The Duran Podcast - Debt, Decline and Iran: Why the U.S. Can't Afford Another Forever War? w/ Dennis Kucinich

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Debt, Decline and Iran: Why the U.S. Can't Afford Another Forever War? w/ Dennis Kucinich

All right, Alexander, we are here with the fantastic Dennis Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich, thank you for joining us once again on the Duran. It's a pleasure to have you with us. Before we get started, you have an excellent substack that you would like to mention. Yeah, anyone who's interested can just go to substack Dennis Kucinich and sign up. I myself and my wife publish regularly articles that relate to matters of war, peace, agriculture, healthcare, the whole range of practical interest that people not only in America, but around the world have. So thank you. And thank you for this invitation to be on the Duran

again. I think that our discussions will hopefully inform your broad audience about where things appear to be moving and what can be done about it. It's a pleasure to have you with us. And I will have that substack linked in the description box down below, as well as a pinned comment as well. So definitely recommend subscribing and signing up to Dennis Kucinich's substack. Fantastic substack. Alexander, Mr. Kucinich, let's talk about what is happening in the world, what is happening

in the United States with this war in Iran. Absolutely. because this is becoming a war which is looking, at least as far as I can see, is looking like another unwinnable war. And the United States has been involved, of course, in many of those. Dennis Kucinich was active in politics at the time of the war in Vietnam, which perhaps provides the frame for what might be described as unwinnable wars. I've seen some of the rhetoric, some of the language of that previous war in the 1960s revived and used again.

People talking about quagmires and credibility gaps. Those who were around then can remember all that language, no doubt. But an extraordinary situation. And this, just a year and a half after the American people voted in an election, believing that they had voted against further wars of this kind. How, in light of that, did we get into a war like this and so fast? So Dennis Kucin, any thoughts about that? Well, yes, I have many thoughts about it. First of all, I have seen as someone who's been involved in politics for many years in the states,

evidence of what you pointed out with respect to Vietnam, how the U.S. entered into a quagmire without really looking before we leapt into the conflict in Southeast Asia that spread to a war, which resulted in millions of people being killed of 50,000 American soldiers' untold costs. and then, you know, I said, well, that wouldn't happen again. Well, we had wars visited upon Serbia, which ended, and of course the war in Iraq, which was based on lies. I was in Congress at that time and helped organize 125 members of the House to vote against the Iraq War Resolution and gave close to 350 speeches on the floor of the House over a period of years as to war. why we, you know, starting before we went to war, why we shouldn't go to war,

why we need to get out of the war and plans to end the war. But the U.S. made a commitment there and kept it for years. And, you know, whatever the war was during the time in my presence in the House of Representatives for 16 years, I opposed it. So where are we now? This war is a war of choice. It had nothing to do directly with American interests. this was a war that was encouraged by and pushed by Benjamin Netanyahu and Israeli interests

whose interests are not to be considered mutual by any means with that of the United States of America. And even these so-called peace talks that occurred in Islamabad recently reflect the Israeli influence because it was Israel that with the help of Jared Kushner and Whitkoff and Susie Wiles calling at least 11 times during the Vance's discussions scuttled any hope of an agreement and went back to non-negotiable demands and furthermore was reported in the Hebrew press that even if Iran had agreed to what were essentially non-negotiable demands, the bar was going to be raised further. This is a war that will continue.

And it will continue because Israel has a chokehold right now on the presidency, on American politics. And until that hold is broken, the U.S. is going to be embroiled in this war one way or another against Iran. How is this possible, though? I mean, when this is said that the Israelis have this enormous influence in Washington, people look at the relative power of the United States and they look at Israel. And they say, how is it possible for the tail to wag the dog to this extent?

You've worked in Congress. You've seen this in operation. If anything, it seems to have got more powerful since then. Can you tell us something of this? Yeah, yeah. It's one must understand this, that Israeli interests skillfully began to become involved in congressional races for the House and Senate. And through groups like the American-Israeli political action committee, also known as APEC, they were able to raise extraordinary amounts of money. that they would place strategically in campaigns in support of certain candidates or in opposition

of certain candidates. And over a period of years, they've been able to achieve a very, a very powerful majority of members of Congress who support Israel. Now, you know, one has to separate the mythos of Israel. and with a very strong commitment to Judaism and the ethic of Judaism, with the actual practice of the Israeli government and the Lakudnik Party, which has hijacked all that in the service of a Zionist ambition to gain more territory throughout the region. including in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, and even reaching, if they could,

as far as controlling the politics of Iran. So this is where people get confused. One is not anti-Semitic if one criticizes this Zionist attempt, Uber-Zionist attempt to take the state of Israel in a position where it's essentially a genocidal on a genocidal rampage throughout the region. That needs to be separated from the moral and ethical basis of Judaism, which is tied closely to Christianity. Because, you know, but what we have now happening is divorce from morality.

It is divorced from ethics. It is sheer, bloodthirsty lust for power and control for grabbing land and resources at the expense of millions of lives in the region. So it's a real tragedy because all those of us who may subscribe to the more lofty ambitions of the Judeo-Christian ethic are appalled by how. this has been put to service in the cause of a genocidal war. Let's talk about some of the practical effects of this in the United States. The President now wants to spend even more money on this war.

There's talk about further enormous requests to Congress. A few weeks ago I was seeing $200 billion, being that they were going to ask with Congress, to fund. This at a time when there is already a very high budget deficit, when the many people in the United States are in significant economic difficulties. We've seen inflation rise in the United States. We see the price of gas increase significantly with the risk that it will go up further. I know that you take an interest in agriculture and agricultural matters. There's problems apparently of fertilizer. There's going to be global shortages of fertilizer and of other important products as well.

I am surprised that this is getting less attention in the United States that perhaps it should do. and that at the moment, it doesn't seem to be informing decisions about the wall. Well, first of all, your recitation of the economic pressures that are impinging on the American public, and for that matter, beginning to spread globally is correct. Let me, for the sake of this discussion, participate in the unpacking of that. the U.S. right now has something in the area of $38 trillion of a deficit. It takes a trillion dollars a year to service that debt. Last year, the U.S. approved a so-called defense budget,

which is really in furtherance of a military industrial. complex for about a trillion dollars if you include intelligence in that. As you pointed out, there is an ongoing request for an additional $200 billion for a supplemental appropriation for the Iran War. Now, why would that be? First of all, the U.S. has already exhausted its supply of Tomahawk missiles. They've basically cleaned out the entire inventory of munitions and need this additional appropriation to keep the war going. Will Congress approve it? At this point, I don't see any evidence said to the contrary because Congress could have stopped the warranted's tracks by passing a resolution, denying any

funds at all. The Congress could stop the warrant its tracks. by disapproving the $200 billion. We'll see what happens with that. In addition to that, the president has requested $1.5 trillion just for the military in the 2020-7 budget. That constitutes at least 80% of the discretionary spending of the United States. So the U.S. is increasingly becoming a militarized society because if you militarized a budget, you militarize the society. And the president, a couple weeks ago, as some people who are watching

are aware, basically said, hey, it's, you know, I'll paraphrase, you know, we shouldn't be, we can't be funding Medicare, Medicaid, and childcare. That's for the states to worry about. We have to fund our military. So the U.S. is becoming this armed encampment in the world. It's extending itself. It's growing in this environment. Empire ambition, and frankly, it's going to run into a brick wall because you cannot, you cannot ignore these economic forces. And what's happening, as you point out, inflation, the inflationary knock-on effect of this war, we're affecting the supply of oil, price of oil will keep climbing, we're affecting supplies

that are needed, as you pointed out, for agriculture, fertilizer, And it should be mentioned that family farms are failing in the U.S. because of markets being rigged by big agriculture and also because of some of the trade policies of this administration and because they don't have access to capital. But in addition, but when we're going back to the issue of the effect of the war, helium is used in production of computer chips. And pretty soon that supply line is going to be over, and that is another big industry that's going to be affected. Americans are finding not only the price of gas going up, but the price of food at the supermarket, and frankly, Alexander and Alex, this is where in American politics the impact is going to be very powerful, because when people see that they're being adversely affected by the policies of their government, that have an adverse economic effect on their own lives,

you're going to see a political pushback that will come into midterm elections. Why is the so little popular opposition to this war up to now? You were there in Congress, I remember you, by the way, at the time, organizing opposition in Congress against the war in Iraq. I mean, you weren't the majority, but you were a voice that people heard. We heard you in Britain. In Britain, anywhere between half a million, according to the police, or many more, millions of people protested in London against the war, the war against Iraq.

Iran, Iraq was a very brutal, very violent dictatorship. It had a history of violent. aggression against its neighbors, it was in some ways a more obvious target for attack, you could argue, than Iran is, which has not had a history that is quite so bad, at least so it seems to me. And yet people protested against Iraq, the war in Iraq, rightly so, in my opinion. People are not protesting in the same way against the war in Iran, despite the fact that it's going to affect them personally in a way that the war in Iraq against Iraq never did?

Well, you know, one of the factors, and I can harken back to my own college days, one of the factors is suppression of dissent on campus, so much so that people who would challenge the U.S. policy with respect to Israel and becoming involved with Israel's genocidal policy through subsizing Israel. You do that on campus, you could be expelled, suspended, luger scholarship. Universities have been bludgeoned into submission so much so that they become the police that enforce any dissent. So that's one factor. However, I see this just temporary.

Keep in mind that a few weeks ago, under the ages of a group called No Kings, there are 9 million people in hundreds of cities across the United States protesting the Trump administration generally, but many were protesting the war specifically. So there is a percolating dissent, and it's coming from a couple different quarters. It's coming from economics, people feeling this pressure. It's coming from a feeling that this authoritarian, even fascist,

administration in Washington is out of control. And people, you know, Americans generally have an innate concern about this idea of control being controlled. It might be forgotten at times. But, you know, when you go deeper, Americans will resist. And when you wake up that resistance, it is a force that will change the government. This government is in peril, as far as I can see. It is, you know, uneasy rests the crown on this particular self-proclaimed king

because there is this dissent stirring. It will affect midterms elections, but it will continue to grow. And as this work continues, and I don't. don't see anything that will stop it from continuing in many different manifestations, whether it's a blockade, further bombing, which makes no sense, or even attempt to, and incursions that would be infantry. And naval, you know, so you've got Air Force, infantry, naval. There might be different things, including attempts at interrupting technology through cyber warfare.

whatever happens here, they're not going to defeat Iran. It's not going to happen. This is like a fantasy. This was Netanyahu looking to destroy Iran, to claim a victory, to put himself and get reelected, and he can prove how tough he is. The U.S. had no interest in this at all. this thing about a nuclear weapon is baloney.

It's like to harkens back to the phony who claims of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that trope has already been used. So where does it go? I'm thinking that the war may continue. Public opposition will rise. And when it does, it's going to be brutal for the rest.

Republicans in the midterm, and Trump could very well see himself impeached and removed in the next Congress. Are there any off-ramps? Is there any possible diplomatic route towards off-ramps? One of the things that I remember, again, from the 1960s, is that one of the strange facts about the war in Vietnam is that even though it caused a... a very terrible war, enormous loss of life. In some ways, the international, the overall, the big international situation, if you like, the relationship between the great powers of the era, the United States, the Soviet Union, China, actually improved.

There was the meeting between Johnson and Kassigin in Glaspera. There was detente that followed. There was the arms control treaties of that era. there was a general stabilization of the situation in Europe. And of course, there was the opening to China. And Nixon's visit to China in, I think it was 1972. So in spite of the fact that at the core of the international situation, there was this tremendous crisis between the great powers, relations improved.

I don't get the sense that that is true this time. that on the contrary, relations are actually getting worse. Can you speak to that? Yes, and you're correct. And here's why you're correct. The Trump administration has pursued this fantasy that it is still a unipolar world. It is not. The United States is no longer at the apex.

of everything that happens in the world. The world is much more interconnected and interdependent than Mr. Trump would have us believe. The United States' efforts to impress tariffs on various countries, which eventually fell apart and people are looking for refunds now. But that was an example of this idea of America, ruling over everyone, the idea we're going to grab Greenland, the move into Venezuela,

the threat to Canada, the threat to the Pope. I mean, this is all a part and parcel of a megal maniacal viewpoint. Now, how do other nations perceive that? Well, even before Trump, there there was the formation of countries which respected each other's sovereignty, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, Iran coming in to Bricks. And that formed a trading block, which wasn't really a threat. but when with Trump's playing a heavy hand, it helped people to begin to explore a greater cooperation among those nations. And once that's happened, this more recent attack on Iran has caused the Iranians to place the value of the oil that comes through, not in petro dollars, but in Chinese currency denominations of one.

So that shows you how this division is occurring and how America is increasingly putting itself, isolating itself. If you go to the United Nations, the U.S. and Israel represent about 1% of the votes in the UN, or 1% of the population of the world. And yet the other 99% looks upon what's happening with general disapproval and even shock. Now, we're moving into, we're at a pivot point in history here, where the U.S. is moving towards the end of empire, where Trump is. accelerating that movement, where it will have an effect on the American economy, on the elasticity of the U.S. dollar, which depends on a petro dollar, on therefore investments in America,

on the ability of America to service its end, on the ability of America to meet the needs of our own people here. All those things are coming into the mix now. Can you talk, can you speak about something else, which you read a lot about in Britain, but you also hear about it in the United States, that militarization of the economy of, it is actually in some ways a good thing because it will result in an industrial revival. I think it is very heavily based on folk memories.

I call them folk memories. Mythologies, perhaps would be a stronger word, of the Second World War, when the United States did indeed experience, a major industrial and economic search that was connected to the war. But I certainly don't think today that military Keynesianism, as it's also sometimes called, has any benefit to it whatsoever. What I see it do is divert resources from civilian industry and civilian production

to military industry and military production, which ultimately reduces living standards rather than increase them and provides fewer jobs and fewer opportunities than civilian industry and the economy actually do. But can you speak to this? Because I know it's something that you've addressed before in the past.

And I actually get people talk about, this to me. Well, you know, you're, first of all, your analysis is spot out and let me explain how. During World War II, Americans and after World War II, Americans were organized along industrial production, first during the war for the wartime effort, but then afterwards that production began slowly to move more profoundly into steel, automotive, and, and the steel, automotive, aerospace, and shipping. Those industries were the mainstay of America's strategic industrial base. Over the years, that base has been slowly disappearing, mainly through trade agreements

and the search for lower wage climate. And as a result, you have areas like the area I represented for 16 years. in northern Ohio, where grass is growing in parking lots where they used to make steel cars and broader in the Midwest washing machines and dryers and all kinds of household equipment, we've lost much of that in addition at the smaller machine shops. So let's go to the war economy.

There's a certain part of, When the nation was preparing for war years ago, it was labor intensive. The activity is labor intensive. All that changed today. Today it's capital and technology intensive. That's where the money goes. I mean, you have robots doing work that used to be done by human beings. And so what that means is that this is not about jobs anymore.

It's about expenditure. and the money that's going to technology for these missiles, for example, is extraordinary. This is all about electronics, about the use of certain metals. It's all changed. So war does not create jobs. As you point out, it takes away jobs. So Trump himself has basically confessed to that with a statement about not money for Medicare, Medicaid, and child care, but we have to have money for war. What that does is eventually breaks a society.

and America cannot be sustained with that. And what I want to add is this. America must change its role in the world. We can no longer be a nation above nations. We have to be a nation among nations. We have to roll back all these 800-plus military bases around the world. We can no longer afford it. We don't need to do that.

We need to lead the world in nuclear abolition, not just having these arguments of picking and choosing winners and losers on nuclear weaponry. We need to begin to focus on things here at home. We cannot sustain this economy, you know, more than 80% of our domestic spending going for the military. Because, you know, there is a schism that's occurring between the domestic needs and this military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about in his farewell speech years ago. So, you know, America's role has to change. It must, there is no other way that this country can't survive, because otherwise we're going to be walking into that graveyard of empires, which is well

known about his, you know, throughout history, where countries became so puffed up with the arrogance of their leaders, that they missed the signals that were coming of on-rushing, that of oncoming disaster. As somebody who lives in prison, I know what about that, but just to quickly say, I've seen that, I've seen that play out here in the country that was once the empire over which the sun literally never said. Last question for me, is this war going to be the catalyst that is going to bring about change? The economic consequences seem to be far greater than the previous wars, though I think Vietnam

actually did bring about significant economic change and significant economic damage. That's my own view. But is this war, which... whose economic consequences seem to be enormous. Is this going to be the last war of this kind that America can afford to fight in this way? Your thoughts on this? Well, we put all of our wars on a credit card, okay? We spent, depending on who you talk to, at least $4 trillion in the war against Iraq,

which resulted in the deaths of a million innocent Iraqis. and 5,000 American soldiers. The only ends if the American people demand a different kind of country. You're right about the cost. I mean, we're already approaching about $50 billion, I think, for this particular war. It's the human impact that I, that's, I think about. I'll tell you, I mean, I'm sure that this is true of many reviewers. I find it very difficult to get out of my mind the fact that, you know, about 168 children in

Minab, Iran were killed with a Tamahar missile fired by the United States of America. I find it difficult to countenance that my country is funding a genocidal war against the people of Gaza, against the people of the West Bank, dispossessing them of their homes, that were licensing, wiping out south Lebanon and maybe north of the Lillotani River that were paying for this attack on Iran. What is this all about? I mean, millions of people have either been killed or put at risk because of this mentality, which is separate from morals,

ethics, it's all about the almost a maniacal imposition of power for the sake of resources and personal gain. My God, when are we going to learn, when are we going to learn that, you know, it's time to live and let live and stop this murderous rampage across the world? You know, as an American, I have to tell you, and as someone has been involved in government, this government has to change. Our purpose of governance has been alienated from our very founding, which we celebrate this year, 250 years. This is not the America, our founders envisioned of an authoritarian government on a fascist rampage, a murderous rampage across the world. I don't buy it.

and I'm hopeful that more and more Americans don't buy it. And I'm hopeful that more and more Americans will begin to look at what's happening here at home and say it's time that we took care of our own people instead of trying to kill other people around the world. Dennis Kassilius, thank you for those very, very powerful and wise words. Thank you also for answering my questions so thoroughly and wisely. we will no doubt have to speak again as these events play out. But thank you for coming on our program. Thank you, Alexander, and very much.

And thank you, Alex, as well. Thank you, Mr. Dennis Kucinich. I have the link to your substack in the description box down below and as a pin comment as well. Thank you for joining us.