The Duran Podcast - Moving towards Russia-US bilateral negotiations

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

Moving towards Russia-US bilateral negotiations

All right, Alexander, let's talk about the diplomacy that took place the other day in Moscow between the United States and Russia, with Khrushchev, Kushner, with Putin, Ushikov, and Dimitriev. What were your thoughts on the meeting? Five hours long. Well, five hours a lot. It was a very long meeting, and indeed, one wonders what they talk about for five hours, because I can't believe it's just about Ukraine, because it's quite clear that, the Ukraine issue, there was no real movement. The Americans came with what I suspect was their

original 28 points, which has now been reduced to 27. At least that's what the Russians are telling us. That's what Ushachov said to us. The Russians said what they've been saying for, well, several weeks now. Uschikov has said it, Peskov has said it, Putin himself has said it. These are interesting ideas, but they're discussion points. They're not a plan. We're prepared to sit down with the Americans, and we're prepared to talk about this. Apparently, Kushner and Wickoff brought four other documents with them. Four.

So five documents altogether. I suspect the original one, the original 28, 27 points. The other four, who knows what they are, 19 points, 22 points. points, European ideas, all kinds of other things. According to Uschakoff, they didn't discuss the wording of any of these documents. Putin said in general terms, we are happy to discuss this, set up proper negotiating teams, get your people organized, and we're prepared to meet, and we're prepared to have a proper discussion.

But there is a lot of work to do. Now, that's what Uschakoff is saying. And I have no reason to doubt that. Everybody seemed happy to meet everybody else, smiles all round from this meeting. The meeting that had taken place between the Americans and the Ukrainians in Florida, very different mood and atmosphere and much shorter meeting. So the only question for me about this meeting, because everything, everything that we've just said now has been signposted already.

the only question is what they talked about for five hours. Because a five-hour meeting to discuss what exactly, given that the Russians have already said everything that I've just said many, many times. And presumably Kushner and Whitkoff knew it. So were they discussing economic cooperation, where they're discussing arms control, were they talking about Venezuela, Were they talking about Iran? Were they talking about the Middle East? I would be curious to know.

Probably all of those things. But the bigger question is, what would Whitkoff or Kushner be able to add to conversations on arms control? I mean, what would they say about arms control? What could Whitkoff or Kushner contribute to a discussion on arms control? I mean. That's an excellent point because then, I mean, Kushner isn't even part of the US government in any way at all. He's a private businessman who happens to be the president's son-in-law. That's the only role he has.

Whitgolf apparently has some kind of official status within the US government, but it's extremely unclear what it is. He's not a member of the State Department. He's not on the National Security Council. Exactly what role he plays. I'm not entirely sure either. I mean, here's the president's representative, authorized representative. He's authorized to conduct diplomacy on behalf of the United States. But on top of everything else, you're absolutely right.

He doesn't know anything about arms control. He doesn't know about throw weights of missiles and all of the technical details that you need to have if you're going to conduct an arms control negotiation properly. So again, I'm just puzzled as to the length of the meeting, given the extraordinary difference between the results of the meeting, which were no different from what we'd already expected, and the actual length of the meeting, which seems to be,

has gone on for five hours discussing what exactly. And by the way, on the Russian side, it's the same. And Putin, of course, can discuss arms control. I mean, they have that level of in-depth knowledge. Dmitriev, who was also at the meeting, he obviously can't either. He too is a businessman, who is also, by the way, not a member of the Russian government. Well, Putin dedicated five hours of his time. Absolutely.

I mean, you know, Putin probably doesn't have five hours available to give anybody. To be quite honest, I mean, he's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But he dedicated five hours of his time to meeting with Whitkoff and Kushner. We also have to point out that Kushner is new to this. I mean, he was brought into this from his negotiations with Whitkoffin, with the Gaza, a 20-point peace plan that Trump put together. And I guess Trump liked the combination of Whitkoff and Kushner. so he moved Kushner to the negotiations with Russia.

Yes. So, I mean, what was discussed? I mean, what do you think was discussed? I mean, Wyckh probably has an understanding of the Russia stuff. I mean, you know, he's six, seven times in Moscow. Okay, so I'm sure that, you know, he has a pretty good grasp of what the Russians are looking for and what the Ukrainians, the U.S., the U.S. Ukrainians, the collective West are looking for.

Kushner, probably not so much. But what did they discuss for five hours? What do you think? Well, indeed. Well, I don't know. I mean, I would also add that Witgolf apparently speaks Russian. I mean, he's a, you know, from Russian immigrant background. So he has that knowledge anyway.

He's got some knowledge of Russia and Russian culture and Russian way of doing things, which perhaps other people in the US don't have to the same extent. But what did they discuss? Well, I am going to suggest that what they really discussed, probably in rather broad terms, but it was probably rather freewheeling discussion, which explains why it lasted five hours. And by the way, just to add, Putin is a very overworked man.

He doesn't have many five hours stretches to, you know, give up. He'd just been to a big investment forum in Moscow. he'd given a press conference about the attacks on the oil tankers and other things. He was on the eve of a major trip to India. He's giving a media interview to the Indian media as well. And on top of that, he's got a cold. He wasn't physically in top form. So, you know, all of that.

And he still gives it five hours. What I'm going to guess most of these two, discussions now are about is not so much Ukraine anymore because I get the sense that the work that Whitkoff and Dimitriyev and Whitkoff and Ushachov have done has now been done. And Putin gave a press conference in which he made it very, very clear that from this point on the Russians want proper conventionally conducted negotiations. with proper negotiating teams. He said, I don't know any other way to move forward with this.

So I suspect what they talked about was the general state of U.S.-Russia relations and possible ways forward, ideas about economic cooperation, about a general improvement of U.S.-Russia relations and what each side has to offer the other. and I suspect this has been discussed in many meetings, but probably, and you're quite right, Kushner is new to all of this, so they needed to go over all of this with Kushner, so that he would come away with a sense of what the possible ways forward for Russia and the United States might be. So that, that I suspect, is what they talked about, probably in fairly general terms,

but the Russians explaining what they can offer the US in terms of oil and Arctic development and science and technology and cooperation in aerospace and all of those things. The Americans talking about what they can offer and that kind of discussion was probably what took place. All that we can say is, by the way, that Kushner and Wittgoff returns to Washington, they didn't meet Zelensky. It seems they didn't meet him in Ireland, and they didn't meet him on the way back to the US from Moscow. They spoke to Trump, and Trump seems to have been relatively happy with the outcome of the meeting.

So that's all we could say. Yeah, because they probably discuss business. That's why Trump probably is happy with the outcome of the meeting. Exactly. Exactly. And there is, by the way, a furious article in the Financial Times about this, and it says that, These are not, this is not diplomacy. It's all about businessmen meeting and agreeing to do business with each other.

And this goes completely against classical diplomacy. And it undermines the position of Ukraine and of Europe and of the collective West, which is all true, by the way. Well, they took themselves out of the game, though. I mean, they don't want to engage diplomacy. And there wasn't see that all the time. So, I mean, you know, the whole argument that, well, This is not classic diplomacy. Well, you know, who are you sending to Moscow?

Who can you send to Moscow? Well, fair in mind. Well, if we're talking about classic diplomacy, there is one major absence from the American group team. And that is the U.S. Secretary of State, Marker Rubio. I mean, he hasn't been to Moscow since he became Secretary of State. He's had a number of meetings with Love Rolf. But that's all he's done. I was wondering whether he would come with Wickhoff and Kushner to Moscow,

and we see that he didn't. So he doesn't want to. So he's cutting himself out. The Europeans are cutting themselves out. So that doesn't leave any room for classical diplomacy. Well, when you listen to Rubio's statements, for example, the interview he gave to Hannity, as Wickhoff and Kushner were meeting with Putin, you get the understanding. you get the understanding that Rubio is still talking about a freeze.

That's my understanding of all the statements that it makes. I mean, he pretty much says it where we're negotiating for a sovereign Ukraine. We're also negotiating for Ukraine that in 10 years is going to be stronger than Russia. And he pretty much admits that his goal is to get a freeze in this conflict. And he also admits that he is very much on the side of the Europeans. He's very much aligned with the Europeans. So very much like, I mean, I give him credit for saying that he doesn't want to meet with Kayakalus and the Europeans.

So at least he's smart enough to say, I'm not going to waste my time with these vassals. But he is loyal to the Atlantis and the neocon globalist cause. which is unsurprising. Unsurprising, but of which the vassals are folded under. The European vassals are part of that cause. Correct. Which is unsurprising, because throughout his entire political career,

he's been a neocon. He's not going to change, and it is inconceivable that he will change. What he does, and he does this, one has to say this, he does this with some skill. He gives the impression that he fully supports

the policy and that he fully backs Wittgolf, even as at the same time he undermines him. Now, what it must be said also happened is that there was a meeting in Miami, or at least I believe it was Miami, in Florida, between the Americans, including Rubio and the Ukrainians. And that meeting went extremely badly, because from what I can tell, the meeting, which we've already discussed, and we can say now definitely that Budanov was indeed cut out of it. That meeting produced no movement from the Ukrainians on any substantive issue whatsoever. So there was a, apparently there was meetings with a full negotiating team to the side, and that didn't make any progress.

And then somebody suggested that they do it three, you know, the actual leaders, the three to three, a ruby, Wittgolf and Kershnev meeting the Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians cut out Wadanov, and the meeting was held without him. And it was basically Umerov. Ummerov then went to meet Zelensky in Ireland, apparently. Zolensky did want to meet Wittgolf in Ireland. Wittgolf didn't want to meet them. He just flew on to Moscow. And anyway, it looks as if that meeting didn't go well, and that probably may, has made the position of people like Rubio in the U.S., well, it's probably weakened it because they can show that there is no movement on the Ukrainian side,

on anything. Why do they need movement on the Ukrainian side? Why does the United States need movement on the Ukrainian side? The United States can dictate anything they want, not only to the Ukrainians, but to the Europeans. There is not one country in Europe, not one in Europe that will be able to do something against the United States. Whatever the United States tells the European countries to do, they're going to do it. Whatever the United States tells Ukraine to do, they're going to do it. But the whole illusion of this negotiation, in some room, from what I understand, this was Whitkoff's property in Miami.

You're right. I think it's Miami. And it's a development that Whitkoff helped develop or owns or something like that. So it takes place in this in this in this dingy small little room. And you can see everyone's upset. Everyone's like this. Everyone's angry. A Wickoff doesn't want to be there.

The Ukrainian side obviously doesn't want to be there. Yes. My guess would be is is no one wants to be there because everyone understands it. It's a complete farce. The whole thing is a farce. It's not just a farce. It's a charade. It's a charade.

Trump could just say, look, this is how it's going to be. End of story. And you know what's going to be able to resist, to resist what the United States says on the collective way. Well, exactly. Well, exactly. And this is where we come back to the Russians, because Uschakoff has now said that the Russians see the way forward as a direct bilateral negotiation between Russia and the United States. Exactly. He's actually asked the question, I don't know why the Europeans are being consulted at all. And you could say the same about the Ukrainians.

So the Russians now are basically saying, look, this has got, the only way this can move forward is by a direct negotiation between Russia and the United States. Now, that then throws the thing back to the Americans. So Kushner, Whitgolf, they have this five-hour meeting, they go to Washington, they meet Trump. Trump says he's happy with the outcome. But what the Russians are now expecting is that Trump is going to appoint a team of negotiators with experts and with all of those things and agree a meeting and set up a venue and conduct negotiations that way. Putin has said it. Ushikov said it after the meeting with Wutkoff and Kushner.

Putin said it's the only way. to conduct negotiations on such a complex issue. I know of no other. So is Trump going to do that? Does he have anybody to do it? Has he even thought about what that means? And bear in mind, I believe that there is a school of thought which says that any chief negotiator in that kind of negotiating session, in a negotiating system that the United States

sets up, that chief negotiator needs to be approved by the Senate. In other words, Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, Warner, all of these Tom Cotton, all of these people would have a say in who it is. So is that even possible? My sense of things is that Trump believes he could sit down with Putin and they can say, look, let's just wrap up this conflict in Ukraine. And then we can sign some multi-billion or multi-trillion dollar deals and be done with it. That's my sense of things. I'm simplifying it. But my sense is that this is how Trump is looking at this.

Just go to Moscow. Just tell the Russians, we'll do some stuff in the Arctic. We'll do some stuff with Nord Stream. We'll do some stuff in the caucuses. will sell this to you and you can sell that to us. Even Trump's statements, as he's speaking to the media from his Oval Office, as he's getting questions, he always says Russia wants to wrap this up. They want to do business.

They're losing thousands of dollars, thousands, millions of dollars, whatever he says, doing business with the United States. He's always thinking in those terms. He still has not understood the significance of the significance. of what is happening in this part of the world, especially for Russia. He has not understood it, nor does he even care to understand it. I don't think he cares. He just wants to make deals.

And of course, he also wants to say, I solved the ninth conflict, right? He wants to say that. He's these, he's itching to say, he's dying to say, I've solved nine conflicts. This was Biden's war, but I cleaned it up. It was a mess, but I cleaned it up. And I'm also bringing a trillion dollars in Russian investments to the United States. That's exactly the announcement he wants to make. Yes.

Conceptually, is he capable of seeing things in any other way? I mean, this is the other question I ask. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. But is he able to imagine the kind of negotiations that Putin is talking about? And beyond anything else, as I said, to repeat again, Who does he have to conduct those negotiations? I mean, he could appoint Rubio. Rubio has already been appointed.

He's Secretary of State, so he doesn't need to go through the whole business of Senate approval. But that would mean tying down your foreign minister in negotiations with the Russians. Here's a question I can't imagine. Can Rubio do these things? Rubio is not a diplomat. No, no, no, no. He's really, I mean, when you look at Rubio, he's not really someone who went through the foreign service or is a trained, educated diplomat in any stretch of the imagination. He's a senator.

He was a senator and, you know, he has no formal training or education in diplomacy or foreign policy or anything like that. He's got the neocon foreign policy worldview, but that's it. Yes. which is the one that dominates the State Department, and that is the problem, because the people who are trade diplomats in the State Department are all probably to a man and woman, completely opposed to this whole process.

So putting together a negotiating team of the kind that Putin is thinking about, and the Russians want, I think it's impossible. So that brings us back to this question, what is this all for? I mean, does Trump, really believe this is going somewhere, or is this just a charade? There is a view, and it's being promoted now in the media in London, by the way, that this is again setting up the whole

situation for Trump to say that the Ukrainians are not being helpful, the Russians are not being helpful, and I'm going to pull back from direct involvement in this. Well, Trump has been been given that option many times. He's never taken it. He's never taken it. So I don't fully understand what this is about anymore. The only thing that may lead me to believe that Trump might take this option this time around, even though he's been presented this option, 100 freaking times to say that and walk away,

the only reason you can make the argument and say, okay, maybe this time around he'll do it is because the collective West is getting their butt kicked on the battlefield. And it's visible now. I mean, there's no one, no one anywhere in the world that can argue that Ukraine is not losing bad. So maybe Trump this time around will say, okay, I have to walk away from this because we're getting spanked. Yes, yes. Well, I have to push back. There are some strange people who do.

There are some, I believe that you're absolutely correct. I mean, it's becoming impossible any longer to go on with the pretense that Ukraine is holding its own and is winning the war. I mean, even Bill Zayt is now finally admitting that the Russians have captured. Well, I know the telegraph is admitted. But, I mean, the built sighting has Pachrovsk is lost. The Ukrainians are surrounded in Mironograd. I mean, it's starting to break through, and the media is starting to say it, and it's becoming impossible to deny anymore. So that might be the one thing, as you rightly say, that ultimately

breaks the dead law. But in the meantime, Ruby, I'm sorry, not Ruby, Whitgoth and Kushner come with their 27 points or 28 points for other documents. We don't even know what they documents are, Uschikov says, you know, we didn't even discuss the wording of them in this five-hour meeting. I mean, you're five-hour meeting with all of these documents, and they don't even discuss what the documents say. It does seem extraordinary. A five-hour chat between Putin, you know, five, no doubt interesting people, Putin, Dimitriyev, Uschikov, Kushner, and with golf. They have a nice five-hour chat with each other. But I mean, this doesn't really look like any kind of negotiation or serious talks about moving this process forward. Interesting, interesting

ideas. But that's all they are. But final question. Do you think maybe Ushikov is playing everybody? Maybe they did come to some sort of an agreement. Maybe they did talk about the details. Maybe they have come to an understanding. Maybe the understanding. Maybe the understanding. That does very much revolve around business agreements. Let's wrap this up and so we can get to business. I mean, do you think that perhaps we're being misled? Just a thought. Well, it is possible, but it is not at all like the way in which Putin has governed Russia.

I mean, when Putin makes comments, and Uschikov obviously is acting as Putin's voice, when Putin provides updates on matters of this kind, he's pretty reliable in what he says to the Russian people, at least. And I'm not saying he's not capable of misleading people. Yes, I think that for well short of the truth or are economic or with the truth. But I think this time the deception, which would be a deception of the Russian, Russian elite and of the Russian people would be so gross that if it were done that way, I think it would precipitate a political crisis.

And I can't imagine that that's really something that Putin, who is extremely cautious about these sort of things, would risk. So I think on balance, I mean, it's not on balance. I think definitely I would go along with the this of what Ischaikov is saying. Right. You believe Wishikov's statements. Yeah, yes, yes. As accurate. Yes.

Okay. I think so. I think so. Okay. Just to find one last question, where do we go from here? Well, as I said, it depends on Trump. He now has to come up with a negotiating team. Balls in his court.

At least he's not, I mean, the one thing I would say is at least he's now saying that he doesn't want to meet with Zelensky or indeed with Putin until the deal is done. And he should have said that right all along. and the fact that he's refusing to meet with Zelensky is a good sign. He needs to stick with that. I don't believe he will, by the way. I think sooner or later he's going to meet Zelensky because he always does. So it's possible that we're going to get the swing back, and we're going to start seeing, you know, the Trump disappointed with Putin,

imposing sanctions on putting more pressure and even Tomahawk missiles and things of that kind. But to be honest, I think that we are moving beyond that now. And it is the military situation that is the cause. Because with the Russians continuing to advance, I think it's becoming very difficult, even for Trump to believe that there's any kind of pressure that's going to stop the Russians now. All right. We will end the video there. The durand.com.

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