THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Jordan Belfort: Sales, Redemption, and Building an Extraordinary Life

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

What if the story you’re stuck in isn’t who you are… it’s just who you’ve been? In this conversation, I sit down with Jordan Belfort "The Real Wolf of Wall St", and I’ll tell you right now, this is not the interview you’re expecting. Most people know Jordan for one chapter of his life, but today we go way deeper. We talk about identity, values, and what it really takes to rewrite your story when the world keeps trying to define you by your past. And what hit me the most is this. He didn’t have to become someone new. He had to rediscover who he was before everything went off track. That is a powerful lesson for every single one of us. Ed Mylett We also get into the truth about money, success, and the tradeoffs nobody talks about. There is a point in your life where chasing the next level has a cost, and you better start asking yourself if it is worth it. Jordan opens up about choosing ethics over easy money, even when it cost him millions. That kind of discipline and clarity is rare. We talk about building a life that is not just successful on paper, but one that actually feels right when you wake up every day. Then we shift into something every entrepreneur and salesperson needs to hear. This is a masterclass in communication and persuasion. Jordan breaks down what really makes someone influential. It is not manipulation. It is understanding people, asking better questions, mastering tonality, and building real trust. If you have ever wondered why some people instantly connect and others don’t, this part of the conversation alone is worth listening to twice. And we go into the future. AI, business, and what is coming next. Jordan is deep in the AI world right now, and what he shares about where things are headed will open your eyes. Some jobs will disappear. New ones will be created. But the people who win are the ones who adapt, who learn, and who stay ahead of the curve. The lesson is simple. If you do not disrupt yourself, someone else will. This episode is about ownership. Ownership of your story, your skills, your future, and your standards. If you are ready to stop living in your past and start building what is next, this one is for you. Key Takeaways: Why your past does not define you and how to rewrite your identity The difference between chasing money and building a meaningful life The real truth about ethical selling and influencing people the right way How tonality, presence, and communication determine your success Why becoming an expert is a decision, not a timeline The future of AI and what it means for sales, business, and entrepreneurship Why you must disrupt yourself before the world does it for you 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ←  ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠FACEBOOK⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LINKEDIN⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  ➡️ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WEBSITE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Edmunds show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. So I'd say probably seven or eight years I wanted to have this man on the show. I did his show like a million years ago. And I'm going to tell you guys something. I don't know if a surprise is the right word, but pleasantly happy, I guess. I liked him so much personally when I met him. Maybe a little bit different than his character in the movie.

You know, like I really, really enjoyed his company. And I consider him probably the best seven. trainer there is going in the world today number one he does a whole bunch of other things too but his style and the way he teaches sales is probably what I'm most aligned with but I really enjoyed his company and I think you're going to enjoy his company today as well because we're gonna have a little bit of a different conversation than you've probably seen him on other podcasts so here's who he is he's the wolf of Wall Street that's how you really know him but I know him was

like a really good man and a great great sales trainer super talented Jordan Belfort welcome to the show I just very nice Ed and I feel to say about you obviously on my podcast a zillion years ago and it was one of my best you know performing podcasts i don't do it i'm so busy right now i'm really even done podcast in a couple of years but you were great and so it's great to be back you know yeah it's great to be with you brother so you know i want to you've been on every podcast so i want to have a little bit of a different conversation with you and um and do stuff that like it's hard for guy at your stature and your level for people when they listen to you to like relate to the story at all right like it's one of the great stories of all times

But one of the theories I have about what holds people back is they get attached to a story about themselves. Something that happened when they were a kid or their divorce or a business setback. They get attached to a story or who they believe they are. And then it almost just reconfirms the story over and over again in their life. And in your case, that one window of your life is like the story, right? And it's how everybody knows you. did to some extent I know it was a great thing because you got notoriety from it but I have to think there's a part that's like all right it was like I was a kid I was young like I'm a different human being now how did you break out of that like how did you change the narrative of this is who you are in your life and I know you probably don't get asked that a lot if ever but I'm curious because I think people listening are attached to this story and they got to change the narrative it's a good question I mean from starters I would say that um I personally in my own mind never had an issue with like breaking out of that.

Like I knew I wasn't that guy anymore. And I think that's because that wasn't the guy I was when I started. In other words, so, you know, it wasn't like I had to find some new person. It was more about rediscovering the person I was before I veered off course and went hog wild. Then, you know, and listen, I never want to minimize what I did. But the fact is, I was on Wall Street. And, you know, that goes down on Wall Street. Like, what I did is nothing in compared to what happened during the GFC,

the global financial crisis where, like, you know, Goldman bankrupted, Iceland, then you're, I mean, I'm not trying to say two rights, you know, to wrong to make a right, not minimizing. But it wasn't like, you know, after the GFC, it was like, ah, you see? I mean, I was glad to say it. I'm like, guys, you know, and I deserve to go to jail. I made mistakes. I, you know, I manipulated stocks.

Yeah, I'm not trying to minimize that. So, but in my own mind. it wasn't like I'm like, I'm a criminal. I never got in trouble in my life. I come from a family and no one ever got in trouble. My parents are the most honest. My dad, my rest of the pieces.

Honest, my mom is, you know, the oldest woman in New York State to pass the bar. She was a CPA back in the 50s when, you know, women were not in the workplace like that. She was in the city at a big,

one of the big, you know, eight back then. Now it's like probably the big three or four are counting. Yeah. So it wasn't like this thing. I like, okay,

I have to learn to be a better person. It's more like, wow, You know, I really took a left turn out of Kirkie. And I think I have to examine one thing. It's probably my values, you know? And I think that's really what really got corrupted in the sense of putting a value on money above everything else. Like how much can do you make more?

That question you ask yourself, how do you make more versus how do I give more value to people? Because the bottom line is business and making money the right way is simply about knowing how to monetize value. you. If you have something valuable that helps people, you can get rich. And the more people you help, the rich you're going to get if you know the rules of business. So like, so those, and those rules I do know quite well. And I learned a lot of them from failing. I learned them from my failures. And I learned them from my successes. But more from my failures, by the way, than my successes. You know, that's how you learn and you grow. And of course, back in my day, there was no internet. There were no courses. There weren't really mentors like there are today. So you had to figure a lot of out on your own.

you didn't have entrepreneurship courses. There are some great methods out there. Teachers, well, you're one of them, right? There are some great people, right? So I think for me, it wasn't so much about having to discover a new person, but to rediscover the old person. Now, changing people's minds about you, that's a different side of the story. So, I mean, if you talk about self-belief, I didn't have an issue with that.

I knew I'd never get in trouble again, and I veered away from anything that could even possibly get me in trouble, right? You know, I don't, listen, I could have launched a meme coin 10 times and made 30, 50, 100 million dollars. Never did. Could have launched NFTs, never did. All the things that I knew I could make quick hits. And I always have this idea, well, you know, if I make a ton of money, is someone else losing money as a result of me making money? And if that's what happened, I'm not into it.

I've done, I've been down that row before and it doesn't feel good. Thankfully, I have enough money right now. I don't need to do that. And I would never sacrifice my ethics that way because it doesn't end. end well and you don't feel good after anyway. So those are sort of like the rules that I live by right now. And it's cost to me a lot of opportunity. I could have made a lot more money than I have.

But I didn't launch a coin. I didn't do an NFT. I didn't engage in any of that nonsense. And I think I'm better off for it, at least inside. Maybe my baton town doesn't have as many zeros as a good ad. But it has enough zeros to me to live the life I want. I'm going to say that. You got enough zeros.

I have this theory lately. And I'm really curious. You and I could speak to this. I think, at our age, too. This is not something you'd hear on, like, most motivation or self-help or business podcasts, but it's something I wanted to ask you about.

So, if you look at, like, climbing the ladder of life, right? Like, when you're young and you don't have a lot of responsibilities in single, I think every rung, for the most part, if you do it ethically, is worth whatever the trade-off is to climb higher, right? This is, I've always wanted to ask you this since we met.

And, but there is a point, in my opinion, I've gotten older, that these extra rungs, and this may not affect everybody listening today, but it will at some point hopefully in your life, where you've climbed pretty high, and you do have some zeros in your bank account now. Maybe you got a little notoriety. No one ever tells you it's worth evaluating the trade-off for the next rung, right? There really is. At some point on the climb, in my opinion, you do need to start to evaluate how's this affecting my health, my mental health, my relationships.

No one ever talks about this. And I started climbing, you know, I had a TV show with NBC and eventually has like, I don't know if this next rung I'm grabbing for is worth the tradeoff in the climb. And I've kind of observed that with you. Like you got all this, you got hot. I mean, you are hot. Like, a lot of notoriety. But I also know you like, you're kind of like a romantic dude.

Like you love your relationships. You love the significant person in your life. life, like, did you do that at some point? What would your advice be to someone? Like, climb your tail off now. But at some point, you've got to start looking at this stuff, right? Sure. I mean, obviously, like, you know, listen, you know, if you're still acting the same way

when you're in your 50s as you are when you were in your 20s, or you're still asking yourself the same questions, then you haven't really lived, you haven't grown, you have a real issue, right? And I think for someone who's in their 20s or their 30s, that is a, that is a time when you want to actually literally go out there and you want to focus on staking your claim and making, you know, a ton of money because I think money matters. It is important. Now, then, that depends on how you value, money. Everyone has their own number and their own standard of what they want to make. So, you know, is always your congruent with what your belief systems

are about, you know, I want to be super rich, but I don't really want to put it in the effort. Well, that's not going to really end that well, right? But for people like us who had to decide to really be successful and make a lot live a great life financially, right? There's a time where you've got to, you know, put the hours in. Now, just to be clear, I still put the hours in right now. Because I love it. Yeah, yeah. If I didn't, if I didn't, I don't look at my work as work.

Right. Everybody, just so you know, this is a Saturday, he and I are doing this on a Saturday morning. So most people are cooing it on the weekends. He and I are still crushing it. So keep that in context. But I was coding since 7 a.m. this morning, all right? I've been coding since 7. You know, I code.

I'm an AI company. And I've been coding. and debugging. I did it 17 hours. I mean, I'm going to fucking tear. But to me, like, it's not work. I enjoy it. It keeps me stimulate.

I would go crazy if I just sat there. But I still worked out yesterday. You know, my wife is here. In other words, it's balanced. So, but here's the point that I think you were really making, which is a good one. And, you know, there's a difference when you're saying, you know, I want to climb higher and make more. You know, the most money I ever made is not when I'm working the hardest.

necessarily. It's like, you know, like if you have a good business and you've built it the right way, you know, whether you make a million a year, 10 million or 100 million is really more a function of how well the business was structured, what industry you're in. And because, and, you know, in the timing, too, by the way, but the point is you really have to work harder to make a lot more money. It's really, some of it is, some of it is luck, by the way. Some people get lucky.

And when I say luck, it's not like, oh, you just, know there's a lot of massive power, but you just were in the right place, right time, and then you had the right idea. You executed, right? So you could work your ass over and make $200,000 a year. In one industry, you can work your ass with another and make 10 or then cash out for $50 or a billion. So it's not so much that it's like, I have to work harder to make more. The thing you're talking about is like chasing after every opportunity.

Exactly. Yes. You know, like you have to like, you want to be more significant. And then you find out that all you're doing basically is executing on ideas and you're not really living a life. That's a very different thing. Correct. Yeah, and I think people should know that. I'm big on it right now because I don't think most successful people will warn you about it. And I just think, like, in my case, like there's a point where you got to evaluate what you are trading for the pursuit of significance, money, whatever it is. And by the way, I totally agree with you. I've been

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Mizanand-Main.com promo code MyLet 20. And if you'd rather shop in person, you can find Mizan-M-M-M-Stores in select states. Carry your family. I was thinking about the other day I knew you were coming on and actually my son who reached out to you to help you with your golf game a little bit

My son So do I brother We got to play together You'll feel much better about your game But My son will tell you this I said I really liked him Like I really liked him

Like I think had it been at a different time In both our lives He and I'd have been very close friends I just enjoyed his company Something about our energy That was very similar And I said to Max, my son, I said, I liked him like instantly, like shook his hand and liked him. And Max

says, Dad, you got to ask him about this because part of the things he's been talking about lately is like in sales is like the first four seconds. Will you talk about that for a second? So everybody gets that. Because I think most people think I'm not in sales. Yes, you are. Yeah, right. Well, let me think, of course, listen, I think, you know, sometimes, you know, there's someone and it's kind of like you're very similar. So it's very easy to get into a rapport with someone who's similar to you, right? And And also, you know, one of the things that's a benefit to me or detriment to some people, I guess, is that everyone knows me pretty well, my reputation. So you could love me or hate me, whatever. If you want to hate what I did 38 years ago, go ahead and that.

You know, the haters, drive engagement is more than the lovers anyway. Right. But either way. So, you know, for me, it's pretty like I go in with a lot of sort of, you know, backstory and a lot of credentials already loaded in. And you're the same. Okay? you're the same, right? But there is this idea, and it's very true in terms of this initial impression, and it's just, you know, literally, and it's, it's very simple and it's learnable in

terms of how you make eye contact, how you shake hands at somebody, how close do you stand, you know, what's your tonality like? You're like, hey, nice to be, hey, nice to meet you, you know, but it's just simple stuff that's learnable, but it's powerful. And, and then what happens, though, and I think what people don't realize is that you said that to your son, like I like the guy instantly, but if I would have revealed myself to be in second number eight or second number 30 or in minute number five, you would have said, you know, the guy's an idiot. I hated him the second I laid up. All those first few seconds, there was it buys you the opportunity to then prove that your first impression was correct. So you have to be very, it's not like you make a good

first impression and now I'm an asshole. True. The first impression opens up the ability you then to get the deeper rapport. Repore is not a constant, right? But one of these people to be very, very aware of is that, you know, you're one stupid statement away from revealing yourself to be, you know, a novice or an asshole. And you have to really, when you're, especially in a business setting, now when you're with your friends is very different, you know,

you just want to be you. Although, like, again, when you meet someone the first time, a girl or a guy, I said my representative. It's like my best self. Right, everybody, right. That's right. You know? You do.

But I also think like today, 30 years ago, a lot of the population weren't good at communication and selling. But like now it's at an all time low because of the internet, because kids are in their phones. I mean, people's inner person. I was here in the hotel last night and a bunch of young people got in the elevator with me, a couple of them knew who I was. And I couldn't get any of them to even look me in the eye or introduce themselves. And that's not a, that's not a global criticism. But like he has this thing you guys called the straight line system that I think you all should go get if you want to learn to sell and communicate better.

Because you get into the real stuff. And I want to just let's just give everyone a little flavor here. One thing you're great at, like great at when you speak on stage right now today, one on one is your tonality. Your tonality, you know how to use inflection in your voice. You know how one tone is to command respect and you're an authority figure. and other ones like, hey, to ease things up. You know, you do that very well. Speak to that a little bit.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think that that's obviously, you know, one of the things I'm known for is teaching tonality. And I think there are some people that naturally have really, really great tonality. I'm one of them for sure, right? You aren't, too. There's some, but most people don't really have that gift. It comes much less naturally. But again, the good news is it's an entirely learnedable skilled.

And, you know, the way you learn it is by first, You know, the first thing is understanding like, okay, well, what are they? You know, you know, you don't know what you don't know, right? You're unconsciously incompetent, right? And then the idea is like someone raises, like me, raises your awareness and become consciously incompetent. Like he's like, oh, my God. So wait, I know he sounds so good for a reason. Like when Leo in the movie, right, Leo sounds so amazing on the phone and when he gave the speeches, right?

Well, he didn't sound like that before I met him when he would pick up a phone to try to sell stock. I trained him. and obviously he's an immensely talented individual. Wow, okay. Until he was trained, he didn't. And, of course, he's smart enough to know, show me how to do this.

What is the system? How do you sound the way you sound, right? And, you know, I broke it down from into these core tonalities. And I showed him here's where you lower your voice here and you speak with certainty, here or the just, he even made the gestures I made and everything. So it's a combination of body language tonality. And the thing is, once you become aware where there are tonalities,

well, the first step then is to say, okay, well, In a sale, you know, let me granularly, if I had a script, then you start with the script, right? Because that's the only way to learn it. Where would I speak with certainty? Where would I lower my voice? Where would I speak with sincerity and empathy? Where would I say, like, sound fair enough, you're reasonable, I'm reasonable, right? Where would I say, you know, you know, does the idea make sense you like the idea?

Like, hypothetically, it's all, right? Now, when you actually have that broken down view and applaud. and you actually practice that, right? And it takes a couple of days, not very long, to learn it. Something really odd happens. Very quickly, your brain rewires itself, and you no longer need to think about it. The more you practice, even if you're not born with the gift,

all right, even if you're terrible at it, you can get competent at it very quickly. It's like to strip out everything you say for the rest of your life. Once you start getting into the rhythm and your brain starts to understand, it will naturally start applying tonalities at the right point. in conversation. And that's the key.

So the first step is understanding what they are. Next step is saying, where do you say then? How do I say it? And then actually technically applying it through practice and role playing. And then you'll be going to be clunky at first. Of course,

no, no one's perfect at first, right? The old adage, no, kids walk. Every kid walks. Why? Well, the first they fall down. But the parents are giving them encouragement. I don't want to repeat. That's an old Tony Robbins story.

Oh, it's true. But it's true. That's what I love Tony. is truism, right? But the point is, is that like, that's how you learn. And I think some of the problems, I was like they're scared to look ridiculous. Well, guess why? You know, if you don't, not like to look a little bit ridiculous will sound like it wouldn't in the beginning. Well, you're never going to get perfect. But it doesn't think long to get perfect. It's worth it. The way, you're all welcome because this is stuff that you really don't, you, you watch people that

you connect with do these things well. And if you're not aware, if you're not conscious, it's like invisible why you connect with them, why they persuade you. Now you're learning from two persuasive people how to do it. Here's the other thing that you do really well. And it's silence. So I've watched you speak on stage. We've actually not been backstage together, but we've been at many events where you're before me or after me and vice versa. And when I watch good stand-up comics, I watch good stage speakers, I watch great salespeople. They have a different level of the utilization and comfort level with silence in a conversation, right? And this is like a nuance most people don't realize. And it's just, I want them inside what you and I would talk about.

Talk about the idea of using or being comfortable with silence. Yeah, yeah. You call it uncomfortable silences. And what happens is people that don't really communicate well, they feel the need to jump in and fill the vacuum. Yep, yep. Yes. And obviously there's nothing wrong with silence, okay? But even in sales, you know, especially in persuasion. Right. You know, God gave you two ears and one mouth so listen twice as much as you speak, right? But, but like that's kind of, you know, okay, and it's true. But when you speak, you want to say something that matters. And when you listen, you don't want to listen like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. This is active listening. Uh-huh. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. nodding your head, okay, leaning back when someone's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, scratching, yep, totally.

So it's just sort of like this communication when you're not speaking, you're communicating all the time. What about also asking the second question? I just want to ask you about that. So to me, when I think someone's really listening to me, they've asked me a question and then I've answered it, and then they'll ask like a clarification question or the next layered question. And then I'm like, oh, they're really connecting with me.

Whereas most people are like, I'm in sales now. I've learned to ask questions. And it's just like this robotic process of it. Even podcasts like this. It's like robotic. Like they didn't even hear what you said. They're onto the next thing on their list. Right.

Whereas like, I'm listening to you. And there's a, there's a second and a third and maybe even a fourth question down the line. Right. So this is part. It's funny you say that because it's like, it's like literally like dead arm balls accurate. So like when I teach people like, you know, the art of prospect and gathering intelligence, right? You know, one of the rules is you want to, you know, go from big picture questions to smaller picture questions, less invasive questions to more.

Like the first question you ask someone, if you're trying to get someone to like, you know, invest in the stock market. I mean, how much money have in the bank? It's like, so, you know, how long you've been in the market for? What are you typically like? You're like, tech, you're like questions anybody with that. Ask four or five of those. And by the other, what do you typically put into an idea?

You know, ballpark. Yeah, and how much you have in the market? not to me, they'll tell you, right? Right. All these rules, but one of the key rules, and there's two sides to this, is I'm going to take it even a layer deeper, right? Absolutely. It's about keeping a logical progression, okay, and asking these follow-ups, like unpacking,

not ping-ponging. Someone asks you a question, they give you get an answer. If that answer dictates a follow-up, you need to follow-up on that question and dig a bit deeper to get to the next layer. And in addition to that, if you want to really, impress people is almost when someone says something and you should be an expert in what you're selling in the field, whatever problem you're trying to solve, you want to clarify what they said in a way that makes it even more powerful. So you mirror back to them. So let me understand. And then if you

really have some insights of industry insight, even explain it more to them like exactly boom. Then they're like, holy fuck, this guy gets it. He knows. Wow. And you can really impress people. So you're not only following up with more questions, you're also clarifying what they said and even maybe giving insight, not bite insight. It's something, it's the ability to show tidbits of industry knowledge. It keeps building you up in their mind as an expert, he's a real expert versus being a novice or just like, you know, someone in the middle. So yeah, keeping this logical flow, making sure that you ask follow-ups or don't ask them if there are nothing to follow-up, but when they're obviously there, you want to ask them. And you also want to make sure that you

are communicating back to them that you understand them and that maybe you even are adding value right from there by clarifying their statements and adding on even other problems. And so you might also be then running into this. Correct. Yeah, exactly. So, so last sales questions, this is so good. I wasn't going to ask you this one, but since you said it, you said expert, right? What about just the mindset of your approach?

Do you think, if I'm in sales or anything, I sell cards, I sell, um, I own a dry cleaners and you walk in. It doesn't matter. That's still a form of sales, right? Do you believe that the mindset I should have, if I'm a realtor, let's just say, I assume the mindset of an authority in that industry? Like, I think this escapes most people. I'm like, I don't know if this person really is any good.

Like, if I'm going to have knee surgery, I don't want it to be your third one. Like, I want it, I want a great knee surgeon, right? So do you think as a salesperson, one of the key things is to assume the, roll the mindset, the posture of an authority, like just being an authority in your industry, or do you not buy into that? No, it's an absolute must. And I'll tell you why. And it's one of the things that holds a lot of people back, especially in the beginning,

because the key is, is that human beings intuitively, we learn, we know what experts are supposed to look like and sound like. And we also know what they don't look like and sound like. We know about. And we've been exposed to this since we're very small. When we were very young, if we were sick, our parents took us to a doctor. When we noticed how the doctor dressed a certain way, acted a certain way, even our own parents deferred to the doctor. He had diplomas on the wall and everyone treated him with respect because he had gone to school for many years and learned everything that was to know by making sick people better.

And when you went into see the doctor, what did he do? He started asking you questions and examining you. And when he asked you a question, you didn't say, well, what do you want to know that, Doc? How about that? No, you answer his questions honestly and forthrightly. Why? Because he's an expert. And then he asked you a series of questions.

And then when he was done, he didn't say, okay, have a nice day. You're like, what? He's okay, well, based on what you said, let me tell you here's what's going on. He tells you what's happening and then gives you a prescription, if necessary, a procedure, whatever it might be, he gives you the solution. So we look, and that's how we've been trained all life. When we were growing up, we wanted to learn a sport, our parents would hire us a coach who was an expert, a tutor.

When we got older into business, if you had problems, you would hire a lawyer. We seek out experts to help us solve our problems and eliminate pain points. And when we're in the presence of someone, and here's the important thing, that we believe to be an expert, we defer.

We allow the expert to control the flow of the encounter. That's what we do. When we are in the presence of someone we believe is a novice, So we will try to control the encounter and cut them off, take them out with the Pluto, and all bad things start to happen. Now, the problem is, is that when people start in an industry and start in sales, they feel like, well, I'm not an expert selling cars yet.

So I really can't sound like one until I am a b-h-uh. Okay? Put me out of call. I'll sound like a f*** expert like in 10 minutes. Now, believe me, the night before I'd be up for 12 hours, learning everything about, out cars. And I'm not saying to lie. I'm saying you want to actually act as if, and you better become an expert and close that gap really quick. But there is absolutely nothing that you need to, you don't have to like pretend to be a novice. You could act like one before you're

one and then quickly close that knowledge gap. And conversely, I know a lot of people who are stone cold experts and sound like novices and they can't sell that way at it. have a paper bed. So it's not so much being one, it's sounding like one, but then, of course, you want to become one and not, you don't want this to be like just a facade. You need to be an expert. You guys, this is so good. I got to tell you, like, why it's why it's your not? I just want to remind the audience of this. I'll tell you this too. My dad was an alcoholic, drug addict until I was 15, and then my dad got sober. And like anybody who gets sober, typically there's someone who helps you or becomes your sponsor or whatever it is. The guy who helped my dad get

sober was sober himself 31 days. That's it. So he was not an expert, but what he was is he cared. What he did is he sounded like an expert, but he wasn't one. So a lot of you think that you've got to have, you know, you got to be the best in the world of what you do. Yeah, you do eventually, but in the interim, you can still make a lot of sales. You can still help a lot of people. One of those sales on getting sober was my dad from a dude who was only sober 31 days. And I'm sitting here with all of you guys today, I think in large part because that did happen with my dad. So just remember the ripple effect of helping one person even in the beginning of your career. Now, here's what is the best part about everything Jordan teaches. Then we're going to shift gears to AI in a second, which is

ethical selling. And I think just because of the Wolf of Wall Street, like if they didn't encounter you the last trillion years since the movie, right, and seeing your work, which there are people here today that haven't, we're not talking about manipulation here. We're not talking about trying to get somebody to do something that's not good for them. I just want you to speak to that. Because any time in the world now where you start teaching people how to persuade or communicate, even like how I was raised, ah, I got it.

It's all like slide a hand and trickeration over here. But that's not what we're talking about. There's a few parts that. So clearly that's not that. And I always say, like, you know, you're not using the straight line system. You're not using it because you want to get people to do things they shouldn't do or buy things they shouldn't buy. It's the opposite, right?

It's about getting people to overcome these internal and mostly irrational barriers they have to taking action to get things they actually should get and solve problems they need to solve. There are some people, for example, that have what I call a very high action threshold. Their belief systems, their experiences as such, the way they're just wired makes it very difficult for them to make a decision. They will torture themselves as they painfully slow when it comes to this. decisions and they hate salespeople, they don't want to be persuaded, and very often those people go through life lacking a lot of things they need and don't have their problem solved. My dad was one of them. And well, may you rest of me, he's a wonderful dad, but he hated salespeople, which is pretty funny, right? And I'm ironic at least. Ironically, though, it was just that like

people like that, you know, well, how did they buy shit? Like if they're that top, well, they buy things when they're desperate and they, when the pain gets so bad, then suddenly that action, threshold drops, right? So like, but once they buy from someone, that's their guy. Like my dad, he had his car guy. Like Vinny was a, it was car guy. Vinny at the, Sonoco station, the local, like, no one's touching my dad's Dodge Dart, but Vinny.

Like, Enzo Ferrari said, Max, I'm going to fix your car for free. I'm going to make it. Enzo, don't touch my car, okay? Only Vinny can, that was my dad with everything. Now, I'll tell you a great story, though, you know, when I was about 12, and he was like out with everything. He had a car guy. He had a shirt guy. He had one barber. Every one guy for everything.

And they could be ripping his eyeballs out. Overcharged up. Then he's my guy. And that's that. Right? Because they don't want, that's how it happens. Right. New York to Florida. New York to Williamsburg. Whatever it was. We were like three hours outside of New York, right? On the way down south. And we're like not great

part of the country. Like, you know, Hillbilly. And my father's car overheats. It's my myself, my mother, my brother, my dad's driving, the Dodge Dart, right? And smoke starts coming out of the radiator. And it's like 5.30 p.m. and the sun's like start the set room. And you know, my dad did? He went to the first gas station he could find and say, fix my car. I don't care how much it costs. It could have said the name of the gas station could have been Dewey, Cheatham, and Howl. And he still would have done it because at that point, I worry he was feeling,

It's an action threshold to drop to zero. Just fix it. I don't care. Right now in persuasion, we can use that to help people, like my father, make great decisions that they should be making by, you know, by uncovering what are their pain points? What are they really worried about? What is that deep worry that rests at the base of their skull and keeps them up all night long? And the way you get that, uncover that is through intelligence gathering by asking questions

and digging deeper as we were speaking about. And once you had that information, you don't want to say, oh, I saw a problem or something. No, I'm not just saying, you want to amplify that. Let them really understand what is costing, what the problem is, what's holding them back. And then you want to reserve that. And later on in the conversation,

when they're really in that point, they won't make a good decision. You say, listen, let me ask you this. And you reintroduce that pain. Let them understand what's truly it's taken. It's very powerful. Masterclass, everybody. You're welcome. You're welcome.

This is so good. I mean, I'm actually processing this thinking, I love when I'm in the middle of doing a podcast. I'm like, this is going to download like crazy because the content is so good. And I want to interrupt you do all this automatically. You are a great communicator, right? Thank you.

So what happens is all the things I'm saying are part of the straight line system. So it's a system. But what happens is great communicator, it's great closes. They do all this. They do it unconsciously. Yep.

Yeah, and some of it, by the way, some of it is actually consciously. And so also when you're a professional communicator and you hear someone speak truthfully about how to do it correctly, it's a validation. You're like, I do that. That's true for me. I see all this online guru stuff from these sales trainers. And I'm like, that's just crap.

That's not how it works. That's not the real world. And by the way, that's not even ethical what you're teaching. And so that's why what you're talking about, you know, I resonate with so much. So a little bit of a name dropper thing. I want to shift a little bit because we only got, I don't have too much time. But you're doing stuff in AI right now. You're telling me off camera.

got some huge success in that lane already as well. So it's an ironic Leo thing. I was sitting an event about five months ago, and Leo was sitting next to me, who played you in the movie, right? And by the way, he's not a talkative dude until you get the ball rolling a little bit. Great guy, by the way. He's a great guy. He's a great guy.

He got to know him that night. He's a terrific guy. He didn't let you know me? Because we're friends. Of course I did. How do you think I bridged the gap? I dropped your name. Of course I did.

And there's another actor there that's actually a really good friend. mine, which also helped. But anyway, I asked them both. I said, what's different in the movie business than, say, five, ten years ago? And, like, they both, their heads almost dropped. Like, oh, bro, like streaming's changed everything, number one, the way we shoot the movies. But he said, I said, what's the biggest one? He goes, it's just starting, but it's AI. And he goes, the way movies are going to be shot, what budgets were going to be allowed to do, how scenes are set up, how writing is going to be done. It's a real. tsunami coming to our industry and I don't know where it's all going to land. And then I started

to think about what we do, meaning anything sales related, anything anyone's doing. I certainly wouldn't mind being a plumber right now because I think those dudes are safe. But like, what are your overall thoughts or advice to people listening about this thing coming our way called AI when it comes to sales, but also just, you know, entrepreneurship in general? You've obviously decided to get out in front of this cram course. When I met you, if I said you'd be coding the morning that we're doing my podcast someday, you'd be like, what the heck is coding? Like, there's no way.

So take them through kind of what you've done to get in front of it and your thoughts on it. I got into artificial intelligence. Maybe it was about two years ago, a little bit more maybe, right? We run people's sales operations and advise them, right? And they were trying to, in some companies. I forgot to name it. Maybe it was Air AI or something. Oh, we have a sales agent that's an AI

and it can go out there and close sales and do lead generation. And my, I didn't even hear about directly. Someone else got pitched at the company. Then said it to me. I said, well, let me hear it and it sucked. Terrible, right? Then I went and looked at the pricing.

The pricing was ridiculous back then, right? But it was not good. The latency was terrible. And you could fool it in two seconds. It would say stupid shit, right? But that was the first, like, shot across about. Maybe it was almost two and a half years. Maybe even three. Wow.

So it was early, right? It was when chat, GBT, it was like 3.0 maybe. It was like, I really like. But I'm always very nice to AI because when they rule us, it's not going to kill me. Oh, I love my guy. Right, right. A friend of mine, good friend of mine, a top VC, Shervin Pischvar and I was a good friend. We were out for dinner.

I told him this and I said, you know, if we could build an AI, imagine me. Imagine a bike you have a digital twin Jordan that knew everything and we could teach this thing to sell like me. that would be freaking amazing. And so began this venture, okay, we first funded ourselves. And I spent about a year just wasting money because I had to learn about technology, all right, and engineers and good ones and bad ones.

But I went on a massive crash course. I'm really tech. I am so technical you wouldn't even believe it, how technical I am about artificial intelligence, coding, and architecture. and say I had to, because I'm a believer in any business you're in. If you don't know that business, you don't know the interest, you are going to get slam. Your people will lie to you.

Not that they need me to, but they're just going to, you know, you can't tell fact from fiction, blah, blah, blah, right? And then I got lucky in the sense that the tail wins. And I knew this doesn't really look. I knew that the AI would improve. The models would improve. That was obvious to me. So I didn't, so I always built it from the sense that I'm not worried.

I'm not building this application for what AI can do today. I'm trying to catch this when it's ready in a year and a half. from now. So I didn't go into this trying to build a sales agent that can get on a telephone call and qualify a lead. I didn't do that. I have that and we do that. We have a couple that does that. That's a child's place. Nothing, right? Okay, doing two seconds, right? I said, I want to build an AI that can freaking close a complex sale, carry on a conversation over two months if it has to with callbacks, texting, email, persistent memory, an omni-channel, agent that can actually handle a conversation, complex, insurance, financial services, mortgages,

and literally close like me. And it's still, people don't think it's stuff. We do it. Okay. And it's still not quite ready, just to be clear. It's like another two months away from full enterprise ready. So we're still in stealth mode, right? Because it's very difficult to do that.

Like what I'm saying, it's not like, it is not, whatever you think about AI, these things are Einstein and Forrest Gump. at the same time. That's what they are. Okay. And you can't, where people mostly fall down with this stuff is the model is only one part of it. Okay. You need a very complex architecture around the model with persistent memory, state management, routers that keep the model honest. There's all these different applications, it's a very complex application. And once you have that architecture, then you can start handling conversation that could run 30 minutes an hour. You can have a conversation that goes eight minutes.

And, you know, can you call me back at 3 o'clock this afternoon? I got it, sure, no problem. And it remembers where you are, picks up where it left off, and sends you a text in the middle, calls you back in a week, collects dot. So that's what I've been building with my team. But the plan is, well, you know, we're already post-revenue, but we're going to really launching now over the next 30 days big scaling. And then we're going to do a series A at the end of probably, hopefully,

May or June. My partner is a massive player in the VC space. Maybe Uber, Airbnb, you know, Robin. I'm a big player. So we'll have a great team. A great team. A great team. They've got 15 engineers full time.

By the way, remember whose son helped you with your golf clubs, just what I'm saying. I want to know that sounds good for you and sounds good for the world. Doesn't sound so good if I were in real estate or insurance, though, right? What's your overall, like, 30,000-foot view? because look, let's be honest, like we also make money from people that are in the sales industry as well. But what would you say to somebody who's sitting there going, uh-oh, uh-oh, you know, what do I do now? I'm in my car right now driving to my sales appointment and I, am I going to be replaced by a robot? Yeah, yeah.

So here's what I would say. I give Google so much credit and so much respect because that's the classic, you know, the innovator's dilemma. right? In other words, they owns the search market. And if you're going to have AI suddenly making general search with ads obsolete or semi-obsolid or not, you know, the first thing you want to do, which is true, right? Google would say, well, I'm not going to put AI into my search, but they did. And they put, if you notice, they did a very smart thing. That's brilliant. That's what companies up was they say, I'm holding on. I have to protect what I have. I'm not going to innovate and move phone. I can't make myself obsolete. And then someone else makes them obsolete.

Okay. Now, I will say this. That right there, not interrupt you. That right there, all you entrepreneurs, that's a huge lesson. What he just said right there, don't protect territory, trying to remain, you know, protect yourself for being obsolete because that's how you become it. Ask Blockbuster video when they had a chance to just scoop up Netflix for nine bucks. So just stay in there. Frame it differently. If you don't disrupt yourself, someone else will disrupt you. Wow.

Say it like that, right? And so yet, yet, their search revenue is still booming. Yeah, I know. Like, okay, this is always going to be a need for salespeople. Always, always. Now, do I think things like Legion is going to get commoditized? Yes.

But there, it certainly are going to be AIs out there selling. It's very, very difficult to do. It is, I am telling you, it is to get an AI to really have a sales conversation. They're not designed for that. And I'll tell you why. Because to be a great salesperson, you need to be in control of the conversation. And the way you get into control is by being perceived as an expert, by being perceived as an expert on the ball shop, enthusiastic, people will defer, allow you to control

the flow of a conversation, which allows you then to ask questions in a certain way, present in a certain way, and it allows you to take what would otherwise be a chaotic conversation that could go in a million directions and move it down the straight line. That's the straight line system, right? The guy is designed the opposite. You ask you a question. It gives you an answer, which is reactive. Yeah, good point. And to be a great salesperson, you're going to be pro-out. So it's very, very difficult to get artificial intelligence to sell well. Really, it requires a massive amount of architecture, prompt engineering, context engineering, right? But the point is, like, we are at something called the singularity.

Like, where you can't look past the horizon, the met horizon, and say, I don't know what the is going to happen in five years from now. But what I do know is this. Nothing is certain, but with great certainty is that a lot of the jobs that we have right now, yeah, they're going to be replaced, but there'll be more jobs created. And I think that there's going to be a shift. I think it's so much easier right now to be an entrepreneur. It is so much easier now to start businesses to do whatever you want to do cheaply, effectively, efficiently. And, you know, AI can be a great mentor, but the problem is they will tell you everything is good, which

is really problematic. In other words, if you don't, collaborating with an AI as an art, I collaborate with, I have like multiple AIs and I'm on these high, very high level plans. I'm on all these pro-level plans and I have APIs into them for unlimited usage, right, with the highest level of intelligence. But if you don't, if you're not an expert yourself, it's going to tell you everything is good, every idea is perfect, blah, blah, blah, bah, it doesn't work out that way. But what I can do is if you know what you're doing or at least have, if you're careful, and you work with it and you learn the art of essentially how do you prompt an AI, how do you actually keep it going in the direction, right?

How do you let it play devil's advocate or even have two? One is one, you say, listen, someone gave me this idea. It's the stupidest idea. Just tell me why this is not good. Why is this the stupidest, dumbest idea I've ever heard? And what idea is creating the idea if you're helping you? They're one saying how bad it is. And then you got to start to see the truth.

Because you only have them telling you how good it is they'll just tell you after they'll find statistics. And if they don't exist, they'll make them up. Okay. But the point I'm making is this, to get back to your question, is that will some salespeople be replaced? Yeah, for sure. And there'll be new sales jobs created that are probably even higher paying and other things like that. So, but, you know, you can't live your life worrying about what's going to happen.

You have to sit there and be on the edge of, you know, what's happening and disruptions could happen. All right. Speaking of living your life, this has been really tremendous. And this will be my last question for you. But to speak just on living life in general. This is more like a broad question, but I want to step back because I want people just to hear from you. There's two ways to live your life to me. There's the decision to be just average and ordinary and exist, which is what a lot of people settle into doing in their life.

And then there's this other decision and a set of actions that go with it for life, which is what you've done. I mean, those of you that are on audio, you can't see this, but the view behind this man is like beautiful. He's chosen, even having been knocked down, even got incarcerated. He's chosen, I want to live an extraordinary life. I want to live greatly. I want to touch my potential. I want to have a great life rich of memories and friendships and all that. I'm just curious, like, if you'd speak to that.

You know, why choose, should everybody choose to go as corny as it sounds, man? Like, we're two dudes now halfway through our life, probably. right, that have chosen to pursue our dreams in our life. And what's come with that is a lot of ups and downs, a lot of critics, a lot of crap, a lot of stress, the amount of which most people will never understand, the amount of work, the amount of huge lows and tremendous highs. Sell me on why I should pursue that life if I'm listening to it today. Here's what I would say.

Everyone has to have their own vision for their future, what they want. You know, I'll go to one extreme, Mother Teresa. Well, what was her, you know, what was her currency of value was helping people? She didn't care about money. It didn't matter to her. Money did not truly, did not, that was not her value. Our value was how many people could I touch and help and soothe and heal, right? She's rich as any as, as Elon Musk in her own world, right?

Now, you have other people, you know, like you and I, I mean, like, listen, I'll tell you this very simple. I've been a rich man and been extremely happy. I've been a rich man and been very unhappy, very miserable. I've been poor and very miserable as well. But never once in my life since I'm an adult have I been poor and happy. It is a real issue. Now, I'm not saying you have to be the richest person in the world, but there's a certain amount of money you need to make.

If you want to live a great life, If you want to really, you know, enjoy the finer things and really be able to go after your interests and have free time and have good medical care, a nice place to live, take care of your family, your children, donate to the places and the causes that you believe in, and just have fun. Then there's going to be a certain amount of money you need to make. That number is up to you. It's different for everybody. What I would say is this. You've got to get first very clear on what your vision to the future is. Where do you want to be?

Where do you see yourself in five years? What life do you want? And then you better make sure that your desire, you have that vision, your standard, your work ethic is congruent with that. If you know, you have champagne vision and a beer work ethic, a beer standard. I ain't going to work out so well. All right? Bottom one. So good.

This has been such, I'm really glad we did it. This has been like a really great conversation. Thank you, by the way, for doing this today. on a Saturday. You guys, yeah, I want to see you in person again. Take your money on the golf course. You guys, go get straight line sales course, which is his course. He's also got a book called The Wolf of Investing,

which could help you with the latter part that he just talked about. And share this episode, you guys. I bet you this is the side of Jordan. Not all of you've heard or seen before, and that's what I wanted to accomplish today. It's the side that I've seen and the one that I like. So, Jordan, thanks, brother. It was great.

All right. God bless you. Max out. Get myelin charred.