The Duran Podcast - Germany Deindustrialising & Subordinated - Sevim Dağdelen, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

Episode Date: November 30, 2024

Germany Deindustrialising & Subordinated - Sevim Dağdelen, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

Hi everyone and welcome. Today we will be discussing the changes within Germany and also the changing role of Germany in the wider world. And to do so, I am joined by Alexander Mercuris and Savimdegelen, a German politician, a member of the German Bundestag and also the author of a new book on NATO. So, yeah, Savim Dagdalen, she was initially elected in DeLenke, but then joined others who broke away and joined this newly established political party with Sarah Wagenknecht, and again, which has in less than a year now changed German politics. So, yes, I believe that you are the perfect person to speak with, to really understand the changes in German politics. So, yes, thank you so much for coming on.

It's great to talk to you. Thanks for having me, Alexander and Glenn. And I hope I'm maybe not the perfect but adequate partner to discuss the German and European policies. Sure. Well, I was thinking, well, my first question, I guess, would be about the internal situation in Germany. Because as we know, Germany has kind of been the economic locomotive, a source of stability to some extent within all of Europe. and as outsiders we often become a bit bewildered, especially over the past few years,

about some of the instability, which appears to be occurring in Germany. So I was wondering, how do you see this? What is really behind all this social, economic, and even political upheaval in Germany? Well, it's quite disastrous. Let me put it in that way. The German economy is,

undergoing a very heavy crisis. And the situation is characterized by economic stagnation. And among industrialized countries, Germany is in the statistics at the bottom of the table when it comes to economic growth. And we do have, we face mass layoffs on the cards in many companies, such as, for example, Volkswagen is going to, to close three plans, whole plans. Bosch is going to cut 3,500 jobs, bought 2,900, Miele, 300, Bayer, 500, Z.F, is a very important company for the car industry, is going to cut off 14,000

jobs in BISF, 2,500. So, as you can see, it's the car industry, but not only the car industry, which is collapsing at the moment. And during the ongoing budget discussions, it has become abundantly clear that the federal budget is dangerously overstretched by the German government. So Germany cannot shoulder the impacts of the self-destructive economic war, the sanctions against Russia, of rearmament on the other side, on a massive. scale in the context of the NATO and the support for Ukraine, which has cost Germans 37 billion euro alone bilateral in the past two years. So this economic plight is being further worsened now by corresponding cuts to education, to infrastructure and social services, like the German foreign.

Minister Annalena Baerbach admitted very lately that they got together the 37 billion euro for Ukraine just because they cut infrastructure, health services and the pensions, for example, and in the education. So, and furthermore, one in six people in Germany is at risk of poverty. moment. So this massive burdens are destroying the middle class in Germany and threaten to push millions people in Germany into social decline. And this is the record of the broken traffic lights government of Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Foreign Minister Habeg and the Green Minister for economy, Robert Habek, and the liberals of the FTP of Christian Lindner, this is their disastrous

economic record of the past of the last three years. Can I ask a question, which is a simple one. Is it understood at all in Germany that in politics and economics and foreign policy, everything is connected. That one of the reasons the German economy has been stable for so long, which it has been, is precisely because Germany pursued a policy of peace and stability in Europe. And the fact that it is no longer doing the one means that it cannot achieve the other, that you cannot have a stable economic situation when you have an atmosphere of crisis in international.

relations. Well, it depends whom you're going to ask. So we as Zara Wangkir Alliance, we do know that. A lot of people in the industry, in the economy, in Germany, they do know that as well. And I believe a lot of people do see the, how you say, that it's causal, that it's, it's, It's an impact of the sanctions, the social impact, you know, about the high energy prices. I mean, we got skyrocketing high energy prices because of the economic war against Russia. I mean, German companies have, for example, imported Russian energy at significantly higher prices via India and Belgium because they had to avoid to import energy directly from Russia. So that's why we do have this high energy prices.

And because of the high energy prices, industry, which needs energy, a lot of energy, like in the chemical industry, but also in the car industry, the metal and the steel industry, they know that. But the problem is knowing something doesn't mean that it's going to change because the politics. You know, in the past, everyone said economy beats politics, but it's not true anymore. At the moment, geopolitics beats economy, even if it costs you that you destroy your own country. And that's the insanity. That's the insanity of this situation. So a lot of people do know this, and it's not very popular because the majority of the people in Germany,

They want diplomatic initiatives to end the war in Ukraine because the ongoing war in Ukraine with the economic warfare as well against Russia is causing all these problems in Germany, economic problems. But the problem is we do not have such a protest and the resistance we need in Germany. for example, because the trade unions, the massive trade unions, they do have millions of employers as members, the chiefs, the elites of this trade unions in Germany, they support the political approach of the government at the political elites. I was curious, what could be possible solutions to any of this? because I know it's not one issue.

I many point to the fact that the digitalization of the industry should have happened, other look at wages or infrastructure, but I guess a key issue which you address now is the energy problem, especially for a country with such heavy industries as Germany, that it would require cheap and reliable supply of energy. But how does this translate into political discussions within Germany because there seems to be

a bit of disconnect because everyone knows that Germany still buys Russian energy but through India's third party and the added cost and results in the industrialization. Is there no discussion in terms of the

what the point is of buying it through a third party as opposed to just going directly to Russia or similarly with the Nord Stream? This is also a bit confusing for outside What is the German discussions around this? Because initially, when we all blamed the Russians, it was quite straightforward. We can condemn them, but after it became known, it wasn't the Russians.

So the Americans blamed the Ukrainians, but it was probably the Americans. But either way, it's a friend or an ally who has done this to Germany. How is the political discussions managed around this, I guess, sensitive topics? Well, first of all, let me say I found this theory of the six drunken Ukrainian swimmers a little bit absurd. Let me put it in that way. I do trust more the theory of Seema Hirsch, who is a very renowned journalist, I know, and who has exposed so many war crimes in the past. so many crimes by the political elites.

So I think his theory is more plausible at all. And even if you consider that even the German intelligence from the beginning said this terrorist attack couldn't be done without state intervention and state capabilities and resources. So the thing with these six drunken swimmers from Ukraine, I think it's absurd. It just shows that they are very desperate to show any guilty personal state except the United States, which is behind all these terrorist attacks. But this North Stream approach from the German government and the German intelligence and departments show us the real problem we are facing.

The real problem is that we do have a German government, which is totally relying on the U.S. hegemon for their hegemonic interests in the world. And the problem is this hegemon is in decline, and this is irreversible. And as we can see this decline and how desperate they are fighting against their own decline, they are pushing the Vessel states, their so-called allies, like the Germans, or the other European Union member states or the NATO member states, they are pushing them to give more resources for their fight. against their own decline. And that is the problem we are facing.

And we do not have so many forces in Germany, unfortunately, which are trying to resist to this policy and trying to go for a more sovereign, more independent, foreign insecurity policy, which brings you an independent and more sovereign, economic policy as well, because as Alexander said, they are all connected. But the problem is because of this geopolitical contribution of the German government and the European Union

and the European Commission, for example, we are facing another major problem. And this is, for example, Germany is going to get involved in US, sanctions against China. And China is the second pillar of the German industry's international competitiveness. And we are now also risking to destroy this, just because the US is seeing China as the main enemy, they have to face and they have to confront. And the US policy of confrontation, the French support, by Germany and the European Union member states and the NATO states

for this United States policy of confrontation is going to threaten our second pillar of German industry. So the problem is, you know, we see this all, but we do not have the forces which are needed to stop this policy. But there is also a little bit hope because I do not want to gave such a dark picture of Germany. Although we have such a propaganda by the mainstream media and the political elites, there is still, for example, a vast majority in Germany

against sending the German missiles to Ukraine, which has a reach out of 500 kilometers after the Biden administration's decision sending attackers for the British and the French with storm shadow and scalp to give the permission

for attacks in Russian territory in the West and with what they are reached out for their long-range weapons are 300 kilometers and with the German town was you can reach out to Moscow or St. Petersburg

with 500 kilometers and the thing is We have a vast majority against this policy, and we have a majority in Germany. Instead of sending more weapons, we should start diplomatic initiative to end the war. Can I just endorse what you said? I mean, I travel to Germany reasonably often. I was in Germany a few weeks ago, months ago, a few months ago. And I met young people there in Western Germany, and I was very, very strong.

surprised at how angry and dissatisfied they are by the whole trend of policy and by the war policy that their government is following. I had not expected to hear the things that I heard. So I think I want to say that. I mean, obviously, I met a very small group of people. But can I ask about the political class, the leading, the people who lead Germany, do you think they actually understand the de-industrialization, in Germany can actually happen, that this is something that is a real possibility if the current policies are persisted in, or is it that they become so used for so long to just things going along well, you know, the motor works beneath them, that conceptually, in terms of imagination,

they can't really believe it. Because certainly amongst the people I met when I was in Germany, they do believe it. They can see that the deindustrialization is happening all around them. But I do sometimes wonder whether people like Friedrich Mitz, Olaf Schultz, all of the leaders of these parties, that they really can imagine that de-industrialization is a real prospect, a real possibility for Germany, just as it has been

in Britain, where I'm talking to you from. Well, sometimes you can get an impression that you are governed by really idiots. And we think we have the dumbest government in the history of the German, the Federal Republic of Germany because we are shooting under our own need in doing the sanctions against Russia. And we know that. I mean, the statistics, you cannot deny this statistics. You can deny some interpretations, but not mathematics and the figures. And the figures are very clear in that.

So I think the most problem is even though that some people in the departments, in the ministries, can see what a massive impact, negative impact, all these war policies and economic warfare does to the German society and economy. but the problem is that we do have a subservience politics regarding the US. I mean, just as one example, I mean, as I said, Germany is going to accompany the confrontational policy of the US towards China and gets, you know, the country now, I mean, Germany or the Germans, they want to get involved in US sanctions against China. And this, if this happens, it will inescapably lead to the destruction of trade relations with Germany's second largest trading partner with China. and there will be triggering a veritable meltdown in German industry. In October, so last month, German experts to the U.S. fell by over 6% while experts to China went down by over 19%.

And sections of Germany's industry will not survive this homemade slump in demand. So we are witnessing at the moment a process of the industry. industrialization that calls into question the entire development in Germany after 1817, including the German welfare state model, which will now come under even greater pressure. So whoever does not see this deindustrialization is someone who's denying the reality now. And the problem with deindustrialization is not a problem of, of just today or tomorrow, if the industrialization starts,

it is irreversible for many, many years because the competitors, like in the United States, I mean, Joe Biden, the outgoing president of the U.S. administration, he started with his inflation reduction act, a massive attack to the European industry and the German industry, you know, by helping the own industry and advertising the Germans and Europeans to come over to invest because of the lower energy prices and some other better conditions for the economy there and the industry and the companies.

So we are facing really this process of de-industrialization and including the German welfare state model that it comes to an end. So I hope we can end the war in Ukraine to end this insanity regarding the economic sanctions to Russia, which having such a heavy, heavy, cost-heavy crisis in Germany. I think it's a bit of a contradiction, not just with Germany, but most of Europe now, because as the world becomes multipolar, you see all these countries wanting to have multi-vector foreign policy to connect with all centers of power to have more political autonomy and more resilient economies. But in Europe, we see the US effectively pressuring all the European countries to disconnect from rival centers of power and become excessively dependent on the US. Obviously,

good for America, but not so good for us. And when we de-industrialize, they even come over and as you mentioned, cannibalizing the industries on the continent. But I was curious, though, because you mentioned some things that Germany has done right, which is not sending the Taurus missiles. But I wanted to ask about the call by Schultz, because one of the things which have perplexed me a bit is as we keep escalating the war against Russia, you know, with all this long-range missiles, I have failed often to do this as see the purpose because once one escalates military tensions,

usually you have a political off-ramp, pressuring the adversary to make some political constant sessions. But we haven't really had any diplomacy with Russia in almost three years now. So I never really see the purpose of escalating when there's no off-ramp. I'm just curious, to what extent was this call by Schultz's successful, what was intended to do, what do you think it achieved? Was this a way of opening up diplomatic line as well, or is this unclear to Germany as well? Of course, I mean, I was not in the room when the call happened.

I cannot tell you what exactly they talked about, Schultz and Putin, but what I can see is that we are kind of. currently witnessing how the leading power in NATO, the United States, flanked by the United Kingdom, flanked by France, is running the risk of a third world war by allowing Ukraine to use this long-range weapons to attack Russia. And as a NATO member state, Schaulz is of course also responsible for what the other NATO member states are doing. So this is an

escalation of the NATO's proxy war against Russia with the aim of ruining Russia like the German foreign minister Babuk once said. So the call was right.

I think it was way too late to call. I mean, we are not in war with Russia. Russia did. didn't attack Germany. So what's the point not to have a dialogue, not to have diplomatic relations. Diplomatic relations and the international affairs, they are an achievement of civilization.

Because, you know, and you cut diplomatic relations with another country because you are going to war against this country. So we are not in war normally. I mean, of course, the German, our, you know, our genius foreign minister, Annalena her babo once she said she declared the war against Russia by a misunderstanding but we are not officially in war so I think it was now it was really about time to talk directly to the Russian administration but at the end of the day I can see even if I believe that the German Chancellor wants to de-escalate and

wants to have a diplomatic solution, I have to see the other way of the coin. The other way of the coin is now running the risk of a third world war, running a risk of a nuclear war against Russia. Because the decision by outgoing President Biden to send the attackers to Ukraine to Ukraine, is now mirrored in Germany by the debate of sending Taos missiles. And we have a very big war coalition of the Christian Democrats, like Friedrich Mears, the former BlackRock. We call him Mr. BlackRock. We have the Greens with the candidate Robert Habek and Annalena Berbock,

and we have the liberals with Christian Lindner, they are in favor of sending the Taurus missiles. So we are going to face a very hard time now with the electoral campaign till 23rd of February. And I do have to say, Chancellor Schultz is not very credible in this respect, because when we see the past, in the past, he always falls down, fall over, falls over, saying in the beginning, no to sending the Leopart two tanks for example, and then when the US pushed him,

he said, okay, we're going to send the battle tanks to Ukraine. Now he is saying, we say no to the Taurus because he is running, he is trying to run as a peace chancellor for the electoral campaign, because he knows it's not very popular, to send the Taos, as I said, the vast majority in Germany is against sending Taubus to Ukraine. And now he is running as a chancellor candidate. And I don't see a reason why he should not fall over again after the 23rd of February.

We will see how serious they are, like Olaf Schultz, after the 23rd of February. My problem is just, you know, we see actually on the battleground in Ukraine, NATO lost the war, the proxy war against Russia. And but they do not want to accept this and they want to go all in, apparently, because now they are discussing to sending NATO troops to Ukraine, which is a strategy of President Zelensky. President Zelensky always wanted to get NATO involved as NATO alliance in this war, directly in war against Ukraine. And this is what they are now discussing, and they don't care about the lives they are risking there. I mean, more than one million, according to the Washington Post, died in this battle in this war. And as I can see, whether Biden, no Macron, no Sama, none of them, they care about the lives they are risking there.

They just want to go there and fight this war till the last Ukrainian is dying. And even then, they are thinking about sending their own troops and own soldiers. And this is just a disaster. Can I actually ask a few questions about the election and the political? political situation, because if I can just go back to that trip that I did to Germany, and there's meetings with young people, now this is an area of Western Germany, which is traditionally Social Democrat. I got the impression that the people there were very, very disaffected with the Social, the SPD, and with Chancellor Schultz. They seem to agree very much with many of the

points that you are making and that your party is making. Do you feel that your party has a prospect of breaking through in these regions in Western Germany? Now, I ask this question because, of course, in Britain, where I am, we still think of your party as being mostly focused in Eastern Germany. But to come back to what I said, in the people. amongst the people which I was meeting, and there was quite a large number of people, I would have thought that your message would be a receptive one.

Do you feel you're gaining traction there? And that this is, I apologize with the next question, but I do want to answer it because they're going to be people who are going to bring it up with me all the time. What do you say to those people in Britain, like, say, the Guardian newspaper, which refer to your party as far right? because this has now become standard. They peddle it all the time. Perhaps you can just respond to that quickly.

Yeah, maybe I can advise the Guardian that they should decide themselves far right or far left. You know, some of them, Washington Post or the New York Times, they call us sometimes far left, the Guardian far right. I think they should, you know, decide whether or not. But to say we do have in social politics, I mean, economy, social welfare state policies, we do have a clear left stance on this. Also, clear anti-militaristic stance on the foreign policy, security policy. But in some issues like the cultural, how is that, cultural,

issues, we do have a more conservative stance, like against this LGBTQ stuff, the woke insanity policies. So we are against all these things. That's why people call us conservative or right. And we have to, we believe that Germany cannot burden the refugee, more refugees. and more migration, we have to stop the illegal migration to Germany because Germany is a welfare state. And everyone who comes here and lives here and has the right to stay here,

they have the right to get a social minimum. And if everybody is coming and has no right to stay, but is staying and getting the minimum, the social minimum. So the society, they don't accept it anymore. And if you do not want to support extreme rights or Nazism, racism and xenophobia and also the rise of aggression to refugees or migrants, you have to stop this flow. You have to stop it. Because a welfare state, a national state, and we are in favor of national sovereign states in the European Union, we do not favor this idea of the federal republic of Europe without borders and without sovereigities and so on.

We think this is a poison to a social welfare state. You cannot afford the social welfare state if you do not have the national welfare state. if you do not have the national borders and national laws. So if you do not want this rising of far-right extremism and xenophobia, you have to follow the majority of the people in Germany. And I think this is one of the very extreme democratic rights of the people. You know, democracy means that the majority of the people is, deciding and the will of the majority will be realized and not of minorities.

And so this is a part of democracy. And the other thing is with the elections, well, we will see. I mean, we are not just the eastern part of Germany party. We had some elections there, state elections, in Turingen, in Saxon and in Brandenburg, yes, and we have been very successful, but we had the European-wide parliamentary elections as well in June, and we have been very successful in this election in the west of Germany, in the western part. So we will see the problem is we are facing a massive attack by mainstream media. We are facing massive attack by all the other parties, because all the other

parties in Germany, in the German parliament, they are part of the toxic political mix of armament of economic sanctions against Russia or deliveries of weapons. You know, the far-right party, RFD, is in favor of re-armament, like Donald Trump said, not only 2% of the GDP, what means 90 billion euro per year for military. military and the army. Trump says now 3% of the GDP we should spend for military. That means 135 billion euro for Germany and the far right, but also the Greens and the Christian Democrats and the liberals,

they are in favor of this. Then you have the economic sanctions, the economic warfare against Russia, which all the social impacts to your own. society and economy. So the Christian Democrats, the Social Democrats, the liberals, the Greens, and including the left party, they are in favor of the sanctions. The left party even wants heavier sanctions to Russia. They also say we need an oil embargo against Russia, where in the Baltic Sea, the German

Marine warships. they should control the oil embargo against the nuclear power, Russia. I mean, they're insane, really, seriously insane. And the thing with the weapon deliveries, Christian Democrats, liberals, greens, and the Social Democrats, and parts of the left party are in favor of this weapon deliveries to Ukraine. So we are the only party, which is against all these toxic political, And that's why they're attacking us. And that's why, of course, they are attacking us also because we achieved in our negotiations for building the government in Brandenburg and in Turinga, for example, the first time that this party said we are in favor of diplomacy and negotiations regarding the Ukraine war instead of weapon deliveries.

or first time ever in history in a coalition agreement, it's said that we have criticism on the stationing of U.S. missiles on German soil, what they are planning to do in 2006 with the hypersonic missiles of the U.S. I mean, this is the first time in history, and that's why in the international media, they consider this, they realize this, that it's the danger, of course, for their policies, for their geopolitical aims and goals. And I hope that in the West the people see this serious, more comfortable policies regarding our own security. and our own sovereignty, that they can vote for us in the 23rd of February elections. And just to add one other thing, because you mentioned the young people in Germany. I want to give you the hint regarding a very actual study by Shell in Germany. they all always do every two years a study about young people in Germany. And according to this study,

81% of young people in Germany, they are scared of a war. And it was really increasingly rising this because the last time in the last study, it was about between 60%, a lot of people, young people, they see this danger of escalation and they fear the war

because they see in the schools and the universities in universities you have even more and more propaganda for the German Bundeswehr and for recruiting the young people and this gives me hope that young people even

see the serious danger we are facing and do not want this war policies. I'm going to finish there. Thank you very much. It's Glenn. It's interesting. This is what I mean, the huge shift in Germany

because a lot of this was quite unthinkable until a few years ago. That is, we see now German tanks rolling into Kursk on Russian territory. We see foreign ministry giving its support to genocide effectively against Palestinians. We see missiles which are going to be placed in Germany, which would be able to strike Russia quite with almost no warnings at all.

And none of this appears to be controversial anymore. Meanwhile, suggesting diplomacy is now become suddenly a hard right or hard left issue. It's just very different, strange to see. Anyways, I just had one last question. I was wondering how the EU and Germany, how that relationship is, how do you see that moving forward? Because, again, I think the EU has been, well, I think many reasonably see it as a source of stability as a pillar for Germany for decades. You know, it's a way of organizing the continent through centuries. We always try to organize Europe either through war or diplomacy.

the EU appears to have had some successes, but again, it also is changing. I think it's very hard to deny this, even if you look at the foreign policy chief now with Kallas, she doesn't believe that diplomacy is necessary with adversaries such as Russia. She talked about breaking it up into smaller countries. She doesn't seem to mind what's being done in Palestine.

I was just wondering, how does, how do you suggest that Germany deal with the EU because it's kind of staring a lot of pulse, it seems. But we see when the Germans go to Beijing, they seem to want to have some trade relations when the EU go there, then they try to shut it down, it seems. So how do you suggest changing a relationship with EU without throwing perhaps away the baby with the bathwater? Well, that's a good point.

I mean, for Germany, the European Union's disadvantages are increasing at the moment. So the reason for this is that the European Commission now sees itself as an aid agency or a branch office of the U.S. administration, we have to say. If the U.S. administration imposes now punitive tariffs on Chinese cars, you can be sure that the European Commission will follow quickly. And even if the economy of the largest net contributor, Germany, goes to the dogs in the process. So after all, it must be expected that China will enact countermeasures sooner or later that have potential to completely destroy Germany's automotive, the car industry.

and Germany is also being outvoted in the Council of the European Union. So a minimum of solidarity, a minimum level of solidarity is no longer existing within Europe, we have to say. And so it is to be expected that as a result of the European Union's ever more intensive subservience, as I said, with colors, to the interest of U.S. corporations, the centrifugal forces within the European Union will increase even further. And they started already. And one of the very good examples for that is, for example, the budget, the gap in the budget totaling 174.4 billion euro in 2000. 23 and just because of this European Union commissions subservients so and and I think we as as Germans we have to we have to force the European Union you know we have a let me say

in that way we have the unipolar world under the The hegemony of the United States is in a decline, and this is irreversible. They cannot stop this. And there is a multipolar world in the making. And we as Europeans and Germans, we have to ask ourselves, where is our place in the world, when it's going to be a multipolar world. And we do believe, as Zaravanchi, Alliance, it is very important to build a European pole in this multi-polar world to fulfill the

interests and the needs of the majority of the people in Europe. This is very important because the alternative is to get down with the Hejanomon, the U.S. And the US is, you know, they are in a decline and they are just desperately trying to do everything to stop this development. But I do believe it's irreversible. And I do think, for example, we should try to get in more dialogue with the BRIC states. I mean, the BRIC states, there are about 30 countries now, the biggest economy. output in the world compared to G7. They are representing the most of the people of the world.

So we have to have good alliances and good relations to the Spick States community. But of course, also have to the US. But the problem with the European Union is, as I said, They are understanding themselves as an aid agency, as a branch office of the U.S. administration. And it's actually the total opposite of the European idea. The idea of Europe was to be independent, to build an own power for your own security, because the United States is very far away from the European continent. And our European continent, we have to see that we can get along with our neighbors.

And Russia is a neighbor. Russia is part of Europe. We cannot change the, you know, you can't change the policy, but you cannot change the geography. And we have to find a way to build a security architecture, a security order which includes Russia because we cannot have security in Europe, on the European continent, without or against Russia. And we have to find a way for our own economical growth and our own social welfare to build a European pool to get along with the BRIC states as soon as possible. Well, we have unfortunately run out of time, so I just want to thank you so much for your time.

Do you have any final comment or question, Alexander? No, I don't just to say thank you to serve him for coming and answering our questions.