The Duran Podcast - Protests and regime change in Georgia w/ Patrick Lancaster

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Protests and regime change in Georgia w/ Patrick Lancaster

All right, Alexander, we are here with Patrick Lancaster, and Patrick is currently in Tbilisi, Georgia. So he is on the ground in Tbilisi, and he will be able to tell us everything that is happening in Georgia. Patrick, before we get started, where can people follow your work? Okay, well, first of all, as normal, thanks for having me on again, guys. Great to see you. Great to get some information out to the world with you. and as far as my work, the place where people can go to get the most updates and text, video, photos is substack,

subscribe to my blog on scubs, substack, and of course, on YouTube, Patrick Landcasters, where the meets of my real in-depth report go. So those two YouTube and substacks are the two must to get the most out of my report. All right, and I have those as links in the description box down below,

as well as a pin comment. So Alexander, Patrick, let's talk about everything that is happening in Georgia. Protests almost every single day now, trying to regime change the Georgia dream government with the president in Georgia, Salome Zura Bichavili, who is leading the charge to regime change the government in Georgia. So, Alexander Patrick, let's talk about Georgia.

Indeed, yes. And can I just say one of the things that I had not been aware of, because of course all of this started with a parliamentary election that took place a couple of weeks ago, which Georgia Dream won, apparently was 53% of the vote. Anyway, it turns out that there was a team of election monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which I didn't know. And these monitors have given that election, the stamp of approval. They said it was carried out fairly and that the results are correct. So that's something that has not been widely reported in the media in the West at all.

and it's obviously not something that the people who are protesting in Belisi will accept, and it's clearly not something that the president of Georgia is prepared to accept. But apparently that report is there. So Patrick Lancaster, you're there in Tbilisi. Tell us what the situation is. Protests every day. Are they big? Is the government about to fall?

Yes, Alexander. Protests every day. I've been here in Tbilisi for five days. And today will be the Wells Day of protests, I believe, following, of course, the so-called announcement by the Prime Minister to suspend, as they say, the EU accession talks until 28, which later he somewhat backtracked on. So it's really a bit confusing to someone that. just sees it from the outside.

And even for the protesters on the ground, they don't even understand fully. But yes, five days here. And arrived on the seventh day of protest and was quiet. The seventh and eighth day, as far as quiet, I mean large protests, but no violence, anything more than some fireworks being shot

at the front of the parliament building and people hitting the front of the parliament building was rock. So a little violence, but no reaction for the first two days I was here, and that would be Wednesday and Thursday, was given back, no reaction from the police and the SWAT teams back at the protesters. But Friday was a different tone.

There was more protesters and shortly after midnight, violence erupted where the protesters were hitting the police directly with large, almost you could say industrial pyro-technics. I mean, I'm sure you've seen the photos and videos that have been coming out. I mean, just huge fireworks pieces that, you know, or for big fireworks shows, just directly at the line. of police and police vehicles, and the police responded with water cannons and a short bit later, tear gas,

which, as myself, I was purposely between the protesters and the police to document as much as possible. And I'm inadvertently quite a few, few times got caught up in a few different clouds of the tear gas. And I could say it's very effective. But so the protests turned into, you can say riots and clashes between the protesters and the police Friday night for several, several hours as the police slowly pushed them away from the pilot building down the streets until they dispersed. But there was,

I can say restraints by the police for the days prior and that day. I mean, it really took a lot because it wasn't only, I forgot to mention, wasn't only the fireworks being fired. There were protesters throwing glass bottles and rocks directly at the police. And of course, everything I'm saying, as normal is always documented in my report. So people can go to my channel and see that. So there's nothing I'm, you know, just coming up with off the top of my head. This is all in my reports.

And I didn't see any protesters on that night. Injured are hit directly with anything by the police. In general, I was about 10 to 15 meters back from the police line and about 5 to 10 meters in front of the civilian line. So there was a good 15 to 25 meters between civilians, the protesters and the police at any given time. Of course, stragglers, protesters would run up with some fireworks and do that stuff. But the majority, there was a gap in between.

You could say a gray zone almost. And that's where I was staying most of the time. But I didn't see any serious injuries of protesters. Of course, a lot of people gassed. and they were kind of organized as far as the medical department within the protesters themselves. Many, many people just standing around with saline bottles and different things to clean out the eyes. And as soon as they would see someone that was obviously incapacitated because of the gas, even myself. Because when I became gas, there's nothing I could do, but just, you know, nothing I could do,

stand there like a zombie and then people would see these medical people in the protesters themselves would see the people incapacitated and run to them, spray them down and try to get the pepper. And it wasn't pepper, it was actually a tear gas. We came to the conclusion myself and several other journalists that it wasn't CS gas, it was tear gas. And again, very effective. It would When they were using the gas, it was like, you know, in your head, come on, guys, go back to the water cannons. You know, oh, this is, it really gets, gets the protesters moving back. But, yeah, so that was the extent to Friday night. It fizzled off at about three in the morning.

It consisted of firework flights, gas, tear gas, and water cannon fights. It clashes between protesters and police. Saturday, everyone expected it to resume, but it didn't. Maybe they were out of ammunition, maybe they weren't. And one thing I have to mention on Friday, I noticed where they were getting the fireworks, where they were reloading, was inside the apartments on the main street there. They were just running inside, grabbing a bunch of fireworks and then firing. And another thing that needs to be mentioned.

I've seen riots before, but these riots, the people are really, being respectful of the businesses along the main street there. It's not like some riots where you've got to go and the businesses board everything up. I mean, of course, there's some windows that are broken, but I mean, not even 5%

of the business windows. I would say probably around 1 to 2% of the big windows have damage to them. Not much at all, considering the many thousands of people. I mean, I'm not an expert accounting crowd,

but I mean, we're talking definitely tens of thousands of people. Now, you know, that's a small percentage of, you know, even a small country of several million, but, you know, it is what it is. They've got a turnout of tens of thousands on most nights. And talking to the protesters on different nights, the overwhelming thing and seeing the protesters through the group. young people, I would say on average, majority between 15 and 25 years old,

maybe pushing 30, some of them. And all seeming to have the same opinion, very pro-European, as you know, everyone would expect and knows, very anti-Russian and some anti-Georgian dream group. Another thing that needs to be mentioned. I'm going on too much, but it's...

No place. Yeah. So, and there is a... I would say not a large amount, but there's no question around this area of the protests. There are several locations where there are... extremist symbols like swastikas, the Azov Nazi symbols, and more. And that's in several areas in the protest area.

So that was somewhat, I don't know, surprising, but interesting to see. And several Azov symbols, I can say, I guess, because of people coming from the Ukraine War Zone, from Assov, speculation. But I don't know who did it, but the fact is, it's not in one place. It's in several places. And the, on, and that was Saturday nights, which maintains somewhat calm, peaceful, fireworks firing in the sky, no clashes. and on yesterday, Sunday, unfortunately, I had gotten information

in the late evening that some, quote-unquote, famous Georgian journalists that are pro-Georgian dream had published photos and information about myself and actually another journalist that has also worked in Dunbas before, Natayan journalist, that was just arrived yesterday, and basically did a somewhat of a loose call for protesters to go after us. And it worked. Just after midnight, we were together,

because we, with another one of our colleagues, because we kind of expected that something might have. happen. And we were approached, followed, pushed, threatened, and the more, more we walks, more people, some with masks, some without masks, came up, hassling us about our work and Dunboss and saying that we were lying about things. I mean, this is without them even looking at my reports that I've done here. I mean, everything I do here, and I've always done, always about the facts. You know, some people just don't want the other side's facts to be shown, as we all know.

But, yeah, so Chase followed, pushed, threatened. It was a very uncomfortable situation, and as the result, I had to kind of cut my work back for the evening, unfortunately. But actually, today I just put out a report about the whole situation so people can see exactly what happened uncuts. Yeah, so it's a shame that these protesters wanted to restrict freedom of speech

of journalists, and, you know, it wasn't the first on the night before. I know, you know, wasn't filed or anything, but said, oh, Patrick, we know you. And then some derogatory comments. And then another time, me and another colleague asked if we knew where there was Russian journalists because they were

looking for Russian journalists to get them out of there. So, yeah, there's a lot of anti anything that they don't want to be said, you can say. But

but the I have been able to understand that what these protesters are saying doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the Georgia people overall. When I asked them the first couple of days, because I concentrated on the protest, to give the protests a chance to see what they had to say, to try to hear their point of view.

May said, oh, a lot of times I was told, yeah, the vast majority, almost 90% back us up. One said 35%. get little things like that. But yesterday I went to just, I'd say, kilometer and a half, two kilometers from the center where the parliament building is, where the riots take place, and started interviewing people.

And it was mainly the next generation up that was actually interested in speaking to me. And got a very, very different opinion on the situation than what the protesters had to say. Literally, every person that spoke to me said that the protesters were wrong and should not be protesting in their city. And it was kind of surprised to see such, just 100% of the people that talked to me against the protesters. But in some ways, still having the same ideals, some of the same ideals as the protesters

of being pro-Ukraine pro-European Union but not being against the Georgian dream. Many of the people I interviewed yesterday at Waverton protesters said, yeah, it's going to happen. The election was not rigged. It was legitimate. It was an honest election.

And they say everybody thinks that in less than of 5%, with all the answers I got, they averaged out to about 5% of the population supported the protesters. That's what they said. 100% of the people that

talked, said this general thing. And every single interview I made, no matter how small it was, is going to be posted, if not this evening, tomorrow on my channel,

unedited, no special cuts, no nothing, just the facts. And that's, you know, that's what it is. That's what my, what I've seen in the last five days. I think everybody should go to your channel and should watch these interviews. And I think that is extremely important because it gives an opportunity for people in Georgia, Georgians themselves, not political people, not journalists or commentators. but the sort of people that we speak to, but actual ordinary people in Georgia. I don't like the word ordinary, by the way.

But anyway, I don't know what other word to use, but the everyday people of Georgia gives their opportunity to state their views. So two big takes about the protests themselves, Patrick, and I'd be very interested about your comments about this. Firstly, it does strike me that your description of the violence, on Friday, suggests that it was organized, at least to some extent. Do you think that this, you know, again, I'm not suggesting that we know because we don't know. But did it look to you as if there was a deliberate attempt being made to provoke the police into

overreacting? I should say that as somebody who is from Greece, I've seen that done many, many times in protests in Greece, I've seen how there's usually elements within protests who deliberately go out of their way to try and provoke the police into some kind of massive reaction that they can then use to exacerbate the situation. But, I mean, was that your feeling? And it looks again as if, from what you say, that the type of people who are protesting in policing are what you might call the school kids and the students. Is that perhaps a wrong take on the sort of people the protesters are?

Yeah, like I said, the average eight, I mean, many teenagers, for sure. No question, there's many teenagers and many young 20s, maybe late 20s, even early 30s, possibly, of course, a few from all ages, but the majority, definitely 15 to 25, maybe 15 to 30, is somewhere around there, but definitely younger than me for sure. But as far as the organization and trying to get a response, I mean, I don't want to say, we can say the facts. intelligent person can understand what someone can maybe maybe be trying to do or will happen when something's done. So if someone is in front, if 10,000 people, 20,000 people is in front

of several lines of police chanting for many hours for over a week and waits until the police change their uniforms to the SWAT-style protective uniforms and somewhat suggests the protesters move on and then opens fire. The protesters open fire on these police over and over and over and over. And that's after several hours of firing directly on the parliament building and the police just standing there doing nothing and several hours of the protesters shying lasers in the police's eyes. So, yeah, there comes a time when the police push, need to get the protesters to leave. and when those protesters just open fire on the police with heavy pyrotechnics, there's going to be a reaction.

Any halfway intelligent person can realize that. So if you want to say you're doing it and not trying to get a reaction, and if you really believe that, then there's something wrong. But we can compare Friday to Sunday, which was yesterday, which was very, Actually, excuse me, Saturday, which was very quiet. It compared, it just fizzled off on its own. The police left, the protesters left. No SWAT gear, no nothing.

I mean, there was just night and day at the end. So there was an effort put in place to make this happen. Is there a heavy police presence generally in the police? I mean, is this a city which is basically in any kind of lockdown? Or is this, is the other police only there when the protests happen? From the only place in the whole city that I have seen police is from Freedom Square, which is on one side down the street from the parliament, and then the other square, which is down that street, and then guarding the parliament on each side street and on the

porch of the parliament. Other than that, I haven't seen any police anywhere else in Tbilisi. And just to be clear, very heavy police on that street, on both sides, on the location, a lot. What you get the sense that the objective of the protesters is, I mean, have they ever explained to you what they want to achieve with these protests? I mean, when I say, I mean, achieve, I mean, practical terms. I mean, again, in Eastern Europe, in many protests, we see attempts to storm the Parliament building, for example. I mean, are they trying to get access to the Parliament building itself?

If they do, what does they think that will achieve? I mean, has anybody said anything about that to you? I don't think they're trying to do that. I guess in the first few days, the police and government forces put up a mess. metal just, you know, wall at the main entrance and the police board or block the side streets to go to the side entrances. So theoretically, there's no way in except for the windows.

But it just doesn't feel like that's the goal to get inside. I mean, they want to, yeah, they want to be outside and have many, many journalists take their photo, then send it off to European. countries and say that this is what they want. Are there any speakers? I mean, do we actually have speeches made or anything of that kind? Or is it just people turning up, heckling the police on Friday, acting violently towards the police?

Or are the speakers, are the platforms set up or anything of that kind? Well, we can go backwards. Last night, there was a speech given by what appeared to be the head of a, I can't say, small group or maybe group of about 30 masked individuals in all black, who purportedly was a group called the Defense Force, is what they called themselves, which they said they came together in response to some attacks that happened on. protesters and pro opposition journalist over the weekend as well on the side streets. They said they were coming together to protect protesters and pro-opposition people. Now these attacks that happened over the weekend

where it's been unclear who attacked these protesters and pro-opposition journalists. but they really full-blown attacked them. I mean, head stomping, women thrown to the ground journalists. And obviously they were against the protesters. And purportedly, the government has started an investigation into it. The protesters claim that their government thugs. The government, as I said, started an investigation into find out who they are.

But in the videos, it seems like they are pretty organized. I mean, using hand signals to direct who to attack and whatnot. So something I haven't seen with my own eyes except for the video. So it's a little bit here and there. Have any buildings been occupied? No. No, no, no. The only building that's really under protest is the parliament building, and it is not, as we said.

And it's just, I mean, and there's not even an all-night presence. It's not like they're camped out, you know, making a constant presence. It's just a, well, let's go in the evening. Let's stay until the morning, sometimes one to five in the morning and go from there.

Kind of like a hobby almost, it seems. What about the rest of the city? I mean, you spoke to people, they express their views. Is the rest of the city, is it going on as normal? Are businesses open, shops, restaurants, theaters, that kind of thing. Is it still, is it functioning? Are they preparing for Christmas? I don't know when they celebrate Christmas, by the way, in Georgia, whether they celebrate it, according to the Western or the Russian calendar. But anyway, I mean, are they gearing up for the festivities in Christmas? over the rest of the city, or is this a very tense situation overall? Even the street where the protests are, the businesses are still working as normal.

Even during the protests, the 24-hour shops are still open doing really good business. The McDonald's just up the street full of protesters constantly all night long. So it's not really like this, you know, dark time, you know, where, you know, everything's boarding up. No, it's totally functioning as normal, except the protesters block this street every night and try to get people to listen to what they have to say. Is there any resentment to the protesters? Are people angry that they're, you know, that they're choking, you know, blocking up the central places in the city? because I see that happen also in Athens and London, people get very annoyed after a time that this is creating a lot of unnecessary disruption to their lives.

Well, I would say not too much. When I saw the actual moment that they were closing the street, they were actually kind of nice at first they were like, oh, turn around. They were like, oh, it's already blocked there. They actually, you know, the drivers and protesters talked and the pro just came, all right, let them through and then that's it. So, I mean, it's pretty civil interaction. And overall, like I said,

except for the Friday, the vast majority of the protesters were, for the majority of the time, were, you know, annoying, you could say, very annoying to the police, but civil. So, you know, I don't think in any time, they were much going out of their way to try to injure the police,

um, or kill the police, just maybe get a reaction, as you said. Um, I haven't seen a single Molotov cockale thrown or any deliberate, deliberate attempts to burn any authorities or authorities equipment. Um, I believe that happened in the first days, but I haven't seen it. time. I've just seen fireworks from the protesters, tear gas and water cannon as far as the use in the clashes. One very last question for me. Any sense of where this is going? I mean, are the protests gaining momentum, do you think? Is the government thinking about making concessions to them? Or alternatively, are the protests, are the protests,

going to eventually run out of momentum and going to start petering out. I mean, obviously, it's difficult to say about these things, but if you've any thoughts about that, I'd be curious to, we'd be curious to hear what you have to say on this. Well, it's compared to right now in the last days to what it was the first days, from all of my interactions and questions to people that were there, the first days, both civilians, journalists, and all that, it's considerably less than half now

than it was the first days. And we've had some days in the last five days where one day it would be up, then it'd be down, then it'd be up. But overall, we're looking at half as what it was in the first few days is my understanding of the situation. So it seems like it's capering off. And of course, the first few days, violence every day. Now in this five days, just one day of violence and clashes, you could say. So, yeah, it's tapering off. I don't think

I don't think there's going to be a new election like the protesters are asking for because it seems that the majority of the country didn't, doesn't think that the elections were, false. So, yeah. Well, Patrick, and this is something else that you want to tell us. That's my question. Actually, just one other thing. There's one very last question I would like to ask is, is this protest restricted to Belisi? I mean, are we getting protests in other places, in other

towns and villages and cities across the country? I have been told there has been other protests around is up to eight other cities but I'm not sure 100%. I haven't had a chance to go see it myself if there are how big they are it's so hard to tell at this time but days ago actually just before I came

there was a report that it had spread to eight other cities unfortunately I cannot confirm or deny that facts. Right. Okay. Well, Patrick, that's my questions. Thank you very much for answering. Always so clear and comprehensive.

Alex, I don't know whether you have anything you'd like to ask. Yeah, well, before we go, Patrick, I just have a simple question. Maybe not so simple. Let's see. Where do the protesters? Do you know where the protesters get all of the EU flags and the EU? Ukraine flags that we're seeing from the videos and the images. Are there people handing this stuff out?

Are there representatives of NGOs or something that are giving the protesters all of these things so that they can wave them around at the main square? Actually, it's a pretty booming street vendor business. There's several, every night, several stands, tables set up with just flags, you know, souvenir magnets, you know, they're getting people to buy souvenirs and flags and then people walk not even 100 meters up the way to the protests. Right. Right.

Okay. Again. All right. Yeah. Makes sense. All right. Patrick Lancaster, thank you very much. Once again, where can people find you and follow your work?

Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. It's great. If anything develops, be sure to give you a call and so we'll try to do this again very soon. but as far as my work, definitely people need to subscribe to my substack. It's the most important, my substack.

And they're going to find all the information there on substack that doesn't come out in my other social media. And of course, my main channel, my YouTube channel is where my big reports go, fully translated, but it, and, And that is another thing that's interesting to point out. As far as talking to the normal people that the next age up, all of them wanted to speak Russian. The younger people, which makes sense, only wanted to speak English for the majority of them.

Some of the ones that were following us last night spoke Russian. But all the old people, elderly people and middle-aged people, wanted to speak Russian during our interview. So that's a little other tidbits. But people see that either this evening or tomorrow when my report comes out. Makes sense. Makes sense. All right. And everyone look out for Patrick's report on his channel.

Also check out his substack. I have the links to those in the description box down below. And I will also add them as a pin comment. Patrick Gladcaster, thank you for joining us. All right. Thank you very much, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you. Take care.