THE ED MYLETT SHOW - How to Become a Great Leader with David Novak

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Unlock the Secrets of Leadership Mastery with Ed Mylett and David Novak! Leadership isn't just a role; it's a journey of constant learning and adaptation. This week, I'm excited to host David Novak, the legendary co-founder and former CEO of Yum! Brands, on a deep dive into the dynamics of transformative leadership. Together, we'll explore not just the fundamentals but the nuances that distinguish GOOD leaders from GREAT ones. Here’s a sneak peek at what you'll discover in this episode: The synergy between Active Learning and effective action How to turn knowledge into results Why continuously seeking fresh ideas is crucial for leadership growth The critical role of creating a vibrant leadership culture within your organization Vision and recognition: How these elements fuel motivation and commitment among teams The real reasons talented employees might leave and how to address these issues proactively The transformative power of mentoring and coaching, and why storytelling remains a vital skill for every leader These insights are packed with actionable strategies that can help you elevate your leadership game, whether you're leading a family, heading a startup or steering a multinational corporation. Prepare to be inspired, learn profoundly, and start implementing the kind of leadership practices that not only drive success but also foster genuine admiration and loyalty. If you're committed to excelling in leadership, this episode is your roadmap to achieving excellence and influencing others positively. Get ready to transform your approach and cultivate a legacy of effective leadership! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, welcome back to the show everybody. I am so excited to talk to this gentleman here today. He has the life I aspire to have and he's just a very fascinating man. He's an expert on leadership and he's just a very fascinating man. He's an expert on leadership and he's proven it with his results in his life. He's great a recognition culture also as well as what I would call it, but he's the co-founder, former CEO of Yum, one of the best biggest brands in the world. He's a New York Times best-selling author, already one time over and he's got a new book out right now called How Leaders Learn.

Master the habits of the world's most successful people, of which he is one of them. He also just put the group together about Valhalla Golf Club and I'm gonna have him get me out there to play some golf. So anyway, David Novak, let's have a great conversation today. Thank you for being here. It's my honor Ed. I really love everything that you do and the fact you want to make a difference in the world, so I think we're kindred spirits. I agree and I do want to make, I know this interview will do that. Guys we're gonna talk today really detailed stuff about leadership from somebody who's lived it and one of the really unique opportunities on this show. There's a lot

of people that are great at theory and philosophy and then there's people that have proven it with their track record and the results that they produce and David's like at the top of the list on this. So really the philosophy of the book is learning and it resonated with me because fortunately for me of all the mistakes I've made as a business person over the years, a long time ago I kind of like identified myself as a learner. It was sort of like the persona that I took on, meaning whatever the experience was, I wanted to deduce as much information from it, glean what I could, whether it was a win or a loss theoretically, and to learn. And I'm

wondering for you, was that something that you established early in life for yourself in business or you develop it later, and why is learning fundamental in being a great leader? I think it's something that I developed very early on in my business career because there was so much that I didn't know and I was just so focused on on on being as good as I could possibly be you know you know when I started out in business Ed what I did was I looked at who had the job above me and I said to myself, what does that person have that I need to go get?

And then, you know, I went, did everything I could to learn, you know, that those skills or those behaviors, and then I would get that job. And I just kept doing that throughout my career. Then ultimately I ended up in leadership roles, but I really think that learning is what really can expand your IQ points unlike anything else. You know and I when I started writing this book how leaders learn I started out with the concept that you know it was the avid learner that that really was the successful person and then that is true to a certain extent But then the more I thought about it is you can go learn something, but if you don't apply it and pair it with action

then It's useless It's like how many times have you seen people go to a seminar for three days and then they go back and do the same thing After they went to that three three days It happens all the time, okay? That's right. But this book is all about how you become an active learner. How you not only learn, you pair it with action and drive results. I'm a big believer that you just can't think about things.

You got to execute them. I mean, if you don't execute, you're never gonna have any real credibility. So you know, learn and then execute. I want to ask you about this distinction because you're right, I do these seminars and it's so frustrating to me when people think the knowledge that they've just gained is powerful, but it's really only powerful if it's applied somewhere, right? Otherwise it's got no vibrational frequency, no power, no impact. And so I wanted to ask you that, like, what is the difference between being a learner, you were starting to go down that road

before I interrupted you, and an active learner, and can you give me an example of how that actually manifests itself, from learning something to actively learning it? Well, I actually taught a three-day seminar when I was at Young Brands. I taught it to over 4,000 people over 17 years, and I taught every bit of it. And it was called Taking People With You. The price of admission for that course was that you had to come in with a single biggest thing

that you were working on that could impact our business. And you had to write up a little summary of exactly what you were working on. and that was a beautiful thing for me because I learned of all the things were going on in the company and then I taught the taking people with you principles everything that I had learned about how to how to take people with you because you know this I mean you can't get anything really big done by yourself you've got to have others that you got to know this I mean you can't get anything really big done by yourself You've got to have others that you got to bring along along with you

So I'd teach those principles and then I would in that class you would have to pair that with action You would have to develop an action plan that you could take back to make that single biggest thing that you're working on Happen in your piece of young brands. That's active learning. So you're you're working on happen in your piece of Young Brands. That's active learning. So you're learning with a purpose. You're learning with an approach that says, I'm going to apply this. Okay? I'm not just going to read this book.

I'm going to read this book and I'm going to be looking for insights that I can go do something tomorrow on. And that to me is what really great leaders do. They're absolute sponges. I'm sure you're a sponge. You didn't get to where you are and articulate your ability to grow yourself without really learning from tons of people

and then applying that and then thinking about it in Ways that are right for you that allow you to communicate it. You're a thousand percent, right? I started the show I started doing this because people Kind of like you with your show probably too. They wanted to know what I knew ed You have some value to provide to the world, you know do your podcast And so when I started the show it was mainly me talking provide to the world, you know, do your podcast. And so when I started the show, it was mainly me talking, not interviewing, and I would do that every single week. Now I do that on Thursdays and Tuesdays I do this, and when I

started doing the interviews, it appears to be a service I'm doing for other people, but what it really is has been a service to me, because I've got to ask questions and learn from the top people in every field in the world. Here's what's crazy about your work and why it resonated with you with me. I was telling my son about three weeks ago. He's like, dad, how come when everyone comes to see you to get coached, it seems like they do 80% of the talking and you do 20. And I said, well, I'm trying to learn from them, max.

I'm trying to deduce. And I literally said out loud, I'm an idea hunter. And then I, I read your book and I'm like, he has the term in there, idea hunter. And so I want you to elaborate, what does that mean to you? And everyone that's a leader, listen everybody, whether you're a mother or a father or you're a leader of some type, so these principles we're gonna go through right now are huge and they're not in other leadership books. Like I've never even heard that term before. So what's an idea hunter to you and why should every leader have that quality? Well an idea hunter is somebody that's looking

for things that can enhance their life or their business and ideas that they can apply that will just make themselves and the world around them better. And you know, I'm always looking for great ideas. I mean, and that's why I love my podcast too. I started this podcast, How Leaders Lead, and you know, I interview great people just like you do. But I sit there, I ask all the questions, I very rarely give my opinion. I just want them to tell their story that I learned from it.

And just like you, it's very interesting. You know, I, I post my podcast every Thursday with a great leader. You know, I just, uh, you know, I love doing that. And then we heard from our listeners that they'd kind of like to hear what I, I have to think on some of these things. So we call it, we, we, we create, we post another podcast, uh, called three questions, more three questions more on Tuesday. You know, so love that.

And, you know, it's, it's, but anyway, the idea on Hunter is someone that is just constantly on the lookout for things that can help them grow, help their business grow, help their family. You just get excited about ideas. You're right. I had, it's interesting, some of the top people in every industry sometimes will come to me to be coached,

right, or mentor, or ask questions. I'm shocked at the level of humility of most of these top people and how much they want to learn. I'll never forget, he's become a good friend of mine, but Alex Rodriguez came to me and said, hey, I'm gonna start a podcast. I want to know best practices. Can you help me out? I'm thinking sure. He'll show up, you know, we'll both have a cup of coffee. He'll take some sips. Thanks for that. No, I show up at his house. We're at a conference table. He's got his team there.

He's got a notepad out and he's writing and had a list of questions prepared for me. Now, this is someone who's already been the top level of something and I find that quality the higher they climb. Here's the thing that fascinates me about somebody like you and everyone can suffer from this disease. So I want everyone to hear this at whatever level you're at, small business owner, maybe it's getting a little bit bigger. It's easy to be a learner when you're a beginning leader because you know, you don't know a lot of things and you've not produced a lot of results. So in your mind, you think it's a necessity for me to learn to get to a level where I produce results. So I think most people that are on the climb as a leader do that. And then for a lot of people, and maybe even I suffered from this a

little bit at some point, you begin to think you know a lot because you produced a lot of results. The higher you climb, the less you think you need ideas from other people. And I look at someone like you who's achieved these incredible results in your life. Did that become harder to ward off the temptation not to want to learn from people, even in your own team, that might have roles that you're in charge of managing and leading. I've just found that in my life, when people have climbed higher, that's when their learning window begins to close.

Did it get harder for you the higher you climbed candidly? And have you seen that symptom in the disease of leaders that do climb higher? I think I'll answer it for myself first. I've always had a really healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo. I've always wanted to be a part of something great. And I never wanted to be a one hit wonder.

I didn't want to have one good year and then a bad year. So I've always had a hunger that I think made this learning mentality, this habit, become a part of me and what I do. It's very interesting. When I look at leaders, the very best leaders, they have an uncanny combination of being humble and confident. Okay? And I should really reverse that. They're confident and humble. They're confident, Ed, because nobody's gonna follow you unless you give them a sense that you know where you're going. I mean, you're focused on the future. You have great intentionality. You're going after something that people basically

want to be a part of. People will follow you if you have that kind of confidence, okay, in your vision. But the humility says, I don't know it all. I haven't done it yet. I need you. And those are, that's the thing that I think takes leaders over the top, okay?

Because that's when people will give you, give you their heart, you know, not just their head and their hands, they'll give you their heart. They'll follow you because you, they know that they're appreciated and they're valued. And I think that's, that's everything, but it's a very uncanny combination because a lot of people don't have it. Where I see people derail is exactly what you said. They think they know it all. They think they've got to be the smartest person in the room.

A lot of times they get to a level and they go, I got to act like I know something even if I don't. And those are the worst. But I really think that the people that I admire the most as leaders are constantly learning. You mentioned Alex Rodriguez. I'll tell you my athlete story. I'm very good friends with Tom Brady. Now Tom Brady, he's constantly learning.

He's probably the most impressive leader I've ever talked to, because he knows his trade like you cannot believe. He's very confident, but he's just so hungry for doing the best he can. So let's say Tom Brady goes to Tom House. Tom House is the best throwing coach in the world, okay? He spends three days with Tom House

and then goes back and sets up the same way, releases the same way as he did before. He's done nothing, okay? But I talked to Tom House. Tom Brady is like peppering him with questions, taking notes, writing it in his notebook so that he goes back, that he can truly execute it. And I think that's what I see in all the very best leaders.

I agree with you. I actually wrote my book. It's amazing how much we overlap on this. I love it. I actually, my favorite people have that combination of the two traits, humility and confidence or confidence and humility. Those are the people I like to surround myself with.

People with a bunch of confidence with no humility. At some point I find they burn out and fry. They make a big tactical mistake at some point. And people with no confidence and have a ton of humility, you feel like you have to drag them through life and through business all the time because they're constantly on the ground. You've got to pick them up. So 100% agree. I was at something with Tom. I won't get into the details of it. We were learning to do some yoga and some stretching at this event we were at together. And it was a very small event so we were together the whole time and

it was funny because he's one of the greatest athletes of all time and I'm not but I was finding it easier me and a couple other guys to get into these yoga positions than he was and they kept coaching him so hard on it was we take a break and they go okay they'd walk around to who they need to correct and they almost every time it was It almost became like a joke, you know, but he wanted to learn how to do it So badly didn't affect his ego didn't affect his attitude about things. He asked extra questions So I'm a thousand percent in agreement with you

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slash my let what's a practical thing so I was thinking about this how do I maybe I've not been that type of leader before and now I'm listening to you and I'm going that's been the whole of my game the whole time I don't create an environment where people share information because they don't feel like it's valued. So what's a practical step as a leader if I'm running a company or a team where that I can begin to shift that culture a little bit where it's an environment where people know I want to elicit information from them and that their feedback is valued. How do you do that if you haven't been doing it? Well, I think the first thing I would do is say,

okay, Ed, you want to be a know-how builder, okay? You want learning to spread in your organization. So what do you need to learn? I mean, it's very simple, but what are those things that you think would make you and your organization better? then Think about your network and think about the world. Who can you go to? to learn these traits

and then Systematically start doing it, you know, like when we started young brands I really believe that nobody wants to wake up every day, go to work and be a part of something mediocre. I think people want to to to wake up and be a part of greatness. Okay, so very early on, I didn't know how we were going to do it. But I set out with the intentionality to build the Yum dynasty. Okay, so I wanted to build know-how on how you do that. So at the time, we went and visited in the United States, as a partner council, I had a top group.

We went to the top performing companies that had consistent results year after year after year. So we went to the Walmarts. We went to the Southwest Airlines. We went to Home Depot. and then we came back and we Codified what these great companies do and those became our young dynasty drivers And then we we worked on getting better at those things every single day now The one thing that everybody said was the most important thing that they focused on in their company

Was creating a culture where everyone counts. And that way, I don't care who it was, it wasn't just Southwest Airlines, it was Home Depot, you know, even back then when you talk to Jack Welch, okay, and GE had a great track record back then. He talked about the importance of his culture and and making sure people are developed and all this, you know. They all talked about it in their own own different ways. And I think you can't have a culture where everyone counts unless you let them know that they're valued. And and that's why I

was such a big proponent and I think really differentiated my leadership career on the basis of recognition. Can we talk about that? Because that's a part of the book as well. It's one of the benchmarks. I'm a big believer that what you want people to do, you should recognize for not threatened for. But you said two things here. I'm gonna let you kind of go on this because boy, I love what you're saying. Twice you've said people want to be a part of something great. And it's amazing to me how many leaders just forget to talk about, we're going to make history, we're going to do something big, stretching vision. They get so caught up in the day to day, right? And then the other thing I think human beings want is they want to be recognized.

They want to feel special. So just, I'm going to let you go on those two topics as a leader. How important is it of casting a vision and sense of the historic sense of doing something great and at the same time having great recognition? Yeah. Oh, I think you need both of those so badly. You know, I really believe in having a future back vision. Where are you going to take your business and then really have, you know, this is where I want to go and then work your way back to where you are today and what are those steps that you're going to have to take to get to where you want to go. That future-backed vision I think is absolutely critical and the leaders have it. Now when you have that

kind of vision and it's elevated, people really want to embrace it. You know, we started out with this notion of building the young dynasty, and we had great success, and then all of a sudden I said, you know what, we can do more now. We've been best practice than everybody else. What we want to do now is to become the defining global company that feeds the world. What did that mean? I wanted to have a recognition culture that people wanted to emulate. They'd come to us now as a best practice company. How do you recognize your people?

How have you become so famous for recognition? We wanted our brands to be vibrant everywhere we do business. And then we wanted to feed the world, not just people, our food, but we wanted to help the hungry. And we wanted to help the hungry. Okay? And we wanted to feed the hungry. So we tied in with the World Food Program as our social responsibility effort. And, you know, sometimes I wonder, why did our company do so well? You know, it's just like we were three brands, everybody's fast food, pizza, taco bell.

Why do we do so well? I think it's because God said, hey, we're valuing people. We're feeding people. We're recognizing people. And I think when you do the right things, the right things happen. So this vision thing was huge. And while I'm rambling, I'll ramble on recognition. OK, you're not rambling.

It's great. I'll tell you a story that impacted my life, Ed. More than anything, I became the chief operating officer and I write about this in in the book of Pepsi Cola company I didn't know anything about operations, but how do you what do you do when that happens? You've got to learn from the people that do so I part of my routine was I go out on Monday leave on Monday Come back on Friday, but I'd go into the bottling plants and meet it and have coffee at six o'clock in the morning, take doughnuts in, talk to people. So I'm in St. Louis, Missouri, and I'm talking to a group of route salesmen, people who drive

the trucks for Pepsi, and I'm talking about merchandising, which is critical because merchandising is what you got to have in the stores and and So there about ten people there roundtable, and I'm looking you know talking to everyone They say hey listen if you want to learn about merchandising you should talk to Bob Bob is the best at merchandising anybody we've ever seen and They everybody started heaping all this praise on Bob. And then I look across the table at him, just like I'm looking at you here, and he's crying. And I said, Bob, why are you crying?

He said, well, I've been in this company for 47 years, and I didn't know people felt this way about me. Now that hit me in the gut. So I said to myself, from that point on, I was gonna to make recognition the number one behavior that I would drive in our company. And so then I said, how do I do it? I got to be president of KFC. And I said, well, I want to have fun doing it. I don't want to be just the normal CEO that's got the blue suit on, red tie, walking know walking around. I said I want to have fun

So I found this floppy chicken a rubber chicken Okay, and I started making that my recognition award and I started recognizing people when I saw them doing the things that I knew would drive our business and that led to an evolution for me in the sense that I Started to understand the power of purposeful recognition. And I write about this in the book because, and you mention it, what are those behaviors that you know are going to drive your results? When you see them, recognize them.

And the big thing that I think I did differently is I had fun doing it. I did it with my floppy chickens and people saw how it moved people. People would cry when they got this floppy chicken. One of our engineers died and in his coffin, he had his floppy chicken. I mean, that shows you just the power of it. Now, what happened was this took off and everybody all the leaders at KFC developed their own personal recognition awards

Like if you played basketball or whatever you might give away a mini basketball or or you know One guy had a fasten your seat belts award everybody created their fun awards and they started giving away when they saw people their fun awards and they started giving away when they saw people doing the behaviors that we knew would drive results. And this took off all around the world. People said, hey this won't work in China, you know, because of China, brother number one is, you know, the key, you know. Right. People love to have fun in China. People love to have fun in Russia. People love to have fun in India. They loved it everywhere we went. And because people, there's a deep down human need to be recognized for what you bring to the party and to feel valued. And if a leader understands that and understands recognition and purposeful

recognition, they are so far ahead of everybody else. The one thing I would say that is a mind blowing fact, I have, see, we researched this at Yum and every other big company I know researched it. You know what the two reasons why people leave companies, Ed? Number one, they don't feel appreciated. And number two, they don't get along with their boss. OK?

And those are tied together. So that's why we focused on recognition. And then we focused on leadership development to try to give the people who had the privilege of leading people the skills they needed to be better coaches, not bosses. I hate the word boss. We call them coaches. And that's why, frankly, I taught taking people with you. And, you know, when I retired, Ed, I said, what the

hell am I going to do now? Well, I wanted to focus on what gives me joy and it's developing leaders. I'm trying to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And that's why I wrote this book. David, this is so good. I love this because we haven't had this topic in a while on the show, and we certainly never discussed it this way. This is like right up my alley. I love what we're talking about right now. And if you're listening to this, you know, be an active listener and learner, right? Like you don't just listen. Don't just learn actively. Listen and learn to go back to the early interview. Ask yourself, how good are you at recognizing people? How much of it is a part of your culture? As a father or mother, how good are you at it? As a business leader, that notion that people leave because they don't get along with their boss and they're not paid attention to, it's hard to not get along with somebody who likes listening to you. Just that alone helps you get along with somebody.

The combination of listening and recognition. I know when I walk into companies most of the time, whether that is a company that facilitates open feedback or doesn't, and whether they have world-class recognition or not, you can feel it. It's a frequency. It's the lack of a place of open feedback, which is listening, in my opinion, and a recognition-based culture where we are trying to find a way to make you feel good, not catch you doing something wrong, because people will live up to how you treat them and they will do more for recognition than they will money. This is just my opinion. I couldn't agree with you more, you know, and that's why, you know, This is just my opinion. I couldn't agree with you more, you know, and that's why, you know, you know, I write about trusting and positive intentions.

You know, you know, how many companies just create all this bureaucracy trying to catch the one tenth of one percent of the hundred percent that goes wrong. They put these processes in. I love like how a Kender Scott has a great philosophy for customers when they come in her shops. Okay. And she trains people. She doesn't give them a manual with like, you know, 20 pages, you know, 20 inches of rules. She says, how would you treat your sister? The sister role. I mean, that is brilliant. That is brilliant. That is so good.

You know, but you know, I think that she and they believe in recognition, you know, Southwest Airlines believes in recognition. All the great company believes in recognition. But the leader, it has to start with the leader. I know you know this, you know, because you know, I know how you think, you know, leaders cast a shadow. People do what the leader does.

Okay. And if you don't show people that you value them, if you don't show them that you believe in recognition, the people below you won't do it either. They just have a tendency. And that's where you find those dead companies. You find those dead companies where that leader's just sitting in their office, sitting on their ass, doing nothing, you know, thinking that they're doing something but not doing what they could be doing. They might be really smart, but they're only getting about, you know, a tenth of what they could get out of

that organization. And they don't know it because they're not self-aware, which is what you talk about later in the book too. Self-awareness as a leader, also a trait that's one of my favorite. Even if you have an odd personality quirk, it becomes redeeming when you're aware of it and make fun of it.

Even if you have a bad temper, a little bit everybody, which is not a great quality as a leader, at least if you were aware of it and made fun of yourself about it it would lose some of its sting. I'm not saying have a bad temper but self-awareness is huge. So if you merge these two things together for me because you're you own this content because you've lived it. What's managed two up and two down mean? I know what it means but I want you to tell them after reading and self-awareness wrapped around it. Okay. Managed two up and two down. Okay.

I think if you're coming up in an organization, you obviously want to have a great relationship with your, with your boss. Okay. And, and you know, so you, you need to know how they're thinking, what they're thinking, and you want them to know that you have their best interest at heart and that you're trying to help them in the organization, okay? But you got to manage two up. You just can't focus on your boss. You got to focus on your boss's boss or go as high up as you possibly can, okay? And that's when you got to realize when you get in with that person that's one

level or two levels up or more, that's when you gotta make the most of it because that's when you show people you've got potential. You're not just doing the job that you're in. When you get a chance to have that meeting or be with that person, you wanna go in and you wanna talk about the things that you would be doing if you were them or what the company could be working on that shows that you think about the business bigger.

And so that person's gonna look at you when it's time to look when they have your review process. They're going to say, oh boy, yeah, you know, that person has a heck of a lot of potential. Okay. So it's, you know, it's two up, two down. You have to motivate the people that work for you. You really do. Your direct reports and you want to, you want them to feel a part of your team.

There's a law on leadership which I believe is no involvement, no commitment. So you definitely want to get people involved and make sure that everybody on your, every one of your direct reports knows that you need them, you value them and that you're looking for them to make you better because you know that you need them. Okay. The two down is going to the front line, go as close as you possibly can to the customer where it really happens and make sure that whatever you're thinking is really, really happening where it matters most, which is with the front line who's making it happen

for your customers and make sure that really works. You need to validate your own assumptions and the thoughts that you may have. But I think that two up, two down is a great way to think about it. And if you really wanna grow in a company, you better show the people above your boss that you got a heck of a lot of potential.

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What about their awareness level of themselves? To me, I connect with people who have a sense of themselves, their strengths and their weaknesses. Right. Couldn't agree more. That's where I had what I call my three by five exercise. Okay. And every year I do it myself and I put my, I do a three by five card and I write down who am I today and what do I want to be tomorrow? Okay. So for example, believe it or not, when I was coming up, I, I was really enthusiastic, really passionate. That's arguably. Yeah.

But you know what? When you're 26, 27 years old, you're working around a lot of people because you're getting promoted faster than other people, you've got to temper that enthusiasm. You've got to temper that passion so that people will see you as more mature. But you have to be aware of how people think of you.

In my book, Taking People With You, you know in my book taking people with you I write about you know My leadership style and I'm a marketing person. That's how I came up But in marketing I always ask the question what perception habit or belief do you need to change build or reinforce to grow your business or grow yourself? Okay, so when it came to people your business or grow yourself. Okay. So when it came to people and in leading, I would always ask myself, what perception have it believed do I have to change, build or reinforce to take people with me? And they might say, like when I was at Pepsi, Wayne Calloway was the chairman of PepsiCo. I loved Wayne. I was with Paul Bearer at his funeral. We loved each other. okay? But he saw me as a marketing guy.

I went to him one time and I said, you know, and I'd always go in with those four or five ideas to show him I have potential. And then he finally asked me faithfully, he said, you know, David, what do you wanna do with your career? I said, well, I wanna be a division president. He said, well, you're a really good marketing guy. And I said, well, Wayne, I wanna be a division president. He well, you're a really good marketing guy. And I said, well, Wayne, I want to be a division president.

He says, you're a really good marketing guy. I said, Wayne, I want to be a president. He says, I'll make you president of marketing. We could improve PepsiCo's marketing function. But when I walked out of that room, I had the self-awareness. I had the self-awareness that I was going to have to demonstrate that I was more than just a marketing guy, that I wasn't just an airy-fairy creative person

That I could make money, you know work with the front line get things done And that's when the job came open to be the chief operating officer for the Pepsi Cola company and I went in and I took On a new challenge and I definitely learned from this new challenge, but it was like I said to my boss I said look, you know Craig whether he I said if I don't do a good job in this job you can fire me in six months put me back in my fire me put me back in marketing but you got to give me a chance I begged him for the opportunity and I got that job and that's how I end up being the president of KFC that's awesome story that is an awesome story and you what I got to say everybody's like to some extent it's read the room

you know, I've watched my intensity over the years be a bit too much for people when I was younger and I learned to temper that and soften it to some extent actually even poke fun at myself for having it Just like what you just did and it's an important quality of a great leader I've been dying to ask you this question, and it's not in the book, but it's got to do with leadership. So maybe the most read business book the last decade or so is Good to Great by Jim Collins.

Have you read the book? You know what I'm talking about? Okay, I'm interested, if you can be candid, philosophically, whether you agree. And so everybody, let me just point it to you this way. Colin's premise is basically get the right people on the bus if you're a leader of a company, but that ironically most companies aren't led by great visionary, super charismatic, high energy people. That's an overall summary that's not fair to what the book truly says,

but I'm making a generality. And then I've always thought, yeah, that's true. But then I've looked at business, I'm like, well, that's Steve Jobs, that's not Sam Walton, that's not Elon Musk, that's not Mark Cuban, that's not Jack Welsh. So I've watched some pretty charismatic, vision-stretching, dynamic people lead great movements in my career.

And so I've always wanted to ask somebody who is an expert and has known these actual people, you know them, and you've seen companies of all different types succeed and fail. Where do you come down philosophically on that? Well, I think that Jim Collins, if I recall in that book, talked about these leaders that he's talking about as being level five leaders. They didn't necessarily have to have that charisma and all that kind of good stuff. And I think it is possible to be an excellent CEO without having a ton of charisma.

But I think having a little charisma actually helps a hell of a lot. Now, here's what he's trying to get at, is that the leader that's got all this charisma and is a promoter, okay? Nailed it. I know where you're going with this. Then, you know, that leader, okay, that leader is not... You got to watch out for them. So that's why he talks in his book about the importance of being a clock builder. Okay. And that's putting process and discipline around what really matters.

So I would say, Hey, if I could have somebody on my co in my company, leave my company that had charisma, okay. That could fire up the troops, that could be inspirational, and had an appreciation for building the clock, process and discipline around what really matters. I'd take that person over a, let's say a level five boring leader

that everybody really appreciates him for how smart they are. Now they both can be very effective. But leadership has to flex. You mentioned Elon Musk. I read his book, the book Walter Isis's autobiography or biography on Elon Musk. Have you read that yet, Ed?

No. You've got to read it, OK? Because Elon Musk is a furniture breaker. I wouldn't do hardly anything that he does because he's just damn, he's just damn tough on people, you know, but what he's tried to do and to be a true innovator, he had to break some furniture to get it done.

And he worked his ass off and he's got his vision and he got people around him who ultimately will follow him. Now he's not worried too much about taking people with you. You kind of find you get on his highway or you get off of it. Okay. Yeah. And that's rare, right? I look at it like to be honest with you, by the way, I've recommended Colin's book as much as any book I've ever recommended, but I've also looked at business. And I think what he's warning against is these super high energy charismatic leaders lack humility

sometimes, lack self-awareness, lack the ability to still learn. So to me, if you're a high energy super charismatic leader, you especially need to read David's book because it comes with the territory. When you're a big driver in high energy and visionary You really better have the skills of learning fostering this environment that he's describing recognizing other people So to me, it's kind of a combination of both. I just love your answer about that, too What about process and discipline like but you use it like in the book like a golf comparison? Is the way that you do it in the book. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

You have to have a process and discipline around what really matters. In every business and every team, there's things that really matter. And if you want to have great execution, you can't leave them to chance. You got to have process and discipline. So think about, let's just take Jason Day, for example, okay, a great golfer. You watch him on television, right? He closes his eyes. OK.

You know, he visualizes the shot. OK. What's a good shot look like? OK. He opens his eyes. He sees that shot. He goes in there and he does the same thing every single time. Because he knows that he's got visualization

is the key to him really pulling off the shot. All these guys have great golf swings, but do they see the shot? Yeah. And if you see the shot, you have a real good chance of hitting that shot. And I think in business, you have to have process and discipline around what really matters.

I mean, if you want to make your customers happy, you got to measure customer satisfaction in some kind of way and hold people accountable for that. You know, you know, measures a lot of times can be boring, but they're very important because measures show people what you really expect as you well know and But those measures should be around what really matters, you know, so many times people have a thousand measures They get their major and everything. I remember when I went to pizza, you know I couldn't believe the measurement book we had and I said People you know, I think people can only remember what, three of the ten commandments?

What makes you think you're gonna remember 20 things here? And all these things are not created equal. So leaders have to be disciplined enough to figure out what really matters in their business and then put the, build the clock around it. So good. I just think in listening to you, how cool this time in history is, that, I just think in listening to you, how cool this time in history is, that for free right now, somebody is in your brain about this topic, because this space exists now. 25, 30 years ago, there'd be no access to you in a live conversation.

I guess what it goes to is my gratitude for what we're doing right now. Every once in a while in these interviews, I go, this is crazy good, this is crazy good. And I want to acknowledge that with you. I'm just so grateful for your wisdom. It's just very special that we get to talk about this. So I told everyone we're going to move all over the place, but I've had a hard time over the years letting people go. And one of the things I've had other people in my companies tell me, one of my strengths is that I believe in people so deeply.

It's also I've been criticized for, you know, I see people as they can be, sometimes not as they are. And over the years, I've seen them as they can be, and they just never became it. And I've had a hard time letting people go. So literally not doing it. And then when I do it, not being incredibly great at it, frankly, it's a huge weakness of mine. And you talk about it in the book. So I want to ask you about that letting people go both ways go sort of the top and go bye bye.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, first of all, I love your approach. If I if I got a first of all, I love your approach. If I if I got to bet on somebody, I'll bet on somebody that's rounding up on people and believing in them and seeing the potential that they have. But I think what people like yourself, myself, we had to learn. OK, is is the importance of of holding people accountable. All right? And as much as you might believe in a person,

if they're not executing what needs to be done, then you have to do something about it. Now, my big belief is you coach first. You have to coach first. And you give people a chance to go change and take that coaching, get the self-awareness. Because sometimes people don't have good self-awareness. And then if it doesn't work, I'd really watch very closely

how that person is taking the feedback. And if they're not really making some changes, then you hit them with a two by four. You are like, hey, hey listen pal, you know, my friend, if you don't change, it's this a bad ending to this movie. Okay. And then if they don't change, then you fire. Okay.

Then you, but you can look yourself in the mirror because you know that you've coached them. There's no, the worst thing that can happen is when somebody comes into your office and is surprised that you feel this way about them and you're taking them out. Right. There should be no surprises. Okay.

Um, but I think what really happens and is really great is when you have your approach, you give people feedback, you're telling them that they have a chance to to be something and they saw I'll give you a great example this I was so blessed to work with as our original chairman at Young Brands Andy Pearson at the time he was around 70 years old. I was 44 or so, you know and We also had Jamieon on our board. Okay. And I became the, I was the CEO and, and he said to me, he said, David, you and Jamie Dimon are going to be the two

best CEOs of your era. Now, Jamie Dimon certainly was, I'm not putting myself in his league at all. Okay. But what I'm saying is, is that that confidence, that belief that he had in me and what I could become and, and the kind of results that I could drive, man, and he was a tough guy. Okay.

Which even made it better because he had high standards. And that's another reason why you have to take out the under performers, because if you allow that, that demotivates the top performers. Okay. So, you know, really, you know, I think that having the fact that Andy Pearson had those high standards would say that to me and, and he, I re I respected him so much, man, I would have gone through a wall for him, but it gave me confidence that I needed to do because I was frankly, I don't know what that, what's that's that phrase that I'm it's a little technical for me imposter

Impostor syndrome, you know, I mean we're all you know, when you're moving up, you're all faking your way through something at some point That's right. Even Tom Brady said when you don't have confidence Fake it until you make it, you know, it's like, you know, it's kind of you know, but but You know, I think that's how I look at it and I know, it's like, you know, it's kind of, you know, but, but, uh, you know, I think that's how I look at it. And I really think that's a, a really important role for a leader. And because I really believe this one final comment on this, it comes back to, do you want to be a part of something great or not? The best thing you can do as a leader is have an A-Team mentality. If you're on this team, you got to be an A-Player. Gosh, that's so good.

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I read a book a long time ago it was about the Celtics. I'm messing this up of course but it was team ego. That back at one point you know the leaders didn't have ego but the team did meaning when you throw this uniform on you just play different when you're Celtic The Yankees have that you can create that culture in your company like this is the a team We've got greatness happening here when you get to the top of this thing greatness is gonna happen for you I just really believe that creating that culture. I want to ask you about mentors So you mentioned Jamie Dimon if I remember it right Sandy wild kind of mentor Jamie when he was a young guy

Until he fired him. Until he fired him, that's right, exactly. But it was a mentor to him when he was young, and then he did fire him. But in your case, did you have a mentor and should a leader, a CEO of a company find a mentor outside? Do you believe of creating mentoring environments within your company where someone sort of got a ride-along mentor or is that not part of the structure that you've set up over the years? What we tried to focus on was creating a coaching mentality. Okay? You know a lot of people think that it's when you're a mentor you got to commit to that person. It's not just a you know I mean it takes time so you

can't really mentor a lot of people in my opinion because I think it takes such a such a big commitment But you know Andy Pearson was a mentor. I was very lucky I would or I'd rather say blessed. Okay that when I was coming up I never worked for somebody who didn't run a function or end up running a company They were all great leaders, you know, they and they all invested in me. So I never had the bad boss. I am so glad. I get asked about how do you handle a bad boss all the time? I say, well, it's a tough one for me to answer

because I never had one. But I had all these people who invested in me, but they were coaches. But I never really, I would go to people that could coach me on things. Like when I became CEO, I didn't have any financial experience with Wall Street. So I finagled my way into Warren Buffett's office

in Omaha, okay? And I went to see him basically for 17 years, every year. And we became friends and I learned from him. And he taught me so much about how to deal with Wall Street Let me give you a good. This is a great insight. I think your listeners like this He talked to me about the concept of sober selling He said David. I bet you really love your brands. Oh, I said, yeah, I do it He says he said do you ever tell people what could go wrong?

and I said No, I'm really trying I'm selling my company to be honest with you. I don't really tell them what could go wrong. He said, tell people what could go wrong. It'll give you more credibility. And so what I did is I started going at the end, I said, now I've told you all about our company, but let me tell you the three things that could go wrong if you invested in our company.

Many times they'd start arguing with me and tell me, oh, that's not going to happen. Didn't matter. The fact that I, but that was, that was, but that's what you can get when you seek out learning from others, when you seek out best practices. See, that's the power. See my, look what happened to my IQ points.

I don't, I guarantee you, if I took an IQ test and I've said this many, many times to many, many people, I'd probably just be average. I don't think I'm really any smarter than anybody else, but my learning IQ is off the charts and that's how I survive. That's how I've flourished is because of that mindset. Likewise, my IQ is average to maybe subpar. You said that in the beginning of the interview by the way I was almost stacked that great point that as you're learning you're stacking IQ points. I never looked at it that way but that probably explains why I became moderately successful in my

life because it certainly wasn't based on my baseline. It was based on what I acquired through learning. I think another reason Ed I'm going to say why you successful is that your other directed You really genuinely care about other people learning and other people gaining your knowledge I think the people who have the the blessings that you and I have had to keep them to ourselves They're just being selfish and and when people know that you've got their best interests in heart They're gonna they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna buy what you're into And I don't mean just sales

I'm just talking about they're gonna buy into who you are what you're all about and want to help you Get to where you want to go and it just happens that way What a great point, you know, you interviewed like a hundred great leaders for this book I think I'd be remiss if I didn't share that with everybody else I mean, there's 80 a hundred leaders in this book. So it's not just you and I'm wondering Could you deduce any common traits between them common practices of active learning anything that you saw that? Overlapped or traits that stood out amongst these people. I think the biggest trait is what I talked about earlier the the combination of confidence and

The biggest trait is what I talked about earlier, the combination of confidence and humility. But I do think that all of them learned how to listen. You know, I remember talking to Ken Chanalt, who had a great track record running American Express. He thought he was really good at listening, and he found out that when he went into meetings, they called it the kin zone. Because if you didn't say what he was thinking you ought to say,

he went into this zone, and nobody thought he was paying attention to anything. And he learned that. And he said, so I really, really tried to be a much better listener. And it took me five years before finally someone said, hey, kin, you're a really good listener, OK? But I think listening is a really key trait.

The other thing that I think the really best leaders are, they're pattern thinkers. They're very good at learning what's going on in one industry or with their competitors and then saying, OK, if it's working over here, how can I make something similar work in my business? Okay? And then they come up with new ideas. I mean, I can tell you, that's how I developed

most of my best ideas when I was working with Frito-Lay and Pepsi and Young Brands, is that, you know, I did pattern thinking. I saw what other people were doing, and that led to Cool I did pattern thinking I saw what other people were doing and that led to Cool Ranch Doritos I saw what other people were doing and that led to the the lovers line of pizzas you know you know I saw what other people were doing and you know it led to you know adding know-how building to our culture you know all these things so it was like hey

they're doing it over here in a successful. Why can't we do it? What a great key What a great I was thinking when we were when we were prepping I got we're running out of time this flew by Like we should do three of these I'm eating this up because to me. This is like this is life. This is what I thrive on This is the topic that you know the meant the people that you've been around and what you've achieved yourself is just so remarkable. I was prepping for this and I was thinking, who are my favorite leaders I've had in my life

that I worked with or for? And it's really interesting. I gotta tell you guys, just to confirm all of his philosophy and theory here, they were the ones who listened the best to me, that asked me the most questions, that I thought valued my opinion the most. They're also the ones that didn't just publicly recognize me, that asked me the most questions, that I thought valued my opinion the most. They're also the ones that didn't just publicly recognize me, but privately. They would tell me,

Ed, I'm proud of you. You know, Ed, you're special. You know, I remember those conversations 30 years later. You just shared one from 30 years ago yourself, where someone tells you that it's these private recognition in addition to public is so significant. But as I watch you and I've watched other leaders, I want to ask you one last question. It's just something I've noticed. It doesn't have to do with learning, but it's a leadership question because I've asked you so much about the book. I still want them to get the book, right? By the way, guys, it's How Leaders Learn. How Leaders Learn Master the Habits of the World's Most Successful People. By the way, I did another intro about his first book that you can also go get, which he's published as well,

which is Taking People With You, but go get this one, How Leaders Learn For Now. I want to ask you about storytelling. I'm watching you and you're great at it. You're a great storyteller. And most leaders I've been around that can move people have bought into the idea of facts tell but stories sell. And if they can learn this little nuanced ability when they're listening to people to tell them a story that paints a picture somehow, it's just a little thing I've noticed over the years that seems very common amongst the people that can captivate humans and lead them,

is the vast majority know how to tell a story and they're conscious of learning to tell more stories rather than just spew data and information. Just wondering if you've noticed that too, it's something that you've had to work on, have you just always been good at it? Just your overall thought about that. I think storytelling is the way that people will remember what you have to say. I mean people will remember stories and it took me a while to pick up this trait. You know it's funny I look at this conversation that we're having and I've loved every bit of this. I mean it's just been so much fun for me. And I can articulate what I believe and tell you stories. But if I gotta talk about pattern thinking, I'll talk about Cool Ranch Doritos.

If I gotta talk about failure, I'll talk about Crystal Pepsi. These are things that happened in my life. If I gotta talk about recognition, I'll tell that Bob story. Yes. But let me tell you something. For all of you coming up in in your career, this does not happen when you just get out of school. It takes you time and grade to really pick up these traits. People don't believe it when I tell them I used to be a terrible presenter. I used to say, you know, a thousand times.

I would tell a stupid goofy joke just to relax myself before I even got into my presentation. And now people will actually pay me to give speeches, you know, and it's like, I can't believe this is actually happening to me. Okay. But it's not something that you roll out of bed and pick up. But you should learn from the fact that as you're going through life, think about those stories that you see

that you can apply to your business and with your family. And, cause people will remember what you're trying to say so much better. You know, it's, if you can get people to drink the water for themselves, I always say telling isn't selling. You know, it isn't. You know, you wanna have people draw their own conclusions because it's infinitely more powerful.

When you tell those stories, it makes a difference. When I tell that Bob story, everybody says, God, I gotta do a lot better job recognizing. One other point on this, unfortunately, just four weeks ago, my wife Wendy passed away. She was my truth teller in life. We were married for 49 years. I'm so sorry.

And my daughter did a eulogyogy and I did a eulogy. And when I first walked into that church, Ed, I couldn't get one sentence out. I cried. I still have waves of tears. I still do. But I went back in, did it again, went back in, did it again, went back in and did it again. But we gave my wife such a tribute and it was such a celebration because of one reason. We told everybody stories about Wendy Louise Novak

and it was those stories that people and you know what people walked out of this. It was those stories that people, and you know what? People walked out of this. It was an unbelievable service. We had Drew Holcomb come who sang our favorite songs, Fly, Gratitude. I wrote a song for Wendy that was sung at the, that I'd written, I gave it to her our 48th wedding anniversary. And then we had Amazing Grace. We had a great, the servant, the minister was incredible, you know, it was just, but people walked out of that service and said, I'm going to be a better person. I need to love my wife more.

You know, I want, that's what people resonate with. And, boy, I mean, I'm with my wife like you cannot believe, okay? But the stories and the moments and the memories that we have with each other, you know, I'm trying to move it from being sad to glad, okay? But it's those stories that the things that she did that I remember that had impacted my life so much. And that's that's what I think it's all about, and storytelling is critical. Hmm. God bless you. I'm so sorry for your loss. I get emotional too. So,

I just would never know that happened four weeks ago with the way you showed up today. You're just such a remarkable man and thank you for being willing to share that with everybody. What a blessed conversation. I'm so grateful that we did this together today and I'll say an extra prayer for you and your family tonight as well and part of that prayer is gratitude for such a great experience today I'm immensely grateful for the time. So thank you so much David. I'm grateful. I was really Just so honored to Be asked to be on this show. I mean this is an amazing Job that you do. I mean you you you you're doing good in the world

And I know you're happy guy because the happiest guys in the world are other directed, and you are. That's right. Well, so are you, brother. You just helped so many people today. And I just cannot get over the way you showed up with this energy, and you're kind and giving heart, and you're brilliant. So I'm so grateful for today. Wow, just wow, wow, wow. It's David Novak, everybody, and how leaders learn,

master the habits of the world's most successful people, of which he is absolutely one of them. And today was just awesome. This is one I probably don't need to ask you all to share. I think it was probably shared about 40 minutes ago already when we just got going. But again, grateful for the time today, David, and everybody else, God bless you you and max out your life.