THE ED MYLETT SHOW - How To Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control | Ed Mylett

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

The Real Test of Your Character Is Not in Calm Moments, It Is in Conflict. In this mashup episode, I bring together three of the most powerful voices on communication and human behavior I have ever had on the show: Jefferson Fisher, Chuck Wisner, and Charles Duhigg. What we unpack in this conversation can literally change your marriage, your leadership, your parenting, and your business. Because the truth is this: most people do not lose opportunities because they lack talent. They lose them because they lose control in crucial conversations. Jefferson breaks down why trying to win an argument often means losing something far more valuable. He shares practical language you can use in heated moments to de-escalate tension and maintain your authority without overpowering someone else. Chuck goes deeper into the emotional layers of conflict and explains how most disagreements are not about the surface issue at all. They are about identity, safety, and being heard. When you understand that, you stop reacting and start leading. Charles Duhigg takes us into the science of conversations. He explains how high conflict exchanges are often driven by unseen scripts running in the background of our minds. When you learn to identify those patterns, you gain leverage. You stop being hijacked by emotion and start asking better questions. And when you ask better questions, you get better outcomes. What I love about this mashup is that it is not theory. It is tactical. You are going to hear exact phrases, exact strategies, and exact mindset shifts that allow you to stay calm when someone else is not. If you want to become more influential, more respected, and more effective in every area of your life, you must master the ability to handle high conflict conversations without losing yourself in the process. This is about control. Not controlling other people. Controlling you. Key Takeaways: Why trying to win an argument usually costs you influence The power of saying less and listening more in heated moments How to respond without escalating tension The hidden emotional drivers underneath most conflicts Practical phrases that instantly lower defensiveness How to maintain authority without overpowering someone Why calm energy is the ultimate competitive advantage in communication If you can stay composed when others lose control, you separate yourself instantly. The world is full of loud voices. The leaders are the ones who remain steady. Also don’t miss out on MAXOUT2026: Once a year, I open my home for an intimate one-day experience unlike anything else I do. This year, I’m making it even smaller, just 15 to 18 people. Together, we’ll dive deep into the exact strategies I use to plan, visualize, and design the best year of my life and yours. If you’re ready to Max Out your future, join me at ⁠Maxout2026.com⁠ for a life-changing day you’ll never forget. ⁠👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ←  ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FACEBOOK⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LINKEDIN⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WEBSITE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's never too early to plan your summer story in Europe with WestJet, from rolling countryside to cobblestone streets. Begin your next chapter. Book your seat at westjet.com or call your travel agent. WestJet, where your story takes off. This is the Edmiler's show. Hey, everyone, welcome to my weekend special. I hope you enjoy the show.

Be sure to follow the Edmilet show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. You'll never miss an episode that way. Here's our first guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I try to make it a practice not to have a lot of attorneys on the show. It's just sort of a rule of thumb. I'm just kidding to all my attorney listeners.

But in this case, this man's work is so good. And I mean this. I sought him out. I like when I see a relatively new face on the scene that is doing work that is not like everybody else's, that it's his own. And then I believe his work can dramatically impact your life from a, productivity standpoint, a peace of mind standpoint, an influence standpoint. And he's got a book out right now called The Next Conversation, Argue less, talk more. And I consider him, and I don't say this often,

to be a communication expert. And you will see that reveal itself throughout the next hour. You are going to learn so much and take so many notes today from Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, welcome to the show, finally, brother. And thank you so much for having me. I'm truly honored to be here. It's a pinch me moment. Great to meet you, dude. Yeah, likewise. I have to tell you, my two kids, my son's professional golfer, my daughter's a junior in college,

and I sort of had three things I wanted them to leave my house with when they were little. I wanted them to leave with their faith, because in their sort of their morals and ethics and values, I wanted them to leave with a bunch of self-confidence, which I think under that, if you get confidence, you'll work hard. But the third thing that surprises most people is I wanted them to leave me with world-class ability to communicate. I believe it's a separator in our world today.

And what you teach and the way you teach it is as good as I've ever seen it before, brother. And so I kind of want to get into this. The book's awesome, by the way. I read it in a lot of day and a half. It's awesome. My note version of it, by the way. But let's just start out kind of like with argument stuff. Okay.

You're an attorney by trade. First off, are you still practicing? That's A. And then inside that answer, kind of one of the big rules of the book is never went an argument, but I'm like, isn't that sort of the job of an attorney? So help me navigate those two things at once. Yeah. Well, one is I am still practicing. I am slowly learning how to transition out of that. I have a wonderful team. I'm able to delegate a lot of my cases. But right now, I'm almost more of a leverage chip in settlements. It's kind of this weird thing

where jurors know me. And so judges and court staff know my content. And so, Being involved is also advantageous in certain ways, but slowly learning to develop and be in this space like we were talking about. So it's getting there. Second of all, what do attorneys do? You're supposed to win every argument. You're an attorney?

Oh, you must win a lot of arguments. It's an absolute lie, and I'll tell you why. You may get to choose your client. Do I sign this person up? Do I not send this person up? But you don't get to choose your facts. You don't get to choose the law. You don't get to choose the evidence.

And so what you have to do is it's really more about giving the facts a voice. You're being an advocate for your client's story, for their position, for their perspective of how something happened. And so is the other side doing the same thing. I don't get to choose the facts to evidence. Instead, what I have to do is advocate and then it is up to the judge to apply that law to the evidence for the jury to determine. So to say we win arguments, it's just not true. A lot of the times the law is what does it for us. You just follow what the law says. You might be on the good side of it and the losing. side of it, so to speak, but it's not a win-loss thing.

What about with another human being? Why would you write a book about communication and argue less, talk more, but then really rule one is don't win? Is that more of a mindset thing? Is that what you mean when I approach a conversation with somebody? Or is that you literally mean that? Don't try to win an argument. I literally mean that.

If you go into always just wanting to win the argument, you will lose something else that is far more valuable every time. When I'm arguing in front of a judge and the other side's arguing, again, there's case law, there's a statute, there's a law that is applying to this. And they just, I might have more precedent than the other person and they can't compete against that. It doesn't mean that their argument wasn't any better. But you get into, especially in the courtroom, the ceiling of, well, I have to win a lot of trials. Listen, if you haven't lost trials, you haven't tried enough trials. That's just the way it goes.

If you want to spot somebody who's inexperienced, they haven't lost. enough. But the mindset to it is much more impactful in every listener's world right now, that if you find that every book you read, every blog that you see is something that how to win every argument is lying to you because what you're going to do when you have that mentality is you're going to lose the relationship. You're going to lose their respect. They're going to close themselves off from you. You're going to be less approachable. You're going to lose quality of your reputation if all you seek to do is win every argument. What if you're with someone who does try to do that?

So let's start out. His content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually real phraseology, real words, where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, friend, boss, and personally supervise. but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense.

It's almost like they're always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestles the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a conversation? You know what I mean when I say that? That you have people in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not, they're in charge, you're not, they're picking the restaurant, you're not. Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic? I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize. Let's split the dynamic too.

Let's say if it's one on one, much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity, most likely, to this facade. If it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person's trying to establish the pecking order, The other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. Let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant. Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over,

meaning you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat, if we call it, water off a duck's back, where anything that somebody says, you can just say, okay, noted. I got it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask. This ability to kind of be in the pocket in your communication. The temptation is we want to compete with them.

Oh, you just went skydiving? Oh, that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you know, Ed, it's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop, how many experiences they can share. But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity

than it does really about any kind of true substance. Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are, are very confident in the communication, the conversation, typically say much less. You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true conversation of what's happening. They have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet. And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So insecurities are very loud.

Confidence is very quiet. You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said, actually, great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leader. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader, correct? Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leaders, you know,

leader has to say, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to correct and drive traffic and go, go, go. The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insure people feel like they have to prove. They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the best leaders have a calm energy. energy about them. When they're on the floor of whatever is happening, instead of this erratic, you know, what's going on? Okay, we need to do this. And they start shouting and getting mad and

yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening next? Instead of the blame, it's where we're moving forward. So driving the conversation in a way that sets authority, people are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees, supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor.

Brother, so good. You buy the way, you exhibit that, by the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly. It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on.

Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And so it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts, and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting, when you write your copy, is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words,

saying the same thing other people take more words to do. do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch communicators, there are fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting. I want to make sure everybody gets the book too, because we're going into a lot of stuff. It's the next conversation, argue less, talk more. What if you're with somebody who, I used it earlier, but I want to go a little bit deeper, they pick on you. They kind of gnaw at you a little bit. You know, everything is almost passive aggressive in the way they say things. And you find yourself almost being put down subtly when you communicate with this person. And I find this an awful lot lately with couples that are friends of mine. Married couples,

there's this subtle dynamic where they both are a little bit passive aggressive with one another and the way they communicate. And I feel empathy for the one that I think is the one receiving most to the aggression. Is there something you can do when you feel like someone's communicating with you that way? Is there a phraseology or a strategy for that? Let's separate in two different categories. So one, let's say, is kind of this more just passive aggressive bucket. The other is, let's ramp it up to somebody being a little bit more overtly disrespectful, rude. So in this first bucket, this passive aggressive, these are people that most likely just have grown up that way. This is what they saw, mirrored conversation and arguments throughout their life, and they don't know how to express

that kind of thing. So when they slide in that negative comment that you know there's something to that, a simple question of like, should I read into that? Or is there more to that? Or, and this goes for Chris Foss, a dear friend, and I love his question is, sounds like you have a reason for saying that. I love that phrase. I also love, sounds like there's more to that. So anytime you can just quickly ask, sounds like there's more to that, or ask them, should I read into that? That tends to draw out the passive aggressiveness because they're not expecting you to kind of call them to the floor. On the flip side, if somebody is saying more aggressive things towards you, my recommendation is begin your question with, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound rude?

Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to hurt my feelings? Did you say that to offend me? When you say, did you mean, it is twofold. One is giving them the grace of perhaps they said it in a way they did not mean, and it's going to allow them to fix it. Like, at least with me and my wife, if we're texting and something seems like it's off, instead of it saying, you know, why are you being so short? What's wrong? Yeah, yeah.

Ask the question, did you mean for that to sound short? Instantly, almost every time, my, you know, It is like the, oh, no, no, no, no, sorry, I'm picking up the kids or, you know, I was checking out the grocery store, I getting gas. You know, you get that, that K or okay, and you're like, oh, okay, I guess they hate me right now. All right, like, I guess they're in a mood. And then you naturally get in the mood. And then you respond defensively, which causes them to respond offensively. And now you're convinced, you convince yourself you're under attack.

So it's this feedback loop that's not helpful to you. So when you begin what did you mean, it's a great way to set somebody. to one, give them that grace of fixing it, but two, it's calling attention to what they were wanting to do. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? It is, or did you mean for that to sound rude? Like, that is a very quick way to address it out in the open and if they're going to double down on it or not. Will you do that in reverse?

By the way, this is so good. Will you do that in reverse if you feel that what you've said has been misinterpreted? In other words, if you're going to do that. If you feel like you're, I do this better in business than I do personal life. To be honest with you're in personal life, I think I just let everything out the window that I know that are tools, which is so stupid. When it comes to business, I'm pretty good at this with friends and family. I devolve into the most emotionally immature person sometimes. But so let's say we have gone back and forth and maybe I've said something the other way that they're hurt by.

Will you slow a conversation down, for example, and say something like, what did you hear me say? How will you handle that if the person is now coming back at you for something they believe you've said that's passive aggressive or demeaning or rude? Awesome question. This happens all the time, especially in relationships, but I'd say even work too. When somebody tells you something, you've been in that situation where somebody is going, that's not what you said. You said this. And they kind of give a voice that doesn't even sound like your voice and gives a intonation. And you're like, I didn't even say it like that.

And all of a sudden now you're going, that's not. what I said. I didn't say it like that. You're just pushing what you thought you conveyed. And nine times I have 10, it is inaccurate because what is said is not always what's received. So instead of this, that's not what I said. You are going to ask the question, what did you hear? What did you hear? Because now it's not about what I am putting out. I am now getting curious of what you heard. because that's what matters. Anytime you had that kind of confrontation or that miscommunication instead of going, no, no, no, that's not what I said and kind of dismissing their whole experience or their perspective. By the way, it's very hard to the judge, it's like making your own movie, but not having an audience and going,

no, that's not how the movie goes. It's like nobody else has seen it. Only you're the one who thinks it's that way. So when you ask the question, what did you hear? And they explain it, that's when you say, that was not my. intent or I apologize for that impression or I would recommend is begin your sentence with I can see I can see how you'd feel that way I can see how that come on you know whenever you say you know I can see why you'd feel that way I can see why that would upset you so I just did this retreat at my house for four days where I had four different groups come in but one of the things I kept hearing at the retreat was hey man where'd you get that shirt and I'm like mizzen in Maine and I got to tell you picture anything you want to wear your go-to shirt you want to feel

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Factor doesn't ask you to meal prep or follow recipes. It just removes the entire problem. Two minutes, real food, bam, done. And so once I started eating healthier and using Factor, not only did I get a lot leaner, but I built more muscle. And the truth is, guys, I had more energy. And what I love about Factor is it's already made by chefs, designed by dieticians and delivered to your door.

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You know what? That makes sense. I can see that. That right there just goes, boom, it naturally takes down the aggression, this I have to win. You have to see it what I see. Anytime you can do that and use words of perspective, like view, perspective, see, that is going to help somebody go, oh, I feel heard. Oh, I feel understood. and by that they're going to be more receptive to the progress.

This is so good. You guys, just so you know when you're listening to this, the reason I wanted Jefferson on and the reason I think there should be more work in this topic is there's like only two or three people in the world that even discuss this stuff. And it may be in the top three most important things in life. To be able to communicate your point and to be able to overcome adversity in a conversation and a difficulty and maintain or extend relationships, this is not stuff that's taught in. yet it should be and what do you do gosh I I'm thinking of a situation I have with a friend who and I don't remember this being in the book so this will be a tough one they go they go silent on you

in other words the conversation is going a particular way and I don't know maybe it's me I do start to win and maybe they can feel it you know like and they just get quiet and I'm like are you still there? Hello? Is there something you would say to re-engage somebody who's given you the silent treatment or gone cold on you or every time a conversation gets to a certain point, they just disengaged completely? Or is your suggestion, don't let it get to that point by using some of these tactics and strategies? But is there a way when they disengage and go quiet that you can bring them back in? Yeah, here's where you go wrong is when somebody's giving you that silent treatment, there's this temptation that we started to say ugly things, like in romantic relationships, you'll start

to kind of say hurtful things in hopes that they bite back because all you're wanting is just to feel like you're not alone. So you're wanting that engagement. That happens sometimes in toxic relationships. Now, there are techniques that we can use to not get to that point. But let's say you're already there. Let's say you're already their distance from you. There's nothing you're going to be able to say, nothing you can do physically to just grab that person and say, back to the conversation highlights the importance of not letting it get to that point. But what I would recommend is if somebody is giving that distance, you give them that distance. So maybe it's a day.

Maybe it's two days because what it's highlighting for you is that you're wanting the conversation just to hear yourself. You have not been in the conversation to hear the other person. And when they are taking the time, sometimes that is needed. Sometimes there's wisdom in that of taking the time to think and disengage and give it a break. And if you need to, then what I would say is you message that person, you leave a voice smell for that person if they don't respond to your call and say, hey, I feel like we're miles away. It's important to use distances. I like using distances in conversation.

So you feel a mile away from me right now or I feel like we're 50 yards apart. Whenever you use distances, it's a great way of saying, hey, of saying you can feel that we're off instead of saying, hey, what's wrong with you? Or, hey, you seem off or you, what's going on? What's wrong? When you can use distances of, I feel like you're far away from me right now. At least I'd do that even in my life is a great way of not getting an offensive. But you call them, say, hey, I feel like we're far away. I'd really. like to get closer. I want to find a way that we can talk again or hey, just letting you know I'm here. I want to talk to you. I hope to hear from you soon. Any way that you just say, I am not trying to pressure this at all because you need to give them that space that continue to think about it. Or you can also say, hey, I think it was smart of you to give this conversation some space. You're right. I needed that. And we'll love to touch base with you soon. So you're giving them credit for their choice. So when you're saying, you know, almost like a, hey, good job,

thank you for trying to get us back on track. They will take that and go, okay, yeah, that was my intentional choice to help us rather than you saying, hey, you know what, you're not talking to me. If you don't want talking to me, that's fine. That kind of stuff is going to further pull them apart. So good, Jefferson. When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm, it's getting away from me. Let's say that. That could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend. You name it.

I feel like in my case most of the time, it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in Rule 1, number six, is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant, even of your pace in the way that you communicate, even on the show today and even in your content. You do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content. from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that like tonality and pacing. Yeah, let's talk about that in a conversation because with my, when emotions run high oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my, my intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean? Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. Any time you are getting that fight or flight,

and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things, and that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're either nervous, same thing when you're really mad,

you might stammer, and you might go like, no, no, no, that's not, and you're having trouble getting words out. because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination, and I'm just offering them up to the wolves,

is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they, ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going. Bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh, man, that's not what I mean.

And you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference if you were to ask me if you said, hey Jefferson, how's your day? And I said, good. It was real good. I mean, it was really good. Thanks. Versus, hey, Jefferson, how's your day? And I said, it was good. It was a good day. Like you can just hear the difference in which one listen to the question. question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged

or heard. Same thing with, that's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're at work and all of a sudden you go, what's wrong? What happened? What's going on? And you, all you're sensing and telling you the person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath and then you're saying, all right, what happened? Give it to me. Like people are looking like we so for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the face of a conversation. So where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And what's like going to do is keep your analytical side engaged into where you do not allow yourself emotionally to get emotionally flooded. And the second benefit is neither does the other person, because now you are also injecting the time.

enforcing them slow down. Very short intermission here, folks. I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far. Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Now on to our next guest. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. You know, today was a very important episode for me in terms of scheduling this today

because I think it's such an important topic for a couple reasons. Number one, one of my great concerns in our culture right now is the way we talk with one another, the way we have conversations. It just seems to me over the last 20, 30 years in our culture, we've lost the ability to have a conversation with somebody that we might not agree with in a productive way. And I'm sure you all agree with me as well. It's become very difficult in our times to dialogue with somebody

that you might have a disagreement with or to have a difficult conversation with. The art and science of learning to have a conversation is one of the most important skills you can have in life. Even with my kids, one of the things I hope they leave our home with is the ability to communicate, the ability to have a conversation with somebody. And it is a skill. And there are insights in how to do it better.

And I just feel like it could change our world if we talk to one another better. And I think you'd agree with me, too, whether it would be your personal relationships, a political discussion, a religious discussion, as a leader in your company, having a conversation about creating ideas or a new direction, whatever it might be, learning to be a better conversationalist. And I have the perfect guest. His name is Chuck Wisner. Chuck's got a book out right now called The Art of Conscious Conversations, Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact.

And I'm really excited to get into this topic. So Chuck, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It really is for me. You know, a lot of times, of all these people on my show that have these huge followings or guests, you know, that have major notoriety. And I've always found that oftentimes it's the topics on my show that really move people. and more and more people are concerned about the way we talk with one another.

And so I want to get right into it. How do you talk to somebody if it's a difficult conversation? One of the things I saw that you said is you ask in your writing, do your patterns of judging others reflect behaviors you don't like or want to recognize or won't recognize about yourself? So when we're in a difficult conversation with somebody, you know, maybe we disagree with them. I want to go to the hard stuff first.

Like I'm a Republican and someone's a Democrat or I'm a Democrat and someone's a Republican. and something like that, you know, these hard conversations, what are some of the keys in being better at doing it so it's actually a productive experience? There are definitely keys that we're going to talk about. And it's also important to know that when you're in a difficult conversation, both parties have to be willing to start with truth. And if we can't have a foundation of truth, then you're going to have a very, the conversation will remain difficult.

There's opinions and there's facts and there's emotions. And we get all of those mixed up, right? And they all get discombobble and jumbled up in our brain. But if we realize that my opinion is just my opinion and it's not the truth, then we can slowly, we can say, okay, what's driving my opinion? And we sort of can open our hand and go, this is why I'm thinking how I'm thinking. This is what my standards are. There's four archetypal questions in the book.

This is what I'm worried about. This is my concern. here's what I'd like. We can start to just open our hands and say, okay, I have an opinion. Let's dance with that. Let's see what we can learn from each other. That's a very different conversation with fists than fists coming at each other. Yeah, you also say in the book that I've learned to do this myself is to fall in love with

asking questions. Right. You're talking with somebody, whether you're a business leader and trying to create change in your company or whether you're in an argument with a spouse or disagreement or you've got to talk about something different. Like I've used, I've used politics as an example because it's the big one, right? Right. Like they're good, we're bad. I'm right. You're wrong. And the idea of making statements all the time and telling stories as opposed to asking questions. Right, right. And the idea of whether I'm doing it to myself and asking myself, what's driving my opinion, what's driving my

judgment and why am I so hooked on the thing, right? We can also, the questions help us, like each question can help us open someone else's hand because we can ask, well, what do you really want? What do you desire here? What do you want out of this? What are your standards for measuring this opinion that you have? So our questions can literally help other people unlock and unfist, right?

Yeah. But we aren't trained to ask questions. We're trained to have answers. That's one of the major dilemmas. And then we get into school and we're rewarded for race. our hand and then we get into business and we're rewarded for being the smartest person in the room right right and that's a counter to the the opposite effect is asking questions well this notion of raising your hand was my next thing so you're reading my mind and i think one of the art forms of

being a great conversationalist is actually the art of listening and that's why questions matter so much and you're precisely right in school the teacher's still talking and asking the question we're taught, we're rewarded. Raise your hand while they're still talking. And what that does to me, I want you to speak to this. To me, what that does to me is it means I'm really not listening to what you're saying. I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say back to you in my answer or my judgment or my assessment about you. Most people are already raising their hand metaphorically when most other people are still talking and they wonder, why am I not connecting with this person? Why can't we find common ground? Because while they're talking, you've got your

hand raised already. I got the answer. I know the truth. I know the truth. I want to say something and rather finishing and letting them finish their statement. Yeah. So our brain is spinning our answer. And so there's no space actually to absorb what's coming at us from the other person. Right.

And part of that, actually the main reason that is we get addicted to our position. Our ego and our identity gets addicted to, I believe this. And if I believe this is true, then that defines who I am. And that is often why we enter with fists or why we enter, you know, defensively, you know, and can't just say, okay, I do have an opinion.

I'm going to set that aside and I'm going to see if I can explore really what's driving this other person's thinking. That was a great conversation. And if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow the Ed Milet show on Apple and Spotify. Links are in the show notes. Here's an excerpt I did with our next guest. Hey, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm honored to have this man here for the second time.

The first time he was on the show, I sought him out saying, please come on the show because his book had made such an impact on me. And now he's got a new book out, by the way, before I introduced him called Super Communicators, How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And it's a topic, as you all know, that I am fascinated by because I talk a lot about it on the show, except he's way more qualified than me.

And the reason he's way more qualified than me is this guy is a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. He's a New York Times best-selling author. And he's a renowned expert on Habbaugh. and also now after reading his work he's an expert on communication so Charles Deweig welcome back to the show thank you Ed for having me on this is such a treat for me yeah I love you brother you're gonna listen to a big brain today everybody on a topic that you need to know more about I gotta tell you why I love your book so much what we're just talking about kids off camera yeah there's a few things I

want my kids to have left my house with one I wanted to have some faith which is their morals and ethics I want them to have some work ethic self-confidence and if I could give him a fourth thing it would be the ability to be an out standing communicator. And I just think it's one of the things that is the most important elements of life. I'm sure you agree. I think that's absolutely right. And I think the things that you mentioned before that are really important. Because if you, you could be a great communicator. And if you don't have values, if you don't have discipline, then it's not necessarily going to get you anyplace. But the difference between people who have those first three things and then don't

know how to communicate is that they stall out at some point, right? They like, they have trouble in their marriage. They have trouble like communicating with their spouse or their partner. They It's oftentimes stall out at work because the thing that made them successful at work, once you become a manager, it's not just doing that. It's about helping other people learn how to do that. And also, there's a huge amount of self-discovery that comes from conversation, right? Like, when I talk to you and you talk to me, we learn things about ourselves through what we say. And it takes someone talented, a super communicator, to draw that out, to know how to make the space for. for that.

That's interesting. You learn about yourself too. I didn't think about it that way, but you're right. You know, I almost feel like after I was reading your book, and by the way, everybody, it is outstanding. This man does not write average books. He just doesn't, and he sells a lot of them for a reason. And I almost feel like after reading it, I think I thought this before, but almost your

ability to communicate will be the cap on your life to some extent. It's the cap on your, the intimacy level in your relationship, for example, to some extent is limited or enhanced by your ability to communicate nonverbal cues, verbal cues, your ability to lead and move people in business, your family environment, friendships. I mean, the cap on your success level in those areas is almost directly correlated to communication. I absolutely. So my father passed away about six years ago and I went to his funeral and there were so

many more people there. There were people that like, I hardly remembered like people. I was so surprised and I was talking to them and I was like, you know, like thank you for coming and they would all say the same thing they'd say like I loved talking to your dad right that's why they showed up is because they had they had this relation they had a connection with them do you think it's because of i think one thing human beings have charles is you're always making people feel something yeah yet i think most people are oblivious to that fact they're feeling something from you in a moment your interest level your energy your frequency your

trustworthiness your ability to elevate them so do you think with your dad for example it wasn't just you know talking with him but is how he made other people feel that's exactly what it was so so sometimes when people ask me like who how do you define a super communicator right the easiest answer is to say okay think of the person you would call if you were having a bad day right like you're having terrible day you there's someone you call you know they're going to make you feel better like like who would that person be for you it would have been my dad okay sure before he passed away that was it came right to me call my dad and my guess is that if I met your dad what I would see is he's not the funniest

person in your life. He's not the most charismatic person in your life, but what he did is he proved to you that he was listening to you, that he heard what you said. And then he he reciprocated your vulnerability or your joy or your sadness. He shared it with you. And as a result, you walked away feeling like what I'm experiencing, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling. This is like this is profound and this is real. You're right. And it's been validated. And you don't need your dad to validate. it like it's still real to you but to have someone else feel like have them feel like they genuinely want to understand you that's right that feels wonderful in fact it's hardwired into our brain to feel wonderful yeah i just did this and i did a podcast on it so i'll ask you this how much of communication do you think is actually the ability to listen correctly a huge amount a huge amount so and and and let me say that that there's this thing about listening which is when i'm talking whatever you're doing I'm probably not going to pay attention to it. Because it's so cognitively intense to try and speak that even though I'm going to make eye contact with you and I'm going to kind of notice if you're frowning or smiling or whatever it is, I'm really not going to pick up on the signals you're sending me.

So listening is not just hearing what the person is saying. It's what you do after they finish talking. Because if you do this thing where you prove to me that you've been listening. And in the psychology literature, this is actually referred to as looping for understanding. Okay. That particularly if you have a conflict with someone, the best way to sort of bring the tension down is ask a question. Repeat back what you hear the person says in your own words. And then step number three, which is the one we usually forget, is ask them if you got it right.

And if I do that, so when you think about it, so I'm listening to you, I have to listen closely to you because I need to, I'm thinking I got to repeat back what you're saying in my own words. I got to process it. But most importantly, you know that I've been listening. based on what I say after you're done speaking. And that's really what active listening is. It's about not just passively receiving. It's about amplifying. Very good.

That is really good. It's, I mean, and the thing is it's so easy to do. Like, once I learned this, like, I find myself doing it all the time without even realizing it. Like, I'll be like, what I hear you saying is, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. And, like, it just feels so natural. It feels so good to have somebody say that back to you. Right? Because you do get the feeling with most people.

I think they do two things. One, they're really more concerned with what they're about to say back to you. Yes. And two, I call them verbal nudges where they're interrupting you too often or a huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, which you think is a form of agreement, but I think to some extent, sometimes you're almost saying, I got it. Okay, can I say something now? Yeah.

That's exactly right. And you're almost nudging them to finish rather than letting them finish. That's the, I think that's exactly true. And I think that part of this is understanding what the goal of a conversation is. Okay. So it's easy to go into a conversation and think the goal. is to convince this person I'm right or maybe even the goal is just to come to agreement on something that's wrong the goal of a conversation is simply to

understand what the other person is trying to tell you so that means that if I'm listening to you and you say something that I think is crazy you wouldn't say this but lizard people run the world or whatever it is if I I'm not gonna agree with you and I'm probably not gonna convince you that you're wrong but as long as I understand how you see the world as long as I ask you a question It's known as a deep question where I say like why is this important like what is it about this that seems really meaningful and important to you You're gonna tell me something about who you are. I'm gonna repeat back What you've told me about like I care about lizard people because I really think the elites of this world

Are like are like having this pernacious effect on on the working class I'm gonna repeat that back to you I'm gonna ask you if I got it right I'm not gonna agree with you and you're not gonna agree with me But simply understanding each other means we have succeeded and it's It feels good, right? It does. I'm just thinking of like political discourse, you know, like just really understand where they're coming from.

I'm not going to win this. I have to tell you, your work's so good because it's actually the part of conversations. I think it's why I have a podcast. I really enjoy not only understanding what somebody's saying, but also like why they're saying it. What's this come from? I'm in an Uber. I basically interview almost every every driver ever had, right?

But I love that by the end of a good 20 or 30 minute ride, I find out, you know, where these belief systems stem from yeah too i mean i was in one recently where this guy was way right like way way right and uh no matter what you believe politically but i mean i was like whoa and i'm like trying to understand and trying to understand and i've also had this conversation with someone who's way left but it ended up that at the end i found out that he had come from a communist country he had actually had family that were murdered by communists and it whether i agreed with him or not that's not the point of this show but i actually had a much deeper understanding of the basis from which he's formed these opinions and I really felt connected with this person. Absolutely. So you're right. Okay, so let me ask you

a question if you don't mind. Sure. So when you're in that Uber, when you're having that, what's the second or third question you ask? Because you could be like, hey, you know, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Europe. Like, what are you asking next to get you from the shallow to the deep? Oh, that's a really good question. I usually ask them, I open them up a little bit. I say, give me your craziest story. Oh, interesting. So I actually ask them to give me one of their crazy ride stories. I'm actually fascinated by that. So it kind of opens them up. And and they get loose. I didn't do it tactically, but I found that like, well, you're kidding me. That did that. And then typically for me, just because I'm most intrigued by it, I love to know

about people's families. And I actually also think people love to talk about their families, typically, too. So usually I'll ask them, are you married? Do you have children? And I know that sounds like basic stuff. But I find for me that that's an entree into learning an awful lot about these folks. What I love about that is that what, and I think you got this by intuition is, is that, so these deep If we ask people deep questions, deep questions are things that ask us about our values, our beliefs, or our experiences. So what's the craziest ride you've ever given someone is asking this guy about his experiences? Very good. Right?

Tell me about your kids. Like, what are your kids like? Is it at some point, he could just be like, I have two kids. But at some point, you're probably going to say like, oh, you know, do they like school? What are they like? Where do they go to school? Are you worried about their future? You're going to ask something that's going to get him to reveal to you who he really is.

You're right. And by the way, I always look at people like, this is an overall belief system. This person's a gift I want to open them up. It's really how I look at them. And in this guy's case, I love that. I just got to tell you, in this guy's case really quick, just an interjection, this dude was amazing. It turns out that the reason he's driving Uber is he has a daughter at Harvard and a son at Stanford, right? And he's putting them through school.

And if you knew where this man came from, it was remarkable. And the pride he had in his children and his wife that they had raised. them and they were there and it became this like really beautiful conversation where not only did i admire i was like whoa this is incredible the life you've built the sacrifice you're making and he had a full-time day job droid and it became kind of this conversation we talked about our children and by the time i was done i actually really had a connection with this man that i probably won't i'm talking about them on my podcast yeah right so let me ask you this okay the details of the work guys we're going to get into now there are really three conversation types okay i didn't know there

were. I was kind of oblivious to this, but I think just this alone would enlighten people so they know which conversation they're in and they can identify. So share some of that. This is a big discovery from the last decade. And we're kind of living through this golden age of understanding communication for the first time in a new way. And what the first thing that researchers have found is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing. We're talking about my book or we're talking about your kids. But actually every conversation is made up, every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations. that ebb and flow.

And most of those different kinds of conversations fall into one or three buckets. There's a practical conversation where we're talking about plans or making decisions together or we're fixing problems. Politics is often this. There's an emotional conversation

where if I tell you how I'm feeling about something, I do not want you to fix it for me. I want you to acknowledge that you've heard it and I want you to tell me to sort of be vulnerable with me. And then there's a social conversation. And a social conversation is about how we relate to each other in society, how we think other people see us, how our identities,

right? How our identities shape how we see the world in different and interesting ways. And the key is, there's this thing known as the matching principle, which is, if I'm having an emotional conversation and you respond with a practical conversation, even though both of what we're saying is legit, we're not going to hear each other. That is outstanding. This happens at home, like, with my spouse all the time. I come home. I've had a tough day at work. I'm complaining about my boss. My wife says she solves the problem. She says, why don't she go and like take him out to lunch? You get to know each other better. And instead of being like, that's really good advice. I'm like, you don't understand. You're not listening to me. Very good, Charles. So if she matches me and then invites me to match her, then we're having the same kind of conversation. Then we can hear each other. You just explained 25 years of problems.

No, because I'm coming home to an emotional conversation and I'm not in one sometimes. What advice would you give to somebody who we were talking about socially. I just moved and you're asking about the move. And I said, you know, I kind of revert back to myself socially. And I think I would categorize myself. It would surprise most people listen to the show, but I'm very quiet and very shy. And I find a lot of public speakers are, by the way. A lot of entertainers privately are very, I'd call an introvert.

Yeah. You have any advice for an introvert as it comes to communication like this? So I think one of the things I heard you just say when you were talking about that Uber driver is you got into the car. Yeah. And he had one identity, which is right wing. Yeah. And you asked him some deep questions that were easy to ask. Like they didn't seem intimate.

And he started telling you about his other identities. And once he complicated himself, once he said like, look, I'm not just one thing. I'm three and four and five things. All of a sudden, it's easy to feel close to that person because some of those things he is, you are too. And so I think when it comes to introverts or when you move to a new place, like one of the things that I like to do is you meet someone at a party or a barbecue or whatever it is. And like I often ask them, you know, what do you do for a living?

And then I'll often say, you know, they say, I'm a lawyer and I say, you know, do you love practicing the law? Like, did you just, what made you decide to become a lawyer? Like when was the moment you decided to become a lawyer? What inevitably they say is something that tells me about their other identities, which is I became a lawyer because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the underdog. Or I became a lawyer because we were poor and I wanted to always have enough money. Or I became a lawyer because I love intellectual stimulation.

Like think of those three answers just told me so much about those different people. And at that point, I can say to them, I grew up poor too I understand what that's like And now suddenly we feel safe with each other I think This isn't necessarily true for introverts But when we're in new social situations

We were talking about how hard it is to make friends When you don't have friends in a place The thing that often stops us Is just a little mild anxiety You're right Oh I at least mild with me Yeah yeah And how are we gonna start the conversation

How are we gonna get out of the conversation How like Okay that's mine Okay That's my. And candidly, so I love that we're going there. I'm okay opening a conversation. How are you?

You know, for me, it's, how does this end? How does this end? I bet everybody driving or lists these rights like, no, that's something I would like to know more about. If I'm on the bus next to. I have the most awkward finishes of conversations of any dude you've ever met in your life. I'm like, okay, well, hey. And I usually end up the conversation with some sort of BS or something. You're like, I'm going to use the restroom.

Right, right, right. I don't know how to get away from you. I have to go refresh my glass, but I still have that full. So, okay, so actually, Daniel Gilbert at Harvard actually did an entire study trying to figure out how people end conversations. And do, does the other person want to end at the same time you do?

And what he found was two things. Number one, he found that you think I want you to end the conversation because I'm getting bored. And actually, I am enjoying this conversation. We do a difficult job of gauging the other person's interest in the conversation. Okay. But then sometimes we want to end the conversation.

And so this is this is what super communicators do. Okay. They forecast it without committing to it immediately. So they say something like, man, this is so interesting. I totally got to go freshen up my drink. But before I do, like let me ask you like X because oftentimes the end of the conversation feels hard because it feels awkward. Yes.

But if you've already set the table and you're like, you're like, I got to step away, but this is so fascinating. Let me ask you one more thing. Then when they're done answering the question, you're like, oh man, thank you so much. much and you just turn away that's not awkward I love that that's that's pre-framing the conclusion that's exactly right very good that's exactly right a lot of what you're saying I'm listening is it has to do with the questions you're asking I think a lot of people look at conversations or communication like what am I telling somebody what am I saying and I'm sure there's an element of that that we'll get to in a minute too but so far a lot of the things you've

been suggesting involve questions you're asking somebody and I have to say this to you I'm amazed how many people I talk to in social environments and business environments that don't ask any questions. I know. I know and I can't figure out I think that for some of them they're just not practiced at it and it is like that's the thing about super communication anyone can be a super communicator it's literally just a set of skills like you just have to practice the skills and make them into habits nobody's born knowing how to do this but I have the same it drives me crazy I ask question after question and then they answer and then they stop talking and they're waiting for my next question I'm like like does there any so here's the thing here's the thing that you're exactly right 50% if not more of a good conversation is asking good questions but then something happens there's a difference between a conversation and an interrogation right or an interview and this gets into what's known as emotional reciprocity an

emotional reciprocity is basically one of these strongest impulses that all humans have if somebody engages an emotional reciprocity we can't help but feel a little bit closer and a little bit more trusting of them. So emotional reciprocity says, if you say something vulnerable, and then I recognize, I acknowledge that vulnerability, but I also show that I can be vulnerable, then we're going to feel like we can trust each other.

And so, and that's about speaking. So that doesn't mean if you say, my dad passed away, I should be like, oh, I understand completely, because my aunt passed away 12 years ago. Like, that's stealing the spotlight from you, right? Okay. But if you say my dad passed away and I say, oh, man, I like, I know how hard that can be. Like, tell me about your dad.

What was he like? Oh, gosh, that was good. That's good. Right? And then, like, and then, and then what I'm signaling to you is, A, I'm interested in you. I want to hear from you. I want to understand you. But B, you learned something about me.

Mm-hmm. And if you're interested, you can, you can say, like, like, tell me how you know about this. Like, what happened? What about being, being the server first, serving the person? vulnerability. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a guy named Nick Appley at the University of Chicago who's in the book. And like Nick is so good at this. Every conversation I've ever had with him. He says something in the conversation near the start of the conversation that feels so intimate. And as a result, I'm just like, I love this guy. Like I just want to talk to him. And again, when I look at the transcripts, because I'm oftentimes talking to him for reporting. And when I read the transcript, it doesn't seem too intimate. It doesn't seem overly intimate. But he says things like, you know, you know, know hey nick how are you doing like instead of saying oh fine says something like you know it's great i like went to my son's soccer game this weekend it was and like we adopted these kids from Ethiopia and like just watching them now as these like strong young men like it was it was

a great weekend brother and then right and he's offered that up and at that point i'm like man i'll tell you all about myself let me tell you about me i think i also trust you more when you do that Absolutely. I think when someone's so surface all the time, and by the way, this applies for a lot of you that are in sales too. Yes. Being willing to be a little bit vulnerable, not always the expert, but a little bit vulnerable, a little bit transparent, a little bit revealing. I believe it's, well, I think it's just a better way to live, but it does bond and connect you. It makes you human. Oftentimes when you're in sales, people look at you like you're almost their adversary. Like, I can't trust this guy for this lady. But when you begin to show some vulnerability and some authenticity, I think that's when you start to break down. the barriers and I found that in my own life over and over trust is huge right I mean so so we have communication is humans superpower like it's the reason as a species we have been so successful is that we can talk to each other and we can build we can share knowledge we can build families and communities all of that is based on communication and communication over the millennia has been

hardwired into our brain and so as a result when when somebody communicates well with me I trust them because I literally have two million years of evolution in my head that says, trust the guy who it seems like wants to understand you and that is sharing with you. I agree. This is so good. This is probably going to go a little longer than normal guys. No, I love it. I really love this, right?

I just think, I hope those of you that are listening or watching understand the importance in your life, as I said earlier, of getting good at this because it's the cap on your bliss. It's the cap on your laughter. It's the cap on your intimacy. It's the cap on your influence and persuasion. Yeah, absolutely. What about difficult conversations? Yeah. Are those different in nature?

And are they, I mean, having to, you know, say, listen, your job performance isn't very good. Or I'm frustrated with you or, you know, something that's, you know, you're going into it. Gosh, I wish I didn't have to have this conversation, but I do. Yeah. Or sometimes they catch you off guard, right? We're like, I'm talking about one thing and all of a sudden I realize you're furious at me. Like I didn't pick up on that until just now. And so the answer is they abide by the same rules, but the fact that you're in conflict changes the context enormously.

Because we were just talking about trust, right? I can establish trust by sharing something about myself. But if you go into a conversation where there's conflict, trust is already out the window, right? Like you're, you are, your fight or flighters going off in your head like crazy. you can't trust someone easily just because like they ask you a question so so and this has been a focus of a lot of study how do we make conversations in conflict better and there's basically two things the first one is i mentioned this looping for understanding right asking a question repeating back what you heard and then and then asking if you got it right that's enormously powerful in conflict okay

because the first thing the first suspicion i have if you disagree with me and we're in conflict with each other other is you're waiting your turn to speak. You're not hearing what I'm saying, right? You're just waiting there and like, I'm going to tell you my piece and then you're going to just bulldoze over me and I'm going to bulldoze back. So if you interrupt that by proving you are listening, using looping for understanding to prove, I really want to understand what you're saying. Help me understand. I'm taking a huge amount of mistrust off the table. The second thing that often happens in conflict, and this happens a lot in marriages. This actually comes from marriage therapy and studies of marriage therapy is that it is natural when we feel threatened to want to control things. And the easiest

thing to control is the other person. So you tell me your thing and I'm like, no, no, no, you don't know the evidence. Let me show you the evidence. You say something and you're like, I'm not even going to listen to this. I try and control you. I try and tell you what you should believe, what you should feel. That's toxic, right? In a marriage, that is the thing that destroys marriage. The alternative is I have a need for control. You have a need for control. We feel threatened. Can we find things to control together?

So for instance, can we control the timing of this fight? Instead of having it at two in the morning, can we wait until it's 10 a.m. And we're both a little bit more rested. Can we control ourselves? Can I let you know, I'm going to take a second before I speak and I'm going to think about what you just said. Can I show you that I'm trying to control myself and invite you to control yourself? And the third thing is we can control the boundaries of the conflict itself.

So one of the most toxic patterns in marriages is this thing called kitchen sinking where we start arguing about like where we're going to go for New Year's. And then like five minutes later it's like and your mother hates me and you don't earn enough money and like why are you such a jerk all the time? Right. So a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. The healthy way to do that is to say we need to have a fight. like we have a disagreement on something.

Let's control the boundaries of it. We're talking about New Year's Eve. If my mother comes up and your money comes up, like we're just going to set it aside. That's another conversation, another day. But then when we're controlling these three things, we're controlling ourselves, we're controlling the environment,

and we're controlling the boundaries of the fight or the conflict. We're controlling those as partners. Right? We're on the same side of the table. We might not agree on the topic we're discussing right but you and I are partners now in controlling the right things in this fight instead of trying to control each other that's outstanding when you're talking about

relationships and family where my first off I've made those mistakes me too I'm a pretty good kitchen sinker you term it that way yeah and so I think I've gotten better at it I also think the longer with you you're with somebody you have more stuff in the sink and so it's even more important to avoid that and have that control of the parameters around the conversation right How long have you been married for? 26 years. Okay, so I'm coming up on 20.

And I'm sure this has happened to you, but tell me if I'm getting this wrong, which is there are these things. Literally, I can say two words, and I know the entire fight in my wife's head. Right? It's like, and sometimes I don't even mean to say them. I'm just like, I'm like, I'm like, well, you know, it's because like, I earn more money than you. And then I'm like, oh, nuts.

Like, I just stepped in it. Like, to kitchen sink it, all I had to say was literally, three words he brought the whole thing yeah and so the immediate thing i do is i'm like i'm like i'm sorry whoops yeah i did not mean to do that yeah like tell me what you're feeling because i want to i want to give you a chance but like you know what i've gotten better at that charles with my kids too of saying you know what i'm sorry let me take that right back whereas before i'd almost double down or they didn't really feel it that bad it'll it'll be brushed under and no sometimes you just have to in the moment go i'm let me yank that one back and not only are you connecting with them but think

about the modeling you're doing right your team you're doing right your teaching you're teaching them how to communicate with other people. Like, I'm absolutely certain your kids are going to copy that without even realizing it comes from dad. Yeah. You're making me think of young people when you say that. I want you to give you, can we teach this to young people? I'll tell you why I ask. Yeah.

I have great conversations with my kids. Bella, don't take this the wrong way, sweetheart, when you're listening to this. But lately with my daughter, I love doing kind of dates with my daughter and I. She's a sophomore in college. And I watch her with other people. She's quite the conversationalist. But with me, and she's not disinterested. said, but when we're talking, there's a lot of, yep, yeah, right, uh-huh. And at one point,

we were taking a walk on the beach over Christmas and I said, Bella, this is kind of a serve and volley type thing here. Like, I serve and you return the serve and then I hit the ball back to you and you hit it back to me to your point of ask me something. Right. You know, so it made me wonder, is there anything different? And maybe she's not even quite at that age I'm talking about, but if I have an eight and nine, a 10-year-old, I'm always blown away when I mean, a child who is a tremendous communicator makes eye contact, shakes your hand, Mr. Milet, how are you? What do you do? Like when they ask, I'm like, automatically what I think, these are great parents. Yes. I think immediately. These are tremendous parents. So is there anything with young people that

can, that these skills can be taught? Anything unique that you would say that goes with young people? Absolutely. So I think that there's two things. Let's talk about the older kids first, like your daughter's age. So I had a friend whose daughter just went to college and he had a conversation with her before he left, which I've now imitated and I love. He sat down with her and he was like, look, you're definitely going to call us when something important happens in your life. But if that's the only time you call, then by definition, you're not calling us that frequently.

Like, we're going to lose contact with each other. So what I want you to do is I want you to call me for the unimportant things. You had a bad day, but it's not a big deal. You ate something good for lunch. You're working on this paper and it's kind of interesting. You know, we don't have to talk for more than five or seven minutes. Right? But I want you to call me and tell me about the unimportant stuff because the important stuff will take care of itself. And so my son went off to boarding school.

He's at boarding school right now here in California. And it's his first year there. He's in 10th grade. And I told him this. He calls me every day. I actually talk more to this kid with him at boarding school than I did when he was at home. Yes. So for older kids, that's the thing is to say this is a priority.

like conversation is something none of us are born super communicators we can all learn how to do it this is a skill you should practice and it's because it's important for the younger kids it's a little bit harder right yes but i think for them this is where the deep questions become so powerful so my younger one same thing how is school today good would you learn nothing right like so and and so some of the advice is like to be like oh well you know did pirates show up today and you can do that a couple times but at some point if you ask them a question where where you're asking them to tell you who they are like like like like uh i know that you said that you like science more than you like math i'm just wondering like why like what is it was it about science like i mean is science important to you

like you told me you wanted to hang out with your friend and i'm just wondering like what is it what do you like about that friend like what is special to him yeah what's great about that is that first of all it's clearly not judgmental right whereas if I'm like what'd you learn today I'm kind of judging like good point yeah you better should have learned something today very good point but second of all I'm I'm matching him and I'm allowing him to set the stage it's not that he's playing on my ball court I'm saying to him tell me your ball court and that's powerful you do a lot of gestures when you talk oh yeah I don't know if you notice that well you're expressive in your face this is this may not even be in the book but I want to ask you about it

So you're expressive with your face. You use your hands. And I'm wondering if nonverbal cues are part of being a super communicator. Because I've had people say, I'm really excited to be here. I'm like, you should tell your face. You should email your face and let them know that you're excited to be here. So I think a lot of it is I'm reading things you're not saying when I talk to somebody as well. Yeah.

And I think that's exactly right. And to be super communicator, you don't have to have nonverbal, right? Because there's people who like on the phone are fantastic. If you're good at one thing, you're usually good at it. everything but but similarly with you like you you clearly should telegraph nonverbally or non-linguistically you telegraph your interest you telegraph what you're hearing and that's very very powerful and there's a kind of a science behind it and we've learned a lot of it from looking at laughter so the interesting thing about laughter is studies show that about 80% of the time when all of us laugh it is not in response

to something funny okay right so we've laughed a couple of times in this in this interview but I haven't said anything that funny right you just laughed yeah I'm not that funny a guy okay so what happens when we laugh what a laugh actually is is it's saying to the other person I want to connect with you I'm going to show you that I want to connect with you and then when they laugh back and 90% of the time when I laugh the person I'm talking to will laugh back they're saying I want to connect back that's tremendous so that's a non-linguistic communication and what I love is actually NASA for a time I was going to ask you this yeah so So they were trying to figure out how to find emotionally intelligent astronauts. Yeah, you're going to do.

And like the problem is everyone who applies to be an astronaut, if you make it to the final stages, you're like a golden boy or girl, right? A thousand percent. Yeah, you know how to answer every question. You practiced everything. And they're like, we can't figure out who's actually emotionally intelligent and who fakes it really, really well. But when they're in space on a six-month mission, the difference is going to matter a lot. Huge. So this one psychologist, he started realizing.

if I pay attention to how people laugh. Most importantly, do they match my laughter? So he would come into a room and he would accidentally spill papers accidentally. He actually did it on purpose. And then he would laugh uproariously and he would watch what that candidate would do. Some candidates would be like,

because you know you're supposed to laugh, right? And then other people would be like, let me help you with that. The astronauts who matched him, not just on laughter, but he would tell a sad story and see if the other person, if the other person empathize, if they engaged in reciprocity, if they asked them questions about it. So that's non-linguistic, but it tells us whether that person wants to connect.

And that's ultimately, I think when I'm making gestures, I'm inviting you to, I'm inviting you in, right? I'm saying, like, here I am, like, I want you to see what I'm seeing. I hope what everybody's getting out of this is like, these are skills that. can be learned. There's an art and a science to this. You said, I'm glad you asked, I was going to ask you about the NASA thing. You also said emotional intelligence. So I just feel like that's at the root of what we're talking about here. So how big of a component is just being sort of, I think also, let me say this. So emotionally aware is another word that I would use as well. Emotionally aware is a part of having emotional intelligence. Do you agree with that?

Absolutely. So this phrase emotional intelligence is actually kind of misnomer because it makes us think it's like IQ right we're either born with it or you're not but it's not emotional intelligence is emotional awareness if I say to myself and I train myself to say a priority is noticing when someone else is feeling something and matching that and and giving them the space for that that is emotional intelligence that's the thing that's going to make make it make it feel like you understand them that you can empathize with them and it's it's it's not hard right it's just about making it a priority. Yeah. There's a there's in the book a lot of examples of that. There's actually just great stories in the book. Give me one because I want them to get the book so I don't want

to do the whole book, but give me one story from the book that's sort of illustrative of just you thought one of the more interesting stories in the book. So they have an understanding because what's great about the way Charles writes at this book is that there's like points and tactics and then I like the story to sort of reinforce it that may and I for me facts tell stories sell. I remember stories and so I like the way that you weave these into the work and that's why there's so many stories in there is because it's there's so much easier to remember so one of my favorite stories is is early in the book it's about Jim Lawler the CIA agent so good so Jim Jim is this guy who I've talked to a number of times he he's he's awesome he

he became a CIA officer when he was in his 30s and he wanted this so bad he like he struggled for like he just ran after this so hard it was like he was desperate to be CIA officer they accept him him they send him off to training and then they send him to Europe to recruit foreign assets and he finds out he's the worst recruiter on earth like literally he would go to like parties and he's in like he couldn't make conversation he would like try and buddy up with people and they're like you're a spy aren't you you're trying to get me to be a spy they're like I'm gonna report you to the to the authorities you're gonna get deported so he's like freaking out because he's like I'm terrible at this and then someone in his in his office says look there's this woman coming into town she's from the Middle East she worked for the foreign ministry why don't you get to know her a little bit and see if there's anything there so he bumps into her to restaurant the next day right bumps okay and he introduces himself as an oil speculator strikes up a conversation takes her to lunch the next day they start sight seeing together he sort of develops a little bit of a relationship he goes and he says to his boss

i think i'm recruiting this woman i think she's going to be an asset for us and then he and his boss is like that's fantastic i'm glad to hear it he goes he has dinner with this woman fatma And he says, I'm not an oil speculator. I work for the CIA. Now, Fatma had been telling him, she comes from a, he never told me which nation, but it's pretty obvious which one it is. She comes from a nation that recently had a religious theocracy revolution. And so the fundamentalists have all taken over, and she hates it. She's like, she's like, they're making women wear hijabs.

They're telling us we can't go to college. I want to fight this, but I don't know how. And so Jim Lawler says to her, the most practical thing possible. He's like, we want the same thing you do. Like, we want to free the people of your country. We want to empower women. Work for me for the CIA. And she grabs a table and starts shaking her head.

And she starts crying. And she goes, no, no, I'm not going to do it. And just has a meltdown. And she says, they kill people in my country for doing this. I cannot believe that you have put me at risk simply by striking up a friendship. Because if they ever find out you're in the CIA, they're going to think. think I'm in the CIA and she just she just bolts and Lala's like I'm terrible at this like I'm such a bad recruiter so he goes back to his boss and he tells him what happened his boss is like dude

I already told Washington DC you recruited her as a spy like like you're going to get fired if you can't close the deal on this this is this is your last chance that's why we gave it to you so Jim spends all this time trying to figure out how do I what do I do and he he keeps on calling And eventually she picks up and he invites her to go to dinner, a couple nights before she's going to fly back home. And she says yes, because he says he's taken to an expensive restaurant. And he has a notebook full, full of ideas on how to convert her. And he knows none of them are going to work. Like, you cannot trick someone into taking a suicidal risk.

Right. Right. It's just not going to. So he goes to dinner and she's really down because she's like, you know, I came to, you know, I came to, you. Europe I thought I was going to learn something about how to how to be more myself or how to change the world and I'm just going home and I'm the same person and what he starts trying to do is cheer up he tells her little stories he reminisces about when they you know went sightseeing together and she just gets more and more glum and finally dessert comes and they're kind of by themselves

at the table and Jim thinks of himself like should I try to like recruit her again and he's like if I do that she's literally going to stand up and walk away. So what he decides to do is he decides like, this isn't going to work, I'm giving up, I'm just going to have a real conversation, I'm going to be honest. And he starts saying to her, look, I know how you feel because I feel exactly the same way. I like, I wanted this job my entire life and it turns out I'm terrible at it. I am so disappointed in myself. And I don't know how I'm going to go home and tell my dad that like I failed.

I got fired by the CIA and he talks this way now what he's doing obviously without even realizing it is he's matching her Right she was she was glum and he was trying to cheer up that's not matching yep He was matching her and she's she's listening to this and she starts crying and he's like I'm such a jerk and in the CIA you have to report every conversation so he's gonna have to write up a memo and he's like those guys are gonna fire me within seconds like they're just gonna laugh And he reaches over and he pats her arm and he's like I'm so I'm sorry, I did not mean to make you cry. I am sorry. And she says, no, no, I think I can do this.

Wow. And then, and he's so inexperienced. He actually, the first things out of his mouth is like, no, no, no, you don't have to do that. Like, you don't have to do that. Like, you don't have to do that. He was just trying to- He finally wasn't. Yeah, he finally wasn't trying to manipulate her.

And he's like, no, no, I don't want to put you at risk. You don't have to do it. And she says, no, no, what you want is important. I think we can do this together. So for the first time, she was able to hear him. She was able to hear all those things that he had said over weeks and weeks and weeks about helping the women of her country. She couldn't hear it until he matched her. Next day, she goes to a safe house.

She gets trained in covert communications and other stuff. She's the best source in the Middle East for the next 20 years. And Jim Lawler becomes one of the top recruiters in the entire CIA. He teaches that today. It's one of the best stories ever. I love that story. I want to pick it apart a little so people understand the dynamic in there. So when you say matching, was it that?

she wasn't an emotional conversation and he wasn't is that what you mean by that that's a huge part of it he was also vulnerable but he was also vulnerable so she was not only was she in an emotional conversation but he was listening to the type of emotion that she was transmitting right instead of saying like oh you shouldn't feel bad I'm gonna cheer you up who's saying like look you feel bad like let's just acknowledge that and that matching feels good because it feels like someone's hearing us I think it's a huge thing I don't ever like saying gender specific stuff because I don't believe it but I do think by and large, those two elements, women are better at naturally,

meaning I think they're more naturally vulnerable in a conversation than a man can be. And I don't even like saying this, but I think in general most people would agree with me. And then secondly, I think men try to fix things often, more often so that when there is an emotional conversation in you're in, we just want to fix it or solve the problem or be the savior

or be valuable or be important rather than just be with somebody and acknowledge their emotion. And it's not always men and women, right? Sure, it's not. It's definitely not, but it's more prevalent, I think. And I think what's happening there is we're falling back on what feels comfortable to us. Right. It is for sure.

So if you're saying something emotional and I get super practical and it pisses you off, it's not so much that like I actually think we should be practical. It's that I'm uncomfortable with emotion. There you go. And so I'm showing, I'm going back to my safe place. There you go. And actually, that safe place is emotional, right? Like the reason I'm trying to solve your problem is like it really bothers me that you're upset.

I don't know how to deal with the fact that you're upset. I want to make you feel better. I feel like that's my job and I feel like I'm letting you down and myself down. Like that is emotional, right? Right. I'm just I'm just disguising it as a practical conversation because that's my safe space. That's my pattern. That's how I hide.

Yeah. That's a zillion percent right. I told you we're going to go a bit long so we're going to. Absolutely. Okay. Let me ask you this. This is a hard one. And so.

I keep using the term nonverbal. I've used that. Let me couch it a little differently. Okay. Literally nonverbal. Okay. So types of communication that are not done verbally. Okay.

Meal. Mail, written, email, text, whatever. Yeah. I have found for me, if I'm transparent with people, I feel like I'm a pretty darn good verbal communicator. I've also found my friends that are hyperverbal people in general, again, another generality, aren't so good in the written word. And for some reason, when I'm a very darned.

write or text it comes across as harsh curt sometimes aloof I my writing style does not make the impact in text or email that my verbal style yes and I I'm really not very good at that so what about tips or keys on that so what's going on there so so it's interesting if we were having this conversation about a hundred years ago a little bit under 100 years ago when phones first became popular what we would be talking about and there were all these articles that said this no one will ever be able to communicate on the telephone well because unless you can see someone you're not going to figure out what's going on in their voice you're you're not like like telephone communication is basically going to be for like sending over like grocery orders now you and i are

both gen x right like when we were kids we were on the phone for like seven hours a night 100% i can have i have a friendship i have friendships where i only talk to the person on the phone so do i and i i still remember the phone numbers of my friends when i was a kid i don't know anybody's phone number now but i know Andy Quaren's phone number. Yes, right? It's like in there. Right, it's true. And so what's interesting is if we were to watch ourselves talking on the phone,

what we would find is that we behave a little bit differently on the phone. When you're on the phone, people tend to over-enunciate because they know that they can't see us, right? We tend to explain ourselves a little bit more. And when we make a joke, we laugh faster to let the other person know it's a joke. We know that they don't have the visual signal. And so we're trying to compensate by giving them more audio. So.

Now the thing is we've been talking on the phones for over over a hundred years. We've been communicating face-to-face for millennia. The first email was sent in 1982, right? Most people didn't get an email account until the late 90s. We basically have 20 years of learning how to communicate digitally. We have not, though, the rules about how that channel is different have not become intuitive yet. So the solution is we have to think about it more when we're texting or emailing. And we have to say to ourselves, okay.

And these are the tips. When I am online and I'm communicating that way, politeness matters a lot more than when I'm face to face. And study after study has shown this, that if you say please and thank you in an email, there's like 70% higher response rate. Okay. Because I need to signal it, right?

Now, if I'm texting you, I can be short. But if I send you an email and I treat it like a text, unless we're good friends. That's my problem. Like, it's going to rub you the wrong way, right? So part of it is just saying, what are the rules for this particular channel? Because our instinct is to say the rules for one channel is the rules for every channel. You're right.

So we treat email and text and slack and everything exactly the same way. But the truth is, if you just take a second and you say like, oh, I don't have to say, please, necessarily in this text, because it could be short. But every email I should like bend over backwards to be a little bit more polite. It works wonders. Brother. I'm such a bad emailer. I'm so lazy with emails. I sometimes don't even put my name at the end of it.

You know what I mean? Never mind to thank you. I think I'm the worst emailer that's ever lived. And I've had a lot of people, even that I've worked with, you know, even like in the podcast space, with like, man, when I met you're so nice and kind of read your emails, you're scary. I'm like, really? I didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to get to the point so we could go do something else.

I thought email was the faster way, but you're 100% right. The rules of engagement, so to speak, are something that I've been oblivious to. That right there was huge for me. And sometimes you can establish new rules, right? Like if you say to your employees like, look, I just want you know, I'm going to send you brusque emails because I'm moving a million miles an hour, you should not read anything into that. Yeah.

Now we know the rule. Well, now I've pre-framed it, but I don't do that. Yeah. And I treat everybody like they should know better and they don't. And by the way, the worst thing I'll do is I'll get a nice, long, you know, six-paragraph email and I reply with like seven words. Right. And I wonder why they feel dismissed.

Sounds great. In a conversation, that's my daughter. Yeah. Uh-huh. Right. That's the extent of my email. So you're a thousand percent right. My son texts me K.

He doesn't even put okay. He just puts K. I'm like, how much lazier can you get? I relate to that. But that setting the ground rules, setting like figuring out the rules together, we can do that in a conversation too. So if we're talking about, say, race, right?

Which is a tough topic. If I start that conversation by saying, I'd like to talk to you about this and I just want to acknowledge it's going to, it will likely be awkward. I will probably make me. mistakes and say things that I don't really not saying it the right way you're probably gonna make mistakes like I think just as a as a ground rule like let's just say it's okay to say things and forgive each other very not getting it right so now we've established the now all of

a sudden that conversation about race feels so much easier right we're both open we're both vulnerable we've both given ourselves some space to make a mistake and share our real thoughts and the other thing is if you don't create that space then you're really not saying what you really think either and it's not an authentic exchange. That's exactly. I agree when you ask for permission. I'm going to ask you two more things. Sure.

Okay. You said earlier something about repeating back to someone, hey, what I think I heard you say was, let me understand this, right? I love that and totally agree. So, sorry, go ahead. Well, I want you to reply with that. And then also, what about the conversation's been over to me?

When I feel the most listened to, you and I had lunch together, okay? And you did that. But 7.30 that night I get a message from me. you. You're gone. I'm gone. And you say, I just want to tell you something. I enjoyed our conversation so much. And the way that you spoke about your wife or what you shared about, blah, blah, blah. I just want to tell you it was so meaningful for me. To me, that's like what you've suggested on steroids, that actually after the conversation has ended, I come back later

and say, not only have I listened to what you said, but I've been thinking about what you said, and it made a difference to me. I just want to share that I do that. And I think that's a way of me saying I really value and appreciate what we discussed and it feels so good I've gotten an email like that from you and like it felt really good to get it and it was a great conversation right but like to know that it was meaningful to you and it's much like laughing it's you saying like I want to connect you wanted to say something and I think I jumped in front of it oh I was just going to talk about this looping for understanding these three so so looping for understanding there's three steps to it you you ask a question hopefully a deep question repeat back in your own words what you heard someone say okay and then step number three

ask if you got it right. Ask if you got it right. And it's that third step that we often forget to do and is the most powerful. Okay. Because what I'm saying when I ask you if I got it right

and I do this all the time. I'm like, let me tell you what I hear you saying and like, tell me if I'm getting this wrong. Is that we are saying to them, not only do I want to understand you, I acknowledge that I might have missed something and you, you might have phrased it in a way

that doesn't actually capture what you want. And so like when someone says that to me, when they're like, tell me if I'm getting this right and they repeat back what I just said, I actually find it valuable as the speaker because I'm like, no, no, no, like I did a bad job of explaining like the thing that like I really care about

because you didn't pick up on it and you were listening. I need to get better at that. And that feels good. That's outstanding. All right, last question. First off, let me say this. This is awesome.

Oh, thank you. And I, both times we've had to interact together like this, It flies by for me. And frankly, that's because you're a super communicator. As are you. Oh, thank you. And the quality of your work, listen, guys, there's a lot of books. This man doesn't write a ton of them because they're so good when he writes them.

There's so much in here, even in today's podcast, like, I hope you understand the value of getting good at these, what I would call almost nuances that make all the difference in the world. So this is a broad question, just framing it differently. I want to finish with it. And thank you for that, by the way. It's true. You know,