The Duran Podcast - Militaristic EU - Clare Daly, Mick Wallace, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Militaristic EU - Clare Daly, Mick Wallace, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

Hi everyone, Glenn Dyson here and I'm joined by Alexander McCurris and Claire Daly and Mick Wallace. So Claire and Mick are both members of the EU Parliament and currently up for re-election. Welcome. Thanks very much. So I follow some of the discussions and also statements coming out of the EU Parliament at times. And I must admit, I find the strong consensus in the EU. to be sometimes disturbing, especially during wars. In regards to Ukraine, it seems that Iran feels it's a great idea to chant that weapons are the path to peace,

reject diplomacy for more than two years as hundreds of thousands of young men perish, and we continue with these big steps towards nuclear war and challenge it. You're accused of being under Putin payroll. In Gaza, we see that support of horrific war crimes and possibly even genocide seems to be normalized. And again, those who challenge it might be simply labeled anti-Semite terrorist sympathizer and Hamas supporters. So again, in this political culture of consensus, I guess we have two MEPs standing out with vocal opposition, which is Claire Daly and Mick Wallace.

So with your radical suggestions, such as restoring diplomacy, looking for peaceful solutions. So I want to ask, though, since you are both up for. election now. How do you see this EU election being any different than before or is it more important, especially given the EU seems to be taking a bit of a different direction than it had in the past when things were then, was saying to be a civilian power, ethical power. The language now appears to staring more towards being a geopolitical power, a great power almost. How is all of this relevant do you think for this upcoming election? Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely critical. I mean, we see the backdrop to this election now

with Ursula von der Leyen there only a week or 10 days ago, announcing that when she comes back and it's a when, not an if, probably, you know, that she is going to turbocharge defence. That's her priority now. We know that we're one year away from a defence union and nothing will stop that. We're one year away from the establishment of a rapid deployment capacity force, which is a standing troops combat ready of initially 5,000, multi coming from all the countries, land, sea and air, ready to go into environments, including non-permissive environments, in which Joseph Borell has said means boots on the ground.

So you're totally right that we see a total ratcheting up of tension, of militarism. money has been taking from budgets on the environment and transport, on health, and all of the things that would actually make people's lives better, and it's been put into defence. So we saw in the last Parliament that most of the majority were very much on board that. They think that the solution to Europe's problems is more militarisation, that the reason why we've problems is that we haven't defended ourselves enough. It's utter lunacy, of course, the opposite is the case,

because the war in Ukraine took place against the backdrop of a much, much more accelerated militarization by Europe. So militarism begets militarism and the military industrial complex goes laughing all its way to the bank. They're establishing now a European Union defense industrial strategy as well. So the next commission, they talked the last time about the last commission being a green commission. It wasn't. But in any case, that's another story. but the next one is going to be a war commission, a defense as a not defense,

but a militarist commission, I think. Yeah, I mean, von der Leyen says she wants a special commissioner of her defense next time round. And as we know, defense was called, before the Second World War, there used to be a minister for war, and that became a minister for defense because obviously war became a less attractive word. But that's what it is for von der Leyen. She wants a commissioner for war. And yet,

we have Thierry Breton, he's a commissioner that has hands on with the industry of military in Europe. And he says now he wants, he was a bit taken aback that that von der Leyen said she wanted a commissioner for defense, given that he thought he was that, even though that wasn't the title, right? So I was at the meeting where he said, I thought I was doing that, you know. And he's actually, he has envisaged a European defense fund of $100 billion. Now, I mean, this is money that would come from the multi-financial framework,

which we agree every seven years. Now, in the past, and according to the treaties, no money could come from the multi-financial framework and go directly, to military hardware or any element of defence. But they've literally moved to gold posts without having to revisit the treaties.

And now we have European citizens' money lying in the pockets of the military industrial complex. And we've had people from the military industrial complex advising us how we should do that and why we should be putting billions into it.

Absolutely. Can I just say, I mean, the European Union started as in the economic union. It was supposed to be about the welfare of people in Europe. One of the reasons why people in Britain were won over the Labour Party in Britain, the Labour movement in Britain when it existed, was won over to the European Union back in the late 1980s and early 1990s was because it was supposed to be all about workers' rights, improving protections in the workplace, whether it ever really was. I'm not going to get into a discussion. But that was how it was how it was now we're not hearing any about that anything about that anymore it's all about militarization building up military industries establishing funds and by the way i completely agree with you i don't see anything in the treaties that provides for the creation of anything like this in fact i would say clearly the treaties don't but that's my view anyway none of all of that and all is this is happening at a time when living standards of people

across Europe are under growing pressure when workers' actual rights are being eroded pretty much in every workplace. And when health systems and social security systems and all the things that people have relied upon are coming under growing pressure still. Now, just to say, there is an election, you're both MPs, you're both up for re-election in that. election. Now, one of the reasons I am very keen to see both of you re-elected is firstly because you've both taken a strong stand against this militarisation and, you know, talk of war, you know, a war commission. I mean, how could anybody talk about something like that with a straight face and without any sense of embarrassment? But also, I mean, probably because both of you have, you know, are on the left, if I can say that.

You actually talk about these things that people worry about, erosion of workers' rights, a withering away of welfare things, all of those sort of things that I think most people in Europe really worry about. And one of my big worries about European Parliament elections is that I do think people generally in most European states are particularly engaged. in them because the European Parliament is an important institution, but one that people are not usually involved in. And so what tends to happen is that the kind of people who get elected to the European Parliament are those who are very connected with the political machines that exist in the various countries, who, of course, will then deliver the votes that the political machine in Brussels also wants. So, in some sort of.

exactly a question, but first of all, do you agree with my overall analysis of the situation? I think there are many people who think that because we're under so much pressure in Europe, the elections this year are going to deliver a different outcome. I don't believe that. And the second is, do you agree with me? This is a bizarre thing to be doing at a time when living standards are under so much pressure across Europe and when so many people are worried about other things, about their jobs, their livelihoods, how are they going to bring up their families, what kind of protections they have in the workplace, what the health and social security systems are going to be, and other topics as well.

No, absolutely. I would completely agree. And I think most people would completely agree as well. And interestingly, in the last European Parliament elections, I think the turnout was less than 30% in about seven member states. In some countries, they're compulsory voting. So it was a bit higher. But that disconnect would be enormous in countries like Ireland where the media don't cover any of the work or the decisions that are made. They just repeat the rhetoric. They just waive the European Union flag. And then they call anybody who stands up against that a Putin puppet and all the rest. And that's repeated and repeated so that you don't have a critique of the policies that are being engaged in.

You don't have an examination of where all this public money is going and the lunacy of war. Instead, you have sloganeering, smearing. And it's become now a sort of a mantra of European politics that the idea of an exchange of views is becoming outdated. They claim to be in a battle of democracy against authoritarianism, but are becoming incredibly authoritarian in that, where a dissenting voice is immediately smeared,

where when people protest, they're driven, off the streets like in Germany or they're called anti-Semites or Russian spies or whatever it is. And as you say, the real issues, the bread and butter issues, the reason it was really interesting, the UN special rapporteur on housing said, listen, lads, if you want a reason for why the barite is growing, it's because you haven't built any houses. And that's totally right. And those issues aren't being discussed while they ratchet up the geopolitical tensions or use the migration issue to divert and divide people into getting all stressed about that. And meanwhile, the boys who are pocketing all the cash

are not being examined. And I mean, the project was ever so. I mean, it was always a neoliberal project to develop a new sort of Europe in the interest of big business. That's copper fastened into the treaties. Where all the lovely stuff you were talking about, which was sold to the people of going on your holidays

and being able to have your kids study abroad and work abroad. and all that nice stuff, workers, rights, social progress. These things were won by people organizing in their countries. And yeah, maybe they had the odd directive, but they followed. They never led on that. But what we're seeing now is the mask slipping. And European values being the old values of colonialism.

And I think that is something that a lot of people are seeing through Gaza, and it's woken them up big time. Yeah. I mean, we feel that there's probably a deliberate effort to actually make the people feel that the political process doesn't serve their interests and doesn't care about them anyway. And it kind of makes them kind of...

It's just... A lot of people are really frustrated and fed up with politics. They see truth. And we don't have a mainstream media that's remotely interested in explaining, I would say, for example, how the European institutions work, be it Parliament, Parliament, Commissioner,

or council. And we don't have a government that's interested in giving information either. I mean, sometimes when we have a referendum, and we've had a number of them, we often have referendums because of the nature of our constitution. But when we do have a referendum, there's an obligation on them to put out information, right? When this is never done for the European Union elections, now, Claire was talking about just over 30% in many seven European countries the last time, there will be about.

50% in Ireland because we have local elections the same day, right? Without the local elections, obviously the percentage would be lower. But the problem with 50% is, we're independence with no party machine, we just work with a couple of friends and do our best.

But the others, our competitors have huge machines. They spend a fortune and they throw huge numbers out to have the money and they have the mainstream media to help them along the way. And that, the mainstream media is a big factor.

I mean, Ireland got its so-called freedom from the Brits 1003 years ago. And we've had either Fina Fowl or Fianna Gale every day since. Now, that's scary. That's kind of qualifies as a bit of a dictatorship, right? And the reason that there's always been one of them in power, despite the fact that they've been horrifically disappointing in so many ways for so long, the media helps them to stay there and it helps them

just to promote their message a whole lot whereas we get ostracized we get them as you say I mean because we wanted peace we didn't support Russia invading the place we condemned it despite the fact that it was provoked as Stoltenberg brazenly told us

at our Foreign Affairs Committee he laughed about the fact that he provoked the war because he said that we're talking to the Russians in December 2021 and that he said the Russians wanted Ukraine neutrality back to the mainst agreement, an end of NATO's Israel expansion and he says there are conditions for not invade in Ukraine and he said, and he laughed and he says

well obviously we didn't agree to that he says right so look at us but anyways we fought for peace from day one we wanted diplomacy and dialogue to commence and what we were written off by the mainstream media as Putin puppets because we wanted peace and yet, just to show you the distance and the disconnect between the people of Europe

and the political class, I mean, within six months of the war starting, over 80% of the people of Europe were wanting peace rather than continue to punish Russia. There was a huge survey done by the European Council of Foreign Relations, which is actually EU body, but it was a very expansive and at that time

they did that only four months after the war and starting and over 70% had already wanting peace instead of continuing to punish Russia and that became 80% within another two months yet twice that year

in the first year of the war declared myself put in an amendment to the Ukraine resolution and our amendment called on the EU to maximize its potential to commence dialogue on diplomacy

with a view to ending the war and bringing about peace. Over 80% of the MEPs voted against that. They didn't want the war to stop. They didn't want peace. They wanted the war to continue. And if people think that's scary, six weeks ago in Strasbourg in April, the last plenary in April,

we had a vote on placing an embargo on EU member states to stop the flow of weapons from EU member states to Israel while the war continued. Four out of five MEPs opposed that. They four out of five MEPs wanted weapons to continue to go to Israel to kill Palestinian. We're in a difficult place. One thing Claire just mentioned is slogan airing. It really sticks out because when the EU was able to deliver proper economic benefits to all its member states,

This could be a foundation for unity, but it feels often now the EU becomes more and more dependent on this slogan-eering. Because I noticed that with the EU debate already actually from the 2000s, when everything was spoken about being for or against the EU, being more Europe or less Europe. So you had the, you know, for example, the Russians, they didn't like the fact that Europe meant moving dividing lines towards their border and excluding them from Europe. the British didn't like that the sovereign powers would go from elected parliaments to the EU bureaucracy. The Hungarians wanted to restore some of their, well, traditional value. So everyone had some different ideas what Europe should be. But instead, we took this contested concept and just said, well, this is Europe. And if you don't support what we're doing, then you're anti-European.

More Europe has to be the solution. So what seems to be proper issues, which we should have spoken about, having debates about, was just brushed away with these slogans. And it feels we're doing the same in the current wars. Because we're saying, well, we have to be pro-Ukrainian. We have to support Ukraine. But what does it mean? Topling their government, suppressing older elections when the Ukrainians vote for peace platforms,

allowing the U.S. to run it as a colony, pushing them to do this offensive, which even the Ukrainians didn't really want to do. It's just we have the slogans, which doesn't really mean anything. And we do the same now with Israel, of course, where we say, oh, we have to support the right for self-defense. But who's self-defense? The one occupying the Palestinians, but also shouldn't the Palestinians understand? So we don't actually discuss what these terms mean.

We just come with these slogans, which everyone seemingly want to agree with. But anyways, that was my question. My question was about Ireland, because it's a very unique country in Europe in the sense that it's very independent-minded. They didn't really, we wanted to avoid some of this militarism. And of this post-Cold War year, we've been building, it's primarily been built on two pillars, which is NATO and the EU. And for the Irish, the EU was the main pillar to grab onto us.

This was sold as being a civilian, normative, non-military power throughout at least the 90s and most of the 2000s. But how is society they're reacting now if we're now going to have. make the EU this military machine. And I'm also guessing, is it the French who's pushing most? I mean, if it was, the EU was an economic club. The leadership would be cemented with the Germans. If you make it military, I guess it would have to pounce the mantle to some extent to the French. How are the Irish addressing this?

Or are they starting to accept militaristic Ireland as well? Well, I mean, there's a lot of changes on the top. and there's some changes in the middle. And I suppose when it's been tested and traditionally there's been a huge affinity amongst the population to our neutrality, people really like it. They like the idea that when our defence forces went abroad,

they could only do so under UN mandate. We were the peacekeepers. We didn't take sides. We talked to everybody and people like that. Now, it was always a hypocritical scam in some ways in that while the people believed that we were neutral, and in name we were, during all of that period, they allowed the US military transit

through our airport on its way to theatres of war in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq. And I mean, when we were in the Irish Parliament, we had hundreds of questions to these ministers and they'd try and tell us that there was nothing on the planes. They came every day, like hundreds of thousands of troops came through, but they were just transiting and they weren't doing anything.

They were just going their holidays, like, you know, and there was no weapons on, because the Americans told them there wasn't any, and they accepted their words. So that scam was going on, but they couldn't be blatant about it. And even recently, when they've tried to move, and our government is very Europhile,

they're the same types of people who, in the past, bent the knee. When Britain was in power here, they're the same who bend the knee to US corporations to come in, the multinationals for all the jobs and the money, and, oh my God, what would we do without the Americans? So they're the same type of people who do that.

But look, I think Dave have tried to undermine and push away from that. But even against the backdrop of the massive propaganda of the war in Ukraine, people still said no neutrality. Now, they're trying to scare people day and night that the Russians are coming, that we need to defend. We can't be infantile anymore. It's just not in our interest. We've got to grow up, man up. We haven't the luxury being neutral in this very dangerous world. We've got to cop on. We're not spending enough. And some people, I've actually had one or two people raise that with me this time. Normally in Ireland, if you said,

how are we on neutrality, you had to be the biggest most outspoken person on neutrality, which we are anyway. But a couple of people this time said to me, no, I don't agree with you. We're really unsafe. So there's a move by the Irish establishing, and we're more and more in. So they'll say, NATO, God, we're not going to

join NATO. No, no, no. We'll never join NATO. But we just want to cooperate with our European peers, but the European Union have made it clear that NATO is the EU. There was some Russian ships were engaged in exercises about 200 miles or 200 kilometers from our coastline there a while back. And there was uproar about this, right? And this was like, now there's not a word about the fact that NATO ships are around the place morning, noon and night, right?

And that we actually work with the Brits, especially on air surveillance and all, right? So anyway, the idea, I mean, I had this, this argument came up in a radio interview that I was doing the other day as well. And it was put to be, oh, we have to build an army of her own. We can't be dependent. Europe can't be dependent on America anymore. Ireland can't be dependent on Britain anymore. So it's, you know, we've got to build our own. And I said, well, there's no one going, there's no one more to the interest invading us.

And if they did, if we, if we, we've got to. If we actually formed an army, we wouldn't be able to form an army that would keep anybody out anywhere. It's a completely useless exercise. It doesn't make any sense. But the scaremongering about Russia, what's in the media in Ireland is very strong. But you have the same scaremongering coming from the elites in the European institutions. Now, traditionally foreign affairs was really the area of the council. We have three institutions.

We have the council, with the parliament, we have the commission. The parliament is the only ones directly elected. And as you said, okay, an important institution without being a powerful. But it is important because it gives us a platform to raise advice and to challenge the elites who are serving the elites of Europe and not serving the citizens of Europe in the manner that they should. So it gives us an opportunity

by being in the parliament to challenge them. The Commission is not elected. They're appointed by the big groups. And the council obviously is made up of the 27 member states and ministers come to the council meetings. For example, it was a foreign affairs meeting. The minister for foreign affairs

when the 27 member states would come. And they would have a discussion. And most of the talks would be in secret as well. But the truth is that traditionally the member states at council were very conscious of money. And they didn't want to do anything that would cost a country money at home. Exports in particular, right? You wouldn't want to be hurting exports, right? So they generally tended to do things sensibly rather than think in a geopolitical fashion.

But that's changing. And there's been huge pressure on the council. members to actually kind of look at the bigger picture from their perspective. We're under threat. It's Ukraine now. Next to be Poland. Next to be the Baltics. I mean, it's so irrational. It's not funny, right? But they are, and when we challenge that, we are accused of disinformation. And the Georgians who have just, are trying to introduce the foreign agents bill are being told,

oh, that's so on European. Oh, my God. The Georgians are looking for a little bit of transparency on how their NGOs are being funded. And anyone that's getting more than 20% are funded from outside the country should declare it. And they're not even asked them to be dissolved.

They're asked them to be transparent and admit where they're getting the money because most of it is coming from the Europeans and Americans. But yet, it's called the Russian law, despite the fact the Americans already have one. and the Europeans are burst at the seams to bring in their own to deal with the threat of Russia as well. So, I mean, all this rhetoric,

they actually can't back it up and it doesn't make any sense. But sadly, you know, with the mainstream media support, it does have an impact. And some people think, oh, God, maybe the Russians will come. And so it does create a fear. And if those people that are worried about the Russians coming, remember then that oh sure we're Russian spies

and we're Putin's puppets so I mean it's a vote for us to be dangerous and the big problem with a 50% turnout is that you have to establish parties like Pinafall and Fina Gael and Labour traditional parties in Ireland

their hardcore will be in that 50% they'll come out so the bigger the turnover the bigger to turnout the better for us because all I have people Sadly, with politics in general across the world, especially in Europe, a big problem is that the young people are not voting and the poor are not voting. And they're the ones who can make the difference.

Absolutely. And that is entirely correct. And one almost wonders whether the current structure of politics and the current structure of the socio-economic system is almost designed to make that happen in the sense that you really want. to create a system which doesn't deliver for poor people, for young people, so as to disincentivising them, disincentivising from voting, which of course, thereby perpetuates and consolidates the system. Now, anyway, let's just a point, a number of points I want to make. I mean, you're both independents, and that's absolutely right. That's very important. And by the way, Ireland has a long history of people who are political independence. If you know anything at all, about Irish history, you will know how important that is and how the fact that there have been

all of these people who've been able to come forward, and that's moved, that that was absolutely central to Ireland ultimately achieving its independence from Britain. But can I just say, your independence, you are independence. You're also, in my opinion, well within a certain tradition in Irish politics. And it's a tradition which achieved Irish independence, Irish freedom, Irish neutrality being very much a part of Irish freedom in the sense that if Ireland had not been neutral, it would have been an alliance with Britain. And that would have created all kinds of connections which Irish people who were breaking away from Britain didn't want to be in. Do people in Ireland understand that if Ursula Fondalions' vision of a war commission

and a defence minister and a budget are created, then Irish neutrality dies, because Ireland is going to find itself not just part of an alliance, because it's a lot just part of an alliance, because the EU is more than an alliance, it is an economic union. It's got its central institutions, which are very different from NATO's institutions, at least in theory, I mean, you would have decisions being made about not just Irish foreign policy, or least foreign policy that determines Ireland, but also conceivably war policy that might affect people in Ireland in all sorts of ways

if it is ever allowed to happen. I would have thought that anybody in Ireland aware of Irish history, aware of all that happened for Ireland to be free, I'm sorry if I'm sounding a bit romantic and sentimental here, would understand that this is an extremely dangerous thing and that the island that will come out on the other side of it will not be the kind of...

of Ireland that it fought to become for so long in a struggle, by the way, which in the north of Ireland still continues. But just asking these questions. Yeah. Do you want to take that one? People would be shocked and horrified and would be aware that it's kind of alien to our history. were they to be educated properly enough about the scale of what's going on? That's our first biggest problem is we have been three weeks in the campaign where more than the halfway mark

and I haven't heard that discussion being aired anywhere. It's the key discussion facing the new commission. It has not featured in any debate or anywhere yet. So there is a huge problem and all the points Mick made

about the mainstream media is a part of it. And I think then what we see is a capture of power by these, on paper, they're inheritors of those people who fought for freedom, but they've actually flipped and gone full circle. And they're just totally servile to the European project. It's a feature that we see across Europe, maybe less so in Ireland, but we notice that in some of the other countries that the MEPs who are being elected,

for example, they come, they represent parties, but they're educated in these European schools. They don't speak their own language when they speak. They speak English with kind of an American accent. and they want to impress the bureaucrats in the bubble, not represent the people from whatever tradition they come from. So any debate then about Europe is seen to be, you have to follow that line. It's the same point Glenn was making about dissent

and cancel culture and all of this. So we're an embarrassment and a disgrace because we did something different. We stood against the herd, and that was so shameful for Maryland, according to the political establishment. But actually in our history, it was absolutely in line.

with the way in which Irish people behave, to stand up, to be neutral, to put the hand out to everybody, work with everybody, and we would talk to people all across. And we have been all across Europe, and in every single country, including the ones that the European Union tell us,

oh, Sweden has changed. Now Sweden has joined NATO. Well, I've been at meetings of hundreds of people in Sweden who are saying, well, lucky ye that you get a choice because we didn't get a choice and we don't want this, and it's making our country more unsafe.

In Germany, in Austria, in Greece, in Italy. We've been at these means, and everybody is the same. They're all just completely disconnected. So, I mean, I think if people did know and they would rebel because our Taunished, our second in command, is moving now to get away at the same time as we've a rapid deployment capacity policy force been set up next year, which is an EU army,

small one at the start, but then it's in place, a defence union. He's abolished an air triple lock, which is the means by which, Irish troops serve overseas. He wants to allow that to happen without a UN mandate. So it's not a fantasy to say that in a year or two's time, Irish men and women in the defence forces could be going overseas to fight for German fossil fuel interests in Africa or French ones.

And coming home in a body bag, and I can tell you, in the context of our history, that would be an absolute game changer. But people aren't aware of it. if someone if anyone in Ireland had heard that we were actually going to move away from

the UN and go towards this new version move away from the UN Charter and start looking to the rules based international order which the Western powers make up us to go along people would have been horrified

10 or 15, 20 years ago horrified and they find it my God what's going on? What's going on with the UN. Listen, the UN is very, very far from the power fight, but right now it's as good as we've got and we've got the UN Charter is our Bible and we should adhere to it. And sadly,

the big Western powers for many years had been ignoring it but paid lip service to it. Now they're getting tired paying the lip service and they're moving away from it brazenly and they're trying to drag plenty with them. Now, that's the struggle for them. When I suppose the European Defence Fund

that was dreamed up first around 2015 and a panel was set up and over 80% of the people on the panel that were going to advise the commission about how we should progress around this area over 80% of them came from the industry it was a horror show

and lo and behold they recommended that we start spending billions on building a European defence fund because problems are coming. Now, we all know that at this stage there had been

the maiden coup in Ukraine in 2014, the Americans admitted spending $5 billion organizing a regime change. We know now that NATO were in there advising the troops

and training them and whatever. But things have changed since then. And obviously, Ukraine has been a stick to batter Russia with and that was

the plan. Hasn't worked out quite as well as the light. But the lie about Ukraine is still there and they're still refusing to tell the truth about it. We have a situation now where promoting a war that was unwinnable. We'd have had a nuclear war before Russia would have lost it because winning to the EU was also taken Crimea back. That had been a nuclear war before Russia lost Crimea, right? And yet we continued pouring billions with arms into the Ukraine to make sure the war didn't stop. Meanwhile, they reckon now that close to 300,000 working class kids in Ukraine are dead. For what? We were colonizing the place. I was on the file for the Ukraine facility.

This is 50 billion, the latest 50 billion. Initially, it was all about reconstruction. And I was on the file of one of seven, one from each, there's seven groups in the parliament, and one person is picked from each group to go to the meetings and tease it out, right? And I said, you're pumping billions in on one end helping to continue to destroy the place, I said.

You're talking about rebuilding it at the same time? I said, that's not a good business plan, I said, to be building and destroying at the same time, and it's an awful lot of money, and who's going to pay the money, right? So, anyway, eventually the 50 billion was passed. and there's less talk about reconstruction

but more about keeping the show on the road now right but okay but who's paying for in actual fact one third of the money is a grant two thirds is a loan right and I said to them now if these guys genuinely care about Ukraine give them all give it all to me a grant

but tell the European citizens that their money is going to it but I said giving them two thirds of it in debt is another debt trap. I said they can't pay back the money they already owe. They're never going to pay this back. So what you're doing is you're colonizing the place. You're going to own as you are.

And now as if that's not bad enough, when the IMF gave them a loan in 2021, one of the conditions of the loan was that Ukraine changed its land purchase arrangement. At that time, foreigners couldn't buy land. So that was dropped.

So then large corporations from Europe and America could buy lots of 25,000 acres at a time, 10,000 hectares. At this stage, European corporations have bought more land in Western Ukraine than the Russians have taken on the east side. We're saddling with a debt. It's a debt trap that they're never going to be able to pay back. We're going to own the place. What the Russians don't own, we'll own. Right. And Ukraine's sovereignty is a long, long piece away.

And still, and still, we don't mind continuing to throw working-class Ukrainians into the meat grinder. Do they care about them? And all the politicians that voted to keep the war going, did any of them go over there and fight? Did any of them send their kids over? They didn't? It's interesting. The collapse on neutrality, I guess the Irish would feel it's stronger than others given a history of neutrality. But you see this across Europe, from Scandinavia, Switzerland,

I mean, across the board, neutrality became not something positive, but something to be shamed. I remember when the United States, they went in to remove Khan in this regime change in Pakistan. The American ambassador, they had called it aggressive neutrality not to take a stand. Same as Stoltenberg now, saying, you know, we can't deal with China unless you align with our policies. This idea that this is the peak of morality that you have to join in and expand this conflict even further, as opposed to non-involvement. In this country here, in Norway, we used to have a rule. We don't send weapons to conflict zones.

Well, it's out the window. Now it's immoral. We also used to have rules about not having a foreign basis on our soil. Now we're going to have littered the whole country with American bases. and yeah, we're not debating it, of course. So it's all this happening very, very quickly. But I guess my question was then on how you counter the propaganda because this cancellation of neutrality seems to be resting, yes, Mick was pointing it as well a lot on propaganda.

Because people haven't been told any of the truth about Ukraine in terms. Most people don't know that the Ukrainians and Russians pretty much agreed on a peace agreement. immediately after the Russians invaded that this was a way to push through the Minsk agreement. But they're not told. And as also Mick pointed out in Georgia now, they're trying to replay something similar. You have all these NGOs, stoking these riots,

the prime minister of Georgia, is warning that the US could possibly topple the government there because they want to open a second front against the Russians. And for an interesting, from across the EU showing up to march with the protesters. I read a Dutch MEP who threatened to sanction all Georgian MPs, democratically elected MPs, who would vote for this law to have some transparency with all these NGOs. They're not the real NGOs.

It's a non-governmental organization. These are all funded by governments. And again, my point is when one can argue for this, however, there's no this. discussion, it seems. When you open the papers, it only says, well, let's either choose Europe and freedom or you choose the Russian law and that Georgia will be under Russian control. This is just, it's very dishonest. And I feel some of this goes against two of you as well, because if you raise legitimate discussions, it's, you know, how much is Putin paying you? Are you Putin troll? We just do this slogan.

So how do you cut through this and try to have some, I guess, rational discussion? Well, I think it's beginning to change. It's beginning to change out of the tragedy of what's actually happening on the ground in Ukraine. And they can't even hide it anymore. Like even the dumbest of sort of people who don't, you know, from a political level, who don't know anything, kind of know now that there's no hope for Ukraine militarily. And even though they're still pushing them on, that's a basis to it. I do think people feel alienated from that type of labelling,

the sloganeering, the jingoism, the flag wave, and it's totally vacuous, disconnected from reality, and that's adding to people's sense of powerlessness. I suppose two things happen for us that made it a bit easier, and we do get the, you should be ashamed of yourself, working for Russia every single day when we're canvassing. Well, I do. I haven't met making three weeks until now.

So we have it as well. Yes, we get that every single day. I even looked like a Russian spot. Every day I have met people, every day who said thank you so much for your position on the war in Ukraine. It was so important for us that there was another voice there. And those voices had been silenced like because when we were in the thick of it,

really getting it in the neck when you were nearly afraid to go home like because of people shouting abuse and all of that. There was always a core group of people who said, thanks a million. They might have been whispering, afraid to say it. but they were really appreciative and across Europe they were really so the horror of the war

has made it easier. I mean there was a survey done last week which says 63% of people in Ireland now believe that the EU mishandled it and they should negotiate but also change it relates to a point you made Alexander earlier that I've forgotten about was frow genocide herself Ursula von der Leyen has been the best

poster girl for changing the attitudes in Ireland towards the European Union people are literally transfixed in horror of what that woman has enabled and supported in Israel but with standard

by Israel against the people of Gaza. It's a huge issue everywhere for people and they've seen not that the you know some people try to say

oh it shows they were so supportive of Ukraine why can't they support Palestine and we said no it's exactly the same they support

the war in Ukraine they are supporting the war on the people of Gaza, it's the same thing. And isn't it mad? And it comes back to the other point about how discourse has become sort of debased. And in Ireland, you know, you couldn't accuse somebody of being an anti-Semite because people just laugh at you because they kind of understand the whole history thing and they understand the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.

But like our position on the two situations were the same. We call for a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement in Ukraine. And we call for a cease-per and negotiate. And we called for a cease-per and negotiated settlement in Gaza. But nobody says you're a Netanyahu puppet because he wouldn't get away with that. But grown men and they're generally men in my experience grown men and of a certain age

and class standing seem to have bought this line that we are Putin puppets just because of argument for peace. Yeah, but I suppose Claire touched on there but in Ireland I see the place in mainland Europe as well but in Ireland in particular

the European Union's failure to condemn Israel after they killed 15,000 children and 10,000 women and we still haven't condemned Israel. We didn't throw them out of Sancontext. We didn't throw them out of the UAF a football championship, which will show of everything. Russia will throw now with dog shows. And yet, people are starting to see,

especially in Ireland, where the Irish have always had the Irish people, not the politicians, the Irish people have always had an affinity with the Palestinians because we were there. We had 800 years of the Brits, right? Now, that's

two years ago, but the people haven't forgotten it. And it's been passed down by word of mouth. And it's a very powerful team still, right? So watching what's happening in Gaza and they cannot even condemn

Israel. They cannot call it a genocide. They can pretend oh, it's just another war. My God, it is really making the Irish people kind of sit back and say, oh God.

Now, they haven't joined the dots with Ukraine because there was such a job done on the whole storyline around what was going on in Ukraine. They will join them in time. They haven't got there yet. But the European Union's position, the Parliament, the Council and the Commission, their position on Gaza has exposed them like nothing before, like nothing before.

And the Irish people are kind of wondering, how I thought the EU was progressive. I thought the EU were good, that's. I can't believe this. You're supporting a genocide. How can they do this? I don't understand. But what this has done as well, I mean, the Irish politicians have said some nice words about the Palestinian,

but done nothing. Since the 7th of October, under a question in the Irish Parliament about two months ago, a question to the minister, how much fuel use weapons have been licensed by the Irish government to go to Israel from Ireland since October 7th? We've sent 31 million euros worth of dual-used weapons to Israel since October 7th to kill Palestinians. Now, the mainstream media are not telling them that, even though that's on the record in the parliament.

And there's a video of it even, right? But this is shocking as well. But the politicians, because the people are so much sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, because the people are like that the politicians are afraid to be say anything nasty about the Palestinians now they're prepared to kind of

give the Israelis a slap on the hand a little bit but yet at the same time when we go into the Council of Ministers meeting in Brussels when our Minister goes in there what does he do he falls into line like the rest of the sheep which is one

one needs a strong European Parliament and one needs strong MPs like yourselves who are prepared to go out and speak out because I've, you know, if you're not there, I mean, I actually made the point. I'm sure you saw me say, which is I don't, I couldn't bear to watch European Parliament debates any longer if the two of you're not there, because who else speaks out like you do? And that's of course what a parliament is meant to be for. That's what parliaments are for, ultimately. It's for people to hold, for elected representatives to hold power to account, which of course is particularly difficult within the EU context, given that Ursula von der Leyen, who, by the way, you both take apart magnificently, can I just say. I mean, she's not directly elected in ways that, you know, other political leaders around the world are. She's not elected at all. No at all. She's chosen. She's chosen. Exactly.

She's a chosen official. Does anybody make the point, you know, outside yourselves that, you know, the same people who advocate war and conflict in Ukraine, want to send more weapons, want to send confront the Russians in every conceivable way, want to set up war ministries, defense ministries, the same sorts of people who attack the two of you, are the same people who, in Gaza, are happy to say absolutely, nothing or perhaps even outspokenly in some cases, by the way, to support Israel. Because I know that in Ireland, the Palestinian issue is important. Both Palestine and Ireland were British colonies at different times.

Actually, Palestine became a British colony, just as Ireland was gaining its freedom. So, at least most of Ireland, was gaining its freedom. But, I mean, you said that some people are beginning to join me. the dots, but isn't it perhaps obvious when one just takes a step back and looks at this, that there is a connection. It's somebody isn't going to be advocating war in one place and peace and, and, and, you know, not peace, I'm sorry, no, let's take that back, a complicity with another war somewhere else, without there being a connection, without this all being part of the same kind of strategy,

a policy of whatever you like, Western aggression, Western imperialism, call it whatever you will. But there is a connection. And that this is, again, if Ireland is a part of that, it is fatal to that which all those people, going all the way back to, you know, the United Irishman and all of those. of this for for so long. I would love to say that that was the case. I suppose, I don't know, do you want to try and answer that?

It's very, yeah, go on. First of all, we like to think that all is not lost. No. There's always hope, and there's hope in the people. There's not much in the politicians. and the two wars of Ukraine and Gaza have highlighted the huge gulf between how the people feel and how the politicians act.

The gulf has never been greater, but also it has never been as apparent to the people as before from our perspective. We feel that more people see it now than ever saw it before, whether that's enough to get us the election remains to be seen

but things are changing right we still there's so much about the European Union that's problematic and it's going in the wrong direction

and it's being in a hole for itself and things are getting worse we like to think that pressure from the people over the next couple of years can make

things different and can change things and force the politicians. Right now, the EU behaves like a vassal state of US empire. And that's hugely problematic. We don't really think for ourselves. We put sanctions on Russia to please the Americans and NATO. And we saw our food prices go up 20% for our citizens. Our energy prices went up over 30%. We sacrificed our own for a US NATO property war. But you know what? The people are not impressed. And they're going to a different place now in their minds.

And I honestly, I remain positive that the European project can be retrieved from these war mongers and that we can become something that's noble and that works for peace rather than war again. Yeah, no, I mean, Mika is right. like, I mean, the blinkers are off now. This election, like the last election, all people cared about was Brexit. You know what I mean? They were sick hearing about it anyway.

There's no discussion really about Europe and what the project was. You know what I mean? It's the, oh my God, we don't want to leave like them. Oh, that's terrible. That's all it was. But now, actually, there is scrutiny like never before because of underline and because of Gaza. Absolutely, that has changed things. And it has changed things in terms of a recognition of our role as well.

And sometimes in a terrifying. way in that we know our voices are heard in Palestine and were we to lose this platform. No doubt it will be spun as a blow to Palestine and the Israelis would be delighted and all the rest of it. But I mean, your point about how people haven't joined the dots is one that will be the subject, I think, of many PhD studies. Because if you think about it, we were anti-war activists, all our political lives. When we were in the Irish Parliament, we broke into the airport at Shannon to search US warplanes.

We were in court for days over this. We mentioned neutrality. So with that background, Mick was a businessman when he wasn't involved in politics. His buildings were draped with the thing, no to war, no to American terrorism. So we've a long history.

And then this war comes along. And people actually believe that we were the ones who support a war in Ukraine. And all of those ministers from Ireland who enabled Shannon to be used that they somehow were against the war in Ukraine. I mean, Exactly.

You made exactly the point I was trying to make, which is, anyway, carry on, Claire. No, I just, it's absolutely mental. Yeah, it is absolutely. I was just going to make my, yeah, just my final comment before we run out of time now. And I just want to say, because you keep saying this, yeah, connecting the dots. And I think one of the reasons why people don't necessarily always connect the dots and, you know, how someone who opposed every war is being seen now as being a supporter of the invasion. It really needs, I guess, for people to appreciate what propaganda actually does, because

you know, when you want to encourage people to invade and do this horrible thing, genocide, you appeal to the best in people usually in order to make them do the worst. And this is what, you know, you say, we need to support Jewish people because of all the horrible things that were done to them, which everyone would agree with. But then this translates into backing a genocide, same as Ukraine. We all want to see a free, prosperous Ukraine. But every time, they come up with the slogans. But when this translates into policies, it always entails sabotaging peace agreements,

sending more and more Ukrainians down to the trenches to die, even though we know the war can't be won. And it's just this time and time and again. It's always the same thing. It's the same with Europe. Everyone wants to be for Europe. It's our continent. We want stability.

but every time we talk about Europe now, it's always, yes, taking the knee to wanderline, and if you're pro-West, you have to subordinate your foreign policy to the Americans. It's just I wish people would dissect some of the rhetoric and how, this peaceful rhetoric, they have always translates into war and conflicts. Anyways, I know we're running time, so I'll... Well, it was my last remark.

I was going to say the reason for that, And it was said so eloquently by our president, Michael D. Higgins, at an event last week when he said he just, he condemned the fact that people had to fight for the space to talk about peace. And then he said, the military industrial complex is the most dangerous organization in the world. And that's why we're all in the situation. I'm not in the bit. That's why we're all in the situation we're in. He just said the military industrial complex is the most dangerous organization in the world. And it is. And that's why we have all the problems we have. And imagine back in 1960, Eisenhower was the first guy to use the term the military industrial complex. And he warned the world that this was dangerous. And we should be very worried. My last comment is around alternative media. We have, the mainstream media have been bought and paid for.

the year podcast, other people's podcasts that we listen so many people that I know now are starting to listen to more and more podcasts to get their information and that is so important and because without transparency, without

information, they always told us there was no democracy and now they don't want to give us truth information. They don't want to give us transparency because they don't want us to see what they're doing. But we, the alternative media can help people to get to that space and inform them better. And it's so vital that he's continuing to grow. Absolutely.

Well, I'm going to make my very fast final point, which is, first of all, I absolutely do want you both elected to the European Parliament re-elected again. I hope everybody on Ireland understands how important that is. I want to just add quickly to the point about the fact that people are seen through the smears. I have never known in my lifetime a period. when the political class, certainly in Britain, felt as insecure and as doubtful of its control and of its doubts about, you know, the fact that he has the loyalty of the people as it does now.

So actually, yes, we are winning. But in order to keep on winning and to consolidate that victory, we need people in the European Parliament and in all those other institutions who will continue the battle, the battle for peace and the battle. and the battle for protections and living standards and for the increase in democracy, which we all benefit from,

and for openness, and for proper dialogue and proper modern debate, proper debate, but also, as I said, who will address the butter issues. All of these things, red and butter issues, all of these things are connected.

We need people in the parliaments who can address the Ursula von der Leyen's directly and put them on the spot. We need them there. And that's why I want Mick Wallace and Claire Daly back in the European Parliament after the election, which takes place soon. So that's all I'm going to say. That's my very last final word. I hope there are people in Ireland but listening.

I'm sure there are. And what you've heard, you've heard us speak. It's consistent with the island I know, but it's also important for Europe, but all of Europe. and, you know, ultimately for humanity as well. Thanks so much, guys. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Best of luck with the re-election and fighting the slogan airing. Thanks a million. We'll do our best. See you soon. Thanks very much. Bye-bye. Bye.