THE ED MYLETT SHOW - The Sister of Nicole Brown Simpson Speaks Out

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

What would you do if the person you love most was hiding something that could cost them their life?   This conversation has been 32 years in the making for me. Early in my career, I shared an office with someone connected to the Brown family, and I was around them during the trial. I saw how kind and loving that family was, and I watched Denise carry the weight of her sister's murder in front of the entire world. I have three sisters and a daughter. This one is personal.   Denise Brown lost her best friend, her sister Nicole, in one of the most public tragedies in American history. Instead of disappearing, she testified before Congress, fought for the Violence Against Women Act, and has spent three decades working with shelters across this country so other families never feel what hers did.   I asked Denise the hard questions. Why Nicole never told her family. What she would say to her sister today. How she handled the mocking and criticism. And how one sentence from a pastor changed her relationship with God. What came out of it is a masterclass in honoring your family: keep showing up, keep learning, and keep fighting long after everyone else has moved on. Her new book, For My Sister Nicole: Love Shouldn't Hurt, belongs in the hands of anyone with a sister, a daughter, or a friend they would do anything to protect.   Here's what you'll gain from this episode: The silence that protects abusers: Why so many victims never tell the people closest to them, and what Nicole may have been protecting her family from. The wrong things to say: Why your first instinct to help a loved one can push them further away. The TRUST approach: A simple framework for supporting someone who isn't ready to leave. Warning signs that start small: Why you don't need a black eye to be in danger. Faith after tragedy: The words that lifted Denise's anger toward God. Courage under criticism: How Denise stood for her sister while the whole world judged her.   Nicole never told her family because she was trying to protect them. Be the brother, sister, or friend someone feels safe telling. Learn the signs, ask better questions, and never stop showing up for the people you love.   If you or someone you love needs help, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or visit thehotline.org   👉 SUBSCRIBE TO ED'S YOUTUBE CHANNEL NOW 👈 → → → CONNECT WITH ED MYLETT ON SOCIAL MEDIA: ← ← ← ➡️ INSTAGRAM ➡️ FACEBOOK ➡️ LINKEDIN ➡️ X ➡️ WEBSITE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Real growth, fast funding, Cardiff, borrow better. This is the Edmireland show. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So this interview is, I don't know, 30 some odd years in the making. 32. 32 years in the making. And I really wanted to talk to this one for a really, really long time. I was just telling her off camera, ironically, I know her other sister, Tanya,

and I've met her parents several times because I was in business with somebody connected to their family. and I've just admired her from a distance, the way that she's carried herself all these years in the public eye and through some really, really difficult time. So let me tell you about her. You probably know first her sister, who is Nicole Brown Simpson, and you know that she lost her life in a very tragic event. And since that time, I've watched Denise become this just tremendous advocate for women, violence against women. The violence against women act was a big thing that she was involved in. and she's just a stalwart for people that are taking advantage of, and particularly women that are being abused. And so we're going to talk about her sister today.

We're going to talk about a little bit of what happened there. And also just overall, this just epidemic, it seems to be, of violence that's happening towards women in our world today. And she's written a book that is out today, if you're watching this interview, called For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt. Denise Brown, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad you're here.

Why now are you writing this book about your sister and the events that took place? Why is this the time to do it? Well, I think everything runs its course, right? I was not educated about domestic violence. I didn't know anything about it. I was reading her notes and diaries after my sister Dominique found them when my dad and her were up in Los Angeles cleaning out her condo. And so when I read the...

because I was the first one to come out and say no Nicole's not a battered woman. I didn't interview with the New York Times saying no because I did not know what a battered woman was. And I think that it's taken me this long to actually realize that, hey, you know what? You do know what you're talking about now. You do understand domestic violence now.

I mean, I learned something new every single day. And the one horrific thing that I did learn just recently was on a podcast that Oprah Winfrey did with Rachel Louise Snyder that because back in the day, 32 years ago, it was always one in four women. Yeah. Would fall victim to domestic violence. Then it was maybe one in three. Well, just this year, one and two women. Oh, my gosh. So that for me was like, oh my gosh, are we going backwards?

What is happening in our country? And so anyhow, so I just felt like even one in three was too many. One in four is too many. One woman is too many. So I just felt like after 32 years, I felt like finally, Denise, you know you did a lot of wrong things. There's a lot of ways that you could have handled this differently with Nicole. you know so I feel like okay finally I've matured enough I've learned enough to finally write a book to finally talk about domestic violence yeah I'm really glad you did I'm surprised to hear

that you did not think that she was subjected to domestic violence just because there's a story in the book about you know I'll let you tell it and then tell me what your perspective was when you saw but there's this part of the book where like you literally see him grab your sister by the throat and essentially lift her off the ground and put her up against a wall. So when you saw something like that, once you describe what it was and how it happened, and then why was it that even observing that you thought there was some, whether was it normalcy or you thought it was an isolated incident or domestic violence meant it was every day, not once in a while?

What was the reasoning? Well, okay, the incident happened when we went to a restaurant. We, everything was fine. We were drinking our margaritas. It was a Mexican restaurant. and tequila, fire water, okay? Then we go back to the house, Nicole's house, and all of a sudden he's still making drinks

and we're still drinking and having a great time and talking. And he tells Nicole, he goes, go get some food. I said, what, we need any food? I said, we just got finished with a huge Mexican meal. He said, Nicole, go get some food. I said, oh, my God. Of course, I had a few too many drinks already, too. So I just said, God, you just totally take Nicole for granted.

Okay. Well, that was the wrong thing to say because all of a sudden he comes running from behind the bar. He, I thought he was going to grab me. I thought he was going to grab Nicole. I didn't know what was happening. He runs up the stairs. Pictures start flying into the foyer. Glass is breaking everywhere.

He proceeds to run into their bedroom. All of a sudden, clothes start coming down. hangers shoes boom boom and then he runs back down on the stairs he grabs Nicole he throws her he has her by the neck about six inches off the ground and I run over and I am banging on him and all as I see is veins popping out and black eyes and I'm just like stop oh you know and I'm cussing up the storm and hitting them and doing all kinds of stuff. And then all of a sudden he released her and he threw her outside. Nicole fell on her butt, bloodied elbows and just blood everywhere.

And I was just like, I said, you're insane. You're nuts. But for me, it was an isolated incident. I had no idea that there was a cycle of domestic violence. We ended up taking Nicole to a hotel. but a cycle of domestic violence was something that I learned after I had said, after we had found her diaries, after I had said, Nicole is not a battered woman. And I went to the shelter, my mother and I did, we took the diaries and her journals.

And I said, I said, what does this mean? It was a shelter in Laguna Beach, human options. So I spoke with the executive director there, Vivian Cleekak. And I said, Vivian, I said, I don't understand this. So I thought it was an isolated incident until I learned that domestic violence is all about power and control. Domestic violence is about one human being needing to control another human being, the verbal, the emotional, the psychological abuse, the chipping away somebody's self-esteem, you're stupid, you're ugly, you're worthless, nobody's going to want you accept me. that escalates into the physical violence, hitting the kicking, the punching,

throwing up against walls. And then there's the honeymoon phase of, oh, baby, I'm so sorry. It's never going to happen again, the gifts, the flowers, and the excuses. Was OJ that way with you, with Nicole, Denise? Was he apologetic and then would make up for things and then it would just kind of reel her back in?

Is that what you mean by part of the cycle? He would actually do that? Well, what happened was, We're at the hotel the next morning. She says, oh, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go get some things. I need some clothes. I said, okay, I'm going with you.

Sure. She goes, no, no, no. She goes, it's okay. She goes, he's not going to be there anyway. I said, I feel better if I come with you. What am I going to do? I don't know, but I felt more comfortable going. And she said, she goes, no, she goes, don't worry about it.

She goes, he'll be gone. I said, okay. So an hour passes, two hours past. three hours. I finally get on the phone and I call her home phone because we didn't have cell phones at the time, right? So I'm on the phone and I said, Nick, I said, where are you? And she says, she goes, you know what? Everything is okay. He apologized. Wow. And I said, what do you mean? Everything is okay. I said, everything is okay. And that's when I said, oh my God, you got to get out of there. What are you doing? She goes, Denise, honestly, she goes, everything is okay. And I said, okay, she knew what she was doing, I thought. I didn't know she was caught up in a cycle of domestic violence. That's why I am so adamant about speaking and talking about this. And I just want people to understand that, hey, it can happen to anybody.

There are no socioeconomic boundaries. It doesn't matter if you're black or white, rich or poor, gay or lesbian, Democrat or Republican, or what religion you are. And I threw Democrat and Republican in after I went to Congress for the Violence Against Women Act. Because when I was there, all of a sudden, I am hearing,

okay, I testify, everything is okay. We're talking about the Violence Against Women Act. We're talking about victims of domestic violence, what this bill would do, you know, increase funding for shelters, for law enforcement, things like that. And then all of a sudden, something totally different was happening.

And I said, well, what is this? I said, I think I'm in the wrong courtroom. I said, I don't believe that I'm supposed to be here right now. They said, oh, yeah, if you want to get anything passed, bipartisan, which is the only way you can get anything passed in Congress, this, what they were talking about was putting a road someplace in the country. And I said, oh, my God, they are reducing. women to pavement.

Wow. That was my education, my very first education about domestic violence and how Congress works. That's crazy. When you... Let me ask you another part of the education part. Like, teach us about a little bit of interaction with your sister and then how this plays out. Did she ever... And when I ask you this, I'd like you to answer why it's not talked about enough.

So one of the things in prepping for this, I was surprised to read how underreported it is and how press. prevalent it is that the abused is not telling their girlfriend, hey, he hits me, hey, he choked me, hey, he's verbally this or that. Did your sister confide in you, but this was happening regularly? And if not, why is she like the majority? What is it that causes someone not to speak up for themselves? Is their self-esteem so reduced through this cycle that they don't speak up? Are they embarrassed? Is there some thing where they think somehow it's their fault, which is insane? But it could be part of their thinking. What is that? And what did she say to you?

Well, she never told me about any of the abuse. Okay. Wow. I saw it. I took pictures of her. Yeah. I get at a different point in time. So that was like years later.

It never happened every single day. I was living in Laguna. She was living in Los Angeles. What happened behind closed doors? I don't know. But I asked Ron Hardy, a good friend of Nicole. and he did the documentary with us. And I asked Ron, I said, Ron, I said, did Nicole ever say anything to you?

And he said, no. And I said, well, what do you think it is? And he explained it. He says, because I think she was, she didn't want to tell her family and her friends because she did not want to put them into any danger. And I thought, wow. I said, you know what? That makes total sense.

because everything that I've learned, looking back in hindsight, is that they will threaten the children to take them away if you leave me. They will threaten family members because they need to be in control. They will threaten and kill pets. It's happened before. I've heard many stories about that. And a lot of times, the women and children or the women that I've spoken to over the years in shelters, What they have told me is they are always hoping that things are going to get better. And they're always hoping the things will go back to when it was a great relationship.

So there's always that hope. And then there's that shame, the shame of not wanting anyone to know, not your best friend, not a family member. And then the fear, the fear of what am I going to do and where am I going to go? And you have to remember, he was put up on a pedestal. Right. The guy was loved by everyone in this country practically, except the ones that actually really knew him. You know, even the ones that knew him loved him,

put him up on a pedestal. He was the first black man to go into a white country club. Right. And he had all these endorsement deals. He had sort of at that time, it was not normal. he had sort of quote unquote crossed over and was able to be marketable to all different communities. I want to ask you, I'm going to ask you this question because I think sometimes someone who, someone may be listening to this or watching, and they're in this spot right now.

Right. And they haven't come forward. And sometimes your self-esteem is so hurt through a process like this where someone is literally verbally or physically or both beating you down. Right. You might not come forward for yourself. And so I'm going to try a different tactic almost to convince somebody to come forward. And it's this question.

How has this impacted you in your life? Because I'm thinking, I want this person who's going through this to know you're not coming forward actually can even have an impact on your family, on a sibling. In addition to the pain you're going through, you've had to live with this now for 32 years, right, and carried this with you. It's obviously altered the direction of your life significantly as well. I'm just curious, how has it changed your life? I mean, it must have shifted it tremendously. Oh, it completely changed my life. The day that Nicole was murdered was the day that I, well, first of all, I lost my best friend.

I lost my sister in such a horrific way. I told her just the night before when we left, I love you, and I'll see you on the weekend. you know, we're a European family. I mean, we had European upbringing. My mother's German. And so we would always tell each other we love each other. I mean, it was always I love you when we're on the phone. And, you know, whatever we would see each other, it would always be hugs or kisses, you know?

So we were very close in that way. But for me, I lost, okay, we didn't speak English. We were both born in Germany. Wow. That was our little secret language. Yeah. No, we were both born in Germany. He didn't speak any English. My father spoke. He was the American and the family. And he spoke German. And so, you know, that was our, that was our first language. And so we went to the state. I was six. Nicole was just turning five when we went. And, you know, I mean, we went to school. My mom said, you guys learned English in three weeks. But German was still a first language. So we were able to talk. behind people's back in German. You know?

I mean, we had this, oh, my God. You know, because we, of course, we were teenagers too, talking about boys, talking about whatever we wanted to talk about. And we would do that in German. That's crazy. So that nobody could understand it. You know, they couldn't understand us. That's beautiful.

We would have fun. And we had such a great time when we grew up. And our parents never yelled or screamed at each other. We grew up in a very loving. And, you know, it was just a beautiful, beautiful family. Yeah, I was telling you off camera, I just want to say just to acknowledge something. Obviously, I had a early on in my business career, everybody, the guy that I shared in office with was actually dating Denise's sister. Tanya.

And so I actually, during the trial and before it, was around the family a little bit. And they are such a wonderful, your parents are just such wonderful, beautiful people, so kind. and you come from just a great people. And I think knowing how sweet and kind they were, if it could be any worse, made it even worse. And I'm curious, this is a hard question, and I hope you don't mind me asking you the hard stuff, because I want family members or friends that think they have a sister

or a friend going through this or the person going through this to really hear this conversation. But if you could go back, this is such a hard thing to ask, knowing what you know now, what would you have said to Nicole about this dynamic? Because to me, she did everything right. She was away from him by that time, right? She had cut ties as far as I know with him. Two years.

They were divorced. Two years. And so she did eventually do the right things, I guess, is the point, right? She did all the right things. Okay. This is the hardest thing for me to say. Because for me, I truly believe. because people put him up on a pedestal so high that I truly believe that Nicole was put on this earth.

And I believe that she became the face of domestic violence. And that was her destiny. Wow. And that for me is so hard to even say these words because she couldn't get out. She was so trapped in that relationship because nobody helped her, because nobody was there for her. Because even the people that told, okay, the guy that wrote the book, the guy that wrote the book, the forgotten briefcase, Joseph. He talks about Nicole. He talks about how Bruce Jenner, Caitlin Jenner, told her, told her.

told him get away from her because he is so awful be careful and joseph i remember him saying on an interview this could have been me wow and i'm like sitting there going she was so trapped so i don't know if anything because nicole just wanted a relationship she just wanted a good relationship she loved love Nicole I mean once she had her children yes she focused on her kids she focused on her family she wanted that white picket fence so badly

and then when things got bad she had no way out by the way I just want to acknowledge you you're not get out you're honoring her beautiful I'm just watching you because I watched you all those years I know I know And it's really, I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable too because I really believe that's what's going to help so many people today.

I feel like there's a part of me for you that I, I'm so captivated by the story and the fact that you're honoring your sister this way. There's also this part of me as I watch. You're like, you've carried this every day of your life. Like, this doesn't go away for the family members ever. Yeah. And I watch that even on your face now all these years later. And it's so wonderful the way that you're honoring her. Did you know when you found out that this had happened, did you instantly, I know the answer to this, but I want the audience to know.

Because it's an interesting dynamic. I hear you say, you sort of don't name him sometimes, right? But did you know instantly, can you tell everyone why that is? And did you, although at the same time instantly know who did do this? Well, I just remember it was 6.15 in the morning, 6 o'clock, 6.15 in the morning. and I was getting breakfast and all of a sudden I hear this

gut-wrenching scream coming from my parents' bedroom. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, oh my God, I ran back there so fast and I see my mother up on her knees on the phone and I'm like, what is going on? And she says, your sister's dead.

I said, what? I was, I was, I was, grabbed the phone out of my mom's hand and I said, who is this? And he says, Detective Tom Lang. And he said, your sister's been killed. And I said, oh, my God, he finally did it. He finally killed her. And he said, who? And I said, OJ. Simpson. And I knew in my gut, in my heart, in my soul that he killed Nicole. Because everything started flashing back to him having his hands around her neck, him throwing her out of the house. Me taking pictures of Nicole of her scratched and bruises under her arm.

Me seeing a photo of the young Nicole with a black eye and her making the excuse of the makeup artist painted a black eye on me. Isn't it doesn't look real? is that great when he was shooting a movie? So all of these things flashed into my head in a split second and I just said, oh my God, he did it. Wow. He did it. He killed her.

And at the beginning, we thought it was, we thought it was with a gun, you know. And I hung up the phone. I ran back and I grabbed my son because the night before, like I said, we were together. Sydney and Justin wanted to come down to Laguna. And my son and my sister Dominique's son,

they still had school, another week of school. And I told them and I said, you know what? I said, why don't we let these guys finish school? And then you come down on the weekend. So Nicole and the kid said, oh, okay. Otherwise, Nicole would have been there all by herself. She was all by herself. The kids were upstairs in their rooms.

Were they sleeping? I don't know. Did they hear anything? I don't know. I don't know what they heard. I don't know what happened. But I know that she ended up in a fetal position, blood everywhere.

And you saw it on the news the next day, the next morning. And I'm like, oh, my God. This can't be happening. And you know, it's like, all right. Okay. You sit there and you think, God, why don't people just listen? Why does domestic violence have to continue? Because you know what?

The ultimate form of domestic violence is murder. Right. Get out before it even starts. There you go. If somebody tells you, that's why warning signs are so important. Why are you wearing that short skirt? Why are you wearing that color lipstick? What?

You don't want to spend time with me? I know you loved me. You know, all these things just came rushing back. And I just sit there and I just go, oh, my God, it just breaks my heart to think that any family has to go through what we went through. I don't want to have anybody. And, you know, after the verdict came out, I got a phone call from a shelter in Texas.

They had 60 women and children at their shelter. And they called me up and they said, oh, my God, with this verdict of not guilty. Oh, gosh. Yeah. They all before families started packing up their bags. And they said, if he can get away with it, so can our abuser. Can you imagine? No, no. I mean, it was just the most horrific.

thing I never heard. And then I continued speaking and I continued talking and I remember an executive director in Tennessee. She said, Denise, she goes, thank you for continuing because you know what? If you wouldn't have,

a lot more people would lose their lives. And I don't know what would have ever happened with the Violence Against Women Act, but it had ever passed. Bill Clinton zunted into law after Nicole's murder. I went and tested it. testified and we got it from $18 million to $32 million.

And I wasn't the only one to testify. There were other family members there as well. We've got to give them credit. You've done tireless work on this, Denise. I mean, I don't know. Every time I've said this to you, you don't, you're uncomfortable with compliments. But it's incredible what you've done for your sister. One of the things I kind of think sometimes, because you mentioned this that starts with different things.

I wonder, I'd like you to speak to this just for a second too. I wonder if maybe someone's listening to this and even though they are being abused, ironically may not think they are because of comparison. What I mean by that is they go, well, hang on a minute. You know, I've never ended up with a black eye. I don't have a broken rib. You know, it's just this. And so by comparison, it doesn't seem as bad, not knowing this progresses and escalates

and do you feel like that can be the case as well that someone thinks you know you hear the worst of scenarios which is what happened to your sister all the way to death and yet maybe they think uh well my situation's not really that so i'm not in that category so it's not really that bad right and that's what i hear a lot you know he verbally abused me he mentally abused me but he never hit me now there's a story in the book that also talks about a woman who said her last straw was when he when her abuser hit her child oh my gosh that's when she left but it she had been with him for years with the verbal emotional her being beat but once it affected her child that's when she just said that's it i'm done do you Denise do you think that would your advice be to a woman

woman or a man listening to this because I read the stats that you guys said as well it happens to men too but it predominantly much more frequently happens to women but would you would your advice be if you had if you if you if you have a girlfriend right now one time you're out in other words if he puts his hands on you once leave period end of story no second chance no excuses no nothing would it be that would that be your advice to somebody well okay there was a young man that And I was in Brooklyn College speaking, he asked me the same question. He said, what do I do? I know my sister's in an abusive relationship.

I said, you know what? I said, learn everything you can about domestic violence. Learn about the cycle of domestic violence. Because then what you can do is you can set your sister down and you can say, this is what I've learned, this is what I know. And you're talking from knowledge. Okay. You're not just saying, oh, you guys.

got to get out of that relationship like I did. You got to leave that son of a bitch. You know, you got to get out of this relationship. It's not good, you know, it's not healthy. It's not good. How can you stand being with this guy? You know, I said all the wrong things. So educating this young man and telling him to get educated, to learn about the cycle of

domestic violence, and then sitting her sister down. And I told him, I said, you're going to get a lot of, denial. A lot of denial. No, no, no, that's not happening to me. But what you've done is you've opened up that door to conversation because it usually takes seven to ten times for a victim of domestic violence to leave the situation. Okay. Now my advice, what I know today and what is happening in our communities of now one and two fall victim to domestic violence, I would say learn about the warning signs learn about

you know the control aspect of domestic violence educate yourself because then you will know the right things to say you won't say the wrong things so for me yes if he puts his hands on you absolutely you got to

leave because it will escalate to further it will become more frequent it will continue happening even though he says, I'm sorry it'll never happen again? Don't believe it, because it will happen again. I want to make sure I say one thing, too. I'm not suggesting that you have to wait for the one time either.

What I'm just saying is, because by the way, you've eloquently explained the verbal part, the isolation part, the putting you down, the trying to control you. So I'm not, we'll be very clear, everybody, you don't have to wait for that moment. What I'm saying is that is a definitive deal breaker when something like that happens. that's a clear sign because it does escalate. And by the way, the stats that you sent us, it ends up that almost three quarters of these situations end up at some point in some sort of life-threatening strangulation situation at one point in the relationship.

So that's how much this stuff can actually progress. Can I ask you something about the incident? Because I wanted to make sure the majority of the conversation stuck to the topic in the book, but also your sister losing her life is obviously a part of the book. And I just want to ask you, opinion because you said earlier you don't know what happened yet you did know that he was the one who did it in my gut in your gut in your gut in my soul in my heart right and then all the evidence prove that to be true let's just be real so but i had somebody on recently that uh i've never had any

i try to not have any what i'd call like wing nut stuff you know what i mean like just out there stuff and i don't do a lot of uh topics that are sort of way out there this topic is fascinating to me and important to me because I was around your family during that time and they were such lovely, beautiful people. And I have three sisters and I have a daughter. And so I want this message out there. But I wanted, if you'd indulge me on one question, I did have somebody on who did a lot of research. And I'm just curious of your opinion. Maybe you say definitely not or I don't know. He had a theory that OJ also had a severe drug problem and that potentially there was some bad dudes in his and that potentially he might have had some help that night with destroying these two precious lives.

Do you have any theory? Are you open to the idea that that could have been the case? Or do you believe it was just him standing there with Ron and your sister? Well, I believe that it was him. Absolutely. Do I believe that there was somebody else there? If you would have seen him when he had Nicole by the throat and seen his rage and anger, you would sit there and go, no, he's capable of doing both. He knocks the coal out. Then he goes

after Ron. He does not need anybody else. That is what I believe. Great. I just want to ask you. Well, I know what you're talking about because there's all kinds of conspiracies out there. Right. This new, new movie on Netflix with another one coming out again, I think at the end of the year. There's like all these conspiracies now. You know, with our documentary, I just want to clarify one thing. Sure. With our documentary, people always said, well, why would you do it now when he's dead? And I just, I sit there and I have to look at them and I say, because making a documentary does not happen overnight.

Making a documentary, ours took a year and a half to make. Okay? you were still alive. My book, I have been working, and this is the real one, not the one that you have. Or my sister, Nicole. I at least have the cover in front of me, everybody, if you listen to audio. Yeah, and so anyway, so love what they did. But for the documentary, for the book, it takes time.

This was in the works for three years. It has morphed into a domestic violence. violence book. It was more of a memoir when I first started out. And then, you know, as we continued writing with Julie McCarron, who's the writer that helped me, because I'm not a writer, but she was wonderful because we had changed directions. And when it became a domestic violence book, I thought, you know, this I am hoping is going to give people that hope. give people the you know the wherewithal the resources of getting the help that they need of educating yourself and so anyway so i'm really glad that it turned into a domestic pilot so am i and also the

point you made earlier is really profound because i think sometimes and then i'm going to ask you a question about criticism because it's unbelievable to me that what you've dealt with in your life but you know i i uh i you know the point you made earlier about about maybe not going in so direct of you need to get out of here. He's doing this to you. But actually having them educated is such a profound approach. And it sounds right to me because you're not creating resistance or you're not isolating that person or making them defend the person.

You can almost make a martyr or hero out of the abuser if you go the way that sometimes people go, which is just super aggressive. I wanted to ask you, though, about one of the things that I just could not get over while this was happening. So it's pretty simple in life. Sometimes there's a perpetrator and then there's a victim. And that's it. And that's what it is.

Your sister was the victim. So is Ron. And so were your families. And I remember particularly you, if I can be candid, you received unbelievable scrutiny, criticism, even some mocking over the years. And it's just amazing to me because there's a lot of people listening to this. They're going through something in their life.

Maybe they want to make a dream come true. maybe they want to go through something, go through something. And the truth is one of the big reasons they don't do it, they're afraid to be criticized. They're afraid to stick their neck out there. They're afraid to speak up and stand for something, whether that be a cause or a principle or speak their mind or what you're doing for your sister or what you did during the trial. And you were constantly being judged for how you responded to your sister being murdered. So I just look at it like, if you can be judged, then anybody can be judged because. our culture is so just crazy.

How have you dealt with that? It must have shocked you the first time that you were the one being criticized by how you responded. Okay, for me, okay, years ago, when I was 18 years old, I was a model, okay? And when you take pictures, the agent or whoever is like looking at them going, oh my god you got a crooked smile there that's no good oh my god your ears sticking out there oh my god this oh you know they're very picky and very whatever my mother she told me she says Denise do not take those things personally because they want a particular look okay so her

having said that was actually the best thing that could have happened to me because I remember I don't know if it was the LA Times or what it was. I had an inch of gray hair. And I remember them going after me because I had an inch of gray hair. Well, hello, people. Today I'm all gray. So let it go. I don't care.

But I think it was my mother who said, you're not going to please everybody. You're not going to be liked by everybody. So you have to believe in what you're doing at all times. And her being a very spiritual woman and just a very loving mother. And I knew that whatever she said, she didn't meet it hurtfully. She didn't mean it mean. But I took that advice and I was able to actually deal with all the people that said really nasty things about me.

Good for you. I said crying up on the sand, lying up on the sand, you know, like all of these things. And my response to that is. I don't wish my worst enemy to have to go through a loss so horrific like we had to and so public. You know, even our local stores, they were wonderful. They took all the tabloid magazines and turned them around so that the kids, so we could take the kids shopping. So we as there, as her family, would not have to see all the ugly stuff that was written about her. We had a great community down in Lucina.

Yeah. We could go to Target. They said, call us before you come. We'll get rid of all the magazines. Our Gelsons, our pavilions, our, everybody was so nice, so good. As the time went on, you know, I mean, helicopters would fly over the beach. Now, my sister Dominique, what she would do is she would make a game out of it because she had the four kids. Sydney, Justin, Sean, my son and her son, Aaron.

And she said, they took towels, put them over their head, and pretend they were superheroes running from God knows what, because there was a helicopter flying over. Well, neighbors didn't care for that too much. You know, I mean, it was their summer too. And so, yeah, it was really disruptive. People could be nasty. People had, we had signs on the front of our community.

OJ for president. I mean, really fucked up stuff. Excuse my language. No, I like it. You're tough, Denise. Yeah, you're tough. It was so awful. Yeah.

No, I love that. We're leaving that in, by the way, you guys. I want to leave that in. No, the whole, I've always from a distance. When I opened the show and I said, I really wanted to talk to this woman, it was because of your strength. And I'm not saying that to placate you or be nice or you're on the show. You're strong.

I watch you. You were strong. You were really the front person for the family. You have been most of the time. That's not the takeaway from. anybody else in your family, they're all done their part. But you really are the person who's taken most of the arrows. You're the one, you're the one who stood up. And I just want, I just think everybody listening to this is just like, this is what courage looks like. This is what

toughness looks like. This is what loving your sister looks like. It's a big deal. And it's like, it's why, you know, frankly, everybody, she was supposed to be with us here today. And she's actually very sick today. And she's still doing the show, not feeling really well. And I'm grateful for that. I want to give a couple more gifts of your content, though. There's something in there and if you don't if you can't pull it out that's okay but there's this thing about for a woman who is not that's a victim but they're not leaving the relationship it's like the trust format can you explain that okay can you explain that i think it's really important that we don't leave the interview without that being in here i love this and trust the acronym

the t stands for take the time to listen are respect the victim's values and choices you understand how difficult it is to offer and offer compassion and hope S supports the victim's decisions T tell the victim help is available from you and others very good

and this is this I think is so important and that goes back to education education, awareness of what's going on around you. And for me, I just don't want to have another Nicole. I don't want to see another Nicole. I know that the shelters are full.

I do know, and this is really, really sad that shelters are closing their doors because they are not getting the funding that they need from our government. Now tell me that, for me that is such a horrific

horrific thing because where are these women going to go? Where are they going to take their children back to their abusers? What? So they can eventually be murdered? I mean, come on people. Shelters are there to protect, to help. They are there for victims. God, bring the sanity back to humanity

people. Yeah, that's not a left or right issue. That's not it's helping it's helping humanity. Of course. It's being there for individual. It's helping the most vulnerable. It's helping the most vulnerable. Absolutely. I'm wondering by the way, I'm loving this to say you know and I'm really enjoying the conversation. We can keep talking as long as I have a voice. I appreciate that. I um this is a I bet you're not going to get asked this one but I'm this is personal like super personal. and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But I think about this when I, this is just like one of the weird thoughts I had as somebody watching your family go through this.

And I'm wondering, having a sister whose life was taken so suddenly and violently and cruel, like in a cruel, just horrendous fashion, did it affect your faith beliefs? And I don't want you to be personal about your faith. But I wonder, like, what do you believe? Will you see Nicole again someday? Do you ever think about that? And how did it affect you in terms of, because I think it might not be that difficult for somebody to go,

God, how would you let this happen to our family and my beautiful sister and be angry or doubt? I'm wondering how it affected that. It happened to me. And my mother, she looked at me and she said, Denise, you are so angry. She brought a pastor to the house. Okay, we're Catholic. And I'm okay with that, you know.

That's just the way I was raised, but more spiritual than anything. My mother, she came to me, she said, Denise, you're so angry. So the pastor was there. We were sitting in the living room. And she just looked at me and she goes, I am looking at you. And I just see so much rage, so much anger. And then the pastor spoke. he said Denise he goes

this is not because I was very angry with God very because I thought how could you let such a beautiful wonderful kind-hearted mother of two be murdered I was so angry

so anyway he told me he said Denise this is not God's doing this is the evil of man when he said that it just lifted off my shoulders and I was like oh my god wow and I was angry god anymore I understood that and it happened so fast but yeah no I was really really really angry but after that yeah no after that I was okay I was okay with God again I was okay with all of it

not losing my sister I wasn't okay with sure but that's when I feel like okay I got the strength that I needed to go after any guy that lays a hand on any woman and I just had I mean I still had rage I still had the anger mostly rage probably um that a girlfriend of mine in New York she said after she heard about Nicole's murder she said she go to her husband she says oh my god there's going to be another murder because I had been drinking I'm an alcoholic also so I stopped drinking six months before Nicole was murdered oh my gosh and my whole thing she said she didn't know this because I didn't talk to her in six months and she said there's going to be another murder And when we finally spoke, I told her, I said, no, I said, I stopped drinking.

And the sheriff's department came over and picked up my father's guns. Legal, by the way. Meaning she thought you were going to go murder somebody. I was going to go. You were that angry. Okay. I get it now. There was so much rage that she said, oh, my God, she's going to go and kill him.

Wow. And yeah, so anyway, I thought that was, I was like, no. This is such a great conversation. Like this is what I was hoping this was going to be, that we would learn about you, learn about domestic violence, learn a little bit more insights about your sister and these dynamics. And I just want to tell you, I just think you're doing a tremendous job and always have of honoring your sister. And she's, I imagine she's unbelievably proud of. you. And it's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, it really is. I really do hope so. And I'm never going to

stop, Ed. Yeah, I know it. I know. I can't talk anymore. Right. Even today, she showed up for this, you guys. Let me ask you one last thing. I want to make sure that people have any final thought you have of something I didn't ask you or any where place organization you want to promote or anything like that or a thought you might have for anybody listening to this who has family that might be going through something like this or is personally going through this right now. Well, oh, God, those are a lot of questions, Dad. Yeah, that's why I'm giving you the full run. You get time.

Well, you know, I think that get to know your local shelter and your community. Okay. Educate yourself, go volunteer, go see what they're all about. They need help. They actually, they really need help. I work a lot with a shelter here in Naples, Florida. and I am on the board of trustees here with a shelter for abused women and children. I work with many shelters all across the country.

The shelter that educated me was Human Options in Laguna Beach. And they were, they're a wonderful organization. The Wings Organization in Chicago, fabulous Laurel House and Pennsylvania. A fabulous organization. I got Ruth's house in, you know, Washington, D.C. I don't know. There's just so many that I can't even name them all.

But there are a lot of resources in the book, a lot of organizations that I talk about. But I want one thing to be remembered when they're reading this book. This is looking back in hindsight. This is thinking and not knowing anything about domestic violence. This is thinking that these incidences that I'm talking about, isolated incident. And not that I saw things happening every single day. I didn't.

And knowing that you can be caught up in a cycle of violence. And when someone is a narcissist and wants control of everything that you do. And see, when I first got into this after Nicole's murder, I was looking at the cycle of violence. everything that Nicole was not. Nicole was not financially abused. Nicole was not isolated from her family. I truly believe that there could have been threats to our family.

That's why she was never isolated from us because he knew what a tight-knit family we were. So I just want people to understand when they're reading it that these things were looking back. in high sight and not knowing anything. So educate yourself. Learn about domestic violence. Learn about the warning signs. Educate yourself and others. By the way, I think the fastest way to do that and the best way to do it, I'm not saying it's just to move books. I actually really believe if you go get for my sister Nicole by Denise Brown, that's one of the best first steps that you could make. And even potentially giving this book to somebody, so they could educate themselves, it might be going through this situation too, because all the things that I've read from the book,

they're heart wrenching, but they're very educational, they're very enlightening. What you just said there at the end, don't be looking for what it's not, you know, because not all of these things have to check every box to constitute an abusive situation. So, Denise, this was awesome. You crushed it today. Oh, thank you. Well, I really appreciate it. I mean, I just want people to not go through something that we went through.

I mean, we've got to stop this, especially now that statistics. or one and two. Gosh, it's crazy. In some areas of our country. Shouldn't we be a little bit more educated? Shouldn't we care for humanity a little bit more? Yes, we should. Yes.

That's why I'm so glad we did this today. I mean, really, everybody. Give Denise some love you guys by, you know, social, but also by getting the book. And I think you're honoring all people that are going through some sort of domestic violence or abuse by reading the book. you're honoring everybody by doing it and you all grow and learn more by reading it it's it's not lightweight it's heavy there's great stuff in there so Denise thank you so much for today I enjoyed it it exceeded my expectations well I really appreciate you thank you thank you all right everybody

god bless you and by the way share this episode if there's one that needs to be shared it's today's everybody all right god bless you all max out your life this is the admiral show