THE ED MYLETT SHOW - The Science of Amazing Friendships w/ Dr. Marisa Franco

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

This week is a fascinating show about FRIENDSHIP.This one is so so IMPORTANT.I’ll be HONEST with you…one of the people this week’s show may HELP the most is me!As I’ve mentioned many times before, although I put myself out there all the time, deep inside, I’m still very much an INTROVERT.  I’ve always felt I could do better in smoothing out the AWKWARD MOMENTS, and I feel sometimes when connecting with people.  I know a lot of you are the same way.  That’s why I’m fascinated by DR. MARISA FRANCO, who has spent years studying FRIENDSHIP in incredible detail.There’s so much good stuff to unpack this week…FRIENDSHIPS TAKE WORK, and even people who make friends easily can make regrettable mistakes.  No matter who you are, listen to what Dr. Franco has to say about CHARACTERISTICS of what makes a great friendship, then ask yourself how many of those boxes you check.If you don’t check enough of them, you may find people you thought were your friends starting to GHOST YOU, which Dr. Franco also gets into.We’re also going to talk about the PHYSICAL NEED FOR FRIENDS as well.  You may not realize it, but friendship has a lot more benefits than simply improving your EMOTIONAL health.  This is part of Dr. Franco’s larger overall look at the science of friendships and how they affect your work, sense of self, and many other parts of who you are.Want to know how to make friends as an ADULT?How to be friends with people you DISAGREE with?Or how SELF-LOVE affects friendships?And one of my favorite parts of this week’s show…How can you deal with “value-based” friends versus adding authentic friendships to your life?  My FRIENDLY ADVICE to you this week is to pay close attention to Dr. Franco’s wisdom on a subject that we sometimes take for granted.And let me leave you with this… PROVERBS 27 says, in part, “Do not forsake your friend and the friend of your father, and do not go to your brother's house when disaster strikes you-- better a neighbor nearby than a brother far away.”

This is the Ed Milach Show. Alright, welcome back to the show everybody. Today is all about friends. We're going to talk about how to be a better friend, why friendships matter so deeply. And I have to tell you this woman's work is so fascinating to me because it's a little bit of a contrarian viewpoint yet when you hear the things she talks about, I think they're going to resonate with you right away that they're true. And any of

you that want to be a better friend, want more friends, want deeper friendships, just better relationships in general, I have the woman here that's going to help you with it. My guest today is Dr. Marissa Franco. She is currently a New York Times best selling author of the new book called Platonic, How the Science of Attachment can help you make and keep friends. She's also got a PhD in counseling psychology. She's been an expert on, you know, different programs including Good Morning America. And now on the Ed Mylet show. So Dr. Franco, great to have you here. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. Well, you should be. You just became a New York Times best

selling author. Yes. Yes. The rest of your life when you walk in a room, it's no longer Dr. Marissa Franco, it's New York Times best selling author, Dr. Marissa Franco. And I think you're the best selling author right now because of your work.

I want to really get into this really quickly because when I first started to listen to you, I'd go on all the way down all the different talks you've given and read the book and I'm thinking, do I agree? Do I agree with everything she's saying? And I found myself agreeing with you more and more and more. One of the things you talk about is how in our culture right now, we really almost over-emphasize romantic love relationships.

And we sort of minimize platonic love relationships, almost as if they should be or must be secondary. So talk about the history of that because that fascinated me. And why is it that you think it's that way? And is that actually true? Yeah. So in the past that wasn't always this way, we got married, not for love, but for resources, in like the early 1800s and before. And so love wasn't a part of marriage. And in fact, people really looked for feelings of romance and how I define romance here is, you know, you're excited about someone, you're thrilled to see them, you yearn for them, you idealize them, there's a deep level of intimacy and compassion.

People found that in their friendships because at that time interactions among people of the same gender were considered a lot more intimate and the genders were considered to be too distinct for people to form these sort of deep connections. And so because of that, people really experienced all types of intimacy in their friendships that we experienced far less today. Like, friends were able to hold hands with each other, share beds, write love letters to each other. That all changed because around 1867, society really changed in the Western world changed how they viewed homophobia. So before then, it was sort of taboo to have same sex love.

But it wasn't taboo to engage in all of these behaviors that weren't actually sexual, like I said, holding hands, sharing a bed, writing love letters, right? But then two psychiatrist, Sigmund Freud, Richard Von Kraft Ebing, they basically wanted to make it even more taboo for same-sex love to happen as people weren't moving into cities, and there's an increase in these same-sex sexual acts. So they sort of created these theories that same-sex sexual love is a disorder that defines someone's entire identity.

So now it wasn't just the sex that was stigmatized. It was the entire gamut of behaviors that could perhaps suggest sexual interests. And so after that, people felt like if I express love to my friends too deeply, I might come off as being in love with them. Yeah, and that's really part of our culture now, isn't it? I mean, I thought about it. I didn't mean to jump in there, but I, I first of all, I didn't know the history. So, and I started to read, and I'm like, actually, it's accurate that a couple centuries ago that most people did not

marry necessarily for love. Some did, but a lot of people married because it was arranged by their families, or they were in the same caste system, or there was a financial reason to do it. And it fascinated me to think that prior to that, because what is natural? I think a lot of people listen to this, would say, I actually am so comfortable loving my friends. It's easier, it feels like it should be that way.

I think when I hear something, I kind of put it through my, do I agree with that life meter? I'm 51 years old, right? And I am so, I'm a unique male in the fact that I tell most of my male friends, hey man, I love you. I feel like I have pretty intimate relationships with my male friends, and that I do tell them I love them.

I tell, I have this thing that I do with my friends often, and you might get a kick out of this where I say, you know what, man, let me tell you about you. And then I pour into them, man, you have special you are, how smart you are, how much I love you. And I can't wait to see these male friends of mine. Yet, I do sense, particularly with men, but I guess it's true with both genders, but I do sense that, yeah, to an extent, and then this is getting a little weird, right?

And that little weird is a cultural change. There isn't anything weird. I don't have any physical attraction, any of my male friends. It's an intimate relationship that's non physical. Yet we've conflated, we've conflated these things now. And I actually wept listening to this story that I'd like you to share with my audience about the letter that you wrote for your friend that you decided not to send her. And why just your something about our conditioning caused you to think that maybe you were stepping too far. And I will agree with this linkage that somehow there's a homophobic tendency link to it that changed in our culture. And I don't even know that necessarily matters for everyone to agree with

the reason, but you should ask yourself whether or not it's accurate. It's a hundred percent accurate. They're getting too close to our friends who might be of the same sex as somehow some taboo thing. So would you talk about that letter? Because it just, I don't think people will forget this. Yeah. So it was for my best friend, Kana, who lives on the other side of the country.

And I was writing her a letter and it said, I feel like you're my soulmate and I've known you many lives before. And I felt shame. I just felt like, I don't know, like I guess I shouldn't be expressing this level of deep love for a friend, that it wasn't okay.

So I ended up taking that letter and putting it in a basket in my table and never giving it to Kana. And I actually saw Kana last week and I was in LA seeing her. And there's this moment where we were leaving each other and we had an amazing weekend together. And I just wanted to sort of pour into her like this was amazing. Like I feel so centered around you. I feel at so much peace around you more than anyone else. And I just wanted to sort of pour into her like, this was amazing. Like, I feel so centered around you. I feel at so much peace around you, more than anyone else. And I just told her, I loved her, but I hesitated to express the great extent through which I love her. She later posted an Instagram post about me, where she identified me as her soulmate.

And it was like easier, I think, for her to express it on Instagram, right? Instead of face-to-face, it was sort of easier for both of us to have some distance because we have this sense, even me, who studied these things and understands how they're wrong, that if we feel too deeply for our friends, it's just not okay. And those are the emotions you should have for a spouse, not a friend. Well, it's mind blowing because it's robbing us of a lot of the juice of our lives. We get close to our friends to an extent.

The other thing you said that's so profound too, is I've found that I do have some friends that are willing to say these loving things through technology, but the closer we get into each other's proximity, now all of a sudden it's getting weirder to be able to be able, it's interesting for me. I don't know that's because I've been in the same romantic relationship for so long

or that I'm just comfortable in this environment for some reason, but I'm extremely expressive with my affection towards my male friends. I just always have been, and I think for some of them it's off-putting at first, but I'm going to give everybody a clue here because this is about how powerful your work is. I actually think it's why so many of my friends are so close to me, is that I am willing to express to them in an unusual way my affection, my emotions for them in a way that maybe no other man has for another man,

especially if they're heterosexual men. And this is also true even for me with my female friends. My expression of love, now I will always qualify it by saying I love you sister. So they sort of know that it's a different type of love out of some sort of respect to my wife. But I do, I do feel like I'm more expressive with my affection for my friends, which is why I have deeper relationships. And you talk about in the book, different, I guess I wouldn't call them tactics or strategies, but sort of six different practices that

we can utilize to enhance the friendships that we have. Maybe you could pick one or two of them right now and share them with us because I still want people to read the book. But what are one or two of those practices? I know them, but I'd like you to share them with the audience. Of course. Yeah.

So one of the big ones I share is initiative because we assume friendship happens organically, that it should just sort of, you know, drop into our lives. We shouldn't have to work at it, right? So different from our script that we have for romantic love. And in fact, this belief is related to being lonely or over time. The problem is we use the script from childhood ed, where in childhood, we had an infrastructure that provided continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability.

So we saw people every day and we had our guard down. For Becky G. Adams, she's a sociologist who argues, these are the ingredients for friendship to happen organically. As adults, we don't have that anymore, right? I mean, we have our workplaces we see people every day, we're often not very vulnerable at work, so you can't rely on the same template you had when you're a kid, now as an adult,

otherwise, according to the research, if you think it happens just based on luck, you're more likely to be lonely five years later. Wow. Wow. I want you to keep going, but I want to jump in here. I feel like also, and tell me if you agree with this, that, well, first off, I think everybody listening to this in their heart right now, want deeper, loving relationships with their

friends. They want it. They want to become closer. And those that are listening that have one or two that are relatively deep, it's one of the greatest blessings of your life. And we will pursue with initiative a romantic relationship. That's acceptable. In fact, there's apps for it. There's apps created so that we can pursue that one romantic relationship, that theory of the one. But there's not really an acceptable social standard that says you should pursue friendships.

In fact, I've had people tell me, hey, little creepy, this person's pursuing me. Like as if somehow the fact this person's looking for a friend, I think to some extent reduces their value in some people's mind. So how do you take initiative, this is really nuanced, isn't it? How do you take initiative in building a deeper friendship or wanting to be a friend with somebody, but you're swimming sort of counter culture. So how do you do it in such a way that you don't come across as,

I guess the word would be desperate. I mean, it's a terrible cultural conditioning we have, but I would imagine if you take the wrong initiative or don't have a nuance to it, it can be conditioned in people's minds as seeming desperate. Yeah. So I think we do have this conception

that it can come off as desperate, but in fact, it typically doesn't, because our brain has this negativity bias where when we predict how we come off, it tends to be inaccurate and a lot more negative than the truth. So just an example of this, these researchers had people interact with strangers and afterwards they asked each person, like, how much do you like the other one? And they found that we have this tendency to underestimate how like to be our by other people. It's called the liking app.

And so even if you think it may come off as weird, most the average American is lonely. And so they actually really want connection. And so you being able to just say something like, it's been so great to talk to you I love to stay connected would you be open to exchange your contact information likely it's going to come off a lot less awkward and a lot more positively than you might assume. Do you feel like and one of the things you talk about in the book is authenticity to

about building those relationships that's one of the six keys talk about in the book is authenticity to about building those relationships. That's one of the six keys. I think sometimes also the initiative part can be post the encounter. And what I mean by that is these are just practices I've had in my life. And it's a odd to me that because we don't do a lot of topics on the show where I go, I have a lot to learn in this area. And it's interesting. I thought, I'm a great friend. And I started thinking about some of the relationships I've had over time, that I've let weaken.

I've let distance come up. I've allowed the gap to increase between us. And I feel like that's because of the lack of initiative I've taken in between our physical meetings, if that makes any sense. In other words, there's not been enough, like, hey, I loved our lunch today. It takes three seconds when you get back home, right?

I loved our lunch today. When can we do it again? I felt so good. I feel so good when I'm around you. Yet you would do that on a date. You'd have a post-initiative followup. I enjoyed our dates so much. I can't wait for us to get together again.

But oftentimes with friends, we don't do those things. We almost take them for granted and allows these gaps to grow. So is that another piece of initiative is sort of just the ongoing, repetitious familiar dialogue of some type, whether it's text, email, or phone call. Yeah, certainly. It's that maintenance, right?

That maintenance that we let fall to the wayside in friendships. And I think part of the problem is our scripts for friendships are so narrow and trivializing, right? It's just people assume it should be easy, people assume it should be good vibes only, people assume they shouldn't have to try, right? And if I think our scripts were different, we would act differently and we would have a lot better friendships, right? Because something I argue in the book is that here we are thinking friendships are inferior. But if we look at how we

behave towards them, that we express less affection. We don't have any formal ceremonies. We spend less time with them. We're less vulnerable with them compared to maybe a spouse, right? If you put in less effort, doesn't it make sense if the friendship isn't inferior? It's not about friendship being a inherently trivial relationship. It's that because we think it's trivial, we tend to sort of treat it that way and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're making me think right there, especially this ceremony part. In some of my richest friendships, we actually do have some ceremonies and those you that have a few friendships, this might be a key. For me, some of my male friends that we have,

we have a ceremony, which is we get together for a guy's golf trip. That's sort of a ceremony or ritual that we have that enhances the friendship, right? Some, I'm talking from a guy's perspective. Many men have like poker night or game night with their buddies. That's a ceremony. It's a tradition. It keeps the friendship going. And I think one of the keys here for everybody listening is, what are your ceremonies and rituals with your friendships?

What are your, we talk all the time about habits and rituals in terms of being productive and successful? What are your habits and rituals with your friendships. What are your, we talk all the time about habits and rituals in terms of being productive and successful. What are your habits and rituals with your friendships and enhancing them and growing them? I'm gonna ask you a hard question. Do you think somebody can be as happy without a romantic relationship in their life? Is if they had multiple, wonderful, platonic relationships?

Or do you still feel that there's a need, I guess that's the word, there's a need for a platonic relationships, or do you still feel that there's a need, I guess, I guess that's the word, there's a need for a platonic relationship, or is that sort of, or excuse me, a romantic relationship? Is that just sort of a false belief system that someone could go through their life without a romantic relationship? And if they had beautiful platonic relationships, they could have a beautiful blissful life, or do you still believe there is a space reserved that's special for the romantic one? So when we look at the data, we find that married people slightly higher than slightly happier than single people, right? But we actually find that single people with larger

social networks are actually happier than the average married person. And so there is evidence that you can live a completely fulfilling life with just friends in your life. In fact, some people might prefer to, for example, not commit to one sexual partner, like have a network of friends and then be able to have different types of sexual partners. That might work better for them. I think our scripts are just so crushing, right, in our society, about what we should do, how we should spend our lives, what we should look for in relationships that it often replaces our ability to understand ourselves, understand our own needs. Well, I think a big one I've found in my life is when that new romantic relationship does tremendous damage to the long-term platonic ones.

Do you know what I mean? When I say that, that I have so many scenarios in my life and there's a lot of people who write around, like, that happened with Sarah, that happened with Jack, where they become so crazy obsessed with this new romantic relationship, that they allow their platonic long-term friendships to suffer tremendously, almost as if they have to pick between one and the other.

This is something for everybody to evaluate right now. I mean, really listen to this piece that she's gonna speak on. I don't think it's a choice between the romantic relationship and the platonic ones. And if your romantic partner is causing you to have to choose, you need to re-evaluate that relationship. Wouldn't you agree? Ed, absolutely. Because in my opinion, to have a healthy romantic relationship, each person needs to have friends. And this is a research-backed opinion. You know, according to the science, when we have arguments with our spouse,

we have a sort of maladaptive release of the stress hormone cortisol. Unless we have close social connection outside of the relationship. Other research finds that when we make a friend, not only are we less depressed, our spouse is also less depressed because there's high rates of what's called concordance between spouses, which means your mental health is very much reflected in your spouse's mental health. So anything that makes them happy makes you happy. And there's also research that women who have particularly close friendships when they go through strife within their romantic relationship, they're more resilient

to that, right? Because if you're only depending on one person, whatever happens in that relationship, if it's going badly, normal ebbs and flows in relationships, it's going to devastate you, and you're going to have fewer resources to heal it. If whatever going is going wrong in your romantic relationship, you have people that can be a sounding word, that can center you, you can re-approach that romantic relationship from a place of centeredness and it's going to help the romantic relationship. So good.

I was just thinking, if you wanna know how profound and valuable, important and beautiful your platonic relationships are with your friends, just think about every breakup you've ever had. What's your first inclination at thought? I gotta talk to my friends. You wanna reconnect with them.

You wanna see them even more. And there's this part of you that when you do it, you're like, I've missed you. I'm so sorry. I've sacrificed parts of our friendship for this room. I just think the most loving, beautiful romantic relationship, ought to not have to cause you to sacrifice

your platonic friendships. And if you're listening to this and they have, I think you need to evaluate that. I mean, you make your own decision about it. Now, let's talk about being a great friend. I like friends who tell me the truth that are really, really straightforward with me. You have a thing in their call, productive anger, and they're correlated, but really not. But what makes, in your mind, a really true, valuable friend? If I want to be one, or I'm looking for one, what are a couple of those characteristics in addition to what we've talked about? Yeah, so there's moments in friendships that I call diagnostic moments. These moments that

disproportionately affect how we view the friendship. So those are really the moments when we're at our highest and at our lowest. So when I'm celebrating, I just got married, I just launched my book, like, are you there to celebrate with me? But also, when I'm devastated, when I, you know, go through this divorce or find that I have a health issue, write or a miscarriage, are you there to support me in those times of need? And it's just so important, you know, to be a good friend, it's not about having to be there every day. It's about having to show up in those really, really critical diagnostic moments

because when we express more strong emotion, it impacts our memory. We're more likely to remember experiences that involve stronger emotion. And so that's why these diagnostic moments are really, really key. Like, you have to show that you're invested and committed in those deep times of need, positive or negative.

Why do you think people ghost their friends? And how do you stop it? You write about it in the book. Why I just want to have you talk about this here today, because it's crushing when someone ghosts you. And it absolutely. Yeah, what's the story with that? Yeah, in friendship, we often don't make this unsaid said, there's there's small problems, there's small issues, we feel like we should

get over it, we don't get over it, we instead withdraw, right? I think a lot of a spear conflict in friendship that, you know, it'll cause problems and it'll cause issues only to realize that what really causes issues is we when we don't bring up those problems. And so it's like a fear of abandonment keeps us from addressing the problem, but inherently we abandon each other by not addressing the problem. So it becomes a sure thing in a guarantee. And so when I talk to Jeff Simpson, he's a researcher on how can we really get people to start working through conflict with their friends, he said, ask them, what did they get from their friends

that they don't get from anyone else in their life? And then they'll realize just how much they have to lose before deciding, you know, again, according to the social, social script that doesn't really matter if this friend isn't my friend anymore. Like, I'll be okay, I have other friends, but sit there and think about what do you really stand to lose with this particular person if you're not able to address this conflict with them? Gosh, I love you always quote studies by the way. And one of the things in the book, thank you for this today. This is so good. This is a topic that's never covered anywhere about how to be a better friend, why it matters. You actually direct now the mental health part I think is pretty obvious to me that hey if you have loving great Platonic friendships probably your mental health is better and you've addressed on you've addressed that and it also affects the mental health of your Romantic partner as well, but you actually take it a leap further. You say it affects physical health

It can even affect your lifespan. So listen to this everybody the richness of your friendships You're submitting has some correlation between how long we live and how healthy we live our friendships do. Yep. Yeah. I mean, the research actually finds that the impact of loneliness on our bodies is akin to the health impacts of smoking 15 cigarettes a day and that meta-analyses, which combine all the existing research that's out there, find that, for example, diet, exercise obviously contribute to our mortality, but social connection contributes to our mortality even more. So it's even more important than diet and exercise for us living a long life. If I just have a zillion questions, so we're going to keep going. So I think this is the most fascinating topic because you said something when we were kids,

I went and spoke at a elementary school recently. And I kind of knew I was going to be interviewing you. So I was just sort of looking at some of the stuff you talk about in the book. And I was watching these children. The ones I was watching were first and second graders. A couple of things. I watched how vulnerable they were with their emotions. Some were mad, some were crying, some were happy, some were joyful.

And I know that we're adults and we wear masks and all that stuff. But the amount of vulnerability amongst these friends bonded them. Number one, the other thing I noticed though, and then we're going somewhere interesting here, was there physical affection for one another? So several of these little beautiful souls were walking out of class holding hands and a couple of them struck me. There was a little Asian boy holding a little black girl's hand and they were walking and it actually affected my heart when I saw it and then there were these two little girls, a little African American, little black girl, African American girl, little white girl

and they were running out to go play to tell their ball together and they were actually holding hands. I watched another boy get knocked down. They were playing some kind of, I think it was like, there wasn't football, but it was a game where they were falling down and I watched another boy get up and I watched a young boy hug this other little boy. This was all very natural and normal for these children. Physical affection for one another, not sexual

affection, physical affection, which is a completely different thing. What about that in our friendships? And this is a big leap for the lot of the dudes, right? But like, like, I'll just tell you guys, if you're a friend of mine, you're a male friend, you're getting hugged when you see me. You're getting hugged. I touch you. I love you. And there's nothing sexual about it whatsoever. And if there was, there'd be nothing wrong with that, but there just isn't in my case. But I watched these children. It wasn't just their vulnerability, their emotions, but actually their physical affection for one another. People want to be touched in life. That's a, that's a sign in life, right? We almost never touch our friends. Do we? I just wonder what your thoughts are on that. You know, I think when you look back into history,

pictures of men on sports teams, laying in each other's arms in the pictures, you see that physical affection, the sheep intimacy, this romantic love in friendships is not radical. It's traditional. It's longer in our history that it's been part of our friendships for us to engage in physical touch, right? It's It's longer in our history that it's been part of our friendships for us to engage in physical touch, right?

It's only very recently in our history that we've cut that off from being a part of our scripts for friendship. See, we have a hyper-sexualized society sometimes in some case, and I think sometimes two things one, when women are affection with one another, they're concerned that people are going to think a particular thing about them, which why they care about that I don't know, but they do. And in man, there's only one place, it's so amazing you just said this. There's one place we're allowed to give ourselves

unlimited physical affection almost, which is in sports. Right, in sports, I'm allowed to hug you, I'm allowed to high five you, I'm allowed to touch you. I can tap you on the butt when we're playing sports. Somehow that's an area we've carved out where physical affection for one of, and what's interesting is it's the most hyper masculine environment in the world, yet you see some of the most physical touching of male friends with one another in that environment.

Isn't that not fascinating? But in our day to day life, people would probably think it would be awkward to do that. I just don't. Maybe it's because I was an athlete that I'm used to doing it. But do you agree? Like you see this in sports all the time. Yeah. You know, Naomi way she has this great book on like men and their friendships and disconnection. And one thing that she finds is that the men who are the most masculine can violate these boundaries of masculinity and connection and intimacy the most because they have this sort of anchor point, right? Nobody's gonna question my sexuality.

I'm like the, you know, the quarterback on the football team, right? And those men that had that anchor were allowed to express this need for deep intimacy and connection that we all have, right? But for anyone who didn't have that anchor, they really had to stay within the lines. Yeah.

And the sad part about that is that they're worried about what their sexuality looks like in the first place anyway, right? And there's a underlying thing there that's just terrible. What about if I'm someone listening to this? I go, you know, I've had good friendships in my life, but like Ed said earlier, my best girlfriend just got married a couple years ago, and she's just spending more time. She's had, you know, some of this is just natural things. She's had children now. Maybe I haven't. And so she's got more time time. She's had, you know, some of this is just natural things. She's had children now, maybe I haven't. And so she's got more time there.

And I'm finding myself, you know, on a Friday night, wanting to go enjoy the company of other people, but I'm struggling to find those people. What would you say to somebody who's listening to this goes, I'd like to cultivate and find some more friendships. I know it's a broad question, but I'm sure, in your case, because you're the best in the world unless you probably have a couple suggestions. Thank you Ed. I do. I do. The first is to

join a community that's repeated over time. So don't go to that networking event, go to that professional development group, right? Go to the book club, go to the hiking group, go to the running group, go to the improv club, because when you see people repeatedly, you capitalize on something called the Mir exposure effect. Our unconscious tendency to like people when they are simply familiar to us. These researchers planted women into a psychology lecture, and they found that at the end of some semester,

students in the lecture reported liking the woman who showed up to the most classes, 20% more than the one who didn't show up to any, even though they didn't remember any of these women, right? And so when you join something repeated, that's something to keep in mind. First of all, your first meeting is probably going to be awkward. It's uncomfortable. New York exposure effect has not set in. That's that's that's not a sign that you shouldn't be engaging anymore. Commit for two to three months once you find a club that you like before giving up on forming connections there. That's a great flip and suggestion.

It's also people that probably have a shared or common interest with you, right? Exactly. Have a proper, a proper, a clever to think about you. What about that? So I want to go somewhere kind of difficult. Do you think it's more difficult to build friendships with people who you just disagree with on certain things? I'm not talking about values.

I think you have to have shared values, right? But I'm a liberal, you're a conservative, right? Whatever, my viewpoint on religion, I'm a Christian, you're an agnostic or atheist, or do you see to me, my dad was my best friend and he passed away a little while ago and we had share values, shared obviously shared experience, but we disagreed on these things and it made it such a rich friendship. In other words, it wasn't an echo chamber for me, like most of my other friends,

we mainly hang around people who go, you're right, you're right, yeah, and we sort of, I want a few of my friends. I think it's one of the richest things in life yet. I think culturally right now, are you red or blue, right? Are you, and I think even the friendships we have, aren't as rich as they could be, it's not the full mosaic of life.

I want that person who challenges my thinking. That's just me personally, right? Don't you feel like you ought to have at least a couple of friends in there where you're like, I love you, you crazy MF, you're out of your mind on Trump, you're out of your mind on Biden, like whatever it is or wherever you stand. Like, and I really think this is a difficult this is a difficult place to go in friendships,

but everybody evaluating this, everyone just agree with you. It wouldn't be cool to have someone, you love them. They're not bad because they disagree with you. They have a different perspective, but you share a value system. What do you think about that? I think it really depends on the person.

You know, I can just share an experience that I had, for example, that I talk about in the book that me and one of my friends were both Black White by racial and I grew up in New York. So I had never experienced racism before, at least not blatantly. He grew up in Germany. So he had, right. I mean, both started to experience pretty blatant racism. And I, it really affected me. It really, really impacted me. I was not used to this. I did not have any resilience to it. It affected him a lot less. And so he was sort of able to stay in his position

and get to the top of position. He's now a tenured professor there, right? Because that was something he could live in that difference. He could live in that, in those feelings of disconnection with people based on race, right? But I couldn't. And that's because we have different histories and different capacities. And so Ed, when you say it's really rich for me, right? Your experience is great.

And your capacity is great. And I totally think we need people that are working across these differences and bridging these divides. But for other people, their experience, when they talk to someone who has different values in them, they're body reacts very differently. Right? They have very different reactions. And there's this book called What Happened to You that talks about the ability to regulate as a privilege. It's a sign that you've had healthy relationships in the past, rather than, you know, really traumatic relationships, or you've had the opportunity to really work through that trauma. And if these people that are constantly getting triggered

by people's differences of opinions, I think if we encourage them to stay in those relationships, what we might find is they're gonna form really gross relationships where they don't actually feel close to people. So I think it really depends on people's capacity and you discerning for yourself. Like, is this a positive experience for me?

Is this enriching experience for me? Or is it just too much for me right now in this moment? And I'm gonna make a decision that kind of reflects where my own capacity is at. Yeah, where we agree is on a values part. So that's why I phrased the question by the way I did. That's why I asked it.

Because I don't think you should, I don't think anybody should, I don't think there's probably any point in your life. We're surrounding yourself with people who have different value systems than you. But for me, for somebody who sees God differently than me, but believes in God, to me that's not a difference of value system, that's a difference of opinion.

And I think my life is enriched by, I don't think it doesn't even do with my conditioning necessarily that I've had negative and positive relationships in my life. I'm not suggesting that people should have people in their lives that don't share their values. In fact, I think life's too short to have people around you don't share your values. But I do want to have people around me that stretch me, that cause me to think, that cause me to grow, that cause me

to change my perspective on those things. And the funny thing about that relationship that I had with my dad is post his passing. I'm starting to agree with him more on things. And so his lack of proximity to me has caused me to really reflect. And sometimes that's healthy too. That when you do have somebody in your life and maybe there's been a lack of proximity, our appreciation and affection for them can grow in their absence. And if you have somebody in your life that you loved, that you were very close to, and you miss them, maybe today's show is a catalyst to get you to reach out to them and say, I miss you. I love you. Can we get together again? How are you? I think

you'd be shocked at how great they feel to hear from you. And I only can tell you this because everybody listening, I wish I could do that with my dad. I can wish, I wish I could come and go, give me that crazy stuff you told me about taxes again. Give me that stuff again. I would love to hear that from my dad again. And I don't have the opportunity too. And so for those of you that are listening that have had some precious human being in your life,

it's maybe just become a little bit more distant from you. Use today's show as a real catalyst and excuse if you need it to reach out to them. So I was just listening to the show on Friends and it made me think of you and reach out to them again. I hope that be a beautiful experience for all of you. What is one thing, Dr. Franco, I could do or anybody could do to be a better friend? I'm that's pretty broad question, but what is something I could do that makes me a better friend? Here is my tip. I

assume people like you, according to the research, when people are told to make this assumption, it makes them friendlier, warmer, more open, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. When we fear that others will reject us, we get closed up, we get withdrawn, we are engaged in our egocentric bias more, which is our tendency to think a lot more about how people impact us than how we impact them. Right? And it's very hard to be a good friend when we constantly think people are rejecting us because we get into this self-protection mode that is antithetical to pro-relationship

mode. If I'm in self-protection mode, I'm not initiating. I'm not vulnerable. I'm not expressing affection towards you. If I am in pro-relationship mode, I am vulnerable. I'm expressing affection. I am initiating with you. But in order to be in this pro-relationship mode, we need to feel safe enough, right? And part of the ways in which we feel safe so we can facilitate all these positive behaviors that nurture friendship, is we assume that people like us and receive us positively because then I'll reach out, then I'll express that affection, then I'll express that generosity towards you. Man, this is interesting. You're making me think a lot, about a lot of things.

That's why I do the show. I want people to be thinking. I want them to be challenged. I want them to learn things and have insights and take tools the away that they can use. One of the things I'm grateful for today is so many tools you've shared already. But it makes me think about different aspects of my life and in people's lives. So how do you, I don't know if you've ever been asked this before, and I've never asked anybody this before. How do you nuance this need desire for these relationships with self-reliance and that nuance between giving my power to other people in terms of my own happiness?

In other words, do I not have to find ways to be happy within myself? You made a great point of assume people like me. What about assume I like me? I love me. And how important is that to not predicate my self-worth on the affection of any other person, even though I understand the value of having these friendships?

I imagine that's a really interesting space to navigate, right? We want these friendships because they enrich our lives and they cause us to be happier and live longer, yet at the same time, am I not a more valuable friend if I love myself in the absence of that? I think you know what I'm asking you. I do, Ed, and I think it's hard to separate these two things.

It is. Because the people that love themselves have been loved by other people and have internalized that so it's become part of themselves. There's a theory on unself esteem called the socio-metric theory of self esteem, which is that our self esteem is a gauge for how other people feel about us that we've internalized,

even more so than it's a sense of, I feel positively about me. And so there is this sort of bi-directional relationship. I assume people like me, I like me, I continue to assume people like me. And so there is this sort of bi-directional relationship. I assume people like me, I like me, I continue to assume people like me. The problem that I think you're getting at Ed I wanted to address with research on something called self-verification theory. And that's the theory that finds that we look for people that confirm our sense of ourselves. So people with low self-esteem preferred to interact with people that see them negatively than someone that sees them positively

Not because they don't want love not because they don't want regard But because when someone sees them positively, they don't believe it They think it's manipulation because it doesn't match their felt sense of themselves With the person that sees them negatively they could actually receive that it makes them feel like they're re-houtly. It's coherent, right? It's person that loves them. It's, they're triggering this identity crisis. You perceive me so positively. I don't see myself in that.

It's like imposter syndrome that comes up all of this baggage, right? And so that is the issue, I think, even though other people loving us is how we come to love ourselves. If we don't love ourselves, can people love us? Sometimes we just won't even notice. Man, that's good. You got me on that. I'm really thinking about that one. That's a really unique space to navigate. I asked some friends preparing to interview you today. I said, how do you think you get more friends? And in the personal development space, the business space, I'm going to tell you what the answer is. And I don't agree with it.

Especially after reading some of your work, you're making me think. But the answer is, I'll bring them value, bring them value, law of reciprocity. Hey, I can do this for you. You know, if I do this for you, you'll like me and then we'll become friends. And I feel like that's totally different than being authentic and vulnerable, which is what you recommend in the book. I feel like the deeper friendships that I have in my life weren't predicated on my bringing value, necessarily, other than my love, other than my belief, my value, you know, I want everyone to hear this and I want you to answer because

you're a lot better than me, especially when you become a New York Times best selling author now like you are, right? Or you have a couple bucks, or your person of influence, or you're well known, or you're just one of the more successful people in your church or your community. I think people start thinking they have to do things to become your friend. And in my friendships, I don't, I don't try to earn friends that way. In order I want them to try to earn that with me. My value to is I love you. My value to you is I believe in you. My value to you is that hopefully I'm enjoyable company. Maybe I'm a good person. You can bounce thoughts off of advice or things like that. But it's not predicated.

And I think this is a false belief. Most people carry with them right now. Predicate what I can do for you. What could I do for you people ask me at how can I become friends with you? And I think they think well I could do this for you I watched a video on this on an influencer on social media today The guy said don't ask me what you can do for me Just do something for me and then you got a chance to be my friend. That's not a friendship. That's that's bartering Right, that's bartering to some extent. So how does that work? I mean, I'm doing something because I love you and I believe you to me,

that's more valuable than I can connect you with someone or I know so and so. But don't you think some people feel that way? Like, I've got to offer I've got to offer you something. So you're my friend. That's kind of a, I don't know, goofy, dangerous space, maybe to get friends that way. You know, I think it can work, but it's not authentic. Yes. And whatever we do, that's enough, authentic, burnt us out, right, enough intensity to pleats our energy, like, depletes our mental health, right? So it's not really sustainable. But what I suggest, Ed, and I think what I talk about in the book is that when we're secure with ourselves, when we feel most safe, we are naturally loving.

Like it comes out naturally, like we want to give to people, we want to be generous towards people. And so part of that unlocking authenticity to me, I define authenticity as who you are when you feel safe, who you are when you're not hijacked by defense mechanisms. Then if you're able to get in touch with that, you're naturally going to display all of these behaviors that create connection. Is that what you mean by offering generosity in the book that part of it? Is that the definition of that to some extent? Which part of it, the definition? Well, the part of what I'm offering you is my natural love. It's not offering generosity.

I mean, like here's money or here's my relationship or here's the keys to my Ferrari or whatever it might be, right? Yeah, because I think sometimes that can be misconstrued with people where they think, yeah, I've got to offer somebody something in life. And the other thing too is relationships have dynamics. So if a relationship has started predicated upon me doing things for you, that dynamic now exists until I stop doing things for you.

And when I stop doing things for you, how authentic to use your words is the relationship? Okay, final question. I've enjoyed today so darn much. And I wanted to do a show on what I think is maybe one of the most important topics in life, which is the people around us and having rich and loving relationships in our life. And this fallacy that somehow they all have to be romantic to be the most important ones. I'm, you got me. You've persuaded me on that. When I started watching your work, it persuaded me. And I even know some of you that are in loving romantic relationships, like, oh, I already feel like I'm cheating. If I like my friends as much as I like them, that's how this has sort of become part of

our thinking in our life. One doesn't exclude the other one in our lives. So what about your work? Because you say how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. So what is the science of attachment? I want to get to the root of this before we leave. What is the science of attachment? And in your words before we leave

and take as much time as you want, how does that help us make and keep friends? The science of attachment. Yeah. So as I sort of sifted through the research on friendship, what I found was that our personalities are fundamentally a reflection of our experiences of connection or disconnection, whether I am open, warm, trusting, cynical, all of these things are predicted by whether I've had healthy

connection in the past. But not only that, if I've had that healthy connection, I cultivate a number of traits that contribute to me continuing to connect, right? And that's, if I have securely attached, I've had those healthy relationships, I begin to display these healthy behaviors that allow me to continue to attach to other people. Insecurely attached people, they have it had, oh, did you want to ask me that? No, I'm profoundly agreeing with you right now. Keep going, please.

Yes. Insticurially attached people, they haven't had healthy connection in the past. They carry around this unconscious template for connection. Either that everybody is going to abandon me or sort of betray me. And this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They look out for instances where this is true.

They do not register instances that are counter to this assumption. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy to Ed. Because if I think you're going to abandon me, when the situation is ambiguous, you might be angry, for example. I think you're rejecting me. I reject you. I become cold and withdrawn. And then you reject me because you feel rejected by me, right?

And so if we don't understand our own attachment, which is really our internal template for how people are treating us, which then affects our own behaviors in our relationships, we will continue to think the world is just cruel. People just reject me, people can't be trusted. And if we understand our own attachment, we can be empowered to think

There are behaviors I can change so that I can foster deeper connections with others. I love you This is exactly why no, this is exactly the question I asked you earlier where I think we agree But we word it differently. You're so flipping right So my main male relationship was with my dad and my dad was a drinker when I was young and wouldn't show up. And I started to build these belief systems. You're talking about that idea that, hey, maybe you shouldn't have people around you that are different than you until you're ready because you haven't had these healthy other relationships

you were using the example with you earlier. And you're very right about it because when I had male relationships in my life, I thought, well, they're all going to lie to me. They're all going to eventually leave. They're all going to screw me over. They're all gonna eventually leave. They're all gonna screw me over. They're all gonna do this or that. Because of the one relationship I had with the most important male, that had happened.

And I had to really learn in my relationships, not to project that pattern and dynamic into my new friendships. And early in my life, you're so right, early in my life. I lost a lot of friendships because I would jump to the conclusion that that was happening because it looked like what it used to look like. And so I go, they're doing it. They lied right there.

They're like my dad. Well, no, they're a human and they fibbed a little bit and they're still a really good person who loves me. It doesn't mean all these other things are going to happen. And so that's why your work matters so much because you're exactly right about that. And it's worth going back the last three minutes there and evaluating with Dr. Franco just said, because we do do that in our patterns

and our relationships. We do sort of project into them that way. And I totally agree with that. And that's why I was nodding. I certainly wasn't trying to jump in and interrupt you there because I think that was gold. So I think you are too. I think your work, I just wanna tell you,

thank you for doing the work you do. And thank you for bringing the perspective you bring because I don't think there's another book like this. I don't think there's work like this. And by the way, it educated me on, you know, historically, how these relationships once worked and when it changed and kind of why it changed. And so it was enlightening for me. I feel like I'll be a little bit better friend now. And I think for a lot of people here, they're gonna have to get more friends, keep more friends, and not feel guilty about having them in their life.

And so thank you so much. You're wonderful. Thank you so much, Ed. I think you are like a great model for so many men who want deeper connection. And it's really inspiring to hear you talk about your male friends. Thank you.

You inspire me. And I think everybody, male or female today. And by the way, in any type of relationship you have, even the romantic ones, there's clues in here for your romantic relationships too, not just your platonic ones. And Dr. Franco is nodding, which means I'm right about that. So check another box, I was right about. Okay, you guys, New York Times best-selling book right now,

go get platonic, how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. And I think I made a new one today with Dr. Franco. I'm at Marissa to my friend group. So now you're on these group texts. You're going to be getting, I love you sister text before you know it. I can't wait. They're coming your way. All right. Hey, everybody share today's show with your friends. That's who you should share today's show with. And I want to just tell you all to continue to max out your life. And God bless you all.

Take care. This is The End My Let's Show. you