THE ED MYLETT SHOW - The Power Of Persuasion w/ Stephen A. Smith

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

This is an absolutely astonishing conversation with Stephen A. Smith.Stephen A. Smith is the most influential force at ESPN and has built a massive brand and makes a huge impact on sports and culture every day.So how did he do it?This week, Stephen A. reveals what it takes to get to the TOP of your career… in his case its the sports entertainment world as a producer, podcaster, radio show host, and a New York Times Best Selling author AND one of the most influential voices in sports entertainment.Stephen A. reveals his strategies for building confidence and shares how he overcame obstacles such as dyslexia and childhood bullying. He also discusses the importance of mastering every part of your business, combining it with humility, and how to impact social change.But that's not all! Stephen A. shares his take on:👉🏽 What it takes to maintain confidence👉🏽 The power of practice and preparation👉🏽 The key to persuasion👉🏽 Why he believes in the "I DON'T CARE" factor👉🏽 And navigating the challenges of ethnicity and equity in sports🚨 PLUS HE REVEALS HIS PICK ON WHO’S THE GOAT: Michael Jordan or LeBron James?!? 🚨As a bonus, you'll get to hear about Stephen A.'s experiences working with some of the most genuine and talented people in the world.With his unparalleled insight and infectious energy, Stephen A. will keep you engaged from start to finish.Don't miss out on this incredible opportunity to learn from one of the greatest sports media icons of our time!

This is the Ed Millett Show. Welcome back everybody. You've got a list of people I wanted to have on the show for a long time. I produce this and there's this short list of people that I've always wanted to talk to personally. I want to get to know them better. This man is one of the people on that list. Unfortunately for us, he's got a new book out called Straight Shooter. And it's a New York Times best seller. It's been crushing.

And this man's life and career is just really exploded the last decade. I had a lot of hard work for many, many years to get where he is. He's become a household name. He's really an icon in sports media. And I had no idea the struggle of his life to get where he is. And I was actually moved a couple times basically to water in the eyes. Terry I'd reading his work and hearing his story. So grateful to have Stephen A Smith on the show today. Stephen, welcome, brother. And on a DMA, thanks for having me. How you doing? I'm doing good. And I got to tell you, I saw you, by the way, and I was reading your story and I want to kind of just get into it because I've always

been fascinated by you. I watch you almost every morning. I grab about 20 minutes with you guys almost every morning as I'm getting ready for my day. And I don't know why. I just said this feeling about you that was wrong like this guy's had it pretty easy. He's just got this swagger and confidence about him. Everything in his life, because you're so talented, you know, skilled, I think it's probably more of the right word

because you've worked at these skills. And then I'm reading in your book, and there's just so many things, like the first literally paragraph of the book, gripped me. But then as we move on, I want to kind of skip around a little bit. You start out your life,

your hellback kind of in the third grade, this isn't listening to everybody. It's one of the most articulate and men with the best vocabulary and all of television. Your hellback in the third grade, you scoot through in summertime, so you do make it to the fourth grade, and then you actually get hellback in the fourth grade. And there's this incredible story about you over here and your mom and dad talking. And I know you've told it on a few shows, but I hope you can tell it like it's the first time here because I think this will move people. To you get a little bit of adversity in your life you can overcome it so share that story with them. Well, um, appreciate you having me. I think, uh, just recalling it, um, you know, I have to get left back in the third grade of previous June and having everybody and all the kids in the neighborhood and stuff like that laughing at you. That was humiliating enough. And then after repeated, and the fourth grade did we

repeat that experience. And this time held back for the whole year. Having to repeat that was excruciating the humiliating. And so when the guys in neighborhood were laughing at me or whatever, I went to my back porch that I cried. And I was laying in my back. I was in rather than my back porch to my mother's house. And I was Queens, New York. And there was a little window and gap separating the kitchen from the back porch.

And it was an open window there. And my mother and father were talking and my mother was informing my father that I had got looked back again. And my father looked at her and he said, look, the boy just ain't smart. He ain't going to be any, he's not going to be any, he's not going to do anything with his head. He just needs to accept that now and get over and get it over with. And I heard him say that clear as day. And for some reason, I don't know what my mother heard, but my mother came to that window.

And she looked out and she just had this horrifying look when she saw me looking through the window. And she saw that I saw and heard what he had said. And you know, she, you know, through the grace of God, my mother was a wonderful, wonderful, woman, greatest woman I've ever known. She, you know, he was imploring her to give up on me. And she wasn't happy.

She refused to relent in any way. She believed in me. And she believed that whatever struggles that I was having in this particular instance, it was reading comprehension, which ultimately was diagnosed dyslexia. Um, she was just determined to make me overcome it and, and, and for me to make something to myself. And so she wouldn't, he's words, she wouldn't need his counsel or his advice at all. But that's what happened. Thank God that, uh, there's these lights in our lives. You know, you name the book after your mother is what I've lost.

Yes. And you know, there's these moments in our lives where there's these people that believe in us that just give us a glimpse of what's possible in our lives. But as I watch you every day, I'm like, this dude had dyslexia and gets held back. Like this is hard to imagine. But then there's a couple of things that I've noticed about you over the years. And I want you to share this because in the seat of every adversity, right, there's some kind of blessing if you find it. So this dyslexia, your sister is another saint in your life, right?

Your oldest sister, I think, is it Linda? Linda. Linda. Linda. Linda ends up telling what your sister did for you. And ultimately, I think there's the connection with this dictionary that I want to ask you about. So can you tell them what your sister did with you? Because there's these people that pour into a life and then where everybody has somebody help and become successful, but this is extraordinary. Well, my sister Linda was an educator. She graduated as a valid teacher

and from high school level as well. She was a brilliant, brilliant woman. But she still is. She was a lives of this dad on me to speak about it in the past tense. I'm just talking about that at a particular moment of time in terms of helping me. And she was, she

was aware, obviously my mother told her what my father had said about me. And Linda recognized how humiliated and embarrassing I was. And she was like, we all become this. And so from that moment forward, she was literally sitting me down every day. And she told me how to read her.

And on a separate occasion alone with a childhood friend named Timber. He was the big brother of one of my best friends, Bonnie Robertson growing up. And he would teach, he was a brilliant person himself and he would always teach me how to read. But it really started with my sister Linda. She was sitting me down every day.

She would go over things to read, then matter whether it was social studies, it was political science, it was, it was for what it didn't matter what it was, and if she could get her hands on, she would force me to read, and we would go over it over and over and over again. And I'm talking about every day for it's the year to two years.

She was just relentless with the she wouldn't stop. She was that dedicated to my growth and my upliftment. And she would remind me, you want to be dad, right? You want daddy to be right? What are you saying about you? You want this to be, you know, your narrative, the lack of a better word. She would say these things to me,

to motivate me and encourage me to push forward in the work hard and to put forth my level of due diligence and perseverance and overcome, you know, what I was going through and I'm sure I don't know how it happened. She was the one that told me I had what they called dyslexia. She said these are clear signs of symptoms of it and she was like, she is how we're going to overcome it. She would do is, she said, these are clear signs and symptoms of it. And she was like, tears how we're gonna overcome it. What you do is, she encouraged me and started me off. She said,

anything you don't understand, any word, any use of the word in a sentence structure, whatever you don't understand, you stop. You grab the dictionary and you pick it up, you read it, you look at the definition of the word and see how it's utilized. And you don't move on until you understand what that is. And her reasoning, her rationale,

and I really didn't get into it at this point in the book. What her rationale was is that you're losing confidence when you don't understand. So what we're going to do is we're going to make sure how slow, how much of a slow role it is, no matter how long it takes, what we're going to make sure is that you understand what you're reading sentence by sentence paragraph by paragraph, chapter by chapter. We don't care how long it takes because the

objective is for you not to get through a whole bunch of reading material. the objective is to make sure you understand whatever it is you're reading. No matter how little the content is or how extensive the content is. Once you do that, you'll see your confidence elevate. And as a result of your confidence elevating, you'll be able to move forward with more degree, with more degree of confidence. That was a strategy and then did I work into perfection? You to this day still do that, don't you? You'll use a dictionary. Is that, I'm going to, but you know,

if I don't understand the word or is usage, I will stop. I will call up to dictionary on my phone. I will look up the word. I will look up the sentence structure in which it's used to make sure I copy the end of the change and then I will move on. What's crazy about this to me is that I have the theory that if you can survive temporary pain on your life and everybody goes through pain of some type, but if you can survive it and get through it on the other side of temporary pain, I always say, you meet another

version of yourself. You meet some technical talent, ability, whatever it might be about you. You didn't have before you've had this level of pain. And for you, one of the things I don't even know if you realize this, but when I watch you, one of the things I've always been struck by is your vocabulary. Like no one on TV ever said, that's blasphemous until Stephen A. Smith, right? Like there's these words you use and you know it, you do it as a little bit of an art form, kind of a character sometimes, I think, but you use these words that most people aren't

familiar with from time to time. And I have to think like part of that has to be the fact that you're at your face in a dictionary. That's the irony of this whole thing. You don't have, you don't get held back. You don't find out you get dyslexia. You don't start putting your nose in a dictionary all the time. You probably don't have the vocabulary you have now that's that's one of the skills you've used to build this prolific career. Isn't that ironic? It is ironic, and that's why my mother was so proud. Like, you know, if I were a basketball player or a professional athlete,

you know, something like that, she would have been proud of me and the lower body citizen. I'm not in jail. I don't break any laws or anything like that. So she would have been proud of me, but there was an extra oath to it Over what I had become successful at, I had become a successful journalist which required being read and the right. And it's exactly what my impediment was in elementary

school. And so it always touched my mother in a way that that's what I was successful at doing. But I remember one of my one of my most fun moments on television occurred like literally a few months ago. I was on there with Dan Olowsky who's a football analyst for ESPN does an exceptional job and we were joking around and he said something about a word that I said and that I said in quotient, that he was like spelling, like I didn't know. And I spelled the L-O-Q-D-W-A-C-I-L-U-S, that he said, and I said per-snickety, and he said, what is spelling?

And I said that, in another word, I said actually, that's the rule, he used it the word is this way, and it's how it's spelled, and he was like, whoa! You know, it was like, because they, they, you know, folks joke around, and they look at me and say, well, he uses these words, but then they really realized, well, damn, you know, folks joke around and they look at me and say, well, he uses these words, but then they really realize, well, damn, he really knows it.

You know what I mean? He knows it, he knows how to spell it, he knows what it means, et cetera, et cetera. And it was, it was fun because for me, it was validation that it's not a joke. It's not something that I just do. And I just say, all right, just what I'm doing and you, you, you,

you and I think that is the case, but it very well is the case. I'm still that guy that looks in addiction every. I'm still that guy that didn't proper spelling, proper definition, proper context and use of words and things of that nature. I still pay attention to those things and I still haven't perfected it

and I'll never perfected it. I'll never perfect it. The point is, is that if forces me to do my due diligence, I'm reading our article in the Wall Street Journal just the other day, one of my favorite columnists in the world is Peggy Nune, and I've never met her, or anything like that, but I think she's an absolutely fabulous columnist, and there were three words

that she had in there that I never saw before. And so I stopped reading and went to the dictionary and looked up the words and it's usage. It's just what I do. It's just what I do. So I love doing the show because people can meet the goats. I mean, you're one of the goats in your craft

and they hear the stories of how they became this. It's just unreal. Those of you that are listening, some of your greatest deficiencies can end up being the things that are the most gifted and talented at later in your life and the leverage of the things. The other thing that strikes me is this notion of confidence though. And, you know, you've interviewed for everybody from Michael, you everybody, Michael Jordan,

LeBron James, you talked with everybody. And I've always believed there is a direct correlation, I mean, between confidence and performance. And I watch you with you. There's a, look, there's an energy about you. I said swagger when I started, but really what it is is there's a confidence. There's an air of um, you know, I burn this, you know, I'm going to keep earning this every single day. I've put the work in. And when athletes lose their way, I work on the mental games of a lot of different athletes. When they lose it, it's people ask, well, what do you work with when you're on the mental games with most of the athletes you work with? You know what the truth is? Confidence,

yeah, operators typically come someone goes in a slow. It's their confidence level. So how is that played in for you? And what would you tell the world here about that topic of confidence? How you actually build it? What are some of the things to build confidence and how correlated is confidence to produce and even results for you? Well, first of all, I think it's important to know what you sign up for. Like, for example, before we started doing this interview, you let me know what this podcast is all about and what you strive to us, what you strive to achieve, what you're interviews, and what you strive to achieve overall with the podcast. It's mastering you and what you do, and in my to use

my language, knowing what you signed up for and fully embracing it. You have a lot of athletes for example because as you pointed out I cover many of them where a true, true, truly great ones are the ones who've accepted a long time ago. This is what I signed up for. This is what's required to exceed at a very high level. And this is what I'm going to do. Kobe Bryant, the late Kobe Bryant got arrested so it was a friend. He sat up there and pointed out he didn't negotiate with himself.

If he said he was getting up to 5'30s, getting up to 5'30s was not negotiable because he had already made that commitment and he wasn't going to compromise a commitment. He understood what he signed up for and from a physical perspective, there's a window. And when that window closes, it closes and it's okay because everybody can't do what they always did physically.

And my chosen profession, well, I happen to be able to do this for years to come. And so my confidence comes from the fact that I have a passion for what to come. And so my confidence comes from the fact that I have a passion for what I do. I know I'm knowledgeable about what I do. And now it comes down to my ability to convince you to see my truth, more than your ability to convince others to see your truth.

And I always believe I'm going to win. I never, ever, ever go into any scenario in terms of a debate format as it pertains to sports television and think that I am inferior to anyone. I do recognize the fact that there are those who came before me whose knowledge for the world of sports is far more extensive than mine because I can read about something but they were there.

I can talk about somebody but they talk to them. I understand the different advantages that they may have or whatever. But when it comes to communicating with the audience or though that's relevant, it's not applicable any to convincing them to see your side. It's not enough that you spoke to them. It's not enough that you was there for an event in person.

What matters is your presentation, how you articulate your thoughts, why you feel the way that you feel, what you wanna convey to an audience, the men in which you choose to convey your thoughts, your perspectives, your belief, to that audience, and what level of substantive foundation you have to back you up. Those things to proceed your presence in somebody's face or at an event. And that's where my domain comes in, because I've spoken to many people myself and I've interviewed

many people myself. But the other side to it is that I have a perspective that I think is relatable to the audience out there that I've targeted. Meaning I know who's the audience is. I know who's listening to me. I know who's talking about me. I know who's tuning in to watch me or to listen to me. So I'm armed and ready. And dangerous as hell when it comes to that because practice favors the prepared mind. And I was ready to go before the cameras ever came on. That's my mentality. And as a result of I'm never fearful, I never look at myself as second-fiddle, I literally for better or worse, look at everyone else on a platform

with me as if they're in my way because the audience is waiting to hear from me. That is the kind of mentality I have every single day that I'm in front of the camera. I love it. I watched you the other day. We don't have to get to this thing, but I just want to say a stick, knowledge how true is it? You just said, I watched you with Jay Williams the other day. You guys got into it. I know you know what I'm talking about. And this is the guy that played basketball at a pretty very high level. He had not got hurt probably the best. They basketball college player of the year, national champion, number 12 world prep. Jay Williams is the real deal.

Absolutely, real deal. And I watch you go toe to toe. Let me tell you one thing I notice about you. It's a subtlety. All great sales people have it. All great communicators have it. And it's super subtle. I don't even know if you're aware that you do it.

But I want to acknowledge something about you. And I want to have a lesson from it. One of the reasons you have such high confidence and so persuasive is, I think amateur persuaders, salespeople, marketers, broadcasters, debaters, like what Stephen does on the show, they try to get you to believe what they're saying. And that's one level of persuasion.

You do something real subtle, but it's different. Everyone at that table with you, by the way, is very good. And they're always trying to get people to believe what they're saying. The reason you're a level above is you're not doing that. You're trying to get people to believe you believe what you're saying. And that's a subtle difference. That's a subtletie that most people don't understand. If you're always trying to get people to believe what you're saying, you come across as a little bit desperate, a little bit underneath. But when you come from

a place of, you're going to believe, I believe this. You're going to believe, I believe it. The phraseology, the words, the framing of how you say things is very different. And in all television, this is the thing that he did. That's why I liked when you were on with Max. I thought Max was great, but Max, God bless him. He's a great broadcaster. He's always trying to get everybody to believe what he was saying, which is really good. You're trying to get him to believe you believe what you're saying. That's real persuasion. I don't care. I don't care. In other words, you know, listen, I think Max is a great broadcast and I think that acts is a great person. It didn't work out with us as partners

because in all honesty of what you just pointed out. For the purposes of the debate show, in my opinion, and I think my opinion matters when you've been number one for 11 years. I think my opinion should matter. And that's what I'm thinking. You can't succeed if you're overly concerned with what people think about what you have to say. You have to be about the business of being as factually correct, as substantive and legitimate as you can possibly be with no regard for what people feel in a debate for them. You can't worry about that.

They agree with you, they agree with you. If they don't, they don't. So what? They want to talk about you on stream media and use you as clickbait to create headlines. So why? It doesn't matter as long as they quote you accurately. Okay. And they made sure that the only third of what you said and contextualize it properly. I don't give two cents what anybody thinks

because my attitude is I believe this is where I stand. And you need to know that when you're watching me, that's exactly what I feel, that's exactly what I think and what I believe. Now, you can disagree, but understand you're disagreeing with me. You're not convincing me to disagree with me, because I don't feel that way. And I'm willing to stand on it

in the face of scrutiny, without being concerned. When Skip Bayless and I were together on first take on the SPN, that's why we jumped star the first take the way that we did. There were two people that did not care what anybody thought as long as they felt in their hearts, that they believed what they were saying, which is what he and I done saying, which is what he and I

done and which is what he and I did. With others like Max, you're right. There was an, it was important for him to convince you to see his way. I don't care whether you see my way or not. I see my way. And if matters to me. Yeah, I want everybody, honestly, I want you to go back and rewind the last two and a half minutes.

It applies to persuasion, but also your dream, whatever dream you're taking, you're presuming in your life, if you start getting caught up in what other people think about it, their opinions about it, that they don't think you can do it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Your vibrational frequency, your energy level, your certainty level, your confidence level is impacted by external results, feedback, information. You were just, you might still make it, but you've, you've increased the probability that you won't when you do that. Made the road tougher. You make it a lot tougher. So good, Steven.

Thank you for that. Like that was so, so good. Now, you said you've been number one for 10 or 11 years, which you have. Most people don't know because most people are new to the program, like new to watching sports, right? Like it's been a decade. That wasn't always the case. So I want you to imagine something everybody, you're pursuing your dream, you finally get a ticket to the big time and you're at your dream. So a lot of you are like that, that you're there right now, you're flowing. And you need some more money, you got a business growing, your family's growing, you get to a point and then bam, you lose it. It's taken. You're an entrepreneur that'll market change

and you'll loss your business or sales are down or you've poured through money or maybe you've lost a dream relationship. This man got the dream and then got fired or they basically didn't get renewed. And I didn't even know this until I read the book and this is where your mom comes in again and I know you've told this story.

But ESPN basically says your contract's gonna ended up sometime in June. They basically tell you like in May, like thanks for coming out. You don't need to come back anymore. And this is fascinating to me. This man was successful. He's got a house in Jersey. Most people don't know. He owned this house in Jersey at the time. Like a 50. I did my research brother, 5500 square foot house in Jersey. He gets canned. Instead of going home to his house, guess where he went, went back to Mama's house into the same bed, basically, that he grew up in. And he basically, he there for three days, you know, licking your wounds and feeling bad for yourself and being pissed. And then this straight shooter in your life, which is the title of the book, comes along and does what Tom,

what your mom did and the lesson there. Well, you know, it wasn't, at that time I wasn't our first take I had my own show quite frankly, which you got and canceled it went, it went from August of 2005 to January of 2007. I did about 327 shows, about 780 interviews that got canceled because of low ratings. And then after that, I was looking for to get my contract renewed

because I was still doing radio and I was still doing NBA, NBA shoot around what it was called at the time and then I got stripped from that because of a contract dispute and they kept me off in additional year and then in April of 2009, they told me that May 9th of that year was going to be my last day, even though my contract was to expire June 30th.

And I was devastated. I went home and lit my wounds for the speak. And I was furious. And I felt just completely sabotaged and sipping all of this other stuff. And my mother brought me breakfast. She left me alone for the first two days, then on, you know, after that, she brought me breakfast and on breakfast and a little tray of breakfast

was bagel, toasted bagel and hot tea. I'm West Indian and stuff like that. My family's from West Indian. These hot tea milk and sugar. And on the tray, she hand held mirror. And I was like, what was that? And she was like, I'm just wondering when you're gonna look at yourself. When you're gonna look at yourself, she said, and then she

lived in the me talking about how she had heard me talking, or many occasions, talking about the bosses, talking about what I didn't like, but I was displeased about whatever, whatever. And she said, you complained all the time, you complained about college, you complained about, you know, coworkers, you complained about bosses, except could play in about co-workers, you could play in about bosses, except you, except she said, you're not a boss and you wouldn't want anybody your space that was that negative

and complained like that. Why should the bosses want you? She said, so I'm sure that there's something that they did wrong. I'm sure that you deserve to go from having four jobs to having none. I'm sure all of that was true, but in the end, it's on you. You're the one that causes your attitude wasn't right. Your demeanor

wasn't right. Your spirit and your vibe wasn't right. You cover sports and you've got people in a locker room, you call cancerous. Well, what were you? If they were cancerous, what were you? And she point out that she asked me, she asked all of those questions all be it rhetorically. And then left, she said, you really need to spend the rest time here, whether it's gonna be a day or week or whatever, really, really looking at yourself.

And before you think about what you're gonna do next, ask yourself, what role did you pay in getting to this point where you are unemployed and wondering whether or not you're gonna have a career. And she walked out and left it, lick my own wounds and to absorb everything that she said. And so it was really, really hard. I mean, that's hard to hear from anybody,

but actually, your own mother. And, but that's what she told me. And I remember it I never forgot it held on to it It was it was a life altering experience because from that moment forward. I never blamed anybody else again. I took the blame Huge lesson right there. You also I've already told you that time and you kind of here's what I see happen to a lot of people in life And I know you see this you you see with athletes, you see with colleagues, years, they kind of start to believe they're press clippings a little bit. Or they have like an overestimation of how far down the road or how untouchable they are.

You know what I'm saying? And I think in that case, you're saying is, yeah, you go out and public and everybody knew you, you're like, hey, I must be doing well, but you didn't even know your own metrics, your own data. And people, the fall of most people is they get some success and they start to believe it. And they start to think they're gonna have it forever and they don't do the things they did that gets them there. They don't have the same level of humility. Don't even have the nuance.

I think there's a new, the people that I really admire in my life that are really good friends of mine, they have this new ones and it's difficult of tremendous self-confidence combined really good friends of mine. They have this nuance and it's difficult of tremendous self confidence combined with some level of humility. And the people that I know that ton of humility with no confidence, they don't ever get around to do it.

Anything because they don't have any confidence. And the people I know that have a bunch of confidence, but don't nuance it with some humility, they can fall because they're the ones that will make the mistake. They maybe they don't work like they once worked or their attitude, like what you've described with you, their attitude is maladjusted because they have some overestimation of where they are. So I'd like you to talk about that. And then secondly,

the fact that you knew after that, you were going to eventually need a team of people around you. And I don't think enough people take for granted surrounding themselves as good people. So what about humility and confidence in the team? Well, I think it's important to point this out. First of all, you're not wrong with anything that you said. Humility definitely isn't important component that we all have to show that we have. There's no doubt about that.

And the absence of it can lead to your downfall when you think you're bigger than what you are because nothing annoys people more. I mean, particularly in a world of business because they have the metrics, they have the expertise, they have the data. So in the expertise, they have the data. So in their eyes, they definitively feel they definitively know exactly what you are.

And if it doesn't coincide, your belief in you doesn't coincide with their belief in you. And if they're belief in you, it's significantly less than you look like a fool pulling their eyes. So that's important to point out. But I think that over time, certainly when there's an abscessant humility and that can lead to our downfall, I think the thing that needs to be prioritized and focused on is the hazard of not mastering the business

you chose to be in. You know, when I went to the negotiating table, just a few years ago, and everybody was talking about this huge contract that I got from the negotiating table, just a few years ago, and everybody was talking about this huge contract that I got from the SPN, where I deserved credit for it, it was the fact that I learned in my business, I didn't go in there with emotion. I didn't go in there thinking about people's cream in my name in the streets or being on billboards.

I went in there with their definition of what makes or what qualifies as success. What were my ratings? What's the revenue that I brought in? Now, obviously, they hold those things close to the vessel. Specific numbers you don't always have as it pertains to revenue generated. But you certainly have ratings every day. And you can certainly decipher What kind of money you're bringing in to my ballpark figure so when I went to the

Community Table here's what mastering my business did for me Nothing was personal I wanted what I wanted Whatever they didn't want to give you didn't want to give me whatever Argument me had it was based on the data, it was based on the intel, it was based on me defining what a word should be based on nothing but numbers, not emotion. And as a result, I got to depersonalize everything.

It wasn't racism, hold me back. It wasn't prejudice. It wasn't a particular boss that didn't like me or whatever the case maybe. No, this was their definition of the analytical data. They had gathered first is my definition of it.

Let's talk. Let's have that discussion. And as a result of it, there was no bitterness, there was no hostility, there was no anything. This is what I believe I'm worth. This is what I believe I deserve. This is what you believe I deserve. Let's have this conversation and see where this takes us.

And so from the moment that that transpired, it taught me a very, very valuable lesson. When you're focused on your business, there's so much weight that customarily is on all of our shoulders that just goes away. The personal, the perception of things, the insinuations,

wondering about what's personal and what's business, wondering about what the next person is making compared to you. Like, now, it's the year 2023. I'm interested to tell what I'm the number one talent at ESPN. I am not paid like the number one talent at ESPN. Some there are others that are getting paid more than me, okay?

I'm not bitter. I'm not upset. I'm not paid. Yes. Do I think I deserve more? Yes. Am I coming for more in yes. Do I think I deserve more? Yes. Am I coming for more in the event that I end up saying it in slash form of this thing?

Yes, but there is no animosity because the people that they brought on board that are getting paid are worth every penny. They're great at what they do. They bring revenue to the table. They assist in the product flourishing. There's no intimacy, there's no bitterness. There's no, oh, I deserve it because they got it.

It's none of that. It's that it was my turn when I got my deal. It was their turn years later when they got there to you. And then my turn will come around again and those things could be revisited. Because I know that what I'm gonna to the table with is what my worth is, at least in a ballpark way.

And when you do that, because you've mastered your business, suddenly you deperson a lot of stuff. And it's easier to be humble at that particular moment in time because you're not worried about others trying to humble you. Therefore, getting your backup and motivating yourself to stick out your chest and blow me about who you are and what's your worth and where you stand and what your cashier and staff is. You ain't worried about none of that anymore

because you have the facts and the facts and the numbers support your belief in you. You don't have to do that. And everybody starts speaking the same language and then you're unified in terms of what the agenda is all about and then we're just talking business. And that's okay. I love that. You know what? So many people aren't you have to be in broadcasting. So many people waste energy worrying about what other people are doing or what other people are getting. They do it on social, they do it in business, they do it in entrepreneurship. Like it's just the people that I know that are most successful, you guys. Athletes, business people, entrepreneurs, entertainment folks, they, they, they know they have a finite amount of energy and focus. And every time they deploy some to some other human being, they know

they're reducing it on their craft and what they can create and what they can do. Don't wait for your energy, Hayton, Worian, focusing on contemplating what someone else is getting or doing. Just go get yours on your. I will. I will. I will. And just component if you don't mind. It's very, very important to say to your audience out there. When you are a black person, it's very difficult to do at times because you do feel there is an inequity being exercised. And it's very difficult not to pay attention to that. My advice is, it's even more important when you're black

to focus in on mastering your business, the business of you because we're more apt to personalize it. We're more apt to see an ad in state as he gets in this and I'm not. I wonder what that's about. We're more apt to do that. But far more often than not, we don't have the data act up our belief in ourselves. And so we lean on what someone else is getting compared to what we're not getting because we need some form of justification. Whereas if we master that business

like we just finished talking about, then we don't have to worry about that. Because now onto the table, with numbers that are undeniable, when I say first take has been a 1, 4, 11 years old, I'm not lying, that that is it, it's a fact. So I'm not worried about, oh my goodness, inequities, and this is not fair and all of this is whatever.

I have the numbers that say I kind of deserve to be treated fairly. So let's talk about that. This is what my definition of fitness was yours. And that's what I'm bringing anybody else up. And that's what I'm bringing anybody else up. You I've always wanted to ask you this. That topic comes up a lot on your show. And it always the camera always turns to you. So if there's a tall race. Yes. And the camera ends up coming to you.

And I watch you some mornings. And I've always wanted to ask you. And I know you I think I know what you're going to say, but I really would I really want to know the answer to this. Do you ever feel of an odd pressure? I know you said earlier, Hey, I just this is what I think with you like it or not. That's what I think. But do you ever because I know you get feedback pro and con, right? Like I'm sometimes hey, why didn't you stand up for American more?

Why didn't you look more right or you're being hard on Kyrie Irving? Why are you so hard on him and you're up for American more? Why didn't you look for it? Or right? Or you're being hard on Kyrie Irving. Why are you so hard on him and you're easier on Aaron Rodgers? Yeah. And the other side of it is, you know, you get other guys going, ah gosh, here he goes again. We're going to have to talk about there's not enough black NFL football coach. You know the deal, right?

I didn't know what's that. Does it? Do you ever, does that weigh on? Does it, does it, I even watch you just breathe out loud when I asked you, right? Like I sometimes I feel for you like this man's got to say what he believes and one thing's not strong enough or it's too strong over there and and that's just how is that how's that impact you? That frustration is very real. I'd be a phony and a lie if I denied it. I'm kind of not absolutely true. that I'm kind of not absolutely true. But here's what's exhausting.

It's not white people that have me exhausted is black people. Because you have unfortunately people in my community that you can agree with each other 99% of the time. And it's incredibly unfortunate. And I know of no other race of people who do that to each other 99% of the time. And it's incredibly unfortunate. And I know of no other race of people who do that to each other. And it really, really is unfortunate

that the worst opinions and what have you is not something that can be embraced more without people trying to character assassinate you. That's our community, that's our issue. That's what we have to do. And there are a lot of historians and educators who are older, far more knowledgeable about than I am to speak to that, culturally, in the next word way. Having said all of that, I'm still not backing up. And the reason I'm not backing up is because

as somebody who's on live television a minimum of 10 hours a week, I do feel an inherent obligation to make sure that the voices emanating from my community are heard. I feel no obligation to agree. I just feel an obligation to give a voice to agree, I just feel an obligation to give a voice to the voiceless, to make sure that there are people out there who don't look like me and come from my community, that they identify with what is being said from my community. So you at least understand where folks are coming from. Then you can formulate whatever opinion you feel the need to formulate. That's where I come in. Because for me, I don't care. I love my people.

I'm a proud black man. And I say it often. I'm not just a black man. I'm a brother. I'm a brother to brothers and sisters in the black community. That's who I am and I ain't changing. But that does not mean that I have to agree with you.

I'm youngest of six. Do you think I agree with my brothers and sisters all the time? I'm the youngest child of Janet and Ashley Swift. Do you think I agree with them all the time? No, I did not. We started off the Senate. You talking about how I disagree with my father? And some of the friction at that course, of course, is inevitable.

So for us to act like we have to march locks that put tooth and nail every single tooth is utterly ridiculous. But there is an obligation feel to make sure that the voices emanate from your community that are relatively squashed, elevate, and stature, and impact because their voices heard through you. Even while I'm disagreeing. It's okay because I'm not white. And what I say to white

America all the time, and there's no shade on this whatsoever. White folks go to work today every day with a job to do. Black folks come with a responsibility. If Ed is doing his podcasts, chances are you're gonna have white folks throughout America and the world listening to him, they like it or they dislike it. They don't say to you as far as I've never met a white person that is a knowledge, white folks are said to him because you're white, you gotta say this. But black folks do that to black folks all the time. Trayvon Martin was not a sports issue. I have to talk about Trayv time. Trademark Martin was not a sports issue. I have to talk about Trademark Martin.

George Floyd was not a sports issue. I have to talk about George Floyd, okay? And Philano Castillo and others, I have to talk about these things. Because the black community is like, what you gonna do? What you gonna say? You can't sit up there with that black woman. Be quiet. You gotta say it.

And not only does the black community tell you you gotta say something, they try to put your shit set. And so you have to fight all of that while doing your job, while having your heightened sensitivities, while knowing there's different communities out there, who do they differently than the community just pressure you to say what they want you to say. And all of this is in real time, on live television, no striving second delay, no take delay is literally live.

What you see is what you get. That's my life. Wow. I wanted to ask you that for 10 years and I appreciate you being so, actually makes me. I don't think about what I don't think about, right? Because I don't have that issue. No, there's never, never know, there's never something to say.

Hey, man, you need to stand up for, you know, you're going to say it our way. That never happened before. And I, and the pressure or the thought of that running through my head while I'm still trying to articulate a thought. Yes. And this is carrying that with you every single day is on every issue. Yeah, on every single issue. It's race, it's domestic violence,

it's police brutality, it's immigration, it's everything because it's people differently. The white community often use this phrase when white folks get to call black folks get to the moon, it's always worse for us. So because you have a community out there, a minority community that is the black community, that recognizes and lives with that reality every day,

it compounds the level of pressure because everything is brought back to race because of how it affects one ethnic group compared to another. And all of this I have to deal with a lot. And let me be very, very clear, Ed. I'm talking to you right now. It's a pleasure to meet you and talk to you.

My brother, Hollywood stars, politicians, professional athletes, fortune 500 executives, all of these people text me while I'm on the air in the mirror of the segment, trying to tell me what position I should take and why. This happens every, why do you think you'll see me at times looking down on sex and or whatever, literally doing the same while I'm listening to the debate now, while I'm sexy or whatever. Literally doing the same. While I'm listening to the debate now, while I'm listening to the counterpoint, while I'm going through all of these things,

or when I subject the tease, and we go to commercial and we come back, and you come back and you see me down, because I saw the subject be a tease, and it texted me telling me their position, and what my position should be, and why? It's from 10 to 2 Wall Street to Capitol Hill. But as journalists at heart, I can never reveal who those people are,

and know what I would never do that. But that is my life every week that. Every week. And I mean every week that, every, and I mean every week that. And even for the point that when I go on vacation, I've had those type of people, but it held on you. You can't be at a vacation in time like this. You gotta get back on the egg. Literally.

This has been my life for the better part of the last decade. My gosh. I didn't, I knew there was a burn by no idea was that big. I do see you looking down at your phone often. And I have frankly figured thought someone's blowing him up right now telling him what, what point needs to be made here. Yes. Thank you for holding this aside. Hold it. Let me see. Is it? I've asked a lot of people this that win.

Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Yes. Um, I got to tell you, first of all, I'm blessed. But contrary to what people believe is not just because of the money, because the money that I'm making is recent. But in all ways, the case, I was in this business 15 plus years before I got paid. Let's make sure we're clear about that.

You can talk about me making seven figures, but it's six figures after Uncle Sam gets a hold of it a little less you up there. Okay, so let's be very clear about that. That's number one. But I'm blessed because these professional athletes that I cover, he marvel at, they're focused on determination and commitment to excellence, et cetera.

These coaches, these executives, the level of intellect that they have, how enlightened they, their commitment to contributing to the world being a better place. League officials, I know Adam Silver the commissioner, he's a good man.

He's a good man. David Stern, his predecessor, God rest his soul, was at a quiet taste, but someone I grew to love. You know, collective bargaining. Why would I know anything about that? Because it was taught to me by a former executive director of the plays association,

along with forensic accountants. That's how I became the master of this stuff. To have the connections. The Peahley were just, this people of Hollywood was the Denzel Washington's, the Jamie Foxx, the Chris Rocks of the world. And so many, and so, you know, the hip hop game, Jay Z, and Snoop Dogg,

and run DMC, Method Man, and all these folks that you run across, Nellie, and others. There's so many politicians, that you run across, Natalie and others. There's so many politicians, vaccine waters, and so many various others, you know, the pundits from Sean Hannity, the Don Lemon, to Mark Levin, and all to Joy Reid,

that the professors like Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, Mark Lamont-El, and various others for colleagues of mine. Like Michael Wilbeth and The Watches to Cold, that's now the ESPN Tony Cornheiser and the late great Ralph Wiley and others. I have been so incredibly blessed to be touched. Every single one of those individuals that I've mentioned, they're brilliant at what they do and it is nothing compared to their humanity. Nothing.

These people are some special, special breed of people. And each and every single one of them have blessed me at one point in time or another over the course of my career with their knowledge, their wisdom, and their humanity that when I go on the air, I take you with me. So even if I slip off, and let's say for example, there's something I've done wrong, I might have seen a bit too cruel this particular day.

I might have seen a bit too of a survey. I might have been, you know, it might be even anything. I'm always able to dial it back eventually because of their presence in my life and their contribution to my soul. You know, my past, the A.R. Bernard of Christian Cultural Center, is a very popular past in New York, of the city of Christian Cultural Center in past, the A.R. Bernard of Christian Cultural Center, is a very popular past in New York, of the city, Christian Cultural Center, Brooklyn, New York. He's somebody that I consider to be my spiritual father.

I've loved him daily for years. And he is an individual that always houses words of wisdom and reminds me of the soul he knows I have. And he doesn't have to critique me. He sits up there and says, all he ever says to me, be the steven AI know and loves. And I know exactly what that means. And so because of that,

momentary lapse aside for the most part, because I know where my soul is in the kind of human being that I strive to be and what kind of impact I ultimately try to have? Then it takes me to ESPN and say, you know something, I've been on the page and all this stuff, I'm paid well. You know, I could have better positions,

but I got a pretty good position. And then I think about, I'm talking about, I'm Iger, who is the mastermind of me, maybe the greatest executive I've ever seen in my life. I know these people personally, communicated with them personally. I do all the time.

And to have that in my life, makes me incredibly appreciative of the position that I'm in, which takes offative of the position that I'm in, which takes off some of the weight. It's like Jimmy Contaro, president of ESPN, we had this mandate, which I completely supported way, he talked about, you know, we got a V-A-Way from the political because people come to us for support

and we're doing too much politics, it's what he did company mandate years ago, when he first arrived and I supported him because we got to get the audience and we're doing too much politics. This is what he did company mandate years ago when he first arrived. And I supported him because we got to get the audience what they're looking for. And then when the whole social justice movement came about and explained it, so many people had stuff to say and people want to go on these different shows and all of this other stuff. Jimmy Pintaro said, you can go, you can do it. It's a first shoot.

I trust you because I know that you're going to see the big picture and that you're not going to intentionally sigh what's sensitive to us just because you want to speak. And so what I'm saying is when you have a boss that says something like that to you, that ain't just a job anymore. It's a responsibility but one that you embrace because you know they place face to you. And when they place face to you, and when people place faith in you, you notice by virtue of what you're doing with your podcast, when people place faith in you, you feel an inherent obligation because of your own identity to deliver upon their expectations, because they

didn't have to trust you, but they did. And that is what I feel. Yeah, you know, I've always respected you. I just want to tell you this. I know a lot of people feel this way. We just got a couple more minutes here, everybody, but I got a couple of really cool things to ask in the last, but you know, I really like you. I really like you. You're a special man.

You're a special man. Like, there's a, you see someone on TV, you see one dimension of them. And when you get a blessing to have an hour with them, you see someone like you, the multiple dimensions of somebody. And there's so much depth to you. It's not a surprise that you're where you are. And I want to ask you about that a couple last things. What is the separator? It's just true. I really, really admire you. I've always admired and respected you, but I really like you.

What is the separator of the, so there's these levels in life. There's there's everybody. Then there's like these all star type players. Then there's the Hall of Famers. And then there's like the goat level. And in your career, you're now getting to that conversation arguably of the goat level, right? I've got some one of my best friends is Jim Roma. I consider him. He's a good man. Yeah, he's such a man. Jim's been on. We love him to, and he's goat level. But now you're in that conversation like the LeBron Jordan, you know, the conversation and, and, um, you got the Brady's. You got the Denzel's.

You got the Igers. You got the, the cobies. You got the, or the M.J.s. You got that level. What is, what do you, is there a through line with them to you that there's a separator in them? Is there something about them? Is it some spirit thing in them?

Is it a energy vibration? Is it a work ethic? Is it a desire? What is it? It's two things. It's an aura. And it is their humanity. Their humanity propels them to different heights. It is their humanity.

Their humanity propels them to different heights because whatever they're aspiring to achieve is never just them. It's always for something more. I can tell you right now that when I am in the presence of Bob Iger, this man heads Disney. I can go to Iger and ask for something. Probably wouldn't happen most times, sometimes it might. I ask him for nothing. I'm honored to be in this presence.

I know I'm in the presence of greatness. It's when this may walk into a room. It's something different. As an executive, if you watch other executives in this presence, they're in the presence of greatness. They know this even though they're great because that's the kind of impact he has. When I'm on a phone with Michael Jordan, I know I'm talking to greatness. Now he's a normal dude

and we have the kind of relationship where we can communicate on a normal level, but make no mistake. I know I'm talking to Michael Jordan. I know who I'm talking to. You say I'm saying I know who he is and what he is when he walks into a room. And again, people look at him for example and they see the struggles with his franchise. Michael Jordan's struggle with his franchises and because of basketball. Michael Jordan's struggles with his franchises because he's Michael Jordan. And because he's achieved so much, there's so many dots and arrows aimed at his direction. He has the Jordan brand. And that's something that consistently has to be protected.

It's something that he has to handle with all the time. Who do you trust? Who do you confide in? Who do you think about? Who do you want to get in the circle? He has to think about things. The average person does not have to think about. Bob Eiger, on the other hand,

is somebody that has led Disney over 15, 16 years retired and then had to come back to save it. Okay, and make no mistake about it, I have no doubt. With or without me, he is going to do it because he's back phenomenal. Why? Because everything that Disney epitomizes and represents the betterment of our society, he has to do it. Because he's been associated with the company since the

seven of each. The man is just that phenomenal. And so when you look at it from that perspective, and you think about, it's not just about him. It's about the great and good and the great of whole and sustained excellence. No fly by night fly, no pain. I'm successful today, but I'm back to ground zero tomorrow. No constant process of elevation. When you're around people like that, you can't help but be continuously affected. You have no choice because to do otherwise makes you feel like you're lesser. It makes you feel like you're lesser of a performer, and it makes you feel like you're lesser of a humanitarian because chances are,

the reason you ain't successful is because you are around them and you use that as an opportunity to think about yourself. Instead of thinking about what you could take from them to help others every bit as much as they do. And that is what it's all about. That's what an extraordinary conversation this is. My gosh, I want to go, I just want to say this. I said, what's the separator? He said, aura and humanity. Just process that. You know how few people would answer the question that way. And in my experience, that's exactly right. And that aura is

confidence. Is there work ethic? Is there achievement? Is there frequency of, you know, caring about other people? It is their humans exactly. When you met, I'm sure, I don't know, you probably met 44. You met a broker, Clinton or George W. Bush, all these guys, man, there's an aura about them. And there's a humanity to them as well, whatever you believe politically, there's a humanity to them. It's exactly the right answer. Well, if you look at it, that's the problem that we're having now. We're questioning whether there's the humanity from folks from Capitol Hill. But you know what, but you know what, what we haven't done enough of us, what haven't done this, look at today's day.

Look at the black or the absence of humanity because everybody's only concerned about their side, right? We have a rewinded clock and say, you know what? We kind of owe Bill Clinton an apology. We kind of owe George W. Bush an apology. We kind of owe George W. Bush an apology. We kind of owe our goal in apology. We kind of owe Barack Obama an apology because all four people that I mentioned, of course, there were others who proceeded them as well. But all four individuals that I mentioned, regardless of what you thought about their politics,

at the end of the day, you can look at all of them and genuinely say, they were doing what they thought was best for the country. I'm talking about in terms of how they conducted themselves. And I'm talking about this. I'm talking strictly how you conduct yourself. I don't need to act this way because that's a reflection on other people. Yet, it made mistakes and stuff like that.

But I'm just talking about not a total disregard for decorum and decency and communicating amongst yourselves because you want to send a message to the American people that this is how we should be acting with one another as human beings. That's the thing. That's the thing. You're so right.

Bill Clinton at this great saying that was like, listen, the debate should be about who's right or wrong, not who's good or bad, you know, or horrible. And it's just become your evil. I'm good. You're evil and back and forth. It's question because we're over on time. So last thing, by the way, I've enjoyed this thoroughly and I want to thank you for it. And I want everybody to get straight shooter. Let me tell you something. The first, if we had more time, it would have gone into this. This first chapter about his father and his mother's passing. And by the way, your mother's immensely proud of you, brother.

And even today, I bet she'd be really proud of this conversation. It's a little bit different one than the ones you have on all these other shows. Like, I don't need to tell you, but man, to have a son that's just achieved what you've achieved and contributes what you contribute. And to say some of the things you said today, man and your mother's love and work and wisdom shines through you. And it does in this book as well, everybody. So I want you to go get straight shooter by Stephen A Smith. He's already sold a whole bunch of them, but let's add to the pile of them.

Last thing, fun question. Just because I everyone knew you're coming, unlike you better ask them about this. So we're going to go light to finish. LeBron versus MJ, the goat conversation. I think you and I come out on the same side here, but I want to, I want this, this, this will be the clip ironically that people talk about because it'll be at the end. Who's the goat? And if it is Michael Jordan, is there anything LeBron could do the next five years that would change your opinion about it? If it is, it is Michael Jordan. And there's nothing, Michael Jordan,

there's nothing LeBron James can do in my eyes. Because what I respect the hell out of LeBron James, he's an incredible ambassador for the game. He's an incredible role model. He's somebody that I admire respect and acknowledge that we will miss him when he is gone. He is something special. But the reality is when I think about Michael Jordan, I think about a same time champion who's never defeated in the championship series. Never allowed a championship

series to go seven games. Was an MVP in every single one of those championships. I was 10 top scoring champion. He's a nine-time all NBA defensive team member. Okay. With multiple league MVP, the list delicious goes on and on. And so when I think about Michael Jordan from that standpoint, I also never encountered a situation where there was an NBA finalist loss I could blame on him, could blame the loss to the Dallas Mavericks on LeBron James.

That never happened to Michael Jordan. I can look at LeBron early in his career and say he's scared to go to the freezer along with the Calvary Malsk. I can never say that about Michael Jeffrey Jordan. And so when I think about those things and I think about the physicality of the game, I'm still we were living in, the role to prosperity that had to be traveled then compared to what it is now in terms of the absolute obvious as a quality that was allowed, that's disallowed in today's NBA game. I take all of those things in the considerations to jump to the conclusion

that I have jumped to. If we're talking resumes, is Karim Abdujibar or Bill Russell 11 titles of 13 years Karim Abdujibar 19 time All Star 6 time champion 6 time MVP, you know all of these different things the only Individual in the history of the sport with one signature unstoppable move that was never duplicated or emulated in any way But you can debate that I still say the versatility of LeBron James Along with his four championships and his ten trips to the NBA finals says enough with his four championships and his 10 trips to the NBA finals says enough that he's going to mount Rushmore basketball as one of the top two players in the history of basketball, but it doesn't make him Michael Jordan, not my eyes, and it never will.

That's so good. I've loved this today, and what I'm excited about for you is that when you're done with your career, they'll be, you're on the Mount Rushmore and they'll be a debate too. Some of the basketballs and so and so against Steven against Stephen A Smith and you're already in that conversation. You're such a young man. So congratulations on all your success. Congratulations on the book and I look forward to building a friendship with you brother because today is one.

You got one. You got one my brother. I really, really enjoyed this looking forward to coming back on in the future. Thank you so much for giving me time. This was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed the thanks. All right, everybody, share the show. God bless all of you. Max out your life.

This is The End My Let's Show.