THE ED MYLETT SHOW - Protecting Ourselves From Predators w/ Chris Hansen

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

How do you distinguish between good people in your life and predatory or bad people? I’m talking about in every area of your life. This week’s guest, Chris Hansen, strikes an incredibly emotional chord with me. You may or may not know that right after I got out of college, the first place I worked at was in a group home for abused and neglected boys. The time I spent with those boys had a PROFOUND effect on me, and as a result, I’m FIERCELY PROTECTIVE when it comes to SAFEGUARDING CHILDREN against all kinds of hurtful behaviors they may encounter. Chris is an eight-time EMMY AWARD-WINNING veteran investigative reporter, best known for his Dateline NBC segments, TO CATCH A PREDATOR. He has also hosted several other criminal investigations shows and currently produces a podcast and content on a YouTube channel that draws huge audiences each week. Sexual abuse of minors is particularly evil, and it happens far too often. That’s why it’s essential to listen to what Chris has to say. In fact, I believe Chris is the single MOST QUALIFIED PERSON there is to speak about dealing with sexual predators and steps you can take to PROTECT yourself and your children from these types of people. In addition to talking about his work on To Catch a Predator, Chris and I spend a lot of time on PRACTICAL AND VALUABLE INFORMATION you need to know about different types of predators. We get into how to spot an online predator, whether you’re a parent, a teen, or a young single adult engaging in chat rooms and DATING apps. How about in business? How do you know if someone’s got your best interest in mind or if they are setting you up for some predatory behavior to take advantage of you? Chris also goes into detail about what GROOMING is and how widespread it is in the online world. We cover the first steps a predator will take, recognizing this behavior and stopping it before it leads to other dangerous predatory practices. REMEMBER THIS. PREDATORS ALWAYS PURSUE THE MOST VULNERABLE TARGETS. As Chris explains, you must PROTECT your children and others by having AGE-APPROPRIATE DISCUSSIONS, DRAWING BOUNDARIES, and CREATING SAFER MEET-UPS especially when using dating apps. Online grooming extends to financial predators as well. Chris and I have both seen it many times. Stealing and bleeding money from vulnerable people online is a lot more prevalent than you might think, especially for older people. This isn’t always an easy subject to talk about, but through his work, Chris Hansen continues to RAISE AWARENESS and keep it in the public’s eye. It’s IMPORTANT to listen this week and hear what Chris has to say. 👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈  → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ← ▶︎ INSTAGRAM ▶︎ FACEBOOK  ▶︎ LINKEDIN ▶︎ TWITTER ▶︎ WEBSITE  

This is the Ed Milage Show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. My guest today is an eight-time Emmy Award winner. And you probably best know him from Date Line or Catch a Predator. But he's the first guest I've ever had on him on my show, where I'm glad to be introducing him to all of you and not having him introducing himself to me because the last thing you want to hear if you're in someone's living room or kitchen is hi, I'm Chris Hansen, grab a seat.

So I'm super glad that I'm the one introducing him and he's got a podcast out right now called Predators I've Got. I'm super fascinated by this man. It's kind of a giveaway as to who it is. So Chris Hansen, welcome to the show. And thank you very much. I suppose you're going to tell me to have a seat for this. That's kind of a giveaway as to who it is. So Chris Hansen, welcome to the show. And thank you very much. I suppose you're gonna tell me to have a seat for this. That's right.

That's exactly what we're doing. And I'm fascinated by you, Chris. The work you've done your life, you've really had a unique seat, so to speak, and a viewpoint in the world that's really unique only to you. I'm curious to begin with, because now everybody, they're recognizing that voice and if they're

watching this, they recognize the face. And I'm curious, when you started to do catch a predator in the day line work, what preparation did you have? In other words, were you qualified? Did you feel qualified to sit behind the scenes and then walk into someone's living room and have that conversation with somebody? Did you have preparation to do that? to sit behind the scenes and then walk into someone's living room and have that conversation with somebody. Did you have preparation to do that?

Well, nothing from a therapist standpoint or any experience and law enforcement except that you have done and invested in reporting for several years running up to that both at NBC and in local news beforehand, but nothing can prepare you for that very first to catch a predator episode. When I pitched it to Daedeline, it was never meant to be a continuing series. It was meant to be one off story for Daedeline, exposing men who go online to sexually assault children and we had become aware of Proverted Justice,

the online watchdog group, which at that time would put decoys into chat rooms and if they got hit on and there was a solicitation by an adult, they would merely post that person's identity on their website and occasionally cooperate with law enforcement to help inner prosecution. I thought once I became aware of the vorigesis that it could be very compelling

if we could combine and collaborate with their ability to be decoys online with our ability to wire a house from hidden cameras and microphones. I thought it would be eye-opening. And I did doubt though, whether or not we'd see people show up, I mean, I was driving out to the first in location and I thought, man, driving out to the first in location, I thought, man, what if I just wasted tens of thousands

of dollars then that works money? And with that, my producer called said, hey, where the hell are you? We've got two guys scheduled to show up in 45 minutes. And in that first investigation, in Beth Page Long Island, we had 17 guys, service over two and a half days, including a New York City, firefighter.

So, you know, was that a one time only event? I didn't know at the time, but your hearts and your throat, because you really don't know what you're dealing with. We had security, but we weren't working with law enforcement in that particular investigation. Law enforcement came in later and made a prosecution, or two in that case, but, you know,

we were testing this out and, you know, kind of learning as we went along, but no, there was no preparation for it other than that. You know, I had done obviously a number of spontaneous interviews in the past. I had the transcripts. I prepared as best as I could, but, you know, it's live. You are going inside the commission of versatility and showing people that crime as it is actually committed. And it was eye-opening, even for me, who had been, you know, at that point around the world doing investigate reporting. Yeah. The reason I ask is that, you know, people listen to this show, they're stepping into different spaces in their life.

And I think everyone's like, you have to be completely prepared. There's really no such thing. And you step into this space that really no one had stepped into before. You sort of created a space, the way that you did it. And it was, it was riveting. I mean, I, there's, there's not a person who listens to my show. Or is watching this, who's not familiar with you. It's became that big of a deal. And I, it's, I used to watch it and think, I don't know if I ever heard you like, well, that guy could be walking by me in the grocery store. You would never know. And that's why I wanted to have you on today,

but what today's show is really going to be about is obviously some insights into that show and the, but also lots of other things about predatory behavior. I want to talk about protecting our children, protecting yourselves, if you're single, and you're dating the social media piece of it, but then even offside all of that, how do you know if someone's got ill-willed towards you?

Is there a profile? Someone's predatory with you financially, just antagonistic towards you. So we're going to go all down that road if you're wondering why Chris is sitting in that seat today, because I think he's the most qualified person on the planet to do it. I'm curious, first Chris, when you meet these guys, you walk in there. Did anything strike you about their humanity? In other words, were they otherwise on the surface normal people? And you meet these guys, you walk in there. Did anything strike you about their humanity? In other words, were they otherwise

on the surface normal people? Or is you would sit there for 20, 30, 40 minutes eventually where there are things about them other than the obviously the underlying perverted predatory behavior that would give you a clue into who they were. It was different. You know, they come from different categories, Ed. So you may have a guy who walks in, who's a doctor or a teacher, or somebody even in law

enforcement. In a recent investigation, just a matter of months ago in Michigan, we had a prison guard, a Michigan State Corrections officer walk in to try to have sex with a 4-chalgral. You know, we're doing these investigations again now, 17 years later, and guys are still showing up. So they come from different categories. You see the legit guy, you could be standing next to it, the drive fingers on a Saturday morning,

or standing next to you, and on public transportation here in the New York subway. And then there are obviously guys who could have, the word predator tend to who crossed the forehead. They look janky. They look like a guy who's looking for trouble. So it's a combination of things, but I think if you're looking for that common denominator, it's really, really hard to tell on the surface.

If you go beneath the surface and you know, and you see things, there are definitely warning signs. But, you know, when you and I were kids, our parents said, don't talk to strangers, and that was good advice then, and good advice today. But the problem with online grooming and the internet has changed all of this in so many ways, is that the person who's a stranger on a Wednesday is so adept at gaining the confidence of a child or anyone really by the end of the week that you think you know this person over the weekend. Yeah, you used the word grooming.

And it's fascinating that you did. A few weeks ago, I had Sarah Klein on. Sarah was the one of the original, you know, she was one of the original young ladies who came forward that was a victim of Larry Nasser. Sure. For USA Gymnastics, and she used that word grooming. Now, he could groom them because he was in there

doing physicals with them, but how does that work? I've got a child, let's give some advice to parents now. You're gonna child, they're on Instagram, let's say. How does the grooming work and what should we be looking out for? Should parents be monitoring the direct messages of their children? Do you advise that? What would your would you advise if you have a child? I think it's not a bad idea, depending on what you see and how old the child is. You

need to start with an age appropriate discussion. And I think sometimes it's as simple as look, I'm going to trust you to have communication on the internet, to have an Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or Snapchat, but you need to know that there are adults out there who would like to trick you for a lot of different reasons. And kids don't like to be tricked. So I think it starts there, and if you can get that point across to a child, then you can start to prepare them. There is no real effective demand reduction for this crime, right? It's not a very sexy part of therapy or psychiatry or medicine.

Law enforcement does the best it can to bust and incarcerate punishments for these people, but at the end of the day, it's so prolific this crime that your best defense is education and awareness, and that starts with an age appropriate discussion with your kids. How prolific is it? I just want, I mean, I don't think that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, we used to say, you know, 15, 15 years ago when I started talking about

this, there was a number that we used to quote, and it was in any given time, 50,000 pedoters are online. Well, you know, it's a hard number to come up with, and we were challenged on that, and we ourselves went back to, what did this come from? And it came from a speech from an attorney general that got it from the attorney general in the United States, that got it from one of our stories where we interviewed somebody who was a former FBI agent and I asked the question would it surprise you if that were true? He said no, it could be even higher. So there's no way of really knowing it is the honest answer, right? Common sense would tell you that there are a lot of predators online because we've caught a lot of

predators online. Not just sexual predators looking to assault children, but financial predators and all kinds of confidence schemes and things that go on every day. So it's ubiquitous and we really don't know is the honest answer. Yeah, that's the thing and I, we're going to go there in a minute, but I'm just, there's things I always wanted to ask you and this is going to seem, I might even take some black for asking you this question. But the first thing is that because of the way movies are made, usually the bad guy in a movie is just a bad guy in every area, right? But the truth is, many of these people have otherwise other redemptive qualities. Absolutely. And I think that's part of it. Well, he's a great

of qualities. Absolutely. And I think that's part of it. Like, well, he's a great soccer coach. You're an amazing, she's an amazing business woman. Or he's so good with his own children. And so then we automatically categorize that person as there, there's no way they could be one of those because they have other adaptive qualities. These aren't just all bad people. This is some behavior they have that's perverted or a character flaw. They may have other adaptive qualities and that should cause us not to discount the possibility they could be doing harm, correct? Because that's absolutely right. And we see this in the predator investigations.

We see people who function as an oncologist, for example, at a major biotech firm on the cutting edge of churink cancer. Yet here's a guy who is, you know, going online by tall dreamy doc, lying about his age, trying to meet up with a 13-year-old girl in Petaluma, California for sex after a sexually charged conversation. Here's a guy who's got daughters, who's Mary, who has a big job, an incredible education, doing some good for society, but yet in this dark corner of his life, was out trolling for kids.

And I think people asked, what's the profile? Well, there's, in terms of my experience, and I'm not a therapist, and I'm not qualified to make this judgment, but in my experience, these predators break down into three different categories. There's the heavy hitter, pedophile predator, chalmalester who'd be doing this with or without the internet, right, the bad little encodes, the bad scout master, the guy who's hanging out of the playground or the food court at the mall.

They're gonna do this, they're hardwired, whether it's because of something in their mind or because of a childhood experience, they're hardwired, whether it's because of something in their mind or because of a childhood experience, they're ready to go after children. Then there's a younger group, right, 19, 20, 20, 22, socially inept, insecure, thinking that, well, this might be an opportunity to finally have romantic experience. And maybe the best way to do this is to choose somebody who's emotionally at the same level I am, who happens to be 13 or 14. And if it works out in a couple years,

it's not that big of an age difference. You know, they'll be 16 soon. They'd look at it as a Romeo and Juliet situation. That's a guy who can be put on probation, punished, warned, and probably never offend. Then we have this much more difficult situation in the middle. I think there's a whole category of guys who may have an attraction to younger boys and girls in their teens. In their teens. Yeah, these guys are, you know, NEA, Jenny Adolte, but they have an attraction to younger boys and younger kids, boys and girls. adult age, but they have an attraction to the other board and the other kids, boys and girls. And they wouldn't act upon this without the internet, without the access to the chat rooms, to pictures.

It's addictive. It's 24-7. And it's anonymous. And they find themselves seeing things online to somebody who they think is a vulnerable 13-14-50-L borrower girl, that they wouldn't say in person. things online to somebody who they think is a vulnerable 131450 boregial that they wouldn't say in person. And then at some point, they blur this line between fantasy and reality. And they may know better. They may suspect it's a Christian sting operation or an

FBI sting operation or any local police sheriff's department. But they do it anyway because they get so caught up in this, fulfilling this fantasy that they blew the line. And the next thing you know, they come knocking at our door. And that's the most difficult part, the most difficult profile to identify, to treat, to punish and to fix in our society. I think. Well, now that is fascinating because that sort of helps me are really processing the way you describe that because

that behavior manifests itself online now. It has created a space online where this transcends sexual predators. Right. For example, in my case, people will regularly make fake accounts of ed my let, make them look really good, and then solicit people to buy some cryptocurrency or a $70, $50. These are otherwise people that I almost think, because I've actually encountered a few

of these people in my last six years online, that I think they do blur this line where they forget what they're doing is illegal and hurting another human being. They almost get caught up in the process of it. And this is so prevalent online. Is there anything you agree with that number one? And secondly, is there anything someone listening to this can do to protect themselves from any type of predatory behavior online? Well, number one, yes, you are right.

I think that's an accurate profile of what happens online. And it is this constant blur of fantasy and reality. And because it is such a vast space of potential money making that it creates opportunity for those who are trying to scam folks. And we've seen it, especially in a difficult economy. I mean, the predator always goes for the most vulnerable, right? And not always do they start out to take advantage. But once they get a sense of success or how easy it is,

and it becomes financially lucrative or emotionally lucrative. They keep going until they get caught. And I suppose it's just that the ubiquitous nature of the internet in some respects, but also if you provide an opportunity for bad people to execute this sort of thing, they will do it. We've seen it in our various investigations of online predators, not the traditional kind in the in the Hansen versus Predator to catch a predator, but the Onision and Real Life series

that we have now on a Discovery Plus. Here's a guy who's a a YouTube sensation. He had a big following who's making millions of dollars and ultimately crossed the line and started abusing and praying upon his young female followers. And it started a whole investigation, both simple and criminal. And, you know, we did a series of explorers in there. And the women, the young women who were the targets here, were vulnerable for a lot of different reasons, some because of their emotions, some because of their talent, their creativity,

they felt that they could be with this fellow, who was also somewhat creative and talented, but also because they came from a home that there was freedom enough for them to be approached and to be emotionally taken advantage of by a guy like this. And you see it among the most wealthy people, the Peter and I got it. Investigating the right thing, you know. There you have a guy who was not only a predator, but was a money predator. And he could buy this sense of impunity that he had for 45, 50 years.

He got away with thousands of sexual assaults. And finally, because of dedicated investigators, a civil lawsuit, that went on between Nagar and a neighbor who did the right thing. I'm good reporting by Austin, New York Times, and Canadian Broadcasting Network. He finally got exposed. You know, but who knows without this? I mean, Edstein, without the Miami-Herald staying on top of this story, day after day after day, Edstein probably gets away with it. And the US Attorney in New York at the time essentially sent that. I mean, it's these guys, they have money, they have connections, they have power, and they can get away with it. And so this trick was down as an attitude on the internet.

Aren't they protected some of them by the bigger apparatus as well? I think I was reading that you wanted to do something on Epstein or had an inclination about him or something. Something came up and then it didn't happen, is that right? Well, it was, you know, that's the lesson of good dog-ed reporting. And that's what Julie K. Brown did at the Miami Herald. We had an opportunity I had an opportunity to book into some of this stuff and quite honestly I tried to fashion the sting operation in New York. The levels of security were so guarded that we weren't able to

you know penetrate it and so I got busy with other stories other topics of the days and it was the Miami Herald. You can dig in a day after, day after, day after, day. And finally, got the confidence in these survivors, some of them, to identify themselves and come forward and become very effective witnesses to process these case. You know, so do I regret not pursuing them more aggressively? Yeah, of course, but I'm also glad that Julie came around and my name is Harold did, and we've done stories around it. I continue to work on that case a bit here and there,

and I think we'll come up with some things soon. But it's just a lesson of reporting. You have to sometimes it's old fashioned legwork and just staying on it and not going for the Grand Slam in camera investigation that wins the day. And that's what I wanted for the Miami Hound. Reporting aside as a human being. What has this work done to you?

How does it mean you look at human beings differently overall if it has? I mean, you've seen a side of humanity up close in your face multiple times, really a seat that aside from maybe a few people in law enforcement have ever seen. Is it change the way you look at someone in the grocery store? Is it change the way you look at the goodness of humans in general? I'm curious is what it's done to you as a man? Well, it's a great question. And I think there was a time in between that it gave me kind of a dark look at society

in general. And you can let yourself get caught up in that if you're not careful. And I think with time passing and perspective, I've developed a much broader, more balanced view of the world. I think that comes with doing something for 40 years and reaching a certain age in life. And I think kids who are now adults, two of whom are in this business, you get a perspective that you didn't have at 40,

that you now have at 62. And so it allows you not to be too hung up, but to have a world view of things and to understand how my work is fit into that world view and improve the situation and contribute to the education of people. And to get into the minds of a predator or a criminal, and to understand a little bit how that works.

And to hear the voice of the victim, you can create a, hopefully, an environment where fewer people become victims. And that's kind of what all my work and my reporting is about. You know, it is creating that awareness, because at the end of the day, the cops can't arrest them all.

You know, we can't catch them all. So if you create this body of work that makes people pay attention just a little closer, you can prevent people from becoming victims. It's like in these interviews with these guys, whether you caught anybody can jump out of the back room or from behind the bushes and create 10 seconds of dramatic video. My job is to get inside their heads, to get them to talk to me. I'm not out there beat them up.

Of course, as a human being, you get, you know, adjuctated or angry that somebody would do this to a child, but my job is to understand it and to get them to spill their guts on camera so people can see it. You know, and that's been one of the interesting things about going back and doing the podcast now, which is, I immerse myself in each one of these cases and

At the time, you know, I've got the transcripts and you know, I've got some background And I'm able to think I might see it and deal with these interviews and Unquestionably even in this dark Subject matter there are you know borderline humorous things that happen and so you have to live in those moments too because you know People see it for what it is. But you've got to get the truth out of these guys. And that's the job of it all. And I think, especially looking back as I was saying with the podcast, you now see the bigger picture. It may have been a time when two guys

were coming in with intent minutes of each other. Now I can sit back and watch the videos again, look at all the transcripts, see what's happened to the guys since then, no more about his background than I did when he first walked in. And we usually had a pretty good background sheet on the guys. And it gives this for a picture.

And I think in these times, when kids are spending more of their days on the internet, especially during the pandemic, and when you think of how many more social media platforms are out there now, it's more important than ever to have this kind of discussion, this kind of education. Remember, when we did the first to catch a predator 17 years ago, we merely had decoys in chattons and AOL and Yahoo. That was it.

That's all we use. And take a look at the landscape around you today. Look at what you and I use as men of a certain age in the media to promote our work, to have discussions with followers and viewers and fans. It's exploded. I mean, every day there's a new social media platform that I don't know about.

Where potentially predators can approach children online. I was just thinking about TikTok specifically. Younger profile, we got some data this week that says Instagram's got about a billion three users. I mean, imagine that number, a billion three. But the TikTok is now at a billion and will likely surpass them in the next six months. So if there are billions of people on these two platforms and again, they're overlapping

users, clear. But that means there are millions of some form of predators online, whether that's a financial predator, a sexual predator, somebody that it's not 50,000 anymore, somebody that even if you're a woman on your own dating app, just a guy who's got no intention but to be physical with you, why do you about his intentions? To me, that's a bit of a predator. And so-

It's absolutely a predator, and let me take it one step further. We did a story a week or so ago on the YouTube channel, have a seat with Chris Hanson, on parents who are exploiting their children online. And, you know, you look at these family vloggers, you know, these people who are doing stories about, you know, their families and adopting kids, and then rehoming the kids because they've got behavioral issues.

We did a story on a case of Daniel Cohen, who's 15 years old, the mother of her is Jen, our shampoo is essentially pimping this girl out online, making millions and millions of dollars. And young girls have been doing this since, you know, 11, 12, 13, all her relationships, her pregnancy, abortion, you know, borderline child born, and all of this makes money for the mother on their YouTube channel. Yes, when we do a story on it, even though we blur any questionable video, we're not monetized

because of sensitive social content. It's fine. I don't do YouTube to make money. I know exactly what you're doing. I incubate stories for television, but so yet, they're out there doing the exploitation and making them on. That's crazy.

So you make sense of that. I know that is nonsensical and I relate very deeply to what you're saying there. I'm curious, a lot of people are dating. The main place people meet now is online. So it used to be at a bar, a nightclub, or church, or a- Or a fashion way. Right. It's just, it's like, and I've had great dating experts on my show.

And so, man or woman, so I'm meeting a guy who's in my DMs, right? He's in my DMs on Instagram, or I'm meeting a guy who's, I'm on one of these, I don't know the names of them anymore I'm on Tinder whatever it is. I don't know Right. It does you a whole damn I'm in a lot of them married, but But you're on these apps and so you're gonna meet you want to meet people that way What I there's got to be some advice you give to somebody is it like hey meet in a public place look for Yeah, all of it all of that Yeah, you give to somebody, is it like, hey, meet in a public place. Look for evidence. So you can't. Yeah, all of that.

And you're really bad. Yeah, you have to just be wary. I mean, obviously, if you're an adult and you're on one of the dating apps, a lot of people meet and have healthy relationships because of that. Tender and Grinder are set up for different, different sort of hookups. But the traditional dating ads result in healthy, wonderful long-term relationships.

But you just have to know that there are people who will try to exploit that and explore your good nature. And so, yeah, all the common sense things apply, which is take your time, meet for coffee in a public space, don't put yourself in a situation where somebody can drop a new fee in your drink, make sure you've got your own way there, an own way home, and it's not a bad idea

to make sure you tell a friend what you're up to. It's no different than selling a television on Craigslist or on Facebook, meet in a public place, you know, and preferably in the next to a police station. I mean, don't set yourself up to become a victim. And it's a little, you know, trick here with adults who meet each other online. And I listen, I know people who met their spouses on traditional dating apps. It's, it's not unusual. So, I think it's funny that I named the hook up app.

That's how to know what the date is. It's a Sam out you. I mean, I don't know. There are, there are profiles on there from time to time, so I'm going to screen shot and say, is this you? Yes, that's definitely my picture, but my name is not Joe Mendoza. Yeah. And I don't let it serisota floor to us. So even there's that sort of thing to do.

What it's all the fraud online blows my mind, it just blows my mind. Well, and we saw it years ago, we did a piece on some of the financial scams online. And there's an intersection between the financial scams and the sweetheart Swindle. You've got these people who think they'd met somebody online who's cute and has a lovely picture in front of some flowers.

And it's actually somebody in West Africa who's wearing a scam. And suddenly they're accepting packages. And they're reshipping these things. This you know, this is a single woman in Georgia who's got five kids, who's alone, and is vulnerable, you know, and likes the companionship online, and we'll do this, thinking that she's getting involved in a business venture with somebody who might also be a romantic.

But, what you're describing there, everybody, with Chris is describing, I know because I'm in the financial space. And so that is much more prevalent than you would think, would he just describe a people that are a little bit more advanced in age, having what they think is a romantic encounter with someone who does not exist that is in some other country who then that person slowly grooms them to use Chris's term earlier to the point where they just begin to believe them financially. And people have watched their entire life savings this way,

slowly but surely. And you think there's just no way it's nonsensical, this grooming, this connection, this blurring that he described the predator uses also happens to the prey. The blurring starts to happen to the person being preyed upon. That's actually right. And then they don't want to believe that it's really a scam because to accept that means that they're not going to see this $250,000 that they invested with this person back. So the Stockholm's syndrome clicks in because they don't want to believe they've been the victim of a confident scheme. And so then they become very difficult victims for law enforcement.

They don't want to come forward. There's a sense of embarrassment. And they're tricky cases to prosecute. We once at NBC, we convinced our bosses to give us a year and more producers than usually are given to a project to out the Nigerian scammers. And it was it was a hell of an effort.

I mean, I had three or four producers. And usually when you do a story, you have a producer and associate producer. I had three or four producers rotating in and out, constantly trying to get these guys to come out of the, you know, back rooms and out of wherever to put together a stand, racial eye could confront them. And we did it, but it was, it was untongue. We were at this for good nine months to a year before we could really smoke these guys out. And we had a field day with them. I mean, it was a great, great story, but, you know, it was expensive, it was aggressive, it was, you know, so it dangerous, I suppose. But we traveled,

you know, throughout Europe and went to I suppose, but we traveled throughout Europe and went to West Africa and you don't get a chance to do that very often. Because it was a great story. It became iconic, but it's one story that caused hundreds of thousands of dollars in many months and a lot of manpower to do it, but that's how difficult it is. Now imagine a mid-sized police department. That's not going to happen. And that's why these guys get away with it. I mean, I'm convinced that there's a poster of me in virtually every internet cafe in Lagos and Nigeria and Benine was to Africa, with, you know, saying don't talk to anybody who looks

and sounds like this, But it's true. Because we didn't. How do you think your work, Chris, just along those lines? How do you think your work has changed the way, if at all, the way the predator operates? As your work caused this sort of culture of predatory behavior to alter the way they operate, literally because of you and the sort of dynamic that was set up

by the way you did the show. And so. I think I would like to think that it's a deterrence, right? I mean, I honestly thought we'd do three, maybe four predator investigations. And I honestly thought that we would not see guys show up, that we, you know, I'd be taking an amp on the kitchen counter like the Maytag repairman, nothing to do.

And that's not the case. I mean, again, 17 years later in Michigan, guys are showing up. Now, we've changed what we do. We had a COVID protocol. We did a lot of things differently, but there's still out there. And guys still walk in and say, oh, you're Chris Hanson. And guys still walk in and don't know who I am. And I don't know whether to be offended by that or are flattered.

But it's not a problem that's going on any time soon. And people always ask why that is. And I think it's just the nature of the issue. And I think for some people, it's an illness, for some people it's a weakness, for some people it's just a, it's a predator mindset. But it also is not a practice of medicine.

If you look at it as a psychiatric illness, for instance, and some of it is, if you go to medical school and you graduate, and you have the choice to be kind of a plastic illness, for instance, and some of it is. If you go to medical school and you graduate and you have the choice to become a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills, California, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, or Park Avenue, New York, and make millions of dollars, or what about this? I can study sexual predators and work for the US marshals and spend my days in federal penitentiaries interviewing hard core predators. What choice, now thank God, there are people who do that.

And I've interviewed them, and they're wonderful, smart, dedicated human beings who devoted their life to this particular practice of medicine. But you can understand why somebody wouldn't want to do that. Yeah, well, I also think part of it is the rush. I feel like sometimes people's lives are so monotonous and unexciting and they're not chasing a dream. I don't have time for human beings to be a really dangerous thing.

Oh, I agree. Sometimes it's, I just wonder sometimes it's just, I'm sure in I can't empirically prove this, but I'm positive that there are cases where, so let me just take a look at this channel. Let me just see what's there. There's a young guy or young gal. And what happens if I did have a channel? What happens if I did propose this idea?

And again, they're not talking face to face. So they get on the slippery slope where they start saying stuff they wouldn't say face to face. So they get on the slippery slope where they start saying stuff, they wouldn't say face to face. And the internet has changed our whole culture and the way humans communicate. I mean, you know, I tell the story to my kid, I say, when I was in college, nobody had cell phones, nobody even had pedrews when I was in college. We had to leave notes on doors in dormitories. And then people had to write things down on little pink pieces of paper, yellow pieces of paper, and you have to read them. And then you'd have to go to do these bars. If you weren't there, then it must be at the alley-eye or something.

You had to find somebody. And we always found the other people. We always found who we were looking for. But nobody just, you know, touched each other and said, you know, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, or here's where we're going to be, or, you know, kids use Tinder today just to figure out where the other kids are going to be, to either be there or avoid them. I mean, it's a whole different world now. I have a big theory that attention is something that drives humans. And in an odd way, I think the predator and the prey share this need. In other words, the prey, this child or this person,

is just seeking some form of attention. They're not getting somewhere else. Maybe they don't have a father in the home. Maybe there's, and I'm not trying to distill down a nerve. No, no, but I think, again, it all goes back to a vulnerability. Yep. And I think a lot of predators have a deep sense of where that vulnerability is and they can claim on it.

I mean, if you look at all the victims, there's a vulnerability. That doesn't mean that it's okay to make them a victim, it just means that a predator can often sense that and move in. I mean, it's the old story, why do you rob the banks? It's where the money's at, you know, criminals figure that out. Yeah. Did you ever find yourself, this is the hard question that one of always ask it. I'm maybe a little flag for it. I was

going to ask it earlier. It's just coming out now. So did you ever find yourself when you're in that kitchen or living room in this guy's jabber and on and on and he seems remorseful and he's tearied and I'm a father and I can't believe I did this and I'm an idiot. Did you ever find yourself feeling, this is a tough question. Did you ever feel any empathy for the predator? Yeah. A couple of times, specifically, I remember one, and I had conversations about this with

some other colleagues. There was a fellow who came into Georgia, a house staying operation. We had set up there and he was an Iraqi vet. And he came in and I walked out and I don't know that he had figured out who was me or what was going on. He probably thought I was a cop. But he immediately got down on his knees and put his hands behind his back

in the prisoner of war position, as if he had been caught by Iraqi forces. And he was compliant to the answer all the questions, who's apologetic, he had, you know, reasoning for all this, he had PTSD, none of that, however, forgives the fact that he was very likely going to centrally assault a child and alter that child's body forever.

Now did I feel bad to the guy because he served our country because he was having issues perhaps due to that? Yes. Does that make him okay? Does that excuse what he was about to do? No, but it was a moment of emotional torture for me to figure out, okay, head this guy, decided that's going online today or had he decided to go get his tires rotated and as opposed to short here, he wouldn't be facing this.

And maybe he would have never acted on the symbols. I don't know, but you can't, you can ask yourself those request things and you can have these emotional and intellectual wrestling matches with yourself. And that's healthy because it makes you think, it makes you better at what you do for living, but you can't torture yourself forever over it. You know ultimately you have to realize

that this was what I chose to do. We did it with integrity and intelligence and some balance to it and this was the product. Generally speaking I that's what it's generally speaking. I mean, look, we'll always take key in certain corners in the journalistic community for being sensational or working too close with the police or whatever, but, you know, look, I, you know, I long ago got over that criticism. My long ago realized that by following the path of doing this kind of reporting, I was going to limit

in some more traditional opportunities, right? And I have this conversation. My second son is a reporter on television. And I said, look, did this make perhaps 60 minutes off the platter, maybe? But this is what I chose to do. I'm comfortable with the legacy that I'm creating. And I think as a whole, I was more cutting edge than worried about

being more traditional. And it's no use analyzing it to death because I already did it. You know, I mean, I joke with people all the time. You know, my two oldest kids went to a, you know, a private school in Connecticut. And having a father on television wasn't a big deal because they went to school with kids whose dads were captains of industry and sports and all kinds of things. And it wasn't until South Park to the Christians and to catch a predator parody that something I was the coolest

dad about you're a big deal. Yeah, I was on South Park, you know, so, or that it is what it is. I told, you know, my sons, it was all the time. I said, look, you know, I'm not saying that you have to go do what I did or do it the way I did it, but, you know, realize that you're, but realize that as you charge your path, there are consequences to it, and you have to be comfortable with those decisions, even though sometimes they're made for you. Yeah, but you know, we've all made mistakes. Our like you've made little mistakes in your personal life. Everybody has those mistakes happen, but the truth is, it's very rare in your industry and

your work, that the actual work, I mean, it's sincerely probably saved lives. I'd like to think so, you know. I do. I mean, what if it saved one, and we know it's more than that, right? And it's then it's worth it. And, you know, and to me, again, it's a dialogue and awareness that didn't exist before. That's right. And if part of that is due to a cartoon show, well, so be it.

So, you know, at least it's an intelligent, biting, cutting edge, well, right? You, by the way, had the temperament to do this. There are other guys that are investigative reporters or journalists on television that their temperament could have changed the tone and the environment when that walk out happened. There's something to your presence, and by the way, this is just something for everybody to learn in communication too. There was something to the way that your presence, your energy was brought into the room that created an environment that was dynamic between you and this predator.

Everyone should be conscious of their energy and how they walk into a space You don't walk into every room the same way you walked into that room that way. I'm curious Take us into it for a minute What are you feeling when you're coming around that corner? And what are you feeling typically from the person who you walk eyes with? What is that? That has got it. That is a moment that 99.999 999% of all human beings will never experience

in their life, which you've experienced multiple times. Is it the same every time for you and the other person? No, it's different every time because, you know, each individual, there are obviously there are some similarities. Some guys are going to have the same excuse and you're prepared for it and you've thought about it since the last guy gave you that excuse so you have a really good comeback for that right too bad for that guy because I'm really ready for them and I'll have his lunch but generally it's the rule that I have for every interview which is to be a good listener and to not be afraid of dead air. You know, Mike Wallace was a great teacher of that in spontaneous controversial interview.

And that is, you know, sometimes you gotta go for it and get it while you have the opportunity, but at the same time, if you've got that person in a controlled environment, there's nothing wrong with asking a simple question like, explain, and letting them hang there on the book until they say something. And I can't tell you how many times I've been in a situation, especially in the predator cases, where I thought it was over. I thought the guy was never going to give it up.

And I kept at it, kept at it, kept at it. And finally said, you know, just explain to me what was going on in your mind. And finally, you see the switch go and the guys as well, you know, it started here. I was in this age and I kept getting older and the kids kept the same age or getting younger. And they give you some sense of what happened. Now it might be all pointed at the end of the day and a big excuse, but at least you have some sense of what this guy is about and how they got there. Do you think that a couple more things, I'm fascinated, but I mean, it's like,

for me, there's a conversation many years in the making of wanting to ask these questions, I know it is for my audience too. Do you think that forecasts a little bit, you've been in this space a while? Is there a future that you see coming where predatory type people change their behavior? Is there another venue or forum other than just online? Is anything you see that we should be looking out for that's sort of the next level?

Right? As you've said, we didn't have text and phone back in the day. Now we've got Instagram and TikTok and dating apps. Is there anything on the line? I think whatever the next thing is, people will try to exploit it. Whether it's another level of communication, another level of internet connectivity, we see it with the interactive video games. That's another thing. People think what it could say playing a video game, well, they don't know who's on the other end of that. Maybe you say they're Sam Johnstone from wherever, but you don't know who that really is.

So I think it's really, it's the same predatory behavior taken to the next level and exploited whatever technology is available. I mean, the old days, you know, you can sell the same tractor six times with a bus station, you know, to the same guy looking to buy a tractor. You can get aware of that about, you know, seven times before the sheriff would figure out what you're up to. And today, you know, it's just, you all you need is a picture of the tractor. And, you know, it's just, y'all you need is a picture of the tractor. And, you know, people sell some multiple times, you know, all the time online. So you gotta be careful.

I was gonna just add to what you're saying that, you know, I'm a target for certain people just because of, you know, net worth or whatever or reach. And I just wanna share with the audience that when someone, someone doesn't usually come right directly at me with their thing they'd like to get from me. It trickles over time,

and it can seem like a very normal relationship in the beginning, even for an extended period of time. But what I didn't know was in the back of their mind, they were waiting for that moment where I was the most comfortable, I was the most vulnerable, I was the most trusting. We are being groomed by people for different things other than just what Chris is experiencing, or experienced.

So that's true, isn't it, Chris? There's a grooming that someone's, someone who's trying to get something from you. There's, I mean, I've seen it in my life. I mean, you know, I've said to people, I said, do you really think that I'm the guy you want to try and con? How do you think that's going to possibly go?

And mostly, if people make up a story, but it's happened a couple of times where, you know, some of these, I've possibly tried to take advantage of an online scam or, you know, the typical phone calls you get, where you know it's somebody trying to get money from you for some affairs reason. And you know, you can tell because they'll say, Christ off or, you know, we have to name the doesn't fit on their readout sheet. And put an E R on that.

But take it off that. Does that name sound at all familiar to you? Oh my god, sorry about you. They picked the worst dude. Yeah, could you could you could you could you pick a worse human being on this day? I'm my last question. I'm curious. Redemption, but I just I think I've always in my mind thought when it came to Sexual predators physical predators physical abusers. I'm just sort of always that's been a category that I went No, they're not redeemed there. They don't come back that they don't get a second-chit I'm just being candid about everything liars cheap. Yeah, yeah Flanders bad people

Gossipers they can all be redeemed and right that cat those two categories for me have always been no they're not reductive no way know how ever would I trust them again. Well, I think I think there's a category of predators who can never be before. I think they're they're definitely is you know a group and no matter what you do or how you punish or anything else they're going to figure out a way to pray. They're hardwired to do it. And that's probably at least in my experience of 30 of these guys, you know, are going to change. And they're going to be, and we've seen them. We've seen them get out. Well, you've seen them reoffend. We've seen guys who successfully go on to have productive lives.

And I think there are categories that with monitoring and probation and some sort of treatment, I think they'll be fine. But we've also had guys in prominent positions who, you know, the therapist and had their pro-observisit and they're not supposed to have a device that has access to the internet and the phone rings while they're in the therapist and the probation officer, and they're caught right handed with the phone. I mean, you know, it's like, come on, Jesus, can you at least try? You know, but they can't be reformed in some cases. Thank you for today. Thank you. No, I want to treat. And thanks for having me on,

and I appreciate the thoughtful conversation and good luck to you and all your endeavors, and let's do it again. I think you're wonderful. Guys, I think Predators, I've caught a something I cannot wait to hear. I'm a huge fan. I'm a huge fan of being addicted to your program and addicted to you in terms of the work

that you've done and it's really true. If I've missed one, I've missed one because I think I've seen all the other ones. We have more comments, and I think we'll have a little announcement on that next month or so. So I'll keep you posted. Yeah, follow Chris on Instagram, you guys.

Today was a little bit of a different take because I want you, your family protected. I want you thinking about people that are grooming you for all kinds of different things. And I think grooming is that word, that word of a, someone sort of working on you towards some ill-gotten means, some ill-gotten intent in your life. And we have literally the world's expert on the show today too,

plus you're just fascinating. I know everybody wanted to hear from you today. So thank you Chris Hanson. Thank you, Anne. I truly appreciate it. It was great to be here. I enjoyed it. All right, guys, a share today's show.

Make sure you subscribe to YouTube. If you're listening to the audio, if you're listening to the audio, if you're listening to the audio, go over there and get on YouTube because there's different content there as well. God bless y'all, max out. This is the end mileage show. you