The Duran Podcast - Pushing Georgia into a postmodernist European Union

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

Pushing Georgia into a postmodernist European Union

All right, Alexander, we are here with Lasha Kazrads, and we are also joined by Levann Kigenishvili. And we are going to be discussing the situation in Georgia, in Armenia, perhaps, and in the caucuses in general. So let's begin, first of all, Lasha, where can people follow your work? The national interest, Accura, and the neutrality studies of published articles. on those platforms. Neutrality studies, of course, are a friend and colleague Pascal's specialty. Fantastic. And Levan, welcome to the Duran. A little bit about you and where people can follow your work if you have any links to websites or social. Actually, I'm a teacher. I'm a lecture at Phyllis State University. I teach different courses among them Byzantine culture and

ancient and medieval philosophy, especially Byzantine philosophy, Platonism, Christianity, this kind of stuff. And also I have some guest lecturing, also Invitational Lectures and many of my lectures are recorded in YouTube, mostly are there in Georgian. Few of them are in English or Russian, but mostly they're in Georgian. So I don't have some special podcast or something, but just, and I don't upload my own lectures,

but a lot of them are uploaded on the Internet. All right. My lectures are about philosophy, literature, culture, these kind of things. Fantastic, fantastic. I will have whatever links provided. I will have everything in the description box down on the side. If you type Levangik initially in English, you will have a few lectures in English.

And if you type it in Georgian, you'll have a lot of lectures. In Russian, there are few lectures also in Russian. Great. Great. So let's get started. Alexander, Lasha Levan. Great. I'm looking forward to us. Absolutely. Now, as everybody who watches Durand regularly knows, I was recently in Georgia. I was invited there by Lasha.

Whilst I was in Georgia, I had the enormous pleasure of meeting Levan. And we had one of the most erudite and interesting conversations. I've had for a very, very long time. We were talking about medieval. poetry in the Byzantine world and in Georgia, and we were making comparisons, and it was wonderful conversation. And I was bewildered how I was fascinated that you knew about Georgian, an epic poet, Shota Rustarelli, not because of coming to Georgia, but from your adolescence, I guess, because you said your father

gave it to this book. Absolutely, he certainly did. And I've got it somewhere in the background, in that, amongst those lists of books. But one of the things I also discovered whilst I was in Georgia, and I think it's very clear to anybody who knows this region, the South Caucasus, is that culture and geopolitics and politics are very, very important. And one of the things that was immediately noticeable to me is the enormous role of culture as part of the identity,

of the Georgian people. It is something that is difficult, I think, for people in the West, especially maybe in Western Europe, to grasp that for Georgians, their culture is part of their reason to be. I remember when I was there, several people said to me,

for example, that Georgia's Christian identity was something that they would fight and die for. Very strong language, but that was what I heard people say. And of course, what happened over the last 20 years is that there was a major attempt to assimilate Georgia into the European Union system. And I want to stress the European Union system as apart from Europe. And of course, that came with a whole set of completely different assumptions and presumptions. And it didn't work well because people in Europe, in Brussels, didn't completely understand what Georgia was and the spirit of the Georgian people.

And I'm going to make a guess. I suspect we're going to see the same thing play out in Armenia too. But firstly, Levan, Lasha, do you agree with me? Do you agree that identity, national identity, cultural identity, religious identity also is very, very important in this region as well? And when I want to stress, when I mean by religious identity, I don't mean that people, you know, have tremendous religiosity. It is rather that they identify with a church, with Christianity, it's part of Georgian history, it's part of being a Georgian to relate closely and to be attached to those things.

I'm going to let Levan take this, but the short answer is the resounding yes. Of course it is. But yeah, Levan, please. Yeah, of course, for instance, I have been teaching. teaching Georgian literature at school, for instance, and even Georgian language is very conservative, because kids like of 10th graders can read 5th century Georgian text of martyrdom of Shushanik, for instance, and they can understand it. We feel like, of course, some kind of adaptations, not adaptations, but explanations of some

words which they don't understand now, but still this text is read without adaptation by 10th grade. So the Georgian culture is Christianity, of course, there's a Christian, of course, there are There are some Muslim Georgians as well, but Christianity, for the majority of Georgians, like vast majority of Georgians, is part of their national identity. So in the fourth century, Christianity was preached here by St. Nino of Kapadocia, and since then, Georgia became very deeply, how'd say, deeply involved Christian culture, and it was connected with the great Christian centers of the Christian of Byzantium.

There is lots of monasteries of Georgians were built outside Georgia. We have about 22 monastic establishments in Middle Ages only in Palestine. And this is where Georgians going for good, living for good, the country and going and translating all genres of Christian literature.

So it's very deep and versatile Christian culture with all theological literature translated into Georgian and language itself developed through these translations. and also not only in literature. Of course, literature is a basic thing for spirituality, like this church fathers' translations,

and also its own, their own indigenous spiritual literature, like philosophical texts already in 12th century. Georgians are translating platonic texts already without Christian adaptation, but immediately, and then they elaborate upon it and try to create some kind of synthesis between pagan platonic lore and Christian teaching. So it's a very vibrant culture.

And that of these here hairs, all Georgians are now. And they feel it as part of their dignity and pride and national identity, of course. But as you said, like a European orientation of Georgia is also connected very much with Christianity. Because at the fall of Byzantium, Georgians tried to find their way to find connections with Europe. They had sent a few times envoys to Europe and trying to establish some culture and political connections. But of course, it was very difficult at the time because little Georgia was sandwiched between two great Muslim empires like Persia and Ottomans. And so it was very difficult. It didn't work. But still, Georgians had an attitude that the tragedy of fall of Byzantium should be somehow overcome by establishing connections with Christian Europeans.

And eventually, when Georgia became part of Russian Empire, this idea was also central for Georgian intellectuals who are building New Georgian nation. We should be now – we can have access now through Russia to European culture, European education, and we can now build the new country on this identity of we are Georgians, Christians, but also we adopt everything which the advanced European culture of enlightenment can. offer to us. The first nation builders of Georgia in 19th century, they read there, Emmanuel Gann, Hegel, and they incorporated all those ideas. But at the same time, they were deeply Christian, like Ilya Jaljoad, who is regarded to be a father of Georgian nation. He was very Christian. He is a canonized saint of Georgian church. But at the same time, he was very steeped in European lore and he wanted to show that this processes what we see in Europe, this liberation of labor, this abolition of serf and all those things are providential events which we have

are to embrace in order to be adequate to the historical development. This enlightenment in Georgia was not against Christianity like in the case of something in Europe for instance that the Enlightenment went against church. These were very deeply and people who also embrace European Enlightenment. So that's, yeah. I think that's extremely important. As I said, the Enlightenment in Europe did have, certainly an anti-clerical and anti-church aspect.

And not so in Georgia. Though I would quickly add, and this is something I would ask you both to say, that Georgia is actually a very tolerant place. You see many different types of churches there. There's a Muslim community which seems to practice freely. We're not talking about a place which is very rigid and which is intolerant at all. But it is a place that does self-identify as Christian.

Can I just ask you quickly, is this also true to your knowledge of Armenia as well? unfortunately I don't know so deeply Armenia but by and large probably it is also so because Armenia is also very much connected to Europe and more than in a certain sense physically more than Georgia in sense that there are so many Armenian diasporas in Armenia, France we don't have such kind of

some I would say represented Georgian diaspora in Europe or America So I think Armenian in this sense are just like Georgians in this sense. They also identify themselves as a Christian nation. Yeah, I was told that in Armenia, Georgia became very religious. I mean, where people started to surge churches, not only collapse of Soviet Union, but in the 80s. And it was very much the merit of our patriarch, Ilya the second, who was very charismatic patriarch and he was,

if you can say it instrumental in attracting people to church and youngsters as well. So Georgia became a very church-going nation since late 80s. And still it continues. I'm not sure about the same with Armenia. So in Georgia, it's not only part of cultural identity, but it also has become a religious practice. And this kind of deeply religious, So religion is not simply keeping cultural identity, but as the way to salvation, this kind of thing.

So Georgia has been becoming more Christian in some ways, and at the same time, it's been establishing closer connections with the West. Yeah, it may sound like. So for Georgians, when they ask, what is for Europe, what is European integration, we still somehow bind large. I think about Europe in terms of this modernist, this Enlightenment Europe with Emmanuel Gandh and the Hegel and this kind of understanding that it's advanced civilization, with its democracy. So this kind of traditional understanding of Europe, if you ask ever Georgia, that's what they will respond, why they want Europe. But we don't, we have not estimated this postmodern Europe.

with this diffidence and ontological crisis and like abolition, almost we can say abolition of ontology and truth. This and with all the answering problems with it, I don't think in Georgia there is a thought about it and we are coping with it. But when it hits us with some kind of, I don't know, propositions that are familiar to very traditional thinking Georgians, that can create some kind of misunderstanding or even hostility.

I mean, that's the point, is it? Because we even have people in Europe quite openly talking about post-Christian Europe, not just post-Modernism, but post-Christian, a Europe that is secularizing very, very rapidly, that is moving exactly the opposite direction. Yeah, I remember I was at Oxford conference, patristic conference, where all these patristic scholars of church fathers gathered. And from afar, I saw very nice little Gothic cathedral, not cathedral, little church, gothic church. And I approached it and I wanted to see what was inside, how beautiful it was inside.

And then it was written there, just in the practicing so this conference. The church has become redundant, and it has become now a storehouse of business. books or something. So for me it was kind of symbolic that it was a big patristic conference and then a church has become redundant. This kind of contrast was kind of telling, kind of symbolic. But yeah, I mean, in Georgia, there is not such a kind of attitude as in the West, when churches largely are getting empty and Christianity has become becoming like an obsolete even. And then sometimes even considered even as hostile to modern developments, like as they would say, traditional or outdated positions.

But in Georgia, by and large, people believe in ontological truths of Christianity and in gospels. And if it comes at odds with modern positions, which they can collide with being exposed to some Western positions, then I guess more Georgians would side with the, the Gospels and traditional positions, then embrace the new positions which are a thought with it. Because this is exactly what happens. Because there's this major push to bring Georgia into the European Union. I can remember your former president making speeches with the European Union flag next to him. And of course, the Europe that he was trying to join is a Europe, but he's not.

not only going in the opposite direction, but which expects its members, the parts of countries that join to it, to adapt themselves to its own postmodernist, post-Christian value system. It's very, very insistent on this. It is not understood in this terms by majority of Georgians who want to join European Union. For them, again, joining European Union is to join the great European culture, Bach and Mozart and Emmanuel Gandh and all this democracy, which is against totalitarianism and advanced technologies, all in the high level of life, so to say this, medication system,

and all these things, this is what they consider as zero. But if you ask Georgian, do you want to, how would say, normalize, let's say transgender transgender is majority of the same people who are ready to join EU they will say no and we don't want to normalize such things because it's an ontological incorrect they would say not in this philosophical terms may be but they will they will express it their kind of their refusal for for these kind of things In this sense, that's what I say. In 19th century, there was a big intellectual work among Georgian men of letters and intellectuals

to somehow understand European culture of their own time and accommodated to Georgian situation. This fundamental divergence, I mean, was it one of the things that created the political clash that explains why there's been this major breakdown in relations between the Georgian government, which is quite clear to me is supported by most people in Georgia. I mean, that was one thing that was absolutely obvious to me when I was there. And the European Union, the European Union and the Georgian government, the relationship has completely broken down. Is it partly because of these fundamental philosophical different?

differences that Levin was talking about. Alexander, absolutely, this was going to be my next answer, actually, and Levin has alluded to this. So there has been, in my view, if you look at the literature, this duality, this within the genealogy of where Georgia has always found itself. There is metaphysical aspect of Georgians wanting to become Europeans or join Europe, sort of metaphysical, sort of cultural understanding of what that means. Right? There is Europe.

There is high culture. But then there is, and everything that Levant said, and we've all been all alluded to, so from philosophy to the way of looking at life, generally speaking, to literature. Harold Bloom always comes to mind where we're just talking about it yesterday with his 10 canonical works of Europe, right? That's the type of stuff

that Georgians sort of in their metaphysical sort of mental state always adhered to. And then we have material state. We have sort of this, you know, Hegelian, Marxist, sort of dialectical, materialism where we want to change the epoch and we want to go into, you know, join the West, become the part of the Western civilization. Now we're talking from economics to geopolitics,

to stateness, to statehood of Georgia, how we perceive it. So just to give you a brief answer, of course there is a big split. There is a huge duality there, philosophical duality, within the genealogy of these ideas. On the one hand, Georgians sort of metaphysically admiring and wanting to go into the Western civilization, sociocultural sphere.

And then you have this ugly, if you will, material reality where you have, you know, good old-fashioned international relations. right that comes in and opposes all that, so checks it and sort of it's as if, you know, it's a reality check, if you will. And I would argue that to this end, Georgia, to this day, Georgia has been struggling within that duality. And in fact, Levan can probably, you know, knows more about this, but strictly from international relations perspective, this Georgievsky-TRACT has been bugging me when the Georgian king of 18th century, what was it, 1721, Levant, I think it was,

the Georgi of the Second, the treaty with Russia, the imperial Russia. That, to this day, 17, what is it? Yeah. So, so, so to this day, geopolitically speaking, that is a non, that is sort of a forbidden area of study in Georgia because it is perceived as selling out to Russia or a non-European sort of imperial state. And yet there is this other scholarly research that in my view has to be done that will say, wait a minute, was it the case of pragmatism? Was it the case of geopolitics that that was that that compelled the king um um uh king directly to sign that treaty with russia

as a state survival so you see how this duality you know this this is metaphysical romanticized version of joining the west and then you have sort of the real ugly side of i mean you you're you're confronted with the reality of the west today which is not the same as the west that you are imagined that's basically yes yes yes yes For Georgians in 19th century, Russia was somehow the aspect of Europe, of course, Eastern world Europe, but still Europe, because Russia in Russian universities, especially in St. Petersburg University, they got European education. Where did they read all those European authors in San

Petersburg? That's why they call themselves like Tergdale-Uln, which means those who have drunk from River Terek, which is a poor-jerk. line river from Georgia to Russia. And Terek, to drink from Terek, it meant for them to have drunk from European, modern European education, so to say, and to bring this education to Georgia. That's how they built a new Georgian nation. In this sense, this propensity of Georgians to join Europe is very deep-seating this kind of thing, which was created already in 19th century by nation builders. Under this eaggis, of this. these nation builders, still Georgian identity thrives now.

But of course, they could not have how to predict what Europe will be like. And also, the concrete European institutions and concrete European politicians can do some ugly things, can say lies and can be unjust. And European injustice and Asian injustice, both are the same injustice. So when Georgians see that some functionaires of the European Union are very mildly to say in just toward Georgia, yes? So then they have

skepticism not towards Europe as such, but towards these functionaires who are prominent in these European structures. Can I ask about what's been happening to the education system in Georgia? Because this is one of the things that I heard some people talking about,

that in fact, this was one area where again the pressure from Europe. And maybe the United States too was particularly strong and that there was attempts to reshape the university systems to bring them into alignment, if you like, with the more post-modernist, post-Christian ideas that are current in Europe. I mean, is this, I mean, I know that you are at a university, obviously, Levant,

so you're probably familiar with this. But is this something that has happened and what has been the response of Georgian society to this? We joined Bologna process, and the Bologna process is, some liked it, some didn't like it. There are some classes and minuses with Bologna process. Joining Bologna process allows you to this big amount of mobility between students, professors and giving access to different education outlets. But some people were against the Bologna process,

because Bologna process is oriented more towards like changing pattern of education, that you are not learning some eternal things, so to say, and like the steady things, but you are adjusting the education to the changing milieu, changing market, let's say. And that, I would say, it's a detriment with fundamental studies. So there was this kind of, there was this kind of criticism of the joining of Bologna process. As concerned me, I teach such things that are only eternal and only, I'll say, fundamental, because if you are teaching Byzantine theology and, I don't know, St. Basil the Great and St. S. Simons, a new theologian and discuss the ideas.

They're always eternal and always, they're not subject to some kind of modifications. And so with regard of my field of studies, I try to be updated. I read a lot of new things, new researches, but usually it is very, all the time, very fundamental. And it bypass all those great tradition, all this great tradition which was already created in discussion of those authors. So, yeah, what I can say, the usual position, like this kind of Western, modern Western position, expressed in Karl Popper's idea of open society, it's a luller. in a certain sense and it has positive aspects. But when you read also Popper in his open society, you see that there is a basic crisis

of ontology. There is kind of abolition of this understanding of traditional truth that is a sacrosanct thing, which you can, you should discover and keep it and, I would say, cultivate it. There is kind of the great skepticism about the existence of such things. It's not only from Nietzsche that God is dead. God is dead, is dead, is dead. This was an entire movement of European thought, which came against this traditional understanding of truth and ontology.

But Georgians, I think, by and large, remained very traditional in this sense. Even if you don't find philosophical, I hope to say Georgian who has not read one philosophical text, still this understanding is there is truth and there is a tradition that is hooked with this truth. you can find buying large among Georgian society. Do you think people in Europe understand any of this? I mean, do you think, do you think in Brussels, Ursula von der Leyen and her officials,

who are obviously briefed about the situation in Georgia, really understand that these concerns exist in a place like Georgia, that people have these attachments that? I don't think they understand it. Otherwise, they would not have treated Georgia like this because as I told you this kind of injustice. Yes, for instance, there were elections in Georgia. By and large elections were kind of considered also by European observers OSCA, ODIROSCA and as kind of reliable. Yeah, there were some discrepancies, some kind of problems as always there with all elections.

By and large, this number of electorate and their choice was represented. But can I just ask you, Lasha, this question? Because isn't this the cause of the crisis? And isn't this going to be the cause of the crisis in Armenia as well, in the sense? That Georgia, maybe Armenia, feeling their way towards Europe, which absolutely doesn't understand them and wants them to be something completely different from what they actually are. It doesn't want to understand them.

It doesn't really have any sense that these traditions, these things that Levin was talking about, have any real place in modern society or in the modern European Union, as it has been constructed now. After all, countries like Poland, which also have their own traditions, where many people want to cling to, are already having these same problems

from within the European Union. I guess that in Georgia and Armenia, it's probably even, the gap is even greater. So, I mean, how is this going to work? It's like mixing fire and water, as far as I can see. Yes, there is a huge contrast there. And, of course, there is that problem.

There is this very strong sociocultural aspect to everything that we've been talking about. Hence, I believe, Trump's election in the United States. I mean, this played an enormous role. This neoliberal post-modernist, you know, this, after the Unipolar moment was, after the Soviet Union broke up and the unipolar moment was established, everything seems to me was, there was an attempt made to delete basic core understanding of what construct, what makes up a society, common belief, self-identity.

And it was mixed within, you know, call it neoliberalism. You know, it was mixed within geopolitics, within international relations. And the idea was, you know, I'm going to stick to my guns and say to delete, to flatten hierarchies of this sort. I think this is what, no, I think this is what's returning. now, and that's the problem. You know, so, so sociocultural domestic affairs of peoples, right, were ignored. They were marginalized and replaced by this sort of push, push, push, you know, this sort of,

you know, unfettered, you know, values-based democracy promotion, which really was not a democracy promotion. And finally, chickens have come home to roost because this is a lot of serious people were warning about the negative effects of these policies. So to answer your question, of course there is. And Europe that Levan and, you know, we've all been talking about that Georgia has its collective mind is not the Europe that it was at once. It was perhaps, you know, you know, several decades ago even. But it's been completely gutted out, if you will. And Georgia is sort of how somehow is left all by itself,

sort of still wishing and daydreaming about the good old Europe. But I don't think it's to be found anywhere. Found anywhere. Well, I think this is all very interesting. And I think this is going to develop. But I'm going to make it just a general point. when there is this level of misunderstanding, which I think there is, then to the extent that there is a big geopolitical play being carried out in Georgia

and in the South Caucasus by the West, it cannot succeed because the foundations for it to succeed are simply not there. You need to have an attachment, a degree of compatibility for it. to be able to succeed. I just wanted to say, firstly, that as I said, I was saying to Lasha, that given that we have these fundamental misunderstandings, both on the European side and on the Georgian side, and I'm sure that Armenia is a little different,

to the extent that we see a geopolitical project being playing out in the South Caucasus, when there is such a massive degree of misunderstanding, I wonder whether it, I doubt that it can be successful, but I'm sure it cannot be successful, because you are mixing two incompatible things. It's like mixing, as I said, far and water with each other. Can I just say something real quick to that effect? I think this is all about social engineering. To repeat, you know, Mir Schuymer repeats this phrase a lot. When we go out there trying to socially engineer societies. But there is also the idea that the fact that Georgia refused to do it, to be succumbed to it.

And so many other, you know, Orban's Hungary refused to do it. And so this is what is being hated in Europe, in Brussels, and to a large extent in Washington, right? that how can we mold these old world countries to our own, into our own image? So I think, and then they approach this through liberal language, which is, which they've reached this totalitarian point where they don't, where I wonder if there is point of return at this point. They've gone too far. I agree.

And so, yeah. Just to say one very, one, but very quick point. of course we're talking about the European Union. We are not talking about Europe. I mean, this is one of the other things that's happening. The European Union defines Europe as itself. But Europe has never been the European Union before the European Union was established. I mean, this is a, I mean, Georgia, Armenia, Hungary, Poland, all of these places that we're talking about are Europe, but they're not.

they may not be compatible with the current project that the European Union has become. Anyway, this is where I'm going to finish. I'm just going to hand over to Alex in case Alex has some, well, to fill up any points. Let's just, we'll wrap it up. Yes. Thank you, Lasha. Thank you, Levan, for joining us. And we hope to have you soon on Adiria.

Thank you so much, both of you. Thanks. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, bye. Take care. Bye-bye.