THE ED MYLETT SHOW - The Meaning of Your Life Feat. Arthur Brooks

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

Start paying bills the smart way, not the hard way at QuickBooks.com/billpay. Terms apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc., licensed as a Money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/mylett What if the reason you feel unfulfilled isn’t because you’re failing… but because you’ve been chasing the wrong definition of success? In this conversation with Arthur Brooks, we go deep on something that hits every single one of us at some point in our lives. I told Arthur right at the beginning that when he was last on the show, even my closest friends called me about it and that never happens. That tells you the level this conversation is about to hit. This time, we go even further. We talk about the quiet feeling so many people have right now that something is off, even when life looks good on the outside. Arthur calls it a meaning crisis, and once you hear it explained, you are going to recognize it immediately in your own life. One of the most powerful parts of this episode is when Arthur breaks down the three components of meaning. He explains that if you do not have coherence, purpose, and significance, you will feel lost no matter how successful you become. I opened up about how even with achievement, wealth, and a great family, there are still moments where you ask yourself if any of it really matters. That is the gap so many high performers are living in right now. We also get real about why external success can actually make you more unhappy if you have not done the internal work. That part is going to hit a lot of you hard because you know it is true. We also go into something that honestly changed the way I think about pain. Arthur shares that suffering is not something to avoid, it is something to learn from. He explains that the problem is not the pain itself, it is our resistance to it. When you stop resisting and start learning, suffering becomes one of the greatest teachers in your life. We talk about faith, we talk about growth, and we talk about how the hardest seasons of your life may actually be the ones that give your life the most meaning. Then we shift into the world we are all living in right now and this part is eye opening. Arthur breaks down how we are living in what is essentially a modern version of a simulation, constantly on our devices, stuck in the wrong part of our brain, disconnected from real relationships and real meaning. We talk about why busyness is often just a distraction from doing the deeper work and how boredom, silence, and reflection are actually required if you want to find clarity in your life. This is not theory. This is practical, actionable truth that you can start applying immediately. This episode is about doing the work. It is about getting honest with yourself, stepping out of the noise, and reconnecting with what actually matters. If you have been feeling stuck, restless, or like something is missing, this conversation is going to give you language for it and more importantly, a path forward. Arthur said it best. The meaning of life is not something you find by accident. It is something you build through how you live, who you serve, and how you love. Key Takeaways: The three essential components of meaning and why most people are missing at least one Why external success without internal work leads to emptiness How suffering can become your greatest teacher if you stop resisting it The hidden danger of living in a digital, simulated world and how it disconnects you from meaning Why service and deep relationships are the fastest path to fulfillment How busyness is often masking a lack of self reflection and what to do about it Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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CBC News. This is the Edmunds show. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. So I have to tell you, you know, I have a small circle of friends that are my closest friends. And when this man was on the show the last time, they never call me and say, hey, great show. Like, I'm begging for compliments from these guys all the time. And so I've done 800 episodes. I think they've called me three times.

And when this man was on, I got calls from every single one of them. And so they're all going to be very excited that he's back. And I'm excited that is back. My guest today is Arthur Brooks, you guys. I don't know how to describe him. I think he's like the most interesting man in the world candidate. I guess he's a, I call him, I don't know, a happiness meaning, human flourishing guru of sorts. But his work kind of crosses over with neuroscience.

He's a very bright man, very spiritual man. He's a professor at Harvard. And I enjoy his work so much. I look forward to the conversations I've had with him. And he's got a book out now called The Meaning of a Good your life, finding purpose in an age of emptiness. I cannot wait to jump into this for my own emotional well-being. So Arthur, welcome back to the show. Thanks, Ed. It's great to see you again. Likewise. Likewise. This is so good. So I learned a new word in your book, and I'm not sure that I

pronounce it right. But I want to start with kind of a concept and a time that you describe in the book. It's a German word. I'll butcher it and you clean it up, okay, because you're the Harvard professor, and I'm a guy with the microphone and a camera in his office. So unheimlish. Am I close? That's good. Yeah, that's good. Unheimlich.

Unheimlish. And again, I'm no German expert. That's not my second language. But that's a word. It almost doesn't have a translation. And my daughter taught it to me, actually. It means to not feel to feel eerily out of place, to not feel comfortable in your home. Like something.

something's not right and you can't quite put your finger on it. And we know that. You know, something's creepy. You go into a room and everybody's acting real weird or whatever it happens to be. And you know, something's not right. And the reason I brought that word out in the beginning of this new book, The Meaning of Your Life, is because that's how I felt just a very few years ago. I'm an old college professor.

I mean, that's, I've been, I got my PhD 30 years ago and I taught for a long time. And then I left to run a company just to see if I could actually do it. And I ran the company for 11 years. And then I retired and came back to academia. And I kind of thought I was going to find universities the way that I'd left them. I left the university in 2008 and it was happy. I mean, it was a happier part of life. Everybody was ambitious and getting along and falling in love and making friends.

And I mean, like you remember college, right, Ed? Yeah, yeah. College was a blast. Yeah, exactly. And it came back in 2019 and, man, it was unheimlich. It was like something wasn't right. It was creepy. I mean, people were sad and angry.

Depression had tripled. Anxiety had doubled. And a lot of universities, including my own, more than 50% of students were getting counseling. We're actually seeing a mental health professional. The whole, there was loneliness, there was bitterness, all this really crazy, angry activism where everybody was a victim. It was like the victim Olympics on these campuses. was cancel culture, safe spaces, microaggressions. It was misery.

It was like a plague had gone through my village while I was gone. And I thought to myself, well, I guess this is my research now. I guess figuring this one out is why I'm here when I came back to academia in 2019. It reasoned it stuck out for me. So I read the whole book because I just, you know, I got a digital copy. I read the whole thing. That description, though, I almost feel like that's how so many people feel about their entire life, meaning it's familiar, but it doesn't feel like home anymore. And it's really the nature of your work.

And I'm not even so sure that I wouldn't describe myself this way more often than I'd like to admit it that, I don't know, the meaning of life escapes me often. You know, I do more that matters like what we're doing right now. I've got wonderful family. I've been blessed to build wealth far beyond my talents, that's for sure. But I think sometimes I'm searching for fulfillment, even though I've had a lot of achievement. Yeah. Really what this book's about, you know. It really is.

Yeah. It really is. It's the crisis of emptiness that people feel. It's the meaning crisis, which, by the way, is not just part of the human condition. And people have always struggled with, you know, what is the meaning of my life, but it's become a real phenomenon. in our society, in our world, but particularly in the United States, since about 2008. And it affects everybody, you and me and everybody else, but especially people under 30, especially, and especially, most especially, educated people under 30.

As a matter of fact, there's this weird psychogenic epidemic, which is just a fancy way of saying an epidemic of misery that doesn't have a biological origin. There's no virus that we can find, but it's really spreading around. and you see it explode after 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. And so my research is all about why is it that suddenly all of us are struggling to find meaning and young people in particular can't find the meaning of their lives. What is meaning? Where do they need to go to find it and how do they need to live differently?

That's what this book answers. Let's talk about a couple of those answers. That's what's great about his work. He'll describe things in his book, you go, that's me. And then the next part of it is here's maybe a possible solution or a strategy. So the first chapter is the meaning of meaning. Yeah. And then you sort of break down, I think you call it the three components of meaning or happiness.

Why don't you share those with us? Because I think that alone is illuminating for a lot of people. It was for me. When you don't know what you're looking for, you can't actually find it, generally speaking. So you have to be able to name it. And that's true in anything, by the way. If you say you've got to go to Tacoma, but you don't know what a Tacoma is, it's not going to be very helpful. So what I start off with is talking about how we is.

behavioral scientists understand what meaning really is in people's lives. And what it is is a combination of three things. There are three things that if you don't have them, you won't have a sense of the meaning of your life. Number one is you have to have a sense of why things happen the way they do. That's called coherence. And that's the reason that people, they have a lot of their beliefs. Religion provides a sense of coherence, why things happen the way they do. Science provides a sense of coherence. Personally, I'm both religious and I'm a scientist. Some people, they really, they really go after conspiracy theories. And when you see somebody who falls for every conspiracy theory, it's because they don't have a sense of meaning. And that's because they don't have a sense

of coherence in their lives. When people are falling, are looking for, oh, there's powerful people that are pulling the strings behind everything. That's their search for coherence because they lack a sense of meaning. It's a dead giveaway. They've got a meaning crisis is when you see people that are that are falling for these things. The second is purpose. Purpose and meaning are not the same thing. Purpose is why you're doing what you're doing, what direction that you're going. What are your goals in life so that you know you can make progress? That's the answer to the or that's the question, you know, where am I going? That's purpose. And you have to be going in a particular direction. If you're not, you're going to be going in circles and your life is going to feel meaningless,

which is huge problem for a lot of young people today. And the last, is what's called significance. And significance is the answer to why my life matters. Because if your life doesn't matter to anyone, including yourself, you don't have any sense of meaning at all. If nobody loves you, if you don't have a sense of somebody caring about you, you're insignificant, you won't have any meaning to your life. And so those are the three things to go in search of. Why do things happen the way they do? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why does my life matter? Those are the three big searches to find the meaning of life. Yeah, you know, the latter, I remember when my first bout, I always share stuff with my audience that maybe is a little bit more personal than some hosts might be willing to

share, but I remember my grandfather died when I was a little boy. I thought I was a relatively happy kid. My dad was an alcoholic and a drug addict, and I don't recall whether my dad had gotten sobery yet or not, but I remember my grandfather died. I found myself a few weeks later, stumbling into this loop. You kind of call it a doom loop. Right. It was more like, he's gone like what why's life matter right and i think in my case like the most unhappy i've been is the third element like does any of this matter right obviously because of my faith i've been reborn in that and that does have a matter to me but i got to share i want you talk about this in the book and i want you to maybe elaborate even if it's something that's not in the book because i'm curious

this for me for myself i know a lot of people that live in the middle they uh they're not really happy they're a little bit melancholy, but they have moments of happiness. The people that I actually know, they're the most unhappy, and by the way, this is not all of them. I have to rank my unhappiest friends are actually externally more successful than the other group. Right. Meaning success is almost external success, whether they got the money or the house or the car, maybe even the relationship in some cases. They're actually unhappier.

It's almost like their success contributed to their doom, almost like, is this all there is type thing? That's right. That's right. And there's a reason for that. There's an absolute reason for that. When you're going for to find what you're looking for in life, what we call extrinsic motivation, that is to say stuff happening to you, I'm only going to be happy when I have enough success. That's looking for extrinsic outside rewards as opposed to doing the work inside, intrinsically looking for. for the rewards, you're not going to find it and you're not going to find meaning.

You're going to be aimless. It's going to be a big problem. I tell my students on the first day of class, you think, because the world's told you, my students are, by the way, 28 years old, MBA students at the Harvard Business School. These are the, they want to grow up and be Ed Milette. That's what they want to be when they grow up. They want to be successful like you. And they believe when they have the money, the power, the admiration, the prestige,

the position, the relationships, then happiness will come for free. And I say, no, no, no, no, you got to do the work. You got to point to the happiness by asking the questions and doing the work in your relationships and all the stuff I talk about in this book. And then, then you'll be successful enough. And the problem is for all the strivers that haven't done the work, there's no enough. There isn't ever enough. And that's the reason that there's so much misery among some of the most accomplished

people in the world. Gosh, it's so, by the way, everybody, I can just tell you as someone who's maybe had a little bit of that success thing, it's really. Really true if you don't do this other work. The antithesis is written about in the book as well. This I've never, well, I've heard it in my spiritual life and my Christian walk, but nowhere else in a book like this. And you actually say that suffering, everyone lean in on this, okay?

This might be cool for you to all take a different meaning when you're suffering. That suffering may actually contribute to your ability to find meaning, that there's a purpose to suffering. get something for your suffering. Yep. Yep, as a matter of fact, that's one of the great ways that people who are finding meaning of their life actually find it is they stop trying to avoid their suffering. This is an interesting thing. There's a formula that the Tibetan Buddhists have. That suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance. Pain times resistance.

And when you're trying to lower your pain to get rid of your suffering, it's pretty ineffective. Why? Because your pain is going to come back. that people who baby their back because their back hurts wind up with a lot more back pain. They always do because they get weaker and they become more sedentary. The way to actually to make your suffering more productive is not by lowering the pain, but by lowering your resistance to the pain. To be saying, I'm not going to resist. I'm going to learn how to live, how to grow and learn.

And by the way, you and I as Christians, I mean, what's the most amazing thing to me is that Christian people who are trying to avoid their suffering, they worship a man who's suffering. And we don't want to suffer. Are you kidding me? My Savior is suffering. And I'm like, but me, I don't know, man. It's like, I don't want to go a couple extra days waiting for that money. You know, I don't want to have an argument with my wife. My savior is on the cross. But me, nah, I'm annoyed because I can't get, you know, because the cable's out. By the way, as you were talking, I was thinking of that very thing. I was thinking of Jesus when you were talking. I think sometimes we conflate that he died for our sins and that we're

saved, that somehow that means we all escape suffering as well. Right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's really interesting. And, you know, I'm Catholic. I know you're Protestant, but it's interesting because we're taping this the day after the reading in the Catholic Church was where John the Baptist's followers, John the Baptist is in prison. And his followers come and find Jesus and say, are you the one we've been waiting for, but what they're really saying is, aren't you the one we've been waiting for? Why aren't you doing something about John who's over there in prison? And Jesus actually says, in no small and, and, you know, an indirect way, this is the point that's like, you got to suffer. This is the will of God is to actually suffer sometimes. But the reward is so much greater. And the

truth is, even for those of us who are, for those who are listening to us who are not religious believers, you must lean into your suffering because only, because growth and learning comes from suffering. Suffering is your teacher. You want to find the meaning of her life. This is one of the six ways you got to do it is learning how to understand and live with your suffering. Love you guys. So good. By the way, those of you that are not religious, we're about to shift the neuroscience in a minute. So hang in there. We're going to go to the brain. But before we do that, I want to ask you about one other element that I think can bring meaning to life, which is service. Yeah. Speaking of Jesus, what's he do before he dies? He gets his guys together and washes their feet,

Right. So what about that element of finding something that you serve, that you care for that you that you love? I know it's in the book, but they haven't read the book yet. So what about that element of finding meaning in one's life and service? This is one of the other six means of doing so is by transcending yourself. And one of the things that people don't often understand is that that Mother Nature doesn't care if we're happy at all. Mother Nature just wants us to survive and pass on our genes. Happiness and meaning that that's our business. That's how we, that's our moral aspiration as opposed to our animal impulse, which is such a beautiful thing that we have this incredible brain that allows us to choose between animal impulse and moral aspiration. And we're doing it

all day long. But mother nature says, focus on yourself all the time because that's going to be good for you. It's good for getting another meal or getting another mate. It's horrible for your happy. It's horrible for your sense of meaning in life. And so what you need to do is to stop focusing on yourself. And that's one of the reasons that we talk, I talk in this book about this method of finding meaning which is transcendence. And that means transcending yourself by standing in awe of something greater than you, maybe through religion, maybe through nature, maybe through music, maybe through philosophy,

and focusing on others and not just yourself, focusing on the needs of other people. It's so transcendent and it gives you so much meaning. The fast path to finding the meaning of your life is to stop focusing on yourself and go serve other people who need you. You will experience meaning. If you run a business, you know it's not just what you do, but the time you spend doing it. And nothing waste more time faster than messy accounts payable issues. Bills everywhere, approvals dragging, vendors blowing you up. It's the kind of low value work that keeps you busy instead of profitable.

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By the way, you guys, I could tell you, even like a day like today, kind of an odd day for me. And I have now built these patterns. I can't wait to do the show because at least for that hour of my life, I feel as if I'm in service of other people. and all my issues that are going on in my life, good or bad, I almost escape a different state. I wanted to ask you about this. In the book, you talk about the left and the right brain,

I just did this event. I only do it once a year. It's like an all-day thing in my house. I have 20 people come in, and I do a ton of like RAS programming and cognitive rehearsal and visualization stuff that I teach these groups. and one of the

throughout the training I play the movie The Matrix I play Clips. Yeah. I book, The Power of One More. I have, it's called The One.

Well, that's Neo, right? And then the Messiah of Jesus is the ultimate one. So I love the Matrix. And I actually told this group to some extent, you live in a simulation to some

and you actually simulations in the book, and the Matrix is in the book. Right. And I wonder, do we get the life we're also looking for? In other words, do we scan? Is there a part of our brain that has habituated itself into its conditioned to scan our environment, scan our life to deliver to us what we're most familiar with? Right. No, of course, of course. And that's a, you know,

there's people have always done that. I mean, the things that you're familiar with are the things that you actually see, the things you're actually aware of. But the point that you're, you're making about the Matrix is really important. So for our listeners and viewers who are not super familiar with this, the Matrix was one of the most, one of the most popular movies of the year in 1999 when it came out. And it had this crazy science fiction plot in which something, I don't know, maybe you'd call it an artificial intelligence crazy. Computers were actually controlling humanity. And they were taking their energy from humans. And the way that they did that was by anesthetizing humans, keeping them in pods, sucking off their energy, and playing a simulation into the human

mind. Well, guess what, friends? We're in the matrix. We're actually living a simulation. If your life is largely one that's simulated through a screen is mediated by, you know, you're going to work on Zoom and you're dating on apps and your friends are on social media and your sense of accomplishment is coming through gaming and on and on and on and on, then what's actually happening is it's not real life, it's a simulation of real life. And your brain isn't made to do that. Your brain simply can't do that. And here's what's going on, and here's the neuroscience, Ed, that we promised we'd talk about.

What happens is when you're in the matrix, when you're in the simulation, you're being relegated to the left hemisphere of your brain. The left hemisphere of your brain is all the what and how-to questions, including all the technology and hustle and grind. And the right side of your brain is all the mystery and the meaning. all of the things you really care about, all the love that you actually care about. That's the right side of your brain.

When you're online all day, you're on the left side of your brain. But on the right side of your brain, that's where you answer and deal with meaning questions. So not only do you not know the meaning of your life when you're living in the simulation, you're not even asking the questions, and that's why life feels empty.

The one thing you can't simulate is the meaning of life. Oh my gosh, you guys. By the way, that's the book title, the meaning of your life. Go get it. You guys, there's not a lot of books. I'm really kind of firm on with you. Like, go get the book, okay?

I'm telling you there, first off, it's also an easy read. But I got to tell you, so many of you, these are the questions that I get asked the most. Have you had a moment in your own life, like a seminal moment on this topic? Is that why you wrote the book? Was there like a moment? I'm sure there's been a series, but is there one that stands out where you were suffering or struggling with this? Yeah, I mean, I did have a significant meaning crisis. Now, not to the extent that I see with my students who don't remember the before times, by the way,

who don't remember before people were living in the Matrix. But, you know, I was a CEO for a long time, and it was a great run. I ran a company in Washington, D.C. for 11 years. And I retired at 55, which was six years ago, for those who were keeping score. That's how old I am. And when I retired, I was just meant, and I was spent. I was empty. The tank was empty.

I'd been working 80 hours a week. And I made a bunch of mistakes during those years personally. I mean, I hadn't paid enough attention to my family. And furthermore, I'd been super. I'd get more and more addicted to my devices as kind of pacifying me and distracting me. And so the result of it was that I just wasn't all there. My life really didn't have a sense of meaning. And look, I've always been strong in my religious views, but none of us is safe.

None of us is safe from this. I mean, every Christian or believer or anything is that that's not your insurance policy. You still have to do the work. And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. So I did what Catholics have done for more than a thousand years when they don't know what to do. I went for a very long walk.

That's what we do. I walked across the northern part of Spain. This is called the Camino de Santiago. It's an ancient walk from 1,100 years ago. And the way is a Martin Sheen movie from, I think, 2003 that made it really. popular again. And I did it. I did it with my wife. And I was like just I'm just I'm trying to find something. I'm just trying to find it. And we walked and we walked and we walked. And so what did happen on? I was doing something really repetitive with my beloved holding hands, praying, going to mass

every day. I didn't have my devices. I wasn't in the matrix anymore. I was able to think deeply. I was asking and discussing very deep questions with my beloved. I was and and I was living in a different way and by the end, meaning found me. Meaning found me, my mission of my life found me. And I thought to myself, huh, what's this all about? And that's when I went back to academia. That's when I retired and went back to the university, which was very unheimlich to go back to the beginning of this conversation.

I said, aha, God put me back at the university because my little problem and solving it was the solution to a very big problem that I'm finding here. So do you recommend, I mean, let's just get into the teeth of it a little bit. Is it, is this device thing our primary enemy on this simulation on this matrix? And if you do believe that, then are you, if we were best friends and you were talking to your best friends here, there's a couple million of them, would you say, hey, not just put it down, but maybe one day a week, Sundays, no devices. Yeah. or something like that, just escape it. So you can actually get, you can feel a little,

briefly feel what it's like to be out of it. Yeah, for sure. And I have protocols in this book about actually how to do that. So the devices aren't the whole problem. The biggest problem is that our society has become one big machine. That's the real problem. I mean, the way that we treat work, the way that we treat life,

the way that we treat school is very anti-human. It's not based on relationships anymore. It's based on protocols. and metrics and efficiency. That's really what it comes down to. And the devices are just kind of a metaphor for the whole way that we're living our life. Where our species should be called homo-economicus, because that's kind of how we're living, man. I mean, it's like you go to school and they say, you're an idiot if you're not studying STEM.

You're studying literature and philosophy? What a moron, right? These humanistic things that you're actually studying. And the result is that, you know, all the way that we deal with each other is in this very mechanistic way. And that's one of the reasons that strivers, people who are college educated, they're suffering the most because they're most inside the machine of our society. They're most likely to be doing the kind of work that's highly, highly efficiency oriented and machine oriented. You find the people who have blue collar jobs, they're doing better emotionally than people who have white collar jobs today. You find that people who didn't go to college, on average, you're doing better emotionally than people who did go to college.

And that's because people, the more that you're in the white collar, you know, college, education is set the more you're getting pushed through the machine and the more your life is actually going to be geared toward the screens. That's that's absolutely the case. So that's the big danger that we're seeing today. So how do you get out of it? And again, I have a whole chapter on how to get clean. Number one, you actually can't go live in a new way if you don't get clean in the first place. And I've been in and out of, you know, doing research on addiction communities for a long time. And the whole thing is you can't go live a new way until you've actually gotten clean. And so getting clean is the step one is step one and and i've got protocols on how to deal with this with your life and

and very specifically with your devices and and here's the way to do it an hour after you wake up no devices for an hour why because that sets your day during meals never using devices never eat or spend always if you can eat with other people and never eat with devices and last but not least never actually have your devices for the last hour before you go to sleep and don't have in your bedroom. This is the protocol. Now, there are other zones. We shouldn't have any devices in any classrooms. No small screens in any classrooms in America from kindergarten through PhD. It is insanity that we're doing this for kids. It's pure, straight on child abuse and neglect is what it comes down to. And last but not least, we need a break. If you're going to take a Sabbath break,

that's great. But I recommend at least four days a year. I'd go on a spiritual retreat four days a here. No devices. It's a game changer. If you do just the things that I've talked about here, your life is going to start feeling real different. So good, Arthur. So as you and I are recording this morning, I'm sure you saw this, that Rob Reiner and his wife were killed. We're murdered. You're murdered. And it sounds as if it was their son. And the only reason that I bring this up is that a little while ago I was introduced to this situation and that this young man was struggling. The reason I bring it up is that and the struggle without being too personal or specific because it may end up being that that wasn't the case, but I'm pretty sure that it was.

And I'm sure he suffered from mental illness as well. But having said all that, there was no depth of relationships in his life, including the one he claimed with his father. And so the reason I bring this up is you bring it up in the book. Now, this is an extreme example. But even in my own life, people always say, gosh, you've got so many friends. They've all these well-known people or whatever. And I always, after they say that, I think, I do have, my friendships are wide. Right. Only a couple are deep. Right. I wish I had more depth of relationships with people. I wish I had gone deeper with certain, so to speak. And you talk about, this in the book and I think it's a skill set that especially young people have never learned

their surface relationships their digital relationships right because of the pandemic they they literally were away from one another and I think it's I think it's one of the most dangerous places to be in your life is not building deeper relationships I'm pretty sure that that was one element of what took place today with this with Rob and his and his son Can you just elaborate on that and any skill, I know you agree with, any skill sets that you would suggest to somebody to be better? Because I think people listen to, I would like deeper friendships. Yeah.

Or it could be closer to my own spouse. Yeah. So the way to think about this, Ed, it's a great point. And I do talk about this an awful lot in the book because the solution to a lot of this is loving better and deeper. But love is what you do with people, right? You don't love things. You love people.

You use things. By the way, you don't use people. And that really points out this idea, this important point, that a lot of people today, they think they have a lot of friends. If they're very successful, for example, I'll say, are your friends real friends or deal friends? Real and deal. And you know the difference. There's nothing wrong with having people who are useful to you.

But you've got to have people who are useless to you. It's very important. Then I say, do you have real friends? friends or virtual friends. And the brain cannot accommodate virtual friends. It can't. Our brains are still the same as they were 250,000 years ago. And that is to say that we make our real relationships and our biochemistry. It actually produces neuropeptides like oxytocin in our brain that bond us to other people. When we're in person and we have eye contact and touch, and especially when we're sitting around the campfire, eating a bunch of yak meat with each other and talking about our day, that's

how we actually bond with each other. And that's how our brains are designed. Whether you think God did it or just plain old evolution, that's a fact. That's a neurobiological fact. And you're not going to get it when it's all deal and you're going to get almost none of it if it's all virtual. And so those are the two things to stop. Now, one thing you put it out that's really important, which is married couples. Married couples break up when they go from real love to deal love.

It's always the case. And so what you find is, for example, I mean, when couples break up after, five years is because they actually never became friends. They were passionate about each other, but they never became companions in a real friendship way. But when couples break up after 25 years, they all have almost all have the same thing in common. It was all the business of raising the kids. It was deal friends, deal friends, deal friends. And Scott, you're useful to me, I'm useful to you. We have this one, the only thing that we have in common, like you have with your colleagues, what you have in common is the business, what you have in common with your spouse is the kids.

And the kids grow up and they move away and you talk to. them once a week and you're looking at each other like, who the heck are you? Who is this person sitting across the table from me? Well, I don't really have much in common with you. And that's when they break up because it was all deal, no real. They also create, gosh, you guys, this is so good. Are you like me when you're listening to Arthur, reflecting on your own world and your own life, your own friendships? By the way, that in and of itself is healthy. Some self-reflection, some introspection, some self-awareness. We lack so much of this in our world today.

And obviously these devices are part of it. I put devices in that category, though, of distraction, etc. But a lot of people legitimately would say, that's all true, but I am really busy. And I want to talk about busyness. So someone driving in their car right now is like, this is so good. But I am currently dropping my kids off at school. Then I'm going to get to work. Then after work, I've got this thing I've got to go do.

I'd like to get to the gym. I've got to pick my kids back up. Then we got soccer practice. Then we got in Little League. I got this thing I got to do at church. I got to make sure I call my mom. I've got this hobby I do on the side. I'd like to maybe start my personal brand to write a book.

And all of a sudden, it's busy. And you almost call busyness. I think you refer to it as like emotional anesthesia. Are people, is it that they're so busy? Or is it that they're creating all of this busyness so that they don't have to be introspective or self-reflective? It's a very profound question. and it's a question that almost answers itself for everybody listening to us.

You know, it's like, I have to do all these things. Well, no, you're doing all those things because there's one thing that humans hate, which is boredom. One thing that humans hate, which is idleness. But here's the point. Once again, Mother Nature doesn't care if you hate it. Life was boring. And that's the way your brain is supposed to work for a lot of the time. I guarantee you that there's one thing that great-granddad, grandfather, Milet, never said to great-grandma.

which is, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today. And the reason is because his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. His hypothelamic pituitary axis wasn't getting flooded arbitrarily and suddenly from the outside world because he was bored a lot. But he didn't think his life was boring. He didn't come home and complain his life was boring either. His life was just his life. And that's the way life is supposed to work.

But we figured out through modern life, through the machine, modern life is a machine. Modern life is a simulation, and we've created it because we don't like being bored. What happens? Guys, let me tell you something. Factor's made a big difference in my life. Just talking to one of my producers, he says, I just ordered with Factor. Why? He's got big goals just like you and I do. Factor makes healthy eating easy with fully prepared meals designed by dieticians and crafted by chefs. Let me tell you something. Super nutritious food prepared by a chef. That's what we're talking about here. No matter what your nutrition plan is, they've got a meal for you. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, none of that weird seed oil stuff. And here's the cool thing. It's yummy.

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had that tan sweater on. Where'd you get it? I can tell you where I got it. Quince. That's what Quince does best, premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on, even as the weather shifts. So I've been wearing Quince a lot on the show. Like I said, kind of joking, but not really. A lot of you said, hey, man, looks like you've upgrading your wardrobe. Really, I'm spending less to do it too, because Quince works directly with top factories, cuts out the middle, man, so you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. So, in your case, refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com slash ed for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash ed. Free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash ed. It's when you're bored. There's a set of structures in your brain called the default mode network,

and it turns on when you're doing nothing else. And we don't like it, but you need it to find the meaning of your life. You need it to understand yourself. It's a little uncomfortable. especially when you're not used to it. That's, by the way, that's the reason that everybody has their best big ideas in the shower.

It's because there's nothing to do in there except stand under the water. Your phone isn't in there, I hope. I mean, it turns out it's waterproof. You could take it in there, but don't do that. The touchscreen doesn't work right. And we need more times. So I prescribe boredom to people, you know, to my students.

I make them actually have periods. I make them stop listening to music or especially even to podcast during their workout, to not listen, no headphones during workout. I asked them to start commuting without headphones, their walk to school or their drive to work without headphones, having regular periods of actual quiet and introspection. And at first it's like screaming inside your head

and then pretty soon you start to feel more equilibrated and then calmer and then better because of that one intervention. It's really unbelievable what we're talking about. So that's literally I just spent the last four days on. By the way, you activate the default mode network in your brain, you guys, is close your eyes and pray. Yeah. You've been taking away all the external.

Yeah. I love talking to you and I wish that we could do it a lot longer, but I want to put the, I want to turn the camera literally onto you. And if someone asked you, they ran to you, Starbucks, said, hey, I heard you on Ed, my Lett Show, I got the book, meeting of your life. I'm really working on these different strategies you have in the book. I'm more self-reflective, I'm more self-aware. I'm trying to activate both parts of my brain on a regular basis. But if someone said to you, Mr. Brooks, what's the meaning of your life? Right.

If your grandkids were to ask you that. Yeah. The answer to that question for you. What's the meaning of your life? The meaning of my life is that I was placed on earth by God to serve others, to lift others up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas that God has graced me with the knowledge to actually share with others. That's the meaning of my life.

The meaning of my life is love. Love is reflected through my family and friend relationships and love that I can actually bring to other people as a refraction of the divine love of God. That's what I'm trying to do every single day, largely in the secular world with my show, with my university teaching, whatever it happens to be. And certainly through my books, that's the meaning of my life. The meaning of my life is to love and serve. Guys, did you see how reflexive that answer was? That's indicative of somebody who, what a beautiful answer, by the way. That's indicative of somebody who's done the work that he's referencing here.

He's walking the walk, literally. Talked about those walks. Yeah, kind of walk your way into it. Way into it. But I wonder everybody, if I asked you that question, I say this as a friend. I ask myself this question. Yeah. The answer be that reflexive.

How about you, Ed? Can you tell me yours? I am most at home, most happy, feel the most valuable and the most loved myself when I am loving and serving other people and connecting with them too. I'll tell you what I've built the ability to do, Arthur, that I'm really proud of. I look, people would call it giftedness, but since you're a man of faith, I'll say it to you. I am fascinated when I meet people of finding what I call the Christ in them. What's the two or three things God gave them? Like this thing is that they're in your case it's so obvious that he gave you this incredible

heart to love your family and in the Lord but this unbelievable intellect and then he combined it with this tremendous ability to articulate it. Those are like that's the Christ in you. I see it in you right and that could be someone's humor their beauty their nurturing skills their toughness their relentlessness their touch. I love that and I love I feel I'm in best service to people and feel the most meaning in my own life when I point Christ in them out to them and then believe that that's why they were born and that that's why they're special and that they do have value and they do have meaning. I feel the most alive when I do that. And I do feel that's a gift of mine. I think that's why the interviews are

usually pretty darn good. I think there are too. And to say there's one thing that I think that people can, as no doubt they will see this because they're fans of yours. But to take it to a really very deep level on this. Everybody has something that you need. And it's interesting because I had a student asked me one time. I was talking about this that to give also means to give somebody else the gift of letting them give to you. Because that's the essence of humanity, right? And one of my students say, challenged me. He said, well, you know, we were in New York at the time. And I said, what about a homeless guy out on the street? What does he have to give to me? And I thought about it. He's stump me. And I went home and I prayed about it and I thought about it. And I thought to myself,

I think I had the answer. So I went out and the next time I met a homeless guy, which is five minutes later on the street in New York City, he asked for something. And I don't give money to homelessness because there's a lot of pathology and addiction. But I got him some food. And then I said this. I said, and we, I need to ask you for something too. And he said what? And he said, I need you to pray for me and my family. Because God hears the cries of the poor. I literally needed his prayers, and so do all of us. So I challenge everybody here to think about what it actually means to be needed,

what dignity actually means. To find Christ in every person means to find Christ and to see the face of Jesus in the homeless man and to ask him for your prayers and to find something. that everybody can actually give in the spirit of the dignity that need to. You guys, come on, how good are these conversations? I have, these are so good. All right, I'm supposed to let you go because I only promised you a certain window of time. You just, every time you write one of these, just come back, okay?

I love it. I love your show. I love what you're actually doing, and the service that you're providing for everybody. And your own journey of finding meaning in your life and bringing more service and loved other people is really an inspiration. to everybody because here's the thing. It's very easy to look at you, Ed and go, hey, man, Ed, my lead's got a lot of dough. He's got it made. He's in Pontavidra.

You know, he's got multiple houses. I don't know what he got a helicopter or whatever. The whole point is that you must be happy. And that's actually not how the journey works. That's not it. One thing that you and I both know, you'll never be perfectly happy in this life, right? I mean, you can be happier. There's only one place where you're going to be happy.

and that's afterward. And so the whole point is that this life, that pilgrimage I made across northern Spain, life is a pilgrimage. And having the meaning unveil itself to you through doing the work that we're actually talking about, that you have an enviable life or continuing to do the work just like everybody else. That's the key takeaway, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. Also, I was just thinking as you were talking that the idea that this notion that you believe

you're supposed to be happy all the time is a fallacy. and that standard is unfair yeah next of life the points you made earlier about suffering yeah you could just think when you're in a great you know you and i would refer to it as the holy spirit other people might refer to it as frequency yeah acting with another good person and goodwill and there's fellowship between two people as you said earlier and that are both trying to contribute to to good you just you can't help but feel grateful and be happy no two or more are gathered the lord is present And I actually, I mean this like sincerely, like when I'm with you and we talk and both, you know, it's been digital both times, I feel the goodness of the world.

I feel God when I talk with you. And that's just, that's a compliment to you, but it's also just this, this is what we're doing right here, what we're doing together. And you could be doing it in a coffee shop with a friend or a homeless person, everybody. That's part of the meaning of life of what you just experienced with, with Arthur and I here today, at least in my opinion. Me too. Me too, my brother.

I appreciate the time with you. I advise you it very much. And thanks to everybody who are listening to us today. I hope it's valuable and uplifting for them too. There certainly is. I don't need to push the book, but I'll do it one more time. The meaning of your life, Arthur Brooks, you guys go get it and share this episode. Someone needs this one and you know it.

Okay, everybody. God bless you. Max out. This is the Edmunds show.