The Duran Podcast - Trump Georgia indictment, Tiberius Gracchus

Episode Date: August 24, 2023

Trump Georgia indictment, Tiberius Gracchus The Duran: Episode 1677

All right, Alexander, we have a fourth indictment this year of former president, Donald Trump. This one is from Georgia. And from what I understand, this one may be the most complicated one for his legal team to navigate. But it's not a surprise to anyone either. So while this may be the most complicated one to deal with for Trump and his legal team, it also does not come as a surprise. I think everyone expected that this indictment was going to come, and sure enough it did. And everyone knows why this is happening, but let's discuss it. Yes, I think you're absolutely correct. This is going to be the most complicated indictment, but before we proceed to analyze why that is the case, I think it is important to say that, in my opinion, having read this indictment, there is actually no case there. I mean, I cannot myself,

see a case. The problems don't stem from the case. Remember, all the issues that are set out in this indictment have already been litigated as part of Trump's second impeachment. So, I mean, already we can see that there are problems here because, you know, it was all brought up during the impeachment, the telephone call with the secretary in the secretary of state in Georgia and all those kind of things. But all I can see that they've established is what we've already known, that Trump disputed the results in Georgia.

In no way, in my opinion, can his words or his actions or the actions of any part of his team be construed as trying to overturn a result which they knew was right. I mean, I'm, I mean, I can't see that. I, all it, to me, it's quite clear that they believed that the result was wrong and they were

trying to delay the announcement of that results until proper investigations as they saw it. I mean, you know, you might disagree with them about this, but proper investigations as they saw it were done to establish the fact that the result which they believed was wrong, was indeed wrong. Now, you might think that was a mistake, you might think that that was wrong, you might think that they were acted improperly, that it was all crazy, that they thought like that.

But I cannot myself see that there is anything here that remotely amounts to a criminal act. What it amounts to is essentially criminalising someone who says that, you know, I don't, I dispute this result. I want this result examined and looked over and researched and investigated.

And what is even more scary about it is that it also criminalises actions by any lawyer that gives someone like Trump in that position advice and assistance to pursue that course. That's really very, very dangerous because it is criminalising in a position. effect, the provision of legal assistance and advice. And it means that lawyers now are put on notice that if they give legal advice to Donald Trump or act for Donald Trump, they risk being themselves indicted. I doubt that we've ever been in this situation before. We saw something of that with the previous indictment about the, you know, the fraud, the election fraud that Jack Smith brought. But this has taken it a whole step beyond that.

So I don't actually see a case here. This is my own view. I'm, you know, I'll argue it fully. I think eventually this case will collapse when it gets, as it probably will, ultimately, to the Supreme Court of the United States. That's not what makes this difficult. What makes this difficult is three things. Firstly, there are Republicans in Georgia who will support this indictment. That's the first thing.

So it is going to create problems for Donald Trump with a section of the Republican Party. If you remember that conversation, those discussions with those officials in Georgia, which are, to a certain extent, well, to a key extent, a part of this indictment, They were Republicans, Republican officials in Georgia, asserting the rightness of the election results, and it is very likely that some of them will support this indictment. So that's already a political problem for Donald Trump. The second is that, again, you're going to have a jury,

who I am sure, like the jury's in Manhattan, and the jury in Washington, D.C., drawn from a jury pool, which is going to be hostile to Donald Trump. And however weak this indictment is, putting aside whether there's even a case here, there's a high likelihood that there is going to be a conviction. The third problem, and it's the major problem,

is that there is no mechanism for the President of the United States to pardon himself, or to be pardoned by another president for a conviction in this particular case because it's a case under Georgia law, not federal law. So ultimately, the Supreme Court of the United States could step in, that that might take years, and if Donald Trump wins the election next year,

but has previously been convicted under this charge, which as I said is very likely, the risk is that he could be in prison at the time when he's elected. And that will be an extraordinary state of affairs. And of course, the fact that he is in prison, he might be in prison even before he's elected, might have an effect on the election and might conceivably deter some people from voting for him.

And that, I think, is what the purpose of this ultimately is, It's basically to prevent Trump winning by jailing him before the election. You know, there's a part of me that finds this so crazy, ridiculous. I think there's a lot of people that find this ridiculous. And then there's the other part of me, which is like this is, this is a huge tragedy. They're destroying the Constitution, the United States of America. I mean, they are absolutely destroying it. And, you know, you're torn between the, you're, you're torn between the,

the ridiculous, the comedic and the ridiculous. Even Trump in a speech he gave the other day, he said, one more indictment, and I'm going to beat everybody. Because with each indictment, you know, his polling numbers shoot up. Yes. But then the other side of this is,

this is very concerning because, you know, they're doing stuff to the main competitor in this presidential election that's coming up. which I, you know, I'm trying to think of countries that I've done this and not even the most banana republic of banana republics I can think of does this type of trickery. I mean, this whole thing is just so, so sinister and sorted and devious. It's, I mean, I don't know. No, I am entirely in agreement with you. And I mean, there is a comedic quality to this.

On that, there is no question. but the tragedy is much greater. And the tragedy is, I mean, can I just say, I mean, he might win. It might actually boost his chances. But, I mean, you know, threatening a man with prison is an extraordinary step to take. It is a terrible step to take. And one which we should not discount the significance of it in itself. But the greater tragedy is for the American Republic,

because the American Republic is founded on the American Constitution. and the impartial administration of the law. When the law is being used in this way, with this extraordinary flurry of legal cases, all of them thrown at Donald Trump in this fashion, one after the other in the space of a few weeks, in the run-up to an election, where he's likely to be the nominee for the other main party.

Well, this undermines the whole underlying structure of the Republic. You cannot function. as a republic if the legal basis upon which it works is being undermined. Now, there is, I'm sorry to say, a very, very important, a very serious historical precedent for this. And it goes back to ancient history, but I've been thinking about this a lot. You know, I'm Greek, after all, and I think an awful lot about ancient history. Greeks do, for us, ancient history is not that ancient. But this actually applies to Rome in the mid-second century, in the 140s BC, there was a Roman politician called Tiberius Gracchus.

He wanted to carry out various reforms in the social and economic fabric of the Roman Republic, which were important and democratizing in terms of that republic. The Roman oligarchy combined against him. They submerged him again in all kinds of lawfare activities, and eventually they killed him. And the universal consensus amongst historians of that period today is that that marked the moment when the Roman Republic began to collapse. Because people's faith in the Republic and its institutions began to be undermined, and the sequel was a succession of civil wars and ultimately the establishment of the dictatorship of Caesar Augustus.

So, I mean, it is not as if there is no precedent for this and it's a stretch to compare Gracchus with Trump in terms of personality. But in terms of the response to these people from powerful insiders within the system, I'm afraid there are resemblance are uncanny and they're deeply concerning and you're absolutely right.

It is a tragedy for the Republic. If this thing succeeds, if it is not overturned in the courts, if it results in, if it achieves its purpose, then the Republic, the American Republic is in a very bad place. Irrecoverable. Yes. I mean, that's what it's sounding like listening to you. Yes.

Yes. You can't come back from this. You can't come back from this. As Rome was never able, the Roman Republic was never able to do from the destruction of Tiberius Gracchus. Okay. Any other final thoughts on this? I mean, it's pretty, I mean, you know, is there a way that Trump can get out of this? Well, I think there, you know, I think there are a potential ways maybe that this case can be spun out until, beyond the 2024 election, if he wins the 2024 election and there's not yet been a conviction, he's still out of prison, then of course, it's difficult to see how in the face of that this case can continue. But, you know, that is one way. But the important thing to understand, the important thing to say is that the Republic is now living dangerously. It is very, very

dangerous indeed and the most alarming thing about this is that far too few people in the United States have fully understood this I mean it's not something I think that people have grasped how dangerous this thing ultimately is yeah I agree with you on that it's sounding very very dangerous okay we'll leave it there the duran.local.com. We are on Rumble Odyssey, Bich, Shoot, Telegraph, and Rock Finn, and go to the Duran shop, 10% off. Use the code. Good day. Take care.