THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Leadership Lessons That Will Break You and Build You with Craig Groeschel  

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Are you holding yourself back from leading at your highest level? In this incredible conversation, I sit down with my good friend Craig Groeschel—someone I admire deeply, not just for what he’s accomplished, but for the man he is at his core. We get real about leadership—what it means to empower others, to listen, to ask better questions, and to build a culture that thrives whether you’re in the room or not. Craig shares candidly about the lessons he’s learned over nearly 30 years leading one of the largest churches in the country and launching the YouVersion Bible App that’s impacted millions.One of the things that really hit home in this episode is how Craig talks about the shift from thinking leadership is about you to realizing it’s about what happens when you’re not there. We break down how great leaders give authority, not just tasks, and how that’s the key to developing other leaders rather than creating followers. And yes, we go into the hard stuff—the criticism, the self-doubt, the moments where you feel like playing it safe. Craig doesn’t shy away from those moments, and neither do I in this conversation.  We also talk about something that’s been huge for me this year—surrender. Craig shares what it really means to give up control where it’s not ours to begin with, and why trusting God with the things we can’t shape frees us to lead with greater courage and faith. This episode isn’t about theory—it’s about real tools you can put into practice starting today.   How to shift from controlling to empowering so you can build leaders, not just followers. Why your effectiveness as a leader is measured by what happens when you’re absent, not present. The habits that anchor Craig’s leadership and how to create your own keystone habits. A fresh approach to giving and receiving feedback that builds trust and fuels growth. The difference between showing love and showing belief—and why your team (and family) needs both. How to handle self-doubt and stop playing it safe in your vision and leadership. What true surrender looks like in your leadership and life.   Here’s what you’ll take away from this episode:If this conversation moves you the way it did me, do yourself a favor—share it, take action on it, and let it change the way you lead. Max out your life, my friends!   👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈   → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ←  ➡️ INSTAGRAM   ➡️FACEBOOK   ➡️ LINKEDIN   ➡️ X   ➡️ WEBSITE      Get my exclusive Monday Motivation training in GrowthDay, the world’s #1 app for advanced mindset and personal development. Visit https://growthday.com/ed. This show is sponsored by GrowthDay.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Zero to speak to an advisor free of charge. This is The Admirement Show. All right, welcome back to the show everybody. So today's guest is, he's one of the men in the world I admire the most and I'm really honored that he's here today. There's so many things about him. This isn't a normal podcast for me you you guys, because I can tell you that he's a friend of mine, but I look up to him and I aspire to be more like him. I think it's probably the biggest compliment you can give another man is that you want to be more like him and I do with him. We're going to talk about leadership today everybody, even though we could talk about a bunch of different things with this man, but he's immensely qualified to do it. Just so you know, he leads one of the largest organizations in the United States and the

largest church, by the way. He's the senior pastor and founder of Life Church, but he's also a very successful businessman, but he doesn't like to talk about it a lot. And he founded this little app called the U-Version Bible app. The Bible app's only been downloaded about 500 million times and counting. So he knows a little bit about the digital space and creating a business as well. He's the host of the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast, which is good because his name is actually Craig Groeschel. So Craig, welcome to the show. Good to have you here. Hey Ed, man the the respect is

mutual. The first time we met, it took about five minutes for me to see why you're so successful and it's not just your muscles. It's the way you treat people and who you are as a person is something that I admire. And so it's a true blessing to be on with you. Thank you, brother. I told him I wore my Schmedium shirt today just to hang in there with him, because if you're on audio, which most of you are, he's the most jacked pastor in the world as well.

So we're going to talk about leadership today. And by the way, those of you listening, you go, I'm not even leading an organization. You do lead yourself and you are probably leading your family. And we're going to go there as well. But I want to ask you the hardest leadership question first, because it's the one when I get asked it, I have the toughest time answering, then we'll go to the softball stuff.

So here's the tough one. What is something you believed about leadership when you were younger that you no longer believe and it's kind of vastly different than when you were younger? I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question. The very first thing that comes to my mind is I used to believe that I was really good. Really? When I started out in leadership, I had way more confidence in myself in the wrong ways. And I thought I knew what I was doing.

And I recognized just how dangerous that was. I mean, I literally did. Some people aren't going to like that answer. I'll give you a different one, But that's the very first thing that comes to my mind is I used to think that I was really good and important. And I will follow up with that. What I've realized is, yes, I am effective today. And yes, I am important, but not in the ways that I

thought. That my importance isn't measured by what I know, but by who I empower. My importance isn't based on what happens when I'm present, but it's actually measured by what happens when, but by who I empower. My importance isn't based on what happens when I'm present, but it's actually measured by what happens when I'm absent. And so I really overvalued my own gifts, knowledge and presence. And I recognize that was a massive, massive, massive mistake.

I relate to that actually. I realized as I get older, how little I knew about leadership and currently know. I'm learning stuff all the time. Well you just said about what happens when you're absent though. I don't think I've ever heard somebody say that before. It's really, really true. He's also authored like 15 books you guys and he won't talk about it today but I will. So I just want to say this as he goes in. I have the workbook here. He has a book out right now called Benefit of Doubt and those of you that are believers, go grab that

book because we're going to talk about leadership today because he wants to serve the audience. But that book is incredible. I read it cover to cover. I have not read the workbook, but go ahead. I interrupted you. What were you saying? Yeah, no, I was just thinking about the whole absence thing.

For example, like, you know, when the first time I talked to you, I tried to understand what you do and it was so complex, so many different moving pieces and, you know, entire different realms of business. And so I'm like, well, how do you do it? And, you know, your answer as well as great people and great people and great people and such, and that's like the key in, in, in what I do. We have one church that meets in 45 different locations at 12 different states.

what I do, we have one church that meets in 45 different locations at 12 different states. And again, for example, this week I'll go and I'll visit one and I will not get up on the platform and talk. I've never done it. I won't speak there. And the reason is because if I do, I'm going to be sending a message and that is to the local pastor, move over little pastor, the main guys in town. And I don't want to do that. So what I'm going to do there is going to help him succeed by being strategically invisible and by serving him. The only thing I'll do is I'll love on people in the lobby, but I won't stand up. I won't greet people from the stage. I won't preach from the stage. So it's what happens when I'm not there or what I'm not doing that actually helps him succeed. And that's a really different thing than I recognized earlier. And so for me to really help other people be their best, I have to be absent. Same is true in hiring. We have a fairly

big staff. And so I'll ask people, which interviews do you think I'm involved in? Did I interview my assistant? Well, yes, of course. Did I interview our CFO who oversees hundreds of million dollars? Well, of course. The COO of U version, it'll be a billion apps this year, like literally a billion. Did I interview that person? Well, of course. the person who oversees all 75 youth pastors, yes, the person who oversees 10 campus pastor, of course, do I interview campus pastors? They oversee a whole church? Yes, on and on and on. And I get to the end of it and

say, the only person I interviewed in the last 10 years was my direct assistant, none of the other ones. Wow. And people are shocked by that. But again, in the early years, I interviewed and trained everybody, every single person. But as time goes on, the less I'm involved, the more it gives other people the chance to grow, the more that it says I'm not the most important, but there are other important people there. And so it's, and again, back to your first question is today I realized that the most effective parts of our ministry are the parts that happen without me. And that's, that's why,

you know, your answer early on when I was asking you like, how do you do it? You're like, well, it's all about the right people. And that a hundred percent is about the right people. But if I am, if I'm really involved in everything, that I'm keeping other people from being involved. And our retention rate here is unbelievable. And I'm blessed. My top three leaders have been with me for 28 of the almost 30 years, meaning the whole ride since I met them, they've stayed with me. Well, how do we do that? The answer is I let them lead, right? I am out of their way. They've got autonomy to create, to make decisions. You cannot build great leaders if you're controlling and you can't retain them if you're controlling. So I have to be the most empowering leader I can be. You're making me think,

you know, I probably younger and maybe even recently, I probably do suppress people's growth by being too involved from time to time. By the way, I told everybody in the introduction, this is gonna be an incredible conversation you guys. You don't get access to someone who's done what Craig's done and then have the ability to articulate the thoughts like Craig does. There's a handful. In fact, I'm gonna compliment you. I ran into, I'll say who it was, I ran into Zach Johnson, the golfer, our, my financial firm sponsors him and I ran into him this week and we were commiserating over like great leaders that we knew and we both landed on Davos Sweeney, the coach at Clemson.

And I said to him, isn't it interesting of all the CEOs that I've met to run these big companies, believe it or not, the great leaders I've met, I would put on the top of the list are ironically, they are guys who run college football teams, a few of them, basketball teams, and a couple of the pastors that I know. I would rank them ahead of the corporate CEO types that I've been around and he says that's actually been my experience as well and I was, I didn't say your name but I was thinking of yours, thinking of Chris Hodges, obviously John Maxwell from the past and others. So you said something interesting and I want to go to this point.

from the past and others. So you said something interesting and I want to go to this point. You did ask me a lot of questions when we first met. You almost wrestled the conversation from me because it's typically what I try to do and I want to ask you about leadership. We always think about casting a vision and speaking and stuff but how important has listening skills and asking the right questions been for you as a leader and how important you think it is overall? Well, you're right. You are difficult to talk to because you were asking so many questions. And I didn't want to talk about me because you know, you're at, you're at my life and I wanted to learn from you. I actually just did two entire podcast sessions on, um, asking questions and,

and you know, the, the, the quality of the information you get is a reflection of the quality of the information you get is a reflection of the quality of the questions that you ask. And what I've found in leadership is most of the time, Ed, when you walk into a room, people are expecting you to talk. And so as leaders, we feel that pressure. And so we say, hey, here's what we're gonna do today.

And if we're talking all the time, then we just know what we know. And it takes a lot of discipline for us to shut our faces and to ask questions. And then it takes a, it takes a really strategic and intentional question to actually get true answers because the more successful you become, the more people are going to tell you what they think that you want to hear. And that's deadly, deadly. And if we can't get truth out of people, I think as Andy Stanley said,

if we don't listen to people, we'll eventually be surrounded by people who have nothing to say. So true that a lot of us in our egos, we'll just talk all the time. And then we kind of create yes people, we create doers, not leaders. And it's the same in delegation. And then we kind of create yes people, we create doers, not leaders. And it's the same in delegation. If we just delegate tasks, like just go do this thing, we are creating followers. We're creating people who are told what to do, do what they're told to do. If instead we delegate authority, which is you have permission to go create something,

then we're creating leaders. And so I think, and here's something you do really, really, really well. I call it asking the third question, everybody asked the first one, like, Hey, tell me about yourself, what do you do? And then, and you're great at this. I mean, your interviews are some of the best, and then you'll, you'll hear something, you'll say, well, tell me more about that, then you get to the third question, which is kind of where the buried gold is. And you'll say, it's like your

story, like, why are you Ed Mylett? And the answer is because you're disciplined and strong and smart. Okay, yeah, actually, let's go a step below that. Well, it's because you were raised in a more difficult life and you had to overcome. So let's go a step below that. Your dad was an alcoholic, a drug addict, you had nothing and there was a will, fight, a drive in you that was born early on.

This helped shape everything about you. It's that third level that you tend to get to, that's where the magic is, that's where the gold is. And so as leaders, we have to work really, really, really hard to get beneath the surface, beneath even just like just the numbers. Like, what do the numbers say? Okay, we know what they say. Why do they say that? What's causing it? What are they telling us? We have to ask really, really hard questions to get great answers so that we can lead great organizations. It's so good. You know, the other thing, I was thinking of great leaders I've worked with, not only are you right about going deeper with

your questions, but I think people want to be listened to, especially in a one-on-one too. Like when I've done, when I've been done with great leaders, I'm like, what do they have in common? The person, they're tremendous listeners. I really feel like they listen to me. So not only do you get better answers, but there's some sort of connection I think that happens with a group of people or two people together when you've gone deeper than that. You know, I've always wanted to ask you,

because I have this. Now that I've got to know you a little bit, you are intense. You're an intense man. In fact, had we first met, I mean, you love Amy so much, you love your family, you love Jesus so much, all those things become apparent. But my first guess, had I met you at a concert or a grocery store, would not be pastor. Because you run pretty hot, you're an intense man. I'm wondering if in your life you had to learn as a leader to throttle that back a little bit or how to couch it. When I was young, my intensity pushed people away to some extent. I didn't relate to people that didn't want to run at my pace. I was gruff. I think I was abrasive. I don't think I was. I know I was. And over time, I think even having children, I was like, someone talked to my son the way I sometimes talk to people. That wouldn't be okay with me. Have you had that and did you have to

navigate that in your personality at all? It's 100% in every day. So if we go all the way back, I was a business major in college when I became a Christian and I then felt called to ministry, but I never thought to change my major. So I was just, I was buying rental properties in college. I ended up having four properties in college. Then I became a pastor and I got rejected for ordination because the first time they said, because you think too much like a business person, not enough like a pastor. And so I felt like a failure, like, okay, I need to think more like a pastor. I had no idea that you could be a great pastor and have a great business mind. And why shouldn't you? Right? I would say this about you, Ed, you're a businessman, but you kind of got a pastoral

heart with people, right? Meaning you can be a really good friend and care for people. So I would say this, I had some extremes and I started to be embarrassed by my extremes and make excuses for my extremes and manage my extremes. And then it took a little while longer to realize that greatness is born in the extremes. It's born in the extremes. Society tries to make you, let's make everybody a well-rounded person.

Well, you don't wanna hire someone everybody a well-rounded person. Well, you don't want to hire someone who's well-rounded, do you? You want to hire someone who is bad at almost everything and great at something. So true. And so I had to give myself both permission to press into my extremes. And at the same time, this is super important,

not to hold everybody else to the same standards I have for myself. Very, very important. So I'm going to be as weird, unique, different, and extreme as I can be without apology, but I cannot hold other people to that same... not me, they don't have the same gifts. They don't have the same support network I have, right? So they can't push it. It'd be unfair to push them. So I'll have to say, hey, here's what I'm gonna hold myself to, but you don't have to do this. Or there are times when my excitement level,

I do have to bring it back down a few notches and say, if I come in this hot, it's gonna be too much. And I have to have to know that. That is massively good advice you guys. I already know what I'm going to do with this. I can already tell you my son is going to get a chance to listen to this and my daughter before the world because I already this is so good. Let me ask you about criticism. So hey guys I want to jump in here for a second and talk about change and growth and you know by the way it's no secret how people get ahead in life or how they grow. And also taking a look at the future.

If you want to change your future, you got to change the things you're doing. If you continue to do the same things, you're probably going to produce the same results. But if you get into a new environment where you're learning new things and you're around other people that are growth oriented, you're much more likely to do that yourself. And that's why I love Growth Day. Write this down for a second. growthday.com forward slash ed. My friend, Brendon Bruchard has created the most incredible personal development and business app that I've ever seen in my life.

Everything from goal setting software to personal accountability, journaling horses, thousands of dollars worth of courses in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influences, like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there as well. I create content in there on Mondays where I contribute as do a whole bunch of other influence like the Avengers of influencers and business minds in there. It's the Netflix for high achievers or people that want to be high achievers so go check it out. My friend Brennan's made it very affordable, very easy to get involved. Go to growthday.com forward slash ed. That's growthday.com forward slash ed. The man who shaped US monetary

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There's things I've always wanted to know about you that I'm going to everybody listen to, but it's for me. Because you do, you are intense and you do have a high standard, you know, I've navigated this all my career, you know, like I try to be the Jesus CEO, you know, which I fail at 99.78% of the time or higher, but he did rebuke the apostles, right? There is rebuke, I mean, but there's a way to do it, I guess, right? And so, do you have any lessons for us as a leader, even with our children or in business, of how to give constructive feedback, criticism, etc.? Okay, I'm so glad you asked that. Like I would say here, at our church, we got, you know, like I said, really great people, we were named a couple of times by Glassdoor as the best place to work. And it's really, really hard to work here.

I would say one of the driving values that creates a great work environment is the ability to give and receive helpful feedback, hands down. You have to do it. And so it's massively important. When we interview people, what we'll do is we'll have them draw a topic and then they have to get up and give like a five minute talk on that topic. They think that we're trying to see how good they are at giving a talk.

That's part of it. But if we've got eight candidates, we have them all give a little talk and then we have them critique each other. And what we're trying to do is not see how good they are at giving a talk. What we're trying got eight candidates, we have them all give a little talk and then we have them critique each other. And what we're trying to do is not see how good they are given a talk. What we're trying to do, and they don't know this, is we want to know how good are you at giving and receiving feedback?

Because if you can't give it, you're not going to be valuable to us. If you can't receive it, you can't grow. So at the very, very beginning in the interview process, we're testing for the ability to give and receive feedback. Then we do something at our 45 campuses. We have, we call them stage drills where almost every week they'll draw a name and someone to get up on stage and they'll, they'll pitch something like, Hey, we want you to serve in life kids, or we want you to volunteer for this thing.

And then the rest of them give feedback. And again, it is not to help develop stage communicators. This is an exercise that teaches everybody to give and receive helpful feedback. In order for this to work, I have to lead the way in giving and receiving feedback. So before I ever give a message, I just gave a message last weekend, I will, I promise you, I had five, six or seven different groups of people come in my office. Really? I talked through the message with them on the front side and I said, what would you cut? What do you like? How close is this to being done?

Okay, you're a 23 year old single girl. What are you seeing that I don't see? Where's my humor not worth? And so I asked all these questions, I get feedback on the front end, and then it helps me to do better in the message. Everybody knows that I receive feedback, and if I model it, then it'll be true for our organization. If I don't, we have no potential for growth. We have no potential for growth. And here's the bottom line, you're an athlete,

so you understand that. If I hired you on the team and I gave you feedback, do you think I care about you or not? If I don't give you any feedback, I don't care. Yep. Or believe in you or I don't believe in you. If you're great, I'm giving you more feedback.

Why? Because I believe in you. And so we try to help people see that this is, is always an expression of love and care and belief. If I've given up on somebody, I'm not giving them feedback, I'm just trying to get rid of them. If I care about them, I'm giving them feedback. And so that is, and admittedly, kind of the emerging generation, we have a lot of younger staff members. It's a little bit more difficult for them. And so what we have to do is we are literally teaching,

here's how you give it, here's how you receive it. And we even teach like say, thank you for that, because you obviously care. And then when you apply it, you come back and say, here's how it made a difference. For example, a staff member gave me an example of something to add in the message. And so I did it.

Then I came back to their office this week and said, Hey, I just want you to know what you told me last week. I added it and then that celebrates the feedback. So it is indescribably essential for in an organization to be healthy, to have great feedback. Yeah. And by the way, modeling it, that term you just took, you know, said is modeling it yourself. That's the standard in the culture. Why is it harder with younger people? Is it these times with all the stuff on social media

and they're sensitive or what did you mean when you said that like a harder with the younger people or just because they're new to the world? Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. You know, one is like I'm a Gen Xer. And so we were last key kids, our parents basically threw us out of the house and we were on our own. And so there was just a sense

of, we just, you know, by nature, we were tougher. But then what happened, then then we became the helicopter parents. And so we because our parents weren't there, we were and we became so controlling, and and so protective that everybody got a participation ribbon and, and everyone's told, told they're great. And that's just not the most loving thing you can do. There's times when you need to say, you're actually not very good at that.

Let's go do something else. You know? And so I don't blame the younger generation for being more sensitive. I blame my generation for being more sensitive. I blame my generation for, by robbing the emerging generation of some of the things that helped create a resilient spirit.

So, you know, we all have strengths and weaknesses and there's so many good qualities with, with Gen Z coming up, really, really qualities I like and admire. But one of the developmental areas is to help them understand that, hey, when I'm giving you feedback, it's actually because I care about you. And once you get better, I'm not criticizing, I'm not tearing you down. I actually see greatness in you. I'm helping try to pull it out. So there's just, what I find is in that generation, sometimes we have to give a little bit more context for them to understand it. And then they get really passionate about it. Yeah. By the way, I do think this younger generation wants to contribute and serve

as much as the generation I've seen. They want to be a part of something. Very mission-minded. So many good qualities. And Gen Z is getting a little scrappier too. They're seeing their older brothers and sisters broke and struggling and they're going like, I don't want to be that I'm I want to save some money. I want to work hard. And so it's there's cycles in every generation, right? You're right. You know, I was, uh, my, my, both my children, Max and Bella were here for

Easter. They're both Bella home from college and Max home from golf and they're both here and I was thinking about being a leader. I knew we were going to talk and I had already wanted to go in a little bit of a direction with leadership with you on the show and then you confirmed it this morning. It was almost like kind of an answer to prayer and I'll tell you what happened this weekend. I was with them both. This is personal but I always do this on the show. My kids know I love them and the people that work with me know I love them and care about them.

It's something I'm pretty good at expressing. Belief though is a different thing than love. It's correlated, but it's different. And my daughter came over and she just passed her real estate test and she's doing great and we had a little session together and she walked away and I'm like, check the box. She knows I believe in her so deeply, the way I communicate with her. My son and I then had a different session together. I'll call it a session long conversation Clearly knows his dad loves him, but we were kind of going back and forth on what he's doing

And when he walked away, you know, you just kind of watch your kids sometimes walk away from you. It's your baby and I went I Wonder am I doing as good a job as he's gotten older at him knowing his dad believes in him, as I did when he was younger? Is that box fully checked? Like this young man goes out in the world, my dad loves me, he knows, my dad believes in me. The man I look up to the most, which is usually your father, believes in me deeply. And I just had this sense in my spirit, not enough, not enough. And I made this mental note, fix that, pour into him more belief, right? What do you do as a, is it the same as a dad, as a granddad, as a

business leader? Are you cognizant of that distinction of belief and or anything that you're conscious of doing to, to pour into people belief as opposed to just, I care about you and I love you. So I'm really glad you asked that Ed, and I'm going to ask you this. Do you remember what my favorite podcast of yours is still to this day? I assume it's the one with my kids. A hundred percent. That's what you told me on the voice note.

You told me on the voice note. Yeah. Yes, it is. And you've had some fantastic ones, but who you are as a parent and your relationship with your kids, that's, I mean, that's a bigger blessing than owning an island. Sure is. Okay. That's a really, really big deal.

And so, you know, you ask about how do you communicate belief and not just love. As a parent, it's interesting, the father-son dynamic is often different than the father-daughter dynamic. The son, so often he wants to please you based on how he performs. And he's going to, you know, your son's going to measure himself up against you. And that's a pretty tough tool of comparison. And so one of the things that we have to do is help people know that we value not just what they do, but who they are. And in work and as parents, we almost always go to the do, like, hey, great game, or you did a great job on that project.

And I am so biased to performance that I have to stop over and over again as a dad and as a leader and say, they don't want to be just loved by what they do because if they are, then we're using them, but they want to be valued for who they are. And so like today is administrative assistant day and today we're recording this. So I wrote my assistant a note because her love language is words of encouragement. And I tried to talk about who she is as a person more than what she does.

Every day she does things that she runs my world, and it's amazing. What she does is valuable, but who she is is meaningful. And so it's we have to, the more driven we are, the more biased we are toward action. But the best way to communicate care and value is not by celebrating action, but by celebrating character, who they are. And so that as a dad, like, especially with my sons, my daughters,

there's more of a nurturing relationship. This natural, my sons, I daughters, there's more of a nurturing relationship that's natural. My sons, I love them like crazy, but I know they're going, dad, are you proud of what I did? And so what I try to do is say, I just can't, I'm so proud of who you are. And then talk about the qualities,

like the fact that you're working for purity, the fact that you really are striving to be a godly man. And I mean, they're crushing it in ministry. Their numbers and impact are great, but I try to go to the who before the do. And it's effective, but it's hard to do, especially for people with success goal-oriented mindsets. Yeah, they're goal oriented mindsets. Yeah. They're so performance oriented. I'm going to stop telling you how good everything is.

We're just going to keep going, but shoot, man, this is so good. Um, how do you, uh, you and I are both habits people, right? We're both habitual and the reason that that matters is at scale habits matter under pressure habits matter and under and under fatigue habits matter, right? Let's talk leadership habits for a second. Are there a few that stand out to you that if you don't do these things habitually, you know, and some of them guys want to avoid people want to avoid in general, ladies and men want to avoid as a leader.

What are some of those things that for you, like these are just cornerstone habits and you can't avoid them. What are some of those? So let me talk first general and then I'll get specific. And it was Charles Duhigg who wrote The Power of Habit. He talked about Keystone Habits. Fascinating story, I think of Alcoa Steel, a company that was struggling.

They brought in a CEO who said, this is gonna be the safest place to work. And they all thought, well, that's kind of dumb. And but it'll change. Well, he did that for months and months and months. And what they didn't realize is, when they tried to become safe, it changed how they hired how they interviewed the systems they created the processes that involve their communication, and suddenly they became profitable. Why? Because they had one habit that created lots of other positive habits. And so what you know in your life, Ed,

and everybody listening is there are certain habits that if we have this one or two or three things in place, then they compound into other really positive habits. And the opposite is true. If we're not doing that one or two things, then negative things happen. And I joke around about my keystone habit being flossing, which is silly and it kind of is, but if I floss because I hate flossing, it triggers something in my mind that says, wow, you do what's right even when you don't like it.

I'm a disciplined person. So therefore I get up earlier, I eat right in the morning, because I'm disciplined, I do my Bible study, I get to work earlier than anybody, I work harder, I come home in a good mood, because I was productive, my wife loves me, we have six kids. Why? Because I floss, and I'm slightly exaggerating. But if I don't floss, I don't feel disciplined. And so I might sleep in later, don't have time to do my Bible study, don't prepare a good breakfast so I pick up a donut on the way. I don't feel as healthy so I don't exercise. I have a bad day, I come home, I'm not as good a husband and my wife doesn't like me or whatever. And again, I'm obviously exaggerated, but not by much. There are certain things that have compounding positive or negative effects.

And so as a leader, for me, it starts in the morning and that you're going to find that almost every time, I guarantee you, you did not sleep until 930 today. I bet my entire life on it that you were probably more productive before seven o'clock this morning than many people are in the whole day. And so what you want to do is you want to decide what are the habits in your life that create the other positive habits. And then you develop them. They're not going to be the same for anybody. But for me, you know, they're like, exercising is as spiritual as Bible study. I have to do it. It's for my mind, my soul, my marriage. It's for my relationship with God. It's a way I honor God with my body. If

I'm not going to honor him with my mind, but with my, I'm going to listen to something today. I was listening to one of your podcasts last night. Why? Because I'm developing my mind. And so, I have a lot of little habits that have created a lot more habits. And it's not because I'm a disciplined person. The reality is I'm undisciplined. I love donuts. I love sleeping in. I love vegging, I love being lazy. So I have to choose the right behaviors that create the right results. And then you learn to love them. When I started eating healthy 15 years ago, I didn't like it. Well, now I don't like the junk food I used to love because your appetite

changes for what's good if you start with the right habits. So I can be specific if you want, but that's kind of a general thought process. No, no, no. I'm a big believer. Charles has been on the show a couple times in this Keystone habit concept as well. And ironically, this is no joke, you guys, we did not confer on this and I've never heard him say this before. I have a podcast where I talk about my catalyst habit is flossing. I'm not exaggerating. It's a fact. It's because I don't like doing it. It's tedious. I used to feel like you just get away with not doing it. Just brush your teeth, whatever, right? And then because I don't want to do it, I do it.

And then that kind of moved into something cold in the morning. I don't want to do it. I don't do it for any anti-inflammatory properties. I do it because I don't want to do it. And I now put myself, as you've said, in the category of a freak. I'm doing things other people aren't willing to do. I am this discipline person and it just sets me on this path. I always want to ask you, such a big organization, I want to kind of take a turn. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So you know guys, men today face immense pressure and they got to be able to perform provide they got to keep it all together I know I'm a guy right and stuff isn't easy

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with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash EdShow. That's BetterH-E-L-P dot com slash EdShow. So you're probably smart enough to know when something isn't working. And for me, when I'm off, even my cognitive function, I always kind of decide what's going on with my gut. So when there's things going on like you can't focus at work, your stomach's bothering you, it feels like you've got kind of symptoms like that, your gut impacts everything from your digestion to your brain function and your energy levels. So when your energy is draining you got to ask yourself why. That's why I love Just Thrive probiotic. Just Thrive

is one of the only probiotics clinically designed to arrive in your gut a hundred percent alive. Try Just Thrive Probiotic for 90 days and see how much better you feel. If you don't feel a difference, they'll refund every penny. Even if the bottle is empty, you just pay for shipping. Start your 90-day free trial today at JustThriveHealth.com and use promo code ED to save 20% on your first bottle. That's JustThriveHealth.com promo code, ED. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure,

or prevent any disease or condition. These statements and information are not a substitute for or an alternative to seeking care from your healthcare providers. How do you keep culture? This is one for the business people in here. How do you keep culture at scale? You know, you got a six-person group or when you first started the church, there's 15, 20, 40, 50

people there. Controlling the culture is doable, right? If you're cognizant of it, if you're even cognizant of culture. Some leaders aren't even cognizant of culture at all, but at scale and then digitally often, like how you've been growing in addition to the general locations, that has to have been a challenge for you. So what would your answer, because I get asked this a lot in my business coaching and I don't know that I have a great answer for it. So it's very challenging. So Ed, we went from one location to maybe 11, 12, 13. And we entered at a really bad season where the

culture got away from us and there were subcultures. They were not healthy. And the challenge is, you know, what is your culture? Your culture is a combination of what you create and what you allow. Period. That's all it is. It's your standards.

What do we celebrate? What do we tolerate? And everybody has a culture. Not every culture is created intentionally. Some of them are, you know, we come in, we turn the lights on, we listen to whoever's screaming, we solve problems that we see, turn the lights off, go home. That's not a healthy culture, but it is a culture.

And so if you don't like your culture, you have to change what you're tolerating, what you're creating. We got to where we had like, I don't know, 11, 12, 13 locations and it was, they were not consistent. Some of them were not healthy. They were really bad behaviors in there. And I thought we'd lost it. Like, I don't know how we're going to ever get this back. And what I realized is that great cultures never happened by accident.

They're always intentional in what creates the culture. we're going to ever get this back. And what I realized is that great cultures never happen by accident. They're always intentional. And what creates the culture? Well, what we believe determines what we do. What we believe determines what we do. How we think determines how we behave. So we have to over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, drive the values over and over and over and over again drive the values that make us who we are. What values do we have? Well, you know, there's a lot that goes into creating values. A lot of people have words. I like to create statements because statements create emotion. So in church, evangelism is a word that means reaching the loss. We don't say evangelism. We say, we'll do anything short of sin to reach people who don't

know Christ. To reach people no one's reaching, we'll have to do things no one's doing. We'll do anything short of sin to reach people who don't know Christ. To reach people no one's reaching, we'll have to do things no one's doing. That creates emotion. We'll say this, the church does not exist for us. We are the church and we exist for the world. And so we are not spiritual consumers, we're spiritual contributors. The church doesn't exist for us, we're the church, we exist for the world.

We say these things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to change how we think, because if we do not, what happens? Vision leaks and culture drifts. Vision leaks, here's what we're about. And after a while people people forget culture drifts. The cultures never drifts toward better by accident. Why?

Because we take the easiest path. We take the road of least resistance. We move towards what's easy, creating a great cultures heart. How do we do it? Well, three things. We have to be very, very clear about what we expect. Here's what we expect. And then we have to reward it when we see about what we expect. Here's what we expect.

And then we have to reward it when we see it and we correct it when we don't. That's it, that's how you create a culture. Here's what we expect, here's what we believe, here's what we value. And we reward it when we see it, we correct it when we don't, and that is in many ways our job.

That's a big part of it. Huge. Is we are creating the beliefs and the values that drive the behaviors. And then we want aligning systems and we want the right people. And we want to make sure resource allocation is consistent with all these things. What is great leadership? It's getting the right people, it's creating the right culture,

it's developing the right systems, it's allocating resources in the right way. And of those big things, you can't be successful in any of them without a healthy culture. See everybody, you forget for a while that you're listening to a pastor and I've submitted this over and over and over again. You show me anything that's flourishing in this country, in this world today. I don't care if it's a church, a scout troop, right? A business, you name it, a sports team. I'm gonna show you something being led by a leader, a real leader and a group of leaders that they've developed. And that's what you're hearing here

today. Period. End of story. For fun, and too, just as a pastor, if I can just talk about my faith and we share the same belief system, if you ever look at Jesus through a leadership lens, tell me what you see. Okay, he's the son of God, he was sinless, he died and rose again to save the world. That's the heart of the story. What did he pull off? He recruited 12 people that others overlooked. He imparted kingdom values. He created a kingdom culture. He empowered, he delegated. How did he delegate? He said,

I'm gonna go away. I'm gonna send you out, go into all the world, preach the gospel, baptize the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. He gave them the what, he gave them the where, he did not give them the how. He didn't delegate task, he delegated authority. Oh my goodness. He went away, he sent the Holy Spirit, and here we are 2000 years later in an organization known as the church with still doing the work of God. Why? Because Jesus came and selected some people, empowered them, gave them the vision, here's

why I came. I didn't come for this reason, I came for this reason. Here's the vision, here's the kingdom cultures, here's how we love here, how we treat people. He released them. That's leadership. Yeah, so good. And by the way, everybody, if you don't know the story, this was a ragtag army too. He didn't pick what everybody would think was the perfect resume and the perfect background and the perfect history there. Every religious organization would have rejected that. That's right. Exactly. Every single one. And so that's why I

don't recruit from the normal religious institutions. I recruit business minded people who love Jesus and we recruit from the church, bring people up from within. And that's again, whatever you do, don't limit it to what you do. I can learn, I learn all day long from people like Ed and apply it to ministry. People in business can learn from guys that do what I do. Great principles are transferable. And I hate it when people try to put themselves in a box.

Yeah, I'm so with you. I had something happen to me when I was younger. Because the other thing about Jesus, maybe my favorite story, you guys have to understand this. Like the night before he knew he was going to be crucified, what did he do? He washed their feet. It's one of the most emotional stories that I'm not really good at even telling. Because I get so emotional about it because I was so much not that person when I was a young leader.

And what you said about the church is here to serve, not to be served. The leader is here to serve, not to be served. And that's something that most people that are leaders have backwards. And he knew he was going to go and he knew that not all these dudes in there necessarily even had his back, but he washed their feet. And to me, that's just the symbol of what I should be aspiring to do. I don't do very well, but it's my example.

You do that well, you're what I call a youth-centered leader. Meaning you don't have to do this podcast. You've created wealth, you're doing this to serve people. And if anyone ever meets with you one-on-one, they'll be more impressed with you in person than they are from a distance because you care about people. And that's fundamentally what we have to do as leaders is we have to be youth-centered leaders. The moment that I think that the church

exists for me is a moment I should be wiped off the face of the earth, right? I'm not inviting people to come serve my vision. That's selfish. You know, thankfully I'm serving a vision much higher than my own, but I'm inviting people to come and use their gifts to serve other people and make a difference. And that's what you do really well. And so as't ever, you know, as your friend, I will not let you sell yourself short. Appreciate it. I do. I thank you for saying that. I will accept that. Although we both know I have a long way to go on that. We all have, we all have a long way to go, but it's, you know, you care.

That matters. It shows. Do you, um, apologize? One of the things I wish like in our politics, no one's specific everybody, but man would I follow a leader who says, hey, I got it wrong, I'm sorry. My intentions were right, but I'm going to make a correction here. I was just at a business meeting. I won't name the company, but they had rolled out a compensation plan the year before and the leader got up. He spoke before me and he said I'm excited about you know the man that's about to speak but he goes I just need

to do something here and it was a celebration was in Hawaii was it why no we were in Cabo so they were celebrating and he goes I owe you all an apology we rolled out a plan last year it didn't work it's my fault I called the wrong shot I got this one wrong and I just want to tell you that we're going to try to get it right now. And I thought, man, I'd run through a wall for this guy. I would run through a wall for this guy. I don't see enough leaders. I almost feel like as a leader, my opinion is like,

you ought to give credit for the successes and take blame for the losses. And that mean it sincerely. Have you had a situation where you had to get up and say, hey, I'm blue this one. Can you speak a specific situation and what's your philosophy on that? So, you know, way too many times. You know, one of the biggest that I just apologize in front of our whole team for is in 2019, the weight and pressure was exceeding my capacity. And so for years, I was kind of ahead of it and always healthy and I just wasn't in a good place. And so I was starting to

work on getting better then and then 2020 hit. And you know, for every leader, that was just a ridiculously tough time. For pastors in particular, people spiritualize their politics and politicize their faith. And it was, it was ugly everywhere. It was ridiculously ugly here because you were woke and liberal. If you had masks on, you were arrogant and hateful if you didn't, and you didn't have faith. And so everything was charged and I just stopped leading with boldness.

And I literally, for the first time ever, I had my foot on a brake, not the accelerator. And I didn't even know it because I was so shell shocked and I kind of felt like I was just dodging bullets and you never lead well when you're afraid. It took me probably a year to acknowledge that I shell-shocked and I kind of felt like I was just dodging bullets. And you never lead well when you're afraid. It took me probably a year to acknowledge that I had been completely ineffective in my preaching, in my leadership. I wasn't casting vision. So I just apologize and said,

I have been leading afraid. I've been leading not to get shot. And, you know, as a Christian, man, if you're not getting shot at, you're not doing it right. And as a leader, you know, if you're not getting criticized, you're not doing much at all. If you're not hurting, you're not leading. I'll just say that. If you're not hurting, you're not leading well. And I was trying to lead not to hurt. So I apologized. And I mean, I kind of broke down. I actually did, I cried because I was really embarrassed by it. And did people lose respect for me? I mean, maybe somebody, if you did, but for the most part, people are like going, okay, yeah, I've seen myself in that too.

And I think the thing I tell people all the time is we feel so much pressure to be right, to be smart, to have it all together. And people are not looking for that. They would rather somebody be genuine, transparent, apologize, be real. And it's kind of tweetable, but I just say, you know, people would rather follow a leader is always real than one who's always right. And that's just so, so true is, is really good. We don't have to be perfect, but we do have to be honest. And that goes a long way in building trust. And trust is the most valuable commodity and quality we have as leaders.

Without it, we have nothing. Oh, good. I was... that thing you just said about if you're not hurting, you're not leading, you have said that before. And I know you've said it before because I don't know when it was. I don't know if it was a year or two ago, I was going through a really tough time in one of our businesses. Just people had left and it was just bad and I was in an airport and I was calling some difficult shots and I turn on my phone and it's you and you were live

preaching that Sunday and that was your message. It was one of the messages that day. If you're not hurting, you're really not leading and it just made me feel, I don't know, comfortable in the position I was in and not in such riddled with so much self-doubt. I think a lot of times a leader like this is really awkward. It creates more doubt, at least it did in me and that gave me a great deal of comfort during that time. I got two last questions for you. By the way, we go nine hours, obviously, today. Today's show is sponsored by Strawberry.me. So you know this, I'm a big believer in coaching, especially when it's from a reliable source, and I think most people should have some interaction with somebody who's helping them get better in their life. So if you're waking up every day,

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You can be held accountable if you want to. Knowing you have a dedicated support staff, a coach behind you every step of the way. Instead of relying on guesswork or waiting for the right time, I've had a personal coach for a long time and it's helped me tremendously in my life. You know, I love that Chinese proverb, if you want to know the road ahead, ask those coming back. That's what a coach can do for you. They've got the directions many times in your life. Go to strawberry.me.ed and claim your $50 credit. That's strawberry.me.ed. Have you had times, and I mean like, like even recently, where the adversary, the enemy kind of creeps in and gives you a little bit of doubt, either in you or your vision or in something important

in your life. The last year or two, a couple things I thought I wanted to do, and I'm pretty convinced now that I'm on the other side of it, it was just the enemy sowing a little seed of doubt in me and I think I kind of gave into it a little bit. You know, I didn't push through something because I doubted myself. I just doubted my judgment even maybe in something. You ever have that as a leader and what have you done about it if you have? Yeah, this is hard to say,

but I think like in the leaders that I lead with and some amazing people, men and women, I think I battle with doubt more than any of them. I think I battle with doubt in myself. I battle with having a lack of faith in what's possible. And so on one hand, I have this enormous amount of faith in people. I have a faith in God. I have the faith in God to save people that are very, very broken. Tremendous amount of faith. But I don't always have the faith that we'll be able to, for example, you version, when

we started it years ago, Bible app, they're like, hey, let's create this app and give it away. Okay, great. But can we afford to give it away forever? So I was terrified of not being able to keep up. And so recently it kind of came to my attention. I was talking to a guy in IT who said, yeah, at our last big gathering, it felt like we were celebrating the past, but we weren't really pushing hard in the future and I was like going, Oh, I think you're right that we were

celebrating a lot of what had happened, but I wasn't really casting a big vision for the future. And I kind of realized I've been doing it for almost 30 years and I just don't want to cast a vision where we fail. And that's just stupid because we've been failing for 30 years. We've just been failing forward. You know, we've been, we've been, we, we, we shoot for something and we hit it. Sometimes we don't other times, but we're always shooting. And I was a little bit afraid to shoot because I just didn't know if we could achieve it. And so I, but bottom line is, um, I played it a little bit too safe because I've been afraid and maybe my inability to help us get there. And I'm working

through that now, but it's been a process. And it's been humbling to say, like, you know, if you leave something that's grown for a long time, and people consider it big, then you you think, well, okay, we're pretty successful, whatever the reality is, we haven't done anything yet. I mean, like the impact we're having on the world is like next to nothing compared to what's possible. And so I don't want to look at what we've done. I want to look at what we could do.

And I've been afraid to do that and I'm growing out of that as we speak. Meaning I'm going public with some goals that are going to be really, they're bold, they're bold, and we need them. I need them. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. And a lot of times as leaders, we want to lead by what we know is doable without faith, and I'm not going to do that anymore. Okay, are you trying to lead me into my last question? By the way, that was my exact issue too. I think if I'm really being honest with myself and a lot of you that are leaders would as well, it's like, uh, you know, I've had pretty good winning streak here. Not so sure. I want to break it up with a really hard one.

It's easy to risk when you don't have as much to lose. It's true. When I had nothing. Now I'm like, I don't want to fall on my face in front of everybody. Everyone thinks I'm kind of a guru. I've got everybody fooled right now. Like what? I'm not gonna have a big loss. Same exact thing. So you led me into my last question. Now you know why he's one of the people I admire most. And by the way, actually you don't, because most of the things that I admire about him are the things that you wouldn't even see in

a podcast today. But one thing that's happened to me in my life the last few years, maybe 10 years, but particularly the last five, is God has brought some men into my life that truly like Craig, that make me want to make my walk with Jesus much more close and just be a better man. And one of the qualities that you have, and it's a really unique nuance, and I want to kind of give you the floor on the last question about it, it's great to have, and we'd even get into vision today, but have vision and have standards and have culture and have difficult conversations and be able to apologize and have belief and love people and all the things we've talked about and have this plan and you're going to be bold and you're about to come bold again with something. And then to surrender and to say,

Jesus, this is yours, Father, please. And for me, as much as I've always loved God, I've always had this issue with total surrender. And this year, it's my word for the year, it's been something I'm really in practice. In fact, every time I pray, every single time I've prayed this year, I think there's been a conversation we've had together about my surrender and giving him my burdens and my challenges and trusting his course in my life, trusting him fully surrendering to his will with my plan, so to speak. And so I'd like to just talk about that. The pastor you can be a little bit more present here if you like, but like, what about for you? Like, and what would you say to somebody who's, they've got a burden in their life right now, or a struggle, or a block, or a big vision they're excited about, but nervous about?

What about surrendering? Am I using the right word, do you think? And what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think, I think whether it's the right word or not, I think it's super important word. And I would say too, and I mean this super sincerely, when we first met, I admired who you were as a person and kind of what you're doing. It's really special. But you had then what I would call like the earlier stages of spiritual passion and development. And to see that it's just like you've really, really grown in your boldness and just sincerity of your faith. And so that's so great. And I would say to people like, doesn't matter where you start, just start, right? If you're still cussing every third word, that's a good place to start. We don't need to clean it

up before we come to Jesus, come to Him as we are and let Him work on us. I guess what I'm trying to say is He's doing a good work in you. It's really obvious. He's doing a good work in you. And then I would say the part of surrender, this is what's really interesting as people of faith is how much of our life calling success mission are we going to create and do? And how much of it is God's work in us through us? And there's always this beautiful mix, like even the church, there's a verse that says, Paul did one thing, he watered or planted, and Paul's watered, and God built the church. So what happened?

Well, one guy planted, one guy watered, and God built the church. So God didn't build it without the guy planting, without the water. So we're co-labors, we work together. So ultimately, I think that having a big vision or any type of vision is God honoring. Without a vision, the people perish. What are we fighting for if we don't have something to fight for? And our part matters a lot, a lot, meaning if you're faithful, the little God will trust you with more. And ultimately, all we can do is what we can do. And at some point, we have to surrender

to the things we cannot control. You don't always have the power to control. But you always have the power to surrender. If you're dealing with a health issue, what can you do? You can eat better, you can take the supplements, you can exercise, you can work on your mind, you can go to the right doctors, those things you can control, but you don't have the power to control everything, you can do what you can do. And then you trust God with what you can't do. And so I joke around about you trust God with what you can't do.

And so I joke around about having a God box that there are certain things that if they're within my control, I'm going to do them. And I think God would call me responsible to do them. He can't choose my diet. He can't choose when I go to bed for me. I'm going to choose my friends. I'm going to choose what I read today, I'm going to choose what I do and don't do, how I think. But there are some things that are above my pay grade. And so if I need to write that down, some things go in the God box. And when they go in the God box, I'm going to put them in there and leave them in there. And symbolically, a lot of people have done that.

They've created a real God box and said, if I can shape it, I'm going to shape it. But if I cannot, I am going shape it, but if I cannot, I am gonna surrender it to God and say, ultimately, his ways are higher than my ways, he is always good, his plans for us are always for our benefit. He's working in all things to bring about good to those who love him and are called

according to his purpose. So that means we're in a really good place, Ed. So that means we're in a really good place, Ed. I mean, we're in a really good place that we have today to love people, to serve people, to honor God. If he gives it tomorrow, it's not a guarantee. We can't control tomorrow, but we can control today. So I will shape what I can control. I'll surrender what I can't. And no matter what, I'm going to try to grow in my trust in God every single day. Amen. This was extraordinary. This was extraordinary. Holy smokes. Hey, guys listening, would you like me to have Craig on again? I think I know the answer. I'll tell you what I'll do.

I will do that. We need to extend this conversation and here's what you all should do. You should just, and he's not going to tell you to do it, so I will. It's got 15 books. The most recent one is The Benefit of Doubt. Okay? Get the one, go look at his titles, get the one you think that grabs your heart right away. The other thing you should do, you should be involved with Craig Groeschel. Listen to his podcast. I think the first thing he'd want you to do is go to that YouVersion Bible app, and then you get involved with the guy above him and the most high. You always talk of the power of one more, then there's the ultimate one, the only one you need, and you're going to find him in that Bible app. And then of course,

there's Life.Church as well, but you ought to follow his work. He's one of the most unique beings on this planet right now, and somebody that I told you in the beginning, I look up to and you got a little flavor as to why today, this was an all-timer brother. Seriously. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for, thank you for your friendship. And, um, um, man, thank you. Thank you for just investing in all of us. Like we, there, we're, there are millions of us out there that grow and get better because of your work and so it's just, it's an honor to be in your orbit. It's, you're really being kind today but thank you

and by the way when I do see you, we should probably you know do the lunch thing but what we should really do is get a workout in together because I want to see what's real and what's not real here because the guns are legit. I want to see what's real and what's not real here because the guns are legit. I want to see what we got, what we're working with. Let's do it. All right, you guys, I don't have to ask you to do this today. I know you're going to share this episode, but I just want to say God bless you and max out your life. This is The Ed Myron Show.