The Duran Podcast - China Belt and Road influence and Middle East policy

Episode Date: October 21, 2023

China Belt and Road influence and Middle East policy

All right, Alexander, let's talk about what is going on in the world and China's role in everything that is happening from the One Belt One Road Summit to what's going on in the Middle East. And maybe we also want to talk about Putin meeting with Xi Jinping. And if we have time, we could even talk about Ukraine. if we have some time and with us to unpack everything that is happening in the world and China's role in everything that is happening in the world. We have a special guest, Sophia Midkiff, Sophia. Welcome to our channel. Thank you very much for joining us.

And before we get started and I pass it off to Alexander, are there any social media or video platform channels that you would like to let our audience know about where they can follow you? I have a simple channel called a smart town voice that I put content there from time to time. I will try to put some more content there. But yeah, that's a place you can find me, yes. Okay, great. Now we'll have all those links where you can find Sophia in the description box as well as a pinned comment down below.

Alexander, let's talk about the news and let's talk about China's role. in the news. Indeed, let us indeed talk about the news and we're very fortunate to have Sophia with us because Sophia obviously is from China. As I understand it, you live in the West at the moment. You are very active on Chinese social media. So you have your finger on the pulse of Chinese opinion, public opinion, what people in China are saying about things. And contrary contrary to what many people imagine about China, Chinese social media, from my understanding, is a very active place.

It's a very outspoken place. You get all kinds of very strong opinions and comments expressed there. It's a very good way of getting a sense of the sort of pulse of feeling and thinking in China. And at the same time, Sofia is able to guide us through the intricacies of Chinese politics and what's going on in China. As she's often pointed out, for Westerners, China is not always an easy country to understand, which is unsurprising. It's the biggest country in the world, I think, just still,

maybe India's catching up in terms of population. It is the oldest country in the world by far. It has one of the oldest continuous histories, and of course it is not. Now, by some calculations, the world's biggest economy, by other calculations the United States still is, but it has become a major economic power. And today, as we are speaking, Beijing is the diplomatic capital of the world, because we have a tremendous crisis in the Middle East. and a lot of the key players, including Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, are currently in Beijing where they're meeting Xi Jinping. So let's begin, Sofia, because of course, let's begin with the Middle East. And I think most of our program today is going to be about the Middle East,

because this is the big, enormous crisis. Now, until very recently, when things like this happened in the Middle East, there was only one side that matters, one view that mattered, which was the American view. The United States was far and away the most important country. It had all the contacts. It had good contacts with Israel, good contacts with Saudi Arabia, good contacts with Egypt. It was the mediator. It was the place everybody looked to for solutions.

Now, China is beginning to assert itself. It's broken the rapprochement. between Iran and Saudi Arabia. It's got very good relations with both of these countries. It's also, we've seen that the Chinese have recently hosted President Bashar al-Assad of Syria. China is now becoming an important player in the Middle East. So, perhaps the best place to start, because as I say, you keep your finger on the pulse of Chinese public opinion.

What is Chinese social media telling us about the feelings of most Chinese people about the current crisis? Okay. The latest is what I just read that because there's a Belt and Node initiative, the media is going on. So there are some people on social media speculating. People who are pretty well-established, you know, commentators are speculating whether they are going to put forward some kind of statement, a declaration of some kind, from Belt and Road Initiative countries.

They are over 140 countries, my understanding, have representatives there. Now, both Putin and some other top leaders are all there right now, in particular Putin himself, right? Putin and Xi Jinping certainly are working overtime about this. So there are also some argument against the declaration, some kind of statement,

officially from the Belt Road Initiative because Belter Road Initiative basically is United Nations minus the collective west right now, I mean more or less and so that would be very significant if they put forward a statement but there is argument against it

because if the statement came out and really angered, for example, Biden, it could also counterproductive Biden might be really angry and just allow whatever Nata Yon wants to do. So I'm sure both Biden and me both Xi Jinping and Putin are working trying to balance all this. You see, Xi Jinping and Putin, they are not like Biden.

They don't think like, okay, I hate you, so I want to embarrass you. They don't think in that terms. What they think is, okay, here is a problem. There is a problem is that the Gaza has a humanitarian crisis that is deteriorating by the minute. So what do we do, right? if a statement just happened because of Belknode interoper having a meeting will help, then they will put forward a statement. If it doesn't, if it can probably counterproductive, if their judgment is that could be risky,

then they won't. I just think it's very interesting. So we'll see if they will put it forward to something. So far, the Chinese, the government media has been just mainly talking about trade, about meetings, you know, with the different leaders, it's all about trade. But they are also floating some social media that speculating whether they're going to say something about the current event in Middle East. So that's that, the latest. Now, the Chinese view, they're from the government.

In June this year, Xi Jinping met Abbas, Mohammed al-Abaz from a Palestinian president. And in their joint statement, it's actually said that China and the Palestine has established a strategic partnership. That is in June this year. And I don't think China has a strategic partnership with Israel. So just there, you can tell that there is a difference, you know. And then when this thing happened, when Hamas attacked, took some hostage, and when that whole thing exploded, I think shortly after Wang Yi invited all the diplomats, all the embassy, I think ambassadors from the Middle East countries that had a serious conversation. And that followed with the Chinese Foreign Minister's spokesperson.

Hua Chun Ying, she actually on her Twitter account, she said this. She said the Chinese people provided the shelters to 20,000 Jewish refugees in Shanghai during World War II. We believe in do undo others as you would have them to do unto you. Tragedies of the past should not happen to anyone today. Every life is precious regardless of his or her faith or ethnicity. So you see, and then that followed with Wang Yi also had made a statement during the joint press release press conference with Barel, Joseph Borel, right? He just happened to also visit China.

So people were asking him about this. And then I think Alex, you used that statement, which was pretty firm support. Now, it doesn't to single out Hamas and say, okay, we condemn that. What condemned is, of course, all the loss of innocent lives. But it seems very clear. Wangian's statement is also very clear that the Palestinians deserve its own state. And that has been always the Chinese official state. I mean, their position, which is a Tuesday solution using 1967's the drawing of the map.

That's the Chinese official position, and it has always been. And I would say that this time I think the statement, both the foreign minister, you know, her Twitter account, X account, and also Wangi statement, I think is pretty firm. Chinese government in general are pretty measured. And so when they clearly showing that they are supporting the Palestinian, that I think that's almost a little bit unusual to me. So that is the government side of it. There is also intellectuals that there are think tankers in China as well.

One of them, a leading think tanker, his name is Shen Yi. And he also made a program. That one is actually on YouTube. And I'm working to translate a part of it. It's a very good summary of the sentiment from the intellectuals in China. What he said was very interesting. Just so give you an idea, he was citing a famous author. His name is Lu Xun, people who know the recent history of China,

you probably heard this person. Lu Xun is, he was living during the time at the end of the 20th century and then the beginning of the 21st century. the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century that's the time when China was very weak and Lu Xun was writing about something at the time a student was killed during a demonstration by back then the government of China

now the student was protesting about the government being too weak towards the Western power and then she was killed in the process and so Lu Xen was writing something about that and then this think-techer He's also a professor and he wrote he was using part of that article to describe his feeling toward this. And here is what he says from that book, you know, from that article. And he says, if China will not be destroyed, past history has taught us that future events will come as a huge surprise to the massacre. This is not the end, this is the beginning. Lines written

in ink can never conceal truth written in blood. Debt must be repaid in full. The longer it drags out, the greater the interest will be paid. Just to give you an idea, right, that how, you know, this intellectual is feeling. In particular, the sentence, it's a very famous sentence that lies written in ink and never can conceal truth written in blood. Right. So that, that was all, you know, his whole, like, whole program, like it can summarize in that one sentence. In general, I think the intellectuals, and the larger, to larger part, also lots of the Chinese people feel like the whole establishment of Israel is problematic, right? It started with the British of this Belford Declaration,

which at the time, the Britain doesn't even control the Palestine area, right, that that area. It was, I think, still under Ottoman Empire, but it's like I promise you something that is not even mine, but I promise that I'm going to give it to you. So that itself, I think, from Belford Declaration, there's problem. And also the UN resolution, 1801, it's a, it's a UN resolution, but all the Arab countries voted against it. And even the UK, I think, was abstained in that vote. Plus, it's against the UN, it's against UN's own charter, because in the UN Charter, it says people have the right for self-determination. Self-determination is very important in China.

And so in this case, UN artificially draw some kind of a map and forced upon the people who are living in Palestine. That, I think, doesn't go very well in China as well, considering China's own history, right? China is very much like talking about being the victim of all those unequal treaties. But those equal treaties, at least China, know the teen 90s, they at least signed it, right? In this case, the people living in Palestine, they were not consulted.

They were not, you know, they were not involved. It was just to draw a map and then forced upon them. So that was just another aspect that lots of people just don't feel like this is a fair resolution, even, you know, even though it's a UN resolution. So you see the documents that, the legal documents that established Israel as a state, a lot of people just simply don't buy it. Now, they don't have anything against Israel as a state, but they very much questioning the whole process,

and they see it as another just a disaster, a huge mass created by the colonial power. That's how they see this whole thing. And then in this Mr. Shen Yi's program, he also mentioned the two things which I find interesting. He mentioned one is this art. of the Titus and the other is the Brandenburg Gate. In both incidents that you see them putting the Israeli map,

it's really flag on them, okay, and he was just saying, okay, you need to know the history of both incidents. They are not a particular good symbol to representing Israel, right? And he gave some history about that. And he said, and not only that, they, it's so cheap, because just a few days ago, it was a Ukrainian flag there. And he was saying that this is cheap and frivolous. And that is the attitude the West can have in general,

very cheap, very frivolous kind of attitude towards whole thing. And he think that is the reason that is there is no solution, that because the West just never take this seriously, never put in real effort to make, you know, to find a solution. Just all this, okay, today is this flag, tomorrow is another flag, those kind of thing, he just totally dismissed that, which I find interesting. And then, so I'll do parts of the translation for that and post it on my web, on my channel. So you can see it's a good program.

And then in terms of the internet, the general public, it's all over the place. It's just, like you said, very active and very interesting. I just give you a few examples. one thing people bring up, I mean Chinese people like to talk about history. Okay, so there are lots of people bring up the best, the past, what happened in the past? Show you their attitude towards this whole thing. One thing people talk about is this pufferfish plant. I don't know if you know what that is.

It's a puffer fish is a poisonous fish, right? And that's, it's very delicious. The Japanese like to eat them. So supposedly what happened was during the World War II when Japan was occupying Manchura. It was working with some Zionists approached the Japanese and said, ask if it's possible that they support Japan. In return, Japan will give them some land to establish a two state. And that was called a pufferfish plan. The Japanese used the word puffer fish. Why do they use the puffer fish? Because in Japan's view that those Zionists,

they are very coming, very foxy, you know, you should be careful. You should know what you do. just like you're handling the puffer fish. If you're not careful, you can be poisoned. So that tells you their attitude towards this thing. But in any event, it didn't go through. In the end, it didn't work. I don't think the Zionists who would negotiate with Japan truly believe what Japan will eventually give them a land.

And from Japan's view, I don't think they never truly meant that. They just want the money from the Zionists from the Jewish community to help them to fight the war. I don't think they have any intention to give them the land. whatsoever. But anyway, so that was happened. Even though it didn't go through, it didn't really happen. The mere fact that there's some, you know, Zionist that was working with the Japanese during World War II, you can understand how people feel about that. And then 2006, I think there is also an incident in Lebanon somewhere. There was a bomb by the Israelis that they bombed in some UN facilities, and one of the victims, there were four people were killed in that bomb. One of

that means the Chinese. And in the beginning, the Israelis forces saying, oh, that has nothing to do with us. It was the hospital. Okay. And then later proves that that's not true. It is the Israeli did that. And they never apologized for that.

You see it. So that's something that people brought up. And then as later this year in, I think June, is some former Israeli high official, a leader team went to Taiwan. And this is a military guy who obviously was trying to train the Taiwan military or something. So you can feel, you know how that goes with China, right?

Just this year that they're trying to help train people in Taiwan. So these are the things that I just saw recently, just the past few days and what's going on in the media that they're discussing this whole thing, not just the right and wrong in what's it going out right now. But also the people bring up the history between Israel and China. kind of thing. So I think all these are just what's going out. These are before this bomb in the hospital. Okay? And so far. So lots going on. So we've got the government making its particular moves. We have the government making its positions fairly clear that it wants a Palestinian state to be established.

And it sees that as a solution. And by the way, we have the intellectuals who are seeing this as a product of imperial. of British, specifically British imperialism and colonialism. And of course, as the Chinese so often do, in my experience, when you are talking with Chinese people, they bring up these literary illusions. It is the most literary-minded nation that I know of. So they bring up the Li Shus book and this. And we also say that, the Chinese public, and I think this is the general sense I'm getting, the Chinese public is actually quite roused up by these events, but it is leaning more towards supporting the Palestinians than the Israelis. Is that my correct understanding of the situation?

Yes, very much so. I mean, there are people who are on Israeli side, but even those people who are defending Israel, they don't directly say they're defending. Israel. See, one thing I saw some people are saying, oh, you cannot support Hamas. You know, Hamas, you know, if you eat pork, they're going to be heavy. You know, that's their defense of the, you know, kind of like a defense of Israel. The other thing I also want to say, one thing interesting I find is both the Israeli embassy and the Iranian embassy are pretty active in the Chinese social media.

So on Weibo, which is the Chinese Twitter, is really an embassy. And actually posted something in the very beginning, immediately, whoa, you know, what happened. They put out the saying one of the houses is a Chinese. And her name is Noah. And then they said, oh, she was born in Beijing. Clearly, they're trying to get the public on their side. But then the netizens in China were active. They dig out everything and saying, well, both her mother and Noah and the whole family, they are Israeli citizens, which has nothing to do with China. So China is not obligated to get involved, to get her. And to make things worse, Noah's mother came out and

she said, oh, you Chinese, you're supposed to help me. I mean, she already divided herself, you know, take herself out of China and saying, you Chinese just simply should help me. And that didn't go very well with the netizens either. And then, of course, Israel just put all kinds of pictures, et cetera. And then the Iranian embassy was put out of pictures, etc. And then the Iranian embassy was put out of pictures, et cetera, et cetera. You see there's a war going on online, trying to get the public opinion in China to be on their side. That's something I find interesting. Yes. Now, China has itself been the target in the past of terrorism and Islamist terrorism. So, I mean, does that play any role in forming Chinese perceptions of this? Because, I mean, they see what has happened with Hamas.

Does that affect attitudes towards this conflict that, you know, Israel is the target, the victim of terrorism, Islam is terrorism, China is, and that creates a kind of connection between China and Israel. Has anybody made that point in China? Not much. I think mainly because if you're referring to what happened in 2013 in Xinjiang, right, there were Islamic terrorists, yes. But what people more angry is the West does not truthfully reporting about that.

It's like when you have something, okay, 9-11 or whatever, and you say, oh, there's Islamic extremist and whatever. But when the same thing happened in China, you don't even tell the truth. You're saying that it's Chinese governments, you know, did this wrong, did that wrong. You don't even tell the story the same way when this happened to you. So that's, I think, more of a sentiment in terms of the Islamic extremist. In fact, I think the way the Chinese handle it is probably better than what the West is doing. They have this, the West's called concentration camp, it's not a concentration camp, some kind of schooling. Get those people in there to actually, among other things, read the correct.

Okay, so you don't just read one sentence, which those extremist organization will give you, right? they want those people who actually do read the Korean, and then also some skills, some training, so that those people do not like a workplace, you know, unemployed and et cetera. So those are real training schools, and it seems working, right? So if anything, I think the Chinese probably handled better. You know, is it better just a bomb the whole Xinjiang area? That would be probably the West approach, you know, so when something like that happened. So that's, I think

right now, in terms of what's going on in Gaza right now, I don't see much people, you know, bring that up. Okay, so let's focus on the diplomatic action that the Chinese government is taking. Now, Wang Yi had a telephone call with Blinken

and I've read the readout, the Chinese readout, and it was pretty strong. I, by the way, get the sense that Blinken and Wang Yi don't find it particularly easy to work with each other. I mean, that's my own impression that there is, shall we say,

a lack of understanding between the two. But there's also, as I understand it, a Chinese representative. China has appointed a Middle East representative. And this person is actually going to the Middle East. Do you think he will be visiting all of the countries? Do you think he'll be visiting Israel? I think he must visit Israel, right? That's where if China truly want to stop him to stop, at least for now, you know, at least a ceasefire of some kind.

He must have talked to the Israeli government. I mean, China and Israel, even though, like I said, not necessarily, always have the best and easiest relationship. But by and large, I think I have a decent relationship. You know, so Israel, there are some Chinese investment and then vice versa, et cetera, and there are some technology collaborations, et cetera. So I think I would say that the envoy would definitely be in the Soviet government. So what is China's immediate concern in this conflict? I mean, do they want to bring it, I mean, do they want to bring it to an end?

Is it to achieve a ceasefire and humanitarian relief? Or are they thinking of something beyond that? I mean, you talked about the fact that they see the problem very much about having been created by the Western powers, by Britain specifically, drawing lines on maps, UN resolutions back in the 40s, didn't really consult the local people. Do the Chinese want to work towards some kind of larger solution for the situation in the Middle East, a sort of peace solution for the Middle East? Absolutely.

I mean, since China's official position is a two-state solution, 1967 map. So China would want to see that it got accepted by all parties. and then establish that one. And Jerusalem probably would be tricky. The UN probably should come in and control it or something. That's ultimately how this problem can be solved in the Chinese government's view. Right now, I think the government, the Chinese government, mainly want to see a ceasefire. They even, together with Russia, put forward a proposal, which got rejected in the United Nations, right?

What's in there was actually pretty, to me, is very very very important. to me, it's very reasonable immediately cease fire, restore water and electricity, you know, to the Gaza area, and start a negotiation, you know, something like that, pretty straightforward, very simple, I think, you know, basic request, but that got rejected by United States and Japan and France and the U.K., you know, the usual suspect. And so I don't know, this envoy probably trying to talk Israel into some senses. I don't know. I think one thing probably a little bit of surprising to everybody is actually the Western mainstream narrative.

They seem to start shifting to me. It seems like the old way of propaganda doesn't seem to work as well this time. It seems like people are fully aware of what's going on in Gaza. And they are not just blindly, you know, the Israel's. flag everywhere, like what they did with Ukraine. And so I think that together, probably, you know, the international pressure, not just Israel, but also on the U.S. And I think Biden has to think about that.

Didn't Biden on his way to the Middle East, he was planning to meet a Jordanian president and Egypt and the Palestinians, and all three of them has canceled their meeting with him? That's pretty big pressure for him. I don't think he truly want that that kind of isolation for the United States in the Middle East. I don't think he won't upset everybody in the Middle East and like unconditional, continue to support Israel that sense. So I think the employee probably can use that as an opening to talk into, you know, to get people older concerning parties to really can sit down talk. And in particular, some kind of a ramp, you know, slowing down. giving to the Israeli government,

Natanyahu in particular, he seems like the person who's headstrong about this whole thing. So right now, immediate goal is to get a ceasefire and get the restored water. Those are very serious. Medicine and water and electricity, all those things get restored. However, the way they can do it, I think that's their highest priority.

They wanted to stop. The crisis has to be. you know, some kind of a resolution for the crisis, immediate solution for that. But in the long run, it's the two states. They want to see it get totally fixed, right? That's what I think they are thinking right now. There was something in Wang Yi's, the Chinese readout, of his conversation with Blinker, that really I find most interesting.

And that was that he was speaking. And I think, I mean, obviously I've seen this in a moment. machine translation, but you've actually read out yourself. He was talking about an international peace conference to find a resolution of the problem. And I find that most interesting, because it seemed as if the thinking that the Chinese have, which by the way is not especially different from the Russian, but it's a bit more precisely expressed now is that the Americans have failed, they've not been able to resolve this crisis, they've monopolized negotiations for almost 40 plus years, and what we now need to have

is a much broader based process to settle this conflict, and that requires a peace conference bringing together all the parties, but also various, outside parties too. And am I reading this correctly? I mean, did he actually say that? I mean, because I say I'm relying on machine translations and things of that, like of that nature, an actual peace conference. He did actually, he's actually thinking in those terms.

Yeah, I guess that's probably what he talked about when we, get everybody in Beijing, all the embassy, you know, ambassadors from the Middle East, they had a big conference there already. So I wonder whether that's what they were talking about, okay, to get this problem really solved, we need some very extensive discussions among all the parties and countries in the Middle East. I wonder whether that's what they were talking about

and he probably already got support from those countries. And that's why he said them at the whole time International Peace Conference. Yes. You read it correctly, yes. But I just wondered that's kind of like coming out of that meeting with all the ambassadors from the Middle East countries. I think that's probably what they were thinking about, at least part of it. Now that can only, legally speaking, be set up.

I think I'm right in saying this through the mechanism of some kind of UN resolution. We had this before, by the way, at the end of the 1973 war, the Soviets and the American, broke a ceasefire. This is the war that took place, the October 1973 war between Israel and the Arab countries. There was a ceasefire and there was a resolution. And the resolution was to set up

an international peace conference to be chaired by the Soviet Union and the United States and to be held in Geneva. And that peace conference never really established. It never happened. Partly, by the way, because there were bitter arguments about who should represent the Palestinians

or whether the Palestinians should be represented at all. That was all the way back in the 1970s. Would China this time be prepared to propose such a conference, do you think, to the United Nations? And would the Chinese be willing to be involved in sharing it? I think they probably are, even though they haven't to set it openly. Now, one thing that the conversation, Wang Yi and Blinken talked about is they both agree. Seems to me Blinken also agreed a two-state solution. Now, that has been the U.S. official position, even though they haven't been trying very far to push it, okay,

from their end to push it to Israeli government. They haven't to do anything. But officially, they have been every presidential candidate seems when they were running, they always say, okay, my suggestion is the two-state solution. Hillary Clinton said that, and so I think at some point Biden said that too. So that's the official position of the United States. And if that's so, when China's saying, okay, let's have international peace conference, then the two-state solution has to be the main theme for all parties, right?

That has to be the thing because the U.S., you agree that that should be the ultimate solution. We support that. And the Palestinians, of course, Palestinian and Israel, both countries should come here, and then let's see this Tuesday solution. How do we move forward with this? I think that seems like one particularly brought that up about the two-state solution, and Blinken seems to agree with that. So I do think, you know, with that, if there is an international conference, peace conference,

can use that, right, as a starting point, you know? And I think China, probably, I would say China would be willing to do that. Yes. Yeah, because that would mark a fundamental change in the political geography of the Middle East. Because, of course, the Soviets were involved in the Middle East, but they never had the complete support of all the Arab countries. I mean, Saudi Arabia, for example, was on very bad terms with the Soviets. They didn't even have diplomatic relations at that.

time. Whereas my understanding is that China has good relations with all the Arab states. Am I right in thinking this? I think so. I think pretty much, yes, all Arab states, yes. So in that sense, probably China is a good candidate to do that, you know, to host up something like that. International Peace Conference, yes. And the only thing is, does the United States want to support China all this? Well, that brings us to the next point because, of course, it won't. I mean, for the United States, that would be the worst possible nightmare. I mean, having a situation where there is a peace conference,

co-chaired, I don't think the Chinese would want to do it all by themselves, but co-chaired by China in a part of the world where the United States has made all the diplomatic moves for 40 years. I mean, that would be a nightmare outcome. And as I said, it can only happen if the entire international community outside the West backs it. And if there is a relevant United Nations resolution. Now, I don't know whether you're aware of the fact that there's been a very interesting article today in the Financial Times, which it doesn't talk about China, but you can sense that China is there hovering in the background.

and it's about the resolution which was proposed to the UN Security Council yesterday. Now that was a Russian drafted resolution, but China strongly backed it. In fact, I'm fairly confident that the Chinese helped the Russians and worked on it. And the Financial Times were saying that opinion in the global south is now turning against the West. they don't like the way the West is handling this affair and they are very, very spooked about a follow-up resolution. They say that the next resolution might win nine votes, the nine votes in the Security Council,

at which point the West, if it vetoes it, is going to be in a very, very difficult position. So firstly, big question now, and of course it's, you know, but you're aware of Chinese foreign. policy. China, as I understand it, is a big supporter of the United Nations and is a big supporter of upholding international law. I mean, I think that is well established. Would China be prepared to support a resolution to the General Assembly? And by the way, this Financial Times article

was also talking about concern about something that might come out of the General Assembly. Yeah. Oh, yeah, the, yes, the resolution you're talking about, I just talked about a little bit that too. Yeah, so China definitely is behind it, it is supported, and, et cetera, and China is not surprised that it didn't pass. Okay, that's not a surprise, but they still want to push forward. Partially is to just put on the pressure. You know, sometimes you just, you know, put forward some resolution, let them veto it, let them, you know, vote against it, whatever. You still put on pressure. I have to say, I've never seen the West has been so isolated.

It's almost like it's I think we see almost like a replay. So when first Ukrainian war started, the West had very much to want the whole world vote against, you know, to put pressure on Russia. And they didn't happen. You know, the global South, more or less, either they just stay neutral or simply just, you know,

against the resolution to punish the Russia, et cetera, to condemn Russia, et cetera. This time, it's almost like the same thing. They also very much want the whole world to be on Israel side, you know, to condemn the Hamas, etc. Chuck Schumer was in China when this happened. He was leading a delegation, right, with the senators. And he was openly asking the Chinese government when they were talking, saying, aren't you going to condemn Hamas? China just didn't.

China just didn't say anything. They're not condemning what Hamas did. That doesn't mean China support what Hamas did. But just like the Ukraine war, you have to see the context, right? You have to see what the Western has been doing to lead up to it.

It really could have been avoided in both cases in terms of the Ukraine war, in terms of what Hamas did. They all could have been avoided. Had the West really play a positive, serious role in these things. But they don't. They create mess. And then they say, oh, you need to condemn this.

You need to condemn that. Be on our side, et cetera. China just doesn't play that game anymore. And I think not just China, but the global set us, more or less, pretty much, we're done with these kind of games. We're not going to just play based on Europe, whatever you want us to play. So not only that, I think I feel like even, I think the Western leaders almost like isolate themselves amongst their own people. I think the public opinion also right now want to see this thing, the ceasefire in media, in particular

in them, they just bombed a hospital. How can you support something like that? How can you not be urgently calling some kind of solution, right, that to stop all this, they're not doing it. And if you see the public opinion, I think it's shifting. That's why the mainstream media now, like reporting about the hospital, I'm surprised everybody reported it. And now to try to spin it,

Okay, this is how many people did this, etc. Actually, most people like, okay, it doesn't look like what the comments did. You know, the way it's bombed happened, it's very much like Israel's. So that also, all these things, I think gradually more people like, this is what's going on. But I'm not sure the Western leader knows that. I'm not sure Biden is fully aware of what's going on. You know, so it's very unfortunate that our political leaders are supposed to be our leaders. they're supposed to lead us.

But they are very slow following us, I think. If Biden tried to telephone Xi Jinping at this moment to discuss this problem, would Xi Jinping speak to him? Because I get the impression that the Chinese are still very angry about some of the things that Biden has said about Xi Jinping. I mean, he's made some really astonishing statements. He calls Xi Jinping a dictator. he said some deeply offensive things about Xi Jinping.

He stated the Union address. The Chinese, as far as I can tell, they're still very annoyed about all of that. But on a crisis like this, if today Biden understood that foreign policy, the priority now is to stabilize the situation in the Middle East and the China plays a role, Will the Chinese answer his call?

I think the Xi Jinping will. He will answer his call, even though, like you said, the Chinese government and Xi Jinping probably particularly really not, that he doesn't like Biden. But I think he's a person, I mean, recently Putin had an interview with one of the Chinese media. And he said Xi Jinping is a person who doesn't just look at right now. He looks at the whole picture.

He looked at the long term. that's how he makes his decision. And I think that's correct. I think Putin himself is like that too. And look at the big picture, look at the long term, and not just the particular moment, very emotional about it. So I think Xi Jinping knows right now

the highest priority really is to stop this humanitarian disaster right now, and I think the Chinese government wants to achieve that, then they have to talk to the US government. So if Biden willing to talk to him about this, I think he will pick up the phone and he will talk seriously about this. And I wonder whether this time around they will be a little bit different. I think Biden must understand, you know, this thing.

If he get it wrong, it can go very wrong. You know, it can really fundamentally change the U.S. position in the Middle East. I hope Biden understand that, right? So he really serious about this. And now just, you know, pick up the phone and start to lecture in China, you know, stop all that. I think it's the time has passed to do all that kind of thing just to get to the point

and do something concrete seriously Yeah Might be very difficult to get Biden To do that I suspect Going on to other things There is a line of thought I'm going to just have to ask this question Which you see in Britain especially

I think less in the United States Actually The China actually Is happy that there is this crisis that the Chinese actually benefit from the fact that there is a crisis in the Middle East and that the way they benefit is because the United States is distracted and that what China really wants is not to see the crisis in the Middle East resolved

but on the contrary to see it continued. I mean, do you get any of that sense at all? I mean, I've actually seen people in Britain. say that. I mean, I get people right to me in Britain who tell me that. Do you get any sense of that at all in China? I mean, I don't, I'll tell you straight away. I haven't seen no sign of this myself. But what are your thoughts about this? You see, from China's perspective, and there are also people think that the war in Ukraine, you know, is very good for China, so it should go on, et cetera. Well, that's a very short-sighted. Maybe in the short run, you can say, if China somehow benefited.

from it because, you know, West is distracted, et cetera. But China never see things, you know, in terms of just the next few months and even a few years. China see it like five years, 10 years, 20, 30 years. In the long run, fundamentally, China really, what is China really good at doing trade, commerce? And you can't have a very robust commerce and trade when everywhere is engulfed in wars. That's just that simple. okay so in that sense it always serves China's best interest when there's peace if nothing else when you're transporting things right the safety okay of the goods and services all right and things like it blow up the North Stream those are the things that

China definitely do not want to see because China is building everywhere building the trains and building you know bridges and building all these things And then if they got blow up, I mean, what China tongue gained from those things? So that's the difference. I think United States, some people in the United States actually enjoy having war because they feel like when there's chaos, you can get something out of chaos. There are people who believe them, who actually think chaos is good. That's why they have, in my view, I think the neo-conn, the deep state, they have an enemy type of. I think they have an enemy pipeline.

They put in different countries into their pipeline. They always want some kind of war, somebody they can hate, and then they have wars and here, they are there. But that's not the China see it. You know, that China see that peace and prosperity goes hand in hand. Fundamentally, that's what China is good at. And as long as there's peace, as long as there's negotiation, China can always find ways with problems, whatever problem.

But if we all, you know, have peace as our, highest priority, everybody agree that we should have peace. I think China is fine with whatever negotiation, if they need to give up something, I think China is okay with that. But if there's war everywhere, it's not something that China can easily control, right, when there's war. So I don't think in the long run China benefited from it if everybody's, every country is involved, you know, engulfed in the war. China right now is the largest trading partner with over 140 countries. So it's all over the world. It's truly global, right? And so global peace, I think, is China's best interest.

I think the Chinese government definitely believe in that. Now, when there is a war going out that they cannot control. If they take some advantage and can you blame them, they have to deal with it, right? And then if they benefit from it, then they benefit from it, right? Like the oil price, they get oil, cheap oil from Russia. I mean, why not? Right. So you can't really blame them for taking advantage, you know, when the thing it is.

But like Ukraine, I mean, China actually. used to have very good relationship with the Ukraine too. When the war broke, and China has to cancel quite a few projects there. So it's not like China benefits purely. I don't go along with that at all. I don't believe that.

Let's actually say this is quite well into the actual Belt and Roads summit, because this is, in fact, the actual reason why all of these leaders are there. And in fact, we've had some economic news from China, and it's

suggests that they are going to reach their 5% GDP growth target this year. So, you know, they do seem to be getting themselves organized economically and it does seem as if the Chinese economy is going. But talk to us about the Belt and Road, because we have now, Putin is in China, he's been meeting with Xi Jinping. These are, I think it's fair to say, the two most powerful countries at this conference, China and Russia. And from what I could see, Putin was given a particularly big welcome when he arrived. How does China envisage this relationship with Russia? There are people in the West who are saying, I've been reading articles by Mr.

Thomas Graham of the U.S. Council for Foreign. relations, that the Chinese approach to Russia is a predatory one, that they want to absorb Russia economically, that they want to create a kind of greater China, of which Russia

will be a part. Is that what the Chinese are actually doing in their relationship with the Russians? I think anybody can absorb Russia. You must be pretty fancy.

to believe that any country can absorb Russia. I mean, so, no, that's not China sees things, right? China would like to keep whatever China thinks. Okay, like Taiwan, that's not negotiable. It is part of China. That's how China see it. Okay, that's it. But China doesn't have the ambition in terms of territory expansion,

that China is never in China's history and habit even. But what China wants is to have a good relationship with Russia. Now, China does it throughout history, have problems with Russia and Russia took parts of China as well. So those are real problems throughout the history. And even the Soviet and China had a very turbulent relationship

in the up and downs. And so I think that Mao's relationship with Stalin, for example, is very complicated. But anyway, so I think right now they solved their border issues in the 90s. I think they had a good discussion

and so that is no longer an issue, the border dispute. And that's it. I think that's all there is in terms of their dispute. If they solve the border issues, everybody agreed on, all you left is doing trade. Okay, the two countries actually complement each other pretty well. You know, Russian is energy rich, right? China has a huge industry, which use a lot of energy.

And because they're neighboring countries, so it's kind of relatively easy in terms of, of the energy moving, they're building pipelines and stuff like that. And so in that sense, mutual benefit. China is always about mutual benefit, because China believe the mutual benefit can be sustainable.

If one side get all the benefits, the other side get nothing, it's not sustainable. That's how China sees it. Again, long-term thinking, right? And so that's why the Chinese view with Russia is a good neighbor, powerful neighbor, we need to have a good relationship,

And we complement each other in terms of our business, our industries, et cetera. That's what China wants. I don't think China really want to consume and get Russia into China. No, nobody can do that. No, China certainly is not going to try it. How does this influence China's position on the Ukraine conflict? Because Putin, in the interview he gave to the Chinese media, he spoke very warmly about the Chinese approach to the Ukraine conflict

and about the Chinese, you know, principles that, you know, China published that position paper some months ago, setting out what they saw as the essential core elements of the Ukraine conflict. So how does China perceive that conflict? And is there any possibility if there is an approach to them from, say, the Ukraine, Ukrainians, that the Chinese might be prepared to act as a mediator in the conflict. Because that has been discussed. It's again something that the U.S. does not want to see.

But would the Chinese be willing to work to achieve some kind of settlement via a Chinese mediation process? Well, China certainly wants to see the Ukraine war to end. It's the same reason China doesn't want to see the whole Middle East to blow up. Okay. I think China's approach to this is this, that so far China tried, right, with this 12 points of peace plan or some kind of a, I would say, a roadmap before. It's not much of a plan, but more like a draft, a framework. Okay. And also talk to different parties. I think at the moment China decided that as long as the West, again, this is, you know, in China's view, it's another mess that created by the West. It could have been avoided all together. You guys talking a lot about that. in the program. And it is created by the West. And they need to be serious.

Like in particular, United States need to be serious while to end this conflict. As long as there is no motivation or no sign of seriousness from the U.S. side, I don't think China want to do much, right? It's kind of a waste of your time. Why would you do that?

But maybe right now, I mean, it's winding down and the interest is, you know, the Europeans and the U.S. main public their own public opinion and kind of get tired of the whole thing. And now with the Middle East, maybe there is an opening there.

China will assess to see whether now U.S. is more willing to really talk and end this whole thing. Now, if that's the case, if China is convinced that the U.S. is on board, is willing to do something seriously,

I think China will be fine. We're willing to to mediate some kind of a peace deal or something, I think China would. But as long as the Western, in particular the U.S., is continued dead fast, want to do, you know, just want to continue the war, I don't think China would put much into it

because it won't generate, it won't result anything. Right? And the thing I just this morning, Biden is asking $100 billion from the, he's considering, seriously from considering, 100 billion to support Ukraine and Israel and Taiwan. Okay, Taiwan is part there too in that 100 billion. I mean, if you continue this kind of a route,

I mean, there's not much China can do. There's not much anybody can do if you still get fast, want to continue all these wars and want to open up a new front. Like I said, this enemy pipeline, right? if that's all you want, I don't think anybody can do anything. And China is fully aware of that. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is one last point I wanted to make, which is a brief one, which is this, that, I mean, I thought that there was something fairly similar about the Chinese approach to Ukraine and the Chinese approach to this Middle East thing, in that the Chinese propose these very broad conceptual frameworks. They talk about these. 12 principles that will be used to settle the Ukrainian thing. But it's not a plan.

It's a position paper. They talk about an international conference, but again, they're very careful not to be too precise as to what exactly that means, who will be involved, who will be participated, who will participate. It seems almost as if they like to set these things up there as a sort of, of things to work towards rather than wanting to give a sort of clear precise picture of what it's going to be, how it's going to work out. Because I get the sense that they want to talk with people, they want to sort of develop ideas and then flesh out these proposals, these concepts that they have set out. I mean, am I being correct?

Is that how the way the Chinese work, that they like to sort of work gradually towards an outcome, which they've sort of signposted, but have not been too precise about? You're absolutely right. Well, the Chinese approach is not like, okay, here's the plan. Everybody have to sign up for it. That's not the Chinese way of doing this.

So what they like to do is, okay, here's the framework, here is the principle. Let's all agree on this first. So you need to start somewhere. Everybody can say, okay, we can move from here. If you post something already, okay, these are the things we're going to do. And some people may immediately say, no, I'm not going with them. This is something I can't agree to. Well, then you're not going anywhere.

All right, it's got rejected right there. So it's better to have a framework. or some kind of principle that everybody agrees, okay? And then with that principle, with that framework, let's move to more detailed discussions, right? So you can't like testing the water, okay, to see, okay, at least we agree on these principles, which is, like you said, very broad and sometimes even vague,

but at least everybody can agree on something. Then you move from there, right? You work from there, and then the next step, we can talk to this part, and then let's agree on this one, and then we move to the next part. and the next part. That's how the Chinese approach on things.

They are very different from the West approach. It's, okay, here is what I think, you should do. And then that's it. Sign up to it. You know, I just don't think that's the way China see it. Because in the end, China wants whatever the resolution, the solution to the problem to be a joint effort. So it's not like a China's effort.

It's just joint everybody agreed, everybody contributed to the discussion. It's a joint effort. so that everybody can agree too. That's how I think. As somebody who's been involved in many commercial negotiations, I would also say that it reminds me very much of the approach that's taken in commercial negotiations. It's that, you know, you have a clear, a picture of where you want to go, but then you work with your partner towards that outcome,

and you work with the partner to sort of establish the details and think about what it's going to be. And that goes very much to what you said, the China's particular skills are trade and commerce, and that, of course, involves a lot about negotiation. Sophia, I think we've kept you for over an hour, and I think this has been an enormously stimulating program. This is where I'm going to end,

just to say thank you on my part. I don't know whether, Alex, you wanted to add anything. Yeah. I think we can wrap it up. It's been over an hour that we've had Sophia on. I think we covered a lot of ground. Sophia, once again, where can people find you? What's the best place to find you?

Small town voice is my channel, and I will try to put more content there. Okay. Okay. That's what you can follow. Great, great. And I will have the links to connect to Sophia in the description box down below and as a pinned comment as well. Thank you very much, Sophia, for your time. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Great to have you on. Take care, everybody. Bye.