The Duran Podcast - $18M Mar-a-Lago. New York judge finds Trump liable for fraud

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

$18M Mar-a-Lago. New York judge finds Trump liable for fraud

All right, Alexander, let's discuss the Trump legal case in New York, where he has been found guilty in New York for his asset valuations. All right. Well, where did we get? I guess putting it very simply, they're saying that he committed fraud to the banks by overvaluating. his assets and thus received loans on overvalued properties. I've never heard of a bank in my life that has not done its due diligence or is not contracted somewhere that doesn't have partners to do due diligence on businesses or high net worth individuals before they enter into some sort of a loan or cooperation with that person. But what are your thoughts on this? Well, can I just say,

I have been involved in this kind of thing, and I find this one of the oldest cases, one of the most bizarre cases I've ever encountered. First of all, it's important to say that Trump has repaid all the loans that we're talking about. So it's not as if any of the banks which we're talking about have been actually have lost any money on any of this. As far as I also understand it, the complaints didn't actually come from the banks themselves. thirdly, the judge is placing as far as I can understand all of Trump's assets in New York into receivership. Now, receivership, as far as I'm aware, this is the case in Britain, happens when someone is bankrupt or business is insolvent. How can we talk about insolvency or bankruptcy in a situation where all the loans have been repaid? I mean, again, it doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

I mean, it seems to me most bizarre. But the thing that is most bizarre of all is that the judge says that Trump inflated the value of his properties and perhaps on a sliding scale, he was generous in his estimate of some of the valuations of his properties, which isn't unusual if everybody who did that kind of thing. were charged with fraud. Well, an awful lot of people who own properties and who sought loans might find themselves, you know, in prison or worse. But anyway, having said that about Trump, on the one property which one can talk about with some degree of confidence, which is Mar-a-Lago, the judge has given a valuation which is far lower than,

you know, the overvaluation that he's accusing him alleging against Trump. Now, you know, I've seen many pictures of Mara Lago. This is a huge, massive property. It's on the beachfront in Florida. It's built in this ornate, you know, style like a castle. It's, you know, one of these tremendous buildings that the United States, that rich people in the United States used to build, you know, been the interwar years and the sort of gilded age and all that.

So this is clearly a very big, very elaborate, very expensive property. And I would have thought, and I'm, you know, I had some experience of a state, I mean, I work for estate agents, so I know what I'm talking about again. I would have said that, you know, with contemporary prices, this is at least a property that's in the hundreds of millions. The judge says it's worth 18 million. Now, this is on a scale that somebody came up with that, you know, it's between 18 and 27. So, of course, notice the judge goes to the absolutely lowest figure, which is 18 million.

Well, some people I have spoken to and some people who have been writing to me suggest that, you know, 180 to 250 million might be a more appropriate price. and one person has actually sent me an article by Forbes. Forbes, not friends of Trumps, you would have thought. And they apparently valued it at around 200 to 250 million, which is much closer to the exaggerated valuation that Trump is supposed to have given it. And apparently, Trump estimated it at about 700 million, and there are some people who think you might actually justify that as well.

Bear in mind now, this property has been owned by Donald Trump. It was owned by the former president of the United States. It has functioned as a kind of summer White House. To some people, maybe, that would also add value. So, I mean, the whole thing, the whole case seems to me most strange. Let me put it like that. I'm being, you know, very careful in my choice of words. But I cannot believe it will survive on appeal.

I mean, the whole logic of this seems to me so bizarre, so all over the place. And I gather that, you know, the case was rushed through. There was certainly there was no jury as far as I can see. Well, maybe you don't need for juries of this kind of case in the United States. You don't need juries for this kind of case in Britain. I'm not complaining about that. But it seems a most whimsical decision by the judge. And Donald Trump and his supporters are going to say that it's a politically motivated case.

And given the weirdness of the judgment, I can't see that it's, I can't see how one can argue back at that. I mean, the judge was so obviously unfriendly, so obviously hostile to Trump. that, I mean, this is a decision that surely won't survive on a field and surely political bias has played a role. Yeah, that's the problem with this lawfare that's being waged against Trump is that the Democrats and the deep state, okay, they don't want Trump to be president. I think everyone understands that now. But I mean, they're not even trying to cover it up well.

No. You know, you have a property that's obviously on the beach, it's huge, it's beautiful. Obviously, it's not going to be worth, would they say, 18 million? No. Obviously, it's going to be worth 100, 150, 200 million. I mean, that's clear to anybody with eyes. Anybody. Maybe more than that.

I mean, you know, 700 million seems to me a stretch. But, you know, for 400 million, I wouldn't, if it was going for 400 million, I would not be surprised. Can I just say, you know, with big properties. You know, I worked in this area. And one of my friends is a high-end estate agent. I mean, you look at estate agents and estate agent in particular. If you go to South Abyss, for example, then they have a whole international estate agency side.

They will often, they will often make, you know, offer properties for big properties like this, for astronomically high prices. I've seen properties, you know, put out for 300 million or whatever. And then gradually, over time, you gradually start to dial it down until you finally reach a price where people bite. That's absolutely standard. You could have suggested that Southerbys or Christie's or big high-value estate agents who start, you know, high and then go down low, are defrauding people. Well, that's nonsense. That's absurd. That's ludicrous. That's not how it works.

I mean, it shows, as I said, a very strange approach to the world of valuation. For one thing, as you absolutely rightly say, just as buyers will make their own assessments and will get their own professional people to value properties, banks, of course do. and the figure the judge gave in this case 80 million is manifestly absurd. Anybody with any knowledge of property markets and international high-end property values can see that it is. Yeah, but that's my point on all of this is at least try to make it look like you're being fair and objective and impartial. they're not even like trying to make it look like this is this this case against trump is legitimate you know make make make the value the property at 120 you know okay so then you can say well

you know we valued it at 120 so but 18 I mean this is a joke I mean people are joking about this on Twitter on on X they're saying if this is worth this much money I'll I'll put a bit for this property. I'll buy it tomorrow. I mean, you have people saying that and they're right. I mean, you know, this is, borrow, borrow the 80 million, buy it and sell it for 400 the following day. It probably could. It might actually work. I think the valuation was what? 18, wasn't it? 18, 18, 18. That they played. One eight. One eight. One eight. Yes. why this is my question yeah why are they making it so look so so so fraudulent i mean they are making it look like this is a scam that's what the yeah and i'm talking about the democrats yeah they're making

it look like they're being vindictive and going after trump by by not even trying to cover this up well i mean they're deliberately not trying to cover this up well no i mean why that doesn't make any sense to me no it doesn't make much sense and as you're absolutely rightly said it isn't ultimately particularly clever I suspect the problem fundamentally is that if you started to try to pitch this at more realistic valuations

then it would be very very difficult to sustain any allegation of fraud I mean that to put it mildly I mean remember I mean you put the value of your property at one level The other side puts it at a different level. There's arguments about valuations. I mean, I've seen it happen, as I said, many, many times.

He can work out in a complicated way over a long time. But if you start saying, well, this property is only worth $200 million, and Trump put it at higher than that, but then he's borrowed the money and then paid back the loan of the bank says, well, you know, we knew it was worth several hundred million, perhaps not quite as much as Trump said. Then it becomes difficult to see. sustain this. So that's the problem. If you don't actually have a case, you don't have a case,

then trying to construct, to craft an argument which might look as if you did have a case, actually is surprisingly difficult. And the temptation to just go for broke and come up with absurd and non-zensical figures becomes extremely strong. And I suspect the calculation. is that the appeal process is going to take a very long time. You keep Trump tied down in legal matters. You make it more difficult for him to raise money in New York. Remember, he needs money for his election. So, you know, you engage in, this is more an exercise in harassment

than ultimately in trying to win this legal battle. That's the best explanation I can give. Yeah. Yeah, they just look. to make his life difficult. That's basically their goal. And I think there's also an element where this entire affair is being targeted from a media perspective at the significant percentage of the U.S. population that is infected with Trump derangement syndrome.

Oh, absolutely. So for them, you know, 18 million, they're going to be like, well, you see, it's worth 18 million. and he said it was valued at hundreds of million. You see he's a fraud. And they're not going to even take five seconds to sit down and think, is this property really owe me 18 million? Something's not right here. Nope.

They're just going to accept it. And they're going to say, Orange Man, bad. And it's just going to create more hate and outrage and anger towards Trump, towards MAGA, and then towards, you know, that whole segment of the population. that's supportive of Trump. Well, that's an extremely good point. Of course, the vast majority of people have not worked, as I have done, with high-end estate agents. So, you know, for them, it is very difficult to imagine that some properties can be valued in the hundreds of millions,

because that's not the world that they experience. So for them, 18 million sounds like an awful lot of money. And, of course, it's easy for them to be told, well, this property is only worth 18 million. Trump is a phony and that he's not worth anywhere near as much as he pretends he is. This has been said about Trump many, many times, by the way, that he's not really the billionaire that he pretends that he is. And, you know, that this all plays to that. And they won't go beyond that. They won't go off and do the kind of work that I've done or check things out in the way that I have.

or listen to arguments that make the obvious points, obvious to estate agents, obvious to values, obvious to lawyers, obvious to lawyers, by the way, but not perhaps to, you know, people who are motivated to think badly of Donald Trump anyway. And there are a lot of people like that in the United States. Yeah, they just hear the numbers, they read the headline and they say, you see, he's a fraud. He's not really worth that much money. his properties are overvalued, you know, 18 million, and he was saying it's worth hundreds, so orange man bad. That's who it's playing into, but it's also, I think all of this stuff that's going on is also about the Republican candidates who are waiting for something bad to happen to Trump.

So we've had a couple of debates now, GOP debates. You pretty much have the same characters hanging around. I don't think anyone's really dropped out. Haley and Christie and hence. I mean, you know, what are these people doing? Trump is, Trump is ahead by 43, 45 points in the latest poll, maybe even more than that. But you can see that they're all hanging around and they're hanging around waiting. They're waiting. Come on. Something happened to Trump. Put them in prison. Knock them out of the election, the primary race. That's why they're sticking around and it looks pathetic.

But there they are. There they are at the debates, which no one is really watching. No one's really paying attention. But this is the state of things now. Well, this is exactly what it is. I mean, that's exactly what they're doing. They're hanging on because they're waiting and they're hoping that something will happen that will remove Trump from the scene and that they can start to fill,

you know, fill the vacant place. I think that what makes this particularly ludicrous is, of course, if this does actually happen, if, you know, if Trump is removed from the scene and let's guess that, say, Mike Pence becomes the Republican nominee, I think it's most unlikely he'd win the presidency, I mean, to be straightforward about this. But it's not any longer. I think they're betting on Nikki Haley. Or Nikki Haley or whoever. But I think it's most of it.

You're probably right, but, you know, I'm not, I mean, I'm not actually following that battle in any great detail. But, you know, assuming that, you know, they get their way, it's no longer about winning the election in 2024. That's not what the rhino tendency is about at all. It's about maintaining control of the Republican Party. That is their priority. That's become absolutely clear to me. That's why people like Mitch McConnell, for example, have taken this very strong line on support for Ukraine. They're doing it in part because they know that Donald Trump and the populist wing of the party are opposed to it.

So there's a battle underway within the Republican Party for control of the Republican Party. And winning the federal elections, the national elections, is less important than control of the party itself. And it's not difficult to understand why, because of course with control of the party, huge opportunities for patronage open up. You get control of state legislatures, you get a position in Congress, you get all sorts of things become possible for you, which if you lose control of the party, you lose only any chance of that. I mean, who would be interested in Mitch McConnell if he wasn't in control of the donor base

and was able to, you know, shuffle funds and didn't have all that tremendous patronage at his disposal that he has. So this is what it's all about at the end of the day. So notice that they're all very critical of Trump. They don't really come to his support when these judgments come out. Because deep down, what they want him to do

is to step aside or hopefully, you know, not just drop out of the race, but drop out of politics and perhaps go to the prison somewhere or be discredited in some way. And then they can go back to the normal business of politics as they understand it, which is politics as it existed before he came down that escalator in Trump Tower back in 2015. Was it a lift? I can never remember.

2015, yeah. That's why they're really pulling for Haley and they're pulling for pets. The two war mongers of the entire bunch. I mean, those two are all about the military industrial complex and war and escalating in Ukraine and escalating with China. And for people like McConnell, it's music to his ears, people like Lindsey Graham. That's exactly what they want to hear from a candidate. Their dream scenario, the Uniparties, dream scenario, I'm convinced, is Nikki Haley versus Gavin Newsom. Yeah. I think that's the dream scenario.

So if the Democrats can find a way to maneuver Biden, be rid of Kamala Harris, and get Gavin Newsom in, they're happy. If the Republicans can find a way to get rid of Trump and maneuver Nikki Haley or possibly Mike Pence, but they really want Nikki Haley. Get Nikki Haley in, they'll be super happy. Haley versus Newsom, the Uniparty wins. Whoever wins the election, who cares. The UNIP Party comes out ahead.

That's exactly correct. Can I tell you, I mean, that brings us, of course, directly to the situation with the Democrats, because, of course, the Democrats are having problems on their side. We've had the impeachment inquiry, which is now underway. But, of course, there's also now increasing criticisms. They're appearing very often now, by the way, in the British media, the Times, the London Times, the Daily Telegraph, article after article. now and this is a drumbeat and bear in mind Britain has been very supportive of Biden up to this

point but the Daily Telegraph especially very close to the British government very close to British Britain's permanent government they're saying that Biden needs to stand down that he's obviously he doesn't look like a convincing candidate in 2024 he's too old he's too unwell he's getting, loses his way all the time when he's in his speeches, his press conference in Hanoi was a disaster, he stated the Union address not he's not only stated the Union, he's addressed to the United Nations General Assembly

was a shambles, it was completely unconvincing he's made more gaffs since then he's fallen down the stairs, I understand once more, that this is cruel to him and it creates serious risks in the 2024 election that if horror of horrors Donald Trump is the Republican nominee despite all the things that you're talking about then Biden might have real difficulty winning against Trump

and one particular telegraph article went even further and they said what happens if you nominate Biden and then something he becomes ill or he becomes incapacitated or heaven help us you know fate finally catches up with him and he has to leave life you know through natural causes midway through the election has anybody in the Democratic Party thought about that possibility what happens then and of course they say you know there's a There's problems, you know, with that scenario. It's a real risk.

And you've only got a few weeks now to try to persuade Biden, the old man, that he isn't really the right person to fight a difficult and complicated election next year. It's time he agreed to step aside and allow someone else to take his place. And of course they do admit, because in Britain we follow American politics very closely. They're just as there's a Biden problem. There's also a Kamala Harris problem. And they say there might be difficult to find ways of getting her to step aside to. But they say that this is something that needs to be done fast.

And this is coming out of Britain. As I said, one article after the other, one of those articles written by no less a person than William Hague, who is, of course, former leader of the Conservative Party and former British Foreign Secretary. Anyway, that's the issue. Getting rid of Biden is not the hard part. How do you get rid of Kamala Harris? I think that's the tough part.

Yeah, it's a very complicated. She doesn't want to go. And just to give an idea of how sophisticated the British are and how closely they're following the elections in the United States. I mean, a point, one of the articles made the point, trying to leverage Kamala Harris out of, you know, prevent her standing, put pressure on her when she doesn't want to go. I mean, that could affect part of, that could alienate part of the Democrats' most loyal voting base,

which is, you know, women and black people. So, you know, you don't want to do that. So, you know, they're saying that this is going to be a really, challenging thing. But one way or another, if there is a real risk that Donald Trump will be the Republican candidate, then it has to be done and it has to be done soon. And they're coming up with all the usual elaborate suggestions that Biden nominates Kamala Harris to a Supreme Court seat. I didn't know that there was a vacancy there, by the way, but anyway, that's what they're saying. And, you know, gets her out, gets her to step aside and somebody like Newsom is appointed in her place.

And in fact, the British have also been talking a lot about Newsom recently. He's pretty much campaigning out of the open. He says he's not campaigning, but he's campaigning. Well, clear. He's traveling all around the United States. Well, clearly. Yes. I mean, I think he's got in the word from high above.

You're going to be the guy. Just sit tight. We'll figure out a way to, to, to, to deal with this Kamala Harris problem. Yes. I think when they're under a lot of pressure, because time is running out, they'll figure out a way. They'll figure out a way.

They'll figure out a way. Yeah, I agree with that. I will also say something else, which is, of course, if it is Donald Trump, who is the Republican candidate, then in spite of all the problems, the British talking about, you know, alienating the Democratic Party's,

part of the Democratic Party's most loyal, electoral base. I suspect that these people are the people who are most antagonistic to Donald Trump, and they would still come out and vote for Newsom in order to prevent Trump winning. So I think that's, you know, something that's probably likely to happen. Well, they'll have the media writing it to fear. Absolutely. Correct. Absolutely correct. Absolutely correct. Yeah. No doubt about that. Yeah. And if they have to, Kamala Harris. will endorse Newsom if we come to that.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I think no doubt about it. Yes. All right. We'll end it there. The durand.locals.com. We are on Rumble Odyssey, bitch, shoot, telegram, rockfin, and X, and go to the Duran shop, 10% off. Use the code. Good day.

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