THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Deepak Chopra - Navigating Spirituality in the Age of AI

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

What if the rise of AI could actually enhance your spiritual journey rather than threaten it? Today, I have the immense honor of sitting down with one of the most profound thinkers of our time—a man whose work has shaped the way millions of people view spirituality and well-being, Dr. Deepak Chopra. In this episode, we tackle one of the most fascinating and timely topics in our modern age: *Navigating Spirituality in the Age of AI*. Dr. Chopra’s insights into the relationship between spirituality and artificial intelligence are unlike anything you've heard before. He argues that while many see AI as a threat to human experience, it could actually be an unprecedented opportunity to elevate consciousness and explore what it means to be truly human. And that’s where I come in —adding my perspective on how to practically integrate these ideas into your life, not just conceptually, but in a way that helps you GROW and EVOLVE. You’ll hear me share my thoughts on how technology impacts our self-awareness, and together, Deepak and I discuss the balance between embracing innovation and maintaining our spiritual integrity. In this episode, we cover: The "Miracle Machine" of AI: Deepak explains why he believes AI holds the potential to enhance human consciousness and spiritual connection. Spiritual IQ: We dive into the concept of "spiritual IQ" and how you can measure and improve your own spiritual intelligence. The Role of Technology in Awareness: I bring up the challenges I see with technology and self-awareness today, and Deepak shares his insights on how we can reclaim our attention in this AI-driven world. Patterns and Stories: We discuss how we all become a series of patterns and stories, and the role spirituality plays in breaking free of those limiting narratives. Daily Practices for Self-Awareness: Learn actionable steps to increase self-awareness and create a spiritual experience, despite the distractions of modern technology. We’re not just covering philosophy here; this is a hands-on, practical guide to navigating the spiritual terrain in the era of artificial intelligence. Explore the wisdom of ancient practices, and how you can apply that wisdom to your everyday life. This episode is an absolute MUST-LISTEN for anyone interested in the intersection of spirituality, technology, and personal growth. If you’ve ever wondered how AI fits into your spiritual journey, this conversation will blow your mind. Get ready to elevate your thinking, expand your consciousness! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So hey guys, listen, we're all trying to get more productive and the question is, how do you find a way to get an edge? I'm a big believer that if you're getting mentoring or you're in an environment that causes growth, a growth based environment, that you're much more likely to grow and you're going to grow faster. And that's why I love Growth Day. Growth Day is an app that my friend Brendan Burchard has created that I'm a big fan of. Write this down, growthday.com forward slash ed. So if you want to be more productive, by the way the way he's asked me I post videos in there every single Monday that gets your day off to the right start he's got about five thousand ten thousand dollars worth of courses that are in there that come with the app also some of the top influencers in the world are all posting content and they're

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Join for just $4.99 a month. Savings may vary. El vary eligibility and member terms apply This is the Welcome back to the show everybody so so excited. This is one of my favorite people I've ever had on the show You know, we've had 800 episodes We've had about everybody on the world you would want to have on and I enjoyed my conversation last time with this man so much. I look forward to it and exceeded my expectations. He's, I guess I'd say he's a hero of mine. He truly is. He's a force for good in the world and has been for a long time. It's impossible to introduce him adequately. This

man's written 90 books, you know, he's influenced millions of people around the globe. I guess I'd say he's sort of this guy that merges like spirituality and modern science for like holistic wellness and health, and it's just a force for good. He's transformed millions of lives, including mine, and I cannot wait to pick his brain today about his new book, because it it's I read the entire book in one setting today and yeah one setting it's called digital Dharma how AI can elevate spiritual intelligence and personal well-being so we're gonna talk AI but this book is almost like a handbook for Dharma is what I would call it far beyond just AI so Deepak Chopra, welcome back, my friend. Thank you. That's very kind of you. Thank you.

Let's, uh, let's start with some basic terminology first. Is Dharma does that is the real meaning of Dharma? Cause you, you actually give these AI versions of it in the book actually, but is Dharma just like your best life? Yeah, it's your best life. Very well, but, and also how you fit in the total order of the universe. If you do. Okay. So Dharma is originally defined in the Buddhist tradition. And you summarize it your best life possible. And I'm going to see that from you. But it's a rewording of the original meaning, freedom from suffering. So freedom from suffering

is the ultimate dharma, not only for yourself, but if you're bodhisattva and for other people, you dedicate your life to freedom of suffering for yourself, but for everyone else. Okay, so we've laid a foundation there. So AI, this to begin with, you paint, I would call it beyond a rosy picture. You actually call it the miracle machine in the book. Whereas I've had Moe Godet on, you know, who was the chief technology officer at Google, that other people on there sort of paint a more, I guess I'd call it scary picture of what AI could do to humanity. So I was actually relieved to see somebody I look up to and I admire say, no, no, no, this could actually be something that enhances consciousness and the spiritual walk in our lives. So I'll kind of just let you start

with that first. Why do you feel that way? Yeah, actually, I was recently in, in Khan, and I was in the same room as Elon Musk, and he was speaking before me, and I was in the same room as Elon Musk and he was speaking before me and he was painting the dark side of AI. He didn't stay up for my talk obviously which was immediately following his where I pointed the other side, the light side of AI. So to answer your question Ed, technology is neutral, you know, and every time a technology

comes there is the naysayers and then there are the optimists and you know, they're both right. You can use technology for diabolical purposes or you can use technology to create a more peaceful, just sustainable,, and joyful world, which was my conversation with Sam Altman, who is the CEO of OpenCI. He is on my side of the argument. And while, you know, I've been on many panels

discussing the dark side of AI, including some government panels, and on Zoom, like you and I are. And while they're discussing all the problems that AI could create, I have been going on AI while the conversation is going on, and go to chair activity, how can we prevent this? How can we prevent this? So AI already has the knowledge how to prevent the diabolical aspects. We just need the collective will to make that happen. Now, will that happen? I don't know. You know, first time I came to the United States, I hadn't seen a television set. And,

you know, it was shocking to me that you could see people on the screen in color. Okay. Then came fax machines, then came the internet and every time there was a new technology introduced and I remember when the, you know, the first email came, you know, first time we knew of email, I took a computer and I took it home to my father in India, who was a very sophisticated person, brought up in England, professional cardiologist at one time, physician to the queen. I showed him how to use the computer or the email. So then I returned to the United States and I get a letter in the mail. He had actually typed out a whole email,

put it in the mail, sent it to me, where it said this email thing is absolutely great. But he didn't get it, okay. But the whole purpose of email was. So, you know, I'm sure when fire was invented, people had misgivings about it. I'm sure with all the technologies that have ever come through,

there are risks, whether it's automobiles or jet planes or interstellar travel or whatever. And either we adapt or according to Darwinian principles, we become extinct. I mean, the point is once something is born, it cannot return to the womb. Once you learn how to speak or write in English, you can't unlearn it.

Once the technology comes, and I believe technology is part of the evolution of a species, that's how we differentiated from all other species. We started with making tools, and then we kept improving the technology. That's what technology means, ultimately, tools, you know. And because we had an opposable thumb, we started to make tools and then it kept progressing. There's no going back. Either we use it for a more divine purpose or, you know, we don't adapt. We don't, we become irrelevant. You know, it's interesting, everybody. I want you to read the book because something just happened to me when he said that.

Just tell you, my arms got a little goosey's there. I got a little peace about this when you just said it that way. I want to tell you what you said that hit me. You talked about the fact that, I mean everyone knows what he just said, but I wanted to give you guys the part that affected me that everyone needs to realize this. That is what differentiates us as a species. It's this evolution of tools and equipment and technology and we've found our way to be okay and this is a huge revolution but at the same time that for some reason if you read the book and you hear what he just said it will give you this level of peace. The book by the way

everybody I think is almost two books. There's the AI element of the book but there's also kind of the handbook for better living I guess guess I would call it, or higher consciousness woven together in the book. Use a term in there that I've, I should have heard before because I'm 53 years old and I've read about everything, but this idea, this notion, I'd like you to talk about with everybody of spiritual IQ, which is different than just, you know, our intellect level, but having a spiritual IQ and everybody when when Deepak talks about this, just ask yourself about where you feel you are in terms of your spiritual IQ journey, because this is really powerful right here. Yeah. So, you know, first we have to define what spirit is. So spirit is synonymous with consciousness, synonymous with awareness, synonymous with what I believe is fundamental reality because without consciousness, there's no experience. So if you want to define consciousness, which is another word for spirit, by the way, it

is that in which all experience occurs, is that in which all experience is known and it is that out of which all experience is made. Now that's a little thing, little difficult for people to realize because they think experience happens in the brain or experience happens in the mind or experience has location somewhere in this body. So if I ask your audience, you know, where is this experience happening? This one that you and I are having, you know, they're seeing us, they're listening to us, they're thinking about it and they're hearing sounds, they're seeing images, they're seeing forms, there's being the liquor

bar behind you, they're seeing the bookshelf behind me. Where is this happening? And a lot of people will say seeing is happening in the eyes. Seeing is happening in the eyes. Well no, your eyes are 9.5 centimeters apart. Your retina is curved. by the time light enters your eyes, it crosses over and then if there's an image in your eyes, you should be seeing two of me upside down, nine centimeters apart and 2.5 centimeters by 2.5 centimeters. So this experience of seeing is not happening in your eyes. They said then you ask neuroscientists, where is it happening? They'll point here.

They'll say it's happening in the occipital cortex. Well, if I look at the occipital cortex, there's no picture of Ed out there. There's no picture of me. There's no picture of the alcohol behind you. There's no picture of the book. So where are those pictures? This is called the heart problem of consciousness in today's science, because there's no picture in the brain, there's no sound in the brain, there is no experience in the brain period, all that is electrochemistry. And this is called the heart problem. You know, we see the neural correlates of experience. They're called NCEs, the neural correlates,

which are electrochemical activities, NCEs. But where is the experience actually happening? And the only answer is in consciousness. Okay, then the next thing is, where is this consciousness for all this experience happening? I can't see it. Well, the car you can't see it because it is what is doing the scene. You know, I tell you Ed, look there, look

there, listen to me. So who is that which responds that so look there, look that what is the source of volition and where is the experience of sound, taste, smell, sensation, images, feelings, thoughts, imagination, visualization, insight, intuition, imagination, whatever experience mental or physical you're having, where is it happening? Consciousness. I can't see it because it doesn't have a form. If it had a form, you can only see things that have form. Okay, you can only touch things that have form. You can only taste and smell things that have form. You can only make sound with things that have form form but none of that is happening in your brain. So it's happening in your consciousness, in your spirit. Where is it? It has no form. Having no form, it

doesn't have a border. It doesn't have a border means it's infinite. It has no location and that's why we say these days the word is non-local. And even the scientists are saying the universe is non-locally entangled. We got the Nobel Prize two years ago, a non-local entanglement, the physicists described it. So there is a domain of reality, doesn't matter what you call it, which is without cause, which is infinite, which is spaceless, which is timeless, which is infinite, which is borderless, which has no form. And yet it is fundamental because without it, there's no experience with either mental or physical. So once we get that that and then we say, how do we create a roadmap

to explore this territory, which has been the domain in the past of sages, psychotics and geniuses. And a few people who showed up who questioned everyday reality, not just Eastern philosophers, but which with Kinshine and Chopin and Immanuel Kant who said, you know, we can only see the correlates of experience. We can see the reflections of experience. But the thing in itself where the experience is happening is the unknown. And that unknown, possibly unknowable, because it's impossible for us to comprehend the infinite. People have tried God, there is that the other, but impossible to comprehend

the infinite. We only see the activities or appearances of the infinite and people have created tools. You know, and I said, it's a motley group of sages, psychotics, and geniuses because you have to break through the hypnosis of social conditioning in order to find the spirit or consciousness in which mind happens, in which body happens, in which the universe happens all simultaneously. It's, I would say poly computational. And now when we look at biological organisms, the cells in our body, mitochondria, you know, the very, very fundamental activities,

it's poly computational, which means everything is happening all at the same time. How does a human body think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remove toxins, make a baby all at the same time? How does a human body think thoughts, play a piano, kill germs, remove toxins, make a baby all at the same time? This has to be polycomputational, okay? And then while your body is doing that, it's tracking the movement of stars and planets

as biological rhythms, sleepwalk cycles, et cetera. So for me, this is very interesting that we can use technology as a roadmap map, but it's a road map. It's not the territory. You have to have the experience. Just like when you go to a restaurant, you can read the menu and you can even imagine the experience, but you have to eat the meal. You can't eat the menu. It's okay. I uh, now you know why I think this man's so special. What happens when he starts speaking or you're reading his writing? Here's what happens to you.

And it's going to be my next question. You become more aware of things that were already happening around you that you were unaware of because you are a series of patterns in your life. And by the way, it's such a great metaphor that there's alcohol behind me and books behind him. That's just so perfect. But by the way, they're both intoxicating.

You're right. By the way, I'm intoxicated by both. It's probably, I actually combine the two often. However, you said that. One is called spirit, the other is called spirits. There you go. That's very good. Spirit and spirits. You got me there. That's very good. Spirit and spirits. You got me there. So, hey guys, I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth. And you know, by the way, it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future. If you want to change your future,

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that I've ever seen in my life. Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability, journaling, courses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influences like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers. So go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. This show is sponsored by Airbnb. I gotta tell you, I get tired of staying at hotels. I travel a lot in hotels, no offense, but they're getting noisier and noisier

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This idea of awareness though, so one of the things of this spiritual IQ, technology to me, I'm going to push you on something, has caused my overall experience with other people as I observe humans compared to say 30 years ago. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. compared to say 30 years ago and you can correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like self-awareness is at an all-time low or just awareness because of our focus into our telephones so I think technology has been a detriment to self-awareness yet you stipulate in the book that self-awareness is one of the pathways to enlightenment and a higher level of consciousness more peace in our

lives so that's why I'm sort of conflicted about this AI thing to some extent still. And so everybody ask yourself these questions in the book, if you don't mind me giving a little part of the book. When we're talking about spiritual IQ, he asks a series of 12 things you could ask yourself. I'll do them quickly then I'll ask a question. Number one, everyone, are you experiencing joy or bliss on a regular basis? Rank yourself. Two, do you show kindness in how you treat others? Rank yourself. Do you feel genuine contentment? Four, am I peaceful inside? Five,

I enjoy my work and I'm personally dedicated to it. Six, I have a creative outlet either at work or as a hobby. Seven, I have love in my life and I place high value on love. Ask yourself these questions. Eight, in comparison with others, I meet with few setbacks, obstacles, and resistance. Nine, I am free from anxiety or depression. Ten, I believe that I am leading the life I was meant to live. Eleven, in the larger scheme of things, I believe that my life has purpose and meaning. And then lastly, I value and seek insight about myself. These are 12 questions to ask

yourself could change your life. I ask them to everybody to ask you this question. You stipulate this thing about self-awareness being this pathway, how does one become more self-aware and how does AI help in that and not become just another hindrance, which in my opinion, technology has been a hindrance in that regard? behaves like a biological robot and they're basically downloading the cultural mindset, you know, whatever it is, which recycles, you know, cultural mindset includes religion, you know, whether I'm a socialist, Republican, whatever, you know, all the things that society tells me I should do to fit in. And now with AI and all the technology we have, it's become worse. One thing I do on a regular basis, which I don't have to do right now, is because I'm so used to doing it, I stop once in a while during the day. You know, I'm walking the streets of New York City. I'm seeing all these people and I'm wondering,

does anyone know, anyone of these people know that the totality of the universe in that body, that they are a walking universe. Do they know that? Are they aware of that? And you know, I look around and I see people just, you know, like the herd following whatever they're being told to do by the collective mind. And that's the hypnosis of social conditioning. So I stop in the midst of this and say, am I aware right now? Then I ask myself, what am I aware of? What am I listening? What am I hearing?

What am I seeing? What am I feeling? Basically sensations, images, feelings, and thoughts. That's the fundamental experience of reality. Sensations, which include sense perceptions, of reality, sensations, which include sense perceptions, you know, and that then you can take it as deep as you want, you know, you close my eyes and the physical world disappears. All is there is sounds and then sensations in my body and maybe some thoughts and some things I'm thinking of. Then I take my attention off the sounds. You know, all you have to do is shift your attention from sound to sensations. And then all that's left and slow progressively

till I slowly withdraw my attention from everything I'm experiencing. What's left? The infinite. What's left is the infinite, fundamental, without cause, incomprehensible awareness. Now that's a journey that took years in the past.

You know, they're all looking at the stars in the sky and they're struggling with very fundamental questions. Who am I? What do I want? Do I have a purpose? What's the meaning of this existence? And then it goes on. Do I fear death, old age, infirmity? There's no end to these questions, by the way. And some luminaries did have those experiences. And if I look at all the fundamental experiences of all the luminaries, there's a common thread. Number one, they find their identity beyond space and time.

Because if I, we started this conversation by saying, where is this experience happening? And the answer is it's happening. Beyond space and time, there's no other answer. There is this not happening on the screen. It's not happening in your eyes. It's not happening in your brain. It's happening in consciousness, which is not in space time.

So whoever these great luminaries were, they found an identity which is beyond space and time, which is not subject to birth or death. Number one. Number two, they had the spontaneous emergence of platonic values, truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, and those 12 questions that you asked. They spontaneously felt that. And number three, they lost the fear of death because they realized that death happens to

the fluctuations of consciousness, but not to consciousness. They tried to express this, but they couldn't. Rumi says God's language is silence. Everything else is poor translation. I don't know how to express the ineffable, you know, because that experience is inevitable. And it is the common ground of all experience in all philosophers, in all sages, in all psychotics, in all geniuses. Now we have tools to see tap into their minds.

What were they experiencing? What were the sages of the Upanishads experiencing? What did Shopanar mean or Omanil can't mean? You cannot know the real reality. Okay, the real reality is room, we said, is behind the curtain. In truth, we are not here. This is our shadow. Wittgenstein.

Our life is a dream. We are asleep. But once in a while, we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming. So who's the dreamer? Where is the dreamer? What is the dreamer? It's not the human body mind. It's that which is experiencing the human body mind.

Okay, wow! Okay everybody, we should just press pause for a second and let you just process all of that. But since I can't do that, I want to continue down this idea, this road of who we are. And because you brought this up and I've always wanted to ask you this I know this is even true for me so I when I say I'll say us as humans at some point I don't know what age Deepak but at some point in our lives we just sort of become a story yeah and you write about this in the book and sort of everything we do from that point in our lives is sort of to confirm the story that we're telling ourselves about who we are.

And this creates these patterns. Some people are aware they're doing it, but most people are completely unaware that they're just living this story. How does one interrupt that story and have the potential to change that narrative internally so that they can create a different life? So the story is actually very complicated story, you know, because it's not a provisional story. You know, it's your destiny as a conscious being is to play an infinity of roles, but you're not the roles you're playing, okay? You like a great Shakespearean actor.

One day you can, in the old days, by the way, you could be a woman, you could be a man. So one day you could play Cleopatra, the next day, Julius Caesar, the third day, whatever. So like a great Shakespearean actor, you're playing a lot of roles. You're a son, you're a father, you're a husband, you're whatever, you're switching roles,

you're a professional. There are innumerable, right now, you're playing the role of a podcaster with me. But as soon as this is over, you'll be playing other roles. Who is it? What is it that is playing those roles? It's you.

We'd say, I am. Before you say, I am Ed. Before you say, I'm Ed, I am. And that I am can play an infinite number of roles. So first you have to realize that, you know, it's since you are playing the role, you're the producer, you're the director, you're the choreographer, you're the hero and you're the villain of your story. Okay. Now, how many versions of those stories are there? Infinite, because that, that which is playing the roles is formless, is infinite. You know, to go the great Indian

boy said in this playhouse of infinite forms, I caught sight of the formless and then my life was blessed. His spiritual experience is to create a relationship with that which is formless. And now, you know, there's a simple way to even do that. As you're looking at me, you just become aware of the space between you and me. You realize that space has no form.

And yet without the space, there's no forms in it. In fact, the forms in space are the fluctuations of the formless. So your mind, your body and your experience of the world is the fluctuations of the formless. So your mind, your body and your experience of the world is the fluctuations of your formless self and it's a journey. But you know, because I know I'm convinced that even that which we call the physical universe actually has its origins It actually has its origins in a digital workshop outside of space time, whatever you might call it the infinite because everything is digital. The difference between this, you, me, the whiskey behind you and books behind me are

just zeros and ones. Everything is zero, one and infinite. So that's my new formula, which I didn't put in the book because zero is one is equal to infinite. I love that. I love that. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So, you know, as an adult, are you carving out time,

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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Do you feel like most people are, see I was gonna go hours with you, but I can't. So do you think, A, do you think most people are in their own way? And if they are, like someone's listening to this right now, they're like, okay,

I'm a series of patterns and stories I obviously am understanding a little bit more deeply now about this whole idea of space and time continuum but but I'm creating this world I've got around me to some extent or to all extent all extent so what how does one is it just the awareness of that or is there a daily practice? Is there something, I know meditation is so prominent in your life and mine, that someone could say, all right, I'm in my own way. I'm in my own way. I know I am.

I'm this pattern of stories and I want to interrupt that. You've talked about a spiritual experience can interrupt that pattern. Is there something else I can do or a tip, an insight into how to create that spiritual experience so that I can get out of my own way? Yes. See, what is in the way is not you. The word is in the way is and I'm not saying this condescendingly. What is in the way is ignorance of reality, ignorance of reality. The word ignorance is a very interesting word. Ignorance.

In order for you to focus on what I'm saying, you have to ignore everything else. Okay. So anytime you focus on one particular story, you're ignorant of all the other stories. Okay. Or anything these days, we call it reductionism or specialization. And so when you're, if you're a cancer therapist and you're seeing a patient with cancer, the usual oncologist doesn't care what your relationship is with your wife, what your relationship is with children, how much you sleep, what kind of food they want to make a diagnosis and they went to treat the diagnosis. And in order to do that, they have to ignore everything else that's happening in your life. Okay. Everything else that's happening. So first you realize, you know, that which is causing a problem in my awakening to my self-realization.

It's a very interesting word, self-realization. I realize what I am, not even who I am, what I am, because in that what I am is happening all these stories. Okay, so first I have to realize that I am ignorant as Ed, but I am not ignorant as I am. So get rid of every what would I be without any story? Yeah. Okay, that's where you start. Then you say, which story do I want to choose right now? And by the way, we choose the story in the moment.

You know, we may say we plan this, we plan that. Who would have known three weeks ago that Trump would be attacked, okay? Who would have known that Biden would have stepped down? I mean, look at any situation. It's in the realm of the unknown. You can try and guess, but actually it's in the realm of the infinite unknown. And so once you surrender to the infinite unknown and actually seek freedom from the known, because the known is the prisoner of the past. The prisoner of the past. Yeah, and what the unknown is the fresh ground of infinite stories, infinite possibilities, infinite potential.

Are you afraid to die? No, not at all. In fact, every night I do a meditation, my death, I imagined my body taking, going through the cremation grounds, being burnt, dust to dust, and you know, nothing left. And then I say, who is imagining that? What is imagining that? Now, let me try and get rid of that, which is imagining death. And you can't just like you can't get rid of the space. You can't get rid of conscious. That is so awesome right there. That is so awesome right there. The intersection of ego,

which interesting I had a friend of mine the other day on the surface, a very humble person. In fact, I would say to someone who lacks self-confidence, and they're always down, they're always sad. And, and I love this person. I've known them 30 years. And I said, it was interesting because then I read this in your book, like the next day, but I said, I just think you have a huge ego. And I think people conflate confidence and ego. They're different things. And she said to me, she said, well, I'm so down on myself.

How could you say I have an ego? I said, well, you're just so centered around this story. You keep telling yourself about you. And so I don't think confidence, I think you can have no confidence to still have a huge ego. And you talk about this in the book like so beautifully, but I think if I don't ask you this question,

I'm not serving the audience a little bit, but could many people that are struggling in their life right now be struggling because they have an ego they're unaware of? Well, everyone has an ego. We call it your self image. It's not yourself, it's your self image. Image.

Image. And it's a social construct again, because it has no inherent independent reality. It is based on who's thinking what of me, who am I superior to, who am I inferior to, you know, all of that. So it has no independent existence. It's a socially induced hallucination. And when it takes over, your body contracts. You see, that's the sign. When my ego becomes dominant, it also becomes, my body becomes contracted. My heart rate variability decreases.

My heart rate goes up. There's sympathetic overdrive in the nervous system. So how's the best way to deal with the ego? Well, even the question is the ultimate melodrama of the ego because your spirit doesn't care. So the way you deal with it is you feel your body. Every time you feel contracted, you bring awareness, you relax into it.

And the ultimate sign of the disappearance, ego will never disappear as long as you're in the living body. The ultimate sign of being free of the ego is what we call lightness of being. You know, where you're not anticipating the future, you're not resisting the past, you're not attached to a story. You go from, I would say you go from survival to safety,

to adaptation, to thriving, to flourishing, to flow, to awakening. That's it. What is intuition? When do you tap into intuition and how do you have it? Intuition is a form of intelligence that is contextual, that is relational, that is holistic, that doesn't have a win-lose orientation. It's eavesdropping into what I would call the block universe, future, past and present. And that's the domain of spirit and intuition. When you actually have it, um, is not fear-based.

Uh, you know, you, you've tapped into something annoying that is far more accurate, precise than the rational mind, because rational mind only operates cause effect, cause effect when everything is contextual. And so intuition is the prelude to creativity, and creativity is the prelude to our consciousness and vision and, you know, the unknowable becomes little little more grown to you. That's so amazing. You, everyone needs to know something.

I know I've talked about Wayne Dyer, my friend Wayne Dyer, you guys, many times with all of you, and he was a dear, dear friend of Deepak's, better friend of his than mine by a mile. So I've been watching this man and his works affected me for, I'm talking about Deepak here for, I don't know, 30, 35 years. And I wanted to ask you this, this is personal but I think it'll be insight for everybody. It's nothing to do with your book, just you. If I met you at 50 years old, okay, and how old are you now Deepak if you don't mind me asking? I'm going to be 78. But biologically I don't feel that. And he doesn't look at you guys. If you thought he's 78 years old.

Those of you that are on YouTube, you're going, yep, I want to have that head of hair and look that fit at 78 years old. He looks incredible. What's different about you now? If I'd have met that man compared to this man, your outlook on life, spirituality, death, God, the quantum field, anything you want to touch on. How different are you from that man, if at all? The one thing that is distinctly different is I don't feel like I need to defend my point of view. That, you know, we're all on a journey and we're all like in a spiraled staircase, you know, it recycles and then it goes a little bit up.

So I don't judge people anymore. I watched the political landscape and I see the chaos and the madness of and the insanity of the regular human condition, war, terrorism, social economic injustice, eco-destruction, climate change, chronic disease, depression. And I used to get very upset by that but if the infinite is infinite there's room for everyone and we're all on this spiral staircase so you know I've watched the show more than want to participate in it anymore and I also

don't feel I need to prove a point or defend a point of view because there are infinite points of view also. So I have, I in generally in conversations, I don't participate that much unless I'm asked a question. Then I reflect on the question before I answer it because you know that question comes from a person who's who is in their own world and if I say something like this conversation was in a way otherworldly you know most people say you know forget it I want to pay my mortgage you know right so you have to you have to realize that too. He said the show everybody, that term the show, do you know the biggest influence Deepak's had on me? And I'm a Christian, you all know I'm a devout Christian.

And the most, the deepest impact he's had on me is that I've become more of an observer of the show, of what's going on around me. And I've become more aware of myself. That's it. And I'm so grateful for that. That... By the way that is the highest intelligence to observe yourself and the show without judgment is the highest intelligence. Okay good then this alcohol thing's working for me. I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding everybody. We're just... I'm just teasing. No I appreciate that. That's been the... the uh and by the way, it's such a peaceful disconnecting from stress experience to just observe and become more observant of yourself and aware and realize that it is really... I think the show is such a powerful way to phrase it. It's just a show. The whole thing is a show. Not just the political stuff. The whole thing's a show and I've enjoyed it so much. Okay, last couple hard questions for you. I've enjoyed today immensely as I always do. Thank you.

The AI thing, let's go back, let's shift back a little bit just because I promised this to the audience. There are some concerns that that could be over a period of time become one's deity to some extent. That is a risk. I think you'd have to agree with me. I'm wondering to what extent you worry about that, that AI itself, 10, 15, 20 years from now, because of just familiarity and the pattern of accessing it for what to think or what to feel becomes some form of a deity in people's lives.

And it was actually a question my audience wanted to me to ask you knowing you were coming on. So, you know, you, you are a Harari who wrote Sapiens, then wrote another book where he basically said that the church will be replaced by AI and it will become an institution by itself that we will worship. I feel that AI is ultimately a large language model. That's all it is. And you know, the entire human civilization was created by language. You know, about 40,000 years ago, there were six types of humans, hominins, hominids. You know, we are part of a larger family like the cat family includes your cat, but also tigers, lions, cheetahs and panthers.

We had eight different types of humans. One species changed. Why? Because they created a language that went beyond danger calls, mating calls and food calls. They created stories. To be human is a story. And then it didn't stop.

The next story was money, institutions, empire states, colonialism and on and on, you know, latitude, longitude. Without those stories, this experience is not possible. Now, yeah, it's taken the next leap. It is stories and narratives that use multiple languages. So not just this language, but language of physics, of biology, of anthropology, of philosophy, of science. So in a way, AI gives us access to all the models of reality that human beings have created.

And therefore, it's our access once again to the divine. But AI is not divine. OK? It's like the roadmap. The other day I was in Aspen. I went to somebody's house, and little house, but they had signs to Madrid so many miles, Rome so many miles, Sao Paulo so many miles from this place,

and all these road signs. AI is the multiple language model that is pointing to all these places that we can visit in construction. That's very good. Okay, last question. So off camera, I'm not going to say where I was, but your son and I and some other folks were, had shared an experience together. And I love, I've got to know your son a little bit. Gotham, by the way, he's got a great son, one of the coolest producers on the planet. If you like sports, his son is the guy. Um, but in any event, I enjoyed an experience that we shared together. And one of the topics of discussion, I, I, I remember that day gone when I interview, if I interviewed Deepak again, I'm going to ask his dad this.

So we were talking about the pursuit of happiness and whether it's something you actually pursue and then went to, well, maybe you just tap into it because it already exists within you. And then I thought, well, I've talked to Deepak before, or is that just a label of a feeling or an emotion? And so I actually wish I asked you this earlier in the interview. I hope everybody's still stuck around because I think this will be good. But what is happiness?

How do we experience it, define it? And do we pursue it, chase it, tap into it? Or is it fallacy altogether? Happiness is a feeling and experience that is the opposite of sadness. Okay, so it's a feeling, it's an emotion. It's not what we call joy, okay? There's a difference between happiness and joy.

Happiness is always for a reason. And so when the reason goes away, you're not happy anymore, you become sad. But joy is fundamental and has no reason. If you're joyful, it's because you're happy for no reason whatsoever, like a baby. You see a baby is joyful, unless it's hungry, or unless it is wet, in which case it says,

ah, and then the mother gives it a bottle or changes the dapper. But then it's back to its baseline state of joy. It's looking around, it's curious, it's full of wonder. It's trying to catch your eyes, et cetera. The baby is a joyful being. Till all these stories come, you know, you are Ed, you are Caucasian, you are this, you are that, you stand for this, that, the other.

Now you have to seek happiness because there's so much contradiction in your experience of the world. So right now social scientists actually have created something called the happiness equation or the happiness formula. Here it is. H is equal to S plus C plus V. So H stands for happiness is equal to S set point in the brain.

And that set point in the brain says, when you look at situations around you, do you first see problems or do you see opportunities? How is the set point determined by your childhood? If your parents and your siblings are ecosystem that cared for you, were complaining, condemning, criticizing, playing the victim, you'll grow up to be an unhappy person. If they're always joyful, happy, looking for opportunities, no matter what this every adversity was a challenge

and every challenge was an opportunity, you'll grow up to be a happy person. That set point determines 50% of your daily experience of happiness. So H is equal to S plus C. C is conditions of living. Are you rich? Are you poor? That adds about 10 to 12% to your daily happiness experience. If you're extremely poor, you're going to be unhappy because you can't even survive without money. If you're extremely rich, you are likely to be unhappy

because you confuse your self-worth with your net worth. Your net worth becomes, you look at the stock market, I'm a billionaire, I'm this, I'm this, your ego takes over. So, and there's data now that if you win the lottery, you'd be ecstatic in the beginning. In six months, you'll plateau, in one year, you'll return to your set point. Okay. And in five years, you may be more unhappy than you were before you won the lottery. Because now you're thinking, you should have parked my money in the Bahamas. You know, how do I avoid taxes?

All the problems that come with just focusing on that as your self-worth. So that leaves 40% of the remaining. H is equal to S plus C plus V. V stands for voluntary choices that we make every day. So we make two kinds of choices every day. One for personal pleasure, alcohol, drugs, sex, entertainment, food. Do they make us happy? Yeah, they do. Otherwise, why do people pursue them? But only temporarily. If you buy a new car, you'll be very happy. Now you, now you want to, you know, maybe a Tesla, then you want not, you know, you

want something else. You want a boat, you want a yacht, never stops. And you know, shopping is the number one activity that people engage in to feel happy. It makes them feel happy, but only for a few days. And if you have an addictive personality, then you risk that because you can't get enough what you don't want anymore. You know, that's called addiction. So yes, choices that bring us pleasure make us happy, but not permanent. There are other choices that make us happy, which is permanent. They're called fulfillment

and fulfillment happens when you have meaning and purpose in your life. And when you make other people happy, not by giving them gifts, but by being a good listener, attention, affection by letting them know that you care, appreciation by noticing that every human being is unique, a walking universe, and gratitude. And if you can do that, then you're a happy person. But this has nothing to do with joy.

Joy is once you go back to your spirit as the infinite formless, it's called sat, chitta, nanda, and sanskrit, existence, awareness, and bliss, which is joy. Thank you for that distinction. That was my favorite thing today for me. So thank you. What do you have going on at Harvard on September 14th

and 15th? We have a two and a half day conference. So now 13th, 14th, and 15th. It's called Sages and Scientists, where I bring together the luminary thought thinkers of the world. So we have the woman who described or who's created the software for the Mars landing. We have astrobiologists who are looking at life on other planets. And right now the estimate is 60 billion habitable planets in just the

Milky Way galaxy. Multiply that by two trillion galaxies. The universe is teaming with life according to astrobiologists and there are departments of astrobiology at Harvard, Princeton, you name it, Cambridge, Oxford. So we have a number of astrobiologists coming, but then we are also discussing health and wellbeing, the future of the cosmos, the future of wellbeing, and the future of humanity. How do we tackle the big problems? War, social economic injustice, climate change,

health, all of that. So it's gonna be an important conference and people can check it out. Sagesandscientist.org. And I'd love to see many people there. One last note since we were talking about digital Dharma, I have an AI right now called digitaldepak.ai. It's my digital twin. And if you want any follow up questions to our conversation or anyone who wants them, they can just go to digital.debug, ask the question in English, Spanish or Arabic, and they'll hear me answering their questions

as soon as they ask the question. That's so powerful. It's there right now. I just want to thank you for impacting my life. Oh thank you, it's fun to talk to you. I love speaking with you and one of the reasons I'm blessed to reach millions of people is because of you. Well, listen, you are authentic and that's all I care. Thank you so much. Thank you.

By the way, everybody, one more time, digital Dharma, how AI can elevate your spiritual intelligence and your personal well-being. I think you can tell from this conversation, there's no wasted pages in this book. This man will not waste your time. So thank you so much again Deepak for being here today. God bless you brother. God bless you. Thank you.