their own conclusion

on who won or who lost, but all I know is we were doing something, we got sued for doing it, told to stop, and then we had a settlement that concluded we could do that exact same thing. So that's just my view of the whole thing. And nobody won and nobody lost. What did Dan and Jake earn in the settlement?

Well, we find out in the next episode, as well as answer a question or two from our listeners, as well as update you on where the case is now. Yes, it's not 100% over, as there still is a case in front of the National Labor and Relations Board that still has a chance to make history the National Labor and Relations Board that still has a chance to make history. Plenty more to get to as we wrap up Kemp et al. versus Susquehanna. Again, the next episode is not free and will not be available wherever you get your podcast.

Please go to patreon.com slash the dumb zone and sign up to receive full access to our Lawyer's Roundtable miniseries that concludes tomorrow. Adios, mofo.