The Duran Podcast - Tucker Carlson interviews Vladimir Putin

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

Tucker Carlson interviews Vladimir Putin

All right, Alexander, let's talk about the interview between Tucker Carlson and Russian President Vladimir Putin. What are your thoughts on this interview? Just very quickly, I think that if you have been following the Duran or you've been following Putin over the last decade, two decades, and especially if you've been following Putin since the beginning of the special military operations, I don't think that there was anything that he said during this interview that would be a surprise to someone that has been following Russia or Putin. But that wasn't the target group for this interview. I think the target group was very much the collective West, specifically the United States, because Tucker Carlson is a U.S. citizen. And his interest is in the well-being of the United States.

that's obvious. He's concerned about the United States. And it was targeting, I believe it was targeting a person who has not been exposed to Putin and has not heard the Russian side of things, perhaps someone that has just been following CNN or BBC or MSNBC or something like that. And all of a sudden they get to hear Putin in a two-hour interview, very much a podcast-like format, almost like a live stream. No interruptions. It wasn't confined to 20 minutes or 30 minutes. And the whole thing just played out from start to finish very much a conversation between Tucker and Putin.

And Tucker did allow Putin to speak at length about whatever he wanted to talk about, whether it was history, the conflict in Ukraine, how we got to where we are. All of these things, Putin was allowed to speak freely. whatever time he needed to express himself. So anyway, what were your thoughts on this interview? Right. Well, I think the first thing I'm going to say is that I think he did give away one piece of information, which was new to me, and I follow and track Putin all the time,

and which I think actually is important and tells us why it's going to be incredibly difficult now to come to any kind of diplomatic or peace settlement. over the crisis in Ukraine. And it takes us back directly to one specific event. I just want to reference this. We can then move on to the rest of the interview. But I want to reference this specifically. And that was that he talked again about the Battle of Kiev, so-called,

and the Russian withdrawal from Kiev. And the Russians, as we know, have always said that they withdrew from Kiev. their forces from Kiev in March and April 2022 as a goodwill gesture in connection with the apparent agreement of the Istanbul Accords and that they did that at the request of the Ukrainians. Now Putin disclosed that it wasn't just the Ukrainians who asked for Russian troops to be withdrawn from me. Kiev. It was also the French and the Germans. So the French and the Germans were also in contact with the Russians at that time. Obviously, they were up to date with what was going on in Istanbul. And again, the French and the Germans asked Putin to withdraw the Russian troops from Kiev as a goodwill gesture. And then Putin says that the moment that happened, the

Istanbul agreement was thrown into the dustbin and the West. pocketed and the Ukrainians pocketed the benefits of the Russian withdrawal but didn't fulfill their promises. So that's important because again Putin's if you follow his interview very closely it's full of comments about how he was repeatedly reaching out for agreements with Western leaders thought that he was achieving agreements with Western leaders, taking steps in compliance with those agreements, only to find that the Western powers simply turned round and pocketed his concessions and then simply made further demands.

Anyway, I'll come to that later. Now, you're absolutely correct in what you said. Before you go on, can I just ask you a question on that? You're right there. I didn't catch that, that he did make that distinction that it wasn't Ukraine, it was, it wasn't only Ukraine. It was the Germans. It was Germany and France.

Okay. That's, yeah, that's a good catch on your part. Just before you go on to the rest of the interview, doesn't that play into one of Putin's main grievances in general with regards to France and even more so to Germany, of which Putin definitely had a soft spot for Germany, had an affiliation with Germany. He was based there for many years, which is that if there was one country that consistently, for lack of a better word, duped him or conned him or strung him along, it was Germany. And it looks like that in this instance, what you're referencing is perhaps the final time that Germany would string Putin

along. I don't know. Is that... That's absolutely correct. That is entirely the correct statement to make. He talks about the Nord Stream episode in immense detail and, you know, the fact that parts of the gas pipeline

system could still function and the decisions that Germany has made about that. And he also speaks, frankly, with anger and disappointment about the conduct of Angela Merkel in connection with the Minsk Agreement. So you're absolutely correct.

I would add something else which he didn't mention, which is that, of course, if the Germans and the French did, and I have no reason to doubt what Putin is saying, if the French and the Germans were party to the request to have the Russians withdraw from around Kiev, then they have gone along ever since then with this story about the Ukrainian victory in Kiev, which they know isn't true. They have, in effect, built up this myth of some great Ukrainian military victory around Kiev,

which they know themselves, is absolutely at variance with the actual facts. But, you know, we're now moving a bit into the detail of the interview, but I do think that is an important revelation. And it was interesting that Putin slipped it out. He did so very carefully as he always does in answer to a question from Tucker. But it was a very interesting disclosure. And it is going to be important going forward in future negotiations between Russia and the West, not just about Ukraine.

Now, going back to your original point, you're absolutely correct. this was not for you and me. I mean, you know, we noticed this particular detail that Putin disclosed. But in other respects, everything we heard from Putin is essentially what we already know. I mean, he talked about many of the topics we've heard him cover, about the dollar, about the multipolar system, about the role of the United States, about the role of the elites in the United States, about the report. repeated promises that the Russians were given. At the end of the Cold War, not to expand NATO eastwards, the pressure that Russia has felt itself under

about the support that the United States and the Western powers gave to the jihadist movements in the Northern Caucasus, about which he still feels clearly very angry about the failure of the ABM Treaty, about all of these things. All of that is not new to us. He did provide a lot of very interesting anecdotal detail of his specific interactions with Western officials and Western leaders, which we will come to again.

But overall, you're absolutely correct. It's not substantively new. But of course he wasn't addressing us. He was addressing Americans. And I'm going to say this, he, he, they will have seen him. They will have seen a man of tremendous energy, colossal intellect, somebody who has all the facts at his fingertips. Well, there was one date that he couldn't remember,

which is when he came to the United States on one occasion and had a meeting with the, with Bush, father and son. This is clearly in Bush Jr.'s presidency, but he was actually invited by Bush, senior. So, I mean, he missed one day. But in all other respects, he has his faxed his fingertips. He can answer questions at length. I will say this.

I think he made a slip at the beginning. He gave this long, detailed history about Ukraine and Russian interactions with Ukraine. I think he went into far too much detail for an American audience. And it's not impossible that he lost some people. over the course of this. I mean, Tucker himself was beginning to become impatient. But it was something

that Putin himself clearly felt a great need to get off his chest. And once he got past that and was interacting with Tucker a lot more actively, well, as I said, Americans would have heard his explanations,

heard his accounts, heard his descriptions of his dealings with Americans, officials over, you know, the 25 years that he's been at the helm in Russia. And I think a lot of that will have been revelatory, actually. And the way American officials are not just American officials, European officials too, come along, tell him one thing and go away and do something

completely different. Yeah, I think that Putin, in general, Putin does like to get into the weeds with history. I mean, that's not uncharacteristic of Putin to talk about history at length. So, yes, I agree with you. You could see that even Tucker was getting a bit impatient. But it isn't uncharacteristic of Putin's style either to go into all the history of things. I mean, obviously, he enjoys history. He is a historian.

I mean, he enjoys it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's also a Russian characteristic, if I might say, if you interact with Russians, You know that Russians know their history in great deal. This is a very historically minded country. And Russians can always pull out these enormously detailed historical narratives for you. And you know, you get this from taxi drivers, you get this from waiters in restaurants, you get it from all sorts of people.

So Putin obviously takes this. to a further level because he is an immensely educated an erudite man. But it's the kind of thing that Russians are accustomed to. Americans are not. And of course, an American audience might have found this difficult. And to be fragg, I think he could have said all of that in far fewer words. And, you know, coming from me, that's quite a thing to say. but I think he could have done it.

But having said that, I mean, provided you were prepared to hold on and go through with all of that, it did provide Putin the foundation, the context for many of the other things that he was saying. I mean, he was explaining an awful lot about the nature of the interrelationship between Russia and Ukraine, the long history, the fact that they were at one time, and conceived of themselves as being one people. I mean, he didn't mention the simple fact, for example, that for the first couple of hundred years, they were literally one nation, one country whose capital was Kiev. I mean, he could have simply said that.

And then, you know, there was the invasion by the Mongols and all of this fragmented, and Moscow eventually re-asserted itself. But eventually, by that point, Poland had absorbed much of the west of Ukraine, much of the west of this region, which eventually became Ukraine, and then in the 17th century, these two parts of what he claims of one people, they came back together again, and always orthodoxy was the single thing that brought them together, and the fact that they were Slavs and Russians as well. So all of that, all of that, he could have said much more simply, but it does provide the context for everything else, the fact that, as he said at one point, to a great extent,

this is a civil war. He actually said that there was one instance when Russian troops had surrounded some Ukrainian troops and called on them to surrender, and the Ukrainian troops shouted back, Russians never surrender, and said that in Russian. Things of that kind. And again, the fact that Eastern Ukraine still considers itself to be profoundly Russian and has always thought of as such and how unnatural this attempt to separate Ukraine from Russia fundamentally is and why it is seen by Russians as such a profound existential matter going beyond the question about NATO's eastern expansion, the fact that NATO has been tearing up arms control treaties, planting missile systems in Europe against the terms of those treaties, and doing things which the Russians would

see as profoundly dangerous. So, I mean, it was interesting, and it explains his thinking and the context of things. And, you know, Americans who listen and, you know, follow this kind of thing, they would have found it interesting. And as I said, Americans who perhaps on the not able to follow the history so closely, which nonetheless, I think, have got the sense that he does have a grasp of these matters, even if it's perhaps not so hugely interesting to that. Yeah, I mean, if you've followed a Joe Rogan podcast or even one of our live streams, you know, that could go on for an hour and a half or two hours, I thought the format of this interview was very much like that. It was very open and a very, a very free discussion that was taking place.

I think the, today's viewer can sit down for two, two and a half hours and absorb everything that Putin was saying, even if there were parts where Putin may have been getting into too much detail for, for an everyday podcast or news viewer. But Tucker did a great job in allowing Putin to speak. I thought he did a really good job there. Going back to, can I just quickly step in there? say this, I think Taka did a masterly job. I thought it was the best Putin interview by a Western journalist I have seen. I mean, finally, we had a journalist who was prepared to let Putin

express his thoughts and his views. I mean, what we always get from Western journalists, whenever they interview Putin, it has become increasingly, it's got worse and worse as the years have passed, is incredibly aggressive and polemically. interviews, constant interruptions, constant attempts to put Putin on the spot and embarrass and humiliate him in some way. And the result is, what we get in the end is an awful lot of heat and very little light. This time, it was different. Americans will have got an impression of Putin the man. They'd have seen who he is and they will have heard him properly and they will have heard he's, you know,

seen the way he thinks and the kind of person he is. And, you know, they might not always agree with him. They might not always follow him. But at last, we've had a proper interview, a proper Putin interview that, you know, even people like us can take away and work with and find things there that were interesting. Yeah, he's not this crazy, unhinged dictator

that they make him out to be. And that's, at the end of the day, that's what scared the collective West with this interview, that it would actually show that Putin was very capable, very smart, understood the history, understood the facts, understood the numbers, and he would be able to explain Russia's reasoning for everything that has taken place, not only over the past two years, over the past 20 or 30 years, or even 100 years. I mean, Putin went all the way back to a thousand years. Yeah, it was pretty incredible.

What were your thoughts on his discussion with Tucker Cross? I think Tucker was very concerned about this. And that has to do with Hungary. Tucker has a soft spot for Hungary. He's been there. He's met with Orban. He likes the country. He respects the country.

And there was an exchange. between Tucker and Putin, where they did talk about the territories in the West, which do have historical ties to Hungary to Romania, to Poland. Then Putin told Tucker's story about how when he was traveling at one point in time in the West of Ukraine, he saw men dressed in a certain way, and there were of Hungarian ethnicity. Anyway, Putin got into all of that. And then Putin asked him about, you know, Hungary and what's going to happen with the West of Ukraine. Essentially, that was Tucker's question is, what's going to happen with this west of

Ukraine? Are we going to see Hungary take their part? Our are we going to see Romania? Take their historical lands. Are we going to see Poland? What did you make of that exchange and tie it into what Putin said about the historical Russian lands east of the river? Odessa, Kharkov, to Niproprotsky. Putin didn't get into any of the names of the regions. But I think that Putin did give us a little bit of insight once again as to how he may be seeing an endgame to this map of what could be Ukraine or something else. I'm not saying he's decided on anything, but once again, I think we did get some insight. What were your thoughts on that exchange? It was an interesting exchange. It was a most interesting exchange. I mean, in fact,

we got to the heart of the issue about Ukraine, and it was extremely interesting how Taka again, was able to bring us to this point by bringing up Hungary. And, you know, that enabled again Putin to discuss and enlarge things. Now, one thing he made absolutely clear, and it is important again, is that he has never discussed with Orban any territorial issues with respect to Ukraine. Again, there's been lots of suggestions that, you know, Putin and Orban are somehow in collusion with each other. that Orban is some kind of Putin agent in Europe. Putin said, look, I've never spoken to Orban about any of this.

What I saw for myself is that in this area, people don't speak Slavic languages, and they are Hungarians, and that this is ancestral Hungarian land. And he left it open. he said one day that might be resolved and it might be resolved in accordance with Hungarian wishes and Hungarian national interests

essentially what he was talking about was self-determination and at the same time he is now absolutely clear or so it seems to me that he's talking about reincorporating at the very least Russian lands back into Russia

that means at the very least all the territory to the east of the Dnieper River. So that means Harkov, that means Zaporosia, that means obviously Dombas, that means all of that territory. Now, Odessa, of course, is actually to the west of the Dnieper River, but he's been, again, very careful to say that Odessa is a Russian city. You're quite right, he didn't say that in this programme. He was right not to, I think. That would have...

He did mention Catherine the Great. He did mention... He did mention Catherine the Great. He did mention Catherine the Great. Absolutely. So, and of course, Catherine the Great is the founder of Odessa. And until fairly recently, there was a statue there of her. But anyway, so I think that if he's talking about Russian lands

and bringing Russian lands specifically back into Russia, then that biological extension must include Adessa as well. He was more explicit about this than he has ever been. But bear in mind, and this is where his long historical explanation, becomes very, very interesting, because he clearly regards Ukrainians as a type of Russian. and what can see how just as he

was saying that in the 17th century the coming together of Ukraine and Russia was the coming together of the Russian people again that if things aren't settled

if there isn't a negotiated solution and he made it again very very clear that he's absolutely not averse to negotiations that he's prepared to negotiate though again, as I said, Russian territory, I think, in other words, territory east of the NEPA, is no longer for him a fit subject for negotiations.

But, you know, if there are no negotiations, then at some point, if the Russians feel obliged to cross the NEPA and to move into Western Ukraine, Well, it seems to me, into central Ukraine rather, into Kiev and those sort of places. Well, he's not slammed the door on that, and he's not slammed the door on some process of reunification, as he would call it, taking place as well. Now, I want to stress that's not what he said. He said, look, we're prepared to sit down, we're prepared to talk, it's the Ukrainians who tore up the Istanbul Agreement, it's the Ukrainians who pass this ridiculous law, which prohibits them from negotiating with us.

We've had no proposals of any substance, and if all of that is changed, and people are prepared to sit down, we have always said that we're prepared to sit down as well. So he's not closing the door in negotiations. In fact, he went out of his way to make that clear. But so far, there's been no attempt to negotiate, all the talk and language in the West

is about trying to find some means to continue the war. And I think people who are talking about continuing the war in the West ought to look at the direction of Putin's thinking. And this is as a way his discussions of history are important.

And really need to understand that if we ever do get into, a situation where Russian troops find themselves not just in Zaporosia and Kharkov and Odessa, but also one day in Jitomir, Cherkasi, NEPRO and Kiev, well, there might come a time when Putin comes around and says, well, you know, these people are Russian too, they have our same culture, they have our same religion. They have a similar language. It's a variant of the Eastern Slav languages, but it's very close to Russian. They thought of themselves as Russians in the past. They're part of Russia,

too. What did you make of his, I don't want to say a revelation, but the exchange with Nord Stream? Putin just coming out and saying, look, it's it's it's the u.s it's you guys he said it's you guys look at the Tucker but um he made an interesting point in that he he said you know it's not only the the quibono aspect of it but also who has the capabilities he went and he took and he took it one step further which i thought was really really interesting because we get this question all the time and i think we've answered this question correctly now which is if russia has all this information because Tucker asked this. He's like, do you know something? Do you have information? I mean, you're Russia. You have satellites. You must know. That was what Tucker was implying. And Putin was implying, you know, we do know. And this doesn't only carry to, this doesn't only refer to Nord Stream. This can refer to many instances that that have happened in the past with regards to Russia and to the region. And that Putin said, you know, even if we disclosed this information, it's not going to make any difference because

The United States has such a hold on the information space that no one's going to give it any light of day anyway. Even if we say, look, we have this info on Nord Stream. Here it is, because the U.S. controls the information space to such an extent, such a great extent, it's not going to really convince anybody. I thought that was an interesting revelation. In other words, is Putin saying we're not going to waste our time. Even though we have the facts and we have the data, we have the surveillance, we have everything, we're not going to waste our. time trying to get this information out there because when it comes to the information space, you know, this is controlled by the US for now.

Absolutely, yes, exactly what he said, but he also said something else, which is that, of course, if we do disclose all of this information, then we're also providing the Western powers with information about our sources. We are giving away how we obtain this kind of information. and given that the Western powers control the information space, we would be giving away information about our sources to no useful end, because we would compromise our sources, and at the same time we would not achieve any political impact either.

So, you know, he was a very interesting comment, but he basically said, and this is the key point, that the Russians know exactly who did it. They know how it was done, I suspect, and who did it. And it's obviously you could deduce it. You could say who benefits and who has the capability. But they obviously have or believe they have more information than just that. Or at least that's what Putin was hinting at.

Did you get the sense that Putin is done with the collective West? Because towards the end of the, yeah, towards the end of the year, towards the end of the interview, there was another exchange where Putin was like, look, doesn't the United States have better things to do? You know, he's like, you guys have a problem with the southern border. You have $33 trillion in debt. You know, why are you poking around our neighborhood? Don't you guys have better concerns, other concerns to deal with?

And that got the sense from listening to Putin that he was just like, you know, we're done trying to to show the West that we want to be good partners. We've tried. We've been denied over and over and over again. We've been double-crossed. We've been lied to. He was just like, you know, you guys figure it out because Tucker was like, are you open to peace?

Are you open to negotiate? Are you open to dialogue? And I forgot exactly how Putin phrased it. but he was he was just like you know it's not our problem anymore you guys got yourself in this mess you figure it out you come up with whatever you know you need to

whatever solutions you may have in mind tell us and let's see if we can find an off rent find a way for you to save face but he's like it's not our problem anymore and I was thinking to the beginning of the SMO when we were talking about Klausovits and how the Russians view war very much is just an extension of politics towards achieving a political aim. And I really think that Putin subscribes to that philosophy. And I think he was telling Tucker, we're going to achieve our political aim,

whether it's on the battlefield, or if the collective West comes to us. and suggests a different formula. At the end of the day, though, we're going to complete the goals that we have set out in the special military operation. I mean, did you get that sense from Putin that that's what he was trying to convey to Tucker? Absolutely. In fact, I think even at one point, he didn't mention Klausovitz, but I think he did actually pretty much say that. I mean, he also, by the way, set out his fundamental. realist view of international relations. He actually, there was a whole passage where he basically explained them, and this is where he was talking about, you know, the rise and fall of states and

empires and all of that kind of thing. And he said, you know, that you have to be realistic, you have to be practical about how the world is shaped and how things happen. And, you know, he was in effect coming across to me as an entirely Klausivitian thinker. But let's focus on other things. Yes, he is absolutely fed up with the West. I mean, he even said at the very end, the very end of the interview, when Tucker was pressing him about Gerskiewicz, this is this American journalist that the Russians arrested,

who went to Nizhny Tagu, or was it Svrlo, Aga Katernburg, and tried to get information about the Yeratiriburg. Yeah, exactly, the Eurovagon-Zavod factory and all that. And Tucker said to you, you know, well, you know, why aren't you going to, can't you do a goodwill gesture? He said, we've done heaps of goodwill gestures. And we never get, we never get any reciprocal result for them. So why should we bother anymore? And now this time there has to be a trade, because we're not doing anything any longer for nothing.

We're not relying on promises. We're just going to take a very tough-minded and realistic view of our own interests. And he made it, he said why? I mean, he went through, in effect, the entire diplomatic history since the end of the Cold War, how, you know, the Russians, as you put it, they striven repeatedly to find ways to meet the Americans and the Europeans and achieve a sustainable solution. He talked about, you know, how they were promised that NATO would not,

advance eastwards it happened they were told that uh you know he he asked can the can russia join NATO bill clinton said yes possibly and then immediately the united states comes back and says no no way so he said okay we we can't join NATO can we find some other way forward and you know he makes all kinds there all kinds of proposals suggestions talks about new security architecture. West isn't interested. He talked about how, you know, he ended into all kinds of discussions

with Western officials. He made it very clear that he doesn't any longer think that presidents, US presidents, actually have that much power. He said that the president, whoever he is, is basically constrained

by elite consensus. It reminded me very much, if you remember of that incident during the first Trump impeachment when Alexander Vindman, remember him, the official of the National Security Council, became absolutely furious because what Donald Trump did or said at some point

contradicted the policy of the interagency. Putin's clearly come to that view. And, you know, he said, you know, given this history, given the fact We made effort after effort tried time and again to come to some kind of understanding with West. And we've had it always thrown into our faces. People say one thing, do something else. He made it pretty clear that on occasions some of the conversations have become incredibly heated and abusive.

He's basically lost interest. He says, you know, we're not giving it. anything away anymore. We're going to follow our interests and we're not going to rely on your promises because you don't keep them. All right. And one final, I've got two more questions. China. Yeah. I think Putin squashed the whole analysis or theory that Russia is not really going to be able to get along with China or there's always going to be some sort of tension between Russia and China. I think Putin was very clear in saying that that Russia and China they're they're in this thing together. Absolutely. I... This thing together. Absolutely. I mean, he was because he was, because

he was basically, you know, leading him there. I mean, there's this constant thing that you constantly hear now from many, many Westerners that, you know, what Putin is doing is he's making Russia as satellites of China is becoming an effective province of greater China where he squashed that one and he went out of his way to say look we've had many dealings with the Chinese they've never acted towards us in that kind of way

and he basically said that and of course it's difficult to avoid making the contrast based on the other things that he said between the way in which the Chinese interact with the Russians and the way the West has interacted with the Russians. When Westerners constantly warn the Russians, you're handing over the keys to China,

they always seem to ignore the fact that what they have been asking the Russians repeatedly to do is hand over the keys to them. And Putin says, the Chinese have never asked us for the keys. But you repeatedly have done. Or at least you've always acted as if that's what you want from us. I mean, he even brought up Yeltsin at one point. He said, you know, you built up Yeltsin.

You said, what a great person he was. And then the moment Yeltsin turned around. said, you know, bombing Serbia is unacceptable, which no Russian political leader could have avoided doing, was suddenly the floodgates open. You know, he's a drunk, he's corrupt, he's incompetent, he's authoritarian, all of these things. And, you know, given this kind of behaviour, in effect, it's you who've pushed us away. And if we're now friends with China, well, so be it. And the Chinese have never treated us like that. And he clearly doesn't expect that they ever will. Yeah, he did say that. He said the genie was let out of the bottom with the bombing of Serbia and Yeltsin

with regards to international law and all of that stuff. That was a very interesting comment. A final question, does this change anything as far as the conflict in Ukraine, as far as how Europe deals with Russia, the EU, Germany, as far as how the Biden White House deals, with Russia. Does this change anything at all? No. Maybe he won't. Not in the short term. The public sentiment in the US towards Putin? Not will that change?

Not in the short term. But it might provide an important marker for the future. So let us assume, you know, going a little bit forward that we get into a situation where the administration starts to make commitments to Ukraine. And you remember, they were talking at one point about that there's been discussion about sending troops to Ukraine. I mean, you know, it's been floated. I think it was Schumer who raised it last.

And that was where he said, you know, why do you want to send troops to Ukraine? We've got all those other problems in your own country. But let's assume something like that happens. And decisions are made in the West, which the Western public suddenly realizes are dragging the West towards a potentially

incredibly dangerous confrontation with Russia. Well, at that point, the record has been laid straight by Putin, as he sees it, and people who want to argue against that, they can go back and they can point out

that, on the contrary, it's not the Russians who've been aggressive, it's we who have been, it's not the Russians who have walked back on agreements, It is the West that has. The Istanbul Agreement, the Minsk Agreement, these are specific to Ukraine. He went in great detail about those.

All the arms control agreements that existed, all the promises that we were given, that in fact it is we in the West who, as Putin says, exerted pressure, pressure, pressure upon Russia, not us, the Russians. So we are not a threat to you. You have been a threat to us. And as I said, if we start to drift into a dangerous escalation, which we might do, I mean, it's possible. Then, of course, the record is there.

And people in the West who want to push back and argue about it, well, they have that record, that interview between Tucker and Putin to draw upon. And they could say, look, where our governments are taking us is disastrous. There was another way. There were alternatives. And we didn't follow them. And it's our governments who have brought us to this point,

just as they've done on so many other cases, in Vietnam, in Iraq, in Afghanistan or wherever. Only this time it's with Russia. And it's become far more dangerous. So I think it's not, going to change anything immediately, but it might become very important in the near future. Yeah, one more question, comment. Boy, did Putin really lay into Boris Johnson? He talked about Canada and the parliament situation. And he also revealed how little respect he has for, as a

Oh, he's the president. He says he's the president. You know, he can, he can talk to me. He can negotiate with me. He says he's the president. We want to track like a president. That's pretty much what Putin was saying, but boy, did he really lay into, for example, Johnson. I mean, he demolished Boris Johnson. Absolutely. Completely. I mean, he said, I mean, he basically, I mean, made Boris Johnson look like, like a clown, which of course Boris is, and Zelensky as well. And of course, as you correctly said he talked a lot about Canada and what happened there. And I mean he's frankly, his lack of respect and esteem for Western leaders altogether shone through, presidents who, American presidents who can't deliver on what they promise, European leaders

who follow American orders all the time, even when they know that what they're doing is a mistake and is going to turn into a disaster. I mean, he brought up again what happened in 2008 at the Bucharest Summit meeting, the one where NATO invited Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO. And he said, you know, Merkel, the Noland, he didn't name them, but it's clear that's what he meant, came along and told him afterwards, well, we don't want Ukraine and NATO. We don't think this is still a good idea, but the Americans have put all this pressure on this, and so we've had to agree. But don't worry, because Ukraine is never going to join NATO. And you must be kidding me. Do you think I'm a fool?

If the Americans put pressure on you to extend an invitation that you say you don't agree with, how is it going to be any different when the moment comes? and the American say to you, Ukraine must join NATO now. Of course you'll agree. You've already agreed to something you say is wrong, and you're going to agree to something you now tell me is wrong when that point comes. And I mean, he clearly has no time or patience or respect for any of the leaders of the West. I'm going to add one other little point about who.

But he doesn't use bad language. Oh no, he doesn't. He never does. He doesn't say dictator and this guy, thug. No. Yeah. I think that's what separates Putin from a Biden, let's say. Exactly. He doesn't.

He did at one point call them satellites. You're satellites of the United States. But, you know, that's pretty measured language by the standards of what we have today. But, you know, he was. He was always polite, careful in his language. he's very careful not to disclose confidences. They're always giving information about things he supposed to have said in private discussions. He says that he will never do the same and he doesn't.

He's very careful not to repeat words that were spoken to him by Western leaders in confidential negotiations. And he extends those kind of formal courtesies. but in terms of actual respect, it's clear that he hasn't any. By the way, the other thing I wanted to just mention is that, of course, he laughs several times during the interview. And how rarely do we see that in interviews with Western leaders nowadays? I mean, again, he has a sense of humour, and Westerners and Americans who followed this interview will have got a glimpse of it. Yeah. Just a couple of more comments is a long video, but it was such a, such an interesting interview. You know, Putin did mention something that we talk about a lot as well, or we have talked about a lot as well on the show, which is the long-term prospect of what's going to happen in this region, which is essentially what happened between Russia and Chechnya, the Chechens.

after the conflict, they eventually took time, but they eventually found their way to be together. And Putin, actually, that was probably the last, that was one of the last comments he made to Tucker during the interview, which is when all is said and done and this conflict ends, Putin did mention that the collective West, they really do want to break up Russia. That's the end goal is to break up Russia. But Putin's comment was very much along the lines of what's going to happen is the exact opposite, which is, is that eventually it's going to take time, but we're going to heal. And Russians and Ukrainians will find their way back together again. I thought that was an interesting and probably a proper way to end the interview. And that is how it ended.

Oh, absolutely. And I think that is, I actually agree with him. I think that is what is going to happen. Well, we've said that. I mean, you said that in many videos, yeah. videos, exactly. And, you know, it's, it's important that, I mean, the other thing about this, you said about how he didn't say any rude things about Western leaders, but he said no rude things, no, no rude things about Ukrainians or Ukrainian culture or anything like that. I mean,

he was very, very hard on the neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Another thing he disclosed, by the way, An interesting point which, again, most people missed, is that he also mentioned that as part of the Istanbul agreements, Ukraine, in draft, committed itself to taking action to basically clean all that up. Again, that's not something we've heard before, but it'd be interesting to see the relevant provisions of the Istanbul Agreement, draft agreement,

when it's finally released, which shows that. But anyway, he was very, very hard. That also gave us some insight, just to go into your point there, because I want you to talk about this, that also gives us some insight. He gave some insight as to what drove Zelensky with Boris Johnson to break the agreement in that Putin said, Zelensky probably saw that he would not be able to go against the neo-Nazi elements and decided to take the easy path, which was to listen to Johnson and the line with the West. I mean, that is what he said. So he did give us some insight there as to what decisions Zelensky probably made.

I mean, the impression that he gives is of a very weak leader in Zelensky, who is incapable of facing down the hardline Nazi element within Ukraine and would have needed the support of the West to do it. But as he straightforwardly said at one point, the West on the contrary prefers to align itself, with this hardline element, because that keeps Ukraine on the anti-Russian track, which is unnatural to it.

But going back to the point about reconciliation, I mean, the fact that Putin himself, as is very careful to be, you know, to say nothing, you know, critical or averse or about Ukraine or its culture or its people. I mean, it is, it's a little bit in the style of Lincoln, know, with malice towards none, with charity for all. You could almost see a similar speech from Putin coming out,

well, not of course with that kind of language, that kind of splendid language, but that kind of tone and intention, once the war is over, let us seek a reconciliation together and rebuild together. We will respect the differences in your culture, and you'll respect ours. ultimately we're one people and we will find a way forward together and i think you know that's

that's the way he conceives of things and by the way i think probably he's probably right yeah i agree all right let's uh let's end it there the durand dot locals dot com we are on rumble odyssey bitch shoot telegram rock fin and twitter x and go to the duran shop 15% of all t-shirts take care