The Duran Podcast - Trump diplomacy with Russia w/ Dennis Kucinich (Live)

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Trump diplomacy with Russia w/ Dennis Kucinich (Live)

All right, we are live with Alexander Mercuris in London. And once again, we are very happy and very honored to have with us on the Duran. Mr. Dennis Kucinich, Mr. Kucinich, welcome back to the Duran. It's a pleasure to have you with us. Thank you, Alex, and thank you, Alexander. I look forward to our discussion. Fantastic. And I have the links of where you can follow Dennis Kucinich's work, his websites,

and his social media. It is in the description box down below. and I will also add those links as a pit comment. So, gentlemen, we have a lot of news to discuss in and around Ukraine and the peace talks between Trump and Russia and the Europeans and Zelenskyy. So Alexander, Mr. Dennis Kucinich, let's begin. And who better to discuss all this with than Dennis Kucinich, who's been a voice of sanity, reason, humanity, and common sense

about foreign policy for as long as I can remember. and he's always been an advocate for peace, for looking for peaceful resolutions to problems, where they can be found. He's played a big role in advocating for peace in the United States and not just advocating for peace, but organizing for peace in the United States. Peace both at home in the United States

and in terms of international relations. Peace between our. ourselves and all nations. As a US president, a former US president, Abraham Lincoln once said, I'm not, I've not set it out quite correctly. But anyway, that's what Dennis Kucinich has been doing. And we have a president who perhaps without having quite the qualities of Abraham Lincoln has been trying to make peace or seems to be trying to make peace.

In Alaska, he's spoken to the president of Russia. He's spoken to the president of Ukraine today. He's spoken to the European leaders. And I don't know whether this is entirely correct about the United States. But here in Europe, we are so obsessed with war that instead of being happy about it and welcoming it, we seem to be deeply upset and dismayed about the fact that this president is trying to achieve peace. But perhaps I'm being over-optimistic and perhaps I'm misjudging the man, is Alaska a serious attempt to make peace? Mr. Kucinich, and tell us what your thoughts about is.

Yes. You know, for whatever reasons, the moment arrived, that it did arrive, that the President of the United States welcomed the President of Russia to to U.S. territory, U.S. state of Alaska, that in and of itself signal they shift. For some people, it was stunning for others. They default to the partisan analysis. But I will say that this was and is a major development. And that in a three-hour meeting that President Putin and President Trump had, it's quite possible that they have laid the groundwork for talks that will arrive at the end of the war in Ukraine.

Because negotiations are the way to end wars, and one of the most extraordinary and alarming facts about the last four years, or at least the period before President Trump was inaugurated, is the fact that we had no negotiations or talks at all. And this is one of the most extraordinary things, that in Europe, they are very, very angry that we are talking to the Russians.

Now, you were there through the Cold War. You remember all those summit meetings that the United States at that time had with the Soviet Union, which is a much bigger adversary of the United States and of the West than Russia today is. And nobody at that time said, we should not speak to the Russians. But today, far too many people do.

Why is that? Why has that changed? And can you explain the dangers of that? Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought that up, and I'll tell you why. Because one must remember that since the overthrow, since the U.S. government engineered the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014, there has been an increased drumbeat against Russia. And as a result of that drumbeat, which included things like Russiagate,

the phony charge that Russia somehow was affected the 2016 U.S. election, you have an arc of animosity that was generated. It didn't have to be real. It ends up being real when people keep hearing it over and over and over, not only in a state, but throughout Europe, you know, Russia this, Russia, that 14,000 Russian-speaking Ukrainians are killed from the advance of the Ukrainian army inspired by the U.S. And Russia races to defend people, and suddenly it's an invasion. I think that there's always a challenge to bring about peace

when you've had this kind of incessant drumbeat about conjuring up an enemy and amplifying and amplifying it. But this is what leadership's about. Leaders always are always going to have to be ahead of the curve because their publics in order to support massive arms. spending have to be driven to this position of hating the other. And that is the conundrum here. In order to reach peace, you have to get the public to accept it. But they may not accept any kind of a deal right away, but this is what leadership's about. And I think President Trump and

President Putin, in this case, have demonstrated the ability to sit down, to create a breakthrough. And in the last few days, European leaders in Washington, President Zelensky in Washington, and suddenly you have some motion towards the possibility that the war could be ended. But as far as public opinion about Russia, look, how could people think anything but that? because that's all they heard was, you know, Russia this, Russia that, Russia's bad, you know, and everyone else is good. I'm glad that this moment arrived because it gives us a chance to kind of break through the doldrums of propaganda.

What do you think is going to come next? I mean, there's some talk about a Putin-Trump, Zelensky summit meeting, a trilateral summit meeting. there's also talk about more negotiations, things of that kind. Do you think we're going to see a follow-up meetings between Trump and all of these people? Alexander, there's already a process for discussion between Russia and Ukraine, and it's in Istanbul. So I would expect that would be the basis for continuing to explore what kind of a deal could result in the end of the war. But the one thing that's happened, and it happened in Alaska, is that you had two major world leaders come together and make a determination that they want the war to end.

And, you know, how that happens, well, that's going to remain to be seen. But it doesn't end unless you have people coming together saying that they want to end it. Can I just quickly ask President Trump, just before we did this program, there's been information about this in the media today. He has ruled out the possibility of American troops being sent to Ukraine. It's good that he did that, by the way, because it's all over the media here yesterday that he had actually decided to send American troops to Ukraine. What is your sense of this? And would any proposal to send American troops to Ukraine find widespread support? in the United States?

Well, not a chance. I mean, if President Trump recognized that's a non-starter. And what, but to elaborate, what the U.S. position has evolved to is this. We're not going to send any weapons to Ukraine. Security guarantees can be Air Force, for example. But this now is going over to the EU and the EU. and NATO are going to have to work together to provide any kind of weapons that Ukraine might need to defend itself in the interim.

But the U.S. is out of that armed trafficking to Ukraine, which I think is immensely important. What a progression that is from the Biden administration, which was lobbying missiles towards Moscow, on World War III, and now President Trump, who I want to be clear, I could disagree with him on 99 out of 100 things, but on this one, this is the world importance, and he deserves to be supported in this effort to end this war. And so, you know, the moment has arrived that we can create a new direction towards peace, but the U.S. abundantly. clear, Europe is going to have to start paying the bill if that's what they want. And frankly, Alex and Alexander, if the total burden of that is going to put on Europe, people in Europe

aren't going to stand for it either. They're just going to say, look, let's be done with this. And I think that's the kind of the pressure that the Trump administration is bringing onto Europe. because what happens? What does Europe gain if the war ends? They gain the end of war. They gain not having to keep funding it. They gain being able to focus on their own domestic concerns. And so, but one of the things that came out in the discussion with, in Alaska,

was President Putin's remark about understanding how this all began. Yeah. And most people don't remember or they don't know. And that is that the U.S. overthrew the government of Ukraine and put that government on a march towards attacking eastern Ukraine and the Oblasts in Dernescu Hans. And that's how it started. And I think we have to recognize that a democratic administration helped to generate that. And President Trump is in a position to end it. And I'm

glad that he's making this attempt. Can I say something here? Because I'm glad you brought up Europe and I'm glad you brought up the history, the past of this. I have never remembered time until very recently when Europe was so much more aggressive about Russia than the United States was, at least not in my lifetime. No doubt it was true before. But historically, at least within my lifetime, the Europeans were always worried about the Americans being too aggressive on the Russians and were trying to be a restraint on them.

That was certainly true during the Cold War period that I remember. It's a complete reversal today that the Americans want peace and the Europeans in their own continent seem so, set on war. And I completely agree with you that we need peace in Europe. But can you talk about why the United States might also need peace with Russia? Because it's clear to me that it's the United States that has to make the decisions now. Because in Europe, we are in a political situation where we can't make decisions at all. But well, there's two parts here, question. The first part deals with where Europe is vis-à-vis Russia.

As we mentioned earlier in this discussion, there's been this drumbeat of anti-Russian propaganda, which has really now been ingrained into the consciousness of leaders and constituencies across Europe. And that's been, you know, primarily just a drumbeat of propaganda. So the reality is this, Alexander. The reality is that Europe can't go to war with Russia. It can't afford it. It doesn't have the troops. It doesn't have the arms.

It doesn't have the budget. So this is reduced to a level of street corner mouthing off. You have, you know, so Trump, President Trump's actually doing the EU a favor. He's showing leadership which can extricate the EU from this untenable position, which the EU is in. Now, why is the EU in that position? This is where the incestuous relationship between NATO and the EU comes into play.

Because NATO's mission essentially has turned into trying to conquer Russia. It's foolhardy, it's stupid. it's never going to happen. And NATO has been on this mission. So NATO is like a virus that's infiltrated the decision-making in the EU. And to my way of thinking, NATO's an anachronism. NATO shouldn't exist anymore. Why do sovereign nations need a sock puppet to put their feelings forward or to, to mimic aggression when it's up to the leaders of those countries to figure out a way to have peaceful relations with all countries around them. And yet NATO has to keep inflating this image of Russia wants to take over all of Europe in order to justify its own existence. So maybe one of

the things that can happen in this peace agreement is further curtailing and limiting the role of NATO, because NATO is turned into a monster. And, you know, it's a creation of sovereign nations, and it has become the master of those sovereign nations, and it has no role in making peace. And what about the United States? What does the United States gain from peace with Russia? I mean, this is a simple question, but a lot of people don't ask themselves it. We spend a trillion dollars a year now on the military.

And for those in the U.S., and there are people in the government, to be sure, who are conjuring up a war with Russia, even a nuclear war, that budget becomes primary importance. It's a defining part of who we are as Americans. Well, that's baloney too. We can't even meet the housing needs of our people. We can't meet the educational needs of our people. We can't meet the health needs of our people.

And we're spending a trillion dollars a year on the military. So what does the U.S. get? It gets a reason to take care of our own people here at home. It gets a reason to find a way, perhaps, to rebuild relations with Russia. So our dollar isn't threatened by the combination of Brazil, Russia, India, China, Iran, and others. I mean, there's a lot more at stake here than just building down arms, demilitarizing a society that has existed primarily for militarization.

We protect our own economy in doing that. So, you know, this is a win, win, win, win situation for the U.S., for Ukraine and for Russia. And we're not going to be able to bring back the almost million Russians who have lost their lives in this. We're not going to be able to bring back the 600,000 Ukrainians who have lost their lives. But maybe what we can bring back is a peace consciousness, is an awareness that we do have a lot more in common as human beings. And we have differences. And if we can solve our political differences, perhaps we can find that peaceful coexistence is truly, possible. Now, you mentioned that one of the causes of the war, the ultimate, proximate

course of the war, was the overthrow of the Ukrainian government effectively by the United States. Why? Why does the United States want to overthrow the government of Ukraine? Why? Who gains in the United States from these sort of policies? I mean, you've explained very well why it is in the interest of the United States of peace and to concentrate on its own pressing domestic problems. But clearly there are a lot of people in the United States, powerful people, who have different views because they seem to want to meddle in Ukrainian affairs and Russian affairs and to provoke wars and to engage in armed spending. Can you tell us a little bit about these people? Well, first of all, Ukraine's a proxy. Let's understand it.

Ukraine was a staging area for an advance against Russia. That's all it was. And yet the horrible price, the Ukrainian people have paid for this cancerous type politics that results only in death is a scar on the history of the world. But the U.S. helped formulate that. So we have to remember that the U.S., in our history, particularly since World War II, has been greatly involved in overturning one government and another. It's almost like a cottage industry.

However, this remains a central challenge to who we are as a nation. Our foreign policy must turn away from intervention, from colonialism, from domination, from this megalomaniacal pension for believing that it's up to us to control and rule the world. all, that has to be jettisoned with the detritus of history, and we must regain our place as a nation among nations, not in a unipolar world, but in a multipolar world, because that's where we are. So, you know, every nation has to progress. Every nation has to recognize its history and find out, is there a moment that we have the capacity to evolve and be more than we are and better than we are as a country? I think America has that capacity. But the leadership to help potentiate that is often not there.

In this example, the Trump administration has shown it it's possible to create a breakthrough. And it doesn't mean we don't have all kinds of problems we have to talk about. But peace is the precondition for being able to resolve everything else. If you don't have peace, you're out of luck. The world's gone. And let us not forget that there was only this past. September, with the Biden administration amping up the potential of a nuclear World War III, that we really were in a position of great danger. And so to come from there to where we are

today is imperative. And again, I will say it, well, I have a number of disagreements with President Trump. On this one, he deserves support in trying to end this war. I agree. Now, he's not, the place where he's going to get some of pressure from, it seems to me, is Congress and in particular the Senate. And this is what I don't understand. Why is the Senate so hawkish always in US foreign policy? I mean, I get the sense that there's more diversity of opinion in the House, which, of course, you know very well. You were there for a long time. But why is the Senate always the place, which is so hawkish. Why are they coming up with plans to sanction and tariff pretty much everybody who trades with Russia and Russians themselves? Why do they come up with more

$55 billion packages to support Ukraine? And how dangerous are they? And what can the Senate do? Well, if they come up with more money for Ukraine, the administration doesn't have to spend it. Yeah. That's number one. And number two, in Alaska, there was nothing discussed about tariffs for either Russia or India. So, you know, let's look at that. Now, as far as the U.S. Senate, you know, there are individuals in the Senate, like Senators McConnell and Graham, who are in veteran hawks, who are determined to keep stirring stuff up. But, you know, there's a deeper analysis that goes beyond the scope of this discussion as to why people,

people want war. Yeah. I, you know, if you've seen it and I've seen it in a couple different place around the world, why wouldn't anybody want to promote that? You know, part of it is a continuum of activity in support of a Cold War. An idea, people, when people take a position, you stake out a position. out a position. This is one of the fact of politics in life. People stake out a position of being anti-Russia, Russian. It becomes a cherished notion, and you have to maintain that position

because that's what you identify as, okay? And if you, and if all of a sudden you don't have the dexterity to say, well, yeah, you know, maybe we ought to have peace. You're stuck. You're You're like a fossil in amber, and you can't move. And so you'll be interesting for historians to analyze, but you're not going to really have any effect on the events of today, and that's why President Trump need support from the American people to move these people who are at this point recalcitrant and who don't want to do anything that could result in a move towards peace with Russia.

and the end of the war in Ukraine. And a much broader architecture of peace, which is possible if we come to this agreement. This has a ripple effect, and that's why we ought to embrace it. When you see a moment like this, it's like, please keep building it out. Can I just follow up on that, to ask something which I think you might have, some insight into, could it be that the House, members of the House, because they're elected every two years, and are elected by congressional districts, are much closer to genuine public sentiment than members of the Senate who are elected for six years by much, much larger constituencies, which they don't have the same kind of level of granular contact with people there?

And I ask that question because I get the sense that most people in the United States absolutely do not want war. They support policies of peace. Anyway, just again to throw this out, because it's something that maybe you have some of you about. You know, I understand that thinking about people who have to return more frequently for approval, have to be a little bit more cautious in their decision-making, especially with respect to war. However, tone deafness doesn't have a term limit. There are people in both the House and a Senate who are willing to engender one war and another. Don't forget, when 30 members of the Democratic caucus who happen to be progressives wrote a letter to President Biden asking for a path to be explored towards ending the conflict in Ukraine, they were cashier.

by their leadership. And this is one of the reasons why, you know, in my view, you know, I've been a Democrat my whole life, but I look at the Democratic Party and it's a party of war based on one of those, you know, an incident like that. And so both the House and a Senate have been approving the war in Ukraine. And just as they've approved, the, war against the Palestinians and Gaza and the West Bank. The U.S. has to shift its view of the world. Our leadership has to take a different position about agreeing to the deaths of other people,

thousands of miles from our own shores. This is, you know, we have to move away from this dichotomized thinking of us versus them, whoever they are, and come. to a point where we start to understand that we have so much in common with people around the world. But our politics really has been sick on this issue of war and aggression. And it's very costly. And it's resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people globally. And it's time for it to stop. One place to stop it is in Russia and Ukraine, and another place to stop it is in Gaza.

Indeed. Can we just stick with Russian Ukraine at the moment, but perhaps we will say something about Gaza as well. Do you get the sense that most Americans support what President Trump did in Alaska? Because I do, by the way. I haven't seen any opinion polls, but I don't think that there's any appetite in the United States to continue with this war. I think people are tired of it. I think they're frustrated by it. the sense that on balance, they may not understand all the details, but their instinct is to support the president in this. What is your view about that? Well, I wish that were true. Yeah. But there is a highly polarized political landscape in America, where if a president

happens to be a Republican, in this case, a very polarizing Republican president, Donald Trump, You know, one of the outcomes of that is no matter what he does, there are people are going to say, eh, or shame on him, you know, and that does happen. And, you know, this is part and parcel of the kind of polarized thinking that puts us on a path to war continually. And that's why, as someone who's a Democrat, and I have run as an independent in protest to my party, as a Democrat, I say the Democrats sort of support what President Trump is doing here to end this war. There are those who will just say, well, you're not a Democrat, you're not a good Democrat. Look, that's all stuff for, you know, that's almost childish.

We've got to focus on what's the purpose of our country here. And America should be in a position of fostering peace instead of inciting war. Which is what previous Democrats, President Roosevelt, President Kennedy, people like that, that was what they stood for, and that was what they sought to achieve, which people tend to overlook. You brought up the subject of Gaza, so I'm going to ask you about this. Do you get the sense that there is a change, a major change in American policy, on the part of the American public about Gaza? I get the sense that people are profoundly upset and shocked by what is happening. I've noticed that people, people whom I've known, their views have shifted.

Is that also your sense? And is this going to stay? Is this going to make a difference in the future? future. What you just said is very hopeful. And there certainly are a number of Americans who are horrified at the events in Gaza. I saw a video the other day of a young girl who was just returning to her sanctuary with some water. and the IDF vaporized her with some kind of a drone strike, but just a young girl.

And I look at this and I think, you know, what is the awareness behind that that would that would impel such a murderous response? I think there's a lot of Americans who are becoming increasingly concerned. But there's also those who, let's face it, It's not that people don't care. They're riveted on their own daily experience of trying to make ends meet. It's becoming more and more difficult for Americans to be able to make the money to meet their budget. They're going deeper into debt.

They're having trouble paying rent or if they own a home, mortgage. They usually are having difficulty affording college for their children. they can't meet their medical expenses. They haven't been able to put enough money away for retirement. These are the kinds of things and the cost of food. These are the kinds of things that keep people riveted to their own daily lives and their own desire just to survive. And when that happens to be able to think of the world outside, you just don't have,

you know, it's very difficult to do that. And I mean, I understand this in a very unique way based on the way I grew up. And, you know, I will just tell you that as Americans have had the chance to really become acquainted with what's going on there, yeah, they want a different direction. But many Americans are just, they're just riveted to their own personal struggles daily. And there's a lot of those. I just, Dennis Cassini, just to finish on that, because you've just said, I mean, for me, the Democrat, party that I remember, the one of which you were apart, it was there to support people like the ones you've just described. And the great problem with the Democratic Party today is that

he's completely forgotten that and forgotten those people. That's my last point. I don't know whether you want to respond to it or not, but I just wanted to say also thank you for joining us on this program. Alexander and Alex, thanks to both of you. And I still have hope for America. I think it does have the ability to adapt, but we have to confront some of the difficult truths of the militarization that's overtaken our society.

Dennis Kucinich, thank you very much. Thank you for coming on our program. Appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, Alexander.

We have to do a hard stop in about 10 minutes, so let's just go through the questions, what we can get to, and we'll wrap this up. Let me just pull everything up. Jacqueline, welcome to the Dren community. Phil, welcome to the Duran. American Rebel, welcome to the Duran. Commander Crossfire says,

Roses are red, deadlines are near. I'm busy today and every day this year. Elza says the Europeans kiss up to Trump but they never doubt the elections that Trump lost to Biden that should be a side for Trump and who is on his side true true Zizi Karyanis thank you for that super sticker Jacqueline thank you for that super chat

double down says Hannibal might as well have salted Carthage himself winning battles made him arrogant never underestimate your enemy who have sworn to destroy you Tomir, welcome to the drag community. Sparky says, Dennis, hasn't there been too much industry consolidation in the U.S. over the last 50 years? Shouldn't the U.S. government stop the war? That is an excellent question, which we will help keep back for the next time we have him more.

We need to discuss America and its realities. But as I said, well, I'll remember that question. It's a good question. Yeah, we'll do a video with Dennis focused on the U.S. next time to get a line. Yeah. Yes. From Hubert, thank you for that super sticker, which says, good job. Thank you for that.

Cobfan says, the Western world is ruled by psychopaths and administered by sociopaths. Harry C. Smith says, please ask Dennis where he got to the one million Russian, 600,000 Ukraine dead. Well, it's all over the place. I'd say something quickly about that. In every other respect, I found him exceptionally well informed. part of the crisis. I was impressed by how well informed he was, just to say. Yeah, those numbers. Those numbers. Dennis Thervantes, thank you for that super chat. Jamila says, thank you so much,

Duran for your great work. I think Russia is not forgetting to give the West, not forgetting what the West did to them, I'm scared for the future. Nicos says Mr. Kucinich, with respect, Russia's losses are 120,000. Well, as I said, well, I'm sure I knew the moment he said that, I knew people would come back. Focus on the more important things. Let's not get, as somebody once put it to be rather well, let's not worry too much about the scaffolding. Let's look at the building behind it. The important points that he made are absolutely valid.

And as I said, overall, I found him extremely well informed. I was surprised by how well informed he was. Michael Russell says, as an old man with nine grandchildren and a compromised heart, I don't know how much more of Trump's nuclear brigsmanship, peacemaking, and I can handle. Yeah, I understand that, actually. Jason Yoros says, thank you, gentlemen, as always for your work. Thank you, Jason.

Elsa says, sorry for being sarcastic, but the first lady asked the president of Russia to save the javelins and javelinas. That Melania letter. We might actually come back to it eventually because Alex is used that it was a troubling letter. And I agree. I think it's going to have a lot of bad consequences going forward. Well, you talked about it in your video, Alexander, with Clinton. Graham talking about designating Russian as a terror state, right? Terror state, exactly, yes.

And then he bases it on that letter. Exactly. Which Trump handed to him in Alaska, right? And then it was leaked. Exactly. The whole thing is said. A whole thing's very, very ugly. It's very ugly and very disturbing.

Yeah. I think that's everything. Alexander. Let me just do one more. Iranian kiddo says, I thought this would be interesting to Alexander. he mentioned Bilarian earlier after his capture along the estimated 70,000, along with the estimated 70,000 men, they were tasked with building a bridge by Shapur in southeast Iran. Oh, right. Okay. I didn't know that. Klaus says Trump's mission yesterday was to get Zelensky to agree to work towards a path to peace.

Everything else was just noise. I completely agree with you. And Irani Kido says, society. The Palestinians named it Valerian, so in English it's known as Valerian Bridge or Caesar's Bridge, but the remains of it still exist with many arches intact. It is considered the easternmost Roman-style bridge slash dam in existence. I didn't know any of this. Iranian kid, we must get to know each other better. We obviously have many great things that interests in common.

And from one second, one second, there's one more here from Bob's Magooly. Thank you very much, Duran. Thank you for that. Bob. Alexander, your final thoughts before we sign. I thought first of a very great program. I think that I have little to say about Dennis Kucinich, apart from the fact that I find myself in very, very profound agreement with him. And I do wish he was still in Congress, and I do wish his voice was still heard in the corridors of power in Washington, because we need more, more people like him. And we should certainly listen to him now. So that's what I wanted to say. But I think he's absolutely right. I think the person who said in the comments that it's all noise, apart from the fact that Trump got close. Yeah, exactly. I was absolutely. correct. Too much noise, unfortunately. There's so much noise that it's difficult sometimes to keep one's head clear. But ultimately, that is right. It does matter to a certain extent. For example,

the casualties do matter what the media is putting out there as casualties because you could make the argument that it definitely does influence, say, the hawkish U.S. decision to continue to escalate, right? And it does influence people's support for the conference. if you start putting out skewed or inaccurate numbers. But anyway, yeah. Spark says I'm sure the Deep State has people specifically curating Melania's social media algorithms. Absolutely.

Absolutely, she does. Absolutely, you're right on that one, Sparky. Okay, that's everything. Thank you to everyone who joined us on this live stream. Thank you once again to our moderators, Peter and Sario and Harry. And who else for today's earlier live stream and this live stream? And Brett, I hope I'm not missing anybody in Tish.

Thank you for everything that you do. And one more question from Savarino says, Alex, I enjoy your walks and talks. Does your left arm ever get tired? What's your secret? Yes. Yes, it's exhausting. So there we have, it's very exhausting.

Thank you for that message. All right. we will end it there. Take care, everybody.