THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Build Your Business Empire w/ Tom Patterson

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

This week we get very DETAILED on how to build and scale your business and your life.This week, I'm thrilled to bring you a captivating conversation with a true business visionary, TOM PATTERSON, co-founder of the renowned clothing brand TOMMY JOHN.Tom and his wife Erin embarked on an extraordinary journey, transforming men's undergarments through their sheer determination and passion. Their story remains one of the PUREST EXAMPLES of what it means to be an ENTREPRENEUR, and their journey has become one of the GREAT AMERICAN BUSINESS SUCCESS STORIES in recent years.During this episode, Tom and I dive deep into the secrets of being an entrepreneur, running a business, and unlocking your full potential including:The art of salesmanshipEffective marketing strategies that propel your business forwardUnleashing the transformative power of humility, resilience, and gratitudeThe hidden trait of competitiveness and how it can fuel your drive to excel.A game-changing encounter with HOWARD STERN that shifted the trajectory of Tommy John.The sacrifices Tom and Erin made to build their business and the ultimate worth of their efforts.The role of faith as a calming and stabilizing force in the face of challenges.Navigating rejection and transforming it into a catalyst for growth.PLUS we delve into the age-old question that has fueled endless debates: Does everyone possess the inherent qualities to be an entrepreneur? And more importantly, do YOU have what it takes?Join us for this powerful masterclass in entrepreneurship, business, and personal growth. Discover the possibilities that lie within you and unleash your full potential. This is an episode you won't want to miss.

This is the Ed Millett Show. Alright, welcome back to the show everybody. Today I have one of the great American entrepreneurial stories of our time. And in fact, the gentleman and his wife that started this company, they're one of the main sponsors of our show. It's ironic because it wasn't the reason I had a mom, but we've been doing ads for Tommy John forever. They're my favorite ads to do because I'm a raving fanatic, not just a client because

that's what they have. But over the last little while, mutual friends have introduced the two of us and I've been really captivated by this man's brain. And so today is really going to be an entrepreneurial and business masterclass with somebody who's in the throes of doing it right now building one of the great American I world wide brands actually you know one of the brands that I hear all the time from other people and I want to pick his brain about that and life in general so Tom Patterson welcome to the show thanks said It's an honor. I'm so grateful to be here

You've made such an impact on me my family my, my marriage, my business, and I just love you giving your gift to millions of people. And I feel like I was one of the first, Aaron and I were one of the first thousand followers of your podcast back when you started. And just to see where it came and gone to is just incredible. So an honor to be here. Thank you for having us. You know, when we met in person, finally, because your reputation proceeded, you've just bought your humility and, you know, also your big brain

and the things you've done in business, I got to tell you, you exceeded my expectations when we met. And by the way, I appreciate those compliments, but you're the one with this massive business right now. It's just unbelievable. What you and Aaron have accomplished. I want to start out though, I want to ask you something. you started Tommy John during a recession. I did. I think there's a lesson in there because I think we're in one right now. Most people would say we're in one or some version of it. I think a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, this is going to be terrible for me business-wise.

Just speak to that to begin with the idea and notion of starting an recession. Why it might actually be a good thing? I think it's very relevant. I think there's never a perfect time to start a recession. Why it might actually be a good thing. Yeah, I think it's very relevant. And I think there's never a perfect time to start a business. And I was a former medical device salesman wearing a suit and tie living in San Diego. And I was looking for an undershirt

that stayed tucked in back in 2007. And Aaron, my wife had started a business selling beauty supplies online and inspired me to think like, what's my idea gonna be? And at that time, there was a show called The Big Idea with Donnie Doige. Donnie's been on the show. I love him.

And the big idea, and the big idea was all these entrepreneurs came on and they talked about their idea, how they came up with it, and a lot of them solved a problem when that was personal to them. So every day I'd wake up after I watched the show thinking, what can I solve? What's my problem? And it was my undershirts. They rode up, they're a baggy, they're boxy, they came on

tucked. And I thought, maybe there's a better way to make an undershirt. And that really set me down this path to reinvent a men's undershirt that solved my problem. My middle name's John. I threw in the 70s. I've not had elbow surgery. No relation to the picture. People have called me Tommy since I was a little kid. And this was in early 2008 when the idea came into place. We launched in April 2008. Right in the middle. And started selling independent men's specialty stores in Southern California, October 2008. I'm laid off my medical sales job. And I read this article that there's no better time

to start a company than during recession. And I thought to myself, I don't want to be your 20 years now. I wasn't married at the time. I was, I didn't have kids. I didn't own a house. I didn't want to be a cudd of woodish or a guy. I didn't want to have any regrets. And I thought, if I lose everything, I can still go back and get a medical sales job. I liked it. I wouldn't say I thought it was my vision or path for the next 20 years. But I thought if there's a time medical sales job. I liked it. I wouldn't say I thought it was my vision or path for the next 20 years. But I thought if there's a time to go, now's the time.

And there was no plan B. I was gonna update my resume, spend time interviewing. It was that burn the boats moment. Went all in, cash up my 401k, my savings, use my friends at American Express, Visa, Mastercard to finance a lot of it. And just, you know, I think went all in.

And for me, it was that moment. It was that tipping point in hindsight where just things kind of aligned. I read the right article. I was laid off my job at the right time. And it was a big blessing in disguise in hindsight. So, you're interested in me, though, that you, I want to unpack a couple things. There are one, you, probably the most important thing there is you have no background in fashion. What's the ever?

Right. So I want you guys to hear this. What he said about what Donnie Deutsch talked about, and I actually believe this as well, is a lot of times it's not to be nor it's solving a problem. Sometimes it's solving a problem. Sometimes it's something that already exists and just doing it better, right? So that was number one. Number two, I want you to hear the real stuff

of building an iconic life and brand. You gotta burn the boats. And so he ends up quitting going through the 401k. I think Aaron's 401k as well, right? Credit cards, the whole deal. And then you didn't even really take any salary for the first few years, probably like most entrepreneurs, did you?

First four or five years? First four or five years. You just paid your bills and rolled on. It was a long time. Really long time. When you started, because I want to go back into like, how does this thing all come together? I had this quote I was listening to you say,

it's someone else's quote, but you used it. I want everyone to hear this. You said in times of change, experience can be your worst enemy. And someone else's quote, but it's one that you kind of adhered to. In times of change, experience can be your worst enemy. This is really important for a lot of you out there that have a lack of experience and you think,

I'm not equipped or prepared to start a business. I can't compete against these bigger brands. They know more than I know. You're saying conventional wisdom, especially in this day and age with technology in the way the world's changing, can actually be a detriment to bigger brands or people that think they're smarter with a lot of experience. 100%, I think it was Winston Churchill who had that quote, but we didn't know what we

didn't know. We didn't have the right network, didn't have the connections, and we just figured it out along the way. And I'm the type of person, real curious, I ask a lot of questions. And we went to the Garma District and downtown Los Angeles, bought some fabric at a fabric store, took a two-odd dry cleaners in San Diego with a sketch I drew with my second grade art skills,

like a stickman sketch. And I said, can you make two shirts? And the first shirts didn't even have ribbing. We had to go to a Joanne's down the street and it had Donald Duck repeat cartoon characters around it, wearing it under a suit and tie and I just it's a hundred bucks. I wanted to see if the idea worked five hours of my time to come up to LA and go back and it worked and I was like I'm gonna send this out to

friends of mine that will give me the feedback and the type of friends it would say Tom this is amazing idea or dude what do you, what does this say? And they all call back a week later and they said if you make more, I'll buy them from you. So came back up to Chinatown and Los Angeles found someone to make 200 shirts and they do have your markers and you're grading. I might have a marker in my car, but grading is the size ratio from small, medium, large, extra large. So I learned on the fly and just figured it out, came back, built a two page PayPal website.

So I think there's a lot of people that are really great running businesses on PowerPoint in our end theory, but there's a difference between like, really running and operating and playing in the business. And I think I learned, I'm more of a hands-on learner. I'm a visual learner versus reading, having something taught to me, I have to do it,

I have to do the action. And I think not having those connections was a big advantage for us because we didn't have a way. There wasn't a formula, we really invented our own. Do you think your sales background helped you though? As far as... Yeah, I don't know, marketing, going into, I read something where you would go into stores

and actually teach them how to, I have to think, I think a lot of things in life is sales and the ability to communicate. I'm just wondering if you look back now, you're a person of faith, I'm a person of faith, and you go, is this just part of the plan? But I took the steps in the road, but like, had you never been in sales,

never done any of that? I'm just curious, by the way, if the answer's no, it's fine, but do you think Tommy John would exist if you didn't have some sales background? No, and so think of Will Smith and the pursuit of happiness selling bone scanners. I'm selling pulse oxymeters, training nurses and doctors, on how to apply these sensors on your finger, ear, nose,

forehead, and ICUs and no wires. So I'm training them to sell a medical device with conceptual selling back by scientific studies. So now I'm selling underwear and undershirts and department stores, training sales people on the floor. So when we got launched into retail stores, it's one thing to sell it and pray and like, I hope it sells, I hope it sells. But like there's a sell-in, but there's a sell-through. And the sell-through for us was traveling to the stores,

doing the morning rallies, training the entire store. I'm Tom Patterson, my company's Tommy John, this is why we exist, this is the problems we solve. And then spending time with them on the floor, talking to customers, having them go in the dressing room. And it was like a master's degree in learning how to position my product to scale and sell because I went to 90 stores in a year and a half.

So, but I was immersed in it, in my selling background, how to position it, how to pitch it, how to close the sale, calling other buyers. And, but there was this, I always, I think, had this gun down my head with this urgency to go faster and to grow so I've talked I've heard you talk about like Patiently impatient. Yeah, what does that mean? I Think you know, I'm a patient person, but I think a lot of times things wouldn't happen if you weren't impatient

Yeah, I agree with that and patiently impatient the team can be patient, but if you weren't impatient. Yeah, I agree with that. And patiently and patiently, the team can be patient, but if you aren't driving, I think it's by nature people don't want to make mistakes, so they veer towards it being perfect. I'll jump off the cliff and build the plane on the way down, like a lot of the people that you have on the show, but I'll always land. I'll probably get some cuts, maybe I'll break my arm,

but I land maybe five hours before everybody else on the head. Dude, I think what you're saying right now is like so profound. See, there's things that people that have become successful do naturally that you do very, very well, right? But that isn't natural for most people. And this notion that, like I always say,

I don't even believe in all the time that one decision is gonna work and one's not. I actually often times go, I'll probably make them both work. Even if I'm wrong, even if the other one was the smarter one now, I'll just, like you just said, I'll land it, like I'll make them both work. So you know what, I'll just call the shot. Like a lot of times in life, it's people's hesitancy.

You just call the damn shot, go and have some faith and or confidence that you'll make either one work. And that's what I've seen you do. And I admire that tremendously. Now one thing that I do notice in you that I have in me, and I really like, I want you to speak to this. You have a great deal of humility. When you meet you in person,

you're very humble for a man who's accomplished so much in his life. And I think, and this is the after guy that I meet. I watch people closely, like that dinner that we went to together that night, like I like, I'm kind of socializing, but I really size people up and study them. And you know, you would have been sort of,

I've been heard about you over the years from different friends of ours, but I watch you even today, even right when you walked in here today. Both you and Aaron have a high degree of humility and that's after success. So if I go back and I think, okay, it's 2008, I bet that humility existed then too.

But I wonder if when you were starting, because humility usually, sometimes can be connected to lack of confidence. Their brother and sister sometimes. Did you have like this traditional imposter syndrome, like what am I doing? This isn't going to work. Did you have like this traditional and Poster syndrome, like what am I doing, this isn't going to work? Did you have it then?

How did it affect you like during bad times? Like I knew I couldn't do this. And even do you have it now at this huge stage where you built this massive brand? Yeah, I think like you, for me, it was developed through sports. I played three sports in high school, small tons out the Coda.

And I think when you get used to failing, you create this resilience, right? And my grandpa always said, you know, when I be down about failing, he's like, Tommy builds character, right? Character is built through resilience. That coach is pushing me, pushing, pushing me, you know, if you get pushed, you exceed where you think you can go, which increases your capacity to grow. So for me, character was really built through sports and resilience. And I think when you push through,

and you start to have success, for me, there's, there's a level of being grateful for where you've come from. And like what you've done, because everybody has their story and the challenges, but at the moment, you don't think like, we're in this 500 square foot apartment,

or offices in our bedroom, you're just focused on where you want to go. But I think when you get there, like you don't forget, like just driving here today in West Hollywood, I was thinking about all the time I spent on the 10 and the 110 going to our underwear factory in Compton or undershirt factory in Chinatown and then on the way back to our apartment in West LA, calling Neema Market Stores I wasn't in to see if they had the product. And then the buyer would call three days later so hey Tom, we're getting calls from other markets.

Can you guys put us in more stores? So I think being effective with the time, but for me it was, I think Ed, it comes back to the sports part and just being a competitor in those disciplines that you develop by being part of a team and being pushed beyond where you think you can go, which increases your capacity to grow. But the last thing I'll say is I really continue to put myself on rooms where I'm intimidated. Right? Like John talks about John Gordon, Iron, Sharpen's Iron, I feel really dull going into rooms. I love being in those rooms too.

And there's just something about the energy and what you can learn and being around people that are just doing exciting things, but there I think there's a common thread, like a common cloth that everybody has been cut from. I think one of the common threads you nailed is competition. It's one of the things that's like not in most of the textbooks.

If you go to get an MBA or you go to business school, or even in conversations even on my show, I'm surprised by how few people bring up competition and being competitive. I think it's one of those factors that's invisible that if you cut someone open that's really one in life, they have a competitive streak in them. And sometimes being competitive helps to extract you from how crappy your current situation is now. Like if you're just

competing day to day to get more shirt sold, more stores you're in, more distribution, that competitive thing going on, you kind of forget, wow, we're broke right now. And I think that's a major driver. It is for me too. I'm a competitive dude. I, this podcast, I know how many downloads it gets every single day, right? I, I want to compete. I want to be the best. I want things to do well. Having said that, almost quit a bunch of times too. And I'm curious for you, was there a moment where you started to raise your hands and surrender or did you never have a quitting moment in your career? I wouldn't say there's ever been a moment where we thought this is it. There's no way out.

I've always felt there's always a way, right? And I think a lot of ways, like the story of Tommy John, we've been like this Rumba vacuum, right? We just hit the corner, we bounce off and figure out the other way forward. And I think it comes back to that resilience that you were talking about. But I remember back in 2013, we had an investor that said, hey, the company's not growing as quickly as we want. You guys should really think about selling the company. Make a few million bucks, move on to something else.

And it just like, I felt like I was sick to my stomach. It just something did not sit right with that comment. And this is, and I was like, really? And I thought about it for a minute. Should we sell it and be out? And then three months later, it was our lightning in the bottle moment. Howard Stern talked about her underwear,

how it changed his life. You can imagine a day without Tommy John. But I think a lot of times entrepreneurs are at that point, and they're right about to break through. And someone gets in their ear or you were talking about yesterday, discourages them. And who is that speaking to them? I think your gut and your intuition has got speaking to you. And the longer you're in business, that gut bacteria gets stronger where you read the signs. And I think had that happen two or three years earlier, we might not have.

Yeah. By the way, can I just say something on that? That's one of the smartest things I've ever sent on the show. And the other thing you just said, because you say a lot of things brilliantly in little sentences. So I want to make sure I want to acknowledge something

you just said. There are millions of people who were one or two steps away for becoming millionaires that never got there in their life because they quit that one or two steps away from becoming millionaires that never got there in their life because they quit that one or two steps away. It's incredible. You know, one of the things someone asked me one time is, what do all of the very successful entrepreneurs of the entrepreneurs you've had on your show have in common? I said, well, they're all very different, but one thing they actually have in common is

they seem obvious. They didn't quit. So many people quit one or two steps away because it feels so far away. And I always say that people don't lack vision, they lack depth perception. They think they're further away than they are. And so it's easy to quit if it's far away. But the truth is, usually if you've worked really hard,

you're one or two steps away before you quit. I totally agree with you on that, man. Yeah. Really, really good. Let me ask you this. Couple very specific things about business. Sure. I think Tommy John has easily the best marketing

of any company that sponsors my show. I don't mean that. I mean, thank you. And even overall before you guys did, just the nature of the ads, there's a little humor to them. In business, obviously the product has to be incredible. So you don't have to pick necessarily,

but how important is marketing, sales, branding, compared to the product, and how do you nuance those two things? And which has been more important to you in building Tommy John? Great question. I think it's different for everybody. I'll just speak from our experience. I think back in 2008, when we launched,

underwear was this really sleepy category. It was afterthought versus a considered purchase. The advertisements were, I thought, weird, unrelatable, you know, and very serious. Yeah. And I was like, well, we won't be Zoolander, but we'll take a more comedic approach to it. That was your idea. Yeah. Right. And I was like, well, we won't be Zoolander, but we'll take a more comedic approach to it. That was your idea.

Yeah. It was my idea. And I was like, my underwear right up. And then I started saying, Tom, when your underwear doesn't write up, I don't get a wedgie. Like, why don't you just say, yep, you have no wedgie guarantee. So we had these fun, humorous things

that would really speak to men in ways they thought, versus maybe the ways they verbalized. So when we launched, we thought, all right, we have this problem solving product, the first undershirt that stays tucked in. We had it getting a patent on our undershirt, which is very difficult in the fashion industry, underwear that doesn't write up, a waistband that doesn't roll down. So we had these problem solving features and benefits that really led to men being more comfortable, not adjusting themselves in inappropriate ways, and then the marketing really

followed through. But what we didn't have at is we had the, I think, the best product in the market, but we couldn't market it. We didn't have a platform to really, we didn't know about creating a brand. And I think today a lot of entrepreneurs have a great business plan. They find a category to disrupt, bring in the right people, raise money, and they're like, oh wait, we need to make a product. And I think the product is good, it's not great. And I think the brands that really create these game-changing products have an advantage. For us, it was solving a problem that men and women didn't know they had until they tried on our product. But as we've grown, I think we've been able to create this, I think Jesse had sort of talked about it, takes eight years to really build a brand. And it took us, what, seven or

eight years to build a brand. And brands aren't built overnight. And I think there's that in patients, patients, you have to have to build a brand that stays. But for us, the product is really, we say the BL and end all. You're only good as your last worrying experience at Tommy John. And I think the customer is getting smarter today, where they've bought products to have great marketing, great branding. The product just like, yeah. So.

What about the way you scaled? So I think there's another brilliant thing you did. Everyone listen close if you're an entrepreneur. And by the way, in about a minute, we're gonna move off entrepreneur onto life if you're not an entrepreneur. But one thing you did that I've done in my businesses is you scaled one product as I understand it really at a time

rather than trying to throw 18 things at the market. You got great at one thing first and then began to layer that. This is the stuff you don't get on other podcasts you guys about how to really build your company. I believe, and you tell me what you think, you have to have an anchor product first that gives you market credibility, market reputation, validation. They're the best at this. Then you can layer in some other stuff. So speak to that, if you agree with it and how you did it and was it intentional.

Yeah, I would say it was not intentional. I say it was faith and financial challenges that we had where we couldn't do too much. And I think when you raise a lot of money, you can spend a lot of money to grow faster, but it's different when you're spending your own money. And we've been profitable every year in business. We had to sell a dollar for more than a dollar.

We couldn't sell dollars for 35 cents to build a top-line number. But for us, it was undershirts. Well, guys that were undershirts, were underwear. 65% of them were undershirts. Hopefully, 99% of men were underwear. And there's a few that don't. But underwear was a much bigger category for us. So whenever we look at a category,

we're like, how do we stand out? How do we be different? What are the pain points? How can we tell a story in a different way that resonates that's on brand for us? So it's more so seeing the people zicking, the brand's zicking, and like, all right, we're gonna zag. There's a window, there's an opening in that door.

We're gonna go and open it up. And I think for us, that platform was an outdated channel, which is radio. No one had really marketed underwear and undershirts through your ears versus your eyes looking at packaging and store or billboard and time squares. We were able to speak to the customer

in ways that were relatable when they're on their commute, when they're driving, and have it stand out in funny, relatable ways. So I think what works for us doesn't work for other brands. And you have to find what fits for you, but you have to be comfortable failing and getting back up and trying. And it's like just throwing mud

until something sticks, but when it sticks, you know. There's your formula, run it, run the play, right? You, by the way, I told you guys would be a business master class. We've done 30 minutes now and it's more information than you'll get on 100 different classes and college on business. So or anywhere else you go. Let me ask you some stuff about being worth it. Would you do me a favor and describe what your life looked like in the throws of building it, what the sacrifice looked like? And then I really want you to tell me the truth about this because you're on the other side to some extent now. You're very wealthy man

Was it worth that? Was it worth what you did? What did you have to do sacrifice? What does it really look like to build a business as an entrepreneur and After you tell me what that was like Was it worth it? Yeah No one's ever asked me this question. I think for me when we started as I wanted to find something where I could be passionate about what I was doing where I woke up every day excited energized I feel like we're making an impact and and If someone someone was gonna change or disrupt the underwear category

Might as well be me if it's not me. It's gonna be someone else It's not me and Aaron, someone's gonna take that. And for me, it was getting into a place of financial freedom, the ability to have my own schedule. And I kind of looked at people that I admired and asked, how did you get here? What did you do? I was always been very curious about entrepreneurs.

I'm obviously upset that you didn't have your radio show back in 2007, because I think I'd be further than I am today. I think you're right, but I think for us, you don't really, for us, I'll speak for me, I didn't really look at it as a struggle at the time. I just felt that this is what entrepreneurs go through. And I think for everybody listening of GPA equal success in life,

I would not be successful on paper. For us, it was, I think, just wanting more out of life, but I think with that, there came a lot of sacrifices. Family, friends, weddings missed. There's just places you can't go. And there's this quote, I don't remember who wrote it, and I'm sure you've heard of this. Like, most people aren't willing to give up a couple of years of their life to live a life that most people can't.

And it was on our refrigerator. Every one time to get tough, I'd always look at that and it took a lot more than two years to get there. But I think I don't know anybody that has had to sacrifice nothing to get to where they are. But I think now when you have kids in a family you look at the sacrifices differently. I think for me it would have been more difficult had we had young kids those first six years. And I was traveling 150,000

miles a year at all over the world to factories building factory relationships. I was either on a plane in stores or in our office. And you just say no a lot. Right. Almost like a two-year-old. No, don't can't go there. I in our office. And you just say no a lot, right? Almost like a two year old. No, don't, can't go there. I'd love to. And the things you turn down are like, man, I can't believe I'm saying no to these things.

But I knew, I just didn't want it to get in the way of where we want it to go. We're these six, seven day weeks, all the time. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we didn't keep track of hours, you know. You work. Isn't that funny, by the way, when an entrepreneur tells you

that I'm like, you're not a real entrepreneur. I have, I don't know when, the blur when I was building my businesses between when I was working and when I wasn't, I don't even know how to make that distinction, I was just working. I was on, if I wasn't doing it, I was thinking about it constantly. Like, my first thought when I woke up in the morning

was something involving that, typically, was it for you too? Oh, the motor never turned off. Right. But I think a blessing in disguise is, you know, we were told, don't work with your wife. It will never work out. And it's been such an amazing experience

to be with my wife really since day one, more so after the first year, to build this business together. And for us, it's been balancing the conversations. All right, let's just not talk about work for an hour. So we can need dinner or do something. But by the way, that's my next question. If you want to keep going there, because you have built this with Aaron.

And a lot of people do ask me that, hey, when do you draw a line? Because a lot of times, like you said, your office was in your house. So a lot of times they're working in the same location where they dinner, where they do things, married people do together at night. Where, like, is there, was that stressful? And did you guys have any, like, hard, fast rules about, like, after eight o'clock,

or when we're laying in bed, or anything like that, where you, like, had a relationship outside of business? For sure. I mean, there's flexibility, and I think the Gold Post and rules kind of change as time goes on. But this is the visual 500-square-foot apartment in New York City, Tommy John World headquarters. We're a $3 million business. We've got 110 pound Bernie's Mountain Dog Marley in there.

Manicans, a pulled out couch that people could sleep on. And then when we have meetings in there, investors will come, our marketing, packaging, our closet, one bathroom, and then we have our marriage and us together too. And then so everything happened in this 500 square foot space. And then we eventually got an office and a bigger office. So for us, I think it's always been that, so we don't know anything different. So we've had to figure out ways to work through So for us, but I think it's always been that, so we don't know anything different.

So we've had to figure out ways to work through and manage and balance that works for us. But a lot of times, like, hey, it's Friday. Let's just two hours. Good. Not talk about anything work related. And I think I was the one that would have a hard time turning off. Yeah, right. And then Aaron would have a hard time turning off, going through a season of that.

But now, I think 15 years in, I can't say we have a blueprint that works for everybody, like a one size fits all, but we found a balance that works for us. And probably you had to have had that too. Yeah, I think a lot of times post, especially if you're getting interviewed like you and I are, that you kind of make it sound like you were more organized about it than you really were. And so I think that was the honest answer. We didn't have these unbelievably hard and fast rules. It was like, actually, I'm doing a bad job with this right now.

Let me fix this for a while. And then what do you have fixed? I think life works like that. When you're on podcasts or you're on social media, it's like, let me give you my five rules to do it. Well, you didn't really live like that. It's like in hindsight, you went these five things kind of worked. That's how life works, right? Like entrepreneurship, forget entrepreneurship. Life in general is like this messy moving thing

that you're navigating all the time. Don't you agree? Yeah, I'm not the most organized person, right? There's people that are way more organized, but there was no weekly Sunday at seven o'clock. Let's go through. There was too much going on, but we weren't. But yeah, to your point. One of the things that you have though done now, I want to ask you about this, if you don't mind talking about it, we were talking about it before you, we went live. It's faith. Yeah. And one of the things faith's done for me is it has kind of given me like some type of an

anchor of like, well, at this time, I kind of do this, or I'm going to listen to a sermon at this time or kind of do this or I'm going to listen to a sermon at this time or whatever it is. It just gave ironically a rhinoic thing to say, but actually there's lots of things faith can give you in your life. But the irony is one of them for me was some structure. There was some structure like I now pray, I now read some scriptures, I now go to church like I now read some scriptures, I now go to church. Like, I gave a structure to my completely unstructured, crazy entrepreneurial life to some extent. So you're kind of getting deeper and deeper in your faith, you and Aaron are,

but I'm wondering what role that plays for you now and what's it done for you? Yeah, gosh. I think we, you know, we were talking about, we had a similar maybe experience and how we were Christian-ish, but I think it's reached a different level. And I think for us, you know, if we were to go back and look at our business each year over the 15 years, what were those moments where faith got us through, but we didn't even

know it or see it or realize it? You know, these angels protecting us, mentors that came into our life at the right time, reading that article about to start a company than during a recession. Like, I think when you have a belief in a higher power, there's coincidences kind of gets out of your vocabulary, right? It's God working. And now I think it really, during those tough times, having a faith for us, it really fills the gaps and helps you get through.

And I think for me, the structure of going to church, seeing some of the most dynamic speakers that I learned the most from and I'm typing on my phone or oftentimes pastors. And I think anybody that's in the faith world today and entrepreneur, I think, has that common thread. So for me, it's been just something where I've spent a lot more time built more structure around my faith. And it's just, it's changed so much, I think of the way I lead, how we lead not only our business, but our family and ourselves,

you know, serving versus just working without a purpose. So they have that purpose now, something something if any entrepreneur that's younger, I wish someone would have spoke to me 10, 15 years ago and really drilled that into my head harder because there were people around me, but I think there was just this big movement now in the faith world where you're finding more entrepreneurs and people at your level being more open about and I think it's great. So do I. I'm proud of you for doing that. And I can see your faith on you. My guess is to find you, then you're always this really kind guy. But sometimes where you begin to know where those things come from, it just becomes magnified.

And I can see it magnified on you and on Aaron. I'm really, really impressed and proud of you. I mean that. I'm really impressed and proud of you it. I knew when we met we're going to be friends a long time. We're going to get to know each other very well. I just say one thing. Yeah. You'll probably like the story. So when I was five years old, my parents were funeral directors and I was riding in a horse next to a religious person and I was swearing and drawing on her and every week my parents would run into them and said, how's Tommy? I was like four or five years old. He's good. We've been praying for him.

I had these group of Christian women praying for me. I was four or five years old. That was a pretty bad kid for a period of time. And I've always felt there's been different people that say that to me along the way, hey, I've been praying for you about what? And they'll tell me. And I do think that there is a power within a prayer, whatever your belief is, whatever you believe in.

And I think at moments where times are tough, then people pray. Let's pray now. But I think there's something about constantly praying that you've seen this. You do this for people, people that we know do this for others. There's just something about it that I think resonates and it sends out this vibration, that people aren't aware of. And I think for me, that's just, that's been one of the really cool things about, I think, the last two, three years for us.

That's one of the coolest things I've ever heard. What you just said, right there, everybody should rewind that last two minutes. That's one of the coolest things I've ever heard, the way you just said right there. Everybody should rewind that last two minutes. That's one of the coolest things I've ever heard the way you just said that. So if you have a kid swearing or drawing on people, there's hope. They talk to me. Get some good folk praying for them as quickly as you can. Okay, I couple more things I want to ask you because I'm just fascinated by your story. You're on the other side now.

You know, you built this big old thing. Do you feel like you're on the other side? And if you do a little bit, it's okay, by the way, too. Like not have humility all the time. What does it feel like when your dream and vision, you're sort of stepping into it and almost walking in the life you had dreamed about it one time. Because there's millions of people listening to this or watching this brother of the like,

I got a dream. I'm in that grind. I'm in that thing where I feel like an imposter. I'm in that deal, man, where like it's not quite clicking yet and people are telling me I should get out or sell it or whatever. And then I know what it feels like at some point to like, oh my gosh, I'm actually kind of living this thing now that I had It didn't feel like it completely, but I had some of it. What do you feel like you're doing that now?

And what does it feel like if you if you are doing that? I think for for me, you know, there's a period of time where you're you're all fighting in water There's a lot of blood in water in the water a lot of competition It's like how do you get from that red water to the blue water? And for us, I do think there's some separation we've created in our space, some breathing room. But part of me, I think I get uncomfortable when I get too comfortable. And we always talk about, you know, how do you get comfortable being uncomfortable? And I think a lot of people reach a certain level of success and they start coasting. And after you've grinded it for a really long time, I get it.

But there's also something about, I think, constantly having that growth mindset, the curiosity, learning, and having that going back to, I think, the rookie mindset. And that's why I like being around people like like a John Gordon a Kobe Bryant They're always bringing sports analogies and for me playing sports. It just resonates deeper But when I think about those times maybe where our business is kind of like slowed We got comfortable and how do you keep that momentum going as you grow? I don't but I don't know if I would ever say like I've made it. I always feel like.

You're way to the go away. Go away. Yeah, you lose it all. You worry about that. Do you live with that fear? I mean, we really have to, you might have to commit me somewhere if that were to happen, if it happened, but. I can tell you look on your face.

Yeah. You don't worry about that. No, I think, you know, God has a plan for me and our business, but 15 years, four percent of companies make it 10 years or greater, all right? So we're less than the four percent now. I think we'd really have to make a pretty fatal move to do that.

You know what I wanna tell you something? I know why I like you. I just figured it out, watching you. This is the biggest compliment I could probably give you. You remind me of my son. Makes me, I'm not gonna say anymore of that because I'll start crying. But like, that's my favorite dude in the world.

And you remind me of my son. Got to meet him. Yeah. No, you will. I want him to meet you. And I think you'd be an incredible mentor for him. You're personality, you're vibe, you're humility, but you're confident. You're fit, you're good looking, you're,

you got faith, you treat people well, you treat people kindly, you're very, very smart. You're this combination, bro. Like, it's not, most people everyone listening, it's not by mistake that they win. They acquire skills, they acquire thoughts, they expand on the good parts of their personality. There's just things about people that become successful, that there's a recipe in a formula.

They're different. But you've maxed out, and I'm not trying to use a pun, your talents, your giftedness, your positive personality traits. A lot of times in life in business, it's a matter of eliminating huge mistakes you could make knowing the parts of your personality that don't serve you and really playing to the strengths of the parts of you that do serve you. That's what I see in you. And I'm sitting there thinking, why do I like this guy so much when I met him? You remind me of my favorite guy, which is my son. And so I just want to tell you that. Thank you. Thank you. I'm open to being adopted if you need it.

I get a fortune. I get out of forward to you. I want to ask you a couple more things about this though. In building this business, you know, you had to give up a lot of different things as well. But if someone was to start right now and say, hey, I think I'm going to become an entrepreneur. This is sort of an open and a question.

I want to become an entrepreneur. But I'm not really totally sure where to start. The thing you said earlier in the interview about solve a problem, that type of thing. Do you think everybody is an entrepreneur or do you think that that's reserved for a certain type of person? That's a great debate. I mean, I think I have a different answer at five year periods. I think everybody has a million dollar idea. I think some people are struggling with a discomfort and the uncertainty.

And being entrepreneurs all about uncertainty. You have to be ready to move and pivot and change. And again, I'm gonna go back to sports. Like sports and being that Rumba vacuum and failing. And at his coach that said to me, Tom, you're never gonna increase your capacity to grow unless you fail. And if you don't fail,

you're gonna be an underachiever in life. So by not failing, you're not reaching your potential. And I think for me, I always got pushed and wanted to drive more and more and I think seeing entrepreneurs and seeing the type of family and the type of life that they were living, it was really inspiring for me. I wanted more. I wanted to do more. I wanted to travel more.

I wanted to be around different personalities. So for me, I think it's a question our entrepreneurs born or made. I think for me, it was probably born. I had long-moving businesses. Dude, I shoveled sidewalks and snowblood sidewalks before basketball practice in high school. I would knock on doors and ask to do the mowing for the summer.

So I always worked and I was always curious about making learning ways to make more money, but I would say for anybody here, I didn't have the perfect network. I didn't go to the perfect school. I didn't have the perfect connections. I didn't get the right internship. It was really people.

I've L.A. cars in Scottsdale when I went to college. I sold cell phones at a kiosk and this is fashion square mall and Phoenix, but those people skills and interacting and understanding how to read nonverbal cues, that EQ part I think really prepared me to be in a position to see the signs or opportunity to start a business. And I think that there was a preparation through my childhood and through things I was involved in that allowed me to see those signs. Yeah.

So, but I didn't grow up in an environment of entrepreneurs. My parents were not entrepreneurs and you say this, middle class, I would say we were middle class maybe at times lower or upper, but middle class is the hardest one to get out of if it is. And I often times wonder how did I get out or why did I get out? I don't know if I have the perfect answer. I don't know either in my case. I'm thinking about it.

I'm thinking of listening to you. You just said some more real brilliant stuff that I want to unpack there. But I think my dad wasn't an entrepreneur. I don't know any entrepreneurs in my family. My grandfather worked in a union. My grandfather was a printer. So what has this come from? I remember when I was a little boy,

I had ice-a-cell sodas at the golf course and candy bars through the fence. I had that little business and I was young. Then I had a baseball card business. Then I had an auto detailing business. So somehow as a little guy, I was experimenting with being an entrepreneur and wanting to make money and wanting to expand.

And then one thing I always had, I think you have to, I've always been fascinated with growth. And I think sports, to your point, sports gave me that competitive thing you talked about earlier. Sports gave me and you both the ability to deal with and accept failure. Almost like, of course, I'm going to strike out, I'm going to get out seven out of ten times. Of course, you're going to miss a jump shot, right?

You always miss something, right? Of course, I'm going to drop a pass or, 10 times. Of course, you're going to miss a jump shot, right? You always miss something, right? Of course, I'm going to drop a pass or, you know, so I think that helped. But you said something earlier, man, that I have never thought of before, which is this notion, I'll probably say it wrong, but to be successful,

you actually have to become comfortable being uncomfortable. But then you said the reverse and it describes me very well and you. I'm uncomfortable being comfortable now. I got all the way the other way. It wasn't my problem is not being comfortable being uncomfortable. My problem is I'm uncomfortable being comfortable or content. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think that it's like, man, I want that to be on some speech I give because that's a really profound thing that you just said right there and super describes me.

What was the, what's a hidden huge benefit? I ask hard stuff. What's a hidden huge benefit of making your dream come true? Most people wouldn't know about. Forget just the wealth or you could travel. I mean, he could live anywhere in the world, do lives in South Dakota. Like so he's not like, you know, so what's it, what's, no fences out Dakota, some of my really good friends are there. But it's not, I'm invited to you. You'll, there's parts you'll like. There are parts I'd like, but I'm not going there. I can tell you right now I will not be there in January,

but I will go there with you. But, but, and especially the golf place that you describe, we need to go do that. Having said that though, what's a little, give us all, you know, what's a little thing that happens and I'll give you mine after you give me years that you didn't think would be cool about making your dream come true that now is. I think, you know, there's, I'm still always surprised about how many people are aware of the brand. Right. It still blows my mind,

blows our mind that people are so familiar with it and wear it. And the types of people that we meet that are wearing it that have not met us, that didn't know our brand values or beliefs and just found the product. It's connected and it's just, it, one, it creates a lot of fun conversations, which we've had of just the underwear category by nature. But it's, it's got us in a lot of rooms that I would have only dreamt of being in. And it's one thing to get in the room, but it's another thing to stay in the room.

And I think there's Jim talked about this where we were. Like everybody in this room fought to get in this room, right? Jim Rome. Yeah, Jim Rome. There's this mutual respect for some of the rooms because a lot of people don't understand what it took or the sacrifices that were made to get in there. And it's like, man, it's not lonely. There's other people that have been here. Yes. Right. And I think when you're running a business is really lonely. There's not a plan. There's not a playbook. And for me, that's been one of the most exciting things to me. Honestly, like you, meeting your heroes, meeting people that have impacted you in so many ways,

and just not being awkward. My grandpa taught me he's like, treat everybody the same, whether it's the front desk receptionist, the janitor. They're all people at the end of the day. And I think for me, one of the gifts I've realized I have is I'm not intimidated by people, but I have a lot of respect for people.

And people are like, how is you get to this level that you're at? I'm like, I've never been scared to ask questions. I've never been scared to send Kevin Hart some product and talk to him on the phone. At the end of the day, there are real people that wanted to be treated just like anybody else. Right? Nothing makes you more uncomfortable than being treated like you're this fanning out.

And I think being around people and just getting to know them who they are behind closed doors, there's been I think one of the really cool, exciting things about building a business, but it wasn't the intent. That's just I think a side surprise benefit of it. By the way, I think you're right about that. And the thing is, I think what everybody I want everyone to hear, and the reason I ask

you the question is, there's lots of side benefits to use your term to making your dream come through that you can't imagine right now. And there will be lots of things. It'll be an experience or a moment. Or I think for me, it's all the stuff I didn't calculate as I was doing it, because I think when you have a dream, you kind of picture you in the dream. But for me, it was when I got to the other side of it and live it now. It's all the things I never dreamt of doing for other people or moments I could be there

for somebody when they need me that I didn't calculate that. And if you would have told me back then, the reason I want everyone to hear this is, if you would have told me back then that you'd be able to do this, that or the other thing for another person, I'd have worked even harder. I'd have taken more hits. I'd have gone through more pain. If I knew that the dream wasn't just about me, but it's about all these other people, these lives you can affect and you can impact in small and big ways. If I didn't know all that was going to come with the package you're winning. I'd have gone forward even harder and faster. I've gone bigger. I'd have done more.

So there's, I want everyone to know this. There's more that comes with making a dream come true. You can even possibly imagine. And as good as you think it's going to be in many ways, it's a thousand million times better, but maybe not even in the way, like having lots of money. It's cool, right? But it's probably, I don't think it's quite as cool

as I thought it was going to, not being broke It's cool, right? But it's probably, I don't think it's quite as cool as I thought it was gonna, not being broke is super cool, right? But being super rich, I don't, it's not quite as cool as I thought it would be, but other parts that come with it are for me. Is that the same for you? Yeah, I think once you've been poor and struggling, you want to do everything possible, not to be there again.

Yeah, right. But I think you brought up a good point at something I want to talk to you a lot more about after this is this success, the significance, transition that you've made, right? How do you made that earlier, right? I think as you go on, how do you make sure you're impacting others?

And I think they always say the people that you can use, probably say this, the people you can help the most are the ones who are walking through the path that you walk through. And I think if there's one person I can reach today or ten people, or you can send this to someone that has a story that resonates with what we're talking about, that's really what people want to hear. And I think anybody that's listening, that's the beauty about podcasts and YouTube today.

They're like these master classes and like blinkest cliff notes on the stories. Yes. And I think a lot of people get caught up, I read this one, I heard this one, I listened this one, but they're not taking any action. And the hardest part is people know what to do. The hardest part I think I keep seeing is just getting started. Yeah. Well, they did do that.

Like let's talk about that for a second. Because you're right. Like if I could figure that out, we'd have way more millionaires, way better marriages, way more parents raising wonderful kids, whatever it might be in life, way more people creating cures for diseases. What is that thing that got,

like you just started, like if we go all the way back to the beginning, I'm thinking to myself, this dude has no fashion background. He's walking around selling these medical devices. All of a sudden he wakes up and goes, I think we should have better undergarments, like what the, and then you go to the fashion district and I know where that place is,

that's not the most comfortable place to go. You make a couple freaking shirts with the Donald Duck thing on there and now you're sitting in my studio with a brand that everyone that's listening to my show has heard of before. Like, there's gotta be a part of this, like, on the spinning earth, your existence on 2008,

the dude you were flash forward 15 years later, whew, bam, like, it's gotta be unbelievable to you, but you did get started, right? Do you think it's because you were naive and you didn't know how hard it was going to be? What do you think it was that got you started that holds other people back? Is it they want to be perfect? Like, what is it? I just didn't want to play it safe. You know, I wanted to play it big and go bigger, go home. And for me, I wanted to take a big swing and see if I could do it, right? I like

getting out of my comfort zone and doing uncomfortable things. So I think when we started that was really the mindset Really to do it, but I don't know. I think everybody's different. I think I'll make it this uncertainty or how it's gonna be perceived Or I don't want to live a life in like downsize and go from two cars to one car But if you're not comparing yourself to the others, like the keeping up with the Jones's mentality, like I don't know anybody that's made it, that didn't struggle, that didn't go through the tough times.

And there are very, I think, more exceptions than aren't. So I think for us, that was really just the mindset that we had. I think there's something in you, bro, and I want to ask you this last. So I think you're, that was really just the mindset that we had. I think there's something in you, bro. And I want to ask you this last. So I think you're stepping into it. But I think a lot of people are unconsciously competent. So I think you do lots of stuff really well,

but because you and Aaron are both so humble, you don't even realize that it's a superpower. And I even did this day, this guy's worth a ton of cheddar. He's got this big old brand. I guarantee you having now known you a little bit. If I said, give me five things that you need to work on about you right now, you'd be like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. If I said, give me five superpowers you have, you'd be like, yeah, let me get back to you. Let me send you an email. 100%. Okay. And it's an interesting dynamic to you. But I'm

going to give you one on you. And I think it's maybe sports. And I want you to speak to this last. So everybody you learn this lesson from him, okay? I think that, well, I'll use my son as the example and I'll let you finish with answering it. So my son wants to become, he's going to play golf. And if that didn't work, my son will go become an entrepreneur and sales or whatever I've told me, I have to get a job first because you got to pay your bills. I'm not giving you the money to start a business. You need to start your own business. And one of the things he said, well, dad, what would make me success? I said, look, Max, you got all of it.

You got your growth, your kind, your good communicator of all those other things. I said, I don't even think it's maybe the most important thing. I said, let me tell you something. You better be able to deal with rejection. And this is something that has not talked about enough. I almost wish we talked about it earlier in the show. Your ability in life and in business to deal with rejection is a huge difference maker in your life. And I'm watching you.

There's a way about you that it appears to me as if you just sort of accepted from the beginning that was gonna be a part of this and it's like that's the price of doing business. So speak last to those listening, how important am I right by the way that dealing with rejection and how you frame it, feel about it and respond to it matters and did that make a big difference do you think for you in hindsight that I'm pointing out one of your superpowers? Yeah, I mean, I think there's this, you know, when you're rejected, for me,

there's naturally a chip on your shoulder, right? That underdog mentality, you wanna prove people wrong. And I had that mentality for a period of time, but then I started shifting it, and it was more, I think this is really important to prove people right. To prove people right, the ones that believed in you and no one else did. The Nima Marcus buyer, the Norse buyer that gave us that shot. Like you really appreciate those early ones who believe in you where most people don't.

And I think that really fueled us. But even now, like we have buyers calling us to carry their product and it's only, you said no, you wouldn't even return our email or phone calls. Like when I was emailing you, not the matters of the CEO's emailing you. So that's, I mean, it's great. And we'll certainly have those calls now, but things change, but I think for us,

if everything comes easy and you have like this really easy path to success. I think it's a bad thing. And I think there's a glad, like you don't have that strong stable infrastructure and foundation, and I think you have to build a foundation to grow. And a lot of times comes through hardship and failures,

you know, doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. And that's certainly been the case. But I mean, there's been so many times where I could have hung it up and quit or sold when that investor said we should sell it. But I think the brands that fight and get there, there's that appreciation once you get there and that gratefulness where you're it's humbling to be there. Finally, like it took longer than I thought, but you know, we're here. And then it, but you know, our disease is what's the next thing? Yeah. What's the next thing? I don't think that's it. I think it's a healthy disease, by the way. I think your heart's doing that right now.

What's the next beat? Your breath and lungs are doing that. What's the next breath I'm going to take? Yeah. And so I think that that's I just want you to know coming from someone is a little bit further down the road in age than you. I don't think that that's, I think it's unnatural to not know what's next or to ask what's next or to be curious about what's next. I think it's completely natural. I think what is unnatural is somebody walking around this earth who's not curious, who's not interested in the next thing because their internal body is, their heart's asking for the next beat, their lungs are looking for the next breath. And so I think it's completely natural to do it. And I'm really excited to see what is next

for you. Do you have any idea what it is? I don't, you know, I think we like where we are with our business. I'm just meeting a lot of really exciting people, I think, in the giving world that you talked about, that is really where a lot of my passion is in addition to the business. But I would say you know I've never had a very clear plan. I go in a direction and John Maxwell says this a lot of times answers in the action. And I totally believe that you've got to go and try and see and then you know the formula kind of molds as you go. I've never been the person's like this is exactly what I'm going to do. I don't get that clarity being spoken to me a lot of times but I think I like to speak to people to see how they've

framed or how they thought about certain decisions in their life at the time that they did it and kind of learn and kind of put my own formula and recipe for it. So I think, you know, whether we sell the business, whether we go public, I think that that's I'm not in charge of that, you know, we know who is and we'll just follow follow the plan. But I think for now we're just super excited, blessed to have the business be where we are. And you know, I want to continue, I think for me it's, you, I don't want it there to be a finish line where I stop learning. I stop growing and I atrophy. I think you always want to be learning and developing and building different muscles for me. I think it's just becoming continuing

to be well-rounded and areas and kind of taking on those weaknesses and focusing on parts that really, I think push and activate and I think with the goal of just continuing to find things I'm passionate about. I think for me, last thing I'll say is like I'm very conscious of things that take my energy and things that energize me today. Like very sensitive, I think more and more sensitive than I've ever been before. So I'm thinking through and working through that now, and a lot of things I do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. I'm hoping that kind of frames what's next,

but I would like to help other entrepreneurs, whether it's investing, advising, mentoring. I think there's, like you said, there's a lot of knowledge we have learned along the way, where I think we can help them avoid some of the, you know, the potholes that we wrote through. You did that today just so you know, what you just described you did that today for millions of people. There is, I want to say something to you. First off, thank you for today because I promised a masterclass in the beginning.

And although we didn't raise our voices a lot, we went point by point by point by point, with one of them, one of the great iconic entrepreneurs of our time. I'm really glad I got to share this time with you. There's a I want to say something to you. There's a lesson in everyone listening to you. There is a dignity and an elegance and a grace and a quietly confident humility about the way that you communicate and you express yourself. It's, it does not surprise me at all that you and Aaron have become this successful. It's obvious to me why. And I also think the effect you're not super rigid in your ideology or super rigid in what the outcome of the goal is, you've got this thing where you're super competitive. I want everyone to hear this because I'm describing traits. You're very, very competitive. You're incredibly excruciatingly hard working. Your goal oriented, but you're nimble and flexibleatingly hard working, you're goal-oriented, but you're

nimble and flexible to let things flow to you the way they need to, or flow you in a direction you're supposed to go. You're open and curious to learning and course correcting as you go. These are really profound lessons from an entrepreneur. So not only did I get ideas by picking your brain, the way in which you deliver thoughts and the way that you think is a master class in it Of itself so really thank you for today. Thank you man appreciate that. Yeah, this was this is this is so good This is awesome. Yeah, you guys I already know you're thinking I don't want you to share where you want to refine you Where do you want them to go you want them to go to Tommy John com forward slash Ed? I don't know if it's a bad I'm kidding. I'm back on Instagram. Okay. What are you on Instagram? I am Tom Patterson. I am Tom Patterson on Instagram.

Yep, I am Tom Patterson. It's up on the screen we've got here. Okay guys, go follow him. Go get the power of one more of my book. Make sure you're sharing the show. It's the number one fastest growing show in the world for a reason because I bring you people like this guy. And we don't have interviews.

We have conversations here, which is why we go deeper, I think than anywhere else on the planet and getting you information and inspiration. God bless y'all, max out! you