The Dylan Gemelli Podcast - Episode #4: Featuring JJ Virgin! Understanding Muscle Gain and Body Composition, Debunking the controversy with GLP-1’s, Exposing Health Myths, Deep...

Episode Date: January 12, 2025

Tune in to The Dylan Gemelli Podcast featuring Triple Board Certified Nutrition Expert, New York TImes Best Selling Author and Fitness Hall of Famer J.J. VIrgin! In the epic interview, Dylan and J.J. discuss MANY myths and misunderstandings from the worry of women getting too big from weight training, to creatine, to GLP-1's and so much more. J.J. gives her sought after advice and guidance on many aspects of diet and provides excellent insight on Creatine Monohydrate vs. HCL. This video provides expert advice and guidance from start to finish and is one you do not want to miss!!   Check out J.J.'s Homepage: https://jjvirgin.com/   J.J. Virgin Reignite Wellness Product Line https://reignitewellness.com/   Follow the Well Beyond 40 Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/well-beyond-40/id911502027 Follow J.J. on instagram @jj.virgin ______________________________________________________________________ Today's episode is sponsored by Apollo Neuro!   Get the Apollo Neuro for $90 OFF!! USE CODE GEMELLI to save https://apolloneuro.com/gemelli _______________________________________________________________________________ To PURCHASE MITOPURE visit Dylan's landing page and use code DYLAN to save 20% OFF!! https://shop.timeline.com/DYLAN     TONUM supplements for the MIND AND BODY!   USE CODE "DYLAN" to save!!  https://www.tonum.com/DYLAN     THE BREAKTHROUGH MIMIO HEALTH FASTING MIMETIC SUPPLEMENT!  20% OFF with code Gemelli  https://mimiohealth.sjv.io/c/6588260/3323599/30611     TRULY Increase Your NAD LEVELS with WONDERFEEL NMN: https://getwonderfeel.com/?utm_source=DylanGemelli&utm_medium=podcast     MESCREEN: The world's first and only at home mitochondrial efficiency test   Save $100 with CODE   DYLAN   https://mescreen.com/cart/47561239626013:1?discount=&ref=DYLAN       HIRE DYLAN ON THE MINNECT APP HERE: expert.minnect.com/@DylanGemelli     Follow Dylan on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and Tiktok @dylangemelli and PLEASE SUBSCRIBE and leave reviews!!   MAKE SURE TO GO TO DYLAN'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL for MORE video content!!    https://www.youtube.com/@DylanGemelliBiohacking Email Dylan for booking, collaborations and/or to apply for the Dylan Gemelli Podcast [e-mail] Visit Dylan's Homepage https://dylangemelli.com

Today's episode is sponsored by Apollo Neuro. Apollo is the leading doctor recommended wearable technology. Apollo's award-winning smart vibes AI works effortlessly behind the scenes, automatically integrating into your life to deliver gentle, personalized vibrations that activate your vagus nerve, helping you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer, and wake up balanced, focused, and ready each day. Not only that, but the Apollo Neuro is the first and only wearable that improves your HRV. Apollo is effortless. Simply wear it throughout the day and night and let it do the work

for you. It's safe for anyone and everyone with no side effects and is the only wearable that can be worn anywhere on your body. Optimal health requires both the mind and body to be in line and Apollo is the key to establishing that connection. Check the description below to save $90 with my special discount. Take control over your health today with Apollo Neuro. All right, everybody, the Dylan Jameli podcast. So today I have an extra special guest. I'm kind of known for my intros. I don't, I would take up too much time to do the proper intro, so I'm going to do my best here. So she is a triple board certified nutrition expert. She's a fitness hall of famer. She's certified in holistic nutrition. She's a certified personal trainer. She's a New York

Times bestseller. And there's so many more things that we're going to get into today while we're interviewing. But I am honored, privileged, and pleasure to bring you JJ Virgin. I am thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know how busy you are. And so I am going to get right into it while I have you here. So first things first, I mean, most everybody knows exactly who you are. But I am curious, what is it that got you into health and fitness?

Was it something that happened young? Was it something that, you know, drew you later in life? Because everybody's got a story. So I'm just curious what yours is. Wish I had a good story. Start making one up. I'd literally always been interested in exercise and nutrition. Like always. I can never think of a time I wasn't.

You know, I started in dance class at five. And then I went into acrobatics and literally did acrobatics for most of my childhood, acrobatics, gymnastics, point ballet. And you've seen how tall I am. These were not sports for me. So I've always been interested in. And then I got very into diet. This is really actually horrible, but it was a turning point, great thing.

Because being six feet tall, I kept hearing, oh, you should be a model. So I grew up outside of San Francisco. I went to a modeling agency in San Francisco. And they told me, and by the way, I weigh the same now as I did then. So they told me I needed to lose at least 20 pounds. And I remember at the time I was a teenager and literally, Literally, I was in gymnastics, and so I was working out with the high school football team because there was no gym for the girls, right? And this, you know, this agent tells me I need to lose 20 pounds.

And I go home and I go to the library, I get diet books. I start counting my calories, recording them on a calendar. And then my dance teacher thought I was anorexic. And it was a big wake-up call because I remember thinking, you know, I was also running track. And I just couldn't do this. things that I like to do, I was too tired. Right. And I thought, gosh, well, shoot, I could either be skinny. And, you know, here it was, I remember going to the modeling agency, looking at these girls, and they were pale, wafy looking things, right?

Yeah. And I thought, well, I could either be that or I can be strong. I cannot be both. And I just was like, forget it. I'm going to eat. Yes. But I got very into nutrition because it was, you know, I wanted to be at the time I wanted to be a stage actress. And so your body's like your instrument there. And I was very

into nutrition and very into exercise and just always have them. That's awesome. I was a fashion model in my 20. So I know I know the strive and I know what you went through and I know it just it's not healthy. And what they want you to do is not healthy. So you definitely pick the right route to go. And I think so many people are thankful that you did go that route. So, you know, I have watched quite a bit of your work and some of the things that you talk about. And it's kind of inspired me to look more at and focus more on women as they get older, their diets and everything. One of the questions I had for you is, why are you focused on aging powerfully? And what exactly does that mean to you? And just in general for us to understand. So, you know, as an exercise physiologist, I was very

interested in muscle. And it was interesting in graduate school. Everything we did in the exercise phys department was based on cardio. And in fact, back then, this was decades ago, we were told that you should not have a client lift weights until they lost the weight. And yeah, right? I mean, this is painful stuff. We were also told back then that if you couldn't work out for at least 30 minutes of cardio, don't bother because you need to get into your fat burning zone and you had to blah, blah, blah, all this crazy stuff. Well, a couple things happened. Number one, I discovered pretty quickly that having people do loads of cardio didn't do anything and that I wasn't going to get paid to help people not get results. Right.

And so I was taking people down to Golds Gym in Venice in the 80s. And these women who were like, you know, I'm afraid to get big. I'm going to say, I'm going to take you down there because you're going to see 70 old women that you would die to look like. Right. Just die to look like. So I actually did my graduate work on how to build muscle, on how to build strength quickly. on resistance training. I did it on spinal lifting biomechanics, but part of that thesis was I had to build leg strength quickly. So, you know, I was like the rogue person in the department. But all that I was

doing in the personal training world, I was one of the first personal trainers, me and Mark Sisson and Tony Horton embodied by Jake. And I was just having people lift weights and run sprints, you know, pre-hit, pre-resistance training. But I had to get results with people. And you're certainly not going to get results having them and go walk all over the place, right? I mean, so that was my early on thing. And so as I started to look at aging, it occurred to me that really what's happening with age is that we lose our fast-twitch muscle fibers. And women anyway, when you really look at it, women, you know, we have two types of muscle fibers, as you know, slow-twitch and fast-twitch. Well, what the listener might not know is you have slow-twitch, fast-twitch, and then you have these fibers in the between. We used to call them type 2B fibers. I now think they're called X. Basically, of these fibers that are more, that are better for long, for endurance, for, there are things we use all throughout the day. Those are our slow twitched muscle fibers. And they're the ones that

we're just going to use to stand up right, postural, easy walking, etc. Then we have our fast switch muscle fibers. That's explosive, move fast, heavy things. They're exhausted quickly. And then you have these ones in between. And they can become slow or they can become fast. And I thought, you know, when you really look at what happens, as we age, we start to lose more fast-switch muscle fibers. Well, women have more oxidative, more slow-twitch muscle fibers to begin with. That's why we're more metabolically flexible. We can recover easier. But we also tend to do more slow-twitch muscle fiber activities. We're doing more walking. We're doing more, you know, Pilates, more yoga. But we also, we also tend to do more and not to diss on these things, but the problem is we're now taking the fibers that could have

been more powerful and turning them into slower fibers. And so I looked at this, I thought, you know, if you really want to age powerfully, if you look at what happens as we start to age, starting to age 30 is we're losing, starting to lose muscle. Muscles actually not the biggest problem. We're losing muscle. And I believe that, you know, everyone's worried about bone mineral density, but really, that's a lagging indicator that we lost muscle. But We lose twice as much strength and three times as much power. Strength is how much you could move something heavy one time, powers, how quickly can you move something?

So I thought, you know, what we're really need to focus on as we age, is aging powerfully, is building, not just building muscle, but building quality muscle, powerful muscle. And as I started to look at that, I went, you know, this is actually really a bigger thing than that, kind of a manifesto, because women are whole lives, just like I told you the story about the modeling agency, we're always taught to be small, to be skinny, to be, you know, right? Yeah. I thought, this really, like, the goal, and I saw an interview by Jennifer Aniston recently, and she said, I'm trying to pack on as much muscle as possible.

Our goal, our whole life as women, should be to pack on as much muscle as possible, right? To be as powerful as possible, because the more you can put on in your 20s and 30s and 40s, the better off you're going to be in your 60s, 70s and 80s. Mm-hmm. So the powerful aging started with a, let's really build those fast-twitch muscle fibers and then kind of turned into a bigger manifesto of, you know, if you don't step up now in your life, when are you going to do it? What? You're going to wait until you're 80? Right.

100%. I don't think that a lot of people understand what it takes to actually put on two, three, four pounds of muscle and keep it. That takes a lot. It really does. And I understand what you're talking about because there's a lot. My wife included, she's like 100 pounds and we got into this whole thing of this fear of, will I get too big? And I'm like, listen, you got to understand what it takes and also the type of lifting that you're doing.

Because like what you're bringing up, I think a lot of people don't understand the more lean muscle you get, the more fat you lose. And it's not the scale. It's how you look in your body circumference and everything else. And so do you find that to be something you run into a lot, one of the hurdles you have to climb over with people is their mentality. I've been running into that hurdle since, you know, I started taking people to the gym in the 80s. Right. I bet.

I mean, forever, that has been a thing. And literally, you look at it and go, gosh, if you can put on a half pound of muscle a month, you're in good shape. Big time. And so people are worried about getting bulky. I go, you know what's so awesome about lifting weights is if you decided that you were like overnight, you would like this drive-by muscle mass gain, which I've never seen happen. But let's say you said, oh, wow, I'm gaining too much muscle. You would just stop.

Right. You could just stop. So I will say in 40 years of helping people put on muscle, I've never had someone get too big. Never. It's never happened. Muscles, metabolic spanks. It holds everything in tighter. It helps you burn fat.

It helps you become more insulin sensitive, along with a whole host of other things. The only time I've had people get too bulky is when they're not like, lifting weights, right? They're not eating their protein. They're not lifting weights. They're sitting on the couch. You want to get big, sit on the couch. Yeah, right. That's how you can get big. It's not going to be you at the gym. Trust me. 100%. And in reality, too, even when we're younger, to gain that kind of weight, you've got to really up the calories. You've got to take some extra supplemental and some people, other things, but whatever the case may be, it takes a lot. It takes a ton.

When I decided, you know, to get super fired up for 60 and to prove a point, I was so sick of hearing this like, you know, it's a downhill slide. I'm like, all right, well, what if it's not? And I thought, you know, I'm going to get in the best shape of my life for 60. I hadn't done a Dexibody scan since 39. And so I actually trained for it. I upped my calories because I was like, if you really want to focus on putting on muscle, if it's your number one goal, you're better off just doing that up.

your calories, not a ton, but some, and doing that. And I literally did. It was a little bit of a mental game because I was like, all right, you're doing this on purpose, right? But I went in, and at Dexas scan at 39 and at 59 were exactly the same, same muscle, same fat-free mass, same fat mass, same weight. And then I knew what I'd been in my 20s. And because I'd put this on, I now ripped down, I did a cutting phase and went straight down to where I'd been in my 20s. But The cool thing is, I'm actually stronger than I was in my 20s. Wow. And so it's possible.

Like, it is possible to do these things. Well, plus in my 20s, I wasn't taking creatine. I wasn't taking mitapure. Like, there's all sorts of things. I wasn't taking, doing the level of protein that I'm doing. Yeah. So I was like going, all right, I know so much more now than I did then. I mean, I was afraid to take creatine back then because the bros did it.

Right. Of course. Scary. That, okay, so we got some different, we're going to shift here a different way because you brought that up. So one, I love might appear too, by the way. Right? It's amazing. Amazing.

I'm actually spoken quite a bit with a couple people there. I'm interviewing one of the formulators here in a couple weeks because I'm so into it and we've gotten into it. So that alone, we can get into that. But I want to talk about the creatine with you. I have spent the last month putting out content on creatine and explaining all of the myths, you know, that are out there. And one of the major things I'm focusing on is pre and post menopausal women. I've got my mom on it.

Yay. Yes. And she's 72. I've got my wife on it. And so I want your input because I know where I'm going with this. And there's so many benefits. I mean, from, you know, with menopausal women, what I'm finding is it's helping with some side effects, some emotional side effects, but also strength and mental clarity and

things like that bone density. what are you, what are some of the things you're finding in it and why are you such a believer in it? So women have less muscle mass than men. Duh, right? And when you look at creatine, we basically make about a gram a day from eating protein, from getting essential amino acids, right? And then we are going to also ingest creatine from meat or seafood. every day. However, we have about 100 to 140 grams of creatine in our body, and we need to take in, we need to make at least a gram a day and take in a gram or two every day from diet.

Now, women have less creatine stores than men because we have less muscle mass than men. We store creatine mostly in our muscle, a little bit in our gonads. We don't have those either, and a little bit in our brain. Right. So you look at it and go, okay, so we're making it from a gram from essential amino acids. Then we need to get another gram or two from diet. Okay, where do we get it from? We get it from meat, we get it from fish.

But cooking really takes a lot like really lowers the content. So you either have to eat barely cooked, you know, sashimi, kapaccio, that kind of stuff, meat, about a pound of it a day or two pounds of the other. No woman ever is eating that. So they're not getting it. And then you have most people doing plant-based, so they're definitely not getting it. And they're probably not getting the essential amino acids and the amounts they need either. Right. So they're deficient.

So this is a huge problem. So women tend to be deficient in it anyway, right? What's it going to help us do? Well, creatine helps us create energy, right? It's going to help with our ATP creation because creatine goes to creatine phosphate. It's our quick. fast energy. It's really important for the brain, and it's really important for working out harder, recovering better, building more muscle, building more bone. It's important for your immune system.

They're now looking at it for long COVID, by the way, and they did research with it for postmenopausal women on antidepressants. They found women on antidepressants who took creatine had way better results than people who just took antidepressant alone. So neurocognitive, TBIs. There's so many different applications, basically anything around brain, around inflammation, around muscle protein synchievous, around immune skin, skin wrinkling. So you look at it and go, these are all like energy. It's all what happens as you start to go into perimenopause and we're deficient in it. Then here's the situation with creatine I think so crazy. First of all, there's a bunch of myths out there about creatine like hair loss that's like that stupid like soccer guys where their

D.HT was raised, but they don't even know why because they didn't check to see if they were on like anything else. Right. And they didn't even track that their hair was, the hair went down, but there's hair loss. There's no hair loss. It's never been shown. No. I will tell you, and I don't have the study published yet, but there is a study coming out

that, um, that, that I, that I have been told about that shows that 76% of women who go on creatine monohydrate. will struggle with fluid retention or gas and bloating. Really? Here's reality. Here's the crazy thing. So I said that you needed probably a gram of creatine a day. By the way, you take extra if you are, have sleep deprivation, jet lag.

It's amazing if you're under more stress. But when you look at creatine monohydrate, the recommendations are three to five grams a day. Right. And you'll hear that it's all absorbed. Well, it's not all absorbed. Because if it was all absorbed, you wouldn't need three to five grams a day. you'd need a gram. Mm-hmm.

Turns out it's about 15% absorbed. And that's why you're getting some of the GI issues, the fluid retention, but you'll always hear to use creatine monohydrate because it's the most studied form. It doesn't matter. We're not looking at the form. We're looking at the effect that creatine has on your body. Mm-hmm. And so, year ago, I was doing a talk for a medical conference, and afterwards, this

creatine formulator came up to me. and started to show me, goes, you know, there's a better creatine out there that doesn't cause all this stuff. And I thought, this is, you know, we should take creatine monotone. I was like, the parrot. You should take creatine monohydrate. All the studies are on there because it's like what I heard out there. And then I looked at all the research and looked at the difference in this in when it isn't 100% absorbed. In fact, nothing is 100% absorbed.

So who says that is off their rock or anyway. It turns out that the form that he created, because you came from talking about, psychology and you wanted to solve the problem because he was working, he was actually drug testing athletes. Wow. And so, you know, he was hearing from athletes, oh, I really want like to be able to use this and this is happening. And so he created creatine HCL. It's 99% absorbed. So you only need like 750 milligrams to get to where you need to be versus the five grams of creatine monohydrate. So what's cool about it is you don't get the bloating and you don't get the GI stuff that you'll get from regular creatine. So a lot of the stuff that women freak out about isn't going to happen.

And you might, if you are fortunate enough to get any fluid into your muscles, like I go game winner, you know, wish that would happen, didn't happen to me. But we actually want that. That's a great thing, you know. And if you're doing biopedence testing, you'll see that as total body water and that's fantastic. Right. But creatine, I think every woman, I think every woman period should be on it. Now, the other cool thing about creatine HCL as opposed to monohydrate, and some people feel fine on monohydrate, it's like great. Use five grams of it. It's fine. But I just, when I started pushing it out into the world, I got so much kickback from people saying I tried that, I gained weight. And I was like, okay, no woman ever is going to take something if they gain weight. It's just the reality of it.

Right. But it also crosses the blood-brain barrier. So that's a huge thing. In fact, when I learned about this, I turned another friend on to it who's doing a bunch of neurodegenerative disease research so that she could use it in her studies. So I am super fired up about the HCL version. And I gave you some, didn't I? No. When I created?

No, I need some. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, give me your address and I'll send it to you. So when I learned all this stuff, I went, all right, what could we do to make this work even better? And if you look at, like, there's research out there showing that creatine and magnesium together work better than either one on its own. It's an exponential, not additive effect. Then you look at Taurine.

Taurine can help fiatine kinase so that then it's going to work, make creatine phosphate work better. So I put together a Taurine-creating magnesium product called Chiatine. Really? Chiatine. No way. Okay, cool. Is that great.

That is, I'm telling you, and I love this because, you know how, you know, just what you just said. You get on this kick, you hear so many people say it, and then you just start parroting it. And I've been seeing it with monohydrate. And for so many years, because I started in this so far back, and it was always looking at different forms of creatine. And there were different arguments and different facts. And now all of a sudden... It's my cute little chitin. Yeah. Sweet. My husband named... I know, well, I was parroting. Like, I really started to really try to pay attention to what I'm saying, going, Did I look at the research on that?

Because, like, you know, now I've looked at all the research and I go, where are they getting this? Then you'll hear, oh, no, you should only use creopure creatine. Yes. And I'm like, because it's done with water, I'm like, no, they're all like, it's just the BS out there. And it's smart people saying this stuff. So that's where it gets even more confusing, you know. And it makes you wonder, well, it makes you wonder two things. A, are they getting paid for it?

or B, are they just, are they parroting just like everybody else? And it's people that we know that we respect that are held in a highlight. Yep. And so it's easy to follow what they say. It really is. But I'm like you. I push the envelope and I don't give a shit what anybody says if I find something that I find to be more accurate.

So, I mean, that's, I think the deep thinkers and the people that are successful are the ones that do that. So I love that you did that. I definitely want to try it. So for you, because once again, the rhetoric is that you would want to, want five grams a day up to about 180 pounds and that you could literally go to 10 grams over that, which I find to be nonsensical personally. With the HCL in terms of women to man dosing, what would you recommend then for each men and women? You know, again, it's going to depend on

your diet. Another thing I'm really a big fan of are essential amino acids. I think that it makes a ton of sense, especially for women, just to add that into your regimen. And so if someone is eating protein first, they're optimizing their protein, they're augmenting with some essential amino acids, 752, you know, milligrams to a gram for, say, someone, 140, 150 pounds, maybe. Now, I will, if I am traveling or like if I'm going to go do a round, you know, a gram for, say, someone, 100, 40, 150 pounds. Maybe. Now, I will, I will, if I'm to go do a really hard workout. Maybe I'll do 1.5 grams, but, you know, two grams at the most. But I also, and I also eat a lot of, I eat a lot of meat and fish. Me too.

Like, these people that say, I can't figure how to get that protein in. I'm like, what are you talking about? Thank you. Just eat it first. Dude. Like, so let me, let me just explain something to people, then me and you can get a good laugh at this. So, for instance, before right now, I just had 12 ounces of sea bass before. we started. I'm already 70 grams of protein. There were 6570. And then when I'm done, I'm going to have

half a pound of bison. That's another 60 or 70. So I'm at 140 and two meals. So I was like looking at it going, where am I at today? Because I'm just like a little like I hear this. I go, I understand. I'm at 140, 136 grams of protein already and I haven't had dinner. Me too. Like what is hard? It's not hard. Just eat it first. The reason you're not eating like, Here's the thing, Dylan, this drove me nuts. I was doing a talk very similar to the eutamonia, powerful aging talk. And then I went out to dinner with a lot of the people from the talk. And I watched this woman sit down.

She was at the talk in the front row. Okay, so I'm like, and now I'm just curious. We all order. I order a steak. And I'm now sitting down watching her, and she has an appetizer, which is like, you know, I don't know, some breaded terrible thing. Then she has a salad, which she's turned into a steak. Sunday because it's got like candy garbage on it.

Yeah. And then she's going to have eggplant because she's full. And she's having a glass of wine. And I'm looking at her and she's looking at me looking at her. And she goes, you're going to protein shame me, aren't you? And I go, absolutely. Like, I absolutely am going to protein shave you. Good Lord.

I go, actually what I'm just going to do is give you part of my steak. She was, oh, but I'm so full. I go, what she didn't realize is like that breaded eggplant. garbage that she was going to eat, which eggplant, eggplant's just a nasty tasting thing. Let's be honest. The only way to make eggplant taste great is if you soak it in olive oil,

bread it, throw some cheese on it. So by the time you're eating it, you're getting like, I don't know, a thousand calories of fat. Right. And five calories of eggplant. So she somehow thinks she's going to eat light with this you know, fat bomb on her plate instead of her four ounces

steak. I just I am at a loss sometimes. And, you know, when you said that people say, how am I going to get my protein? I think they just like to say that and don't look at numbers. And I mean, you could just do, it's 10 egg whites. You take 10 times 3.45 for protein. I mean, you're already 35 grams of protein. And 10 egg whites is not, you don't.

It is not hard. I get that little, those sprouts, cage-free egg whites. So today I had like two eggs, poured a bunch of egg whites in, easy-peasy. It's so simple. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so good. Let's talk about that. and protein intake. So I am on the side of, and if you're, you know, everybody's different in terms of

what they need based on weight and their activity. But I am on the side of trying to build muscle. Like if you're really trying to build muscle, more in that 1.5 range. Now, granted, everybody's different on what they can and cannot do. But what are you, what are your ratios or your ideas and thoughts on that? First of all, everybody should be trying to build muscle. Right. Well, I agree. And everybody should be trying to build quality muscle. Right. So I also think there's,

you know, because if you look at training, what was interesting when I was in grad school and I was doing this project that I was testing if your quad strength was bigger, would you have better spinal lifting biomechanics? Seems obvious, right? But that was the thesis.

And so I had to build strength quickly. But it's interesting, building strength is actually different than building muscle. And so I like to kind of hit the middle because we do want to build strength, power, and muscle. So do heavy things fast. Remember the ultra-slow training?

I'm like, this is not good. We do not want to train slow. This is bad. I know they were all like time under tension. I'm like, train slow, go slow. Yeah, I'm with you. No, I can't do any of that. And also, when we were talking about cardio earlier,

I don't think people understand what, like, you know, muscular endurance is. So you can train cardio by super setting or resting 30 seconds. That's cardio. It's all cardio training. Yep. It's, oh, it's so, I mean, like, you want to lose weight, do resistance training. You want to get a better V-O-2 max, do resistance. Like, it's just, it's so clear.

And you could do, you know, some high-intensity functional training. Right. That's what I like to do now for my hit is I'll do, like, you know, up downs. Then I'll do mountain climbers. Then I'll do, right, squat jumps. And so I'm doing that kind of. stuff. I say I like to do it. I hate like, hate like. Anyway, so over to muscle. So what I tell people, I think the low end, the lowest end should be 0.7 grams per pound. From everything I've

looked at, that seems to be the low end. Right. And then, you know, more to me, I'd rather pat it because it's an insurance policy. So, but for me, and I think if you're trying to find and lose weight or recomp, eat more protein. You'll be full. It's more thermic. Like, you know, you eat 100 calories of protein, you're going to absorb, what, 75 of those? Because it's so metabolically costly to do muscle protein turnover versus you eat 100 grams of fat. You've got 100 grams of 400 or 900 calories there. You're not using any of that in the digestion of fat. What are you going to use like 10 calories? So, you know, it's, so. super costly. It's super satiating.

Most people aren't going to pig out on it. Like, never, ever has anyone gone, I went to the movies and I ate 12 chickens. Yeah. Bucgets and popcorn. Like, if you give me the endless bucket of popcorn at the movies, like, I'm going to be the pig to the trough at movies. I'll just keep going back.

And it's like back and back and back. So for me, personally, I do more in the one and a half grams per pound of body weight because I just, so I eat about 200 grams of protein a day. That's awesome. I just feel, and I've always felt better that way. I've always eaten that way.

And I remember I did a biome test years ago and they're like, you have the genetics that just do better with lots of protein. I'm like, I don't know, I think everybody is the genetics that just does better with lots of protein. I agree. I've been doing some really deep studies like, well, with CGMs and then also,

I've done breath analysis. is to see how my body's responding to things and changing things up. And I've battled eating issues a lot of my life. And I've just finally snapped out of it. And what I'm finding is for me personally, I'm kind of like almost like a 45, 40, 15, where it's like 45 protein, 40, 15 carbs. And that's where I'm really, I'm doing about 275, 285 protein because I weigh 185 is kind of where I'm at.

And I'm normally about like 80 to 100 fats depending on the day. And then my carbs are maybe 100 to 100. But I'm thriving on it. I haven't been cut up since I was like using performance enhancers, you know, which I haven't done forever. But I am that cut up now just from the diet switch alone. It's amazing. But you have to kind of learn your body.

But the protein to me is the backbone and the key. It only has been. Well, and the thing is, if you're eating healthy, clean protein, you're going to get fat with it because all animal protein comes with fat. And even if you're doing egg whites, like I'll always do a couple eggs with egg whites, because I can't get enough protein just from eggs. I'll so overload it. Right. But, you know, you think about it and go, all right, you know, tonight we're having grass-fed beef.

We'll get some fat there. You know, I had the egg, egg-white thing, so I got some fat. So you'll get fat with the animal protein. And then you'll use a little extra virgin olive oil and cooking, and you're good. Yep. Like, that's it, you know? Yep. You don't need to go put a pound of butter on your steak.

No. No, you don't. Absolutely. You have to learn how to be tricky and make things good, which you certainly can. It's not difficult if you just take the time and try and learn. It's really not. You know what I do, honestly, is like when I cook my fish, my salmon or sea bass is what I eat. I put a little bit of almond butter on there and melt it on there when I eat it. Lemon butter on fish.

I do. That is the weirdest sounding thing. You have to try it. I swear to you. Really? I do a teaspoon of olive oil when I cook it on there, chives and a little. spoon of almond butter and I melt it in the oven and I'm telling you, blow you away. Wow. Well, my husband's in charge of, so I make the vegetables every night and he makes the protein. So he,

we are like air friar freaks. Really? I got to tell you salmon and sea bass in the air friar is like the freaking best thing. And he makes these chicken thighs. Have you tried pluck? No. Oh my gosh. Where have you been? So James Very, chef James has organ meat. It's organ meat spice. It sounds disgusting. Like, it sounds really disgusting. But it's fantastic. So, because I won't eat organ meat. Right. But we take this, we take like a teaspoon, sprinkle it over chicken thighs, throw it into the air fryer. And I swear to God, it's chicken crack. Really? It's like, oh, it, chicken crack. Yeah. Uh-huh. I'll tell chef James, like, he's, he's a sweetheart. I'll get him to get you to pluck you up.

Oh, please. in a note. You're going to think I'm crazy, but for the first time in my life, yesterday I had venison. I'd never had it in my life. And I told my wife, this is one of the greatest things I've ever tasted. It's just unbelievable. So I'm like on that kick now for sure. I'm alternating bison venison, but I would love to try what you're talking about for something different. I'm trying to try everything. I put it on my vegetables. It's amazing stuff because we do a lot of cauliflower peel off is Like my cauliflower, so I take cauliflower rice and then I throw the extra stuff in there. So whatever extra vegetables like tonight, last night I made dandelion greens very advanced and like collard greens,

a bunch of different greens with onions and mushrooms. We do a lot of mushrooms. Me too. Like I'm a mushroom freak. Me too. And zucchini. Mushroom zucchini and green peppers, but I'm Italian. So I'm like raised green peppers and I hate zucchini. Really? Oh my gosh. I eat them every day. Oh, boy. But the mushrooms, you know what's funny? The stuff I thrive on now I wouldn't touch when I was a kid. I wouldn't eat fish.

I wouldn't eat peanut butter and I wouldn't eat mushrooms. And now I can't go a day without any of those. Literally. It's weird when you get, I think that it was textures and things like that. So the sea bass, that sea bass is 30 bucks a pound, but I don't even care. Like, I get it all the time. It's so damn good. Yeah, Chile and C.

I had to get, Tim hated it for a while. And I'm like, really? Wait. This. So every time I went out, he's gotten over himself. He now likes it. It literally tastes like you're eating butter. I know. It does. It's the best. Oh my God. Best to best. Oh, wow. Okay. So I'm curious then when you're structuring diets for people and it's subjective to the individual their age, I understand that. But do you, are you more of a, do you always like primary protein first is the most macronutrient of what they're getting. And how do you view carbohydrates? I'm just curious from

another dietitian, how you look at carbohydrates and how you implement them. So eat protein first. Everything's designed around protein because that's the one you can't mess with. Right. You have to get 0.7. And if you want to really recomp, you want to gain muscle drop fat, just eat more protein. It's simple. Right? And so that's that's the place that it has to be at least 0.7, but really probably one gram per pound. And if you want to go up from there, make it easier, then you can't. Right. The next thing that I do is say at least five servings of non-stargy vegetables, I'd prefer 10.

With a serving being a cup of raw or a half cup of cooked. Got it. So just a lot of vegetables. Then a couple servings of fruit, I prefer berries, maybe an apple. And then you're using some healthy fats in the cooking, so probably some extra virgin olive oil. and I pretty much stick with extra virgin olive oil, ghee, and avocado oil. You know, every once in a while I go wild with, like,

I love sesame oil, the flavor of it. And thankfully, it's not one of the bad seed oil, so I'll use a little bit of that, but that's it. That's like my whole fat thing. If we are, like, this weekend, my son's making Korean fried chicken, so we'll use beef tallow and do a deep fryer thing. But that's like a treat.

Right. So that, like, that's, like, that's, that's that. And then I don't really, I just eat a load of vegetables and a little bit of fruit. Like, honestly, that's it. You know, I don't really eat any other, I mean, every once in a while. If I'm going to, I was trying to think, like, what would I eat if I was eating other carbs? Like, maybe like if I throw some lentils into cauliflower, rice, peel off or have a little bit of black beans. But it's kind of rare. Don't really do it. The highest carbohydrate thing I have personally is I have avocado toast on the Ezekiel bread, you know, during the week. That's really the highest. Otherwise, I'm with you. I do five to ten servings of vegetables a day every single day.

And then I do. Here's another question I have for you because I have eaten oatmeal like, and I'm talking, you know, the non-glyphosate, the best supposed best you can get. And I'm finding more and more people talking about how to avoid it. I'm curious what your thoughts are on oatmeal. And it being more kind of demonized now. You've got two people get really offended that love it. And then there's people that hate it.

So what is your thought on it? I just don't feel good with like I don't feel good with heavy carbs in the morning. Yeah. So I personally freaking love oatmeal. But I do not feel good with it. Really? I don't like I don't really eat it. Now I think that if you're going to get organic and you had it like I really love the savory oatmeal.

I did this once on Dr. Oz. They were like, we want to do this thing with savory oatmeal. I go, ew, really? Well, I made it with bone broth and put some mushrooms. And it was freaking amazing. Wow. So, you know, but I would probably do that more at lunch. Like, I find I just do better in the morning when I don't really hit a big carb thing.

Yeah. I don't know. And I always hear like, oh, you're going to the gym. Do like that. I go, I probably get 10 grams of carbs in in the morning, but I don't really do much. I just don't feel good. So I don't know. Like oatmeal in the morning makes me feel crappy.

So I think, I don't think it's peasant food, Dave. And, you know, clearly, you know, you want to eat the gluten-free. So in a not-gloat and organic and blah, blah, blah. But I don't tend to eat grains. So I just feel better without them. I'm trying to get more away from it. Now, I don't look at it as a breakfast food. To be honest, it's more of a later evening.

food for me, honestly, when I eat it. A late evening food. Yeah, which I know is one of my- that doesn't sound like a good idea. It's one of my pitfalls that I've been doing a long time that I'm trying to get away from. I'd say, I'd say that's the weak point of my diet because I don't cheat. I don't eat out. I literally, when we go on vacation, we don't eat out. I don't eat out. I just don't. Everything's cooked. That's probably my one. Now, I put, once again, almond or walnut butter and protein powder in mine, and once in a while an egg white, and if you cook the egg white in it, it lowers the glucose spike with it. Well, but here's the thing with the whole glucose spike thing.

You know, there's a spike and there's the under the curve. Yes. If you are very metabolically healthy and you eat something and your blood sugar goes up 60 points and comes right back down, who the head cares? True. Who cares? True. Like, why are we getting so whacked about this?

First of all, I can't stand the idea that we're going to use apple cider vinegar so we can eat a donut. I'm like, you miss the plight. You've totally missed the plot here. Right? And, you know, isn't the whole point of this to have a slow rise, slow fall? And if you do have something that's going to take it up, if it comes straight back down again, and if you do notice it comes up, do some freaking air squats.

Right, right. You know, but it's really, where's the problem with glucose? It's when it comes up and stays up. Right, right. So now that you said that, I have a good question for you. And I fight with the bros over this shit my whole life. the all calories are equal thing. I will fight till I'm blue in the face

that that is bullshit. It's total, how could it be like, okay, so I think this is where they come from is they'll look at them in terms of weight loss, but they're not looking at body composition and fat fat. No.

So, yes, okay, because there was the, the Twinky Diet guy. Remember the nutrition scientist? Yeah. He was like,

okay, so yes, if you do chloric restriction and you eat total garbage and chlorically or sick, you could lose weight, but they're not doing body composition and going, is it muscle? Am I accumulating more visceral adipose tissue? You know, what is going on? What I used to always say is your body's not a bank account. It's a chemistry lab. However, thermodynamics matter. So I think your body is a bank account, but it's also a chemistry lab.

Yeah. And it's a history book. So, you know, traumas matter. Insulin resistance matters. Toxins matter. So you look at history. book and it's like toxins and trunk. Then you look at the bank account and go, well, you can't just too much healthy. Food's not healthy, right? Right. Of course. And then you look at chemistry lab and go, but ultimately, you could eat the same diet, same amount of calories, but if your calories were high in fructose, high in carbs, high in seed oils, and low in protein, you would have a very different body composition than someone who was eating a high protein, the right types of fat, and a little bit of high fiber carbs with lots of polyphenols, it would be very different. You'd have very different

health. But that argument with the bros, they're looking at weight. And they're not looking at metabolic health markers. And if they are, they're not looking at them over time. I mean, one month, like, you know, they'll say the diet that heals you isn't the diet for long term. Like, that's the whole thing I think was carnivore diet. It's like, hey, it can be a great thing for a month to two months to three months as an elimination diet and get people out of the food noise. But is that the long-term thing for your gut microbiome? I don't think so. No, that's my argument. I always want to say, show me your blood. I'm a big blood panel person. That's kind of one of the things I do that people hire me to do is manage their blood profiles and their markers. And I always say,

let's just do a cholesterol profile on the people that have 500 calories of kids. Cats and Twinkies and ice cream and 500 calories of chicken and meat and fish. And then you tell me the difference. I think that is so obvious and it just pisses me off to no end. So I'm sorry of getting riled up. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just think the, you know, let's look at your visceral adipose tissue. Yeah.

Like, let's just do that. Let's do a waste of hip. And we'll just do it, you know, put people on the same thing. No way. No. And maybe for a couple weeks, but like a couple months? No. Come on.

No, no. And like the Dexas scan, like you said, let's measure all of that and just see how we're looking muscle-wise, body fat-wise, everything. And we'll see. You know, I'll bet you my house that the side eating better will look better and feel better. So, okay. So I want to shift to you. Now that we got that out of the way. Yeah, had to do that. As soon as you brought that up, it was like, score. Okay. So I was talking to you about this before. And I'm smiling because I'm laughing because when I brought it up of what you said. But I want to talk. to talk to you about GLP-1s. I want your thoughts on them. And just for people, why I'm laughing is I was at the Eudomonia conference this year and got to see JJ speak on a panel about GOP-1s, which I thought I was going into like a conference and an explanation. And it turned out to be like World War III. I mean, we had amazing scientists there. Yeah. Not been taken over. They got verbally whacked up there, like a beautiful. I mean, I felt kind of bad, but you had, not only did you have the most mature and good delivery,

but you had the actual facts instead of just getting angry and saying things that didn't really have anything to back them up, or saying you had studies in the back that you could go get, but not know how to cite them. You know who I'm talking about. Oh, tell me first, why do you think that they are so polarizing in general, and then which kind of your outlook on them? It is bizarre. Why? Like, could you imagine someone getting shamed going on a diabetes medication or a high blood pressure medication? No. Like, like, or even using, say, BPC 157? No. Top died? Like, no one's shaming them. No.

What is going on here that we have all of this body shaming and shaming around using a GLP1 as if it's a crutch or cheating, etc? Here's the reality. You don't lose weight to get healthy. You actually have to get healthy to lose weight. Thank you. And once you get that, I remember the first time I heard it, because I heard it from an amazing endocrinologist out in Santa Barbara, Dr. Diana Schwartz, fine.

And I go, that's a really unpopular thing to say. You know, she's like, it could take time for you to get metabolically healthy to be able to hold onto muscle and lose fat. but if you're doing things wrong, you'll just shed muscle, you'll hurt yourself. And so, you know, we have a metabolic crisis right now. Like, it's the latest research showed that less than 7% of the population was metabolically healthy, that now we have over 40% of the population is obese, 70% plus are overweight or obese. Of the other percentage, you look at it and go, very few of them are metabolically healthy because a lot of them who've maintained their weight by diet alone are fat

inside and thin outside. They're tofies. So we've got sarcopenic obesity. We've got obesity. We've got overweight. And we've got fatty liver. What 40% of the people plus are walking around with fatty liver? Then what you hear is that people who are obese, people who are insulin resistant, people who I'd argue now, it's almost a... I remember hearing that 100% of the people were going to have diabetes by 2030. I go, that is the most ridiculous thing ever. And now you're like going,

well, we're really close to having 100% of people insulin resistant. Right. And if you're insulin resistant, if you're fatty liver, if you're obese, the theory is that you probably have a GLP1 deficiency. And I'm betting that you probably could have a resistance to GLP1 as well. Because think about, we get insulin resistance.

We get all sorts of hormone resistances. So why not? So you have people who now are eating ultra-processed food, 70% of the diet in the U.S. is ultra-processed food, which is wayless thermic and also people tend to eat over-eat-on. And then you're going to say, you know what? You know what? Like one person on the panel, we just need to eat less and exercise more. I go, I cannot believe in 2024, I am hearing this. This is the solution to the challenge with these people who are in a metabolic hole and need a freaking life raft.

They need something. They need a helping hand to pull them out. And we finally have a helping hand. And the problem with the situation is we have drug companies controlling the dosage, hammering people with dosages that shut off their signals altogether. So now they can't think about the fact that they're hungry and they can't hear anything. And so now they're not eating at all. Now they're losing muscle and they're making themselves worse.

However, the tool itself isn't the problem. And they keep going, oh, they're causing muscle loss. It's like, no, they're not. The improper use of them is any poorly controlled diet, you put someone on a calorie restricted diet that's that level, they're going to lose muscle. You have them not eat protein and not exercise. They're going to lose muscle.

You design a well-designed diet that's high protein, doing resistance training. give them a little bit of GLP1 agonist. While you're doing things to restore their gut microbiome, like giving them acrimancia, while you're doing things like Calicurb, which we know can raise their GLP1 for four to six hours, you're doing all the things. We can turn this metabolic health crisis around in a very short amount of time. And it would be a lot less expensive. Right. I'm with you 100%. And that's part of the problem, too. And like what you said, that calorie restriction, which can actually screw up your metabolism more than help it.

I'm telling you right now, I'm eating six, seven hundred more calories than I was because I was really, the amount that I work out and like don't eat enough, it was just ruining me. And now I'm eating more and cutting down more. So it's, it's all about metabolic health. And you want that. You want the energy flux. You want to move more and eat more. You don't want to move less and eat less. And what do we know? We know that when you do caloric restriction, you know what your body does? It goes, shoot, I'm going to move less. And you might say, oh, but I went to the gym for 30 minutes, but you probably stopped all of your non-exercise activity thermogenesis, which is your biggest dry.

When you look at your metabolism, how can you really change your metabolism? Put on more muscle. Eat protein. It's the most thermic. So we've got basal metabolic rate, put on more muscle. We've got thermic effect of food, eat protein. And then we've got activity. And sure, go to the gym, but make sure you're moving more.

That would be the bigger driver, right? build muscle, move more. That's it. There's the secret. I totally agree. You take a little hit of GLP1 if you need it. Because it's going to heal. Like here's the cool thing with GL1s.

They are healing. Yep. It's not a, that's the difference that people don't get. This is not just like a, because you'll hear, oh, you have to be on for life. I go, well, first of all, you were going to be on your blood pressure medication, your cholesterol medication, your diabetes medication for life. So now you've got rid of all of those. You're on a little dose of something else.

And you might be able to get off of it at some point, which is worse? This one or that one? Sorry, I think all of those are way worse. That makes me so. Oh, yeah, so let's take a statin for life that has 900 negatives and one benefit. Yeah, that's going to give you cancer most likely because we should just shut down your cholesterol production that you need to make your hormones and is an antioxidant. Yeah, it's just absolute insanity.

So with the GOP ones for you, well, one, I think we both agree that a lot of the dosing is way too high. I'm more on the side of, depending on the condition, but for a lot of people, the microdosing side is what I have found in studies and with people that I've coached and talked to to be the most effective in terms of side effects and compensating. These are great. Like, if you just go and start to go on consensus and look at their research on what these can do for neurocognition, for cardiovascular health, for kidney health, for bone health, for muscle health. Holy smokes. Yeah. No. And there's so many peptides out there. there that have this ability to do so many different things. I'm like a peptide of obsessionist.

Like I said, I was telling you earlier, I started studying them in 2010 before they were, they were just research chemicals underground, right? So, I know, buying them. I remember the first ones I bought I had to buy with Bitcoin. Yeah. It's like, okay. So when I started, it was SARMs and peptides that I was known for in my videos. And with peptides, you can only buy about seven or eight. And it was basically GHRP-26, Melanatan, CJC, 1295, and then MK6,7, that was it. That was it. Now there's thousands to pick from. How do you, so how do you feel about, you know, peptide use and where it's going and are you more on the proponent's side, more on the negative side? Where are you standing on that? I think all this stuff's fantastic. I love it. However,

it's just like with biohacking. I think that what I don't want to see happen is what happened the The other night I was out at dinner. It was actually New Year's Eve. We were barefoot and black tie on a boat dock. It was absolutely one of the most beautiful evenings. And I'm sitting next to this guy, and he's telling me about all the things he's been at. And he like jumps around all these biohacking events. And I said, so what do you do for exercise?

And then he kind of sheepish hemmeda. And so I'm like going, all right. So you're saunaying. You're doing peptides. You're doing all the stuff. But you forgot to lift weights. Good Lord. And you forgot to do hit training.

And here's what I'd say about all these things. You can't use peptides as a replacement for eating crap. You can't use peptides as a replacement for not working out. So to me, you must start with the foundation stuff. And then, like, orthomolecular like vitamin D, fish oils, magnesium, like the basic stuff. And then peptides for the win, you know, like, let's go. Yes. Yes, 100%.

So just one more question for you, because I know I could talk to you all day now that we've been going like this. I didn't know we were going to have this good of a conversation. But in terms of anything maybe that you've experimented with or you would like to, because, like, I talk to all of the underground owners. I know them all well because of all my, you know, work and I like data. So BBC is clearly the most sold, most popular now. I'm a big proponent on it, by the way, but are there any others that you find interesting or that you've maybe, you know, look into trying at some point? So low-dose, microdosing, Tresepetide, BPC 157. My husband, like, heard all the sexual benefits of melanotan.

I've been there. I've been there. Okay, then so he's like, he overdosed me. I ended up in a fetal position going, I think I'm going to throw up. Oh. That was not effective. I'm like, nope, get away from me with that. But I've been using orals from health jebity.

Okay. Have you heard of this company? I have. Yes, I have. Okay, so they have a peptic strong that I'm a big fan of. And I also do their oral BPC 157 because what I've heard is that it can help with autoimmune disease more if you take it orally. So I've been doing more of their orals. Okay.

Because I really hate injections. I'm on TRT and I've, you know, prior use of things. I hate injections too. I actually use a BPC 157 TB 500 gel that I love. And I use a GHKU copper peptide gel as well that I really love. So, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, I do a little T shot and a little triseptide shot every couple weeks.

Nice, definitely. And another good one is MOTC is a really good one that is pretty, safe and then I like Tessa Morel and myself. Everybody has their... Yeah, I did that. I forgot. I did like, like there was a while there was doing a bunch of them. And then I just kind of moved over to the orals and forgot about it. Yeah. Well, you know, there, there's a lot of people working on different deliveries and trying to make more topicals and oral. The efficacy is questionable. But I know a lot of people working on it. And I'm sure it's going to end gummies and things. They will be, they will be

coming down the line. So there'll be options because the injection... It's fighting time, isn't it? It is so damn exciting. I mean, and that's why I say, like, here I am 61, 10% body fat, you know, doing pull-ups, doing push-ups, and jump training, all the stuff. And it's like, because I've got creatine and peptistrong and, like, all the stuff. Yes. That I didn't have in my 20s.

It's amazing. And where you could go with this, I mean, you're going to do things that would seem impossible because we have these capabilities now. It is possible. I guarantee it. I have never felt this good. And I'm turning 43. Now, granted, that's not old, but still, I've been through the ringer. And it's like, you know, all of these things that we have at our disposal now.

It's amazing. I know. It's super cool. It's so funny because it's like, well, these are middle age and it's like 60s. I'm like, on what planet? Like, how long? Like, not for me, man. I'm still like middle age for me.

That's all nonsense. Yeah, that is just whatever. So, look, I am, I have had a blast. talking with you. It's been awesome. I really appreciate your time. Real quick, is there anything you got new on the horizon you want to tell anybody about or anything coming or? A book? But it's not until probably March. Literally, I'm about to turn the draft in. Oh, my gosh. Really? Yeah. Awesome. Congratulations again. Well. Yes. The big thing now is my is chyotene, man. I'm like determined to get women on creatine. That is my, my, my,

focus. I am with you. Women on creatine. I will help you deliver that message as much as I can, and I will certainly try it too, and I appreciate it. Yes, because you know what? Sheotene, if you cover the S, it becomes heotene. It's right. I don't give a shit as long as it works, what it says, I'll try it. So it doesn't matter to me. Well, where can people, and I'll put everything in the description, but where should people go to follow you the most, what's your kind of bread and butter sites and where you want people to go? Bread and butter site is JJ. Virgin.com. I have a podcast too. It would be fun to have you on it.

I love to. So yes, we'll have to hook that up. So podcast is when I've been leaning into a lot. So well beyond 40. And of course podcast websites got all the awesome. All right. Sweet. Well, I'll link everything too for everybody

to follow you. And once again, like I said, it's a pleasure. It was an honor. And it was just a damn fun conversation. I look forward to talking to you. That was a great conference. Yes. It was a great conference. was. I love it. Yeah, I'm glad they're doing it again. I know. I know. I can't wait. So, well, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate and I look forward to talking with

you more in the future. So thank you everybody and stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Jameli and JJ Virgin signing off.